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Ep. 7: The Friendship Behind “Episodes” · Wellness in Today's World

0:19
Hello, I'm Debra Kawahara.
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Thank you for joining me today.
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If you're looking for an audiobook that dives deep into friendship, mental health, and the raw edges of healing, "Episodes: The True Story of Two Friends & One Diagnosis" by Mara
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Altman
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and Kat Alexander, is a powerful listen.
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Told in their own voices, this Audible Original chronicles Kat's experience with a sudden bipolar disorder triggered by IVF treatments, and Mara's unwavering support of her best
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friend.
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The story unfolds with honesty, humor, and tenderness, from manic episodes to hospitalizations,
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to a dramatic rescue in Mexico.
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It's not just about crisis, it's about the resilience of love and connection and the radical act of showing up.
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Welcome Kat and Mara, let's get started.
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I wanna start off with how you came up with the concept of "Episodes" and how it took shape.
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Yeah.
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I'll start.
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Is that cool?
1:31
Yeah.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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So, well, Thanks for that awesome introduction.
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It feels like you really got the story, which feels good.
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So I'm a writer, journalist, and when all this happened, it kind of took over both of our lives.
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After, and as we were healing from it, you know, I'm, I was looking for my next project and I had all these ideas;
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stuff about motherhood and bodies and...
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I'd go on walks and like all that I could think about is what had happened to us.
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I'd like see flashes of it and try to process it, understand it.
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I couldn't believe the impacts that this disorder could have on family, on friends, how hard it was to get help.
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And it just seemed like such an important thing to talk about and to write about.
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And so I came up with the idea of writing about it, but it didn't feel like it was my story to tell.
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If anything, it was Kat's story and maybe it was our story if she allowed me to be part of it.
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So I brought the idea to her.
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You want to take it from there?
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Mara had this idea to write it down and capture it and pitch it.
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At first I was very hesitant because it would be a big deal to put my story out there and our story out there.
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I said I really need some time to think about it because I knew if I said yes that I would want to commit and follow through and knew it would involve reliving
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some of the worst parts of bipolar developing.
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But yeah, I thought about it and I took my time and I decided that yes, I wanted to go on this journey.
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And we really focused on the creation and the telling of our story and not this end product of trying to save the world or, you know, anything beyond
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that.
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And I really viewed it as this is going to be my tool for healing and for processing, and I'm writing it for myself.
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And then from there, you know, we took baby steps then we put it out to the world.
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And though Kat has never like published a book before this, she's always been a writer and written beautiful work and had the desire to write her story.
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What a wonderful gift that you're sharing because I think a lot of people, especially with the disorder, are probably, you know, feeling like your voice is saying they're not alone,
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in terms of their story.
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I know you write, but you decided to do an audiobook
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and use both of your voices and use some recordings.
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How did you come to that decision not to do like a written book, but to do an audiobook?
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It kind of just, I mean, it felt right.
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Using the audio clips, I think, were a really powerful way of bringing people, listeners, into the moment and really feeling what was happening.
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It's just like another layer of the story.
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Would we be open to it being a book as well?
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Maybe.
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But it worked really well, I think, with the perspective shifts to hear both of our voices.
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The other thing I've really found is, whenever consuming content that has to do with trauma and heavy material, I have found that audiobooks work better for me.
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I can go on a walk and listen to them as opposed to sitting and trying to focus on heavy content and pulling my hair out.
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So for me, I think it's more therapeutic, too, to hear our voices and really
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personalize the story as opposed to more maybe abstract page.
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Yeah, I have to say the video clips really do add that power and the emotional...
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To hear an actual...
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like where you were at at certain times in this journey in real time.
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So I want to ask you, you know, 'cause I know you had to kind of revisit and recount
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these deeply personal experiences.
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So I wanted to ask the both of you, how was that process for you?
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Like emotionally and
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to actually go back through this trajectory of the bipolar diagnosis and the different events that occurred, fluctuation of things.
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How was that for the both of you to do?
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Well, Mara really gave the gift of creating the scaffolding for the piece.
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She had an outline in mind and would give me prompts to work on to write.
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Sometimes I had difficulty writing.
