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Youth, Jobs, and Just Transition: What the Green Economy Could Mean for South Africa · TIPS Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast, Tips Talk, the show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Lisecho Mushikaro Amani.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, we're shining a spotlight on South Africa's youth and their role in the just transition.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: As the country shifts away from coal dependency and toward a more sustainable, low-carbon economy, the changes present both major challenges and significant opportunities for the country.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: We know that South Africa's youth unemployment is in a crisis.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's now standing at over 46% nationally and even higher in provinces like the Eastern Cape and Bumalanga.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, this threatens to derail the hope of a truly inclusive, just transition where youth participation and involvement is at the center.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So transitioning to a low carbon economy will affect the youth in particular because their future and livelihoods are at stake.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And also because they are the workforce of the future and they will experience some unique struggles and opportunities when it comes to this transition.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as South Africa undergoes this transition, the impacts will be felt deeply along the coal value chain and also related industries.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: There will be job losses, economic disruption, and also the erosion of social cohesion.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: But this transition also presents new opportunities, such as jobs in the renewable energy space, in sustainable transport, in the circular economy, as well as new entrepreneurship opportunities for the youth.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we have seen that these are on the rise, even though there have been challenges and barriers when it comes to youth entering into these spaces.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, to make the shift, young people must be intentionally included and also empowered in order to access the green jobs and also the business opportunities that are emerging from the shift.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: But when we look at South Africa's current skills landscape, we see that current skills systems from T-Ved colleges to career guidance and programs and training are still misaligned with these demands.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So today we speak to Dr.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Senazo Ntonge, who is a TIPS economist in sustainable development.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: She has worked as a consultant at the presidency to contribute to the coordination and communication strategy for the presidential youth employment intervention and also the youth employment policy.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we're speaking to Senazo today to better understand how South Africa can build a future that includes youth in meaningful and transformative ways in its just a transition.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we have an expert in the studio today.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So really excited to have you here, Senazo.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here and to have these conversations as we continue to search for a workable solution to this issue of unemployment, which affects our young people the most.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for having me.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot to unpack today, and as a youth myself, I'm looking forward to engaging you on this topic.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we can, you know, dive right into the questions.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, firstly, I'd like to hear from you, Sunazoo.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: What reforms do you think are needed in the education and training system in order to prepare the youth for green jobs in South Africa?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think before I go in to answer that question, I'll just share about something that I came across on social media.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: So in the lead up to June 16, I came across a post on social media where someone had written that on 16 June, let's avoid those high school uniforms and wear graduation gowns because Hector Peterson wants to see progress.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now we may all know Hector Peterson is the young boy being carried in the now iconic 1976 photograph.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And while this post may have been tongue-in-cheek, it revealed something deeper about our education system and its inability to sufficiently prepare young people for meaningful work and opportunity.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: The youth of 1976 fought so that we would not only have access to quality education as everyone else, but they fought for access to quality-relevant education that would lead to a better future.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yet today, with over 46% of young people unemployed, which is actually 56.3% if we're using the expanded definition of unemployment, which includes discouraged young people, it's clear that access alone is not enough.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: We need to radically transform what we teach, how we teach, and who benefits from that education, especially if we want to position young people for the green economy and the just transition.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that the youth of today don't only need educational access to education, but they need education with purpose, training with pathways and systems that recognize them as drivers of South Africa's future and not just passive recipients of broken promises.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, having said all of that, what reforms are needed?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I would say we need perhaps a curriculum reform which integrates green skills.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So at the most basic level, say at primary or high school level, our curriculum must evolve to include skills and knowledge needed for a low-carbon future.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And these maybe would include training in climate smart agriculture, renewable energy systems, sustainable construction, water management, and the circular economy.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this means mainstreaming green skills across the entire system from basic education through to TVIT colleges and universities.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Another strategy would perhaps strengthen career guidance and signal and market signaling.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So many young people don't know what green jobs are.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it would be useful here to provide a basic definition of what a green job is.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: A green job is one that helps preserve and restore the environment at the most elemental level.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So to strengthen career guidance and market signaling, I think we'd need to improve career guidance to highlight green jobs and use labor market data to inform our school system and showcase green pathways as real and viable career pathways rather than just manual labor that we often see people like sweeping the streets and like clearing invasive species under the expanded public works program.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And perhaps another strategy would be to align TVET colleges with the green economy.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we need stronger alignment between what is taught in classrooms and the actual demands of green industries, particularly in high potential areas like Mbumalanga.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that will include the upgrading of infrastructure, retraining of lecturers at these TVET institutions, and building partnerships with green employers for workplace-based learning.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you very much for that.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned, you know, environmental jobs and green jobs and also mainstreaming green skills.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so while I agree that there are many opportunities in the green economy for the youth, I'm just wondering around how green jobs can be made more aspirational, you know, so that the youth don't see them as just environmentally important, but also as the kind of jobs that are offering stable income, career progression, and also personal development.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, for example, you know, when you look at jobs such as plumbing or installing solar or, you know, mechanic jobs, those are jobs that are, you know, very unpopular or I guess unattractive amongst the youth.