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The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies · This Film is Lit

• 0:04
  Speaker A: This film is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple question. Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian and I have a film degree, so I watch the movie but don't read the book.
• 0:15
  Speaker B: And I'm Katie. I have an english degree, so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie.
• 0:22
  Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in, and get ready for spoilers. Because this film is lit, so comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings. It's the the battle of the five armies, and this film is litanous. Hello and welcome back to this film is lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. It's the final episode of the 2024 summer series. We're finishing up the Hobbit with part three of the film series the battle of the five armies. Before we get into this and wrap up, we wanted to let you know right here at the top that if you want to support us, you can head over to patreon.com slash. This film is lit. Support us there for a few bucks a month and get access to different stuff. At the $5 and up level, you get access to bonus content. And if you want to hear, you know, some people have asked about the animated the Hobbit film. Why didn't we do that? Why didn't we talk about that? Well, good news. If you support us for $5 a month and you head over to on Patreon later this month, we will be talking about the animated Hobbit film as our bonus episode. Often we will do that. If we have things that kind of correspond to what we're doing on the main episodes, we might try to find ways to work those in. But yeah, we'll be talking about the animated Hobbit over there so you can get access to that. We just did an episode on ten things I hate about you, which was Katie's pick for her birthday last month, even though her birthday is this month. It's complicated, but it's fine. So yeah, lots of fun bonus content. So go check that out. Patreon.com thisfilmislitz but right now, lets get into it. If you have not read or watched the the battle of the five armies, here is a summary of the film. Let me explain. No, there is too much.
• 2:32
  Speaker B: Let me sum up Bilbo and the dwarves watch from the lonely mountain as the dragon Smaug sets Laketown ablaze. Bard breaks out of prison and kills Smaug with the black arrow. Smaugs falling body crushes the master of Laketown and his cronies, who were escaping on a boat with the towns gold. Bard becomes the new leader of Laketown and guides its people to seek refuge in the ruins of Dale. Thorin, now possessing the vast treasure in the mountain, searches obsessively for the Arkenstone, which Bilbo had previously found but kept hidden. Upon hearing that Laketown's survivors have fled to Dale, he orders the entrance of the lonely mountains sealed off. Meanwhile, Galadriel, Elrond, and Saruman arrive at Dol Guldur and free Gandalf, sending him to safety with Radagast. They battle and defeat the Nazgul and then face a formless sauron. Galadriel banishes him and his forces and says he will go to the east. Azog, marching on Erebor with his vast orc army, sends his son Bulg to Mount Gundabad to summon their second army. Legolas and Tariel witness the march of Bolg's army, bolstered by Orc berserkers and giant bats. Thranduil and an elf army arrive in Dale to reclaim a treasure once withheld from them by the dwarf king Thror. Bard asks Thorin for a share of gold previously promised to the people of Laketown, but Thorin refuses. Gandalf arrives at Dale to warn Bard and Thranduil of Azog's army, but Thranduil dismisses his advice. Bilbo sneaks the Arkenstone out of Erebor and gives it to Thranduil and Bard so that they can trade it for the promised treasures and prevent a war. Thorin angrily refuses the proposal, while Bilbo chides him for letting greed cloud his judgment. Thorin nearly kills Bilbo, but is stopped by Gandalf. Thorin's cousin Dain arrives with his dwarf army in a battle of dwarves against elves, and men ensues until Azog's army arrives. The forces of Dain, Thranduil, and Bard, along with Gandalf and Bilbo, immediately band together against the Orcs. The second front is opened when the Orcs attack Dale, forcing Bard to withdraw his forces to defend the city. Inside Erebor, Thorin suffers hallucinations of being swallowed up by gold before regaining his sanity, realizing his greed and selfishness, and leading his company to join the battle. He rides with Dwalin, Fili and Kili to Ravenhill to kill Azog. Meanwhile, Tariel and Legolas arrive to warn the dwarves of Bolg's arrival, and Bilbo volunteers to relay the news to Thorin, using his magic to move through the combat unseen. Azog kills Fili as Bilbo and the other dwarves are forced to watch. Bulg overpowers Tariel and then kills Kili, who had come to her aid. Legolas battles Bulg and eventually kills him. The great Eagles arrive with Radagast and Beorn, and the Orcs are finally defeated. In the climax, Thorin engages Azog in a duel and kills him, but is fatally wounded in the process. Bilbo makes peace with the dying Thorin, while Tariel mourns Kili. Thranduil advises Legolas to seek out a Dunedain ranger in the north who goes by the name of Strider. Thorin is buried with the arkenstone along with Kili and Fili, and Dane is crowned king under the mountain. Thorin's company settles back into Erebor and Dale begins to rebuild with Bard as its leader. Bilbo bids farewell to the companys remaining members and journeys home to the shire with Gandalf as the two part ways on the outskirts of the shire, Gandalf admits his knowledge of Bilbos magic ring and warns him of it. Although Bilbo assures him that he had lost the ring. Bilbo returns to Bag end to find his belongings being auctioned off because he was presumed dead. He stops the sale and starts tidying up his home, revealing he still possesses the ring. 60 years later, Bilbo receives a visit from Gandalf on his 111th birthday.
• 6:37
  Speaker A: Alright, there is a summary of the film, the battle of the five armies. We're gonna get into it now and break down every single thing that Katie and I thought was better in the book. You like to read?
• 6:52
  Speaker B: Oh yes, I love to read.
• 6:55
  Speaker A: What do you like to read?
• 6:58
  Speaker B: Everything. So you mentioned in our prequel episode that this is the only movie in this series and in Peter Jackson's Lord.
• 7:08
  Speaker A: Of the Rings movies or Middle earth movies.
• 7:11
  Speaker B: Yeah. So this series and also the Lord of the Rings trilogy, that does not start with some kind of flashback or.
• 7:19
  Speaker A: Flash forward or flash forward.
• 7:22
  Speaker B: Boy howdy. This movie really said in media res with its whole chest.
• 7:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:31
  Speaker B: It picks up literally where the last movie ended with Smaug flying down to Laketown.
• 7:37
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:38
  Speaker B: And I was a little torn on this. I felt like, I was like, maybe it works in this specific instance, does this work? But then I wasn't sure if it actually worked or if I just thought that it worked because we watched the previous movie like two weeks ago. And I was really questioning, like, if I were just casually going to the movie theater to see the latest hobbit movie, would this work? And I don't know.
• 8:04
  Speaker A: I think it would. I think it would work because it. You would. I mean, I think you have to have at least some assumption, hopefully, that your audience at least vaguely even knows how the last movie. You know what I mean? Not that they had to have just watched it, but at least knows how the last movie ended with smog flying off towards Lake town. So that, like, I think it works. I think it's fun. Fine. I don't. I will say I think it works fine in the movie. I still prefer. Although my change of what I would have wanted here I don't think would have actually helped what you're talking about. Like a general audience maybe who like just jumping right back in. Because what I thought could have been potentially interesting. Maybe it's. I don't know. But something where we actually get to like, if we had done a flashback or a yemenite, a actually, I think this could have worked. What they could have done is start with a flashback. And they probably didn't do this because of budget reasons and timing and stuff. But to smaug destroying Dale or something like that. Or a little bit. Or the aftermath of smog or something. Show us, like a little bit from the past of like, what Dale was like back in the day.
• 9:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 9:16
  Speaker A: Or so I don't know if they could have done something like that. Or my other thought was that if they had, like, shown us. And I guess it would still be kind of starting in media res. But maybe flashback. Not even a flashback, but just rewind time slightly to win Smaug woke up, which I guess they kind of did. I can't remember. And show us, like, have us follow somebody in Laketown for like a day. Like see a day in the life of a Laketown resident or something. Like very quick, like kind of like montage type thing. And then smog shows up to kind of reground us in Laketown and like, get us to connect with the. With the people there a little bit or something. Like, something like that. I think could have been an interesting.
• 9:59
  Speaker B: Way to start the film. That was ultimately kind of my issue with it was that, like, I have it and better in the book because I felt so unsure.
• 10:07
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 10:07
  Speaker B: About whether or not the movie's tactic here worked, but I didn't mind what was in the movie. But I do think my ultimate kind of where I'm waffling is that I didn't feel like the movie gave us any time to, like, reground ourselves in the world of the film.
• 10:23
  Speaker A: And I think that's why my initial thought was, I do think, yeah, if we had, like, if we had basically rewound time to, like, the beginning of that day or something.
• 10:31
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:31
  Speaker A: And, like, watch somebody, like, who just works and lives in Lake town, like, going about their day, and then all of a sudden smog shows. You know what I mean? Like, so we see them, like, wake up and, like, see a little bit of the lake town and, like, they go to work in the fish stall or whatever. But I don't know. Something like that, I think, could have been an interesting, interesting way to give us a more of a connection to the city that's about to be destroyed in front of us while also giving us a little bit of, like, reintroduction. I think that could have worked. But again, I understand. I imagine a lot of it was just like, well, it's literally just part two. Like, this is, the movie ended. And then, because it wasn't even supposed to end there, the movie was not supposed to end there. So they did not have a beginning planned. You know what I mean? Like, the movie was supposed to end if they went. I think realistically, they were supposed to end, like, after the lake town, after Smaug dies. The last movie was. And they just, for multiple reasons, decided to end it earlier than that. And so I think that's why that we don't get anything here. But I think, yeah, I agree that they could have done something interesting at the beginning to kind of reintroduce us to the world.
• 11:39
  Speaker B: I will say, though, that something I did think was better in the movie about this beginning was that I didn't have to spend an entire chapter stuck in the mountain with the dwarves before finding out what happened with Smaug and Laketown. Because where the movie two ends in the book, it literally ends the same way with Smaug flying down to Laketown. But then the book cuts back and you just, like, hang out, hang out with the dwarves for an entire chapter while they do nothing.
• 12:07
  Speaker A: And then we go to Laketown, and.
• 12:10
  Speaker B: The narrator's like, well, you're probably wondering what happened with the dragon. I sure am.
• 12:14
  Speaker A: Sure am. Absolutely. But speaking of Smaug showing up as we get back to Lake town with Smaug coming in to destroy it. We are reintroduced to Bard who is locked in jail. He was thrown in jail by the master for whatever made up, trumped up reasons and he needs to escape because Smaug comes swooping in and he wants to help, blah, blah, blah. But he's locked in this prison and all the guards are out dealing with the dragon stuff and he. I couldn't tell if he saw the boat coming. I'm not because this may. This was wild to me because we see him in his cell and he starts messing. He like starts ripping up a blanket or something and starts like doing something with it. And I thought he was gonna like, I don't know, like use. I don't know what he was gonna do with it. But what we see and at the same time the. The master of the town and his little cronies are have on a boat full of gold trying to sail out of the city as Smauga's attacking. Trying to get away with all the gold.
• 13:14
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 13:16
  Speaker A: And as they go under the. The prison is like in a bridge over one of the canals, basically. And as they go under it bard throws a rope that he has braided seemingly in about 30 seconds.
• 13:33
  Speaker B: He's very fast.
• 13:34
  Speaker A: He has braided like 60ft of rope. It's. It's a ton of it.
• 13:40
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 13:41
  Speaker A: And he throws it out the window. It loops over the stern of the.
• 13:47
  Speaker B: Boat they're on and almost beheads.
• 13:50
  Speaker A: Almost beheads the master but ends up catching on the boat. And then the momentum of the boat, he ties it to the bars in the wall of his cell and the momentum of the boat rips the wall off his cell, basically, which is a fine moment, but it seems like. So he must have saw the boat coming.
• 14:10
  Speaker B: Yeah. From like way back.
• 14:11
  Speaker A: From back. And in the time it took to get to him, he braided like 60ft of rope. Cause the way it's edited it looks like he did it in a matter of seconds. And I'm like, how did he pull this off? It's crazy.
• 14:26
  Speaker B: He's a very fast braider. I guess he's quick with the fingers.
• 14:31
  Speaker A: And the braider and apparently had enough material in his cell to make that much. It's just nonsense. Which again, is whatever. I don't want to get two. I have another note that's a similar one here in just a second. But man, it just felt supremely like kind of lazy writing to figure out how to get him out of his jail cell.
• 14:51
  Speaker B: I do kind of wish that the movie would have gone ahead and had the thrush, the little bird, flitter down and tell Bard about the bear patch on Smaug's chest. I'm aware that it wouldn't really fit tonally in what they're doing in this movie, but I just like it. Yeah, I just think it's fun.
• 15:14
  Speaker A: And we find out Bard can understand the bird because he's a descendant of the Men of Dale or whatever. So he can apparently understand birds.
• 15:22
  Speaker B: Why not?
• 15:24
  Speaker A: So a bunch of stuff goes down. Smog starts destroying the whole town, but Bard is trying to fight back. So he climbs this bell tower with his bow and arrows and is shooting arrows at Smaug as it's flying around, destroying the town, and he runs out of arrows. He has one last arrow. He shoots it. It hits Smaug and just bounces off. Doesn't do anything. And at this point, his son, who was leaving town with Tariel and some of the other dwarves, they were trying to get out on another boat, sees his dad shooting arrows and realizes he might have something that can help because he went and hid the black arrow at the end of the last movie in a random boat. So he runs and he grabs that black arrow, and he climbs up the thing and brings the arrow to his dad. Like, here, you can shoot the dragon with this. And Bard, like, grabs it and then looks around and picks up his bow, which is destroyed at this point. Yeah, but he acts like he was gonna shoot that, like that giant wrought iron arrow with his normal bow.
• 16:30
  Speaker B: The arrow is as big as the bow if it's not bigger than, yes, the bow.
• 16:36
  Speaker A: Super dumb already. But then what he ends up doing is he takes the broken pieces of the bow and sticks them into the, like, broken, like, the wood of the tower he's on and creates this, like, makeshift bow out of the broken pieces of his bow and uses that to shoot it. Which one? Okay. Very obviously would not work because as soon as you wrenched on that bowstring. I'm sorry. You could not get those into the wooden and sturdy enough to not just pull right out, which. Okay, fine. Like, sure, whatever. We're doing some magic realism here. It's a. There's dragon. Like, I'm. I'll try. Like, I already think that's a little silly, personally. Like, it takes me out of the movie, but I understand if it doesn't take you out of the movie, it's fine. Like, it's whatever. Because, again, there's a lot of nonsense that happens in these movies, and there's plenty of things you could point out that I like and go, well, that's dumb, too. And I'd be like, all right, fair enough. But for whatever reason, this one in particular really took me out of it in this moment. But two, they introduced in the first movie or second movie.
• 17:42
  Speaker B: Right, yeah.
• 17:43
  Speaker A: Because when I went to see Lake town in the first movie, in the second movie, they introduce a special weapon specifically made for firing these specific arrows.
• 17:52
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 17:53
  Speaker A: Called the Wind Lance. And they, like, show a shot of it. And it's like this ballista looking thing.
• 17:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:58
  Speaker A: And then we don't even mention it.
• 18:00
  Speaker B: No, we don't even.
• 18:02
  Speaker A: I don't even think we see it, like, get destroyed or something. Right. Like, so it's just like they decided that was dumb. They didn't want to do that, the windlance thing, which I already thought was kind of dumb. I was like, we don't need a special weapon. But again, to me, this very much reeks of the fact that this, they, they were making this up as they went, a lot of it. Because the. The easy answer is he should have just used a normal bow. But the arrow, even if you want to make it a special arrow, should have just been, like a fairly normal.