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Some of the more heavy content, like some of the childhood trauma stuff, it happened, you know, when I was laying on the bed in her office and we would audio record sometimes, you
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know what I was saying.
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And she'd be typing vigorously.
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I mean, that was huge because I...
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I know if I had tried to write this by myself I couldn't do it.
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It was, you know, too...
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There's a couple pieces.
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Number one, the content's really heavy and it's difficult to revisit.
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You know, the manic episodes, the depressive episodes.
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But the other piece is, I became what's considered an unreliable narrator, once I developed a chronic
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mental health condition.
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My credibility comes in doubt.
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And in the times when I was delusional and things like that, you know, the reader wouldn't know if this was really happening or not.
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So it's, very difficult...
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people have done it successfully, of course, but, it's difficult to hold a full story when
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one's mind has gone from the straight and narrow.
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So Mara provided that credibility and that witness.
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And I think, as you heard in the story, there were times when I saw...
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many times when I saw things a certain way, and Mara would say, that's not true, that's not happening.
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Yeah, I couldn't have done it without her.
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Another thing that she was really adamant about was that I have enough time if I need to take a break, if the content's too heavy.
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And there were times we took what, Mara, like a month or two...
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when it was...
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for me too, being so like, I'm so attached to deadlines and to getting stuff done and working with Kat and like knowing that we had to put her mental health first.
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It was actually like, I don't know, it was good for my mental health and for the way I work as well.
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And she taught me about like kind of taking care of yourself first, you know, self-care.
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But we were just patient with ourselves and, you know, breakfast came first and hanging out and laughing came second and then we would start work if work felt right that day.
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Was there something else that you wanted to say, Kat, that was coming up?
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no, I just think that there is such a stigma around mental health, like chronic conditions like bipolar, schizophrenia, beyond.
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During the process of writing the book, I was and still am going through a process of grieving and shame and shock.
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ah You know, it's like a bipolar, like a body snatcher comes and takes over and destroys, like the mania destroys anything it can in its path.
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You know, so it's difficult to shine a floodlight on that and have a con- and put, you know, words on a page and face that.
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You know, so Mara was really...
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like my crutches.
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I just leaned on her, you know, and she helped me pace myself and gave me permission to step away, which was huge.
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um For me also, I think it was, it was incredible to get this experience because I think you know this could happen to a friendship, and if you can continue your friendship you
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you don't really have the time to dig into all the stuff that happened and look at it really closely and understand what it meant, and this was basically like our assignment
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was to like look at what happened and to make meaning
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and connect over it kind of.
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So for example, you know, what looked to me like Kat doing a bunch of crazy s*** and the people around her was like chaos and just constant insanity in a way.
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When we got down and started talking about it and she was telling me where her mind was at during those moments and the reasons why she was doing what she was doing, it all made
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like so much sense.
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It had a logic to it and like an extreme amount of altruism.
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Like you couldn't see it from the outside, not knowing what was going on in her mind, but like...
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For me to be able to put those things together, it was very, very meaningful.
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I really liked being able to tell that story too, because Kat is such a thoughtful, credible, generous human.
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And even in her mania, like continues with that viewpoint and that desire to help people.
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It just comes out a little bit...
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different.
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From what the both of you said, what struck me is that, you know, in the story, we hear about your relationship and your connection and the bonds of love and resilience.
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But I also hear that in the process of you creating this story.
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I think it just speaks to how strong
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your relationship, your friendship, your connection, and the care and love that you have for each other.
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It just seems like this allowed you to reflect back on all that was transpiring and even make more sense out of it now after you've lived through it.
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I agree with that.
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Yeah, going through manic episodes and depressive episodes and just having this diagnosis is extremely traumatic.
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You know, having...
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a friend look at you, continue to look at you throughout the process and be like, I know you, I know who you are.
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And that this is just something that happened to you.
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It's huge in recovery.
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You know, so that's...
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I have her downloaded into me and when she forgets how amazing she is, I can download those files back into her and be like, do you remember this?
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And this is what you mean to me and this is what you mean to the world.
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I mean, I have to say I'm incredibly fortunate.
