Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #077 Jason Flom and Lara Bazelon with Tony Wright

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#077 Jason Flom and Lara Bazelon with Tony Wright · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what
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  Speaker 2: I mean.
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  Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
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  Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me.
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  Speaker 3: Everything like everything.
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  Speaker 2: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
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  Speaker 2: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
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  Speaker 2: with this.
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  Speaker 1: How is this possible?
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  Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
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  Speaker 3: that every human being should do the right thing. And
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  Speaker 3: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
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  Speaker 3: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get
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  Speaker 3: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
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  Speaker 3: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
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  Speaker 3: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
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  Speaker 2: Our system.
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  Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,
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  Speaker 1: but it's still broken.
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  Speaker 3: I totally little trust in humanity after what's happened to me.
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  Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today,
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  Speaker 1: I have a very special show planned for you. One
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  Speaker 1: of the people I admire most in the innocence movement,
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  Speaker 1: Lara Baslon, is here. Lara, first of all, before I
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  Speaker 1: introduce you and read off your accomplishments, welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me so.
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  Speaker 1: Lara is a writer and associate professor at the University
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  Speaker 1: of San Francisco Law School, and she's the director of
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  Speaker 1: the Criminal, Juvenile Justice, and Racial Justice clinics. And her
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  Speaker 1: resume is much much longer than that, having spent a
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  Speaker 1: long time as a public defender doing fantastic writing on
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  Speaker 1: all different aspects of wrongful conviction and places like Slate
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  Speaker 1: and New York Times and so many others. So it's
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  Speaker 1: really awesome that you're here. We have a lot to
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  Speaker 1: talk about, absolutely, And our other guest is someone who
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  Speaker 1: listeners will be familiar with, and it's going to be
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  Speaker 1: amazing to catch up with him. Tony Wright is here.
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  Speaker 1: And Tony, of course, served twenty five years in prison
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  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania for a crime it was so obvious that
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  Speaker 1: he didn't commit that when the jury finally exonerated him
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  Speaker 1: declared him not guilty, it took them all of five
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  Speaker 1: minutes to figure it out. And that's right. They deliberated
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  Speaker 1: it for five minutes before declaring him totally innocent. So Tony,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, My.
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  Speaker 2: Man, pleasure always mind. Man, it's been a long time.
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  Speaker 2: I bet it's been overdue. Thanks for having me back.
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  Speaker 1: Tony, right back, live and in person on wrongful Conviction.
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  Speaker 1: And this time you brought a couple of very special
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  Speaker 1: guests with you. Do you want to go ahead and
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  Speaker 1: introduce them or you want me to do it. I'm
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  Speaker 1: gonna do it, Okay. So you brought two very special
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  Speaker 1: guess Shannon Coleman, who is a shining example of everything
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  Speaker 1: that restorative justice can and should and will be, and
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  Speaker 1: her wonderful daughter Lauren, who actually really started this ball
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  Speaker 1: rolling when she read an article and brought it to
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  Speaker 1: your mom's attention. And that must have been an amazing
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  Speaker 1: moment and an amazing process. So I want to hear
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  Speaker 1: about that from both of your perspectives.
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  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having us come in tell
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  Speaker 5: our story.
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  Speaker 1: So Lara, let's turn to you first. What got you
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  Speaker 1: into this work?
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  Speaker 4: So part of what I used to do was direct
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  Speaker 4: an innocence project a small one at Loyola Law School
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  Speaker 4: in LA and I litigated a case in twenty twelve
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  Speaker 4: and twenty thirteen. Our client's name, believe it or not,
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  Speaker 4: was Cash Register and he had been wrongfully convicted in
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  Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine of a murder that he didn't commit.
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  Speaker 4: So thirty four years later we were trying to get
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  Speaker 4: him out, were successful in exonerating him. And then after
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  Speaker 4: that that experience led me to think, well, what happens
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  Speaker 4: to people in the aftermath. So there's so many victims.
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  Speaker 4: There's cash there's his mother who waited in their tiny
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  Speaker 4: apartment for him to come home. He'd been snatched there
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  Speaker 4: by the police and basically kidnapped by the prison industrial
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  Speaker 4: complex for thirty four years. There was the fact that
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  Speaker 4: they had lost his brother, that his father died soon after.
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  Speaker 4: And then there was the victims and the original crime
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  Speaker 4: victims and the man's family who died, and what they
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  Speaker 4: had to go through realizing that the truth that they'd
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  Speaker 4: always been told was not the truth at all.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't the truth at all, as is the case.
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  Speaker 1: And you know every one of these wrongful convict cases,
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  Speaker 1: but some are worse than others. Right, I mean, there
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  Speaker 1: are somewhere mistakes were made, but you could say, well,
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  Speaker 1: you know, there was circumstantial evidence and it piled up,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, the above of the cash Register wasn't
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  Speaker 1: one of those cases. And by the way, that is
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  Speaker 1: his real name. It's cash with a K. And the
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  Speaker 1: fact is with him. It's so dramatic to me because
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  Speaker 1: he was in prison for almost twice as long as
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  Speaker 1: he had been alive outside of prison.
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  Speaker 4: That's right, And just one edition about the name. His
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  Speaker 4: name is cash Register with a K. Interestingly, the other
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  Speaker 4: brother was named Norman. So the family naming system was
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  Speaker 4: just kind of the whole spectrum.
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  Speaker 1: Somebody had a sense of humor. I don't know, it's
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  Speaker 1: really interesting. I mean, I don't know what I would name.
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  Speaker 1: My last name was Register. I'm trying to think what
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  Speaker 1: I would name my kids. But there's a funny mind
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  Speaker 1: in there somewhere. I'll come up with it later. Anyway,
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  Speaker 1: So you got cash out there, cash out there goes
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  Speaker 1: another fun But anyway, and we know I know obviously
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  Speaker 1: firsthand how incredible that feels. It's addictive, isn't it.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, it is.
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  Speaker 4: It's like a drug. There's no feeling in the world
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  Speaker 4: like having a judge find your client innocent and having
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  Speaker 4: them walk out of prison after having been there for decades.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's remarkable. I mean it's interesting because people who
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  Speaker 1: know me and know I have this sort of string
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  Speaker 1: double life as a record executive and criminal justice reformer.