• 18:29
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 18:29
  Speaker A: Like, it could look cool and special, but don't make it, like, 8ft long and made out of wrought iron. You know what I mean? Like, just. Just make it look a little, you know, like a special arrow. Like maybe with a special type of head or like a special arrowhead or something.
• 18:44
  Speaker B: I mean, in the book, it's just like his lucky arrow or whatever he.
• 18:48
  Speaker A: Does say it's his black arrow. He calls it that specifically. And he talks to him again, and it is from his ancestors. So again, like we said in the last episode, there's elements of this that the movie pulled to, like, kind of ends fleshed out. But they just, they realized ultimately, like, we don't want to do this whole windlass thing because we, they, at some point, they decided they wanted them to climb the bell tower because that would be cool. But then they're like, well, we can't have them use the wind lance now. Right? So we got to come up with.
• 19:14
  Speaker B: Where if they had had the forethought, they could have put the windlance in.
• 19:18
  Speaker A: The tower, in the belt or something like that.
• 19:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, something.
• 19:20
  Speaker A: Yeah, that would have worked, too, because then they could have. Yeah, that actually would have worked because he's, he climbs up there. He's using his arrows because he doesn't know where that arrow is, like, at this point. And then his son comes up and brings him that arrow and he can use it finally, you know, like, yeah, they could have done something like that, but they didn't put it up in the bell. So again, it's just. It just reeks of the fact that they didn't know what they were doing and whatever. It's just all kind of a mess. Like I said, I actually ended up thinking I thought I would end up liking the smog sequence in the movie more, just getting to see it.
• 19:50
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 19:51
  Speaker A: And because the book version is, like, incredibly short and, yeah, it's almost nothing in the book, but I ended up preferring the book's version because the movie's version was so kind of silly to me. And the other big reason is that the book version has an incredibly metal ass line to caps off the sequence that does not make an appearance in the movie right after he shoots him. The final line of this little section of the book is that was the end of Smaug and Escaroth, but not of Bard, which is fucking metal. And I wish they should have worked that in somehow. Again, another reason these movies needed a narrator.
• 20:30
  Speaker B: So in our last episode, we talked about how Legolas is in these movies. He's not in the books, but we kind of talked through it. Neither of us really mind that Legolas is there. But I'm going to go ahead and reiterate.
• 20:45
  Speaker A: I do now because of this movie, but I didn't in the last movie.
• 20:49
  Speaker B: But I'm going to go ahead and reiterate. A big problem that I have with it that I think is a real weak spot is that Legolas character in the Lord of the Rings movies, which happened after these movies, right? Yeah, they were made before these movies, but again, they happen chronologically after these ones. And his character in the Lord of the Rings movies does not seem at all informed by the goings on of particularly. And I just. And it kind of ties back into my issue with these movies being so hard and fast connected to Lord of the Rings, which is really not super the case in the book.
• 21:37
  Speaker A: No, not really. No.
• 21:38
  Speaker B: I just.
• 21:39
  Speaker A: No. In the book, you can tell that this book was written before the Lord of the Rings, whereas in the movies, you can very clearly tell these movies were made after the Lord of the Rings movies.
• 21:47
  Speaker B: I just feel like if you're gonna go so hard in the paint to connect the two, then you kind of gotta be a slave to that continuity, in my opinion.
• 21:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think there's anything outlandishly out of character, is there? Something specific. You're thinking of that because I agree that in a general sense, that it doesn't feel super. Like his character doesn't feel super connected. I was just wondering if there was anything specific about his character that felt like it was discongruous or incongruous with his Lord of the Rings character.
• 22:19
  Speaker B: I cannot point to a specific moment. I just feel like. Listen.
• 22:26
  Speaker A: No. Cause I agree. In general, I just.
• 22:29
  Speaker B: I do love Legolas as any girl, any red blooded young girl who is male attracted girl at one point in my life was quite attracted to Legolas. He's a cool character. But in Lord of the Rings, he's also kind of a nothing character. Like, he doesn't.
• 22:53
  Speaker A: Especially in the first movie.
• 22:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. He doesn't have a whole ton of personality. He's kind of just there to, like, look cool and do cool shit.
• 23:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 23:01
  Speaker B: But in these movies, it feels like they're trying to give him some kind of character arc. And I would expect that to result in a more, like, I feel like he should be closer to an Aragorn type character in Lord of the Rings because he has experienced the traumas of these movies, whereas in Lord of the Rings, I don't get. I've experienced the trauma of warfare and death and lost love from that man.
• 23:34
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And also. Yeah. Cause the whole thing, his whole storyline in this wraps up with him essentially not going back to Mirkwood.
• 23:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Speaker A: Because.
• 23:47
  Speaker B: He'S like, no, I can't go back.
• 23:48
  Speaker A: For some reason, I'm not even actually exactly sure why he decides he can't go back. Like, he's. He's annoyed at his dad for being, like, a. An isolationist and, like, a protectionist because Toriel ends up kind of convincing Legolas that they should go and, like, help defeat the evil forces or whatever, whereas Tariel is, like, an isolationist. Let's just go live in our woods in the Thranduil. Sorry. Yeah, Thranduil is like an isolationist who's like, let's go. Go just shut our gates and live in our little forest castle. And so at the end of this, Thranduil wants to leave because he's seen all the elves are dying in the battle. And then Tariel stands up to him and is like. And he tells her not to go help. And then she's like, no, I'm going to help, blah, blah, blah. And then Legolas ends up siding with her. So you get this idea that he becomes kind of a little bit of a rabble rouser. Yeah, to some extent. But the thing that's interesting is that from my understanding, and this is where my knowledge is lacking. So somebody who maybe knows more about the expanded Lord of Lord of the Rings or has read the Lord of the Rings books more recently. Cause it's been a while. Or even seen the movies more recently. Cause it's been a while. I thought he gets sent to the council by his father.
• 25:01
  Speaker B: That was also my impression.
• 25:03
  Speaker A: Like, he is the emissary for the Mirkwood elves. Correct.
• 25:06
  Speaker B: Of what was happening at the council of Elrond in fellowship of the Ring, was that. Yes. He was the emissary from Mirkwood.
• 25:13
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 25:13
  Speaker B: Now, a lot of time passed, so other things happen within there. Other things happened. Maybe he does a little bit of.
• 25:19
  Speaker A: Growing and he goes and he talks about it. He goes back to Aragorn and then he comes back. Sure. But it does feel incongruous.
• 25:25
  Speaker B: It does feel very incongruous.
• 25:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's a good thing.
• 25:29
  Speaker B: That annoys me, given how hard they went with making sure that everything was connected to Lord of the Rings in these movies. It annoys me. Like the arrow and the bow annoys you.
• 25:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of Tariel, I mentioned in the first, or I guess in the last episode because again, she's not in the first movie, but in the second episode of the series that I actually liked the Keeley and Tariel stuff just fine in that movie, but boy, it does nothing for me in this one. Any chemistry I thought they had in that film evaporated. Apparently, between that film and this film, all of their interactions in this feel stilted and terrible and which a lot of people felt that way the whole time. I just thought they had some, I don't know, something about their energy in the first scenes they have together in the. In that second movie kind of worked for me, but it does nothing in this one anymore. And then, so in the beginning of this movie, after they have their. After Smaug is defeated, he's like, I'm going to the mountain, blah, blah, blah. You should come with us. And she just shoots him down and then runs off with Legolas. And I'm not sure what to get from that because she doesn't. They don't reunite until the very end of the movie. And then she loves him and realizes she loves him. I don't know, it just. It's. And then here's the other thing I had forgotten that Keely died at the end.
• 27:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:03
  Speaker A: And so it made me care even less because the. So the whole thing I thought was kind of interesting about their relationship was, oh, exploring an interracial relationship in the world of middle earth. And how do other characters view that? How are they gonna get. You know what I mean? Like, are they gonna get judged for being ticket blah, blah, blah? And that is what they movie is doing, because thranduil is very clearly, like, judgmental about it. Legolas is judgmental about it, all this sort of stuff. But then they end up not being together for the vast majority of the film or even interacting like that.
• 27:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, they do nothing with that.
• 27:39
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 27:39
  Speaker B: We don't even explore it from any other angle other than, like, oh, the dwarves are kind of racist.
• 27:45
  Speaker A: Like, well, and the elves, or the elves are rather a couple little throwaway lines of the elves being like, but he's a dwarf. Like, you know what I mean? But then it never really does anywhere. But then it all just comes back at the end. And we're supposed to, like, deeply care when Kili dies, not even for Kili, but for her, because she loved him so much, and she starts crying over him. And then Thranduil comes in and goes, you know, and, like, this is supposed to be the arc here, is that Thranduil comes to see that she did actually love him and that love is possible between the races or whatever. Like, that's the big moment. But it just. The fact that you then kill off your one interracial relationship feels weird and bad. And, again, it ultimately leads nowhere. And I guess the idea is that Thranduil's a slightly better person now because he watched his. One of his subjects fall in love with a dwarf, and then that dwarf die, and it softened his heart a little.
• 28:49
  Speaker B: I guess his heart grew three sizes.
• 28:52
  Speaker A: I don't know. I just ultimately found myself not being able to care.
• 28:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. I truly could not force myself to care about Toriel and Keely. The movies did not at all do enough work to make me care about that whole thing. Yeah. Like, that end moment there after Kili is dead, and Tariel's like, why does it hurt so much? And Thrandle's all like, well, because it was real.
• 29:23
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 29:23
  Speaker B: And I feel like, yeah, I think you're correct that that was meant to be, like, a growth moment for Thranduil, which is kind of wild.
• 29:32
  Speaker A: It was weird. A weird way to use that relationship.
• 29:36
  Speaker B: Because the movies did not really do any work on either their relationship or the idea of exploring an interracial, forbidden relationship within this universe. It kind of ends up like, Thrandell's just, like, saying the thesis statement for us.
• 29:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. It's terrible.
• 30:01
  Speaker B: I also liked Bard's triumphant return a little more in the book where he kind of just like appears out of the mist and the darkness to announce that he's actually not dead.
• 30:14
  Speaker A: It's way more dramatic because in the movie he's just kind of helping every, like, I don't think there's even a mo, is there?
• 30:18
  Speaker B: Well, I don't know really if we're supposed to think because it's like broad daylight and he's in the middle, they're in the middle of the crowd because we first see him when he, like, he like grabs Albert, the little toady guy. Not grimo wormtongue. Yeah. He like grabs his arm to stop him from doing something. I don't remember what now because the scene was so forgettable.
• 30:41
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:42
  Speaker B: And then it like pulls. Oh.
• 30:44
  Speaker A: Cause he's gonna attack that other woman. He's gonna hit a woman.
• 30:47
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:47
  Speaker A: Who's like, the woman is like, I think it's, she's like giving him shit for helping the ma. I don't know, she's like arguing with Albert about something and he's like, how dare you? And he goes to like hit her.
• 31:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 31:00
  Speaker A: And then bard like grabs his arm and is like.
• 31:02
  Speaker B: And we like, so the camera like pulls back to reveal like, aha, he's not dead. But again, broad daylight and he's in the middle of the crowd. So like, was that just for us?
• 31:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, because, yeah, in the book it's very dramatic, which would have been a lot of fun. It's very reminiscent of the, of Aragorn returning when he's not dead. And in the very midst of their talk, a tall figure stepped from the shadows. He was drenched with water. His black hair hung wet over his face and shoulders and a fierce light was in his eyes. Bard is not lost. He cried. He dived from Escaroth when the enemy was slain. I am Bard of the lion of Gerion. I am the slayer of the dragon. That would have been fucking hell. Yeah, but, yeah, they don't do that.
• 31:47
  Speaker B: There's also a little moment in the book that I really liked. It wouldn't have made any sense to be included in the movie because we would have needed a narrator or something. But I really enjoyed the description of the dragon bones in the water. I thought it was a great visual. They removed northward higher up the shore forever after they had a dread of the water where the dragon lay. He would never again return to his golden bed but was stretched cold as stone. Twisted upon the floor of the shallows. There for ages, his huge bones could be seen in calm water amid the ruined piles of the old town. But few dared to cross the cursed spot and none dared to dive into the shivering water or recover the precious stones that fell from his rotting carcass. I just thought that was a really cool visual.
• 32:46
  Speaker A: It is, because it evokes, I think, a very specific primal fear that a lot of people have. I couldn't remember the name of it. Thalassophobia. I don't know if you know what that is.
• 32:54
  Speaker B: Fear of things in water.
• 32:56
  Speaker A: Specifically in deep bodies of water. And it's an intense fear of deep bodies of water. But it also often relates to things being in deep. So like the idea of like an old shipwreck looming up out of deep, dark water as you're swimming. And it just kind of appears out of this deep, vast nothingness. That language evokes a similar. Which. The lake is probably not that deep, but you know what I mean. It evokes a kind of similar feeling which I think is a very. The kind of thing that a lot of people have a sort of innate primal fear of which is creepy things underwater is not what we like.
• 33:37
  Speaker B: I also want to talk again about the timeline of this movie because it's, again, sped up from what it is in the book because I felt like maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm misremembering. I felt like in the book they went for weeks at this stalemate before the Iron Hill dwarves. And then the Orc Goblin army gets there. Like they're where everybody's just kind of like hanging out on the precipice of war.
• 34:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. So this, we've jumped forward to the point where, just to catch people up. We've jumped forward to the point where everything's dead. Thranduil shows up, helps the people of Laketown and then the people of Laketown and Thranduil all march to the mountain to go investigate what's going on over there and try to get the money so that they can, they assume thorn and them, like, the dwarves are dead.
• 34:24
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 34:25
  Speaker A: So they think that, well, we can go get, like, the treasure from the mountain and. Or if they're not dead, we can go talk to Thorne and get our gold that he promised us for helping.
• 34:34
  Speaker B: Yeah. So we can rebuild.
• 34:35
  Speaker A: So we can rebuild. So that. Yes. And then when they get there, Thorne is like, fuck off. And so, yeah, they sit in a stalemate for like a while.
• 34:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 34:44
  Speaker A: I don't know exactly how long it is, but it's definitely a while.
• 34:47
  Speaker B: Like. Yeah, it's a while. And then in the movie, I feel like they're there for, like, a day. And then Dane shows up and, like, I look, I get it. It. I get it. I understand. But it's also one of those things that makes me feel like the whole thing just doesn't make any sense. Like, how is everyone getting around so fast? What are the rules? How far away are things from different things? Like, I feel like. I don't know.
• 35:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. The condensing of the timeline, just as I've said a thousand times at this, it's. I don't have a huge problem with it other than the fact that it makes the whole story feel less epic.
