Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jon Arnold about his choice of Legend of the Sea Devils

Transcript

Talks to Jon Arnold about his choice of Legend of the Sea Devils · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None hamster with a blunt penknife
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  for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
• 0:39
  Welcome back to hamster with a blunt penknife.
• 0:42
  I'm new here I Jarrell and with me, as ever, is everyone's
• 0:48
  favorite podcast host ever, Joe Ford, You're.
• 0:53
  Many ones by. Oh, come on.
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  After that intro with you, your theme guitar, you're you're
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  singing. Oh, glorious.
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  That ain't me though. I was.
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  Saying I always thought it was. No, sorry, that's my mate.
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  I'm going to do a theme tune for you.
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  I went, I don't need one. And then he did it.
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  I was like give it here, I want it.
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  That's. Perfect, John, I'd like to sing
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  you a song if that's OK. You may.
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  It may give all the listeners the clue as to what we're going
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  to talk about today. You ready?
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  I'm all good. I'm all on tent hooks here.
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  There once was a ship. I'll tell you this, the name of
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  the ship is the TARDIS. I think that's all I know
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  actually. That's about.
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  What I know I mean what a fabulous teaser for this.
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  Oh well, come on, who doesn't love a bit of buckling of the
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  Swash? Everybody, by all accounts.
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  Yeah, well, everyone is a miserable bastard, let's face
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  it. I think I'm I'm going to need to
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  give you some stats before we go into talking about legends and
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  the Singapore. Are you here for some stats?
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  I know Jr. don't spreadsheets. I know stats.
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  Let's do them. Oh, I'm.
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  Sort of making these up so Jr. That's fair enough.
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  Speeding in his grave because we have already decided that he's
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  dead tonight, haven't we? Yeah, exactly.
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  They're the best kind of stats are the ones that are made-up.
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  Well, it didn't come from. Bottom bottom of the the Jodie
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  Whisker poem Doctor Who magazine.
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  So I would say not entirely highly regarded and my Co host
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  was strictly come handsome. Rob Brown declared this the
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  single worst episode of Doctor Who ever broadcast.
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  Where's the joy in yourself, Rod?
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  Have you sat through underworld? Rod, Come on.
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  Where's the monster? A Peloton.
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  He loves both fellows. He's mad.
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  He's Oh no. Well, before we sort of extol
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  any virtues that are here, do you understand why people don't
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  like this? I I think as well, part of it is
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  the expectations and I, I think there's the other episode which
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  suffers from this is Planet of the Dead, because both of them
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  are kind of marketed as specials as these big, you know, these
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  big episodes you're meant to expect more from.
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  And particularly this apart from the Oversea Devils, is it that,
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  is it that special? It, it's kind of a normal
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  episode. It's even normal episode length.
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  And I understand, yeah, there's, there's some issues with the
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  editing, with the pacing and I think people were coming to the
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  end of the chimney area here. And essentially, let's face it,
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  people know that the power of doctors count, and that's what
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  they're waiting for. Although I do think people got
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  excited in that trailer at the end of even of the Darling.
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  Remember when the the Sea Devil was sort of blurred and then
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  came into focus? Oh, is it?
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  Is it legend? And that's I thought, Oh yeah, I
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  was like, Oh yes, I. Blinked the CGI eyes.
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  I was like, I'll bring it on, baby.
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  I was, yeah. I was all in straight at that
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  point. I didn't care.
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  Well, actually I've got a I've got a question sort of about the
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  era as a whole, because I don't really know where you fought
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  with this. So Chibnall's era, Jodie's era,
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  13's era, was it? Is this a dog for you?
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  Is this something that you like but it's flawed?
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  Do you love it? Where'd you fall?
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  I, I kind of felt that I'm not a big fan of season 11 or series
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  11. I, I because I like my Doctor
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  Who a bit funny a bit with and there wasn't enough of that
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  there for me. I.
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  Get that and. Then I think you get, you get
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  some like spiteful and onwards. They've realized what worked
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  out. You know, you see Bradley Walsh
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  as much as possible, while he's not presenting the chase, make
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  it a bit more funny and make it a bit more faster.
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  Move along. And from that point, what's
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  more, where you can get to know the characters and like the
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  characters and they're getting some good lines.
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  That's where I go. Yeah, this is a good version of
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  Doctor Who Knows Me. I, I enjoy this a lot, which
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  that's easy. I'm not good.
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  I don't fully enjoy. There are good episodes, great
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  moments, great performances, but that's the only time I've kind
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  of struggled since the mid 80s on Doctor Who.
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  When the flux here, I really felt as if I felt as if John
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  Bishop was given. The scripts are once over
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  because all of a sudden the comedy lines of the Chibnow era
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  that I've been a bit flat for me were all landing.
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  I'm like, this is something. I'm quite witty and energetic
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  and colourful. What's going on like?
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  And and and it's just being this kind of roof.
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  It's this rueful world, not worldly friends, but he's a daft
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  presence. And that was what I wanted, what
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  was kind of missing for me. So kind of think that little
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  thing Bradley watch is great, but he's not that kind of got
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  that energy because of his age. Yeah, yeah.
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  And then I feel like for me, Flux was a big success because I
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  just like the ambition of it. I like the fact that it was a
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  long story, lots of characters, lots of locations, lots of
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  visual ambition. But then I loved even the
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  dialects as well, which sort of brought it all down into one
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  setting and just told her, I think Johnny Morris said in the
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  Strictly he did. It's like a computer game where
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  you have to figure out the rules.
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  And once you do, the Daleks and the Doctor both figure out the
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  rules and then they start, you know, both manipulating the
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  loops to their own ends, really sort of clever.
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  And obviously, Power of the Daleks is this enormous, epic,
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  expensive return to all this nostalgia that a lot of people
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  loved. People's issues in this mini
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  season is what we're about to watch today.
