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From Prominence to Prison: Mikel Jones Journey · Nightmare Success In and Out

• 0:01
  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
• 0:04
  Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
• 0:07
  Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
• 0:11
  nightmares that set yourself free.
• 0:13
  We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
• 0:15
  Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
• 0:20
  These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad.
• 0:23
  There's some humor, but hopefully you can come away with
• 0:26
  a nugget of something that'll help you knock down some of the
• 0:29
  prisons you built up in your own mind.
• 0:33
  All right, welcome back, nightmare success in and out.
• 0:37
  Listeners, this is where you come for what happens when your
• 0:40
  worst fear becomes your reality. How do you adapt, survive,
• 0:43
  overcome? Set yourself free, folks, Don't
• 0:46
  forget, don't forget to follow, subscribe, share.
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  Like this thing up, comment. It helps the show.
• 0:53
  It's a great thing. So what are we doing?
• 0:55
  Who are we talking to today? Well, I have somebody that he
• 1:02
  was an attorney and, and he wasn't just an attorney for a
• 1:04
  little while. He was an attorney for 25 years,
• 1:08
  a prominent attorney. His name's Mikhail Jones.
• 1:12
  And when I say he's a prominent attorney, he wasn't just one of
• 1:15
  those just, you know, attorneys out there.
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  He was a guy that was out and about.
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  He was on numerous television, radio programs all throughout
• 1:25
  the country and a very noted trial attorney.
• 1:29
  He's been in politics at community activists and he was
• 1:34
  noted one of the nation's top trial attorneys who was a member
• 1:36
  of the $1,000,000 Advocate Forum, one of the country's most
• 1:39
  prestigious legal organizations whose membership is limited to
• 1:43
  trial attorneys who acted as principal counsel.
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  One or more cases where they attend awards of more than
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  $1,000,000. He also served as general
• 1:54
  counsel for the late Congressman Elsie Hastings, which as we were
• 2:01
  just talking before the show, he was, he was quite a guy in the
• 2:05
  in the movement, in the political world and just an
• 2:10
  interesting fellow. But he's general counsel there.
• 2:13
  And they had they had quite a relationship for a long time.
• 2:17
  And then Loquel Jones ends up in prison for 36 months. 42 months
• 2:23
  sentenced. How did that happen?
• 2:26
  Well, he's going to tell us. He's going to tell us his story.
• 2:30
  And before we do that, I want to recognize our show sponsor, Auto
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  Tell them Brent from Nightmare Success sent you.
• 3:11
  Mr. McHale Jones, How are you doing?
• 3:14
  I'm doing just fine. Thanks for having me on your
• 3:17
  show. Well, I I'm happy to have you
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  here and I'm so glad you made the time to do it, McCall.
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  And you know, we had a great conversation on the front.
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  Sometimes I wish we would we would film those talks.
• 3:28
  You know, we just you and I just talking to you.
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  I think you were in your car and.
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  Yes. What a what a journey you've
• 3:36
  been on. What a, what AI mean?
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  You had, you know, big law firm, you, you, you did a lot of
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  political things. Take us back a little bit where
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  what was it like for you growing up?
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  Where did you grow up, mom, dad, siblings?
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  Were you always thinking you were going into law or is that
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  something that you came about in a later time period?
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  The community activist part started growing up, a lot of
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  time growing up in West Philadelphia, a product of a
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  single parent mother and fortunately or unfortunately
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  became involved in gangs. But that's where I met a number
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  of people who at one time were friends.
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  They were involved in gangs and I started going to a place
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  called the House of a Moshe run by Sister flock of the town
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  Philadelphia. And I learned how to be very
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  helpful. I used to help.
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  I used to help guys fill out applications at fast food
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  restaurants, and that's how community activism, and of
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  course, Sister Falaka's son went on to have a incredible awesome
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  political career. And several other guys who were
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  affiliated with the House of Emotion went on to have
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  political careers, but all started out as community
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  activists. The law school part came as a
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  result of being stopped one time by police officers hassled for
• 5:29
  no particular reason. And I learned this phrase
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  because I was an intern for the late Senator Hardy Williams.
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  And when they stopped me and pulled me over, I said, what was
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  your probable cause? And they proceeded to tune me up
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  right there on the street. And from that day forward, I, I
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  wanted to be, I wanted to be a lawyer.
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  Wow. I'm curious, Michelle, because
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  you just you brought up the fact that there was, it was a rougher
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  neighborhood and there were gangs and friends that you had
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  were in those. How did you navigate around
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  that? Well, you know, my mom was, was,
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  was awesome, you know, growing up in a household that was
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  Catholic and leaning it, you know, and a Catholic and Islamic
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  household, predominantly Catholic influence.
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  I went to Catholic school, but when you said neighborhood, you
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  can call it like it is. Nobody has to tell me about
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  Beirut because I grew up in Beirut.
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  That kind of neighborhood or neighborhoods, I should say.
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  So it was we didn't have that. We didn't have that luxury of
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  flight. So we had to stay and fight.
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  And, you know, if you want to survive, not every young man had
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  to join a gang. But I was, I was, I was really
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  intelligent. So I joined a couple because I
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  was all over the city. And it was just safer.
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  It was safer that way. But I grew up, you know, I spent
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  a lot of time growing up in West Philadelphia, and I was able to
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  navigate that terrain by being smart enough to want to live.
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  Right. OK.
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  Right. So you get pulled over, guy
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  works you over. How would you?
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  How guys? Guys.
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  Guys, weren't you over? The guy pulls me over, but the
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  probable cause and the next thing you know it was a dozen
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  guys. Wow, wasn't just a guy.
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  How bad were you hurt? Pretty bad.
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  Pretty bad enough for me to want to be a lawyer, but that didn't,
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  you know? Yeah, yeah, pretty bad.
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  So Mikel, how, what, what age would you have been at that
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  time? 16.
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  OK, so you were a teenager, just probably like sophomore, junior
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  in high school, Yes. So you locked in on the fact,
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  hey, I'm smart enough. I want to I want to do something
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  in the legal side of this. So how did you step forward into
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  that? Well, I should give credit.
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  I went to two of the best high schools in the Philadelphia
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  area. I started out at Saint Joseph
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  Prep and then because of the tuition, I transferred over to
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  Central High. So you get that foundation of
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  wanting to go further and, and, and so I did.
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  Obviously I went to undergraduate school and from
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  there it just kept going. So when you went to law school,
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  was it all that you thought it was going to be?
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  Yeah, You know, I wanted to be a baseball player.
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  My mom's uncle by marriage was Larry Dobie, and he was the
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  first African American. He was the Jackie Robinson of
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  the American League. So I grew up with her taking me
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  to Police Athletic League Baseball.
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  And I grew up with some guys who turned out to be really famous.
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  But I thought I was going to be famous, too.
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  And my mother was probably the best coach I ever had in my
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  life. No kidding.
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  Yeah, and that's that's how I wound up in Pittsburgh playing
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  baseball. But she was the one told me,
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  you're not going to make it, son.
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  You know, you you can't hit the curveball and so and so.
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  Some guys, big leagues can't hit the curveball.
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  So that's when I seriously start thinking about something else
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  and, you know, always wanted to be a lawyer.
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  You know, it's, it's funny you say that because I was my dad
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  was AD 1 basketball player and and I grew really fast when I
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  was 7th, 7th grade, I was 6 foot 1.
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  You know, that's like A7 footer, you know, for guys, you know,
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  because girls grow faster than guys.
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  And, and I always say, you know, I peaked too soon.
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  I I about, you know, my sophomore year, I was as good as
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  I was ever going to be and everybody was passing me and I
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  went from this power forward to an off guard.
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  And there's just no, there's not a lot of people out there
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  looking for guys like me. But it's funny because you do
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  have these things in life where if you're really in sports and I
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  love playing sports, you do have to find something else that
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  becomes a passion. And it sounds like you
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  transferred that over and took your passion from baseball.
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  And I know you like basketball. You took your passion for that
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  and, and, and brought it into your education and, and law.
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  So when you went to law, I'm curious too, you playing
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  baseball and how you worked around with the law and, and,
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  and become an attorney. Did you use any of that the, the
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  competitive piece, the team piece, any of that stuff?
• 11:04
  OK, folks, I, I have had something happen that I haven't
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  had happen before. We're back.
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  The building lost its Internet, so it was.
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  So we'll get this edit taken care of.
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  But where we were, as we were talking about Michael, his love
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  of baseball, he had some people that were, you know, famous
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  people that he thought he was going to be one of those famous
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  guys. And and his mom said he couldn't
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  hit the curveball. So he decided to take that
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  passion and roll it into what he could do, go on to be an
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  attorney. And that's how he became this
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  incredible attorney. So maybe he would have been a
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  good baseball player if he could hit a curveball.
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  So so Mikel, take us into a kid out of the tough neighborhood.
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  You went to a good high school. I assume that you did pretty
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  good. How was your undergraduate?
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  Everything was good, good, good times and and good grades.
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  And then you roll into law school.
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  No, I had a stopover. I in terms of working my way
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  through life, I started working with, I started out with a
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  mostly disturbed children because I got a master's degree
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  in Human Services from Lincoln University right outside
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  Philadelphia. And so I developed this
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  expertise to build community based alternatives to
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  psychiatric hospitalizations. You know, back then kids were,
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  you know, going into state-run institutions or private
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  institutions. The private institutions,
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  insurance companies were using up to 30 days insurance.
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  So I was on board with developing something called the
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  Children's Crisis Intervention. And again, these were community
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  based residential programs that had all some of the trappings of
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  hospitals, but community based. In other words, you know, we
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  would take a ordinary building and have all the staff there,
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  the nurse, the medical stuff, the child care workers, but it
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  was in the community. And then from there it was
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  easier to put them in a program that we would have like an
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  aftercare program and ease them back into the community.
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  So I did that for, I don't know, maybe 10 years.
