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Pullman on Audio: Our Verdict! · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and
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  today I am delighted to be able to welcome back Andrew Head who is a wonderful writer
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  from Australia who I met through one of our courses but Andrew is also blind so he is
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  my go-to person to find out about audiobooks of which he is a massive consumer. Though
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  Andrew I'm also a massive consumer so I'm sort of nipping at your heels of my enthusiasm
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  for that format. So welcome. Andrew we have been saving this
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  arc so you've listened to quite a few things and we're going to start with your reaction
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  to what you've listened to and the Philip Pullman dark materials trilogy and the one
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  that you have listened to is the BBC audio from 2005 which has Philip Pullman himself
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  as a narrator with other actors taking parts in the story. Tell us about what this is
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  like to listen to and what you got from it. Well it's it's quite different. It's
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  sort of a halfway you know you have with this particular format it's a bit of a combination
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  of most audiobooks are narrated by one one person with doing voices but then they've
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  kind of with this one because Philip Pullman is narrating it and then every time the
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  characters turn to speak it's voiced by a different actor for each character. So it's
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  sort of a cross between you know a regular audiobook and a dramatization and I thought
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  it was it was unique because there doesn't seem to be too many of them around in my experience
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  and I quite liked it. I felt it brought a story to life a little bit in a different
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  way because you had yeah each character had a distinct voice that wasn't the narrators.
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  And I guess it helps the the fact that you've got the author reading the book in yes
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  aren't actors but we probably decent narrators of our own work in when it's a third person
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  narrative. So how did you find hearing Philip Pullman's own version of his words? Did
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  that bring something extra to it? Oh yeah yeah it's always exciting when an author reads
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  their own work and if there was anything any names that are being a fantasy a bit different
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  to regular names of people and places you got how they also intended them to be pronounced
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  which is always nice. I mean quite often from what I've heard and I imagine you know
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  that the narrator would ask the author for pronunciations and you know the author sends
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  in written or audio of how they want things to be pronounced but yeah it was it was really
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  nice that you know the author himself got to was reading it and you could hear how everything
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  should be pronounced properly. Mind you I've just had what happens is the publisher sends
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  you a sort of list of it's like a template document and it says are there accents that
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  we should you know that the narrator needs to be aware of or are there any special pronunciations
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  just like you said and and I've just been listening to the audiobook of one of my re-regency
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  crime stories called the Wordsworth the Key and he's such in the Lake District and there's
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  something which I didn't think to tell them which I've just noticed I think I'm maybe the only
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  person. A couple of people in the Lake District will recognise one of the mistakes she also says
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  there's a poet from the 18th century called Cooper but actually it's spelled C-O-W-P-E-R so lots
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  of people call him Cowper but actually he's a Cooper and I thought oh I should have put it
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  in a template document I should have said but I just didn't think there's such tiny tiny details
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  so we can all get it wrong you know but most people it will just they won't notice and it won't
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  matter. So how do they do the transition? So I'm thinking about reading a piece of text so if
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  Philip Paulman cues a Lyra speech does he also add the she said or is that just understood?