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So how can we, I guess, make some of those jobs more aspirational?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very important question, actually.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think to answer that question, we'd have to, you know, look at the breakdown of the youth unemployment statistics.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see that when you look at those, you know, those stats, you'll see that the unemployment burden falls disproportionately on black youth, uh, majority of whom, as is often the case, you know, are the first in their families to obtain a higher education qualification, let alone finish grade 12.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So having said that, I think one of the strategies that could be used to make green jobs aspirational for young people, especially this cohort of young people that I've just made reference to, would be to reframe the narrative around green jobs from sacrifice to opportunity by positioning green jobs as future-facing technologically, technologically advanced and as jobs that are essential to national development.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And since, you know, most young people are often socialized to view only certain career parts as lucrative.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have your accounting jobs, you know, being trained as a lawyer, and you know, jobs in the ICT sector.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that in mind, I'd say the connections between green jobs, innovation, and entrepreneurship and the technology fields need to be highlighted.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be just to give a few examples, maybe your solar engineering, green building design, your circular economy logistics, and carbon accounting.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a way, you still get to be an accountant just under the ESG environmental, social, and governance banner.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for that interesting take.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to go back to what you mentioned about T-VETs, right?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know that, especially in our context, you know, sometimes you often have T-Vets being viewed as inferior to universities.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And also we hear about T-VET training being misaligned with industry demands.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that perception isn't entirely wrong.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, having said that, in aligning TVETs with the green economy, we'd first need to address the stigma that you just mentioned, you know, that's often associated with TVET colleges, which is rooted in the fact that we often value different kinds of education because everybody wants to say, I went to, you know, this prestigious university.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: So many young people still view TVET education as a fallback option, not as a first choice.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And this is partly because the pathways from TVET to a stable, well-paying job are often unclear sometimes.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And also many students often graduate from TVT into unemployment or underemployment, you know, with their qualifications not being aligned with industry needs, or because they lack the necessary social networks and work experience to get a foot in the door.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the thing: in a green economy, TVETs should actually be leading the way in training solar technicians, electric vehicle mechanics, and waste innovators, which are the hands-on skills that are needed and increasingly in demand in this just transition.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, I'd say TVETs need to be repositioned as engines of green opportunity, not as last resorts.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And since the topic is on including youth in this just transition, we need to also make inclusion a design principle.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Young people, especially those from rural areas, those with disabilities and women often remain locked out of most training opportunities.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there should be targeted recruitment that intentionally includes these marginalized groups in education and skills training opportunities.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you so much for that.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I absolutely agree with you.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: T VETs are very, very key to supporting industrial development in the country, especially when we're having these conversations around the just transition.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's also important for the youth to be part of, you know, these important decision making that will obviously, as I mentioned, you know, impact on their livelihoods and their future.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for unpacking that very important issue around TVT colleges.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so my next question really is, you know, where to from here?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think needs to be done by the national government and also climate policies in order to address the issue around youth participation?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see as there being gaps?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And also, do you think there are any examples that we can learn from of successful partnerships or multi-stakeholder initiatives that have actually made a difference?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these are partnerships that maybe need to be scaled.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it'll be good to hear from you in terms of what you've come across in this space.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say that government needs to create an enabling environment for green jobs to thrive.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be through promoting some of the methods that I, you know, made reference to earlier, such as, you know, I would add here also advocacy, because that is very important in changing people's mindsets around what a green job is and what people who are under, you know, who work in green jobs actually do on a daily basis.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll say, you know, since it's a government entity, the PYEI aims to do this through its national pathway management network, which basically defines itself as a network of networks connecting all existing networks serving unemployed young people.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So essentially it aims to act as a one-stop shop or single entry point for learning and earning opportunities for unemployed young people to view and access these opportunities in the green economy, including other services related to its mandate.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, in specific reference to you know, green jobs, government could facilitate the move away from this fixation on education and skills training for training's sake, to one of intentionally highlighting clear learning to earning pathways.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So essentially answering the question that should guide any sort of skills training, which is where are we taking these young people that we're training?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: What's the clear pathway between the education and training we're arming them with and jobs that are available in the labor market?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and also which high impact sectors, and now this speaks to demand-led skilling.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, which high impact sectors have we identified in the economy that could absorb these young people after we have trained them?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: This would perhaps require a realignment of TVET basic education and skills funding.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: That would be your National Skills Fund, your CETAs and the PYEI as well to support specifically, you know, a focus on green pathways.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I just want to mention that we're also not naive to the fact that governments, including our own, our own government, are faced with a ballooning debt crisis.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So funding programs to, you know, promote green skills and the green economy would only place more strain on the fiscus.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And with that in mind, the question then becomes how can government get better concessional grants and financing to create that enabling environment for youth employment?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where, you know, your funding partners such as the GIZ, the EU, and World Bank, just to give you a few examples, come in.