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  Yeah, it gets lost in the middle of them, but you know, I've
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  rewatched the, you know, the, the value added material, the,
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  the, the special features on DVDs and you're watching that
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  meant to go in. This isn't, this is meant to be
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  special. They, they, you know, they built
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  this massive set for it. This is this big part of what
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  everyone's going on and having laugh and having fun.
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  They spent money on recreating the Sea Devil, just slightly
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  resigning them. There's a lot of love gone into
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  it. You know, even the darks, as I
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  understand, was essentially that extra episode.
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  I was going to ask you that if it was this one or that one, so
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  it would have been this and power and that was it.
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  Yeah, and then either does it's, you know, it, it's that very
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  limited locations, lowish budget, as low budget as Doctor
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  Who gets, I think. But, you know, everyone adored
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  that bit. I agree with you on that as
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  well. It yeah, it's messy.
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  Maybe it doesn't stick landing, but a lot of Doctor Who doesn't
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  stick landing. It's it's doing different things
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  with every episode. I, you know, I'd love you.
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  You're sort of Once Upon a time, which, yeah, it's wheel
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  spinning, but it's bizarre. And that's my one of my
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  favourite scenes in the whole year in that is with it's Jodi
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  Amanda in the police car and it's, it's the first time I
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  thought you're getting what you see on those behind the scenes
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  features, the personalities that are peeking through there.
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  Yes, that's what I want to see look more of that.
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  And it's it's making a virtue of that COVID, you know what the
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  restrictions on it. Well, obviously we're going to
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  explore a little bit. No, the 13 years, will they,
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  won't they in this episode? Too little, too late?
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  Or does it work? I I think it's one thing.
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  I I don't think it was there in the original material, but then
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  it's something when made when the actor they got that and it's
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  played into it more in later episodes.
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  I understand. I know we'll come to the scene.
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  I understand. I think it is kind of very thin
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  gruel if particularly if you used to weigh, say Russell T
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  Davis writes a relationship. We've had that long ongoing rose
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  song storyline. But to me, and I, and I said I
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  will get it, but I think to a large extent that those last
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  scenes between them, they kind of reminiscent they they
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  recently with the doctor you saw and can you hear me at the end
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  there who can't talk to Bradley Walsh about his beers?
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  It's that emotionally not quite literate.
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  It's very much in line with that Matt Smith kind of doctor, the
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  one who can't say goodbye or and who doesn't want things going,
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  can't deal with endings. And that it's really nicely laid
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  in on character stuff. But, you know, for those who
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  want, you've want the queer romance on the show.
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  I think it is quite thin fare that they've been tried.
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  Yeah. They they, they're being, you
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  know, they're being given a, a, a like a fast food meal at a
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  banquet. I someone gave you a reading
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  recently that I heard saying that it's playing into two
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  people that love being together. Yeah, but in different ways.
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  And the the Doctor just doesn't have that sort of romantic
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  interest. But she's a busy mate, whereas
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  Yaz has found herself and we've been there, right?
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  I've been there. Oh God.
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  And so I can't, I'm entirely on Yaz's like, I feel everything
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  she's feeling. And actually, I do think in
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  either the Daleks, it's so beautifully played how it's
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  reveals via that scene with her and dad and then Dan calling out
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  the Doctor and going, no, no, you know how she feels.
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  Like, what are you doing? Why are you pretending this
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  isn't happening? And then I remember in Power of
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  the Docks are the very last scenes they have together in the
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  TARDIS where Yas is just holding back those two.
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  And I was really moved. I'm like, yeah, this is sort of
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  what wasn't there at the beginning of this run.
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  It's all sort of landing now. You know you've got it it.
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  Yeah, and it works for the character.
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  It's it's really nice character development.
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  I think the problem she doesn't have a lot to play in those
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  scripts. Early I, I think from Flux,
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  that's when they were like, oh, oh, we've got a really good
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  actress here. Yeah, let's give her something
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  to do. And it's yeah, and and she when
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  she gets a material, she sparkles you.
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  Remember that bit in In Power of the Doctor when Sasha Dewan is
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  like, I am the doctor right in her face and she's there in
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  tears, holding back the fear but just staying in his face?
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  I'm like, that is a really great actress there.
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  Yeah, it's the choices she make. It's just we'll come to some of
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  them in this. And the way she plays some of
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  the material on this is gorgeous.
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  Well, look, we've got, I think it's 45 minutes, like 47 minutes
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  and 38 seconds of this absolute tribe.
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  I mean, classic the watch. Should we jump in and see what
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  Legends of the Sea Delgalls has to offer?
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  Let's. Do it.
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  OK, OK, Now I don't know if I'm actually going to be crawler on
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  this than you, but let's see where we end up in five.
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  This is for everybody else. Now I'm sharing a screen 432.
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  Off we go here. We go first stop two-story thing
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  with two. First time, first time writer,
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  director if I'm not mistaken. Is it both women?
• 12:22
  Yes, I think it's Chris Chills on the Cobra.
• 12:24
  Chris Chris Chills a Co writer. But yeah, it's Ella, Rhode and
• 12:29
  Halo Wonk. Do you imagine he wrote the the
• 12:33
  Doctor YASBIS and then? I would have thought so.
• 12:37
  Yeah, I was. I was figured when Moffett was
• 12:39
  Co writing that he was always doing the sort of Arc stuff or
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  the regular stuff and. Yeah, just and just polishing up
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  the little character dialogue. Oh, you.
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  How good is she in this? Yeah, really good.
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  I didn't really know anything about.