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  Is it like yeah edited for this medium? No he he does he does a straight read. Oh okay that's
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  fascinating okay so we were talking about how Philip Paulman offers there's three different ways
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  of approaching Philip Paulman on audio one is this one your one which is like in the middle the
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  2005 one then we've got sort of going on full on dramatisation you've got a BBC radio dramatisation
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  which appears on audible from 2021 which will be a like a stage version and it will be abridged
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  and very different more like listening to a radio play or that's what you're doing you're
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  listening to a radio play yeah but you also going back to a more traditional format you've got
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  straightforward readings and the one that is reading the Northern Lights at the moment is
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  Ruth Wilson who is the actress who played Mrs Cooper Coulter sorry Freudian's this is Coulter
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  in the BBC serial so she's transferred from that to read the book so when you've got the choice
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  Andrew what do you get from each of those different as apart as a blind or partially sighted
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  person what do the three different versions of books offer you and now have you got a preference
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  of which one you go to that's a bit of a pose then because I while you're thinking I will say
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  personally I don't like sort of semi dramatized adaptations I'd be interested to see if the BBC
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  did a better job of it but I've seen recently there's a trend because of I don't know if it's
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  AI voices or something but there is a trend now for a book that I have purchased with the
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  traditional narrator to be sort of try to be sold to me again with people taking voices and I
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  thought oh what's this like is it much better it's not abridged it sounds like what you would
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  describe being but I've found I really hated the the sort of folly artist low level element of
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  dramatization that goes on and other voices coming in so typically it would be so and so I was running
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  to you know arrest the bad guy or whatever it is and you hear footsteps in the background
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  somebody rang on the doorbell ding dong and I think no I can imagine it you know get out of my
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  it I wanted it simplified just with the voice reading it to me because that's how it was written
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  and so I would prefer either the book or the stage play the
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  rigid plate rather than the middle swayed which is what you were listening to but that's
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  how about you hmm well the the Philip Pullman with the full cast narration there's no sound
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  effects okay the background yeah sounds better yeah yeah so it's it's Philip Pullman and the
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  full cast but there is there's music sort of at the beginning and the end and you know with each
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  chapter but there's no ongoing sound effects I've not heard too many of those with sound effects in
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  the background books you're describing except with kids books when I was listening to the books
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  when I was a kid and I didn't mind it when I was a kid I thought that you know it added some
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  depth but I can understand as well you know yes we have our imagination and I can understand from
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  your perspective that would you'd feel that that would be you know taken away a bit we can't
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  use our imagination as much because the sounds are there but I wouldn't be opposed if I heard
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  another book like that okay well that's what we should do while we compare yeah yeah we should yeah
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  yeah yeah I mean so we've been talking about the Philip Pullman should we also consider here I don't
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  know if you've done any watching of the films or the TV series series with audio description have
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  you tried that at all I watched the films years ago the I think they called it the golden
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  compass that was anyone that was released and lit as far as I know the only thing I remember is
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  Ian McKellan did a brilliant job as one of the characters the bear you're a cabernison
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  and the TV show well that's that's why I reread his dark materials recently because my sister
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  had been watching the TV show you know she really enjoyed it and especially being a
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  vet nurse and having dogs pets and just loving animals I think she was really drawn to the
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  you know the idea in the book that the people in a lot of the characters have demons they call
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  them which are human sorry which are souls that are part of them not sure if I'm explaining that
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  very well but yeah no I might so I think yeah my sister really liked that aspect and I reread
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  the the books first to remind myself of the story and then intended to watch the TV show
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  because I wanted to see how well they did the books justice and but I haven't I have I found
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  it is audio described but I haven't got ran to watching it yet okay well that's so that
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  that is another you know keen on maximum accessibility so we've got let's go down our pecking order
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  we've got films and TV series audio described we've got radio plays which are staged which I
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  think it sounds quite that's a quite good one as well because that's obviously done with the
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  mind to just a our all experience then we've got your halfway house where you get the value seems
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  to me in that one as you've got Philip Pullman's voice and it's not too intrusive and then you've
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  got straightforward reading by an excellent actress so I think you've got lots of good choices
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  so that's accessing Philip Pullman what about the actual content of the books itself
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  because you know did you enjoy when you came came back to it no I this was a reminder I'd read it