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  Speaker 1: You know, they'll ask me, you know, what is it
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  Speaker 1: about this? Why am I so devoted spending so much time?
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  Speaker 1: And the answer is very simple. Years from now or
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  Speaker 1: even now, no one will care who signed Katy Perry, Like,
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter. No one remembers who signed the Beatles,
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  Speaker 1: for fuck's sakes, right, So but after I'm gone, you
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  Speaker 1: know the you know, the lasting impact of the people,
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  Speaker 1: or after we're going, I should say, of the people
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  Speaker 1: whose lives we've been able to positively affect, who were
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  Speaker 1: stuck in the ultimate nightmare really as as hopeless as
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  Speaker 1: they could be. That's the good stuff, right, and that's
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  Speaker 1: the stuff that really means something. So anyway, it's good
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  Speaker 1: to be in this and it's good to be in
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  Speaker 1: it with you. And meanwhile, very exciting is a new
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  Speaker 1: development in your life, which is a book. You've got
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  Speaker 1: a book, a real hardcover book. I'm holding it in
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  Speaker 1: my hands, it feels good, it looks great. It's from
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  Speaker 1: Beacon Pressed. It's called Rectify the Power of Restorative Justice
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  Speaker 1: after Wrongful Conviction And I'm reading it now and I'm hooked.
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  Speaker 1: So tell me the inspiration behind this book.
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  Speaker 4: How did you come to So the inspiration really did
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  Speaker 4: grow out of Cash's case, because, as you say, it's
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  Speaker 4: so important to be able to really help save someone's life,
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  Speaker 4: and then afterwards, what you really want for them is
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  Speaker 4: for them to have a good life. And what does
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  Speaker 4: that mean? Because, as you know, when people have been
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  Speaker 4: sent away and locked away for so long under unbelievably
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  Speaker 4: inhumane conditions, they have psychological trauma, sometimes they have physical trauma,
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  Speaker 4: and they have to kind of make sense of the
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  Speaker 4: senseless and the monstrous. And what's really interesting is that
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  Speaker 4: there's this movement now to help people who've been exonerated.
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  Speaker 4: But then also the original crime victims move through the
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  Speaker 4: earthquake of exoneration together if they're open to it, by
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  Speaker 4: connecting with each other. And it's fascinating because when you
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  Speaker 4: think about it, the exonery comes out starting as a
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  Speaker 4: perpetrator and then being revealed as a victim. For the
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  Speaker 4: crime victims, especially the victims who testified believing that they
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  Speaker 4: had gotten the right person, but it was a case
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  Speaker 4: of mistaken identity or even just fervently believing that they
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  Speaker 4: were guilty and wanting them to get the death penalty.
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  Speaker 4: They feel culpable, they feel complicit, they feel like perpetrators,
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  Speaker 4: and so the whole system has been flipped around and
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  Speaker 4: they've each seen each other's perspective.
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  Speaker 1: It is a remarkable thing. I was this phenomenon of
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  Speaker 1: that connection, and that the power that's generated from those
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  Speaker 1: two sort of opposite forces coming together is unlike anything
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  Speaker 1: else I can think of. One of the most important
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  Speaker 1: and incredible examples, of course, is Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton.
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  Speaker 1: I've interviewed them on the show. Some of the people listening
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  Speaker 1: now may have heard that episode. I hope you have.
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  Speaker 1: If not, you should go back and check it out.
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  Speaker 1: But talk about that case, because I know you've had
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  Speaker 1: a lot of dealings in interaction with them, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: assuming I'm going to get to them in your book.
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  Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to that chatter yet.
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  Speaker 4: You're absolutely going to read a lot about them. And
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  Speaker 4: Jennifer Thompson was a large part of the inspiration because
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  Speaker 4: she's really at the forefront of this movement to apply
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  Speaker 4: restorative justice practices in wrongful conviction cases. Because, as she says,
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  Speaker 4: she and Ronald Cotton were doing restorative justice without even
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  Speaker 4: realizing that that's what they were doing. And then when
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  Speaker 4: she saw after their book came out and became a
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  Speaker 4: best seller, how many people were in their situation, she
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  Speaker 4: realized how many people could also benefit from doing what
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  Speaker 4: they had done, which is reconnect with each other. So
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  Speaker 4: the backstory is that she was brutally raped at knife point,
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  Speaker 4: woken up in the middle of the night by a stranger.
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  Speaker 4: She followed the identification procedures that were in place in
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  Speaker 4: time at that time in North Carolina. She picked the
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  Speaker 4: person who she believed was her attacker. She went to court,
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  Speaker 4: she testified, and that person was Ronald Cotton. And then,
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  Speaker 4: as it turned out, thirteen years later, DNA revealed that
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  Speaker 4: in fact, her attacker was a man named Bobby Poole.
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  Speaker 4: And when that news was revealed to her, she was
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  Speaker 4: completely devastated by it and overcome with shame and guilt
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  Speaker 4: and remorse, and she and Ronald Cotton had this very
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  Speaker 4: emotional reunion at a church where she just wept and
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  Speaker 4: asked him to forgive her, and he said, I forgave
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  Speaker 4: you a long time ago. And then they formed this bond.
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  Speaker 4: And what's so remarkable about it is not only that
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  Speaker 4: it really is truly a love relationship, but also that
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  Speaker 4: their social justice advocates together, and it's really their effort
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  Speaker 4: that led to North Carolina revising its eyewitness identification laws
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  Speaker 4: and now they use best practices, so what happened is
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  Speaker 4: unlikely to happen again.
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  Speaker 1: So your book again is called Rectify, and this story
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  Speaker 1: it plays an important part in the book because it's
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  Speaker 1: sort of spearheaded this movement, and they now run an
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  Speaker 1: organization that is devoted to putting these pieces back together,
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  Speaker 1: putting these broken lives together to create something beautiful and
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: even magic. And in their case, I think what's so
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: fascinating and so important to highlight about that particular case
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  Speaker 1: is that she was called the perfect witness. She was sober,
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  Speaker 1: she was a college student, she was hyper focused on
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  Speaker 1: identifying him. And so she talks about how she spent
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  Speaker 1: every second of this horrible ordeal trying to memorize any
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  Speaker 1: detail that could help, because, as she says, if I lived,
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  Speaker 1: I'm quoting her paraphrasing, but if I lived, I was
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  Speaker 1: going to make sure that he went to prison for
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  Speaker 1: the rest of his life. And of course one of
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  Speaker 1: the things that motivated her was that she wanted to
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  Speaker 1: prevent this from happening to any other women, and so
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  Speaker 1: she identified him in a mugshot, in a lineup in
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  Speaker 1: court with absolute certainty, and of course she was dead wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And then she has to live with.