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I'm very, very fortunate to have Mara and to have my fiancé Dave.
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It really does take loved ones in the recovery process.
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And obviously the mental health professionals as well, but...
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really it's like the healing healing part is loved ones.
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And I have lost so many friendships.
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I can't even count.
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Really good friends from college, multiple friends that just, you know, ghosted me and that's really hard.
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It's a huge loss.
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It's a loss on top of
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losing my career and losing my mind.
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All it takes is one friend, one good friend to be there.
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Goes a long way.
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And it's not like a one-way thing, you know?
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Like Kat is still Kat to me and she's one of the best humans in the world and we still have a blast together.
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She serves the same, like she downloads to me who I am when I need it, you know?
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It's, we're both giving to each other.
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I also want to say just like a thing that came up in my mind that Kat also taught me in this process
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is the importance of being around too when it's a depression, that everyone kind of circles when there's mania and everyone's like on the line, you know, it's like 911 time.
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But then depression is so much quieter and people feel like they can finally rest and she's safe because she's in the house and she's on the couch or she's watching TV and
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everything's okay.
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But Kat taught me that that's...
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It's not okay, you know, it's a really important time to check in and to continue showing up and checking in.
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I thought that was, yeah, really important.
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One of the things that struck me as the two of you were speaking...
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not only seeing the person as that diagnosis, but it's like, see you.
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I see you as the person I know that you are and how powerful that was for the both of you.
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Like I know the strengths you have, the talents you have, the good person you are and how that was so
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helpful in your recovery, Kat.
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And that Mara you get that from Kat too, you know when you need to be reminded of all those things that you bring to the world.
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um How wonderful that must have been and I think as you talk, you know your friendship your relationship had been a central force in this story.
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Right?
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And how do you think living through this experience transformed your relationship, both in tender ways as well as in other ways?
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You know, Mara's such a ride-or-die.
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It's like one thing to...
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You know, enjoy fun things with friends.
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It's another when your life falls apart and they're there picking up the pieces.
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You know, it's huge.
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I do grieve who I was before bipolar.
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I grieve the friend that I was.
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You know, just not having the highs and the lows, not...
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being a burden.
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So I think that's hard.
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Especially through depressive episodes, you know, Mara will want to go on a beach walk and do, you know, spend time with the kids and do these things.
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And I just like, I can't leave the house.
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So that's really hard.
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So I think part of it is the depression itself that tells one a story about what a piece of s*** they are.
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And then there's the other piece of just...
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my not functioning like I did before.
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And I grieve that.
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So it's a mixed bag, I guess.
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Yeah, yeah, I would be similar, you know, that um going through this, like writing and being collaborators together was incredibly bonding and, you know, bringing a book baby
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into the world, launching it and having like incredible feedback and feeling like we've communicated something really important and meaningful to the world is amazing.
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And I feel so close to Kat, but also before
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this all happened, like we were probably on the phone at least two times a day, you know, texting at the same time, you know, going on trips together, going to the beach at least
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once or twice a week after the kids would go to sleep, you know, and we don't really have that in the same way right now, you know, things are different.
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And it's also, it's a bit sad, you know, it is.
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I also view it as like, she had her first, like manic episode in 2020.
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And there's been ebbs and flows to it, you know, like a cycle.
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And, and I still feel like it is a new thing in our life and our lives.
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And I, I do see a future where there's more, baseline.
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And I, I think we will get back to where we were at.
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Yeah, So you both talk about this grieving and the losses in terms of life before and now what life is like and that being a part of it that you're still processing that for
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yourself
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And it's interesting too, because like, you know, for a while, I would be a bit of like, I would be reading into her moods, you know, how do you become how do you have this good
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equal friendship where one is maybe policing the moods of the other a little bit too, you know, which is...
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It becomes like difficult as you might be seeing a shift that you wanna tell the person about, but you don't wanna rain on their parade.
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You know, it's it's so, it's complex.
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It's really complex.
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So, So dealing with that and maybe like, you know, I think even more than we've done, we should probably develop like a plan of action, you know?
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I think those things will also
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continue to benefit our friendship.
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Mm-hmm.