• 35:28
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker A: Which I think is a problem, particularly in the movies where they're going for a slightly more epic tale on the scale of, like, the Lord of the Rings movies, which are this epic thing that take place over the course of, like, a year or whatever or something like that. So in this, a little slight character tweak that I put this in better in the book only because I thought it was a really interesting character moment for Thranduil in the book, who's only ever referred to as the Elven King. But I understand changing it for the movie and why they did it is that in the movie, Thranduil feels wronged by the dwarves and has, like, a grudge. Also, he's racist. So he's both racist and has a grudge with the dwarves over some treasure from the past or whatever that he once. And so the movie makes him the primary motivating or agitating force in trying to go to war, attack the mountain, Erebor, and attack Thor and his band of dwarves and get their treasure. Whereas, and in the movie, Bard is a little more like, hey, let's wait. We don't need to be rash, blah, blah, blah. Bard's, like, the level headed, like, guy in the book. It's actually kind of the opposite. And there's a very specific line in the book. And this is why I have it in the book has been, I thought was really interesting that Thranduil isn't thrilled or the elven King in the book doesn't love the dwarves. There's still that antagonism towards dwarves as a whole and all that. But there's layers to him that I actually kind of like in that he goes in the book. Dane has shown up at this point in the book. It's not like a surprise reinforcement kind of thing. Dane shows up, and they realize they're coming. And I believe Bard is like, we should attack them. Or the Laketown people are like, we should attack them while they're, you know, while they're trying to get to the mountain or whatever. And Thranduil has a line where he says, I would. What is the exact. I don't know. I didn't write down a page number, so I'm trying to recall this from memory, but he says something along the lines of, I would forestall a battle forever if its goals were only gold, or something like that. He basically says, like, I'm not going to war over gold. Like, this is stupid. Like, I'm not going to attack them because we want some gold. Like, he basically is like, you know, all other things aside, I'm not going to start a war over some money, essentially. So I like that thranduil in the book has these kind of. Even though he is, you know, again, I don't think the movie version of Thranduil is completely dissimilar from the book version, but they definitely make him be like, fuck this. Let's kill him. Let's. We want our money. And I hate dwarves, so let's go to war. Whereas in the book, he's like, I hate doors, but, like, we're not starting a war over gold. And I just thought that was kind of an interesting nuance to his character that the movie abandons. I understand why. And in terms of, like, how these characters operate within the script of the film of Thranduill as being a more direct antagonist and Bard being kind of like an everyman character, like, audience kind of identificate. Like, you know, we like Bard. We want him. He seems like a humble leader who, like, we want to succeed or whatever. But again, I did like the nuance in the book, that little element of his character.
• 39:03
  Speaker B: Okay, so this is the thing that threw me for a loop in the movie, I think Gandalf talks about how the reason that there are these orc armies bearing down on the lonely mountain is, it's because it's in this super strategic position, and Sauron is gonna want it for his oncoming war of darkness.
• 39:28
  Speaker A: The explanation being that Angmar is behind is to the north of the mountain. And somehow this will allow Angmar to rise again, which the witch king comes from. Angmar. I don't know enough about the lore to know how that is all relevant.
• 39:40
  Speaker B: And I don't recall that being mentioned.
• 39:44
  Speaker A: Oh, no, no. The strategic position of the mountain.
• 39:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, the strategic position of the mountainous.
• 39:49
  Speaker A: Well, because we don't ever get anything about the Necromancer or Sauron. So we have no reason to know anything about why any of that's going on.
• 39:59
  Speaker B: But the explanation that the movie gives is that it's in the strategic position. So everybody wants the mountain. Yeah, but. And correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think the lonely Mountain is ever mentioned once in the entirety of the Lord of the Rings films.
• 40:15
  Speaker A: I think it is, but only by, like, Bilbo mentioning that he went on a trip. You know what I mean? I think it's mentioned in passing in reference to the story of the Hobbit, but not at all in reference to what is currently going on with Sauron or anything else that has happened. Yeah.
• 40:33
  Speaker B: And, like, it's another one of those continuity things that just, like, annoys me. Like, if it was really this super strategic location that is really important wouldn't it come up again in the great war of.
• 40:53
  Speaker A: Well, because. No, especially. Well, yeah, because no. Sauron, which makes. Yeah, it makes less than no sense. Well, I say less than no sense. There may be some weird deep cut canon for why that. Actually, that is the case that just doesn't make it into the movies or something. But. Yeah, because, I mean, the seemingly most important vital places in the Lord of the Rings movies are of Minas Tirith in Osgiliath because it's literally right outside the gates of Mordor, which is where Sauron is raising his armies. And there are armies in other places. And like I said, the witch King is from Angmar and supposedly Angmar is in the north, up above the lonely Mountain. So maybe having the lonely mountain allows Angmar, the witch king to get more of a foothold. I don't know. I don't know. But it does. I completely agree that the fact that it's just never mentioned in the movies at all, which again, is what we're comparing here. We're talking about movie like. Yeah, we're talking about the Lord of the Rings movies. The fact that it just never comes up in those movies at all as anything of importance.
• 41:52
  Speaker B: Weird.
• 41:53
  Speaker A: Seems like a weird choice considering this movie is like, no, it is important. I guess the idea would be that, well, they won, so.
• 42:01
  Speaker B: Right.
• 42:02
  Speaker A: It's fine. We don't need to worry. You know what I mean? Like, I guess the idea would be that because they won the battle here at the end and defeated Sauron's forces, we don't have to worry about it anymore, I guess would be the argument.
• 42:15
  Speaker B: Maybe I don't know, but it still. You'd think it would come up.
• 42:22
  Speaker A: Yes, you would think. The problem I had with the battle is that in the book, Dane's forces show up before the battle ever starts. And, in fact, they're. The reason the battle starts is that they show up and then they attack the elves briefly. And spoilers in the book, they don't even come to blow. Like, they start charging. And I think a few arrows get shot off, and then immediately they all stop because the orcs show up is how it's described in the book. In the movie, they fight for, like, a while. And, like, a lot of them die before the. Before the orcs show up. But in the movie, they also do this thing where, like, they're all standing, sieging Erebor and Thorin standing there. And he keeps, like, looking because he knows he's got a message from the raven and he knows that Dane is coming, but he keeps looking over out to the west or whatever, over this hill. And I hate that we're doing the reinforcements, showing up over a mountain to swing the tides of battle. We did it twice in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
• 43:27
  Speaker B: Why not revisit it?
• 43:28
  Speaker A: We don't reread it again. And also, the hill almost looks identical to how it does in the two Towers movie where it's like this big, empty, barren hill with rocks. It almost looks identical. That's fairly steep, but not so steep that people can't come down. It's identical in a way that I found really frustrating that we do the exact same beat of. And surprise, here's a whole army appearing over a hill that you didn't expect. It's like, okay. And I get it's a fun, dramatic moment, but it just. It's not a fun, dramatic moment because you know that that's gonna happen because we've seen it twice already. It happens literally at the battle of Helms deep, which is great. And then it happens again at the battle of Pellinore Fields.
• 44:11
  Speaker B: And it's not even really that fun of a moment in this movie because you're not really rooting for the army coming up over the hill. You're kind of like, why don't you guys just not.
• 44:22
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that's the thing. And that was actually a funny thing that I thought is that during that moment, and that's one of the things, tonally, that makes this movie so interesting is that when they show up, we get these big, triumphant music things like we're supposed to be like, yeah. And I'm like, but, no, this is bad. And it just. But I don't feel like that's an intentional tension. Like, I don't think the movie is doing that intentionally to make you think about that.
• 44:48
  Speaker B: No, it just feels like. I don't get that vibe at all.
• 44:51
  Speaker A: That's not at all what it feels like. It feels like the movie just goes well. This cool army crests over the mountain. We gotta play, like, a badass theme, you know, theme music. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't work at all. Also, this is Dane's army that shows up, who is the cousin of Thorin. I hate that. Dane is a completely CGI character.
• 45:12
  Speaker B: Stupid.
• 45:12
  Speaker A: He's just a dwarf. He's just a dwarf with a long beard. Just make. Just do a makeup on him. It's Billy Connolly playing him. I think he does a fine job. I think he's fun as Danehorn. Just make him an actual guy. Like, I understand he's riding a warthog or whatever. So you gotta cg that part. You gotta CG that part. But that's fine. You can do that. Just have him be a dude in makeup in a costume and whatnot, and then cg him onto a CG warthog. Put. It's just, I really hated that. I get it with Azog or Bolg or whatever, these giant, like, ten foot tall monstrosities that are Yddev. Like, I would even prefer for them to be makeups, but I can at least. I can at least understand why with their character designs, why you would make them a CGI character. But it's a nightmare to make just a dude with a red beard a completely CGI character, in my opinion.
• 46:11
  Speaker B: I share that opinion. There are dune worms in this.
• 46:17
  Speaker A: There are?
• 46:17
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 46:18
  Speaker A: I wrote the same thing. I was like, wait, wait. There are giant worms now, I didn't remember this from the first time watching this movie. To be fair, I remembered almost nothing from the first time watching this movie. But I looked this up and I was thinking this might be because I forgot to mention at the top. But we did watch, we mentioned it in the prequel. We watched the extended version this time.
• 46:36
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 46:37
  Speaker A: So this is the extended version of the film, which has, like, 20 extra minutes worth of stuff. And I wondered if maybe this was part of it. But I don't know how it would be now that I think about it. Cause I don't know how else they would explain the army being there, because what the worms do is they end up drilling these holes through burrowing holes through the earth and they create these tunnels that the orcs then all pour out of, which I actually thought was kind of cool. And apparently these are a thing from the books. And apparently Bilbo mentions them in this book. He calls them wire worms or wereworms or something like that.
• 47:12
  Speaker B: I don't remember that at all.
• 47:13
  Speaker A: I looked it up. They are a real thing, potentially from some desert area of middle earth or whatever, but I don't know, it's whatever. And I also, the issue I had with it is, apart from being like, wait, there are giant worms and just kind of making you go, is this. I guess this is a thing which is kind of distracting. I also really liked in the book how basically what happens is a giant swarm of bats and dark clouds kind of like, swoops over the sky and Gandalf, like, stops everybody. That would have been a great moment. I was expecting that to happen where Gandalf slams his staff down and a giant blast of light goes off and everybody's like, oh, fuck. What? And then they realize that a giant army is approaching.
• 48:01
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 48:02
  Speaker A: I thought that would have been cooler.
• 48:04
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 48:05
  Speaker A: But I understand the impulse at least to be like, oh, there's these cool creatures that we've never seen that they mention that are potentially canon. Let's show those. I get the idea. I just don't. I probably wouldn't.
• 48:17
  Speaker B: I mean, I get the idea, but like you said, it feels so out of pocket for this universe that it just really takes you out of it. It also didn't help that we just watched Dune.
• 48:30
  Speaker A: Yes, that's fair. Yes. Yeah.
• 48:34
  Speaker B: So nonetheless, in this film, the Orc army has arrived. And the dwarves immediately, like, turn around into a shield wall.
• 48:42
  Speaker A: They pivot and go over to face the orcs.
• 48:43
  Speaker B: Yeah. So they do their shield wall and there's this moment of tension like, oh, are the elves gonna. Yeah.
• 48:49
  Speaker A: Bilbo's like, are the elves gonna help? Or are they just gonna help?
• 48:52
  Speaker B: Are they gonna jump into the fray? And I was fully expecting to see a volley of arrows go over the shield wall into the Orc army. But nay, nay, nay. What happens instead is a bunch of elven warriors jumping over the shield wall.
• 49:13
  Speaker A: Yes. Rendering it pointless, which I will grant.
• 49:16
  Speaker B: You looked cool but so stupid in practice.
• 49:23
  Speaker A: It's so dumb, I couldn't believe it. And now here's the thing. I think that's actually even a reference to the prologue of fellowship. I'm pretty sure in fellowship that exact thing happens in the prologue or something like that where the elves have this line of shields and a bunch of elves jump over it. Maybe I miss something like that happens. So I think it's kind of a reference to that. And also the very clear point is that it's a very dramatic moment of revelation of, look, the elves are here to help. They actually did help. Look at the elves and dwarves uniting to fight. But they're uniting in the dumbest way possible because that is the worst. Why would you do that? There's a whole shield wall set up.
• 50:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Now it's pointless.
• 50:06
  Speaker A: Now it's pointless because then all the dwarves go charging into them with their giant lances or whatever and I'm like, why would you. The shield walls point is that it helps defend against the charge and now it can't do that because you just jumped over it and are standing in front of it. Oh, it's so stupid.
• 50:23
  Speaker B: I know. I think we may have unlocked the real reason that dwarves and elves don't get along because they went through all this trouble of setting up this really good shield wall. And then the elves were just like.
• 50:37
  Speaker A: Nah, nah, fuck that. We're just running out there and they're like, why? Come on, guys. It is real dumb. It's so dumb. And because you're right, they could have done the exact same thing and had it still have a lot of impact and be a cool moment if a whole wall of arrows came over.
• 50:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, you're like waiting, waiting, waiting. Maybe you hold it just like a beat longer and then, whoosh. This whole wall of arrows.
• 51:00
  Speaker A: Well, because then you can even do the thing too, if you have a whole wall of arrows. If you want to make it dramatic, have it be this big, cool visual moment. Take a note from. Which was out at this point from 300 arrows will blot out the sun, have a whole thing of arrows come over and it goes dark on the battlefield for a moment. Like, that's a big, cool, dramatic moment where literally the arrows literally block out the sun. There's so many of them. And then all these orcs get mowed down and then the dwarves, you know, and then you can, like, it's just, it's such an unimaginative, and I want to say unimaginative alternative. It's such a. Just a lazy way of doing that where it's like, it's just if you have any idea of, like, even a person who knows nothing about battle tactics would be like, why would.
• 51:47
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's like the opposite of the.
• 51:50
  Speaker A: Whole point of the wall is that.
• 51:51
  Speaker B: And they're supposed to be great warriors and, like, military tacticians, but, like, I don't believe that now.
• 51:58
  Speaker A: Yeah. So stupid.
• 52:01
  Speaker B: Anyway, so a battle is going on, and then the orcs divide up their forces, and some of their forces head over towards Dale because they're like, they can't fight us on two fronts. So they go towards the city. So bard splits off. He also goes towards the city, and then there's a scene where he rides in a wagon down a very steep hill to get to his children. And I wanted to like it, but I hated it.
• 52:34
  Speaker A: It's dumb. And he goes flying off it and impales the troll in the chest or whatever. It's very.
• 52:41
  Speaker B: I was like. And part of it, for me, like, there's several moments like this, like this one throughout this movie. And part of it for me was that I could just feel the movie's over eagerness in being like, wasn't that cool?
• 52:57
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 52:58
  Speaker B: Wasn't that cool? Wasn't that so cool? Wasn't that such a badass moment? It was so quiet, wasn't it?
• 53:03
  Speaker A: It just feels like they knew that the story, like, they knew they needed to build. They needed to prop the movie up somehow and make it feel worth an audience's while. So they just put so much of that kind of stuff in it. Which, again, is a fine moment. That one I don't really like, but I have a note about this later, or I think it's part of my final verdict. But those moments are fine when used sparingly. Yeah, but if you do it constantly, it ends up feeling. It gets boring, and it just feels ridiculous. It feels like you're watching something that has no grounding in reality whatsoever, which, again, it's. You know, I'm not here to play, like, the. Well, actually, that's not. But, like, it's not that. It's just that if you do it constantly, it loses its luster.
• 53:56
  Speaker B: No, I mean. And I don't want people to feel like we're like the fun police here.
• 54:00
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 54:01
  Speaker B: Like, we're not here to be the. Well, actually cops. But also, I think that part of what makes the original Lord of the Rings trilogy so good and so timeless is that it is very grounded in reality. And like you said, there are moments here and there, but they're kind of used very sparingly, and they're kind of reserved for a specific character. Who is that type of character, anyway?