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  Speaker 2: Just the.
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  Speaker 1: Awful feeling of knowing that he went out and rap
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  Speaker 1: dozens of other women because he got away with it,
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  Speaker 1: you know. So, and that's one of the tragic things
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: about wrongful conviction, of course, is that when the wrong
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  Speaker 1: person like Ronald Cotton is convicted, the right person is
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  Speaker 1: left free to go out and perpetrate other horrible crimes
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  Speaker 1: against innocent victims. So let's talk about the book. Rectify
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  Speaker 1: Again is the new book, the new release from Lara Baslon,
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  Speaker 1: and we're talking about cases that are highlighted in this
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  Speaker 1: book and how they have led to this really unlikely
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: phenomenon of restorative justice. What's the first other case that
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  Speaker 1: comes to your mind? There's so many of them.
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  Speaker 4: Well, we have Tony here, and he can speak more
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  Speaker 4: poignantly than I can. But his story is also a
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  Speaker 4: story of restorative justice in that, as you described, he
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  Speaker 4: spent twenty five years in prison for a crime he
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  Speaker 4: did not commit. And in this case there was just
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  Speaker 4: truly egregious police misconduct. And one thing about the case
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  Speaker 4: that was so interesting is that the victims elderly woman
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: Louise Tally. She was part of a law enforcement family,
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: and so her great niece, Shannon Coleman, was the daughter
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  Speaker 4: of one of Philadelphia's first African American police officers. And
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  Speaker 4: it was Shannon's mother who told her what had happened
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  Speaker 4: to her great aunt, and the family was very involved
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: in law enforcement. The mom was a cop. They followed
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: the case really closely. Tony was arrested the next day.
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  Speaker 4: Shannon truly believed he was guilty and took some satisfaction
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: from the fact that he was given life without the
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: possibility of pearl. And then Rolling Stone published this expose
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: of just how corrupt and just how unsound this conviction was.
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  Speaker 4: She read it, she was beset by doubt, and she
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: was forced to re examine not only her feelings about him,
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  Speaker 4: but her feelings about law enforcement and what it meant
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  Speaker 4: to be an honorable police officer, and all of the
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: beliefs she had had about the Philadelphia Police Department, all
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  Speaker 4: of a sudden were just kind of blown up.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's you two spent more than two decades, really,
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  Speaker 1: I mean as opposite forces, right. I mean, Shanney, you've
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: talked about how you really hated this man for what
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: you thought that he had done to your great aunt.
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  Speaker 5: Correct. I went by what we were told by the police,
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: and I believed that he was a bad guy and
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: that he had done harmed, had killed my own And.
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  Speaker 1: You are not somebody who's unfamiliar with the criminal justice
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  Speaker 1: system because you come from a law enforcement family.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, my mother was a policewoman for twenty twenty five years.
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  Speaker 5: So again, because of that, probably led me to believe
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: more in what we were being told that he was guilty.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean, that would, if anything, that would deepen
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: your belief in this, you know, being exactly as it
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: was presented to you. And obviously, then Harden, You're resolved
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: to see this man spend the rest of his life
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: in prison because had he done what he had done.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, no one could blame you for feeling that way.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Everybody feels the way they feel. But the crime was
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: a gruesome crime, rape and stabbing, horrible murder of an
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: elderly woman who you know. I mean, it's just it's unimaginable.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: So now let's turn to you, though, Lauren, because how
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: did you find out about this case and what made
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: you You must have had a strange moment You're like, oh,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can bring this to my mom, right,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: you know how that must have been difficult.
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I grew up hearing about it. I guess I
• 15:38
  Speaker 6: would always ask her questions about it. And I think
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: I saw it first in a tweet and I recognized
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: her name. So I went to my mom and I
• 15:46
  Speaker 6: said like, Hey, isn't this your grand aunt that you
• 15:48
  Speaker 6: told me about? And she read it and immediately was alarmed,
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: Like she said, she had no idea, and she just
• 15:55
  Speaker 6: flew into defense mode.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: I want to say I was sixteen maybe, So.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: You're sixteen, you're starting to really, you know, come into
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: you know, real consciousness of turning from a girl into
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: a woman and becoming you know, more aware of everything
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: in the world. And what a way to be awoken, right,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and so you saw a tweet about the Rolling Stone article, right,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: and what an article that was. I mean, I didn't
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: have any connection to the case. Obviously, I've been involved
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: in this work for twenty five years. But when I
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: read that case, I said, I mean, when I read
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: that article, I said, oh, man, I didn't. I mean
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I wanted to run through the streets screaming and waving
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: signs and breaking stuff because I was like, this can't
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: be happening. And again, it's Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: So if it can happen there, it could really happen anywhere.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And so Tony, like for you, you were on the
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: opposite side of this, right, you were the I mean,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of victims in this case. I mean
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: all of you were victims in a certain way, right,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: in different ways. How did you come to be aware
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: that Shannon had turned this corner and was now becoming
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: a powerful advocate for you, not just forgiving, but actually
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: getting out there and like knocking on people's doors, knocking
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: down doors.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Right, it was insane. I thought my family, I thought
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: my family was trying to pump me or something. I
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: got a visitor, Well, I called home and somebody gave
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: me an indirect message and they said, somebody come up
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: there to tell you something. And I'm sitting there waiting,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: and my cousin visited me one evening and he told
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: me about Shannon and the petition and all that, and
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: I fell on the floor in the visiting room. I
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: couldn't believe it. I mean, I couldn't believe it. You know,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: just was a moment. We was waiting for it for
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: a long time, just to connect with somebody from that family,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: because before that we had several appears and everybody from
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: my side was there, but nobody ever showed up from
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: uh miss Talley's side, and you know, we couldn't figure
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: out what was going on, did she have any relative left?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And when Shannon appeared, man, it was it was such
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: a fresh up breath there.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what a moment to and what a
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: moment to be here with the two of you now.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: And of course we're here tonight to celebrate the release
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: of Rectify by Lara Basilon, which is a book that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: really highlights your case and your and your amazing bond
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: that you formed and this beautiful friendship that's blossomed from
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: this most dark, dark, most unimaginably dark place. And so
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, was it hard for you Tony to forgiven?