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What do you think about that, Kat?
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Yeah.
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Let's plan of action.
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You know, it's interesting, Kat, I guess I wanted to follow up with Mara.
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Have there been times, you know, because I think on the one, I mean, it sounds like it's this tightrope, right?
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Ooh, am I seeing her go into either manic episode or depression?
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Do I do something or is she okay?
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you know, Do we enact that plan?
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And I guess
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on your end, how is that experience?
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Because you know that these people, it's like, they have this plan.
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You may not be fully aware, kind of, of what's going on, right?
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You had talked about, you know, at times, not, you know, being delusional or maybe not fully grounded in reality.
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And so I guess I was wondering about for you in terms of your experiences
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as you kind of see them trying to evaluate what's going on with you.
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Yeah, well the mania has been really difficult because...
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I mean it starts out, you know, fun.
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I'm finally feeling better, I'm out of the depression, I want to go and do things.
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And then it progresses into paranoia and delusion.
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At those points, I pretty much will like kind of distance myself from Mara and my fiancé and kind of just do my own thing and I'm...
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You know, I'm off in the deep end.
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It happens pretty quickly.
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So I'm not really paying attention to what they're, I don't really know what they're doing behind the scenes because I'm in my own world.
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You know, it isn't until after I get back, you know, after I'm hospitalized and I'm medicated, that when me, Mara and Dave all have a conversation.
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Oh, did you know that you did this and you said this?
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And I'm just like, oh my.
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It's so embarrassing.
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You know, I think that happens a lot for people with bipolar.
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There's after a manic episode, there's a huge amount of embarrassment of behavior, you know.
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So I'd say there's definitely disconnect during the mania.
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During the depressive episodes, you know, it's...
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I don't, again, like Mara said, that's not the emergency time, right?
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It's sort of more like Mara's like, I'm bringing you lunch.
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I'm like, okay.
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I'm like, she's like, I just want to stay in and I'm like, is it the kind of stay in where you really want to stay in or the kind of stay in where if I came and said we're going on
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a walk, you'd be happy about a walk?
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And she's like, it's the kind of stay in where I want to stay in.
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I, I think that the mania is like, it's very hard, even at the beginning stages of it.
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And what I've experienced with Kat is that there's already a pushback to seeing the signs.
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Like I think the brain is already shifted.
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It's almost...
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It's too late.
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I don't, I don't, we still don't really know how to, how to do it.
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We see the signs, and then...
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We've even done an interesting thing where we've done meetings with me, Kat and her psychiatrist.
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And even that's been challenging...
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Yeah.
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for the psychiatrist who isn't with her all the time like I am to see the signs that I see.
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So then she thinks that maybe I'm being a little too overly concerned or preemptive.
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And then who am I to be the person dictating how Kat gets to express and live.
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Mm-hmm.
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the worst to have your friend finally be happy and then to be like, your happiness is triggering.
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It's complicated.
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The mania is so seductive.
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I mean it...
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when it's happening, it's like my meds are finally right, you know, I'm finally you know back to a place where I'm functioning.
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I go pick up my mom and take her to this and go to here, do this and that.
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I have ideas.
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I may be like, oh, I might be a little hypomanic, you know, and then I'll just stop taking my lithium because clearly I'm better and I don't need it, you know.
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While it's happening, I'm not...
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So it's, it's a very, it's unfortunate.
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And then it's almost like I have amnesia, you know, every time.
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It's like there's something in me that is just so happy to feel
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like a taste of being functional again.
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Yeah, it's very seductive and it's difficult.
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It's good until it's not good anymore.
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I'm either harming myself, I'm spending thousands of dollars, I'm traveling to another country, you know, just not...
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taking care of myself.
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It's a really challenging illness.
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I mean, depression has its challenge and it can be lethal, right?
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With depression, you can throw antidepressants at it.
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With bipolar, you can't because that could trigger mania.
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So when you talk about the tightrope, you know, it really is a tightrope of not going one way or the other.
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I continue to hear that it's so difficult because the ramp up is so quick.
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If you're going into mania, it's like the switch just goes on and it just takes off like a roller coaster.