• 54:27
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 54:27
  Speaker B: They're not happening constantly. They're not a mile a minute.
• 54:33
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 54:34
  Speaker B: And, you know, Lord of the Rings is like. It's very grounded in reality. Like in. Okay, well, if assuming this universe was real, what would actually happen here? And this series just chucks all of that out the window.
• 54:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. While also still being kind of crave, like slavishly committed to the aesthetic of and the. And the vibe and the overall feel of. Of the Lord of the Rings movies.
• 55:02
  Speaker B: Which invites so much comparison that these movies did not need.
• 55:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 55:11
  Speaker B: So Thorin at this point has been still struggling with his dragon gold fever or whatever they were calling it. And he and his other compatriots have still been holed up in the mountainous. And then at this point, he manages to break that sickness and they bust down the wall that they built. Tear down that wall. And there's all of this drama leading up to this moment. And Dane is out on the battlefield fighting and he's like, where's Thorin? We need Thorin. And there's all this drama built up to it. They smash the wall down and then twelve dudes run out. I get it. But it's also like, it's almost a comedy beat.
• 56:06
  Speaker A: Yes. And that was my same problem because I actually liked the way they built up Thorin's, like, dragon craze or gold whatever. Gold sickness, whatever. And I liked all that stuff. But I don't mind building up Thorn's decision to join the battle. But I think what the mistake was building up other people's expectations of him joining the battle.
• 56:30
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 56:30
  Speaker A: Like, dane is like, where's Thorin? And Bilbo's like, where's Thorin? And like, you know, like, because Bilbo at this point is out with Gandalf in the. Yeah, in the. In Dale, I think fighting or whatever. And so like, these other people were building up this moment of Thorin joining the battle. And in the book, it is a big moment because I have this in movie. Nailed it. But they do break down the gate that they built and come pouring out to join the fray, which is like a fun, dramatic haha, here they come moment. You know, like it's a triumphant moment where you get a cool music beat and all that sort of thing. It's, you know, it's kind of reminiscent of the, of the scene in Helm's Deep where Aragorn and Theoden like, ride out.
• 57:12
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 57:12
  Speaker A: He's like, ride out with me or whatever. It's kind of like that moment. But the movie builds it up. Like these twelve dudes are gonna turn the tide of this battle between hundreds and or thousands of soldiers. Like, there's thousands of orcs and elves. It's not. I will say this. I actually really appreciate the movie. It feels. I feel like they did a fairly good job of making the numbers feel like a real battle. Like on the battlefield. It's not like the force of elves is large and the force of dwarves is large. But it's not like, for example, in Helm's deep the force of Orc and Uruk hai that show up is like a never ending sea of orc which works in that thematically, in that of this there literally withstanding this never ending onslaught of evil or whatever. But I did appreciate and it feels the same way a little bit in the Battle of Pelennor Fields at Minas Tirith where the Orc army is just like seemingly never ending thing. Whereas in this, like the elf army and the Dwarf army you can kind of like see all of the unit. Like, you know, it's like the Dwarf army is like, I don't know, a couple thousand, a few thousand, maybe. The elf army is similarly like a few 2000. And then the Orc armies seem to be like two or three times that may. I don't know, but something like that. And I think they do a fairly good job of kind of showcasing the battle movements and the fields. I thought that was all kind of interesting and fairly well done. But yeah, then building up the fact that it's twelve guys are gonna come out and like, we need them. We need thorn and like there's this. There's this element of it. I understand. Because there is a truth to the idea of like rallying an army and having. Having the morale change because their king or whoever, you know, like a famous guy came to help them. Or like this big moment where, oh my God, King Henry is joining the battlefield or whatever where, you know, it can turn the morale of an army but it just, for some reason does not work. And like you said, almost plays like a comedy beat where it's like, oh, it's just like twelve guys.
• 59:22
  Speaker B: Like twelve dudes.
• 59:24
  Speaker A: Most of which are actually, as we've been told numerous times, not good at fighting.
• 59:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Most of them are nothing actually. Even like soldiers, warriors.
• 59:32
  Speaker A: No, they're just like people that are on the mission with them. There's like three or four good. It's like Thorin, Fili, Kili and the other guy, Dwalin. I can't remember the one guy. There's like four of them that are like good soldiers because they even make a point right after that where when they go to charge up the Ravenhill to go fight Azog. I think Gandalf says, like, thorin's taking his best soldiers and it's feely Keeley and the other one. And it's like, yeah. Cause the other ones don't really fight.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker A: And so it's literally like four dwarves are gonna change the tide of this battle of thousands of people. Okay. I mean, it would be one thing again, it's one of those things where it's like, okay, if it had been. If he had a force of even, like a hundred or 200, like, that's the kind of number that could.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker B: That could change, could turn the feasibly.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker A: Turn the tide of a battle. But it's twelve guys, and ten of them suck at fighting, or nine of them suck at fighting. So I don't know, like, what?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, no. And on that kind of similar subject, too, I also feel like these movies really tell us a lot about what a great leader and military strategist Thorin is. But I don't know if it.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker A: We don't see it.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker B: We don't really see it. I don't know if that's earned.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker A: No, no, not at all. We just are told he is absolutely. There's no evidence of it. He's obviously, him charging out into the battle at the end here is a sign of his bravery. And the fact that all the guys follow, like, are, like, amped to follow him into battle and that everybody else is, like, rallied by his appearance, you know, is. Again. But that's more of just the movie telling us that he has a reason for all these people to trust him. But we never, like, what is the reason? Yeah, we never see it or really have any explanation of why all these guys are amped that Thorin is going to battle. Because it's like, all right, to be fair, we do see a little bit of it. The battle with Azothez, first movie where he cuts off Azog's arm.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker B: It's brief.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker A: It is very brief. But I want to give a little bit of. Just to be fair, there is the movie does a little bit of setting that up by showing us him winning that battle with the blog and all that. We do actually see a little bit of that because, to be fair, the book does the same thing. Yeah, the book does not show us fair, so it's at least accurate to the book in that regard.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker B: I just want to take a moment to address. There's a cave troll in this. In this movie. I think that that's what it's supposed to be, right? Like a cave troll. There's a troll, which I feel like we've established in the universe of these films are kind of like an animalistic.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker B: Like, it doesn't seem like they're choosing to be evil. It seems.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker A: No, no. More like they're more like a giant bear or something. Yeah. Yeah. But this, or like the Olafonts or.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker B: Whatever specific troll is blundering around the battlefield on two prosthetic legs.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker B: And they're fucking piloting him around like ratatouille with chains hooked to his eyes.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker B: What the fuck?
• 1:02:36
  Speaker A: I mean, the idea is that this is the cruelty of the orcs.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker B: Yeah. But then the dwarves do it too.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker A: Yes. Okay. That's fair. Yeah, that, that is where it gets a little weird because then bifur or somebody gets one of the go for one gets on top and is riding it around and it's kind of played like a comedy beat.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker A: Which that I agree with is like, ugh. Cause, yeah, that, yeah. Cause it is, absolutely. Cause initially you're like, oh, no. That, I mean, I think it's a pretty effective, like, you know, non expositiony, like, way to establish, to show how evil this orc army is. Yeah. They literally, they cut the arms and the legs off this thing and blind it and then ride it around in battle so that they can control it. And then, yeah, they attach, like, giant, like, maces to, or, like, I don't know the words, but flails or whatever to its arms and, yeah. So, like I said. But, yeah, once, once one of the dwarves gets on top and is writing it around and it's, like, kind of played for comedy. It's like, this is, it's gross. Yeah.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker B: I really, really, really wish that this movie would not have been so preoccupied with Albert the non Grima wormtongue.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker B: Grima wormtongue.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker A: What they should have done is this should have been the Grima wormtongue origin story. He should have become Grima wormtongue. Not really, but that's actually what I thought they could have done, is that if he got away and fucked off.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker B: And disappeared, it doesn't make sense. Unless he's also gonna live for a really long time.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker A: He could. We don't ever know. I don't know.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, you're right.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker A: We don't know exactly how long, what.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker B: He has going on. But this movie was like, we keep going back to this character who's not that interesting, who's not that interesting. And some of them are supposed to be, like, comedy beats, but they're not that funny.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker A: The whole bit where he dresses up like a woman to escape battle.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then he has the bra full of gold and he has giant gold boobs. And what are we doing?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's not great. Also, the way he dies, and I think this is maybe a deleted scene. I wonder if he just disappears in the movie, because I don't remember this at all. But the way he dies in this movie is that we see him, Bard confronts him, and this is the scene where he has all the gold and shoved in his chest or whatever, and then he jumps off a ledge. And then we cut to a different thing. And some people are fighting a cave, like Gandalf and Bilbo and some other people. Maybe not Bilbo, but Gandalf and some other people are fighting a cave troll in this, like, courtyard area.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker A: And we then see it just cuts to a shot of a trebuchet that's laying there. And for some reason, Albert is in the bag.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker B: Like, the fabric thing.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker A: The fabric thing, the sling or whatever that launches the thing. He's in that for some reason, and we didn't see him get in that. My only thought is that when he jumped off the ledge, he must have landed in that somehow, which doesn't really make any sense, but he's now in that. And then he's, like, struggling to get out. And then he drops the coin and it falls on the trigger mechanism, and it launches him into the mouth of the cave troll, killing the cave troll and him.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker B: And him, I guess. Yeah.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker A: And the whole thing is just, like, see this, what greed does, because it's a gold coin that launches the trebuchet. And I. When he fall. When he. The troll falls over dead.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker B: A bunch of coins spilling out.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker A: Spilling out. But it's just.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker B: It's just like the whole, like. And like, every single beat with him is just the same thing over and over again. And there's so much other stuff going on.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker A: It's like, why are we.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker B: Why do we. Why do we keep going back to this character? It's so irritating.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. I completely agree. Speaking of, this part that feels undeveloped, underdeveloped is this is the point I mentioned earlier where Tariel steps up and tries to stop thranduil from, like, leaving.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker A: And it just. And, like, her standing up to him. I'm just like, this is all so undercooked. I don't even, like, they've talked, like, once on screen, like, in the last movie.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker A: You know, like, literally, like, they just. And it was, like, one interact. I don't know. It all just feels so underdeveloped. And I. I don't care for any of it. This movie is. It's not.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker B: This is a mess.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker A: It is a mess. There's a whole stretch of scenes here that are just.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker B: I love that this. We're not even talking about the book. No, in this better in the book.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker A: Scenes here in the movie that are just insane.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker B: It's literally just dunking on the movie. Because what happened in this scene, I. There's.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker A: We just cut. This had to be a deleted scene. This had to be because it was missing. This felt like a deleted scene where they didn't have the rest of the connective tissue for it. And so that's why it got cut from the original edit. But in the extended edition, they're like, well, let's just put it in because whatever. But it makes. No, it just comes out of nowhere and there's no connective tissue for it. And I don't understand what I'm even supposed to get out of, like, what the setup for it is.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker B: But I. So, okay, so there's a dwarf and he's fighting one of the. He's fighting, he's fighting a giant orc guy, the big Orc guy. And he, like, headbutts him. Like, they smash skulls and then they get stuck. They get stuck together.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker A: But we don't know why.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker B: Right? We don't know why. Well, because initially I thought they were having just like, like they were pushing each other, like, like. Yeah, but then more dwarves run up and they start, like, trying to pulling on the other dwarf and we were both like, what is happening?
• 1:08:50
  Speaker A: They're, like, stuck together and then they.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker B: Eventually, like, walk the orc off a cliff. Off a cliff. And then bomber grabs him and pulls him down and then he's dead. The Orc is dead. And then the, the original dwarf whose head was stuck to the orc's head has, like, an axe wound blade, like, embedded in his.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker A: Well, he has an axe wound. And then bomber or somebody pulls up the axe blade and is like, here you drive, like, here's your axe.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker B: And we're like, tosses it.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker A: And then the other, and then the other dwarf gets it and goes, ah. And like, makes a joke and tosses it. But like.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker B: But, like, what happened there?
• 1:09:31
  Speaker A: This is why I think it was a deleted scene because I think they're missing a lot of the shots they needed to make the scene make sense.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker A: Like, we. I had no idea he had an axe in his hand.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker B: No.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker A: How did that happen? Also, how does he have an axe in his head, and it doesn't seem to hurt him. Like, as an axe embedded in his forehead. And he seems fine. I'd like. The joke is, like, I guess the doors have, like, hard head. They're hard headed or whatever. So, yeah, they have, like, thick skulls or something.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker A: Like, but also, we were both confused because we didn't even know who this dwarf was because he's one of the 13 goddamn dwarves that you never see.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker B: I was convinced that it was just a random dwarf from, like, dane's army.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker A: I thought the same thing. Turns out it's biffer. And I'm like, oh, that was biffer. I truly did not know what he was.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker B: Gun to my head. Who would not have been able to tell you that was biffer.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker A: Not only could I have not named him, like we said, we didn't even think he was one of the company. Like, I was. I feel like I've never seen this dwarf before. But apparently we had. I think that. I think they gave him that scene because he had had so little screen time. They were like, we got to give him something, and then it didn't come together. And they're like, all right, we got to cut it. And then in the extended edition, they're like, all right, we got to include this scene because it's the only scene this fucking dwarf gets anyways. So it's terrible. It makes no sense. It's not edited or shot, like, properly. It's missing a bunch of connective tissue to make it work as its own little moments.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker B: It's just another one of those, like, weird tonal moments where I'm like, this is like, a comedy beat, I guess.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. Which. It doesn't work because it's not funny. But I don't mind the comedy beat here in this moment because Lord of the Rings even did that in the battles while stuff's going on. This is in one of the more chaotic, fun parts of the battle. I think it fits tonally to have, like, a comedy beat here. Cause we do stuff like that kind of throughout. But the problem is that it's not funny. Like, it doesn't. The joke doesn't land. Cause it doesn't really have any. Like, we're not even sure what the joke is like. I guess it's that dwarves have hard heads. But again, we didn't see the axe, how the axe got in his head. Like, why was there an axe in his head?