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: No? No, absolutely not. You can't blame Shannon or anybody
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: from that side of family feeling waity for I go.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: For say, maybe some of my family even thought I
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: mighta been the perpetrator of the scribe until the facts
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: came out. Uh, you know, my family is my family.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: They supported me. Nobody reached for me. If I call,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: everybody ans uh answered the call if I needed anything. Uh,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: they made sure I had what I needed. I mean,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: so you can't blame her. Uh, you can't even imagine this.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: This this is some fairy tough stuff going on between us.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I love her to death. She one of my closest friends.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Her daughter's my niece, her son is my nephew. Yeah,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, uh, Laura here uh on fall
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: or break and and assume she arrived. She let me
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: know she's here. I mean, when she's here, I like
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: to get them together and you know, my little group
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: and we go have dinner and sit down and chat
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: and all that. Man. I I love her to death.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Man A family right there to me and Laura.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: What kind of impact has it's had on you, Like,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: what the how old are you now? And what are
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you doing with your life?
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: I'm planning on going to law school.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was gonna get that so you look like
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: a lawyer.
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: Yes, So it definitely had an impact on that, and
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: it made me realize the importance of the work that
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: I wanted to get into criminal defense. It was just
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: a shiny example of how to you know that the
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: need to be a good lawyer so things like this
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: don't happen.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: You do realize that had you not actually seen that
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: particular tweet and then taken some action which you didn't
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: have to, it would have been easier for you to
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: just be you know, like, Okay, I better keep my
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: mom out of this, you know, like and just but
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: because you did that, I mean, that has something. I mean,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: it's impossible to know whether it's five percent or fifty percent,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: but it's a part of the reason why Tony's sitting
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: here right now. So what a thing for a teenager.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's good stuff, you know, and I know
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: that's something you'll carry with you for the rest of
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: your life. And it's incredible. And Shannon, what is what
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: what's now for you what's going on? I mean, how
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: does how has this transformed you? And what does it
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: mean for you? And and how's you know, what's what's next?
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: Well, I'm a big advocate now for the Innocence Project
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: and for you know, I read all the stories that
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: I can find online and see the other examples of
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: situations like Tony's. I'm a big advocate for my daughter because,
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: you know, helping her with this kind of information because
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: I know down the line it's going to help her
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: in her career.
• 21:35
  Speaker 6: It's just like.
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: I guess it's like my hobby now. I mean, I
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: would like I went to Harrisburn to help with some
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: legislation for reimbursing wrongfully convicted people. And I would love
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: to do more to help because I just I mean,
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: it's like a passion that I have now.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: It is it's it's the most but it's the best
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: addiction that you can have. I mean, helping other people
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: who need the help as much as anybody could ever
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: need help. And and it means so much. And you
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: are really a great advocate and at a beautiful spirit
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: for doing what you do. So Tony, what what else
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: can you share with us? I mean how's you were
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: on the show. I mean that must have been about
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: a year ago, I guess, and you would give such
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a powerful presentation talking about all There's certain things I'll
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: never forget. I mean, we're like seventy episodes into the
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction now and so many stories, but I'll never
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: forget certain things that you said during that amazing episode
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: that we tape together. What's what I mean, that's kind
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: of a big development in your life now too, right.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Just just my whole transition. I mean, you know, people
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: seem a maze of everything I got going on in
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: how I'm manure. I mean, you've got a million people
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: hold in my hands like a baby every step I take. Man,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I never do nothing along so much help. I mean,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: and and and you know I want I wanna heart
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: back on you know one thing, uh uh. You know,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I think this whole situation really changed sharing in life.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: You gave her a different perspective on you know, just
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: a judicial system as a whole. And and and I
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: witnessed the passion she has for other men, and and
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: and and that may be in the situation, and and
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: and learn you know, the apple don't fall far from
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: the tree. You know what I mean. You know she's
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: her mother's daughter one hundred percent. I guarantee you that
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: so smart, so brilliant. Man, I mean, I love him
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: the death.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: It's my family right there.
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: Man.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I can never yeah, I mean, I uh, that's an understatement.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: I mean I can never overstate that.
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: Man.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I want the world and note you know what I mean,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Like this is some fairy tale stuff going on here,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: and it's another member of this family and that's her son,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Devin Coleman. So I want to mention him. Devin a
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: shout out to me. I love you, Shan and Lauren.
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: To me, it was so important to do the right
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: thing because I have a son, Blackmail and two nephews
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: that I raised, and I could only think every time
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: I thought about what Tony went through and was going through,
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: was that could have been one of them? And just
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: I just never forget that no matter, you know, if
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: I'm trying to help somebody or when I'm reading the
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: other stories, I always place them, my kids in that spot.