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And so I could hear, Mara, your trepidation, like you want your friend to be happy, but at the same time, is it taking us on this wild ride that we know
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we've seen before.
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And Kat for you it's almost like not even knowing that that's happening at the time, right?
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And I mean, I have to say that there is, you know, also the questioning in my own mind of like, "Okay, is this like the next, is she better for this moment?
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Is she just happy and we're in a good place?
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Am I being overly concerned?" And, you know, so it's this constant tightrope also, I guess, for me in a way of wanting to be a good friend and supportive and not
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have her get to her bad place.
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But then like, you know, boundaries too.
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What is mine and what is hers?
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I think that's still in process for us, for me?
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I don't know.
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Yeah, I could imagine.
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Because you're wanting to take care of your friend, but at the same time allow that person to have independence and their own decision-making power, right?
26:08
Absolutely, yeah.
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I'm just looking at her and I love her.
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I love you.
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How are you feeling right now talking about this?
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Like I want to numb out doing something.
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It's hard.
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Yeah.
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Kat, you do whatever you need to do to take care of yourself.
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You know?
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You're okay?
26:32
Okay.
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I mean, because we can take a timeout or...
26:36
Okay.
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people to know how good like...
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Kat's just an incredible human.
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And I think being able to like...
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the nuance with what you're talking about your experiences with bipolar is incredible.
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And I think it would be interesting to hear Kat's perspective if something's coming up for you about how you wish people in the medical field treated you and how you wish it was
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different.
27:00
It's really tough to say because...
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I mean, countless times I was detained in the back of a police car, you know, and when it was happening, of course, I was not understanding...
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like I didn't commit a crime.
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This is against the law.
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I'm being held against my will.
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You know, there's
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multiple videos out there at the police department of me in the back of the car talking about how I'm gonna sue.
27:27
It's just, it's a difficult thing because...
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I mean, I had to be restrained to take it to the hospital.
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The other thing was, you know, being given Haldol, being restrained, tied down to a bed and being injected
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with something without my consent.
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In all of my medical training, you know, obviously consent and not under duress is huge.
27:51
So in that moment, my whole psyche felt I was being violated.
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And of course, in retrospect,
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I mean, it's legal.
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Now we have 5150s.
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It's illegal to inject someone with Haldol against their will if they're presenting with psychosis or mania.
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But it's still really f***** up.
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There's harm that's done.
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Because every fiber in my being at the time of, you know...
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The first time it happened, I was doing
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fertility treatment.
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And lord, I mean the phthalates and the other chemicals I was avoiding to preserve my egg quality, all the things I was doing.
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I mean I really was in the middle of...
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the egg retrieval was supposed to happen days later.
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We believe that I had a steroid-induced psychosis due to dexamethasone.
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Just a steroid you take
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during IVF.
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I remember just screaming, tied down, you know, and there's like six people and they've got a needle and I'm screaming, "Don't hurt my embryo, don't hurt my embryo.
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I've paid so much money." And it was my fourth round.
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So that was just like, "You're hurting me and you're hurting my future baby.
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Why are you doing this to me?
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You don't have my consent." You know, so it's a difficult part of the illness, I would say, because you're being...
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every medical ethic that you learn about of anything is, it goes against that.
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On the other side of all of that, you know, once I was put on medication and stabilized and then moved into the
29:23
depressive episode, that I could look back at that and go, "Okay, they were...
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they gave me the Haldol so I could sleep.
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You know, I was psychotic.
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But in the process, it just feels like abuse.
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I remember one of the nurses, whoever, laughing over me, you know, as they're grabbing my arm and all my legs are tied down.
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I mean, just...
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It's like so barbaric.
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I wish health professionals could understand, they have to distance themselves a little bit and say, "This is not a consenting adult.
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This person is 5150, so we have a right to shoot them up with whatever the hell we want to, and we can tie them down."
30:03
You know, maybe they have to justify it because it can't be easy to witness that.
30:07
What I heard is that even though it's legal, and for our audience, a 5150 is basically when it's believed the person's gonna hurt themselves or hurt someone else, that legally
30:21
they can be taken into hospitalization and they don't have to agree to it because it's believed that you are trying to keep this person safe or someone else safe from that
30:34
person.