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  I didn't even know it was a real historical character if I'm
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  honest. Yeah, I I wouldn't have known
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  and I, we'll come to it. But Dan has some ridiculous
• 13:05
  knowledge. No one's going to do that from
• 13:07
  our century in our country. He's got the ladybug book of
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  Yeah. What's her name again?
• 13:13
  It's Madame Wu. Madame, I say.
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  Yeah. Yeah, here we go.
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  See Village. I mean, I will say this has got
• 13:24
  an, I think this has got a very large production.
• 13:27
  I think the costumes are nice and exotic.
• 13:31
  It's got a wonderful score. The location work is great.
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  Like you said, the sets are brilliant.
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  In terms of money being on the screen in times of COVID, I
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  think this is the business. I, I I love that sea devil
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  statue as well. You just look at, I go.
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  Why is that there? And so, well, why is that there?
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  I presume it's because the treasures close close at hand,
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  so they've imprisoned him sort of that necklace at Randy's neck
• 14:01
  and. I wonder if some of the person
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  and plot points are missing because of the eddies.
• 14:09
  I think so, I I still aren't quite sure quite as to why there
• 14:12
  it was. It was whether Slot changed or
• 14:14
  did hear rumours about cultural insensitivity.
• 14:19
  Oh really? What Did you hear what it was?
• 14:21
  No, I, I didn't use just the, you know, because they've talked
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  doctor to to the Chinese broadcasters and they said they
• 14:29
  were unhappy with certain aspects.
• 14:31
  But I don't know if that's true or not.
• 14:32
  That's just the rumour on it, the either statue or like.
• 14:36
  That you've got to remember, this is the same writer who
• 14:39
  wanted to show the death of what was the name?
• 14:43
  Oh, in in the in the. Skyfall, yeah.
• 14:48
  Oh, that's a lovely ending though.
• 14:50
  The sword coming down. Beautiful cat.
• 14:54
  So what do you think about the oily puddle of the Jodie Whisker
• 14:58
  title sequence? See, I quite like it because
• 15:01
  it's, it's a kind of a it's trying to flash back, isn't it,
• 15:04
  to the, the early days, just the, the kind of the bizarre
• 15:07
  images on screen. It's not the only thing in
• 15:10
  Series 11 that's harken back to the early days, is it?
• 15:13
  No God no, we did it's but I'm thinking about Chris Chibnall
• 15:17
  goes back to that, but he doesn't understand why they did
• 15:20
  it then and why it doesn't really work in a 4550 minute
• 15:23
  episode. That shot is gorgeous.
• 15:26
  The ship on the water. Yeah, look at Tara's coming in
• 15:31
  on that Bay. Yeah.
• 15:33
  I mean, to me, the actual composition that shots is it's
• 15:36
  lovely on this. I've got to be honest with you,
• 15:39
  I live by the seaside and I don't think Doctor Who goes to
• 15:41
  the seaside often enough for my taste.
• 15:43
  Well. Well, everyone's a beats
• 15:45
  eventually. Well, it's true.
• 15:48
  What is that from the oldest? Third time, boom.
• 15:53
  That's what I've heard it this week.
• 15:54
  OK, exactly. Yeah, Jovi's outfit here though,
• 15:57
  how gorgeous is that? I don't think it's the best
• 15:59
  outfit. Yeah, I've heard a lot of people
• 16:02
  say that as well. Yeah.
• 16:03
  Do you, I mean, are you, do you object to the usual outfit, the
• 16:08
  sort of straight out of the gap I.
• 16:10
  Thought it was better influx when she's wearing the darker
• 16:13
  version of it. I thought it was too.
• 16:15
  Lucky the jacket she wore in resolution.
• 16:17
  I like that as well. Yeah, that's got, I'm making use
• 16:22
  of that career dual. That's the only time they have
• 16:23
  any kind of reason for that. Julie.
• 16:26
  OK. John Bishop, he comes out and he
• 16:27
  sells that gag, doesn't he, about the the doctor treating
• 16:31
  the pair with a lot of big kids. It's beautiful.
• 16:34
  Although can I point out something else a little
• 16:36
  insensitive? Yeah.
• 16:39
  Oh, I love the skimming of the I love, I love skimming on the
• 16:42
  sea. But the the thing of it flying
• 16:45
  off is great. So he comes out.
• 16:47
  Yeah. With a peg leg.
• 16:49
  Yes, as an amputee. And they're making big jokes
• 16:53
  about it. And then at the end of the
• 16:54
  episode, he phones his misses to be who is.
• 16:58
  If you said bugger off. I'm not sure they they'd really
• 17:04
  thought that one through, but there we go.
• 17:06
  No. I think hearing, but they, I
• 17:11
  think they look great, the three of them.
• 17:13
  I think that's that's a good TARDIS team.
• 17:15
  Actually, it's a great TARDIS team.
• 17:16
  They tend to take that. Here we go, see that.
• 17:18
  Nothing like you've known them before.
• 17:22
  Did you see the behind the scenes of the guys wearing the
• 17:24
  masks? Oh yeah.
• 17:26
  And menacing Jodie Whittaker. Oh.
• 17:30
  God bless you. That's that's brilliant acting
• 17:31
  on her part. So OK, so they've ravished this
• 17:36
  place now? Oh, this was the shot from the
• 17:38
  trailer, wasn't it? Yes, comes across into focus.
• 17:41
  There you go. He's got so much effort on that
• 17:45
  mask. I love to go Sea Devil Lampire.
• 17:48
  So I said, yeah, it's just OK, you're going to insult us with
• 17:52
  kind of racist terms when I'm coming straight back at you.
• 17:55
  Love it. Although Capaldi would have gone
• 17:57
  oh that's so racist wouldn't it? What I find strange about this
• 18:03
  scene now, and I swear something has been cut out here, is that
• 18:06
  they've got this ready made trap than the Sea Devil, but they've
• 18:09
  only just arrived. Yeah, this is this is
• 18:12
  particularly earlier in the episode.