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: And that's not good point.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Brian. Two things for me. The first was I wanted
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Miss Tyley's family to know that Anthony Wright absolutely had
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with the crime that was perpetrated against
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: they loved one, my family. I could have died after that.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't even care. I just wanted to clear my
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: name and I wanted to clear those people conscious that
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: I wasn't a person that committed this crime because they
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: loved one except for me. I was good.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's really amazing read I read about
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: this exact situation in your book, and she describes very
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: eloquently and poigtantly the gamut of emotions that ran through
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: her as this horrible realization took hold. And I can't
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: even begin to imagine what that must be like. But
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the fact is that she she made not only made
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: peace with it and and turned her whole perspective around
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: and became a powerful advocate for Tony. Like I mean,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: she went to great lengths to try to get Tony
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: out after spending almost a quarter of a century hating him,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: wishing terrible things upon him. And again I'm not judging
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: her for that. And then she, upon being presented with evidence,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: she didn't like shut it down or try to ignore it.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: She just went in the complete opposite direction and tried
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: to fix it. And now, of course she's come full
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: circle to the point that she is now a wonderful
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: spokesperson for this restorative justice movement and and her you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: her story, as I said, is captured in your book Rectify,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: which is so it's so you know, just I don't know,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: it's hard to read, but it's wonderful to read that.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: You know, that that thing that what are having to
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: describe that ordeal that she went through.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: She's an amazing woman because, as you say, she did
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: everything she could. She went to her church, she started
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: writing her city council person, she asked friends she knew
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: who had some kind of influence, and then she went
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: directly to the DA's office repeatedly, and she had a
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: meeting with the head of the homicide unit, and she said,
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: this is an abomination. You can't retry him. Because, of course,
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: the other part of Anthony Write's story is that once
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: the DNA evidence came back and pointed to the real perpetrator,
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: the DA decided that they were going to retry Tony
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: under a different theory of the case. And that was
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: what Shannon was trying to do everything she could to
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: get stopped. When she met with this head of the
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: homicide unit. She begged this woman to drop the prosecution.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: And there's this email that Shannon writes afterwards where she says,
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: you told me that you have doubt and that this
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: is for the jury to sort out. But that's not
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: your ethical obligation. Your obligation it's to see that justice
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: is done and this is a travesty. And then she
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: started a change dot org petition. She attended as much
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: of the trial as she could, and she said that
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: when Tony's lawyer texted to say that, as you say,
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: he's been acquitted in five minutes, she literally screamed with relief,
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: and then immediately started a new change dot org petition
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: to get him money to help out after he was
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: let go.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Right, And that's a different you know, I think when
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: some people think of restorative justice, you know, their mind
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: will turn to the question that I get asked probably
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: more frequently than any other, as I'm out there proselytizing
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: about these you know, innocence cases and the Incence Project
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: and the work that you do and they do, and
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: so many other good people are involved in. I would
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: say the most common thing that comes up is for
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: people they get all wide eyed and they go, well,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: they get paid when they get out, right, Like tell
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: me they you know. They also want to know whether
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: you know there's any consequence of the prosecutor's conduct. That's
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the second most asked question. But the first one is
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: people want to know that these men and women who've
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: been through this Kafka esque ordeal get compensated. And I
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: think most people think, yeah, you walk out, you get
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: a check. But that's not the way it is.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: No, it's not. I think people would be disappointed to
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: both answers to those questions. Police and prosecutors are hardly
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: ever called to account, and even when they are, what
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: happens to them is fairly minor compared to the damage
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: that they've inflicted on other people, including the original crime
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: victims and the exoneries. So with respect to consequence, there
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: isn't often a consequence. And then compensation is all over
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: the place. It depends on your state. So for example,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: in Pennsylvania, where Tony was wrongfully convicted, you don't get
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: a dime. There is no statute to compensate you. If
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: you want to be compensated, you have to sue the state,
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: and you have to sue alleging violations of your federal
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: civil rights and hope that your case is powerful enough
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: that you can prevail. So eventually that is how Tony
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: ended up getting a settlement. But it's very hard to do,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: it's arduous. And then in other states the compensation is capped,
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: so you'll do twenty years and they'll give you twenty
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: thousand dollars. Now, there's no amount of money that can
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: make up for twenty years, but twenty thousand dollars does
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: not even come close. And I think this all points
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: to this other idea that we have, which is we
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: see these stories of exoneration, and we see the exonery
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: in the news with his lawyer, with his mother thanking God,
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: giving thanks, and we think it's going to be a
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: happily ever after story. They're going to get compensated, he'll
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: get millions of dollars, and the police officers they'll be
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: put in prison. And so often what wrongful conviction stories
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: really are. They're not happy endings to fairy tales. They're
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: more like earthquakes. And you were talking before about putting
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: the pieces back together, and that's really what rectifies about.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: It's about who's left in the rubble and how they
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: sort through it and find a way collaboratively to make
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: their own justice, a kind of justice that was denied
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: to them by the system.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really nuts. I mean, I call it the
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: second punishment, and it really would be better to put
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: it as the second punishments because there's so many problems
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: and challenges that these these innocent men and women face
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: when they get out, right, which are again not of
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: their doing, but they did. The problems go to employment.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard when your resume has a twenty
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: something year hole in it, right, And even though as
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Doug Delosa, who's you know, a friend and a hero
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: of mine, and Zanneri from New Orleans who's in Angola
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: for fourteen years, he says, you know, they go to
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: job interviews and they'd say, I understand, but they don't understand,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and they'd prefer to have somebody in generally speaking, who
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: you know, who wasn't incarse, right, even though you have
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: the newspaper article it says you're innocent or whatever it
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: might be. And of course the challenges with family, the
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: challenges with you know, yesterday I had dinner with Valentino Dixon,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: who just got out after twenty seven years I was
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: teaching him how to do Instagram right. But it's a process.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot not that Instagram is the
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: most important thing, but I'm just saying, well, kind of
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: it is anyway. But I'm just saying, like, it's you know,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: these are people who have never held the cell phone.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: They don't have access in many cases to their identification.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And the you know, the most to me obvious and
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: probably disturbing aspect of the second punishment is exactly what
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: you talked about. New Hampshire's the state where you can
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: only get twenty thousand. Wisconsin you can only get twenty
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: five thousand. There are some states where you can't get anything.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: There's still nineteen states with no compensation statutes, and there's
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: some that have compensation statutes. I think it's Montana, but
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: you can only get education credits and stuff like that.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: You don't actually get any cash, even in California, which
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: seems counterintuitive because California. We like to think of California
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: as like you know, a you know, an oasis of
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: sanity in a country of insanity. But they're the you know,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the hoops you have to jump through to get any
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: sort of compensation. You basically have to reprove your inn
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that a court has already
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: ruled you innocent. It's like, it's not.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: That's absolutely right. I just spent some time with Bill Richards,
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: who is wrongfully convicted in California and spent I think
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: twenty six years in prison, and even though he has
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: a finding of innocence, it's not good enough and he
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: has to go through, as you say, this arduous process
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: in front of a compensation board that is staffed by prosecutors,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: and they have to approve him for compensation. And if
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: that doesn't work, he then has to appeal. And that
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: happens to so many exoneries in California. It's just incredibly
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: difficult for them under the statute the way it's written
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: and enforced, to get any money.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Right, So they have to jump through these hoops. They
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: need help, They need legal help if they're lucky enough
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: to find lawyers who want to spend our hundreds of
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: hours or more working towards this elusive goal of getting compensation,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: which may not even really be that much at the end,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's and then they have to take time
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: out of their lives as well to go basically retry
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: a case that they would probably love to forget as
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: best they could. It's really busy, are but it's you know, look,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: it's one of the many, many things I'm working on
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: that particular situation in California. I think we are going
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: to be able to make some progress. Hopefully Gavin Newsom
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: will be the next governor. If he is, you know,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: he's very forward thinking and very passionate about criminal justice reform,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: so I believe that he will take that up. I hope,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I hope he's listening. And if you could, I mean,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: after having spent your entire adult life in the criminal
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: justice system in some of the grungiest places, in some
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: of the you know, in some of the most hopeless situations,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and with some amazing victories to your name, and having
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: raised incredible amounts of awareness through your advocacy and your journalism,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: if you could make, if you could wave a magic
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: wand and make let's just call it three changes, what
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: would they be?