30:34
But what I heard, Kat, is it's still, at that moment anyways, it felt like a violation to you because it wasn't with your consent.
30:47
So that's how you experienced it.
30:50
Even though this was legal and considered ethical.
30:55
Yeah, but during the process it felt like my personhood you know, it didn't matter.
31:03
And that you want medical providers to know that that moment is really important that they know how they're kind of coming across to the patient.
31:15
Like probably seeing the provider laughing didn't feel like they are doing this with care and compassion, you know?
31:24
And that's so important, I think, for providers to hear: that you're still a person.
31:30
You still deserve respect and you still deserve dignity.
31:34
Yeah, definitely.
31:36
And it's remembered, you know, even though it's like an acute moment with psychosis, she remembers it.
31:41
You have been willing to share your story and, you know, give the journey.
31:47
What wisdom would you want others, especially navigating kind of the same mental health path that you've gone through, what wisdom or
31:58
things that you can impart on them that you would want to now, now that you've gone through this?
32:05
I think one of the biggest things is...
32:09
Especially through depressive episodes, I will feel like, why am I not better?
32:14
I think one of the biggest things I've kind of identified is that there's a huge amount of grief involved.
32:20
There's a lot of loss.
32:22
You know, I lost
32:23
consulting gig I had with San Diego Unified.
32:27
I lost friendships.
32:28
I remember in high school and college, I knew of people, especially college, I knew of people doing drugs.
32:35
My mom actually has bipolar, so I grew up with her taking a plate full of pills, and she was mostly on the couch all the time, other than the times she was manic.
32:45
I just remember thinking, "I will never risk taking any substance that could harm my brain." I think maybe deep down I knew there was a genetic predisposition for bipolar.
32:59
I used to just have so much disdain for the...
33:02
Mara and I both went to UCLA, just like the frat boys that would be doing coke or whatever, and I just...
33:09
couldn't understand how one could play roulette with one's brain.
33:16
You know, so I prided myself on like protecting my brain.
33:21
And it took infertility....
33:24
My desire to become a mother was so strong that I somehow got over
33:31
what it would take to inject myself every day with drugs in order to have a baby.
33:36
And on that fourth round, my body just said, nope.
33:39
And I became psychotic.
33:40
So...
33:41
I forgot the question.
33:44
What were we talking about?
33:47
We just were saying and you went through all of this and insights or wisdoms that you have that you would want others to know.
33:56
Don't do drugs.
33:57
You know, think it's...
33:58
I mean, really...
33:59
Don't...
34:01
Don't...
34:02
Unless it's prescribed, but even then, you know, do your research.
34:07
What happened to me with IVF was very rare, you know, and I did have this predisposition.
34:12
You know, you hear about people smoking weed one time, they develop psychosis, you know?
34:17
So I would say protect your brain.
34:19
Kat, you also had that great, like you wanted to talk about the mantras you have for yourself.
34:25
guess part of me sharing this whole story is that this could happen to anyone, you know?
34:35
For people with bipolar, however it developed, whatever age, you know, it's not your fault for it developing.
34:41
Identifying, if it makes sense and fits right for you, the grief and the loss of your brain and your life before that first manic episode or whenever it was.
34:52
As Mara was saying, I kind of have some mantras.
34:56
It's mostly for when I'm, I mean, the majority
34:58
of it is the depression, right?
35:00
The mania is like the star that gets all the attention.
35:02
One of them is that, "There's nothing wrong with this moment."
35:05
So really just trying to ground myself in the present if I'm feeling anxiety or feeling really low.
35:13
You know, just really ground myself in this moment.
35:15
You know, they have that five, four, three, two, one, right?
35:19
You know, identify five things that you can see, four things you can touch, three things you can taste, smell.
35:26
It goes down the list and you can modify it.
35:29
But just grounding in the present.
35:31
And there's nothing wrong with this moment.
35:33
The other thing is just reminding myself that there are people that love me and care about me.
35:38
Also reminding myself that I'm not going to feel this way forever.
35:43
Especially right after a manic episode, I'll usually like crash pretty hard into depression.