• 18:14
  There's, I think it's a bit where this we're going to come
• 18:16
  to a bit where Dan gets onto the boat as well.
• 18:18
  That feels so chopped. So I wonder if there's like a an
• 18:23
  hour version of this, that it just takes place on a much more
• 18:27
  relaxed pace. Yeah, I think there has to be
• 18:31
  somewhere that would, you know, it's, it's one of these that
• 18:33
  seems right to me for a director's cut release
• 18:37
  eventually. I don't know if it'll ever
• 18:39
  happen the way, you know, DVDs etcetera go these days because
• 18:43
  you haven't seen any extra footage at all.
• 18:45
  Maybe it would be lovely. I just think the the CGI
• 18:48
  manipulation of the face is just wonderful.
• 18:52
  You can see here you can see which one's on the masks and
• 18:55
  which one is there. Is is the money Sea Devil?
• 18:59
  I don't see devils in 1970 China.
• 19:01
  Yeah, again, you do get a lot of that radio dialogue, but they do
• 19:06
  sell it. And I love, I love that flying
• 19:08
  ship, a a flying pirate ship. What more do you want from your
• 19:11
  Doctor Who? I think Jody's now been doing
• 19:14
  this sort of dialogue for five years.
• 19:16
  So. So I'll let you know a little
• 19:17
  secret, right? My other half Grid.
• 19:20
  So a scene from Power of the Doctor was filmed at his work
• 19:23
  and someone left 3 pages of the script behind.
• 19:27
  And obviously this is years before he came out.
• 19:30
  And well, for one thing, it had the names Ace and Tegan on it.
• 19:35
  So we knew about that like two years before it was actually
• 19:38
  announced. I kept saying to him, Oh, it's
• 19:40
  bullshit. They left you a dummy script.
• 19:42
  But also there was this sequence, you know, a bit where
• 19:44
  she goes into the volcanology that the the master shrunk all
• 19:49
  the people and she has to come in, go in.
• 19:51
  I've just been to your cyber planet with a quarrence and all
• 19:55
  of this fucking exposition that nobody would say in real life,
• 19:58
  right. And I read it on the page and
• 19:59
  went. There's no way anyone could
• 20:01
  deliver that line. And then Jodi did it in power of
• 20:04
  the Doctor, and it was effortless.
• 20:07
  She's got her mouth around this, these words now.
• 20:10
  Oh. Yeah, I mean how many other
• 20:13
  doctors could cope with that dialogue as well?
• 20:15
  A good doctor has to sell you the weaker bits of and she had a
• 20:19
  lot of selling to do lesser. I don't dislike Chris Chignor
• 20:23
  particularly, he seems to really sound bloke, but he writes for
• 20:27
  radio. I, I don't know if it's this
• 20:28
  thing about your second screen, they call it where they go, they
• 20:31
  insist where you have to have almost to describe to the viewer
• 20:36
  who's, you know, half looking at their phone or whatever.
• 20:40
  No, it's TV. It's a visual medium that they
• 20:43
  should be watching properly. If they're not paying attention,
• 20:45
  screw them. Yeah, You know, I mean, I
• 20:48
  prefer, God help me for saying this.
• 20:50
  I prefer the Moffett approach of to keep people interested.
• 20:53
  Every two minutes I'll throw in another curveball, a visual
• 20:56
  curveball. So people go oh, and pay
• 20:58
  attention. Wait, oops, that that ocean
• 21:01
  demon. I love that because it might, it
• 21:03
  gives the end to the idea you might have this kind of slightly
• 21:06
  different translation from languages.
• 21:08
  Maybe ocean demon see them? That's a really kind of nice,
• 21:12
  subtle moment on there. Look at that army of sea devils.
• 21:16
  That's fantastic. Come on Barry, let's would be
• 21:18
  absolutely creaming his knickers if he could see that.
• 21:22
  Barry's really going, oh, why couldn't we do this?
• 21:24
  Even with Sea Shark, we we should have done better.
• 21:28
  Mind you. Oh, hang on, is this where that
• 21:29
  fabulous off? I thought it was going to be the
• 21:31
  Merca, you know, the sea creature.
• 21:33
  Let's face it, it is the. Merca.
• 21:35
  It is an older name. Oh, they should have gone for a
• 21:40
  sort of similar design, though. You know they've gone for a
• 21:42
  fabulous something that could have been in a wonderful
• 21:45
  Japanese movie, is what we get. It's it's a what's he's got he's
• 21:50
  just on the sea on he's a read this and no weather fishermen
• 21:53
  anywhere within 1,000,000 miles. Look, it's time of COVID, all
• 21:55
  right? He's got to be around anyone.
• 21:59
  I look at it again, this sort of, it builds attention nicely.
• 22:03
  You know, it's, it's taking those kind of lessons with Jaws.
• 22:06
  You got skill score builds with you.
• 22:07
  What's going on? What's going on?
• 22:09
  And do you know what? We're watching this, obviously
• 22:11
  without listening to the dialogue.
• 22:12
  We've got subtitles up, but just purely visually, I think this is
• 22:16
  really striking. Yeah, it it's it isn't come
• 22:20
  nearly that horror movie moment, isn't it?
• 22:22
  Jesus Christ, John. Well, the pair of us have both
• 22:27
  been eaten. I mean it.
• 22:28
  It's gone. It's the camera.
• 22:30
  We'd be gobbled. It won't be the first time or on
• 22:36
  a recording if I'm honest. Well, yeah, sometimes you have
• 22:39
  to lighten them up. Keeps up.
• 22:40
  Interesting. Why do we like Dan so much?
• 22:43
  Like I don't think there's much to his character, but I really
• 22:45
  like him. This.