• 1:11:40
  Speaker B: Yeah. I spent the whole scene wondering why their heads were stuck together.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's what I'm saying that's none of it lands because they don't. Yeah, they just didn't film it and edit it correctly. So it just. None of it works at all.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker B: Also. Okay, so at this point, Thorin has taken his strike team to go kill Azog. So him and Kili and Fili and the other one are all up on the hill. And there's a moment, and I would have to watch it again to make absolutely sure of what happened here. I'm not going to. Yeah, but I. But I swear on my life, there's a moment.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker A: Dwalin is the Dwalin.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker B: Okay, I'm not going to remember that. I swear on my life. There is a moment in this sequence where Keeley stabs an orc. I swear all my life I saw a stabbing motion and not a slashing motion stabs him. And then the orc's head pops off.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker A: I'll take your word for it. I don't remember that. So it's very possible. It's very possible. There are a lot of decapitations in this absurd amount of decapitation. Many decapitations, including this next scene where legolas decapitates like 300 Orc in one fell swoop. This is another one of those moments that is just so dumb. Legolas, which I don't necessarily mind. Legolas. Legolas grabs onto one of the evil bats and uses it to fly up to the top of this mountain area. But then. Which is already kind of. Whatever, but that's fine if he did that. But then he is able to somehow flip upside down. I guess the bat holds onto his ankles for him, which is nice of the bat, I guess, because he hangs upside down and pulls his little swords out and then starts like swinging his arms all over the place as he runs, as he is carried down a staircase, Bita's bat of hundreds of orcs making two perfect single file lines on either side of him as he swings his swords and cuts the head off like literally like 150 orcs in like 3 seconds. It's. So here's the thing. If this was the only thing like this in the movie.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker A: I'd be like, I probably wouldn't like it that much still, but I'd be.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker B: Like, fine, like, whatever, but it's one.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker A: Of 8000 million times it happens and it just gets. It's too much. It's too much.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker B: Speaking of.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker B: We didn't get to the part that everybody universally hates. When Legolas, he's on this bridge thing.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker A: He knocks over a tower to create a bridge so that he can get over to Tariel.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker B: Right? But then it starts falling apart and then he's running through the air by leaping on the falling stones as they're falling. Dude just becomes Mario in this part. This was the only thing that I remembered from watching this movie in theaters in 2014. When it came out, I was violently high and I could not comprehend what I was witnessing. I hate it.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker A: I. It's. I still don't care for it. I don't think it's the dumbest thing in the world. So the. Obviously the explanation is that because we established that, in which I guess is from the books, I don't remember. We must have talked about. I don't remember from the Lord of the Rings books. If it comes up that elves are.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker B: Incredibly light, I think that was from the books.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker A: Okay. Because in the Lord of the Rings, the first one in fellowship, there's the scene where they're in the pass going over the mountains and they're all trudging through 4ft of snow. And Legolas is just walking on top of the snow because he's so light and he doesn't weigh anything or whatever. Elves just have no mass or something like that. Which again, makes a lot of the other stuff they seem to do in these movies impossible. Seemingly, but whatever, right? Sure. Again, I'll forgive that. But so the idea is that because of his, the elven non weight that they have, that he can run up these falling stones because he doesn't weigh anything or whatever, which, like, again, sure, fine. But my issue isn't so much that it happens, it's that it just looks so floaty and ridiculous, really bad. Like, it just looks it. Even if. Even if I bought the, like, mechanics of what was happening were like, realistic, you would have to do it in such a better way for me to, like, actually for like, my movie watching brain to not clock it as something stupid. You know what I mean? Like, it would have to look so much better than it does for me to be like, oh, yeah, no, that makes sense. The fact that it looks like a ridiculous video game moment where like, the physics are breaking makes your brain go, well, this stupid.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker B: Well. And again, like you said with the other thing, if it, a, looked better and B was the only moment like that, it would be fine.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker A: Yes, but again, it's moment 4000 out of 5000 that Legolas has in these fucking moments movies. Speaking of a thing that drove me crazy, especially on this viewing that I didn't recall from the first one is that he gets over. He basically is now squaring off. Legolas is squaring off with Bolg because Bolg at this point has killed Kili and has thrown Tariel onto the ground. And she's. I guess, I don't know, she's wounded in some way, something, but. So Legolas rushes over to help her, and Legolas fights Bolg and he kills him.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker A: And I hate it.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker A: It's particularly lame one, because Legolas does too much in this movie already. But Tariel is right there. Why would she watched the Bolg kill, supposedly the character she loves? You're trying to tell us movie like this is. Is let her get revenge. Why would you have her get knocked unconscious and let Legolas kill Bolg when she has all the motivation in the world, according to you? Because she loves Keely so much that she hates that he was murdered right in front of her. She's just unconscious for this whole fight scene. Let her have revenge. It's so stupid.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker B: Well, and it's. It's so. And it's extra stupid because I think that would have gone a long way in helping the tariel plot feel a little better.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. At least a little bit.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker B: But I don't know, man. Tariel just becomes kind of weak sauce out of nowhere at the end of this movie. We've seen her fight. We know she's a capable fighter, but then all of a sudden, Kaylee deserves.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker A: She needs legolas to save her.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker B: It's like she doesn't know what she's doing.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's so stupid. It's so stupid.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker B: Honestly, my biggest beef with this entire endeavor might be that I don't really feel emotionally connected to any of the characters in this movie.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker A: It's true.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker B: Like, Bilbo would be at the top of the list, but even that, I'm.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker A: Like, carried entirely, almost entirely by Martin Freeman's performance.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And even that, there's so much other stuff going on that you don't have enough time to really even have enough time to form a strong emotional connection.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker B: I don't know, man. It just made me tired.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker A: I completely agree. Yeah. This. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of a total moment, tonal moment that I didn't think worked at all, that I assume had to have been a deleted scene because I feel like they. Which is one of those things where it's funny, where sometimes deleted scenes, I'm like, there's a reason this was deleted. Yeah, there's. We. Thorin is. Thorin has this big fight with Azog kills Azog but is mortally wounded in the process. Bleeding to death, Bilbo rushes over. They have their final moments where they have a conversation and Thorin dies in his arms and Bilbo fucking loses his shit.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker B: He's, like, weeping, weeping, sobbing, begging. Incredibly to go.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker A: Incredibly compelling performance. Incredibly compelling moment. Very well done. Again, the emotional heart of the movie which is not getting nearly enough time, but this incredibly intense emotional moment. And then we cut right from that. We cut over. Bilbo is sitting on, like, a piece of rubble staring at Thorin's body as the rest of the dwarves have now arrived and are, like, gathering around his body. And Bilbo sits down. Or Gandalf sits down next to Bilbo elbow. And there's this, like, 45 2nd beat where Gandalf is, like, scraping out his pipe. He's, like, cleaning his pipe. And it's. It's this ridiculous, like, comedy beat where Gandalf is, like, oblivious to what's going on. And it's just, like, scraping the thing. And Bilbo keeps, like, looking at him, like, what's your. What are you fucking doing, man? Like, he just looks at him like, are you. Are you serious right now? And then they kind of just look at it. And then Gandalf, like, realizes, I guess, that he's being weird and annoying. And they just kind of share a weird look. And then the scene ends and I'm like, what is this moment?
• 1:21:37
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker A: What is it?
• 1:21:39
  Speaker B: I don't fucking know.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker A: It's so weird.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker B: It's truly bizarre.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker A: It makes no sense that it's just the only thing I can think. I guess it's possible, like, I'm doing my best because I know the screenwriters and. And the director are talented people who understand characters and understand. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard to parse this because.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker B: I know that is what makes these movies so frustrating.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker A: That's what I mean. Yeah. Particularly this movie in particular. But because, like, I know that, like, these people are not just, like, terrible filmmakers. So, like, I know. So. But, like, I'm sitting there trying to, like. Okay. So. So I'm trying to, like, wrap my head around. I'm like, what am I supposed to be getting out of this? And the only thing I can think is that even in the throes of great traumatic, life altering sadness and despair you can still have these kind of weird little surreal moments that kind of take you out of that despair. Briefly. I'm being as generous as possible here. That must be what they're. I don't think it works at all. But I'm just trying to. Cause I do think there's a truth. Like, I'm just. Cause there's a truth to that. Like, there is, you know, if you've ever had an incredibly, like, traumatic, weird moment like that where somebody, like, died very suddenly in a way that is incredibly, like, kind of blind siding. And it usually, you know, there's this moment of intense, like, emotion and then, like, numbness and, like, there's all these different moments and some of. And within that, there can even be little moments of, like, awkward humor that you're not expecting that feel completely out of sync with the rest of the emotion of that moment. And I think that must be what they're going for. But it does not.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker B: It doesn't land.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker A: Does not land at all. I just have a couple more notes here for better in the book. And it's just some fun things that I thought that the book included that don't make it into the movie, which is that on their way back after all this is wrapped up, Gandalf and Bilbo make their way back to the shire and they stop off and stay at Bjorn's for a long time, for several weeks, if not months, and hang out. And Bilbo mentions that they spent Yule. And I was like, I need the Christmas at Beorn's holiday special. Like the Star Wars Christmas special. But it's like Christmas at Beorn's and they, like, hang out and they. I don't know, like, the animals come in and do, like, song and dance numbers and it's like this ridiculous. I think that would be a lot of fun. Christmas at Bjorn's. The Lord of the Rings holiday special would go super hard.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker B: I agree. I agree.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker A: There's another exchange that I have here in better than the book because it's another just perplexingly weird movie moment. I literally had to back it up and make you watch this again because you didn't catch it the first time. What was going on? When Bilbo says goodbye to Gandalf, they're standing at the edge of the shire in the woods, and Gandalf, they're having their conversation. And it's like. Like a conversation about, like, oh, blah, blah, blah. And then at one point, Gandalf or somebody, I think it's Gandalf asks him. The ring comes up somehow. Bilbo tells him about the ring. And then Gandalf says something about the ring. And the entire time, Gandalf's talking, he's not on camera. And then when it cuts to him on the last word of his sentence, the mouth doesn't really match up. So they very clearly adr'd his entire line there. Then right after that, Bilbo, Gandalf says, oh, farewell, Bilbo. And as Bilbo is leaving, he turns around and says, but don't worry, I lost the ring in the battlefield. It fell out of my pocket. So I don't know what happened to it. But that all happens from a wide, from behind Bilbo where we don't see him saying that. So he is very clearly not saying that. And then it cuts back to Gandalf in a close up and he says something completely unrelated to the line about the ring that Bilbo just said. And so very clearly for some reason, and I couldn't even figure out why they spliced in this conversation about the ring in ADR after the fact for some. I don't even understand why.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker B: I think it's a continuity thing with Lord of the Rings. It must be because I think they wanted to establish that Gandalf, that Gandalf knows slash suspects that Bilbo has the ring.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker A: It must be that because that's what.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker B: We see at the beginning of fellowship.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker A: Right. You know, but if that's the case, you knew that going. It's just wild to me that you wouldn't have thought to include anything about that at all at any point in the movie.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker B: Well, and have to do it in.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker A: Reshoots in post with ADR.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker B: And it's a little frustrating too, because I feel like as at that point, we should just trust the audience.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker B: Point blank.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker A: It's ridiculous. It's whatever. It took me out again, I was like, oh, God. Cause it's one of those, just as I assume general audiences. Cause again, you didn't really notice it. I assume general audiences probably wouldn't notice that. But anytime a character has that long of a line and their mouth, we don't see them say it. My brain just immediately from watching bad movies and being an editor of.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker B: You're like extra tuned to anybody.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. Extra attuned to that kind of stuff. So I just noticed that kind of stuff more than normal people. But oh my God, it was infuriating because it just didn't feel necessary at all. It's just like, we don't need whatever, fine. And then my final one is just that. This line that I used for the intro, I really liked. It's the final line of the book, and it doesn't make its way into the movie in any way, which is. So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings. I think it's a very nice, optimistic, hopeful note to end the book on.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker A: Not that the movie doesn't end on a hopeful note, but it just, you know, I don't know. I like that line. So. All right, let's go ahead and talk about all the stuff that we thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. Happy endings only happen in the movies.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker B: This movie has a false bookcase in it.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker A: Yes, it does.
• 1:28:23
  Speaker B: The master has a false bookcase. I also love a false bookcase. Would love to have one someday.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker A: One day we had an opportunity, but that was.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker B: That was a pretty crappy apartment. Otherwise, though, I don't think we would have wanted to live there.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker A: No. Were the apartment any better? We just. I got it because now I bring it up, people are going to be annoyed. But when we were looking for our first apartment together, we looked at this one apartment that was like a two story apartment that we didn't realize was two story. At first. It was like this tiny, little, crappy apartment.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker B: It was like a crappy second floor.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker A: Apartment, one bedroom apartment and second floor apartment. The kitchen was really the deal killer. The kitchen was like a closet, and I cook a lot. And it was literally.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker B: And it was not in a great area either, if I recall as much. That wasn't as much of an issue.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker A: But the biggest issue was. Yeah. It just. It was tiny. Tiny. Like, way too small. Like, because we even. And we. Our place is not big, but, like, it was just tiny. And the kitchen, like I said, was literally like a closet. There was, like, no counters. There was no. It was just. It was ridiculous. But what it did have was that it had a second bedroom, which was behind, like, a secret door.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker B: Yeah. It wasn't a bookcase door. No, but it was like a door that kind of, like, you could tell it was supposed to. To be, like, to kind of disappear.
• 1:29:45
  Speaker A: Into the wall, blended into the wall. And then when you opened it, there was a spiral metal staircase that went down to the first floor, and there was, like, a bedroom on the first floor that had, like, street access. It was so strange. And that room was also super sick because it had an entire wall of bookshelves.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker A: I felt like something out of a movie. It was so cool. If the rest of the apartment wasn't the worst apartment I'd ever been and would have had to rent it. It was just. It was.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker B: We were sorely tempted.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker A: So close. I was like, man, I literally just. This kit, it's not. This kitchen is not feasible. It's not doable. But.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it just. It just wasn't very nice. It was, you know, kind of dirty and dingy and falling apart.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. It just happened to have the coolest feature I've ever seen in an apartment while also being the worst, ugliest apartment in the world.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker B: So we talked at length about Bard killing the dragon and the arrow and all that. And I agree with all of your takes, but I actually liked getting the son involved.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker A: I thought that was a nice moment.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker B: I thought it was a nice moment because we have established that he's like a family man and a father and that's really important to him. So I liked that the movie kind of made it a family effort.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. I thought with what they did there with all the nonsense included, I thought the moment where the son, he uses his son's shoulder and then he, like, uses him to aim was like a clever way to do that. But I think you still could have achieved a very similar thematic thing. It may not have been as clever, but you could have done. Achieved a very similar thematic thing with having the wind lance be up there. And then something happens. The aiming reticle gets destroyed. I don't know. Something happens where the sun has to be involved in some. I don't know. You come up with something else that makes more sense. But I agree with your point that. Yeah, thematically, I liked it.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker B: The movie has the dwarves actually witness Smaug's demise.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker B: They see him fall into the lake, which I thought probably made more sense and kind of moved things along a little better than the book has a somewhat convoluted storyline where they're all just in the mountain wondering what happened. And then a raven shows up and is like, oh, actually, the dragon's dead.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. I love that. In the Tolkien universe, ravens make an explicit point that ravens are cool and crows suck. I thought that was funny. I don't know what they're like. Crows. Evil, awful bastards. Ravens. Super sick.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker B: Which I disagree with.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker A: I know. I just thought it was funny.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker B: Crows are cool also. I just thought it was funny. Yeah. But I also did like the line in the book at one point. Point, Thorin is talking about, like, the old wise King Raven or whatever, and he's like, may his feathers never fall.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker A: I had that exact line written down. I love that in this universe, the crows have their own, or the ravens, I guess, have their own religious kind of customs and traditions.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker B: I mean, if eagles do, why not ravens? Sure.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker A: It makes perfect sense. But I love that kind of little world building wherever. Yeah, that's like me.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker B: And really, I thought overall, the series lacked the fun. Like, Maya's feathers never fall, may the hair on your toes never fall out. Kind of little, like, world building.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker A: Turns of phrase.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker B: Turns of phrase that are just fun.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. I also, another moment that I liked with the raven in particular is that it helps Thorin. And in the movie, we see it like once or twice. Thorin sends it away at one point, point to send a message to Dane. And then when Dane gets there, it arrives. And that's how Thorin knows that Dane is there because the raven comes back. But the raven shows up several times in the book. And one of the things I really like is that it keeps trying to warn Thorin. It's like, sure, I'll take your messages, but you're being a fucking idiot, man. And I love it. Literally says, the treasure is likely to be your death, though the dragon is no more. And I just love this idea of, like, a raven squawking ominous warnings at Thorin. I was really hoping to see that in the movie because I thought that would have been awesome.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker B: I thought the part in the movie where the people of Laketown almost hang alfred was pretty dark in a way that I thought worked. And I liked that it gave an opportunity for Bard to show what kind of leader he is.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker B: I also liked the addition of Bilbo kind of asking, I forget which dwarf he asks now. The really old one, maybe.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker A: Oh, Balin. Yeah.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker B: But he like, because, you know, Bilbo has the Arkenstone, which Thorin is desperately searching for. And I like that we have him go ask, well, would it help if he had it?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker A: Would that cure his dragon signal?