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: One change I would make is I would mandate compensation
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: for every exonery in every state in this country, so
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: that it's not an accident of geography, whether or not
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: you get a million dollars or zero cents. So that
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: would certainly be one reform, because we have a responsibility
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: as citizens of this country to make these injustices right
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: and to make people as whole as we can. Another
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: reform that I would make is that I would encourage,
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: and maybe encourage as too delicate a word, I would
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: strongly enforce state bar rules because one way to stop,
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: for example, prosecutoroll misconduct and also bad defense luring, which
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: is another cause of wrongful convictions from happening, is for
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: there to be consequences. And you and I talked about
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: the fact that there rarely are, and that is because
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: most state bars don't pursue these cases. Even when there
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: are published opinions showing that there was misconduct, showing there
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: was an effective assistance of counsel, there aren't any consequences.
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: And I think it is so important for that to happen,
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: and it's so important to bring a tension to the
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: fact that the prosecutor's job isn't to just tack as
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: many skins up against the wall as possible. It's to
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: do justice, and sometimes that means admitting a mistake and
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: stepping back and conceding error and dropping a case. We
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: have this mindset in this country that we need to
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: be tough on crime, and that to win elections as
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: prosecutors you have to talk about your conviction rate. I
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: think that's starting to change, and we've had this small
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: wave of progressive reformers. But to really hammer that message home,
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: you not only need to elect reformers, you need to
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: expose people who are not following the rules, who are cheating,
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: and who are stealing people's lives. So that's certainly another
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: reform that I think we very badly need. And finally,
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: what I would say is that I think that as
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: citizens again and these states, we are responsible to for
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: caring for the victims of wrongful conviction. And one of
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: the things about the book that was so powerful for me, because,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: as you say, my role in the system was really
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: to advocate for defendants, for people who were accused, and
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: I never spent a lot of time thinking about the victims.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: I really couldn't afford to it. It was distracting and
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: sort of painful to live in their anguish, and what
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: happens to them after this is exposed is really that
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: they're shunted aside we owe them more than that. We
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: owe them services, We owe them therapy, we owe them outreach,
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: we owe them recognition, and so often what they feel
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: is shunted, aside and ignored.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Here's one for you, looking back over your career and
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: your life. As I said in Criminal Justice Advocacy, Reform,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Legal Work, et cetera, can you think of the best
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: and the worst moments that you've had, the best one
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and the worst one.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: I'll go with the worst first, because I want to
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: end on a positive note. The worst moment of my
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: career was when I had a client sentenced to life,
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: and court life means life because there is no parole.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: They abolished it, and we had tried the case once
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: and the jury had hung, and then we tried the
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: case a second time and the jury convicted, and then
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: we had a third trial actually about the punishment, because
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: there was a very complicated question of statutory interpretation involved
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: in that. And I broke down and sobbed because my
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: client was in his early forties, and even given the
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: conviction and his record, it just seemed colossally unfair that
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: we were going to put him in a cage for
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: the rest of his life. And I felt that I
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: had been part of that process. Even though I had
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: tried as hard as I could to stop that from happening,
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: I had not been able to stop that from happening,
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: and the train had come and run him down. That
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: was the worst moment of my legal career, and I
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: revisit it. The best moment was when Catherine made her
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: the superior court judge in Cash's case made the decision
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: finding him innocent. And I turned around and Cash's mom
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: was just she had this expression on her face of
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: just absolute amazement, and she said, thank you Jesus, and
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: she wept, and I just felt this overwhelming sense of
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: relief because I had been a part of giving her
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: her son back, and it was just the most amazing
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: feeling in the world to realize that she had lived
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: for thirty four years without him. She was seventy six
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: years old, and she was alive to see him come home.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the good stuff, and it is. It is good.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: It's as good as it gets. What's the plan? So
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Rectify is out now. People can get it on Amazon, Barnesandoble,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: dot com, anywhere books are sold. What's next for you?
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to do a lot of traveling and
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: speaking related to the book, which I'm very excited about.
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: And part of what's so awesome is that I get
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: to go and be with some of the people who
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: are in the book, some friends of yours. I get
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: to go to New Orleans and spend time with Jerro
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: Morgan and Orion's and I get to go to various
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: other places Virginia and see Thomas Hainsworth and Janet Burke.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: So for me, just being able to travel around the
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: country and reconnect with the people that I form these
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: relationships with and talk about the book with them present
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: is incredibly powerful and rewarding. So that's what the next
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: couple of months, I think, and maybe longer will look like.
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: My hope is that it will build a following and
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: that people will connect with the message, and that the
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: message of restorative justice will catch hold and not be
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: such an alien concept. I mean, some people listening to
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: your show, they might not even know what restorative justice is.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: They might be thinking, what are the two of them
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: talking about, And so my hope is that it becomes
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: as common a ward in our lexicon as criminal justice.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Right, it's actually a sort of a I mean, you know,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not a religious person, but it's sort of a
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Christian concept, right, It's a whole like forgiving, and in
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: this case, you're forgiving for something that never happened in
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: the first place. But it's yeah, it's it's got layers
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: to it, you know, it does.
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: And it's interesting. It has roots in the Native American community.