• 22:47
  This known? Yeah.
• 22:49
  There's no real again, it's such a there's no detail to it.
• 22:54
  Almost. It's all.
• 22:54
  I don't know if he likes letting the actors find the character or
• 22:57
  something, but it's John Bishop. Yeah.
• 22:59
  It's it's his energy and his presence that makes it.
• 23:02
  Yeah, this, this feels really quick.
• 23:04
  You know, he goes, you know, I tell a lot to wander off and
• 23:07
  then, oh, he's wandered off that, that always feels a bit
• 23:10
  too quick. It feels like a little bit
• 23:12
  missing in. There, the boat's all the way
• 23:13
  over there, and the next time we'll see them, they're just
• 23:15
  climbing on. Aren't they going?
• 23:16
  I feel like there's a scene of them rowing across or something
• 23:19
  that we're not seeing. Yeah.
• 23:20
  Like just a gag or something that they maybe had to cut for
• 23:23
  the timing or whatever. I will say though, I think it's
• 23:26
  a savvy choice to have Jodie and Mandip together for most of the
• 23:31
  episode because they're shorthand now is great.
• 23:35
  Yeah, I'm just look, they, they know, they know the rhythms of
• 23:38
  each other. You know what they're going to
• 23:40
  do with the dialogue, the way they're going to play it.
• 23:42
  So, you know, I know they don't do the full rehearsals like we,
• 23:47
  they used to do in, you know, in the 20th century, because that's
• 23:49
  not the way T VS made anymore. But they play off each other so
• 23:53
  it feels natural. It's what you said earlier about
• 23:57
  the chemistry between the actors bleeding onto the screen, and by
• 24:01
  this point they're basically finishing each other's
• 24:03
  sentences. Yeah, I I mean, this is
• 24:06
  something that didn't always come across in the other actors.
• 24:08
  They're having fun. Yes.
• 24:12
  And this and that to me does come across on the screen.
• 24:15
  I think so too. I I do wish they'd had a kiss, I
• 24:19
  really do. I wish, I wish Jodie had just
• 24:22
  tried, although then that would have made her rejecting her even
• 24:26
  worse so. Oh, it's been heartbreaking.
• 24:30
  Would would Russell have played that, though?
• 24:31
  I think Russell. Would Russell would have Adam
• 24:33
  kiss? He would play that.
• 24:34
  Beat for sure. It gives the audience the the
• 24:38
  spark there. I've got to say, you know, I
• 24:40
  never thought I'd say this, but Dan Bishop looks so hot or wet
• 24:43
  like that out straight out of the sea.
• 24:46
  Yeah, and he shot. And again, he shot for that
• 24:49
  heroic effect, isn't he? And should I walk against some?
• 24:55
  Oh, this bit. I love this line.
• 24:57
  Go on. Yeah, if you you must be really
• 24:59
  good about Spike to be 70. It's the look.
• 25:06
  That's what I say now when people guess my eyes.
• 25:09
  Are you 55? What?
• 25:12
  Just the look at, look at our face, ourselves, It's just the
• 25:14
  comedy chops. You know, this is up against
• 25:18
  some stiff competition in Doctor Who history.
• 25:20
  You know, Curse of the Black Spot, That's the other pirate
• 25:25
  story and the smugglers. So how would you rank the three?
• 25:29
  As a pirate story, I put this. And how does she get them up
• 25:33
  there on her own? There's two of them and she
• 25:35
  manages to hold, get them tied up and hold them up there on
• 25:38
  their. Own I think in ideal
• 25:39
  circumstances she would have had a full complement of crew on
• 25:42
  that ship because it's weird that it's just her.
• 25:45
  Again, obviously we're in times of COVID.
• 25:47
  Maybe this wasn't the right time to tell this story when we
• 25:50
  couldn't have had a big guest cast.
• 25:54
  You know, if she's Esper with them dogs and getting people
• 25:56
  hold up there. She got a bondage dungeon in
• 25:58
  there. Maybe just one line saying, well
• 26:01
  my crew have hauled you up there and now they're all having a
• 26:04
  nice bit of dinner. Oh.
• 26:08
  But go on, rank the three. Oh, that's three of them.
• 26:13
  Obviously the smuggler's a bit awkward.
• 26:14
  I'd like the smuggler. I'd probably put Curse the Black
• 26:17
  Spot bottom because it's trying. I think the story with the siren
• 26:22
  and the emotional beats doesn't quite match with the pirate
• 26:25
  story. It, you know, it doesn't quite
• 26:27
  buck us off. Karen Gillan gets to do some
• 26:29
  great stuff that. Is, but it's not.
• 26:31
  Quite as thrilling as it needs to be.
• 26:33
  As soon as you end up on that spaceship at the end, I'm lost.
• 26:36
  Yeah, and and then, and I'll say I didn't always run, but I put
• 26:40
  the smugglers. Then again, William Hartman's
• 26:44
  great. He's having he's having a way of
• 26:46
  a time in that one. He knows the material, he's
• 26:49
  playing his pastiche and he's he enjoys it.
• 26:52
  And and it's, you know, Annika and Michael Crais again, they,
• 26:59
  they sell that early companion stuff.
• 27:01
  Beautifully bit in the cell when they're spooking the ball, of
• 27:06
  course. But as opposed to I have stopped
• 27:09
  because it does. It remembers a pirates.
• 27:12
  It needs to be exciting. It's it's more like, you know,
• 27:15
  say what you'd expect from Errol Flynn, that type, that type of
• 27:19
  thing. It's your classic kids Saturday
• 27:21
  morning movie. But, you know, like it it.
• 27:24
  It shows you the huge Vista of the sea like you'd get in a
• 27:27
  pirate movie. It builds the enormous sets.