• 1:34:38
  Speaker B: And he's like, yeah, it'd probably make it worse.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I also love that you can tell Balin suspects he has a look like, okay, yeah. Balin is the only other good character in these movies. I think Balin is kind of. And I think it's, again, really down to performance. And he gets more time. I honestly wish he would have gotten more time because I said in the first one, in the first episode, maybe my favorite conversation in that whole movie is because it gives us something of the characters and their motivations and what's going on was that conversation between Balin and Thorin and Baghdad where he's like, look, Thorin you don't have to do this. We have a good life in the Blue Mountains. We don't have to go take the mountain. Cause I really enjoyed Balin as a character. And I wish he would have gotten even more time than he did. But he still gets, like, the most of all the dwarves that aren't Thorin. But I wish he would have had more still.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker B: I also liked the moment between Bilbo and Thorin with the acorn.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker A: Yes, I had the same note.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker B: I thought it was very hobbity.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker A: Yes. He picked up an acorn to take home with him. And he specifically took it from Bjorn's so that he could take it home and plant it and then he could remember his journey. He said all the good and the bad stuff. I thought it was great. And I also just loved, again, one of the few scraps of actual pathos in the movie where we have a compelling conversation between two characters who have interesting character dynamics together and what their goals are. Where Thorin is being slowly corrupted by greed, but kind of briefly comes back to his normal self during this conversation, at least for a moment. And Bilbo just wants to go home. It's kind of compelling, and we just like, uh. Just give me more of that, please. I think it's a fun little detail that we find out that Gandalf gets his staff from Radagast because in the last movie, his staff got destroyed by saw on. It explodes. And this one after him and Radegast escape from. Or they're saved by Galadriel and them. Radegast gives him his staff and is like, here. And he's like. The top part gets a little wonky sometimes, which does happen in this. I don't know if it happens in Lord Rings. There's the moment in the fellowship where he puts the stone in it to white it up when they get into moral. But I don't know if it, like, ever doesn't work.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker A: In the Lord.
• 1:37:05
  Speaker B: Not that I recall, because I was.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker A: Trying to remember if they were making, like, a continuity connection there. Like it clearly is the staff he has in Lord of the Rings. But the fact that it doesn't work all the time doesn't seem to come back in Lord anyways.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, not that I remember. I liked that. And this is kind of going back to the previous movie. But I liked the fact that we gave a little more connection between Bard specifically and Thorin and the Dwarves. Like, the fact that Bard sheltered them when they got to Laketown. I think then makes Thorin's refusal to help feel much more personal.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I also really loved the little detail of when Bard comes to talk to them and try to get them to pay the money that they promised that they have their conversation through a little porthole in the gate. And I thought that was a clever way to show the distance between them. And it feels really claustrophobic. And viewing Thorin through it, he's really creepy. I thought it was a really effective way to showcase the dynamic between them while also being a fairly practical way of how you, you might do that. You know what I mean? Like, it felt fairly real. You could also just yell from the wall. But for them to have a private conversation in that context, it felt like a good way, like kind of an interesting way to do that.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker B: I liked that the movie amped up Thorin's obsession with the Arkenstone.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker B: And there's one scene in particular I was a little half and half on this.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker A: I say I had this in.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker B: There's one scene in particular where he's talking about it and he kind of starts to sound like smell.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker A: Not kind of.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker B: Well, it's kind of at first.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker A: At first? Yes.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker B: At first?
• 1:38:59
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker B: At first there's like a little hint of it. And I like, I made a note. I was like, oh, I like that. And then they immediately took it too far.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker A: They go to the point where he just starts talking and sounding literally like smaug. And that was my note. It was like, I don't mind the smaug voice idea, but they push it way too far.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker B: If they had kept it kind of, kind of subtle and interesting like they were doing at first, I think that would have been great. They went too far.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and they do. Cause it comes back again in some later scenes. And in the later scenes, they do do the version that's a little more subtle where he has that bass in his voice that's a little evil and off putting sounding, but it's not like literally just sounding like smog. But in that one scene, they dial it up to the point. I guess maybe they felt like they had to make it very obvious to the audience what they were doing.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker B: But I, I disagree.
• 1:39:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. I thought it was totally fine when it was nice. Just a little bit of it, just.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker B: A little hint to kind of send a shiver up your spine. So Bilbo at one point sneaks out of the mountain. And I did like the way that he sneaks out in the book where he, like, goes and he relieves Bomber of his watch. And then he's like, okay, I can slip out. Nobody's gonna be looking for me. And I did like that. But I thought his conversation that he has in the movie with Biffer, I think it's Bofor. Bofor.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker A: I think it's Bofor. Because I think Biffer's the guy with the axe and the head later who has a bigger beard and mustache. I think Bofor is the guy who is the guy with the hat. The weird hat.
• 1:40:34
  Speaker B: Okay, so Beaufort. So he has this conversation with Bofor in this moment. And Bofor's kind of like, you know, nobody would blame you for wanting to leave and get out here. And Bilbo's like, oh, no, no. I'll see you in the morning. And I thought it was this really nice, like, much needed, quiet moment of, like, a little bit of pathos, a little bit of an emotional connection.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker A: I also like too, that. Cause Bilbo's like, no, I'm not. I'm not leaving. And then Beaufort's like, all right, goodbye, Bilbo. He's like, sure you aren't. That was good. I liked, when they do go get all the. Eventually we see all the dwarves in all their armor and everything and we see that gloin is wearing the helmet that Gimli wears in the later movies which I thought was fun because, see.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker B: That'S the kind of fun reference that I like.
• 1:41:29
  Speaker A: They never pointed out. It's just. It's in the background. He just has it on. But, yeah, but yeah, for people. Gloin is Gimli's father in the universe.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker B: Another moment that I really liked. After Bilbo gives the Arkenstone to Thranduil and Bard and they come back to the gate to try to parlay and use that as part of their bargaining, Thorin gets really mad about this. And he's like, by my oath, I will kill you all. And Thranduil's like, your oath means nothing.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker B: I'm like, you know what? Fair enough. You've already walked back several promises. Fair enough.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker B: I also liked Gandalf's line when Dane shows up. And Bilbo's like, who's that?
• 1:42:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. He's like, he's Dane. He's Doran's cousin.
• 1:42:18
  Speaker B: And I forget exactly what Bilbo says.
• 1:42:20
  Speaker A: Bilbo just says, are they alike?
• 1:42:22
  Speaker B: Yeah. Are they alike? And Gandalf says, I've always found Thorin to be the more reasonable of the two.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. And Bilbo's like, oh, Jesus. Yeah, that's a great line.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good moment.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker A: Very good line. That is not in the book.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker B: I also really liked that the dwarves rode to battle on, like, massive mountain goats.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker B: That world building that I enjoy. Chef's kiss.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker A: Yeah. Dane is on a warthog, seemingly, but the rest of them are on, like, giant. Yeah. Like ram. Like mountains, which are cool. I loved the. There's a bunch of little details in this battle that I actually really like. All the things I complained about earlier in the first segment. But there is some stuff that I think is really cool. And one of them is that when the elves shoot all their, like, all right, we're going to attack them. And they let loose, like, thousands of arrows at the dwarves. And you're like, oh, shit. And then all of a sudden, these gigantic spinny arrow things come flying from over the hill that literally, like, chop all the arrows into pieces like a lawnmower. Totally ridiculous. I don't think it's based in anything in, like, history or anything like that, but very cool. I thought. I thought that was cool as hell. And a very, like, interesting. That's one of those things that is like, okay. I don't think that's based on anything in history. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think that's based on anything in history. But it feels plausible.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker B: Yeah, it feels right.
• 1:43:51
  Speaker A: Yes. It's one of those things that feels like. Yeah, that could. That could be. That seems reasonable. Like, that seems like a thing they could invent. And we also know dwarves are, like, clever inventors. They create all kinds of weird, you know, like, stuff. And so, like, that seemingly could be a thing they could create. And it's super cool. And then also when they land, it just, like, kills, like, hundreds of elves, which that was my only problem with it, is that I thought they went a little too hard in how much they fought.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker A: I think they killed too many of the elves.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker B: Seemed like they would have been far too depleted to then fight the elves.
• 1:44:23
  Speaker A: Cause the armies are not that big. And those things seemingly killed, like, hundreds of elves. And it's like, well, you just wiped out, like, a 10th of the army or something like that. But point being, I thought those were very cool. I thought those were awesome. And another thing I thought was cool is that I loved that the orcs, when they show up, they set up Azog sets up on Ravenhill, and they have these giant flag machine contraptions that they use to signal their army. Like, they blow a horn and then they move the flag signals to tell their armies what to do, which is a real, that's, that is based on a real thing, obviously. Like flag signals. But then also even using like flag towers. There was a, um, uh, during like world war two or before that may, I think it was before World War two. There was a system actually, this is kind of what the, um, the, the beacons of Gondor are kind of based on. If I had to guess, there was, in Europe, there was a system from my memory, there was a system of tower that had flags on them that they would coordinate in a specific way. And then somebody with binoculars on the next tower over would see it and then repeat it. And then they would pass a message like very early telegraph. Kind of like wireless telegraph essentially. I mean, it's just like giant flight. Anyways, point being, I thought that was super cool. And I liked seeing that included. And I also liked seeing the orcs have their own weird technology and stuff like that because that is a point in the books. They talk about like the goblins being very clever at creating a dastardly contraptions or whatever. So I liked that a lot.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker B: I thought including Dale in the battle was an interesting way to raise the stakes because in the book, the people of Laketown don't go to Dale. No, they have a little refugee camp outside of the ruins of Laketown. And I thought that having them there and then having the orcs turn to attack the city was like I said, like an interesting way to kind of raise the stakes on things.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker A: I also think it makes sense for them to go there because now the city, like the remnants of the city, they don't have to worry about the dragon anymore. So they're like, yeah, let's just go rebuild the city. Like, it makes sense that they would go there and seek refuge there and then, yeah, the orcs attacking, it all makes, I think, yeah, I totally agree. I thought that made a lot of sense. I really liked that the cave trolls that had trebuchets mounted on their backs and they would like get down on all fours and then launch shit. I thought that was super cool. Another fun little contraptions for the orcs, which was fun. A moment that I think this is the kind of moment of this that I thought was really cool and worked is that there's this moment where Thranduil is riding through the battle in Dale. I think at this point on moose, his, on his elk, the horse named Moose. And he is charging through a bunch of orcs and they all get caught on the antlers. And he picks them, the elk picks him up, and then he slices all the head off with one swing of his sword. That was great.
• 1:47:31
  Speaker B: That's a great kind of moment where it's not so ridiculous, but it's still.
• 1:47:37
  Speaker A: Kind of, it's like a heightened, silly, over the top action beat, but it doesn't feel so insane. Like Legolas hanging from a bat, cutting off the head of 800 orcs at once. Yeah, that seems reasonable. Like, it seems like that maybe could happen kind of. I don't know. I thought that was great. I do really like the giant gold floor in Erebor. While Thorin's losing his mind, he's wandering through the halls of Erebor and he ends up in the hall of kings where they tried to kill Smaug. And all the gold has hardened on the floor. So we get this giant golden mirror floor, which I thought was a really cool and also a great moment for Thorin to have his big breakdown and coming to, you know, where he does cast off his crown and overcome his dragon madness.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker B: I didn't really love the visual of him sinking into the.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker A: No, no.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker B: That didn't really work for me. But I did really like the visual of seeing the dragon underneath, like, in the floor. Yeah.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker A: Yeah. I thought that was cool too. Yeah. I loved the little detail in the battle of, at one point when they're going to charge up to Ravenhill, Kili and Fili and Dwalin and get on Dane's battle chariot thing that he has, which has an arrow machine gun on the front and then blades on the wheels and stuff. But they all get on this thing and there's this really badass moment where they're riding into battle against all these orcs. And as they're writing in, Keeley has it, has his sword out and he's sharpening it on the wheels of the chariot and, like, sparks are flying. That shit's cool. It's like that reminded me of something out of, like, mad Max or something that I thought that was cool. I'm not sure it makes any sense because I think they're, like, metal. We. I don't. I don't know. Maybe it does. I have no idea. But it. I don't care. Like, that's one of those moments where it looks cool enough and it seems plausible ish enough that I was like, yeah, let's go. That works. Also, a little thing that I thought was great is we get to see Bilbo throw stuff in this.
• 1:49:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker A: In the battle up on the hilltop on Raven Hill. At one point he starts chucking rocks at all the orcs and like knocking him unconscious. And I was like, yeah, it's great.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker B: So we saw in the last movie that the wood elves take Orcrist. Orcrist the goblin cleaver.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker A: No, that's glamdring.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker B: Glamdring the God and orcrist, the.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker A: No, no. Glamdring the foe slayer, orcrist the goblin.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker B: God, glamdring the foe Hammerhead, orcrist the goblin cleaver. And so we see that Thorin no longer had orcrist. And we also see that Legolas now is character because he had it at.
• 1:50:22
  Speaker A: The end of the last one.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker B: He had it at the end of the last one. And in this movie when Thorin is fighting Azog and Legolas is fighting Bolg. Bolg. What names? At one point, Legolas is like on the a rock placed bridge below where.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker A: Thorin is who's on a waterfall, frozen waterfall being threatened. And it's actually not azog. It's a different orc at this point.
• 1:50:53
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you're right. So Legolas dispatches Bolg or. No, he doesn't yet, but he doesn't matter. You can tell how confusing some of these sequences.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker A: Well, the action scenes are such chaos.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker B: Yes. But anyway, at one point Legolas looks up and sees that Thorin is kind of like in a tight spot. And he like returns Orcris to him and tosses it back up.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker A: Yes. He throws it into the chest of the orc that's about to kill Thorin.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker B: Which I thought it's a nice moment. It's nice.