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  Meanwhile, I was still involved with community activism.
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  And then that led to being a political consultant, which led
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  me to Florida, which then led me to law school.
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  Wow, OK. I didn't know that.
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  That's why we have these interviews.
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  So so you had a 10 year expense there of really doing some
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  things in the community and and working with these kids and
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  creating something before you ever went to law school.
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  So I'm curious, what was that? What was that like Mikkel with
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  with being that 10 year expense and then going back into the
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  academic world of of law? What did you feel like you you
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  just jumped back into it or do you feel like the old man at the
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  schoolyard or what? How did that work?
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  I was the only guy in my class, Obviously I was the oldest, but
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  I was the only guy who wore a suit and tie.
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  All right, working for Congressman Hastings at the
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  time. And that's just how I carried
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  myself. But it's it's one reason that
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  you want to support the diversity in any academic
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  institution. But let's take law school.
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  If you have all of the same type, then what kind of what
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  kind of society does that make for?
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  So you need people from various backgrounds and ages to me, you
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  know, to become lawyers and to become productive members of the
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  legal community and to be productive members of their
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  community. So yeah, I was the the older guy
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  and with the time, but no. And it was good.
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  It was great because it's it's like going from college sports
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  to pros where the game is faster, where Martin High
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  School. But you know, law school is the
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  big leagues. It's credit for thinking it goes
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  from, you know, class coming down to 1 exam and that's a lot
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  of pressure. So yeah.
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  So what you said that you said something in there that I
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  thought caught my attention was that Congressman Hastings, you
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  were already connected with him before you went to law school.
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  Yes. Oh, let me step back.
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  I had done a year of law school and I took a leave to run his
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  campaign. That's what I did a year before
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  that. And then I, I was running his
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  campaign, you know, while I was on leave.
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  And then I then he allowed me to come on board and to and to go
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  back to school, working my school schedule with working.
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  Wow, so you actually worked in his campaign or ran the
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  campaign? I'm not sure what it was you but
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  didn't. Once he gets elected, he, you
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  and him worked it out that you went back to law school and
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  finished up the the years that you had left.
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  Yes, that's correct. Wow.
• 16:50
  OK, so well, how would you have been at this time when you got
• 16:54
  out of law school? I didn't what was the question?
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  How old would you have been when you got out of law school?
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  Let's see, maybe 3536? OK, something like that.
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  And so, Mikel, what were you thinking?
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  OK, I'm, I'm, I'm getting out of law school.
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  I've, I've got Congressman Hastings that I know and worked
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  with. What?
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  What was in your mind about what you were wanting to do with your
• 17:22
  life at 3536? Well, I said offer that.
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  You know, I also just started a family.
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  My son was born the two days he was born 2 days before the
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  congressman was elected, as a matter of fact.
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  And so, you know, I had to focus, you know, I had to focus
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  on that in law school. I had the midnight shift, but
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  that's when I studied. So I'm working in the day.
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  I'm working classes in between afternoons and or days and
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  evenings and studying at night while I was, you know, waiting
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  for my son to wake up and get him his Bible or tend to his
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  needs. Yeah, doesn't sound like it was
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  easy. Exactly.
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  But you know, I was good at, I was good at, I was, I was
• 18:08
  already good at politics. I was already good at the
• 18:11
  community. And so to me, the 2 are supposed
• 18:15
  to go hand in hand. I don't know so much today, but
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  then it was that's how it was supposed to go.
• 18:22
  People who wanted to make a difference aspired to go to
• 18:27
  higher office. And those that still worked in
• 18:31
  the community, they still work with those people that they
• 18:33
  helped get elected. That's how it was supposed to
• 18:35
  go, which is what I did. I was, you know, a key component
• 18:44
  of establishing roots here in the community in Palm Beach
• 18:50
  County and in Broward County. And you can only do that when
• 18:56
  you're a people person, you know, where you can go out and
• 19:00
  meet people and find out what people need instead of telling
• 19:06
  them what they need. I think today a lot of what's
• 19:09
  going on is you got politicians telling people what they need
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  instead of asking them what what, what would you like?
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  What do you need? That's a good point.
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  I think that's where politics has kind of gone off the rails.
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  So you get out of law school, you've got a child, you you're
• 19:30
  working a lot. It hasn't been easy.
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  Do you go join a law firm or do you stay within the political
• 19:37
  world And, and how, how do you balance all that out?
• 19:42
  No, as a matter of fact, I, I, I, I have a, a network in the
• 19:51
  community. So, you know, you get these
• 19:53
  cases by knowing people of influence in the community.
• 20:02
  And I specialize the wrongful death cases.
• 20:05
  So you, you, you get these cases referred to you and it's
• 20:10
  unfortunately it's somebody's tragedy.
• 20:14
  But this whole experience, what I should have let off was
• 20:19
  Mandela put it best. I never lose.
• 20:23
  I either win or I learn. So and, and what I learned was I
• 20:30
  used to refer cases out in Philadelphia because I'm in
• 20:34
  Florida and I got complaints. My mother still lived here.
• 20:38
  My mother-in-law still lived in, in, in, in Philadelphia.
• 20:42
  And as my mother got older, I found myself going back and
• 20:46
  forth. And So what I decided to do was
• 20:51
  I had I would became general counsel or I had become of
• 20:54
  counsel to a law firm in Florida, which was good at
• 21:00
  first, but it was part of my downfall.
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  So I with them, I partnered up with them and opened this law
• 21:06
  firm in Philadelphia had a great opening, you know, people from
• 21:11
  the community, elected officials.
• 21:15
  And so that was the start of it. But it was a great start.
• 21:22
  Had several cases worth millions of dollars.
• 21:27
  And the law firm that I was of counsel to here in Florida, it
• 21:33
  then it was Gordon and Diner. Now I believe it's Gordon and
• 21:36
  Partners because Adam Diner, who at that time was, you know, was
• 21:41
  a friend, he brought me into that firm.
• 21:44
  But that firm gave me an ultimatum.
• 21:49
  And the ultimatum was we either buy you and you, we own you.
• 21:54
  We own the name. Since they were funding it, we,
• 21:57
  they put a contract in front of me that said it was going so
• 22:00
  well. These guys didn't want to split
• 22:02
  anymore. They wanted to own my name, own
• 22:05
  me. And subsequently I said no, they
• 22:09
  pulled their funding, right? No, no, nothing.
• 22:13
  Just so that I reached out to. And this is what happened to
• 22:17
  trial. They tried to paint me as some
• 22:19
  kind of, I don't know, not not being honest.
• 22:23
  And I went to a lot of different forms, including John Morgan,
• 22:27
  you know, to partner up with me. I went to firms all over the
• 22:31
  country. But all of these firms, they
• 22:34
  wanted to own me and they wanted to put me on the side.
• 22:38
  But the people who came to me weren't looking for me to refer
• 22:41
  them anywhere. They were.
• 22:42
  They hired me because they saw something in me as an
• 22:46
  individual, not just a lawyer or not a good trial lawyer.
• 22:51
  And so I then hooked up with this lender out of New York.
• 22:57
  And even though my accountant at the time told me not to, he was
• 23:02
  one of the people later on who was pressured to testify against
• 23:05
  me. So this law firm, they gave me a
• 23:10
  line of credit that was supposed to be my operating capital and
• 23:13
  was supposed to be money that I was to repay back.
• 23:18
  And so I don't know, you may want me stop there and you may
• 23:20
  want to ask me some more questions.
• 23:22
  I. Can no, no, I, I think that's,
• 23:24
  that's interesting because I, I think it, the easy path would
• 23:28
  have been for you to have just been bought out and, and and
• 23:32
  they own your name. But you've, you had it in you
• 23:34
  that you had the, the spirit that you wanted to be your own
• 23:39
  guy. You build your own law firm,
• 23:42
  build build it as you and but you found a way to get it
• 23:47
  funded. Yes.
• 23:49
  And, and but this from what I can read, Miguel, you had great
• 23:53
  success, yes, you had great success in the in the courtroom.
• 23:57
  You had great success building a law firm.
• 24:00
  You had great success being a guy that was out there being
• 24:04
  quoted on the airwaves, on on TV and radio.
• 24:09
  So you have all this going on and it's, it's for a lot of
• 24:12
  people, whether they're in politics or their attorney.
• 24:16
  You had everything that you wanted, I would assume in your
• 24:21
  profession, so when did things start getting where you were
• 24:29
  thinking something's going wrong?
• 24:31
  Well, I was Ben Crump before Ben Crump.
• 24:40
  I don't know if you know who Ben Crump is.
• 24:42
  The civil rights lawyer. He's a friend, good lawyer, and
• 24:49
  when you start making a difference in the community that
• 24:53
  is a threat to someone or something, you become a target.
• 25:01
  And the affiliations I had with Congressman Hastings,
• 25:09
  Congressman Fatah, Congressman Howard Ford, Senior, lot of
• 25:14
  members of that I met, I became friends with, and I raised money
• 25:18
  for. I never had contracts, you know,
• 25:22
  so nobody could say to me, oh, he's dirty.
• 25:25
  He had a contract. It was quid pro quo.
• 25:28
  And so the Justice Department, I can only think, were
• 25:33
  investigating Congressman Fatah, Councilman Curtis Jones, and
• 25:42
  they wanted me to wear a wire. And they still had it out for
• 25:45
  Congressman Hastings because he had a trial of his own and was
• 25:49
  acquitted and they still had it out for him.
• 25:53
  And so I became a target that they were hoping would be easy
• 26:00
  and would wear a wire on everybody and at the time.
• 26:06
  I mean, we ought to talk about that for a second because that
• 26:10
  is not uncommon that they take somebody that's around in the
• 26:13
  peripheral. They they scare them with
• 26:16
  everything that you've got say that they're going to indict
• 26:19
  you, say that they're going to take you down and your family
• 26:22
  down and whatever else. And how did you handle that?