35:48
And so just reminding myself like it's gonna get better.
35:51
This is not, this is not forever, this feeling.
35:55
I mean, I've completely reframed my life.
35:58
I was pre-med, then I started a PhD program in public health and really wanted to save the world, you know, make this big impact.
36:08
And I've had to let that go.
36:10
It's actually been a huge relief.
36:12
I have permission not to feel like I have to do all these things and save all these people.
36:19
that's kind of been a reframe for me on the other side of this diagnosis.
36:25
Thank you for sharing those.
36:28
They're wonderful.
36:29
And it sounds like they're really helpful to you.
36:33
Yeah, it's like brainwashing myself.
36:36
I will reframe it as allowing you to just be in the moment and that you know that that moment is temporary.
36:43
I'm gonna ask Mara now, what insights for you in terms of going through this experience and being someone that
36:54
saw her through all the different events that had happened.
36:58
I guess what insights or wisdom would you give if you're on the end of someone that you love and care about and you're seeing them go through this journey?
37:11
One of the biggest things is that like we've kind of discussed it, but that she is not her you know, manic self.
37:18
She's not, as we called it, like "manic Kat." She's not "bipolar Kat." She's Kat.
37:23
you know?
37:24
And that is an illness that she has.
37:27
I've really learned to separate the two.
37:30
you know?
37:30
It feels like when it's happening, it's like a body snatcher and I don't...
37:34
Nothing she says, like, I take personally.
37:38
you know?
37:38
It kind of, It's like waiting for it to pass.
37:41
We've talked a lot about, like, why do some people get pushed away by it and leave versus the friends that have been able to stay?
37:49
And we have a lot of theories; maybe these, people have been traumatized by mental illness before and have, have baggage with it.
37:56
I think being able to separate the person from the disorder is really, really important.
38:01
The other thing is like you can feel helpless sometimes, you know, trying to help in these situations.
38:07
I've told Kat that, and she's kind of been like, you know, "Your job is not to fix this." In a way there is no fix, you know, it's going to be
38:15
a journey.
38:16
Showing up is the thing to show that you're not going away.
38:19
You know, even if she doesn't want to go out for a walk that day, it's about, you know, texting and just having that person know that you're still there.
38:27
You have all the love for them.
38:28
You remember who they are, you know?
38:30
So just those things, like just showing up.
38:32
And having the love.
38:34
And also, I mean, the mental health care system is completely f***** up.
38:39
And it's just super hard to navigate.
38:41
And a lot of times it makes you feel very helpless as someone trying to get somebody help.
38:45
It's sad, but it kind of, it almost feels like you have to like let it run its course in some way.
38:51
You know, there's nothing you can really do.
38:54
It's wild.
38:54
Yeah.
38:55
Yeah.
38:56
a sad note to end it on.
38:57
Well, I was gonna just jump in and say that
39:00
you are really good at taking care of yourself, at least from my vantage point.
39:05
She does Pilates, she does pottery, she's got a great group of friends in her neighborhood and beyond.
39:11
She takes care of her body and her mind, and I think that goes
39:17
a long way.
39:18
She doesn't have a chronic mental illness that we know of yet.
39:22
Maybe I'll give you one.
39:22
well.
39:23
always ready to laugh.
39:25
Like, look at her.
39:26
She goes from tears to the best jokes ever.
39:29
And what a great thing to have in a friendship, right?
39:33
That you can laugh about things.
39:35
And I hear you both enjoy each other.
39:38
So for us to end on a more positive note then, I'm gonna ask you, what is your hope, I guess in the future?
39:48
You know, where you are today and what gives you hope in going forward?
39:52
I always remind Kat when she's low that like, the same thing she reminds herself of, it's the moment.
39:57
And she's had these low moments.
39:59
And then again, we get back to like, Euthymia to baseline and...
40:06
she ends up feeling like a lot of energy.
40:07
We go out and we do things.
40:09
So I think that's like, you know, you're capturing Kat right now in a moment where she's coming out of a very long depression.
40:17
It's been maybe five or six months of a pretty dark place.