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  as a as a child quite a few times okay years ago so coming back now what did you think of the
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  story are you did you enjoy it did you think that it worked to bore up on a second reading
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  yes there's um there's many many aspects of the story I like and this might I might say you know
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  some some people won't agree with me and there's probably people that when I say what I'm going
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  to say people listening will probably shout at me and go yeah yeah um from the comfort of their
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  homes or whatever they're listening but yeah as it as a child I really enjoyed it and then as
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  I got a bit older into a teenager and spoiler alert for anyone that hasn't read it there's
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  probably going to be some spoilers but as I became a teenager and got deeper into my Christian faith
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  and I was rereading the series and there's one part where as a child you don't really realize
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  the some aspects but in the third book there's a conversation between two characters I know three
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  characters and one of them is talking about the the enemy in the story is is God basically and one
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  of them's talking about their they stopped believing in God and it was at that point that I
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  you know I just didn't didn't like the story as much and as a kid you know when you as a 10-11
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  year old I guess a lot of things go over your head but yeah when I was sort of 14-15 rereading it
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  and in the first two books I think it's a lot less clear that the enemy is God and then in the
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  the third book it's yeah that during that conversation it suddenly all comes together and it's oh
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  okay now you know we're all it titled to our own opinions and views etc but I didn't think it was
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  appropriate in a kid's book for the enemy to be God maybe it's encouraging well my thoughts back
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  then was when I first heard it as a teenager when realized was you know maybe it's encouraging
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  children to stop being Christians or turn away from God or whatever maybe that isn't the point
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  but that's how I saw it back then after hearing you know doing some research and sort of hearing
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  that you know Philip Pullman wanted to dig up CS Lewis's corpse and throw stones at it and at him
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  I was like oh well doesn't seem like a very nice chat unfortunately so I think well look okay
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  it's an interesting concept to have God as the enemy and I enjoyed the reread the recent reread
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  you know enjoyed the characters the settings the overall story did the enemy have to be God though
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  I think it would have been a lot better if the enemy wasn't God and if it was if they yeah
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  okay so can I come in there just because all that lives in my city and he's a charming man
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  he's really lovely I've come with him for trying to say in libraries so rest assured
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  that was a rhetorical flourish and and also I I think that he would probably say that he feels
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  uncomfortable and alienated by reading fantasies that are informed by a strong faith the other way
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  so he he doesn't you know he doesn't like Narnia for example so yes each to their own it's
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  perfectly permissible to have a world in which God is the enemy that's that's fine and there is
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  no censorship if people want that who are humanists or atheists whatever that is absolutely fine
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  you know I think we shouldn't you can say I can imagine a version of this book which didn't alienate
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  me which I would have enjoyed and that's that's great I would say yeah it from a sort of literary
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  critic point of view actually I think his problem is that the charm runs out so it's really charming
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  first but even though it's difficult and really really problem you know the children scary stuff
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  it's sort of child catcher stuff isn't it like in the sketch yeah it's got that element of horror
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  in it but it's still managing charming largely powered by the idea of the demon as you said yeah
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  the second one you've got this wonderful new character who comes in who adds his own and he's our
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  real world connection our world connection I think the problem of the third one which is maybe why
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  you felt really unpersuaded by it and why'd by it I think it gets bit too much like I have a
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  I want to express my annoyance with literature up to this point which has you know Milton and
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  CS Lewis and everybody who's had God and God is actually in my view if there is a God he's a monster
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  you know that that's all yet even Fry version as well and I think because that message is very
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  foregrounded it sits alongside a whole kind of journey into the underworld and you end up thinking
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  well what is the theology and there's also a prophecy so the which is filled so you think well
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  what is the overarching universe behind this and I was left feeling a bit I didn't know where I
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  was I wasn't convinced by the fantasy I'd lost faith in the fantasy by the time you got three
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  whereas I love book one really two book three for me is didn't I did like Mary Malone I like that
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  character but I did I found I found the it almost is a shame he felt he had to fight that battle with
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  God because it was the weaker part of it he could have got messages across in other ways I felt
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  so I'm with him but for a different reason more of a sort of craft one but I do think
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  suit the underlying it's perfectly absolutely fine to go and write your fantasy from a atheistic
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  viewpoint or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jewish or whatever it is that is your thing perfectly fine
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  but just make sure you do it well I suppose is yes yes I think I know I'm coming across very bias