• 26:27
  Well, you know, we were at my house and it's funny, I had a
• 26:30
  security system and this played out later at a suppression
• 26:35
  hearing where the first thing my wife and I did, when the FBI
• 26:39
  knocked on the door, they didn't do it like a SWAT thing, but
• 26:43
  they did have about 20 people. And the first thing we did, we
• 26:48
  got down on our knees and prayed.
• 26:50
  And, and that's how I wanted to handle it.
• 26:54
  I wanted to turn it over to a higher power because I knew I, I
• 26:59
  didn't, I knew I couldn't handle it by myself.
• 27:02
  But anyway, the FBI comes barging in the IRS with them
• 27:05
  with guns. And, you know, they're taking
• 27:08
  all kind of boxes of things out, you know, out of my home.
• 27:13
  But while I'm there, they want to know if I'll wear a wire or
• 27:16
  if I have a recorded conversation with Congressman
• 27:19
  Fatah and my friend at the time, he was even calling me on the
• 27:23
  phone. And I, you know, I wish one day
• 27:25
  I could tell him I didn't answer the phone because I just didn't
• 27:28
  want, I didn't want anything to happen.
• 27:31
  Not that anything would have been said.
• 27:33
  I just didn't want anything. You know, I cared about it.
• 27:35
  So I felt it better if I didn't answer the phone at the time.
• 27:40
  So they asked me, would you wear a wire on Fatah?
• 27:45
  Councilman Curtis Jones, Congressman Hastings, all of
• 27:48
  them. And my wife at the time told,
• 27:52
  she said she was the first one to say no because they were
• 27:55
  interviewing her as well. And so in my home.
• 27:59
  And so that was the deal that, you know, the answer was no.
• 28:02
  And later on at court, a suppression hearing that came
• 28:05
  up, whether they had asked me to wear wire.
• 28:07
  And the judge said, listen, once and for all, did you ask Mr.
• 28:12
  Jones to wear a wire? And an agent by the name of
• 28:15
  Hague, who, by the way, called me and and kind of threatened me
• 28:21
  after he was at my home and said don't hire a Philadelphia lawyer
• 28:25
  or there'll be trouble. And and or the and at a bottom
• 28:29
  of our investigation. So at the hearing, he had to
• 28:34
  answer the judge and said yes. And the judge said, well, what
• 28:37
  did he say? He said he politely told us to
• 28:39
  go to hell, which was me. So yeah, that's how it started
• 28:43
  that, you know, I had became a target because somebody must
• 28:48
  have mentioned to the FBI that, I mean, we were friends.
• 28:54
  We used to vacation together as families with time for time and
• 28:57
  his wife, his children. I was close to his children,
• 29:01
  particularly his son. And so they, they and I was
• 29:05
  close to Congressman for time and, and, and one and one of one
• 29:09
  of his daughters. And so they, I guess they saw
• 29:12
  this as an inroad. We'll go in and tell this guy
• 29:15
  that I had had a loan from a minority program in the city of
• 29:20
  Philadelphia and they came in and that was first they said,
• 29:26
  you know, you didn't, you didn't, you took this loan out
• 29:28
  and you didn't pay it back. So, you know, that was fraud.
• 29:33
  But what came out in the papers later, there were 10 or more
• 29:39
  entities that got loans and didn't pay anything back.
• 29:43
  I at least what happened was the loan people came to me one day
• 29:46
  and said they're, they're ending our program and we're
• 29:51
  negotiating with all of the borrowers.
• 29:54
  We you know what can you pay back?
• 29:56
  And I said I don't have it like that, you know, but I offered to
• 29:59
  pay them 20,000 or 100,000 and and they they agreed.
• 30:04
  They said, OK, we'll take that and with the.
• 30:07
  And she, when she were acquitted on you were acquitted on that.
• 30:11
  Yeah, yeah, because I had the paperwork.
• 30:15
  Yeah. But that led to them meeting
• 30:18
  with my lender out of New York on multiple occasions, and at
• 30:24
  some point after the 5th or 6th time convincing them to say that
• 30:29
  they weren't aware that I had used some of my operating
• 30:32
  capital for sports tickets to advertise.
• 30:36
  And at trial, the trustees department initially tried to
• 30:39
  paint the story to the jury. Nobody does that.
• 30:42
  Nobody. Nobody uses sports tickets for
• 30:44
  advertising. Yeah.
• 30:49
  Well, I, I, I have seen a lot of businesses over the course of
• 30:54
  time that they have those tickets to use for clients
• 30:58
  because they are. And I, I thought that was
• 31:02
  really, you know, I, I, I looked up and, and, you know, tried to
• 31:05
  figure out because what we talked about and what was
• 31:07
  online, but it really does come down to a lot of everything that
• 31:11
  you just said. It came down to these sports
• 31:13
  tickets and you know the and a lot of this stuff that you said
• 31:18
  about these loans, they were you were acquitted on, I forget on
• 31:21
  how many of these charges. Yes.
• 31:23
  And and the other crazy thing is, is that, you know, they kind
• 31:29
  of have chapter and verse a lot of times of how they go after
• 31:32
  somebody and they included your wife to put more pressure on you
• 31:36
  bringing her into the equation. And that was my fault.
• 31:39
  I not to interrupt your friend, I the phrase is I invited a
• 31:45
  stranger into my house and how I did that was I made the
• 31:51
  statement to them that don't bother her.
• 31:55
  And once they knew that she was and they may have done it
• 31:58
  anyway, but once they knew how important she was to me, it was
• 32:02
  easy for them to go after her and make these allegations.
• 32:06
  I have a former disgruntled employee say that, yeah, Miss
• 32:11
  Jones used to come up here. She had her own job making 125 +
• 32:16
  1000 a year. And so the Justice Department
• 32:20
  never could make a case at trial that in these, some of these
• 32:24
  white collar cases where I went to with it, you know, those
• 32:27
  topless bars or we took vacations, we had a, we made
• 32:31
  over 200 and something $1000 a year between the two of us.
• 32:34
  So we didn't know we didn't need that money.
• 32:36
  In fact, we were putting that money that we got as a stipend
• 32:40
  back into the firm. So none of that's.
• 32:43
  To grow, to grow your firm, right?
• 32:44
  Yeah, to grow the firm. I'm, I'm curious, Mikel, when
• 32:50
  that happened and they came into your house and they asked you to
• 32:52
  wear a wire and you knew that you were hot now and they were
• 32:55
  all surrounded with wanting Mikel Jones in this thing.
• 33:00
  How long did it happen until? Because I think it's always
• 33:03
  interesting to talk to an attorney that goes through this
• 33:05
  because most of the time when you go through a thing in the
• 33:08
  federal system, you're learning a lot of this through your
• 33:13
  attorney. But you were an attorney going
• 33:16
  through this on the other side of things.
• 33:18
  Was it first of all, how did you did that affect how you went
• 33:23
  about picking your attorney and, and how you absorb this
• 33:28
  information with your attorney and and how you chose a as as
• 33:33
  we've always talked about on this show, 97% of the people
• 33:37
  indicted plea you went to trial. Yes.
• 33:40
  Do you think that? Played a role in how you handled
• 33:44
  this. Well, again, it did.
• 33:49
  And I made the mistake that only a fool has himself or a client.
• 33:55
  You know, we should have never talked to the FBI should have
• 33:59
  just said lawyer right from the start, because later on in those
• 34:03
  I forget three O twos, whatever those forms are, they made a lot
• 34:07
  of allegations that we we that they weren't true and they took
• 34:13
  course during the interview and said that that was one mistake
• 34:17
  and that was from being a lawyer.
• 34:21
  I should go back which by. The way for those who don't know
• 34:24
  or don't know, the FBI is one of the as we all know, there's
• 34:29
  we're recording this right now. There's easy ways to record
• 34:32
  everything in the world we live in, but the FBI doesn't record
• 34:37
  their three O twos. They write it from notes.
• 34:40
  I always think that's interesting because why wouldn't
• 34:42
  you record an interview that you're having with someone
• 34:46
  except for the fact that you're going to give your spin on what
• 34:50
  that interview and what that person said?
• 34:52
  I think that's one of the biggest things that could be
• 34:54
  changed right now in our justice system is anybody who's
• 34:58
  interviewed by an FBI agent and that is a three O 2 that goes
• 35:01
  down that should be recorded. It was, it should be recorded,
• 35:06
  right? It was being recorded by my home
• 35:08
  security system and. They Oh wow.
• 35:11
  They took it out. All the wires out?
• 35:15
  Of course they did. This was their claim.
• 35:17
  National security. Sure.
• 35:20
  OK, sure. National security.
• 35:23
  So they tore it out. It was being recorded because I
• 35:26
  told you they played a clip at a suppression hearing of them
• 35:32
  entering my house. It was being recorded and when
• 35:36
  they. Because you have a security
• 35:37
  system. That's when they stopped.
• 35:39
  So yeah, we would have had a record for that had it not been
• 35:43
  for this. How long did it take you Mckell?
• 35:48
  How long did it take you, Mckell, to go from that time to
• 35:52
  be in in court, to actually have your day in court?
• 35:56
  I'll answer that. I want to tell you before, at my
• 36:00
  law firm, Brent, I employed, never would have thought down
• 36:04
  the road. I employed several former
• 36:07
  fellows, 1/2 as a paralegal and one as an office administrator.
• 36:16
  The one gentleman I didn't know personally, but one of my
• 36:19
  advertiser who I knew from the community at a radio station,
• 36:24
  asked me to hire this gentleman. He was trying to get his license
• 36:27
  back. I brought him on and I brought
• 36:29
  another young man on who had a record as well and was currently
• 36:34
  in time, was doing time and I got him out on her early release
• 36:38
  program. But Fast forward when you say
• 36:42
  how long it took, I wanted to, I wanted a speedy trial and the
• 36:48
  government didn't. And they they lied because what
• 36:53
  happened was the first assistant AUS attorney on the case, he
• 36:59
  resigned and went into private practice.