• 27:29
  There's a swashbuckling fight. You know, all the things you'd
• 27:32
  expect to see in a pirate movie are here.
• 27:35
  This spectacle there, it's it is trying to be something big.
• 27:39
  I I say again, I love, I love this bit.
• 27:41
  Why shouldn't the sea devil have kind of Mystic if a humans
• 27:45
  humans can do this kind of thing?
• 27:47
  Yeah, watch it. The races that should have had
• 27:48
  also do it. Are you a big fan of Super Mario
• 27:51
  Brothers? You know how he could leap in?
• 27:54
  All OH. Yeah, like to see devil.
• 27:56
  Yeah. People really had an issue with
• 27:59
  that, didn't they? And I was like, what's cool?
• 28:01
  What? Get over it, you know?
• 28:03
  Yes. And actually this is nice
• 28:05
  because we've gone back in time though, haven't we?
• 28:07
  So we're adding a bit of time travel to this as well, which I
• 28:12
  think works pretty well, although they have slapped a
• 28:15
  heavy filter over all these scenes.
• 28:16
  Oh. God, yes, it you look, it's it's
• 28:19
  very the weather again. It's almost like Axos, isn't it?
• 28:22
  But all the different weather. In I find in Lake Moffett I'm
• 28:28
  mostly series 9 and sometimes in Late Jodie.
• 28:32
  They do love a filter. Yeah, lots of Browns, but, but
• 28:37
  they've got to that case. Oh, it's all filters, isn't it?
• 28:41
  Do you object to all the technobabble you get in this
• 28:43
  story? It's so unusual for Doctor Who
• 28:45
  to have as much technobabble as in this.
• 28:47
  Yeah, it's almost like an excuse for going forward and backward,
• 28:51
  isn't it? It's just, again, it's, I don't
• 28:54
  have that much a problem with technobabble.
• 28:56
  It's just to me, it's there to move the plant if it kind of
• 28:58
  makes sense on its own terms. I'm always quite happy.
• 29:01
  It's like, well, the track one you take, you take it for
• 29:04
  granted in track. I think that is the best
• 29:09
  representation of the vortex you're ever going to see.
• 29:11
  It's leaping out of one place and then going down a tunnel and
• 29:16
  then turning around and then being sucked down on another.
• 29:19
  Shiny, it's thrilling, it's AI see and this again this, you
• 29:23
  know, the the bottom of the ocean.
• 29:25
  This is the best scene in the episode.
• 29:26
  John. Yes, where?
• 29:29
  And it's the character beats that they integrate into it as
• 29:31
  well. But it's beautiful as well.
• 29:35
  It's visually stunning that the TARDIS light with the fish going
• 29:39
  around the top. Yeah, that's when they turn
• 29:42
  around and you can see the fish there and oh.
• 29:45
  I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think, and I know this
• 29:49
  is a heavy objection of Dylan Reece's as well, I don't think
• 29:53
  I'm seeing as much money on the screen in RTD two as I was
• 29:58
  seeing on the screen in Late Jodie.
• 30:00
  I think RTD does make what TV he's thinking of TV.
• 30:04
  He's always thinking that scale. And I think the other show don't
• 30:08
  necessarily think in those terms.
• 30:10
  They don't think it's OK. This is what we could put
• 30:12
  honestly, they I'm not a bad day.
• 30:14
  I love she's trying, you know, look at the look at the smile.
• 30:18
  She's got a hopeful smile on that.
• 30:21
  And and it shocks. Mad, mad tips.
• 30:24
  Sorry. Like, I know her.
• 30:26
  I've only met her once. OK.
• 30:27
  For a nice big hug, though. It shocks, yes.
• 30:29
  And then all of a sudden Jodi's back into the story.
• 30:33
  And look at the way Mandip looks at her.
• 30:36
  Yeah. And there's the lovely bit
• 30:38
  again. We'll cook and we'll come back
• 30:40
  to it. It's when they try.
• 30:42
  She tries to finish the conversation again.
• 30:44
  It's an action point so she can dodge out, like she's got room
• 30:48
  to dodge out the conversation. It's such a good character beat.
• 30:50
  Which is why I do like the scene at the end when all the plot's
• 30:53
  over and she can't avoid the conversation anymore.
• 30:56
  And we've been talking about going to a beach since even the
• 30:59
  Daleks. So it does feel like a
• 31:01
  resolution of all of that, even if, even if you don't really
• 31:05
  like what it's saying, at least they're taking the time to do
• 31:09
  it. Again, this they go with this
• 31:15
  book. Yeah, it's again a great visual
• 31:20
  image here. Jesus Christ, the Tardis has
• 31:24
  been eaten. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:26
  The TARDIS in the jaws, the motto.
• 31:28
  What a beautiful image again. I'm not sure how Rod could
• 31:31
  possibly say this is the worst option story ever when there's a
• 31:34
  scene like that in it. It's it's, you know, yeah.
• 31:39
  The reason I've picked it, I'm sure kept it is because this is
• 31:41
  the one that made my nephew fall in love with Doctor Who is his
• 31:44
  first episode. What?
• 31:45
  Tell me about this. Oh God, yeah.
• 31:48
  It's like, you know, my son's been into Doctor Who sent his
• 31:52
  entire life. My niece, she's she was, she was
• 31:55
  on board a little earlier, but this was kind of the one Eddie
• 31:59
  was at their place and this was on and he watch it and this will
• 32:02
  he's just, it hooked him. And I think it's a really good
• 32:06
  first episode. Which is in terms of like
• 32:09
  pushing the adventure and the colour.
• 32:11
  It's the adventure, the it's, it's not particularly horrific.
• 32:14
  So you know, it's not, you're not going to get behind the sofa
• 32:17
  on it. But there's, it's all sorts of
• 32:20
  interesting things going on. There's some beautiful shots.