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: It's also practiced in South Africa, most famously with the
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: Truth and Reconciliation Commission after the end of apartheid. But
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: the concept is essentially, we don't believe in banishing offenders
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: from our community. We believe in renitting our community and
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: bringing them back. So we the criminal justice system in
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: the United States, we ask what crime was committed, who
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: committed it, and what punishment is deserved. Restorative justice takes
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: those questions and it radically reframes them to ask who
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: is harmed, what are their needs, and who is best
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: situated to meet those needs. And when you put that
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: in the concept of an exoneration, you see all this
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: need from the original crime victims, from the exoneries, from
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: their respective families, even from the jurors. There are jurors
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: who suffer your trauma when they realized they voted to
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: convict based on evidence that turned out to be false,
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: based on lies that they were told by witnesses or
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: other state actors. And so there's so much harm and
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: there's so much repairing to be done that were stored
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: of justice. Bringing all these harmed actors together to work
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: through a mutual trauma has turned out to be a
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: way for people to kind of make sense of something
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: very senseless and soul destroying.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: And let's talk about jurors because one of the things
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: I harp on on the show is the critical importance
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: of people showing up for jury duty. Good people, the
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: type of people that listen to this show, inform people,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: people who are awoke. It's an imposition. We all know that,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: But in your view, how important is it for people
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: to show up for jury duty and what should they
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: be looking out for? Because the people's faces, the people
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: that go to jury duty, by and large, they don't
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: have experience in the criminal justice system. They don't really know.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think most people default, as I did
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: growing up, that law enforcement is on our side. There
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: are friends, they're not you know, they're they're there to
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: protect us. And it says right on the side of
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: the car, protect and serve. So what should they be
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: looking out for.
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: Well, the first thing I would say is absolutely to
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: echo your message. Jury service is crucial. And the second
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: thing they should be looking out for is their own autonomy.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: What happens so often in these situations is you get
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: in a room and in Cash's case, you have a
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: couple of people who have doubt. In his case, there
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: was no weapon, there was no wallet found, there was
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: no evidence other than these two eyewitnesses. And the juror
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: who contacted me after Cash's exoneration, who suffered so much anguish,
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: was telling me that he was the youngest person on
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: the jury. He was eighteen. It was the first time
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: he'd served on a jury, and he had these doubts
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: and he expressed them, but basically he felt that because
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: other people on the jury were older and had more
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: powerful personalities, are more and more experienced, he should sort
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: of defer to them. And then the pressure to convict mounted,
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: and the pressure to get out of the room mounted,
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: and he gave it. And so often you hear about
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: that that jurors have these lingering doubts in these cases
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: because they do smell a rat and they don't act
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: on it. So I would just impress upon people not
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: only go to jury service, but in the jury room,
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: stick to your convictions. If you don't think it's right
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: to convict, it's not. Don't let people push you around,
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: don't let people bully you. Don't convict so you can
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: go home to your family on a Friday night.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Right, That's the whole reasonable doubt thing, I mean, And
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's forgotten and ignored in too many cases.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, that's a powerful picture that you're painting.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: And I have heard of so many, too many cases
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: in which there's been jurors who've been bamboozled or bullied
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: even in the jury room. And you know, I'm thinking
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: now about the Randall Paget case, right, which Richard Jaffey
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: wrote so eloquently about in his book Quest for Justice
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Defending the Damned. And in his case, the jury was
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: ten to two in favor of originally a favor of
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: guilt of conviction. And it was so clear, I mean,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: when you read the story, it's unbelievably obvious when you're
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: presented now with the facts. But on the other hand,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: that jury was looking at a guy who had already
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: been convicted and sentenced to death right, so they knew
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: that they knew that this was a brutal murder, stabbing
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: and a rape, and so they were preconceived to think, well,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: he's there, it must be. Then there's research that shows
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: my friend Josh Dubin did the research that shows that
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: people have a preconceived notion of someone's in that box,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: they probably are guilty. But in this case, there was
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: one juror, a woman who came up and spoke to
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Richard after the verdict, which was innocent. They found him
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: innocent and freedom, and she came up to him on
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: the courthouse steps and told him that she had gotten
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: up because the victim was found in a very strange position.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: One leg was up on a nightstand, the other leg
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: was up on the bed, her body was all askew,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: and she got up and put her legs up in
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: that position imagine an Alabama woman doing that in the
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: jury room, and said, look, you can't rape a woman
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: this way, right, And she showed the other jurors that
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: this was not possible, and sure enough she won the
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: day and he was freed, and he turned out to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: be absolutely factually innocent. So she saved the man's life.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: And when you're in a jury, I'm not suggesting that
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: that's an extreme that you need to go to, but
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: you know, we should remember her and and you know,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: and honor.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: Her absolutely, and what she did was incredibly brave and
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: creative and creative.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, I mean that was such a bizarre case too,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: because I won't get into all the details. You have
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: to read the book, but it's an amazing, amazing case.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: And he is such a hero for having, you know,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: won that case in Alabama, you know, I mean, tough,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: tough down there.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: One final point about jury's and this is to watch
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: out for your unconscious bias because so for example, going
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: back to Cash's jury in nineteen seventy nine, this was
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: a black teenager accused of killing an elderly white man.
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: The jury was all white, twelve people, all white people,
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: and it's hard for me to believe, based on the
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: scanty evidence that they had, that they would have convicted
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: a white person. And I think, whether it was conscious
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: or unconscious, they valued Cash's life less because he was black.
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: And I think that's another thing that jurors really really
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: have to think about, which is you have to value
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: everyone's life equally, And as you say, you have to
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: drill down on the presumption of innocence, because you're absolutely right, Jason,
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: that people look at the person sitting at the defendant's
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: table and they don't think, Gosh, what's that wrongly accused
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: innocent person doing there? They think, I wonder what he did?
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: And that's an unconstitutional thought. You actually shouldn't be thinking
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: that you should be presuming innocence. So I think both
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: of those are also very very important for juries to remember.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: And while we're on that subject, we know that the
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: justice system is biased throughout right in terms of the
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: number of people arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. The percentages are
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: off the charts if you're a person of color. But
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: at the same time, we also know that people of
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: color don't commit crimes at any higher rate than white
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: people do. So isn't it odd that we demonize and
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: persecute people who are not only the least able to
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: defend themselves because of socioeconomic reasons, but also people who
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: are by and large less culpable and less likely to
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: commit terrible crimes on a large scale.
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: And it's also really interesting how those crimes get classified. So,
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: for example, in the eighties and the nineties, we had
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: what we called, or our presidents called a crack epidemic,
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: and of course, predominantly the people who are being arrested
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: and prosecuted and sent away for long periods of time.