• 37:03
  And the subsequent guy named that Paul Gray, he lied and told
• 37:09
  the judge that I wanted a speedy trial and it was my fault.
• 37:16
  But they were the ones delaying things because it went from this
• 37:23
  one attorney, US attorney, to Paul Gray.
• 37:26
  So they asked for a continuance. What they really were doing was
• 37:29
  continue to investigate and build, you know, build up a case
• 37:32
  because subsequently on a superseding indictment they
• 37:35
  bought in my lender from New York, and then on another
• 37:39
  superseding indictment, when they got another continuance,
• 37:45
  you know, from the judge overseeing the trial, they
• 37:49
  brought in my wife. They indicted my wife on at the
• 37:52
  last minute. So if they came to my house in
• 37:56
  January, we've I wanted to go. We were due to go to trial I
• 38:01
  think in June or earlier and they they postponed that to
• 38:06
  September and then they got another postponement to
• 38:09
  November. So I went to trial in November.
• 38:12
  Wow, OK. So my son had just started it's
• 38:14
  a year college. OK, what's what, what is going
• 38:19
  on with the family at this time? Your, your wife gets brought
• 38:22
  into this thing about it. You have your son.
• 38:25
  What, how are you guys dealing with this in this craziness
• 38:28
  that's going on and, and, and you've got this law firm.
• 38:31
  How are you dealing? Well, how are you?
• 38:34
  How are you coping? Let's start with coming out of
• 38:38
  prison and I'll say that before getting people being released,
• 38:48
  bank accounts, teaching them whatever.
• 38:54
  I think mental health should be addressed even before being
• 38:58
  released to the community. I'm pretty sure I've never
• 39:03
  talked to her directly, but there's somebody on LinkedIn, I
• 39:06
  think her name, wife, wife after her name is Bruno.
• 39:11
  But she has, she talks about family being affected, you know,
• 39:15
  and, and afterwards, you know, that's where things, things can
• 39:19
  happen. And so if you don't have that
• 39:21
  support, because see families, if they haven't been
• 39:25
  incarcerated, they don't know what it's like, right?
• 39:28
  So a family when you come out, they, they want things to go
• 39:33
  back and you to go back like you were.
• 39:36
  They want everything to go like nothing happened, not
• 39:39
  understanding incarceration when you're treated like an animal.
• 39:46
  Yeah, and believe me, was treated like an animal on a
• 39:51
  daily basis. There were a couple guards that
• 39:54
  were instrumental and me probably not dying in prison,
• 40:00
  and I respected them. They were former military and
• 40:04
  they were officers. But they were good.
• 40:06
  They were good people, but the majority were.
• 40:11
  Yeah. How far down can we grind these
• 40:14
  people? Yeah.
• 40:17
  Yeah, and and having your freedom taken away from you
• 40:20
  already is a mindset thing, a feel that that going, passing
• 40:25
  through, you know, and basically being prisonized, losing your
• 40:30
  freedom, that's a whole thing within your mind.
• 40:32
  And then you're in this environment of this new world
• 40:35
  that you've got to learn how to navigate and live in.
• 40:38
  When you had your trial and you went into that courtroom and you
• 40:43
  had your jury and you got both sides because this, you know,
• 40:47
  this doesn't happen very often. People going to trial.
• 40:51
  Did you feel like you were winning or did you feel like, Oh
• 40:54
  my God, this is this? I'm overwhelmed with what
• 40:56
  they're allowed to bring in here and what they're doing and how
• 40:59
  it's going. How did you feel when they
• 41:01
  finally had the jury come back in?
• 41:04
  Did you feel you were going to win or did you feel like there
• 41:07
  what what was your feeling? Let's go back to when you talked
• 41:09
  about a lawyer. He was a good lawyer because the
• 41:13
  IRS came to my house. I went and hired a white collar
• 41:19
  tax lawyer who, who did, you know, who defended that kind of
• 41:23
  thing. But he's out of Miami and that
• 41:28
  was my first mistake. Not so much him, but I should
• 41:31
  have hired somebody in the Eastern District which would
• 41:35
  have been out of which would have been out of Philadelphia.
• 41:39
  That was that was a mistake on my part.
• 41:41
  And part of that was Agent Haid threatening me.
• 41:44
  But I shouldn't have listened. I should have followed through
• 41:47
  and hired a lawyer in Philadelphia, if not
• 41:52
  Pennsylvania, but certainly familiar with the Eastern
• 41:56
  District and all the various judges and having done these
• 42:00
  high profile white collar crimes.
• 42:02
  Because keep in mind, because of my affiliations, I was in
• 42:05
  newspapers in both Philadelphia and in South Florida, front page
• 42:10
  kind of material. And that's what cost me.
• 42:13
  That's what cost my wife at the time, her job, her pension, her
• 42:18
  career, you know, which obviously caused us problems.
• 42:22
  And I understand because it was, it was my fault.
• 42:25
  But so we're in trial and the first day I'm thinking, oh,
• 42:30
  we're, we're, we're, we're winning because my attorney, he,
• 42:36
  he was, he had beaten up on, on, on Hague.
• 42:42
  And there was one attorney who was on the gone, oh, there was
• 42:45
  one FBI agent who came to the house who, who did equal talking
• 42:49
  to Hague. He wasn't permitted to be a part
• 42:53
  of the trial because he had some disciplinary action at some
• 42:57
  point. So he he, they couldn't bring
• 43:00
  him in for some reason. But I'm thinking I'm we're
• 43:04
  winning on the first day. And then the lies and the
• 43:10
  manipulation started piling up and that's when the tide started
• 43:15
  turning. And another mistake I made was
• 43:18
  not testifying. Now, you say, you know, most
• 43:21
  criminal defendants aren't supposed to testify, Brent, you
• 43:23
  know that. But I should have testified
• 43:27
  because I could have explained to the jury about the sport
• 43:30
  tickets and that it was they focused in on these invoices
• 43:36
  that my accountant, who was affiliated with the lender told
• 43:42
  me to submit them in the way that I did.
• 43:49
  And the FBI tried to put the judge department tried to say
• 43:52
  that they, you know, weren't accurate.
• 43:54
  And what it was was I had people in my law firm who wanted raises
• 43:57
  and wanted to know why was I spending?
• 43:59
  I was on buses, Brent. I was on billboards.
• 44:02
  I was on the subway. I was on the air, TV and radio.
• 44:08
  And I had staff members saying, you know, well, why aren't you
• 44:11
  spending some of that money on us?
• 44:13
  And, and so I didn't want them to know how much I was spending
• 44:17
  on the sport tickets. And so this accountant, he
• 44:20
  dreamed up of an idea. But if I had testified, I could
• 44:24
  have explained this to the jury. And so that was, you know,
• 44:31
  another mistake, not me not testifying.
• 44:34
  But when they went to the jury, I thought it was 5050.
• 44:39
  And then what happened was I was in a civil trial against my
• 44:45
  lender. They had finally filed suit.
• 44:49
  And and so the lawyer in that case, he emailed me and an
• 44:56
  e-mail where which said that the lender was aware of the sports
• 45:02
  tickets because I had put it on a budget in my proposal.
• 45:06
  And I had also put it in on an invoice for me to be reimbursed
• 45:10
  because I would pay for the tickets and get re, you know,
• 45:13
  get reimbursed out of my operator money.
• 45:15
  And so, but the judge said the jury had already started.
• 45:20
  He wasn't going to reopen the trial, you know, based on this
• 45:25
  e-mail that said that they were aware that I was using money for
• 45:30
  the sports tickets. There was also account in there
• 45:32
  about money laundering where I use some money from an account
• 45:38
  and it was my money. And the lender along with the
• 45:42
  Justice Department painted the picture to the jury that yeah,
• 45:46
  it was in my bank account, but it was their money because I owe
• 45:49
  them money. Well, they had devaulted.
• 45:52
  They had devaulted. So it wasn't their money.
• 45:54
  It was my money. It's even.
• 45:56
  So it's like, it's like a credit card company saying you got
• 45:59
  money in the bank that belongs to us because you.
• 46:02
  Owe that right, your line of credit, yeah.
• 46:04
  And so that's what they wanted to.
• 46:06
  That's what they painted to the jury, that it was their money
• 46:10
  and it wasn't. So you you had that going on
• 46:15
  well. So they so when they came back
• 46:18
  in and they said that it, that it was a guilty verdict.
• 46:23
  And I think at that time they decided with your wife, well, I
• 46:29
  guess that wouldn't have happened that day.
• 46:30
  The the sentencing would have happened.
• 46:32
  You would have gotten your guilty verdict and then you
• 46:34
  would have gotten a sentence, yes, but it but it did come
• 46:37
  about that they did not. They convicted both of you, but
• 46:42
  they did not have your wife's served time.
• 46:44
  Is that correct? That's correct.
• 46:46
  They didn't. They didn't convict her on as
• 46:49
  many counts and at sentence. Well, first of all, that day was
• 46:56
  the second worst day of my life. The first worst day was seeing
• 46:59
  her when she had to turn herself in, when she got indicted and
• 47:02
  seeing her in handcuffs. She'd never, she never had all
• 47:06
  those sports tickets. She never went to one
• 47:08
  professional game ever. Now, keep in mind, we lived in
• 47:11
  Florida. My son was in school here.
• 47:14
  How was I going to use the tickets for personal use, which
• 47:17
  is what the allegation was. So they, she'd never been to a
• 47:21
  game ever. So they convicted her on some
• 47:25
  counts. And unfortunately for us, we
• 47:29
  thought there were two African American women in the jewelry.
• 47:32
  And I think they had a problem with the fact that we were well
• 47:35
  dressed. My wife was well dressed.
• 47:37
  She's a well dressed. She's a person that knows
• 47:40
  fashion. And you know, you know, we, we,
• 47:44
  we dress well. You can't dress down.