40:22
It depends on where, when we would have had this, this interview of how everything would seem and look.
40:28
So I just think the future
40:29
looks bright.
40:30
I think there will be like, I'm not going to be ignorant.
40:33
I know things will happen.
40:34
I know this is a lifelong thing, but I also see her being able to like stay even more.
40:41
And I think we're going to have a lot more fun.
40:43
And I think we're going to have beach days this summer and probably more friend- mantic trips lined up.
40:50
And for you, Kat, what, I guess, hope do you have for your friendship and your journey with Mara?
40:56
It's hard because, as she mentioned, I am kind of coming out of this depression, so it's...
41:03
hard not to judge myself about, you know, maybe she'll invite me somewhere and I'll say no because I don't, you know, I don't feel good.
41:10
It's hard to see outside of this sometimes.
41:13
I don't know, it's hard.
41:15
It's hard to feel hopeful right now.
41:18
I feel incredibly grateful for the way that she shows up
41:22
but there's, in the back of my head, there's, you know, I could be a better friend.
41:27
I could show up, you know, for her and for the twins, her kids, and, you know, what's wrong with me?
41:34
I'm having a hard time leaving the house, you know, so,
41:37
I guess that's my answer.
41:39
It's hard to be hopeful when I'm depressed
41:42
because my sense of my self-esteem, my view in the world, things that would make me, you know, getting, just getting out and getting into my car and driving somewhere and doing
41:52
something, that sense of like activation and actualization, you know, not having that as much when I'm down.
41:58
This isn't a very hopeful answer, but...
42:01
It's a perfect answer because you're being authentic and genuine.
42:06
You're answering it with honesty.
42:09
Yeah, I think that people can see themselves in that, you know, like it's important to have an honest answer for those people that feel that way and don't get to hear it very
42:18
often because people are trying to cover it up and make everything sound okay.
42:22
Yeah, I mean, to go from, you know, I have this great job, I have all of these friends, you know, I'm doing this volunteer work, I'm creating this thing, you know, to lose all of
42:33
that.
42:33
I mean, It's a miracle that I didn't lose Mara.
42:37
It's a miracle I didn't lose my fiancé Dave.
42:41
I mean, They both are outliers, I think, in tolerance and love.
42:46
You know, but it's when you lose so much, like I said, it's that...
42:50
that grief, it kind of like spreads on a peanut butter jelly sandwich.
42:57
It's just this grief can go...
43:00
like I look at Mara and I say, oh, I've lost, you know, the summer's almost over.
43:05
And we could have gone to the beach so much more, but I wasn't feeling well.
43:09
But that's what depression does.
43:12
Depression.
43:13
You know, you see that
43:14
there's that negative talk and it's it's resting on a lot of grief and a lot of loss and a lot of unknown and then there's like the gremlin of mania.
43:26
You know, I have to worry about her.
43:30
I start to feel a little bit better and more active and then it's like, "Hold on!
43:37
Wait a minute." You know so it's, yeah, it's that tightrope.
43:40
You know, I never want to take Mara for granted; you know?
43:44
Same.
43:45
easy to, because she just makes being my friend look so easy.
43:49
It is, I mean, I have a nice time with Kat no matter what mood she's in.
43:55
And I wish you would know that, Kat, that you don't have to show up any certain way and I never feel like you're not being a good friend.
44:01
And you don't have to go on the beach walk tonight if you don't want to.
44:04
So we are at the end, but I want to thank the both of you for bravely and courageously showing up today for this.
44:13
You have shared so much and I think people are going to learn so much from the journey that the both of you have taken and being willing to put it out there because sometimes
44:25
people don't want to talk about this, right?
44:28
And that stigma around having
44:31
a mental health diagnosis and all that it includes, and you both have shined a light on it and talked about it; allowed people into the actual window of it to be able to see it.
44:46
And so I'm just...
44:47
from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for being here, for sharing your stories and your lived experiences.
44:56
And I want to thank you for joining us today.
44:59
Remember that wellness is a journey, not a destination.
45:05
Everyone, please take good care of yourself, and we will see you next time.
45:10
Thank you.
45:11
Thank you.
45:11
Thank you.