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would also say that, you know, that the support to young people should be localized because it's one thing for us to have all, you know, these conversations about how are we going to support young people when there's someone in Mamelodi who doesn't even know, you know, what a green job is.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to find ways to localize our assistance, our support to young people.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, thank you for that.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, you know, you mentioned the role of advocacy, and I think that it's really important and often overlooked.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we need to think creatively about engaging the youth when it comes to this issue around the just transition and also making the youth aware of these opportunities, you know, that exist.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point, you know, funding becomes very, very important.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there are partnerships and, you know, multi-stakeholder engagements and initiatives, you know, that are, that are happening.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it will be important to ensure that, you know, those also look at what can be done for the youth and not just only looking at, you know, broader industry involvement or or support.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really, really important to consider those.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And also just to jump in also on the part about advocacy.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, advocacy is important for showing what is actually working when we're talking about green jobs.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it can also present a unique opportunity to bring closer, you know, young people that are marginalized.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So having said that, I would say that, you know, spotlighting green job role models and success stories of young people from townships and rural areas who have taken on green careers.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: We could use media, radio, and maybe give talks at schools, you know, invite those young people, you know, in green jobs, maybe who grew up in those townships so they can go back to maybe their former schools and like, you know, have those conversations with other young people.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that, you know, maybe like a woman, you know, artisan in renewable energy or a youth-led business.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I believe doing this would help alleviate the stigma that is often associated with T-VIT colleges.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that would be, you know, how we could use, you know, media and the role of advocacy to kind of like highlight green jobs.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Snazo, for you know, sharing your interesting insights and also for highlighting some of the options and way forward in which the youth can be involved in this transition.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, we really need to be intentional about the youth in the just transition.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know there are, you know, a lot of conversations around workers, but looking at the future of the workforce of the transition, you know, that's the youth.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so they really do become central to the conversation.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, Snazo, we've talked about the role of the state, which is very important in this transition, but I feel like we haven't really touched much on the role of the private sector.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that they play quite an important role in this transition as well.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd like to hear from you in terms of where and how we can bring in the private sector specifically to play a role in this conversation around youth and the just transition.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think the private sector could co-invest with government and its donor funders, more donor partners, in green skills pipelines through apprenticeships, learnerships, and mentorships.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, some examples of these include the municipal capacity development program, which is the MCDP, a partnership between the Development Bank of Southern Africa and Anglo-American, which focuses on building stronger rural communities facing widespread poverty and unemployment.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Another one is SASO's youth development programs, which include offering scholarships for STEM courses, artisan training support, and technical mentorship aligned with sustainability and energy transitions.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And lastly, the FETOLA Circular Economy Youth Startup Accelerator Program, which is supported by APSA to support youth and women entrepreneurs who are building ventures in the circular economy, just to name a few.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So other programs of this nature that do not already have a clear youth focus could perhaps be amended to accommodate young people who are interested in green skills.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for highlighting those programs.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like we do have quite a few, and I really hope that we can find ways to make them work for the youth, but also at a much bigger scale across the country.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, lastly, you know, I'd be interested to hear from you to find out, because you know, we've spoken about these programs and these initiatives and you know these other projects that are happening in the space.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd just like to hear from you if you think that these initiatives and programs actually explicitly address youth participation in the just transition.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I would say partially and not sufficiently.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So while young people are acknowledged in national policy, they are not yet meaningfully integrated as co-creators in the design, the governance, or the implementation of the just transition and green economy strategies.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say one of the gaps is that youth or young people are often framed as beneficiaries rather than as active agents, innovators, or as already mentioned, co-creators of the transition.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: So building a just transition that includes young people should not only be about just consulting with young people, but about power sharing, investment in young people-led initiatives that are pushing forward the transition and the systemic redesign to make young people central, placing young people at the center of the transition, as opposed to treating them as an afterthought.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the ways that this could be achieved would be through forming public-private youth partnership models, if I may put it that way, where we ensure that young people are included not only as a tick box exercise, but as a must-have, since they are the ones on the receiving end of youth employment policies.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing those valuable insights, Nazor, on youth participation in the just transition.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that, you know, this is a critical area that sometimes doesn't receive enough attention.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that your inputs today has really helped to deepen the conversation around how to include the youth meaningfully in conversations around the just transition.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, as we conclude this episode, a heartfelt thank you to Sinazo for sharing her expertise and her passion as well for youth inclusion and important insights on the youth, on green jobs, and also around the transition.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Your insights have eliminated the actors needed to include the youth in economic participation in jobs of the future.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that's it for today's episode.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, we all live and work in societies that are shaped by differences and inequalities.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And these are factors that influence how decisions are made, how resources are allocated, and also how people engage with the world around them.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Today we uncover these dynamics, shining a light on the imbalance of power and bringing them to the forefront for those with ability to create real change.
• 22:48
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• 22:55
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• 23:03
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• 23:09
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• 23:23
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• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Lisse Homushgaro Amani, your host today on Tips Talk.
• 23:34
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