• 47:46
  I mean, we didn't, it wasn't like we had a lot of jewelry on
• 47:48
  and that kind of thing. We weren't flaunting money, but
• 47:54
  we were dressed well and I think the African American women, I
• 47:56
  think they had a problem with my wife.
• 47:58
  I don't. Know they played against.
• 48:00
  You, you know, so yeah, they didn't convict her.
• 48:03
  And at sentencing, the judge said, he makes the segment to
• 48:07
  me, says she didn't know anything about this, did she?
• 48:10
  And I said, and I say, well, first of all, there wasn't
• 48:12
  anything to know about. But yes, she did not know
• 48:15
  anything. And I was stunned, Brent,
• 48:19
  because if you felt like that, why did you let the conviction
• 48:23
  go through? You should have stopped the.
• 48:24
  Person. Thing if you felt like had your
• 48:28
  honor and. That's the judge.
• 48:29
  Of the pursuit of the truth and justice.
• 48:33
  Why would you let her get convicted, right?
• 48:36
  What? Why?
• 48:37
  Why would you let her convicted when you yourself say in open
• 48:41
  court she didn't know anything about this?
• 48:44
  And if she didn't, if that says like you, then why are we
• 48:47
  talking about her being convicted in any?
• 48:50
  Event they sent her. Basically to a day and it all it
• 48:55
  took was that she was being processed out and so that's what
• 49:00
  happened with her. And you find out that you get 42
• 49:04
  months, right? Were you?
• 49:07
  What were you thinking? What was your guide?
• 49:10
  What? What was your spanse of time
• 49:12
  that you thought you were looking at?
• 49:15
  A month, three months tops, because I thought I was going to
• 49:18
  win on appeal and I thought I would be remain out on Vine
• 49:23
  while the appeal was going on and the judge turned that down.
• 49:28
  And so, yeah, I, I was thinking when I got to this military
• 49:34
  prison, I, I'm thinking I'd be there in 90 days.
• 49:40
  Because you thought you could get an appeal?
• 49:43
  Yeah, I thought I. I want to get yeah, and I want
• 49:47
  to go into that as you going into that prison and what's your
• 49:51
  your mindset was before we do. I want to take a a quick break
• 49:54
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  Go to prisonist.org. That's prisonist.org.
• 51:16
  Start here. OK, Mikel.
• 51:19
  Yes. You get, you get sentenced.
• 51:22
  Are you immediately remanded at the sentencing?
• 51:26
  No, he gave me, I think I had 30 days.
• 51:29
  OK. You got 30 days.
• 51:31
  Yes. OK, So you voluntarily
• 51:34
  surrender? Yes.
• 51:35
  Where do you go? Pensacola, which is.
• 51:40
  Pensacola. Which is a naval base.
• 51:43
  It's a naval base. Yeah.
• 51:45
  I think they're for, I think they're getting ready to shut it
• 51:48
  down, which surprises me because it's one of those.
• 51:51
  My dad also went there. He he did his RDEP program
• 51:54
  there. He went from Marion and then
• 51:56
  went to Pensacola. So you move, you go into
• 51:59
  Pensacola. Right.
• 52:02
  What do you how do you walk in there?
• 52:04
  What do you think of McCall? This is like some place you
• 52:06
  thought you would never be in your whole life and you're
• 52:09
  you're walking into a prison. Well, first of all, because of,
• 52:15
  you know, my upbringing, I was built to survive something like
• 52:18
  this. So I wasn't devastated myself.
• 52:22
  I was devastated that my wife, who had never done a wrong thing
• 52:27
  in her life, he got convicted. I was devastated that I'm away
• 52:32
  from my daughter and my son now. And so I'm devastated for them
• 52:39
  because, you know, my wife was strong, but my kids, they had
• 52:45
  never been anything through anything like this.
• 52:47
  And so this is, I mean, I'm not telling you a story that you
• 52:49
  haven't heard when it comes to families, but so that's what I'm
• 52:53
  doing. I'm sitting there being
• 52:54
  processed. I get there on a Friday, and
• 52:59
  another mistake I wasn't. That's the day I was supposed to
• 53:03
  report. But I get there in the
• 53:05
  afternoon. But I don't know that everything
• 53:08
  gets shut down. So I go the whole weekend with
• 53:11
  no clothes, no uniform, just that orange jumpsuit, no
• 53:16
  underwear, no toiletries, nothing.
• 53:21
  But I will say prison. There's a camaraderie there
• 53:26
  about surviving. And, you know, one day I come
• 53:30
  back from my bed. There's, you know, you have to
• 53:32
  have your own toilet paper. There's toilet paper, there's
• 53:34
  soap. There's all kinds of things
• 53:36
  sitting on my bed. You know, one night, you know,
• 53:39
  there's a soda on my bed. The next night there's a bag of,
• 53:42
  you know, chips. So, you know, there's a, there's
• 53:45
  a camaraderie that developed over the years that started on
• 53:49
  my first weekend, but my first weekend was like the worst.
• 53:55
  Yeah, that's a hard entry right there.
• 53:57
  I couldn't even take, I mean, I couldn't even, you know, a
• 53:59
  shower. I mean, I had no way to dry off.
• 54:01
  It's awful. So getting there Friday, so my
• 54:04
  first weekend was not the best experience.
• 54:07
  But, you know, that's the way. That's the way prison staff
• 54:11
  think. Yeah, tough.
• 54:14
  You know, you, you're in prison now.
• 54:15
  You're nobody. You're an inmate number.
• 54:19
  So, yeah, there I am. But at the same time, I'm
• 54:22
  thinking I'm not going to be there that long.
• 54:26
  So you that whole time while you get your, while you're, you're
• 54:30
  walking through this whole mess, you have the bad weekend and
• 54:34
  then you get some camaraderie, some people giving you some
• 54:36
  stuff that you need and toiletries and that your mind in
• 54:40
  your mind is I'm not going to be here very long.
• 54:42
  I've got this appeal thing going.
• 54:43
  I'm, I'm thinking I'm going to be here just long enough to find
• 54:47
  out where everything is in 30 days.
• 54:49
  I'm going to be out of here. So what?
• 54:51
  How do you get what happens? So at some point the bad news
• 54:59
  starts rolling in via the mail, to the extent that I don't know
• 55:03
  how it was when you're there, but supposedly if you don't show
• 55:06
  up to pick up your mail, you get disciplined.
• 55:08
  Well, after my appeal was denied and the, you know, all the
• 55:16
  disbarments and, and the mail was, it was just going downhill.
• 55:20
  And then I'm finding out I'm losing things, material things
• 55:24
  at home. I just stopped going.
• 55:26
  I didn't even want any mail. I didn't even want my family to
• 55:28
  send me an e-mail. You know, they didn't go along
• 55:31
  with it. My wife was still sending me
• 55:33
  birthday stuff and Father's Day stuff, you know, that she
• 55:36
  accumulated and put together. But I didn't even want to go in
• 55:40
  that mail line. I didn't, you know, because all
• 55:42
  it was was bad news. So when I get the appeal that
• 55:46
  it's, you know, that it's down, that it's turned down or denied,
• 55:52
  you know, for a couple days I'm suffering and I'm thinking this
• 55:56
  is the end of the world for me. That's it.
• 55:59
  But then I bounced back and you know, I I start to do things
• 56:05
  that are going to enable me not only to survive, but to leave in
• 56:12
  some ways a better person than I came in when I lost 100 lbs
• 56:17
  within months by jumping rope with a former professional
• 56:21
  fighter. But one of the guys on my
• 56:24
  detail, he invited me into this group.
• 56:26
  And so that was one thing. So that turned me into a workout
• 56:29
  beast, which I just carried on. I joined another group after
• 56:34
  that. And you know, I just that was
• 56:37
  that was that was a great thing every day at six O clock after
• 56:41
  work and I was able, I hooked up with a a military guy who taught
• 56:48
  state Department employees languages.
• 56:50
  And so I worked with him to improve my Spanish and to to get
• 56:56
  more than a basic understanding of Arabic, which allows me to,
• 57:02
  to have discussions and play chess with my brothers, my my
• 57:07
  Muslim brothers, who, who their native tongue was Arabic.
• 57:12
  So I was able to play chess with them.
• 57:15
  And we would have major discussions about the Bible
• 57:18
  verse, the Koran. So that was another thing.
• 57:24
  And, and so, you know, those were the kind of things that
• 57:30
  were, you know, were, were strength that carried me
• 57:35
  through. But like a lot of other guys, I
• 57:38
  went to every religious, religious service that they had.
• 57:42
  Saturday morning men's ministry. Sunday was one form of church.
• 57:48
  Monday was a form. Then there was the Spanish
• 57:53
  service. Then there was the Catholic
• 57:55
  Mass. And on Fridays it was Juma, the
• 58:01
  Islam Muslims. I went to all of them because,
• 58:06
  you know, I wanted to show God that, yeah, I need some help.
• 58:13
  So. And you know, so you know,
• 58:17
  between that strength of faith and family and the things I was
• 58:22
  doing there despite not seeing my family for three years and
• 58:28
  only talking to them for a few minutes at a time during the
• 58:31
  week, despite not seeing them for three years, that.
• 58:35
  Had to be tough part. Of my support, pardon me.
• 58:39
  That had to be tough that you you didn't actually have a visit
• 58:42
  with them for that long. I didn't.
• 58:43
  Want them to visit. I didn't want them to see me.
• 58:45
  To me, I'm not speaking on other guys, but I didn't want them to
• 58:49
  see me in that uniform like a like an animal and then them
• 58:52
  being marched out, you know, being searched.
• 58:57
  Visits are tough, tough on both sides.
• 58:59
  Yeah. And so, you know, I knew guys
• 59:02
  whose family who moved to Pensacola or nearby.