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  yeah and I acknowledge that but yeah no I think I I hope I put across that it if that's what he
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  wanted to do that was all right but it you know I yeah my view is that that's why I didn't like it
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  yeah yeah so that's the sort of we recognize that's a subjective taste I would just like to also
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  while we're talking about Philip Pullman before we move on to other audiobooks just mentioned
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  that of course he's been working on the Book of Dust series which is his latest one and I think
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  there's about to be the third in the series come out pretty much okay now that's read by Martin
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  Sheen that's Martin Sheen is an excellent actor very good voice I would say that I enjoyed listening
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  to the first of the the bell survives the first of them partly because it's set in my city and
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  my city is flooded that's fun to think about what that would mean but I wasn't gripped
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  there once I wasn't the characters so you've got baby Lyra and a boy who's rescuing her
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  and a sort of barmaid servant character who I didn't warm to and there was a deliberate attempt to
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  make the nuns at the convert where Lyra has been raised nice but they were also dim
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  so so going from the sort of let's take on religion this is a sort of it's my slightly more
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  conciliatory but they're also stupid it was also
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  but anyway there you go um but it wasn't that wasn't why I just thought it was funny
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  rather than I found the bit of journey in it um a bit too long and didn't quite hold my attention
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  so I need to go back and actually read the the others in the series because um I need to give
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  him another chance so I would say that my favourite Philip Pullman books are the first one
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  in the Northern Lights series and the far workmaker's daughter so I do love his writing when it hits
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  the spotlight but there are some places in his writing which are misses which maybe to do with
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  that you know I don't share his face because it is a kind of faith he has oh yeah yeah
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  so that I feel a bit outside of that but there is an audience for that so you know fine
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  so sometimes I find technically I don't quite go with him on some of his choices
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  so anyway um but Martin Sheen is a good narrator so not a bad way of
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  accessing those books I would recommend it if you feel like giving it a go Andrew I'd recommend it
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  okay well that that wasn't where I was the I did see on audible there's also a sequel book
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  to his dark materials about Lyra and Panta Lyme and I haven't read it so I'm not sure if I
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  wouldn't I'm not sure if I will it might appeal though because it is a short story I think or a
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  novella and it is about the demon relationship which I think is the nicest the classiest thing
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  in in Philip Pullman have you have you read that one uh have I I can't remember it if I have
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  so I should need to reread it uh I had but I'm glad you I'm glad you have met Philip Pullman
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  and I love him and and we're and we're able to provide that other perspective um the other
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  super cool thing about Philip Pullman just I am his fan club even if I don't yeah um is I he
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  taught me a lot about how to read aloud from your own work because I was standing behind him
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  and he was reading a bit from the beginning of the Northern Lights that this saved the library's
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  event and I noticed that he had crossed out various filler words to make a more dramatic reading
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  and I thought gosh that's such a good idea you don't have to read every single word that's in the
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  published book you just read this excerpt you reread it for reading aloud okay that's such a good
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  tip so I'm really grateful to him um and underlining that I admire him the things that I've been
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  sort of picking at are just being a critic it's not anything you know and you press or anything
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  like that I think is great and I think he uh if if I was ever um invited to if I was if I was ever
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  in an opportunity to meet him I certainly having especially having read his books even though I have
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  met like and dislike of them I certainly wouldn't turn the opportunity down to meet him
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  yeah and I think yeah I think there is also a kind of virulent question out there who will
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  attack him for putting his views in his book so he does feel under under assault and as we see
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  in current times we need to agree it's a great need to disagree I've always got that wrong
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  we need to disagree agreeably so yeah don't like his theology you think okay I don't like your
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  theology but what's good about your story and that's that's that's my attitude to anyone I
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  oh I should actually try to have anyone who I disagree with the rich there of course yeah loads of
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  people but I don't don't set yourself up as someone who should tell them how they should think
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  because that's not your job you just say oh well that's interesting I feel on the outside of that
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  world view uh I'm on the outside of say like Stephen Fry's world view yeah um but I'm interested in
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  what you've got to say because it's I learn more by listening to different views so that's where
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  I go with Philip Pullman because he's a great storyteller so thank you very much Andrew for
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  being with us to discuss the audio versions of Philip Pullman and I look very much to talking to you
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  next about Bargrafis of Tolkien Lewis and the Inklings thank you for being with us
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  thank you Julie I look forward to continuing to discuss with you as well
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