• 32:22
  You can read the character, you can see, you know, this comedy
• 32:27
  is spectacle. There's exciting, it's big, it's
• 32:29
  colourful and. I have said it a million times
• 32:32
  recently because I've I've heard a lot of I, I, I say old men,
• 32:37
  but as a root turn, older Doctor Who fans for forgetting what it
• 32:42
  is like to be six years old watching Doctor Who.
• 32:45
  And I think you need to cater for six year olds, you know.
• 32:48
  I love that as well. The year in the box.
• 32:52
  Did you see the sky with all the stars popping a second ago as
• 32:55
  well? And that becomes a plot point as
• 32:58
  well. Yeah.
• 32:59
  I know it's it's John Bishop sells that gang again.
• 33:02
  He says that yours she's got 2. I like the line when there was
• 33:07
  under the war and she goes no ship.
• 33:09
  Sherlock, don't you tell me Chip Will can't write a comedy line.
• 33:14
  Oh mind you, the Wi-Fi family. It's touch and go.
• 33:18
  It's it's a good idea, but it's just doesn't sell it.
• 33:22
  So you what? You watch this one, your nephew?
• 33:24
  And then he went on to just keep watching.
• 33:26
  Yeah, he's he's big. And then you know, because
• 33:28
  obviously I've I've being a tragic.
• 33:30
  I've got all the, you know, the Blu-ray collections.
• 33:34
  They they had my old DVDs. You say tragic, I'll say heroic.
• 33:39
  You are indoctrinating a whole new generation to Doctor Who.
• 33:42
  Come on this. Is it if you spread the spread
• 33:46
  the love around, make your life a little better My my system
• 33:50
  more? Said to me, she goes to me,
• 33:53
  don't you dare. Don't you dare get my daughter
• 33:56
  into Doctor Who. I went all right, I won't, I
• 33:57
  promise. But she just picked up a Dalek,
• 34:00
  right? A Dalek toy I had.
• 34:01
  And she, it was the shape of something she'd never touched
• 34:04
  before and she was so intrigued by it.
• 34:06
  Now she goes round going exterminate, exterminate.
• 34:09
  She's like you bastard. Have you seen the the commentary
• 34:16
  for Boom yet? The video thing.
• 34:18
  I have. Yes, I have.
• 34:19
  Yeah, it's that thing that Moffatt says.
• 34:21
  It's a kid show that the adults are still allowed to watch.
• 34:24
  I think that's a really nice definition.
• 34:25
  It's about, yeah, it is a banjo. But the kid, it's I also kids.
• 34:29
  I don't think he always did that himself.
• 34:31
  Why did he write Heaven Sent then?
• 34:32
  That old man walking around the castle for an hour.
• 34:35
  Or that that whole series. I mean there's I mean, there's
• 34:39
  fun bits in it, but. Yeah, oh, yeah.
• 34:41
  But but it's just, it's not something as a kid you'd go,
• 34:43
  yeah, I'd love this. It's all the excitement, all.
• 34:47
  There was interesting things happening when he was in charge
• 34:49
  and it was hit in America and I think the Americans expected
• 34:53
  sort of Mandalorian or something.
• 34:55
  I'll cut, you know, not so childish, which are is why I
• 34:59
  think Rusty Davis is kind of brave by kick starting with
• 35:01
  space babies saying to the Americans, if you're expecting
• 35:05
  the Mandalorian, well, this is what you're getting.
• 35:06
  All right. Well, this is because Doctor Who
• 35:09
  was fundamentally for us that Saturday evening.
• 35:12
  American fans, it's different because they've got to go and
• 35:14
  find it and it's always on. It was on PBS.
• 35:16
  It was on that late night slot there till the evening.
• 35:18
  It it they always treated as a serious show and it's really not
• 35:22
  a serious show. So who's chippers aiming Doctor
• 35:26
  Who out then overall in his era? Because I think you've got some
• 35:29
  very serious stuff like Rosa and Punjab, 2 episodes that I think
• 35:33
  are absolutely stunning. But then you've got really fun
• 35:37
  stuff like the Flux, like Spyfall, like the Dalek New Year
• 35:40
  specials. I I think he recalibrates it
• 35:44
  after the. Reaction to 11.
• 35:47
  Yes, yeah, Because you know, the 11 I think is one that it, it's
• 35:52
  almost entirely a downhill slide on the ratings.
• 35:55
  And I I don't hold big, I'm not big into the ratings.
• 35:59
  But if that's an every week thing, it's telling you there's
• 36:01
  something up on that, isn't it? I mean, I, I think it happened
• 36:05
  with Jodie. I think it definitely happened
• 36:06
  with Capaldi as well. You know, he started around with
• 36:09
  eight and then was slid to something about 3.
• 36:12
  I, I think it's a natural thing almost now.
• 36:14
  There's always that big spark of interest for you, Doctor.
• 36:17
  And then. Now I think it's irrelevant.
• 36:19
  I think the numbers are pretty irrelevant now.
• 36:22
  But. But it's the the big, the
• 36:24
  important numbers for Doctor now Disney Plus, because that's
• 36:27
  actually and we're not going to learn those.
• 36:29
  I think that's an absolutely raging success.
• 36:31
  So. Have you seen the scene on
• 36:34
  YouTube? Is this scene with the Sea Devil
• 36:36
  and the 13th Doctor where he says quiet to her, but it does
• 36:41
  sound awfully like he says twat when she when she's being really
• 36:45
  sort of gobby. Surely that's why they cut it,
• 36:48
  because you don't. People are going.
• 36:51
  To no. It's in the episode though.
• 36:53
  Oh yeah. God, dear, it's cute, honestly,
• 36:58
  this way you go this big suit, it's it's where you're there,
• 37:03
  isn't it? Should be right?