• 59:07
  I saw some of the things those guys went through, you know,
• 59:10
  after a visit. And they would talk about how
• 59:12
  their families would talk about, you know, how hard it was on
• 59:16
  them. Yeah.
• 59:18
  And sometimes, you know, at Leavenworth, there was three
• 59:23
  different times that my family was turned away after they'd
• 59:27
  driven 4 1/2 hours because they just thought it would be.
• 59:32
  I don't know what they thought, but they knew that I had enough
• 59:35
  points for the visit. And I don't know if they wanted
• 59:39
  me to get really mad and do something, but I didn't.
• 59:43
  It was one of those things you had to swallow so hard because
• 59:47
  you know, the, to, to think that that could happen.
• 59:52
  And, and that they and they, I saw them do all kinds of things
• 59:54
  with visits because my wife came a lot.
• 59:57
  And, and there were people that they've turned away because they
• 1:00:02
  had a certain thing on and they'd let other people then
• 1:00:05
  that that they had the exact same thing on.
• 1:00:07
  So it it was Visiting people in prison is tough.
• 1:00:12
  It for me, you know, I I because I I was thinking about for you,
• 1:00:17
  you, you there's there's two ways to handle it.
• 1:00:19
  One is to cut that that visit thing off so that that you don't
• 1:00:24
  get them exposed to that. The other is you bring them into
• 1:00:29
  it and maybe you can lean on each other, but no matter what,
• 1:00:35
  the, the experience for both sides is stressful.
• 1:00:38
  It's stressful to get in there. It's stressful for the, the
• 1:00:43
  travel. It's it's stressful and, and you
• 1:00:46
  don't want anything to happen once they get there.
• 1:00:47
  So it's, it's kind of hard to explain because there's a
• 1:00:51
  certain amount of stress level on both sides.
• 1:00:53
  But anyway, you've got your family, you're talking to them
• 1:00:58
  on the phone and you know, you only get so many minutes. 3300
• 1:01:02
  minutes is what we had when, when I was there.
• 1:01:05
  Yeah. So that's 10 minutes a day if
• 1:01:08
  you, if you time it out properly.
• 1:01:12
  When you started thinking about, because you got into this
• 1:01:16
  routine, you the working and the religious and the, the learning
• 1:01:20
  the languages and probably reading and doing all those
• 1:01:22
  things. When it started getting close
• 1:01:25
  for you, Mikhail, to get out, let's say six months out.
• 1:01:28
  What what do you, what were you thinking?
• 1:01:30
  Because a lot of guys have a lot of different things that go
• 1:01:32
  through their mind when they start thinking about getting
• 1:01:34
  out. Well, you know, you need to also
• 1:01:37
  talk about the survival and that kind of.
• 1:01:42
  So I can remember my first year, a couple times I must have had
• 1:01:48
  my head down and a guy would say, hey man, pick your head up
• 1:01:54
  and that meant something. It was meaningful and so.
• 1:01:57
  I. I learned to do the same thing,
• 1:01:59
  and it would, it could be somebody who you didn't know.
• 1:02:02
  And so I learned to do the same thing that, you know, don't walk
• 1:02:05
  around, first of all, don't walk around prison with your head
• 1:02:08
  down. That's first.
• 1:02:10
  OK. And so that is, you know, of a
• 1:02:13
  self is a support that can't be matched by anything.
• 1:02:19
  I mean, these are strangers. You don't know these people.
• 1:02:22
  You'll probably will never see them again.
• 1:02:24
  But you develop this relationship with all together.
• 1:02:29
  Part of it's survival, part of it is, you know, like you say,
• 1:02:33
  people care. Yeah.
• 1:02:35
  Well, I mean, you're, you're basically on an island that
• 1:02:39
  nobody leaves and you're in a situation where you see each
• 1:02:42
  other every day and you have certain people that you you hang
• 1:02:46
  out with, but everybody has to figure out how they survive that
• 1:02:50
  primitive environment, an environment that none of them
• 1:02:54
  planned on being there. And now you're there.
• 1:02:57
  So how do you get through it? And everybody's kind of got a
• 1:03:00
  different ways, but I think one thing that happens is most
• 1:03:04
  people get into some kind of routine.
• 1:03:07
  And I think I think one of the reasons why people get into
• 1:03:09
  routines first, like there's nowhere else to be but you got.
• 1:03:12
  But I also think it's a way for you to feel like you're in
• 1:03:15
  control of something. And, you know, when they turn
• 1:03:19
  everything upside down and, or, you know, they, they do searches
• 1:03:23
  or they just lock everybody down, that takes everybody out
• 1:03:26
  of their routine. And it's like, and you know,
• 1:03:28
  crazy time for people, if they get, you know, locked down for
• 1:03:31
  certain many hours or they, they search and do whatever that's
• 1:03:35
  they're, they're turning the heat up because that gets
• 1:03:38
  everybody out of their routines. And the routines are a big deal
• 1:03:41
  in prison. Yeah, no doubt.
• 1:03:46
  And I can tell you that routines were a part of surviving when I
• 1:03:54
  got there. I didn't find out until a year
• 1:03:56
  later when a guard told me. But they have been instructed to
• 1:04:00
  give me a rough time. Now, at the time I'm 50I was 55
• 1:04:02
  years old. And so, you know, I had a
• 1:04:05
  medical reason not to, you know, work difficult jobs.
• 1:04:09
  Well, they put me at the recycling plant, which meant I
• 1:04:12
  had to get up at three, 3:30 in the morning and be on this bus
• 1:04:16
  for a 90 minute ride to another military base and work in this
• 1:04:20
  recycling plant where I'm just filthy it you know, I'm, you
• 1:04:26
  know, my first assignment was, was doing some crushing with
• 1:04:30
  these cans. So I got all kind of juices and
• 1:04:34
  stuff spilling all over me, all, all for hours.
• 1:04:38
  And you know, so that was a year, my second year, I showed
• 1:04:42
  these these people in charge. I said, you know, they wanted me
• 1:04:45
  to, you know, mow lawns. And I said, Hey, I'm done, man,
• 1:04:50
  I'm I'm done. So they tore my paperwork right
• 1:04:52
  up in front of me. They was like, yeah, good luck
• 1:04:54
  with that. Get out there and mow that lawn
• 1:04:56
  in 100° hundred degree, 104° weather.
• 1:05:01
  And so that was my second year. And so I'm saying all that
• 1:05:05
  because it's building up and you, you know, you were talking
• 1:05:07
  about as you get closer, as you get closer to leaving.
• 1:05:13
  And you know, I had been, I had a guy, my language teacher said,
• 1:05:18
  but Kelly, you get along with everybody.
• 1:05:20
  He said you get along with the blacks, you get along with the
• 1:05:24
  Muslims. He said you get along with the
• 1:05:26
  Spanish people. He said you get along with
• 1:05:29
  everybody. And what happens is, you know,
• 1:05:32
  when you carry yourself a certain way, you don't demand
• 1:05:35
  respect. You command respect.
• 1:05:37
  And that's what happened. I mean, guys didn't pass me
• 1:05:41
  pornographic magazines or try to get me smoke cigarettes or drink
• 1:05:45
  alcohol because they got a level of respect.
• 1:05:48
  And my workout partners, when we had these revivals, they
• 1:05:52
  respected me so much that they would go.
• 1:05:55
  And so that respect turned into me getting a job working every
• 1:06:01
  couple of months in this garden off the base.
• 1:06:05
  And it was for a couple of hours and it was pretty nice, you
• 1:06:09
  know, getting off of the base. But the warden, you know, he was
• 1:06:13
  the one that had to approve it. And so there was a time when I
• 1:06:16
  was getting close to getting out where he told me the warden
• 1:06:21
  said, man, you need to apply for a home visit.
• 1:06:23
  And it's a time only our depth, the drug people got home visits.
• 1:06:27
  But he said you need to apply, which I did.
• 1:06:30
  And I didn't follow up on it because nobody with our depth
• 1:06:32
  got approved. And one day I see the ward and
• 1:06:35
  then he says, hey, man, what? You know what, what, what when
• 1:06:39
  you're going on your, your home visit, I said, what are you
• 1:06:42
  talking about? He said I approved it.
• 1:06:43
  So I go back to my case manager. He hadn't even looked at it
• 1:06:47
  because he wasn't used to getting approvals.
• 1:06:49
  He looks to my paperwork and he finds out, Oh my God, I made a
• 1:06:53
  mistake. So he then starts the process,
• 1:06:57
  but that includes the Justice Department signing off on it,
• 1:07:02
  which they say no. Well, that, that was a, that was
• 1:07:07
  a crusher because I was looking forward to going home, even
• 1:07:10
  though I was going to be released like four or five
• 1:07:12
  months later. Yeah, but the whole furlough is
• 1:07:14
  huge, so yeah. So here's the key, Brent.
• 1:07:17
  You know, I, I, the warden calls me and I say it ain't what
• 1:07:20
  happened. He said something like you, you,
• 1:07:23
  you lied or something. I lied on what he said on your
• 1:07:27
  application. There's nothing on the
• 1:07:29
  application. He had been instructed the
• 1:07:31
  justice. I found out later the Justice
• 1:07:33
  Department had said no. You know, and The thing is, if
• 1:07:37
  you're really about rehabilitation and you got an
• 1:07:40
  inmate that you're already letting leave the base and
• 1:07:44
  you're letting all that people go home, why wouldn't you let
• 1:07:47
  this inmate go home if, you know, rejoining family was a
• 1:07:50
  part of, you know, cutting down on the receivism rate.
• 1:07:55
  But you're letting, no offense to your dad, but you're letting
• 1:07:59
  people who, you know, we're drug dealers because at the camp,
• 1:08:04
  these weren't drug users, man. These are dealers.
• 1:08:08
  These are cartel people. These are people who are selling
• 1:08:12
  or doing something with drugs. This is not personal use we're
• 1:08:15
  talking about. That's no offense to your dad.