• 1:51:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's a little. I didn't love the. That he like is. I don't know, it's fine that he like hurls it from that far away, like perfectly into the works. It's Legolas. So like, sure, fine. I don't know, it just felt. It felt a little like another thing that, like, just like one of those moments that Legolas has. But I did like, you know, getting it back to Thor and Thor and being like, nice. Now I got orcrist. I'm about to fuck this orc up. I loved. So in the book, Bjorn does show up and kill a bunch of orcs, including Azog, actually, or Bolg. In the book, Bjorn's the one who kills Bolg as a bear. But I really love that Bjorn comes riding in on one of the eagles with Radegast. When the eagles show up, Radagast is on one and Bjorn's on another one. And I love that he fucking paratroopers into the battle and turns into a bear in midair again. That's the kind of ridiculous stuff that I think feels. That feels right to me. Like Bjorn would be friends with the eagles or know them or whatever. And so him getting there on an eagle, I'm like, yeah, sure, that makeshi sense. And then, like, dropping in the battle and turning into a bear in midair, it's ridiculous and over the top, but it feels right. And again, this movie does have plenty of those moments that, like, to me, felt right. It just has a lot that also don't. But, yeah, I love Bjorn airdropping into battle as a bear.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker B: I like that this movie gives us a good final battle between Thorin and Azog. Cause we don't see Thorin's demise in the book.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker A: We show up and he's mortally wounded.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker B: On his deathbed already. So we don't really see what happened. There's not really any closure for that whole thing. I didn't care for the Azog pops back up from under the ice moment, but I liked the battle overall. And I liked that Thorin ultimately sacrifices himself in order to get rid of AzoG.
• 1:53:23
  Speaker A: Yeah, he's like, Azog is trying to stab him in the chest and Thorin is like, stopping him with his sword, but he realizes he's not gonna be able to, so he pulls or that he has basically he sacrifices himself by pulling his sword out and letting him stab him so that he can then stab Azog. I agree. I thought that fight overall is great. I like all the part where they're on the ice and he, I thought a lot of that's really fun and works really well and is a very, like, enjoyable fight. But I totally agree. I don't understand the whole part. After he knocks him in ice, like, I understand we have to kill Thorin somehow, but, like, so Azog starts floating under the ice past him and Thorin's, like, looking at him and, like, following him for some reason.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker B: I felt like he was trying to discern if he was dead, alive or not.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker A: Okay. Because to me, it felt like what they were doing was going for, like, a thing where. Cause it's almost. It's reminiscent of, like the scene with the gold in the king hall of the King with, like, the reflection in the golden where to me it almost felt like the movie was trying to do like a. Like he sees himself in Azog or something. That clearly makes no sense.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker B: So that can't be zero sense.
• 1:54:35
  Speaker A: Can't be what it is, but it doesn't really work. But I just don't. Cause him and Azog don't have anything in common at all. Like, there's no, like, part of Azog that is like, you know, the evil part of Thorin doesn't really resemble Azog. It's smog. Like the greed and stuff like that that makes his foil, his fucking, whatever alternate evil version is smog. It's not Azog. So it doesn't really make sense. But I just didn't understand. He just follows him awkwardly and then he gets stabbed in the foot. It all feels so strange. And then again, it doesn't really matter because this is a movie, but Azog is able to burst up through the ice somehow. Whatever. Again, who cares? It's like. But it just. None of that part made sense or worked for me. But in general as a whole, like, I just thought they could have worked some of those little specifics out a little bit.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker B: Some of the little things didn't quite work. But over overall as a whole, I thought it was a pretty good battle.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker A: It's a good, fun little fight.
• 1:55:37
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. We talked a little bit already about the final scene between Thorin and Bilbo in this movie. I liked it better than what happens in the book. I thought it was more emotionally impactful overall. I also think that their relationship and the handful of moments between them are the thing that works best in this movie. Absolutely.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker A: Without a question. Yeah, not even close. Yeah, by far all of their moments in this movie are the best parts of this movie. And, yeah, this final scene works great. And Bilbo or, you know, Martin Freeman is a great performer and it's sad. And, you know, they managed to make it heart wrenching. Even though I don't even care that much about Thorne. Like, as.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, you know what I mean?
• 1:56:22
  Speaker A: Like, I don't even care that much about Thorne as a character because he's kind of mostly just been an asshole for the most of it, you know? I just don't think they've done an incredible job with Thorin's character as a whole. But that being said, the moment still works, so they did a good enough job. I guess. I just wish we'd had more of it.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker B: Jumping forward a tiny bit, I was totally fine with the movie, shortening the section where Gandalf and Bilbo were traveling back. Yeah, I guess we could have had a little bit more of a montage. I do think it would have been nice if the movie had showed them passing back by the trolls, something like that. But overall, I was finally, yeah, it's fine.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker A: And we see some cool landscapes. There's some great moments where there's some really cool landscapes that we really hadn't seen that much of before. I love that when he does get back in the movie, he finds his monogrammed. What's the word?
• 1:57:17
  Speaker B: Monogrammed?
• 1:57:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, monogrammed handkerchief that he forgot. He's like, there's my handkerchief.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker B: And I did like, despite my feelings about how this series started, I liked that this movie closes back out where it began. And we go back to old Bilbo and Gandalf knocking on the door for the party. And I think the reason that I like this movie is because they didn't drag it out too much like they did in the first movie.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker A: Yes. It's also, in my opinion, like, perfectly edited, which is, there's very few times in this movie where I can say that. But this particular scene, I think, is kind of perfectly edited. Bilbo gets home. He kind of looks around his empty home, and then we have this shot of him, like, digging in his pocket because he just. Last thing we heard him say is that he lost the ring. We see him digging in his pocket, and then it cuts to a close up of his hand pulling the ring out. But it's very clearly an old hand.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker A: And then it cuts back to him. And now it's old Bilbo from. And again, I think it's just perfectly edited. And then we hear the knock on the door and we get the line, you know, we. No business except for whatever. Whatever the line is that he says. I think it's just perfectly. I don't think you could have more perfectly put a button on the movie than they did. And like you said, it doesn't overstay.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker B: Its welcome, which is very good, which is merciful.
• 1:58:43
  Speaker A: Yes. All right, let's go ahead and talk about the stuff that we thought the movie nailed. As I expected, practically perfect in every way.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker B: There's kind of a throwaway line at the end of the book where Gandalf tells Bilbo what he's been up to when he vanished from the adventure, and he tells them that he banished the necromancer. And the necromancer did, in fact, get banished in this movie. So that's accurate enough to what the book says happened, I guess. Truly, I do not understand the lore deeply enough to understand what exactly Galadriel was doing and why she was able to do that. But I guess this answers our question of why he was a humanoid shape in movie two, and then he's just a glowing, giant eyeball in Lord of the Rings.
• 1:59:42
  Speaker A: Yeah, I guess.
• 1:59:43
  Speaker B: I guess.
• 1:59:44
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I added notes about this because I have these notes here because I wasn't really sure what to do with them. But this is the whole scene where Galadriel and Elrond and Radegast, or no, Galadriel shows up and Elrond show up to save, and Saruman is there too. Saruman. That's the other person I was thinking of, not Radagast. Saruman show up to save Gandalf because he's imprisoned by the necromancer. And there was an orc interrogating him, asking him all these questions. I wasn't sure how I felt about this overall. It felt kind of like, super fanservice y. Like, this felt way more fanservice y than, like, just the white council scene did to me, where the white council scene is, like, one thing, but then having them, like, show up and, like, fight a bunch of, like, ghost ringwraiths. I enjoyed it. It felt a bit forced, but I didn't hate it. I did really like the moment where Galadriel, like, vaporized that orc who's like. She shows up and she walks up. Because I was really hoping she didn't, like, pull out a sword and try to sword fight him. It just didn't feel right for. She shows up and just holds her hand up and he just turns into goo. I was like, yeah, that's what I expect Galadriel to do to an orc like that. It also cracked me up because we mentioned in the prequel that there was a fun fact that the dummy that she carries when she's carrying Gandalf out, it's like a dummy that they made of him, obviously, because she couldn't carry Ian McKellen, but that every on the call sheet, he was called Michael Gambon because people mistake Ian McKellen and Michael Gambon for each other. But if you look at that, that dummy, it looks like Michael Gambon. Like, I think they may have intentionally made it look like Michael Gambon. Yeah. Yeah. She's able to, like, banish him or something like that. The only part of this that I didn't. I thought it was kind of interesting. She uses the light of a lindial, the thing she gives Frodo in the fellowship that he uses against, like, shelob and stuff. I didn't think the part where she goes evil, evil Galadriel mode worked as, like, I thought they shouldn't have done it because they do this thing where she goes. It's the same similar effect to what they did in fellowship where Frodo offers her the ring, and she's like, I would become a queen. Not evil, but powerful or whatever. And freaks. And Frodo's like, what the fuck? She does that in this for, like, longer. And that's like, when she banishes Sauron. And I don't know, I didn't feel like it worked for me like it did in fellowship. That's one of my favorite scenes in maybe all of the Lord of the Rings movies because it's just so unexpected and something. I just love the way the effects look and everything in that scene. I just love that scene. And in this one, it just. I felt like, well, I've seen this before. And also, like, it just didn't land in the same way for some reason. Like, I understand.
• 2:02:41
  Speaker B: I think they stretched it out too long.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker A: I think it was too long. Yeah. Cause I understand the appeal to have her do that, like, for real, like, against an actual foe and not just, like, as a kind of a temper tantrum or whatever. Like, I understand that, like, why you would want to do that. But I think that is the thing. I think they just drug it out a little too long. Been, like, a little snappier.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker B: But anyways, another thing that the movie does nail is the wood elves arriving and helping the people of Laketown.
• 2:03:10
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 2:03:11
  Speaker B: They show up and they're like, yeah, we'll help you.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker A: Yep. The movie does actually mention, which I. Cause I realized this reading the book that Bolg is Azog's son, they say he's his spawn or whatever, and the movie does mention that. So I was like, oh, okay.
• 2:03:25
  Speaker B: The family business.
• 2:03:26
  Speaker A: Because I didn't remember that in the second movie. Maybe they mentioned it.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker B: I thought they did mention it in the second.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker A: I missed it then, but I heard it. I noticed it this time. And maybe they did mention in the second one, but I wasn't to that point in the book yet, so I didn't connect it or whatever.
• 2:03:39
  Speaker B: But Bilbo gets his mithril vest.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker A: Yes. Mithril. Yes. We do get the scene because this is a scene I liked in the book where all the dwarves kit themselves out with armor and weapons and stuff. I thought it could have been a fun movie scene. The movie doesn't do all that much with it. We kind of see it happening in the background like while Thorin and Bilbo are having a conversation. Do they do get all their armor and stuff? Which is how gloin gets the helmet that he eventually gives to Gimli. They nailed the fact that they wall up the entrance to erebor create that big gate out of stone because they're such good stone smiths or whatever as dwarves.
• 2:04:17
  Speaker B: The warbats.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker A: Yes. The evil warbats.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. The goblin orc army has some warbats.
• 2:04:24
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 2:04:25
  Speaker B: Bilbo does give the Arkenstone to Thranduil and Bard to help them bargain with thorinous. I was pretty sure Thorin does try to throw Bilbo down the side of the mountain in the book.
• 2:04:37
  Speaker A: Yes. He tries to throw him off the wall that they're in. He's like, come here, I'll throw you off the wall myself. Yeah. And they also nailed the line that Gandalf says in response because Gandalf shows up and he says like, you're not making a very splendid figure, are you? King under the mountain? And starts taunting him for being an asshole.
• 2:04:55
  Speaker B: The movie nailed the fact that everybody kind of abandons their previous grievances to fight the orcs. The line from the book is the goblins were the foes of all and at their coming, all other quarrels were forgotten.
• 2:05:09
  Speaker A: Yep. Yep. Them knocking down said wall at the gate and charging in the battle is very similar to the book.
• 2:05:19
  Speaker B: Bilbo does get knocked out.
• 2:05:20
  Speaker A: He does eventually part way through. He's conscious for a lot more of the battle in the movie but yes, eventually.
• 2:05:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. He misses the end of the battle. At least, least the eagles do show up to help out in this battle. And I was thinking about it because obviously if I was going to be in the Lord of the Rings universe I would want to be a hobbit. Yeah, we've discussed this but I think if I couldn't be a hobbit, I would want to be an eagle.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker A: That's a very good second choice because.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker B: The eagles are always the cavalry. They just ride in at the very end of the battle in a blaze of glory and win the day and then they fuck right back off to whatever they were doing before that. Absolutely incredible.
• 2:06:04
  Speaker A: Absolutely. I think Tom Bombadil might be above the eagles for me. He seems like he leads a pretty chill ass.
• 2:06:10
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker A: Even bjorn to some extent.
• 2:06:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's fair. What was Tom Bombadil's wife named?
• 2:06:17
  Speaker A: I don't know. He just gets to fuck some hot blonde lady and then, yeah, she's like a river goddess. And then, like, sing songs and, like, drink milk and honey. Like, seems like he's living a pretty good life.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker B: Fair enough. Fair enough. We included the final scene between Thorin and Bilbo in better in the movie. But the movie actually nailed some of the lines that are specific to that scene, including Thorin's line to Bilbo. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
• 2:06:53
  Speaker A: Yes. I think they slightly tweak it in the movie. Cause I had that same note. And I wanna say he said, if more men valued home over gold, but I could be wrong. I'd have to go back and double check. But it was very, very, very similar, if not identical.
• 2:07:09
  Speaker B: Yeah. And you have a line here that I don't wanna leave out, which is that this is the thesis of the book.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker A: Oh, yes.
• 2:07:15
  Speaker B: It absolutely is.
• 2:07:17
  Speaker A: It is very funny that Thorin, literally, as he's dying, is just like. I will now spew the thesis of literally all of Lord of the Rings.
• 2:07:26
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 2:07:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. That cracked me up. That was that. As I thought about it, I was like, literally just like. If ever an author has been more blunt in stating what their whole book is about, I don't know. That's it.
• 2:07:42
  Speaker B: They do bury Thorin with the Arkenstone as well as Orkrendhenne.
• 2:07:47
  Speaker A: Yes. Yep.
• 2:07:49
  Speaker B: And then Bilbo, as he's leaving, tells all of the dwarves that they are welcome at Bag End at any time and that t is at four. And don't knock.
• 2:07:58
  Speaker A: Don't knock. Just come in. The Sackville Bagginses sell all of Bilbo's stuff.
• 2:08:04
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 2:08:05
  Speaker A: Including his spoons, which he's very upset about.
• 2:08:09
  Speaker B: He gets the spoons back in the movie. And in the book, it is specifically mentioned that he never got the spoons back.
• 2:08:16
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker B: So I think that's kind of a fun change.
• 2:08:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. All right. That is it for the movie. Nailed it. Let's go ahead and get to a few odds and ends before the final verdict. One of the things that I first noted, and it gets better as the movie goes on. But it particularly stood out to me in the whole scene where after Laketown is destroyed and all of the Laketown people are on the shore, it looked nothing like. Like, visually, the film, the color grading and the. The way it was shot looked nothing like the rest of the other two movies. The color grading was so vastly different for the first. Like, not the battle of even that a little bit, but particularly the whole scene on the beach where they're, like, all the. All the lake town people are there. It's, like, shot. Maybe it's an. I guess it's intentional look, but it's, like, super. The highlights and the lights are all super blown out. Like, everything's super overexposed.