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: We're African American. Now we're going going through a huge
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: problem in this country with opioids. But we're not calling
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: it a criminal epidemic. We're not talking about super predators
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: roaming the streets with crack cocaine because many of the
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: people who are impacted are white. So we're calling it
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: a health crisis. We're calling it a national emergency, and
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: we're talking about treatment. We're talking about options other than
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: incarceration in a lot of these cases. And yet they're
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: both these massive problems with drug addiction, but we classify
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: it differently depending on who that drug or which community
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: that drug is impacting.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, drugs are a medical problem. They need to
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: be treated as such. It is unconscionable that even as
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: we're sitting here right now, the people being arrested for
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: marijuana in this country and locked up. But it's happening,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: and it all needs to stop. But it's part of
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: the same problem, and I think the pendulum is swinging.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that it's really the only even semi bipart
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: is an issue that exists right now right and it's
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: not truly bipartisan, but at least there are points of agreement.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: And a true conservative can't look at it any other
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: way than to say, this is big government at its worst,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: and we need to deincarce rate, and we need to
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: stop this mass spending on warehousing of people. And I
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: don't think you know, the numbers are so insane in
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: terms of the money that it costs us as taxpayers,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: but even those numbers don't take into account the loss
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: of tax revenue from the people that are locked up,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: that aren't out there working jobs and supporting their families.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: And it just goes on and on and on. It's
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: so horrible, Lara, we have a tradition here at Wrongful Conviction,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: which is it's a great tradition because it's my favorite
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: part of the show, and my favorite part of the
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: show is the end. And the reason it's my favorite
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: part is because it's the part where I get to
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: say thank you for being here and for all you're
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: doing and for you know, inspiring me and countless others
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: to keep doing everything we can to to rectify a situation.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: And once again, your book is awesome. I recommend everybody
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: read it. It's Rectify the Power of Restorative Justice After
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction by Lara Basilon. And so, Lara, thank you
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: for being here, and I now get to turn the
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: mic over to you and I get to just tune
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: out and listen to your thoughts.
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I want to start by saying
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: thank you for having me, and thank you for all
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: of the work that you do. I think it's rare
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: to find someone who has such diverse interests and who
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: supports artists and art and makes art and then also
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: looks around and sees that the world is broken in
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: this entirely different place and does everything they can to
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: make it right. And so I want to thank you
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: for the work that you do and for inviting me
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: onto your show. Parting thoughts, I think we should all
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: think hard about how we can all be practitioners of
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: restorative justice in our own way, in our own lives
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: and our own relationships. When I first found out about it,
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: my thought was, why isn't everyone doing this? And I
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: looked at the kind of healing that can happen when
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: people face each other who've faced each other down across
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: opposite side of the courtroom and felt nothing but hatred
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: for each other and wishing each other the worst, and
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: they're able to come together and share these experiences that
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: are so profound in circumstances where they might just want
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: to run from each other and run from the pain
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: and run from the trauma, and instead they're joining hands
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: and they're walking through it together, and then they're coming
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: out the other side. And I think for people who
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: listen to your show, who think, well, I'm not wrongfully
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: convicted myself, and I don't know anyone, and this is
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: sort of outside of any experience that I might have,
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: I think what they can ask themselves is, how can
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: I apply this to my own life and what harms
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: have I inflicted? Who's harmed me? And how can I
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: use this to make my own life better and make
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: someone else's life better. And I've definitely gone through that
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: process myself, and I've really thought I've been somewhat of
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: a vengeful and unforgiving person in a way that hasn't
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: benefited anyone, certainly not me. Or the people that I've
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: directed that energy toward, And it just makes so much
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: more sense, I think, to completely revisualize the situation and
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: realize every time you tell yourself you're a victim, quite
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: often you have a piece of culpability and what's happened,
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: and you have some responsibility and some accountability of your
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: own to do. And I think the more people can
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: see that and reconnect and mend broken relationships, the better
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: off all of us will be.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's that's pretty much it. I mean, I couldn't
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: have said it any better, and I'm glad I got
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: to hear you say it. So why don't we go
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: start with the youngest and just share anything that you
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: want to share with the audience about your experience.
• 53:47
  Speaker 6: It was a great experience. It's an experience I don't
• 53:51
  Speaker 6: wish anyone would have to go through. But I appreciate
• 53:55
  Speaker 6: him so much and it's been an honor knowing him,
• 53:58
  Speaker 6: getting to know him, and I will forever cherish this bond.
• 54:03
  Speaker 5: I think the most important thing for me right now
• 54:05
  Speaker 5: is that perhaps what I did, what I believe the
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: risk I took, that somebody else, some other victim's family
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: will follow suit and try to help somebody else down
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: the route. So I want to be an example for
• 54:24
  Speaker 5: other people to forgive.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: Again, you can't imagine this. I mean it's insane. I couldn't.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: I couldn't even with somebody else's brain. You can't think
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: of this. I mean, this sort of thing doesn't happen.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, not just with Shannon and her family, but
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: the jurors, the men and women that read that not
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: guilty verdict. I'm close with everybody.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Right after the verd they didn't want to leave the courtroom.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: They wanted to just stay there and see me come
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: out of that. Man like, you can't. You can't. I
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: can't put this in words. You can't imagine this.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you know, I'm just so grateful, and it's
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: such a shame that you have to go through such
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: a tragic situation to be breeding some goodness in life.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: I've been home over two years, just a little over
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: two years. That past twenty five years don't consume my life,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: not for one second of any day. I'm happy to
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: be alive. I'm happy to have Shannon and Lauren and
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Devin and that family in my life. I'm happy to
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: have my whole family. I try to find a good
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: in everything. No matter what situation. You and somebody in
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: the worst situation just keep on fighting, Just keep on fighting.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Tough times on last, tough people do. I'm built for this, man.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: I'm really almost never at a loss for words, but
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: in the presence of you, I'm really I'm just very
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: very moved and grateful when you're here and sharing your
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: thoughts and your spirit. Once again, You've been listening to
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: a very special episode for me and I hope for you,
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: with Lara Basilon, Shannon Coleman and her wonderful daughter Lauren,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: and the one and only Tony Wright.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Having play Always Mind Man.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: in Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Number one