• 1:08:18
  Some of them were legitimate, but a lot of these guys, you
• 1:08:21
  know that you don't use your own product, but they're going in
• 1:08:24
  the audit program and these are the people you're going to say
• 1:08:26
  it's OK to go on a home visit And just I'm just saying, man,
• 1:08:29
  it's the justice system is. It's it's messed up.
• 1:08:33
  Yes, Sir. Yes, Sir.
• 1:08:34
  So I get close to going home and that's, that's what you were
• 1:08:37
  asking me about. So I was tempted to stay because
• 1:08:42
  I, I know a lot of guys that didn't go, you know, to the
• 1:08:46
  halfway house. And so things have gotten so bad
• 1:08:50
  with the Justice Department and me that I got released at like
• 1:08:54
  3:00 in the morning because I was getting a 5:00 plane or
• 1:08:57
  something. And I'm waiting, I'm waiting
• 1:09:01
  for, hey, the FBI to be out there to, to rearrest me on
• 1:09:05
  something else. I just knew this.
• 1:09:07
  HSD. Yeah, I just knew this guy was
• 1:09:10
  going to be there. I just knew it and so did my
• 1:09:13
  family. You know, my wife in particular,
• 1:09:18
  you know, just knew I was, I just knew I was going to get
• 1:09:20
  rearrested. I get in the cab, I get to the
• 1:09:23
  airport. I'm still waiting for hey to pop
• 1:09:24
  out of somewhere. You know, I get on the plane.
• 1:09:27
  So I figured now I'm going to Miami.
• 1:09:29
  He'll he'll meet me in Miami, but he doesn't.
• 1:09:31
  My family meets me. And so that was, you know, that
• 1:09:34
  was great to hear their voice in person, my wife's voice for the
• 1:09:38
  first time in person in three years.
• 1:09:41
  Yeah. And the halfway house is calling
• 1:09:44
  me every 10 minutes. It's in West Palm Beach.
• 1:09:48
  They think I flew into West Palm Beach.
• 1:09:50
  They're calling me every 10 minutes saying why aren't you
• 1:09:52
  here, not considering the fact I'm driving back from Miami.
• 1:09:58
  And yeah, so they're calling like every 10 minutes.
• 1:10:01
  Where are you? We're going to send you back
• 1:10:02
  kind of thing. That's great.
• 1:10:04
  No, I mean, there's people that they do send back 'cause they
• 1:10:07
  they give you a certain amount of time to get there.
• 1:10:09
  And yeah, and that's, and that's a real fear, too.
• 1:10:13
  So what? What happened once you got there
• 1:10:15
  to the halfway house? You know, immediately I said I
• 1:10:19
  should have stayed. I should have stayed on the
• 1:10:21
  base, you know, yeah, even know what I'm doing here.
• 1:10:25
  This is this is ridiculous. There was nothing new.
• 1:10:29
  There was nothing beneficial. Yeah.
• 1:10:32
  It's run by an entity who only did it for the contract.
• 1:10:36
  They employ people. No, you know, no disrespect, but
• 1:10:39
  I mean, even the executive director, I mean, I don't even
• 1:10:42
  know if she had a, I'm assuming she had a high school diploma.
• 1:10:46
  But I'm thinking, you know, what am I doing here?
• 1:10:49
  Not that I'm better than anybody, but you know, what am I
• 1:10:52
  doing? You know, why is this a part of?
• 1:10:54
  Why is this a part of me as well?
• 1:10:58
  And often times, and often times the halfway house is worse than
• 1:11:03
  the, than the prison you just left.
• 1:11:05
  And, and I know that sounds really weird, but it, it can be
• 1:11:11
  in the, in a really bad area of town and they lock you down and
• 1:11:15
  you know, they tell you got to these passes.
• 1:11:17
  It's, it's a, it's a really strange way to come out because
• 1:11:24
  you feel like you ought to be out out and you're in this
• 1:11:27
  halfway house. It feels really locked down and
• 1:11:29
  really part of something that feels restrictive.
• 1:11:34
  Well, I will say this, it wasn't in the worst part of town, but
• 1:11:38
  and the food was better because the food at Pensacola, they were
• 1:11:43
  serving food that had expired years before in terms of canned
• 1:11:48
  goods and other thing, maggots in the oatmeal, you know, real
• 1:11:52
  hard for it. So I never ate.
• 1:11:54
  You talked about making choices in prison.
• 1:11:56
  You know, my choice was after the first week, I never ate.
• 1:11:59
  I never ate in the whatever they call.
• 1:12:01
  I don't remember what they called it, but I never ate in
• 1:12:04
  there again. You familiar with mackerels,
• 1:12:05
  right? Yeah.
• 1:12:07
  Yeah, well, I lived off of mackerels and Ritz crackers and
• 1:12:10
  peanut butter. Yeah, that'll get you to lose
• 1:12:13
  weight too. And for coffee, yeah.
• 1:12:16
  So then I stopped the crackers. Yeah, I lost 100 lbs so.
• 1:12:18
  That's a little weight. So I get, you know, at the
• 1:12:23
  halfway house, something that's my son is graduating from
• 1:12:26
  college. Yeah.
• 1:12:28
  And, you know, I submit a, a petition to attend the
• 1:12:33
  graduation. Now I'm in Florida, the
• 1:12:36
  graduation's in upstate Pennsylvania.
• 1:12:39
  And so from a prestigious college.
• 1:12:42
  And so I, you know, this kid has survived.
• 1:12:47
  You know, he has survived losing his father, as did my daughter.
• 1:12:51
  And so, you know, he's made it. And so he's looking forward to
• 1:12:55
  his dad coming to the graduation.
• 1:12:57
  But I get called into the executive director's office.
• 1:13:00
  He said, you can't go, but you can appeal.
• 1:13:03
  So I appeal. And then I'm talking to some guy
• 1:13:05
  at the Bureau of Prisons. He said, that's too far for you
• 1:13:07
  to go too far, huh? This is I'm reuniting with my
• 1:13:12
  family. So we have another appellate
• 1:13:16
  lawyer fire a motion with the court.
• 1:13:19
  The judge signs off of it while the Bureau of Prisons gets all
• 1:13:22
  bent out of shape. The guy calls me.
• 1:13:24
  He said, you're not, you're still not going.
• 1:13:26
  No judge has authority or jurisdiction over us.
• 1:13:29
  You're not going. And I told him, listen, I'm
• 1:13:33
  going, all right, so I don't know what you got to do, but I
• 1:13:36
  know I'm leaving. So the next thing I know, I get
• 1:13:38
  called back into the executive directors and they have these
• 1:13:41
  boundaries that, you know, you got to answer your phone and,
• 1:13:46
  you know, just, you got to call in, you know, that kind of
• 1:13:48
  thing. But I was able.
• 1:13:49
  To yeah, but you put your foot down and said I'm going.
• 1:13:51
  Yeah, you know, I attended my son's graduation.
• 1:13:54
  That's great off. Family extended family for the
• 1:13:56
  first time in three years as well.
• 1:14:00
  So, you know, we celebrated his graduation, but it was also
• 1:14:04
  supposed to be like a, a celebration for, you know, for
• 1:14:07
  my homecoming. But you come out, man, with so
• 1:14:10
  much shame that you really don't.
• 1:14:12
  I didn't really want to be around anybody.
• 1:14:16
  I I just didn't. I had a lot of shit.
• 1:14:17
  I worked hard to get to where I was and I was, I was admitted
• 1:14:21
  in, in, in more than one jurisdiction and I was disbarred
• 1:14:25
  in all of them. And I worked hard to get there.
• 1:14:29
  And so to be happy taken away from you not having done
• 1:14:32
  anything and not having committed a crime and the
• 1:14:36
  government being aware of the fact that you didn't commit a
• 1:14:38
  crime, it made it real. The shame was, was really, it
• 1:14:44
  was bad. It was bad.
• 1:14:46
  I probably laid on my floor in my bedroom for close to a year.
• 1:14:51
  Yeah, that's what you told me on the phone.
• 1:14:53
  Yeah. And and what?
• 1:14:56
  And I think I asked you the question then what made you get
• 1:14:58
  up off the floor and get back in doing something.
• 1:15:02
  And you said I had to. Yeah, I needed to you.
• 1:15:06
  Know my my wife was a big part of that and I did go to some
• 1:15:13
  things that was affiliated with Congressman Hastings.
• 1:15:17
  Congressman Hastings put her on his staff so she could have
• 1:15:21
  health insurance. She was a champion survivor.
• 1:15:26
  And so that was kind of him to make sure that she had this
• 1:15:31
  health insurance. So kick something, say kick
• 1:15:34
  something popped up. And so, you know, so I went to a
• 1:15:37
  few events. She dragged me to a few events,
• 1:15:41
  but I would go to the events. You know, he and I were, we were
• 1:15:43
  good. You know, I just got out of
• 1:15:46
  prison, you know, and so, you know, I'd come back home and,
• 1:15:50
  and, and back on the floor. But then it was time to pay the
• 1:15:53
  bills, you know, and I, I'm finding out when I get out that
• 1:15:58
  I've lost everything from my American Express black card to
• 1:16:02
  checking accounts. Banks don't want nothing to do
• 1:16:05
  with me. You know, I've lost, you know,
• 1:16:08
  all kind of material things. You know, I lost everything but
• 1:16:11
  my house and my family, which was great.
• 1:16:14
  I mean, in terms of it could have been worse.
• 1:16:16
  I could have lost my house, could have lost my family, could
• 1:16:18
  have lost both. But I, you know, you know, but I
• 1:16:21
  didn't. So I'm back to work.
• 1:16:23
  I'm still not mental health wise because, you know, I'm probably
• 1:16:27
  coming home and back on the floor.
• 1:16:30
  And it wasn't till I went into therapy that was real helpful
• 1:16:37
  about overcoming the shame and really turning the experience of
• 1:16:46
  having been on both sides of the law into a positive.