• 2:09:25
  Speaker B: I did notice that it was really, really bright.
• 2:09:27
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 2:09:28
  Speaker B: In that scene.
• 2:09:29
  Speaker A: And the colors are kind of washed out in a. It's also, like. It's simultaneously kind. And I'm. Color is tough, and I'm bad at talking about it, but it's almost, like, simultaneously more washed out than previous movies, but also, like, oversaturated in certain ways. And it's kind of, like, overly contrasty. Like, they, like, I don't know, the rest of the movie once we get to, like, erebor. And the rest of it felt more in line with the previous two movies, but that whole sequence felt like a completely different. I almost wonder if. If it was. Oh, maybe that's a deleted scene and they color graded it. I don't know.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker A: Like, maybe that stuff all is not in the original movie. That wouldn't actually. That would not surprise me because I didn't remember any of that. So maybe that stuff isn't in the. I don't know.
• 2:10:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:10:15
  Speaker A: But it felt very different. It looked so vastly different than the previous movie. I was very confused.
• 2:10:20
  Speaker B: I'm who. I am hoping that maybe some of our listeners can let us know which scenes did not make it.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker A: I assume the person who recommended.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker B: I don't want to watch the theatrical cut to find out.
• 2:10:33
  Speaker A: No, I'm assuming, hopefully, that. I think it was Lassa or whoever.
• 2:10:36
  Speaker B: I think you're right. Yeah.
• 2:10:37
  Speaker A: Maybe they will know what the deleted scenes were since they recommended this version.
• 2:10:43
  Speaker B: I thought of something as we were watching this movie that I had never thought of before. So the rings of power.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker A: I thought about this before. I thought we discussed this, but maybe we did.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker B: Maybe we did. And I don't remember remember. So we know, obviously, we know where the one ring is, and we know that the elves still have the three elven rings. And we know that the nine rings of men became the ringwaves. But nobody ever talks about the seven dwarf rings. What happened to them?
• 2:11:15
  Speaker A: You're not wrong. They never come up.
• 2:11:17
  Speaker B: Where did they go?
• 2:11:19
  Speaker A: I assume somebody that we see in this has one at some point, right?
• 2:11:22
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:11:23
  Speaker A: These are all important dwarves.
• 2:11:24
  Speaker B: And, you know, I'm sure that this is addressed in the vast quantities of extended lore and notes and things that Tolkien wrote. I'm not gonna go find it. So if you know about it, please let me know.
• 2:11:37
  Speaker A: I think one of them makes an appearance in rings of power. No, because they aren't made yet.
• 2:11:41
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker A: So I don't know.
• 2:11:43
  Speaker B: But, like, what's going on there? Yeah.
• 2:11:46
  Speaker A: I don't know. That is interesting. You're all right. Because Galadriel talks about the rings occasionally. Like, the rings because she has one. Elrond maybe has one.
• 2:11:54
  Speaker B: Elrond has one.
• 2:11:55
  Speaker A: And somebody else has one.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker B: Well, Gandalf has one because we see that he has one in this movie.
• 2:11:59
  Speaker A: That's right. And then. Yeah. And then obviously the human ones. And then the one ring, so. Yeah, they just never mentioned the.
• 2:12:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's just not important, I guess. I also. I really like the Laketown music. Yes.
• 2:12:14
  Speaker A: No, it's good. I went back when I saw this note. I went back and listened to it. I do.
• 2:12:17
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's kind of a jaunty little tune. I thought it was good. Another random thing that I noticed was that I started wondering, watching this movie, if perhaps there was an elf hierarchy based on ear shape. It wouldn't surprise me because Tariel's ear points are, like, much larger and kind of pointier than Legolas's are.
• 2:12:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That would make sense. I would buy that.
• 2:12:46
  Speaker B: Somebody who knows the extended lore. Tell me.
• 2:12:49
  Speaker A: Yeah, this is definitely the movie. I could see where that thing you mentioned about the Gandalf, Galadriel, Shipdeh and the marketing this movie, I could see that we're coming from because there's. In the scene where she comes to save him, they share some specific looks, and he even is like, my lady.
• 2:13:08
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:13:08
  Speaker A: In a way that is definitely, like, what's going on?
• 2:13:12
  Speaker B: Stuff going on there.
• 2:13:14
  Speaker A: Done a little something in the past. What's. What's up with that? Yeah. Yeah. There's an implication in this movie that I did not get at all in the. In the first movie or. But in this one, I could see what people were talking about.
• 2:13:28
  Speaker B: We also get Legolas's mother's backstory.
• 2:13:31
  Speaker A: I believe. That's not mentioned at all in the book. I think I read in a trivia fact that his mother never made that.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker B: Up for the movie, never meant. Yeah, because he. Like, when him and Tariel go to.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker A: The place that sounds like a Star wars name.
• 2:13:48
  Speaker B: Yes, it does.
• 2:13:49
  Speaker A: It's like gungabada.
• 2:13:51
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 2:13:52
  Speaker A: That's what it is. Cause I was like gungabad. That's like the Gungans from the prequels.
• 2:13:59
  Speaker B: Like, if they were evil, that's where they would come from.
• 2:14:03
  Speaker A: It cracked me up. I was like, that is a prequel ass name. Yeah, I don't know what that is.
• 2:14:07
  Speaker B: But they go there and Legolas just casually drops that his mother was killed there in a battle.
• 2:14:13
  Speaker A: I think it might be goondabad. Gundabad, not a gangabad would be very specifically pregnant. Yeah, it's like goondabad or gundabad or whatever. Yeah. Still sounds like a Star wars name.
• 2:14:27
  Speaker B: I knew it was gonna happen, but I was still extremely devastated when moose, the horse who was playing Thranduil's elk, died.
• 2:14:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, very sad.
• 2:14:39
  Speaker B: Thranduil with his permanent thousand yard stare. He does it so well.
• 2:14:45
  Speaker A: He really does. It cracked me up. When Bilbo gets back home, and I should have put this note. It doesn't matter. When Bilbo gets back home, he's like. He's, like going through his house and he's, like, picking up the rail.
• 2:14:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. He's kind of like cleaning things and.
• 2:14:58
  Speaker A: There'S, like, basically nothing left. But there are these two paintings. And he picks up one of them and he hangs it over his fireplace. And it's a painting of his mother and his father. And the one he picks up of his mother, I swear to God, it's Winona Ryder. I on my life. The artist painted Winona Ryder. Somebody look at that. I swear it's Winona Ryder. It was. I was cracking up.
• 2:15:22
  Speaker B: We also get the backstory ish, I guess, for the Legolas Aragorn friendship in this.
• 2:15:29
  Speaker A: Yeah. Thranduil tells Legolas, he's like, go north, find the Dunedain. There's one named Strider. And we both had the same question. Like, okay, so obviously Aragorn knows. Knows. Legolas and Aragorn know each other before the events of Lord of the Rings because when they show up, they know each other. But why does Thranduil tell him to go find him?
• 2:15:54
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 2:15:56
  Speaker A: I guess because the growing threat maybe, like, we. It's the idea. I don't know. It doesn't. I was a little unsure of, like, why is he telling him to go find Strider?
• 2:16:06
  Speaker B: And that's the kind of like, fan service that I. I feel like it's fine. Cause it's just like a brief little moment, but it also doesn't really work. Cause it's like, why are you telling him this, though?
• 2:16:19
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 2:16:20
  Speaker B: What's the reason?
• 2:16:21
  Speaker A: I think what would have made more sense, what would have been better is if. And I say better, it's cheesy in a different way, but don't have that scene. Have Legolas be like, I'm leaving. I gotta go find my own way. Do my. Whatever. Whatever his reason is for leaving. And then we get a post credit scene and Legolas is walking through the woods or whatever. Or he's sitting in a. He's sitting in a smokey, sitting in a smoky tavern somewhere. And he, like, gets in a bar fight or something. Somebody's like, knocks it. Knocks over his drink. We don't serve pointy ears here. And he's like. They, like, punch him and he, like, gets in a fight and they, like, have a brief fist and some hooded figure steps in and helps him. And we don't ever see who it is, but he's got his hood up the whole time and he beats up the guy. And Legolas is like, thanks for the help, or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And the guy's like, don't mention it. And he throws a couple coins on the table to pay for his. On the counter to pay for his drink. And he goes, what's your name, friend? He goes, they call me Strider credits.
• 2:17:31
  Speaker B: I would have hated that. I would have.
• 2:17:35
  Speaker A: Like I said, it's worse in a different way, but also kind of amazing, you know?
• 2:17:41
  Speaker B: No, because you know what actually would have worked. Same exact scene. But instead of having Thranduil tell Legolas this, have Gandalf do it. Yeah, that makes sense because Gandalf is like the puppet master who knows every way. He knows. Everybody knows who needs to be where and who needs to talk to.
• 2:17:58
  Speaker A: No, I agree. That would actually. Yes, that would be. Make way more sense in my opinion, for sure. That being said, aragorn fucks with elves. So we. You know, it's not like it makes no sense. It's just a little. A little confusing as why Thrandu will be like, go find stretch.
• 2:18:13
  Speaker B: Sure. What?
• 2:18:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, it is. So this is from the book. At the very beginning of the final chapter, Gandalf, when they get back to. As they're on their way back, they stop at Rivendell.
• 2:18:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 2:18:27
  Speaker A: And he has a conversation with Elrond. And in the book. That's what my note is. In the book, it would appear that Gandalf does not know the Necromancer is Sauron because he does not mention that to Elrond in their conversation.
• 2:18:42
  Speaker B: He can't know that because J. R. R. Tolkien didn't know that yet either.
• 2:18:46
  Speaker A: Right. But that's my point, is that it then makes the continuity with these movies and the future movies confusing. Because how would Gandalf. Because Gandalf does know it's Sauron in this one?
• 2:18:56
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 2:18:57
  Speaker A: And does it make sense that he knows it's Sauron at the beginning of the next one? I don't know. That's what I'm saying. That was what is I don't know. Anyways, all right, before we wrap up, we wanted to remind you you could do us a giant favor by hanging over to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, goodreads. We want to know, or threads, we want to know what you had to say about the battle, the Hobbit, the battle of the five Armies. We will read all that feedback on our next prequel episode in one week's time and respond to it, and it'll be a lot of fun. So go do that. If you want to help us all, you can also head over to Apple podcasts, Spotify wherever you can like, and rate review our show. Whatever you can do, get it out there. Drop us a five star rating, write us a review. It's very helpful. And as we said at the beginning, you can support us@patreon.com. thisfilmislit and get access to some bonus content at the different levels katie, it's time for the final verdict.
• 2:19:51
  Speaker B: Sentence passed. Verdict after? That's stupid. I'm not sure at what point in the process of making this movie the title changed, but now, having seen it, I sure understand why it had to change. The Hobbit there and back again would have made absolutely no sense. Literally. The entire film is the battle of the Five army, and therein, I think, lies this particular film's ultimate downfall. The whole series has struggled with action sequences, from the encounter with the trolls to the smelting smaug scene. This movie is almost nothing but action scene, and it continues all of the same issues, namely a screen filled to the brim with chaotic, difficult to follow movement. Outlandish moments that are supposed to be badass but just induce eye rolls and weird attempts at cartoonish comedic beats. Looking at you axe in the skull bit. Where this movie is at its best is in its quieter, more emotional moments between Bilbo and Thorin. Unfortunately, these are few and far in between, and while the movie attempts to replicate that pathos with Keeley and Tarije, the series simply didnt do enough work to have that relationship pay off in the way it needed to. In comparing the Battle of the five armies to the rest of the series. Personally, I would put this one at the bottom with the other two. I felt that they werent good, but they also werent as bad as I expected this one, unfortunately, was as bad as I expected. I suspect that the filmmakers wanted it to be an exciting feast for the eye, but instead it was an assail to my senses. I'll admit that this wasn't my most favorite section of the book. I found the sections with the dwarves a little boring and the battles a little glossed over, like Tolkien wasn't super interested in writing them, however, held up in comparison to this noisy mess of a film. I'll take a truncated battle any day, so in the final showdown of our 2024 summer series, I'm remaining steadfast and giving this one to the book.
• 2:22:18
  Speaker A: I'm glad you're with us listeners here at the end of all things. I pretty sure I made that joke. At the end of the day, I'm.
• 2:22:23
  Speaker B: Absolutely positive you did, but you're gonna.
• 2:22:26
  Speaker A: Do it again, and you can't stop me. The Battle of the five Armies was easily the worst film in this series. I understand why they made the choice to add a third film, but it was a tough ask from the start because this also ended up being my least favorite part of the book. The result is a bloated mess that, despite being the shortest in the series, ends up wasting the most time. It's filled to the brim with all of the worst elements of Jackson's Lord of the Rings series. Tonally, the film can't decide if it's an inspiring fairy tale about friendship or a greek tragedy, which I think could have worked as that isn't that far off from what the book is doing, but the attempts to lighten the mood in the film are off, but the attempts to lighten the mood in the film often feel forced and out of place. I cannot stress enough how baffled I was by the comedy beat between Bilbo and Gandalf immediately after watching Bilbo sob over Thorin's dead body. The action sequences are overlong and end up being a nonstop parade of moments far goofier than anything in Lord of the Rings. Because here's the thing. It's not that Lord of the Rings didn't have those moments of ridiculous nonsense. It did Legolas sliding down the stairs on a shield in the battle of Helms deep, Legolas taking down an entire oliphant by himself, etcetera. But they worked because they were the exception and not the rule. This movie has zero restraint. It turns all of our characters into cartoon action figures, and the result is a series of action sequences with zero tension, despite the fact that three of our main characters are killed. Finally, and most disappointingly, the film desperately wants us to care about these characters, and I simply did not. The relationship, given any time to develop or written with any dimension or pathos, is that between Thorne and Bilbo and it works pretty well. The problem is that there are 900 other characters in this film and nearly all of them are paper thin. I did not care about Tariel. I did not care about her relationship to Kili. I did not care about thranduil or Dayne or Legolas or Fili or Bifur or any of the other nine dwarves who barely get any screen time while still somehow managing to steal the spotlight away from the two characters that I did somewhat care about. I didnt enjoy this section of the book as much as the first two thirds, but it was a satisfying enough conclusion to a delightful little story. This film, on the other hand, was a major disappointment, especially after I enjoyed the first two movies significantly more than I expected. So as we conclude our 2024 summer series, Im going to end this the way it began and say conclusively that the book is better than the movie. Katie, what's next?
• 2:25:09
  Speaker B: Up next, we are doing my birthday episode and we're gonna talk about Kiki's delivery service.
• 2:25:19
  Speaker A: Let's go. It's the one studio Ghibli movie I like. Boo, hiss. They all scream. I run off stage pelted by tomatoes. Yeah, I'm very excited cause I dude, I do really like Kiki's delivery service.
• 2:25:31
  Speaker B: Which is gonna be fun.
• 2:25:33
  Speaker A: So yep, two weeks time we'll be talking about Kiki's delivery service. In one week's time. We'll be previewing that and responding to all of your guys feedback about the Hobbit, the battle of the five armies. And until that time, guys, gals, not binary pals. And everybody else, keep reading books, keep watching movies, and keep being awesome.