• 1:16:49
  Because now not only do I have a law degree and I'm still an
• 1:16:52
  attorney, I'm not a licensed in any jurisdiction, but they can't
• 1:16:57
  take away from my education. So I'm still an attorney.
• 1:16:59
  I'm still, you know, I still have the JD.
• 1:17:02
  So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm working, I'm off the floor.
• 1:17:09
  And my therapist, you know, it's great cognitive behavioral
• 1:17:12
  therapist, you know, he has helped me turn that experience
• 1:17:16
  into what Mandela is my mantra today that I didn't, I either
• 1:17:22
  win, I never lose. I either win or I learned.
• 1:17:25
  So the whole experience has become a lesson and something
• 1:17:28
  that I learned. So, Mikel, So what are you
• 1:17:34
  doing? What are you doing nowadays once
• 1:17:37
  you get off the floor? Yeah, I do legal.
• 1:17:39
  I'm, I'm, I do legal consulting and I'm back to helping people,
• 1:17:46
  which is what I love doing. Yeah, you know, I'm not
• 1:17:49
  practicing law, but I can give people.
• 1:17:52
  Right. You're making a difference by
• 1:17:53
  helping them through. Yeah, as you always have.
• 1:17:56
  And I, you know, you and I talked about this the other day,
• 1:18:00
  you're using everything that now you're using everything that
• 1:18:03
  you've done through your life and being able to help people
• 1:18:07
  and actually have an experience on this other side that brings
• 1:18:10
  you closer to some of these people that have the problems.
• 1:18:13
  So you, you know, your, your ability to help people, not just
• 1:18:17
  from your law background, but the background of going through
• 1:18:20
  a nightmare. You've always been a political
• 1:18:23
  activist and helped in your community.
• 1:18:25
  So the, what I saw from talking to you is you, you've kind of,
• 1:18:28
  you're blending all that together.
• 1:18:30
  And I think it's helping you feel like that you're making an
• 1:18:34
  impact or making a difference for the positive, which I think
• 1:18:38
  is such a important thing to have in your, you're, you're,
• 1:18:43
  you're being that you think you're making a difference
• 1:18:45
  because you've gone through all this.
• 1:18:47
  And how do I figure that out? And I'm going to continue to
• 1:18:50
  make a difference. I'm going to be an advocate.
• 1:18:53
  You know, there are enough advocates out there.
• 1:18:56
  And, you know, it's unfortunate. And my heart goes out to men and
• 1:19:01
  women convicted on murder cases where they were innocent.
• 1:19:05
  And you got advocates out there for these people to be released.
• 1:19:08
  You got advocates for people who get disproportionate sentencing
• 1:19:13
  on drug cases. But we don't have no advocates
• 1:19:16
  for nonviolent white collar people and people who some could
• 1:19:20
  be innocent and some could have been wrongly persecuted and some
• 1:19:26
  just didn't deserve the sentence that they got.
• 1:19:28
  You know, like in a state thing, you know, you hit them and say
• 1:19:32
  you ain't doing anything of the year.
• 1:19:33
  You know, your records clear. So I'm going to be an advocate
• 1:19:37
  and try to drum up support. I love that.
• 1:19:44
  I think you'd be so good at that, McCall.
• 1:19:46
  Like. This brand of people like they
• 1:19:49
  fighting for drug dealers and fighting for people who get
• 1:19:53
  convicted of murder, wrongfully so.
• 1:19:56
  And as I told you, I'd like to see, I'm up.
• 1:19:59
  Listen, President Trump, Republicans aren't the only one.
• 1:20:04
  They are are are that the justice supreme weaponize
• 1:20:08
  themselves against, they weaponize themselves against
• 1:20:11
  whoever they don't like or whoever doesn't kiss their
• 1:20:14
  behind. And so it's not just
• 1:20:16
  Republicans, Mr. President. And just so you know, I've
• 1:20:20
  worked with the president. I've represented him at one
• 1:20:23
  point in Palm Beach. And so talk to him, talk to him
• 1:20:30
  and tell him, you know, that the FBI, when they wanted me to wear
• 1:20:36
  a wire, I asked them this brand. I said, why are you only asking
• 1:20:40
  me about black politicians? I have met a lot of white
• 1:20:44
  politicians in my life. So they wanted to know about
• 1:20:47
  this local developer and they wanted to know about Donald
• 1:20:50
  Trump. And I said no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:20:57
  And subsequently, I had a picture of him and I at Mara
• 1:21:02
  Largo in my office. It was the only frame, the only
• 1:21:06
  picture that the, because they came to my home and they went to
• 1:21:09
  my office in Philadelphia at the same time.
• 1:21:12
  And the only frame, the only picture they broke into pieces
• 1:21:16
  was the picture of now President Trump and myself.
• 1:21:21
  And when they were leaving, they told me not only were they going
• 1:21:26
  to get my my friend Shaka Fattah, but they were going to
• 1:21:29
  get him eventually, too. Now, that was in 2011.
• 1:21:33
  So there's a lot of truth to some of the things he's
• 1:21:35
  speaking. And so I want to be an advocate
• 1:21:39
  for nonviolent white collar people who've been convicted.
• 1:21:45
  I also would like to testify to Congress and, and, and help them
• 1:21:49
  figure out along with this justice system is why do people
• 1:21:55
  who need want to pardon have to go through the same agency that
• 1:21:59
  was a part of prosecuting them? That just makes no sense
• 1:22:03
  whatsoever. And so I hope Congress changes
• 1:22:07
  that. That should be a panel of of
• 1:22:11
  civic minded people who you know who aren't pushovers, but who
• 1:22:16
  aren't part of a system that persecuted and prosecuted you in
• 1:22:22
  the first place. Yeah, I, I totally agree,
• 1:22:26
  Michael. And then all those things need
• 1:22:27
  to happen. And if any, if any of those
• 1:22:30
  things happen, it's a huge improvement.
• 1:22:33
  I want to ask you something though, is after going through
• 1:22:38
  everything that you've gone through the, in the tough St.
• 1:22:42
  Streets of Philadelphia and and and building things up and and
• 1:22:47
  and and the shame of the prison thing and then working your way
• 1:22:50
  through that. What do you think's your biggest
• 1:22:53
  take away through all of it? I should add, I also, you know,
• 1:22:56
  spent a lot of time growing up in Flushing, Queens, NY, so I
• 1:23:00
  had tough streets, you know, all the way around.
• 1:23:03
  All the way around. And, and, and the take away, you
• 1:23:08
  know, is that you, you got to have faith in something to get
• 1:23:14
  through this. Yeah, you, you got to have
• 1:23:17
  something to hold on to because even when you have faith,
• 1:23:22
  because my faith has been questioned a number of times,
• 1:23:26
  like, you know, if you wanted to teach me a lesson, God, you
• 1:23:32
  couldn't do it. No other way to send me to
• 1:23:34
  Pensacola. You couldn't do it no other way.
• 1:23:37
  But you do have to have faith. It's great if you have family,
• 1:23:41
  family support. So I'm not sure in terms of, you
• 1:23:46
  know, the take away print. I, I, I can tell you this.
• 1:23:49
  I didn't lose. I learned.
• 1:23:52
  I love that though, that that should be on a T-shirt and, and,
• 1:23:56
  and as long as we look at it that way, that's a mindset that
• 1:23:59
  you live with. As long as you don't think
• 1:24:00
  you've lost, that you learned something and you can move
• 1:24:03
  forward because it's all about stepping the next step forward,
• 1:24:06
  next step forward. And those are small wins and
• 1:24:08
  celebrate the small wins because that, you know, you look back
• 1:24:11
  and you've gotten a lot further than you thought.
• 1:24:14
  And I think that's a that's a great, I like that phrase.
• 1:24:17
  I really do, Michael. It's a good that's a good way to
• 1:24:19
  end it because that's a great phrase for anybody who's
• 1:24:22
  listening. This goes into 1100 prisons for
• 1:24:24
  those out there. Re entry is not easy, but you
• 1:24:26
  can get through it if you just keep stepping, have the right
• 1:24:29
  mindset. You're going to get knocked
• 1:24:31
  down, get back up because I have something to get back up for.
• 1:24:35
  And I, I think that's always a key.
• 1:24:38
  Have something to get back up for, whatever that is.
• 1:24:40
  Find that thing and and step back into it.
• 1:24:43
  Keep doing I want to say. Keep doing what you're doing.
• 1:24:47
  I appreciate it, Michael. Because what you're doing is
• 1:24:50
  meaningful. It's the difference.
• 1:24:52
  I appreciate. Between having something that
• 1:24:57
  you can look to as a resource that could be helpful to a lot
• 1:25:01
  of different people, people that you don't even know and you'll
• 1:25:03
  never know their name, you were blessed.
• 1:25:06
  So keep doing what you're doing, my friend.
• 1:25:08
  I appreciate that Michelle. I just want to give a shout out
• 1:25:11
  talking about gratitude here and what how we feel about things.
• 1:25:14
  Homestead Financial lets me use all this fancy stuff in this
• 1:25:17
  equipment room. If you've got home mortgage
• 1:25:21
  needs, they're your people and Greg after you have knows it
• 1:25:23
  better than anybody. If you're looking for a book out
• 1:25:27
  there, I've got 1. It's nightmare success.
• 1:25:31
  Here it is. Check it out on Amazon and if
• 1:25:36
  you got time, leave a review on Apple.
• 1:25:38
  That helps the show too. If you want to know more about
• 1:25:40
  me, brentcassidy.com, I spell it wrong.
• 1:25:42
  I spell it with a Ty, not a DY, as I used to say to my people
• 1:25:47
  when I was writing back and forth from Leavenworth.
• 1:25:49
  Stay strong, I'll do the same. Mikel Jones, thank you so much
• 1:25:53
  man. I appreciate it today.
• 1:25:55
  Thank you man, stay safe. Nightmare success in and out.