• 37:03
  Because it's just, Oh yeah, the villain tells you his plans and
• 37:05
  you, like, should walk around his leg just for fun.
• 37:09
  But that is Doctor Who though, right?
• 37:10
  Yeah, it it is, but it's you want to be a bit sparked.
• 37:14
  It is. So with a couple of kind of nice
• 37:16
  tension, a bit of nice fun. But and again, look at this.
• 37:20
  He's got a image in the. Middle of it God a huge cave for
• 37:24
  sea Devil world it is. This is what he tried to do in
• 37:30
  Cold Blood and the Hungry Earth with the Silurian base, but I
• 37:33
  don't think the effects were quite there at that point.
• 37:35
  No. And the yeah, there's the story
• 37:37
  about the effects on season eight.
• 37:38
  I might tell you that at some point.
• 37:39
  Oh, please. Also like as well the the room
• 37:43
  that they're in, they're sort of lichen and seaweed hanging
• 37:46
  everywhere. You know they are.
• 37:48
  It's much better than the black drapes of the Sea Devil base in
• 37:51
  the Sea Devils. There's ambition here, isn't?
• 37:56
  There are they underwater because.
• 37:59
  I think I don't know the the yeah, they are in the water, but
• 38:05
  obviously in in oxygen bubbles and.
• 38:08
  Oh, I see what's going on. That's that's think of the kids
• 38:12
  again. That's quite an exciting idea.
• 38:14
  Yeah, this, This is why I was like, it's, it's a perfect
• 38:18
  receptor for a kid. You could show them this and
• 38:21
  they're not going to be as concerned about, you know, it.
• 38:25
  Is that a choppy edit? Is that choppy storytelling?
• 38:28
  And there is a little bit of that here.
• 38:30
  Definitely, yeah. But it's but it keeps moving.
• 38:33
  It's bastard it's and there's jokes and there's, you know, the
• 38:37
  the leads are reassuring. I know somebody, Jeff Goddard,
• 38:42
  wonderful Doctor Who fan who his favorite Doctor Who, he watches
• 38:46
  it for the imagery more than anything, more than the plots,
• 38:49
  more than the characters is the imagery.
• 38:50
  And that's why Chippers here is his favorite, because he just is
• 38:53
  assaulted by so many sort of visual ambition.
• 38:59
  But it's like, you know, that that's things on the front of
• 39:02
  the 1st. It's that shot.
• 39:03
  I know it's that shot of Jodie just silhouetted.
• 39:05
  And you you see, that's the kind of ambition that God went.
• 39:08
  Yeah, I like that. I do like that for once it's
• 39:15
  not, oh, we just want to take over.
• 39:17
  You know, we, we want our planet back.
• 39:19
  Because that is a little spent now, right?
• 39:21
  Every Sea Devil story has been that now they're like, no, screw
• 39:25
  this, we're literally going to turn the entire Earth into an
• 39:28
  ocean. It's And that does make sense.
• 39:30
  Yeah, exactly. It's it's slightly different
• 39:33
  kind of story. So yeah, we're just taking, not
• 39:37
  taking this shit anymore. Don't care.
• 39:39
  Who's this popping up out of the floor?
• 39:42
  It it's it's the guy from fifteen O 7 or whatever it is.
• 39:46
  Oh. Because it's his ship, isn't it?
• 39:48
  Yeah, and he's a right bastard, actually.
• 39:52
  They'll see them, isn't he? Yeah, he's he's really nasty.
• 39:55
  And This is why I really like this.
• 39:58
  This bit absolutely takes it. There's no easy answer on it
• 40:04
  because there's some there's some actions you ask you, you
• 40:07
  think of the morality of them. You hang on a second, you can
• 40:12
  understand why people go. No, they do want to kill him
• 40:17
  because he's, you know, the way he's wrecked lights, the way
• 40:19
  he's. It also just doesn't.
• 40:23
  Care it is interesting that in the first Sea Devil stroke
• 40:28
  Silurus story, so in doctor in the Silurus, they had a
• 40:31
  deliberate couple of characters, an old man, an old Silurian that
• 40:35
  was a nice guy that wanted to put a piece and a younger one
• 40:39
  who was a hot head and complicated the plot.
• 40:42
  But after that, we never really, I mean, there was that one in
• 40:45
  the Sea Devils, but he he wasn't really trying to broker a piece
• 40:48
  for too long. But it's one major, it's just
• 40:51
  one major sea devil, isn't it? It's just that's the only real
• 40:54
  characterized sea devil. The rest of the kind of grunts,
• 40:57
  it's there's no argument between them.
• 41:00
  That's what made us lose really interesting.
• 41:02
  Yeah, that's about. That's what happens in the
• 41:05
  building you were quite largely. You've got a lot of races have
• 41:08
  different viewpoints. It's not just it's homogeneous
• 41:11
  evil alien invasion points. Whereas here I think you've got
• 41:17
  the sci-fi plot of them trying to turn the world into an ocean,
• 41:22
  you've got the pirate stuff, you've got the time travel.
• 41:25
  Like there's for 45 minutes. There is a lot happening here.
• 41:29
  It's kind of again like that muffet thing of like you can't
• 41:31
  really get bored because every 5 minutes we're off doing
• 41:35
  something else. Yeah, OK.
• 41:37
  All the different locations you change, the time we changed,
• 41:40
  you've been to the village, then there's here, then there's the
• 41:42
  beach then. Yeah.
• 41:44
  Do you think then perhaps the lack of softly, the lack of
• 41:47
  nuance in all of this is the problem for some people?
• 41:51
  Yeah, it's not deepest story, I think.
• 41:54
  Yeah, I'm not sure how well it would.
• 41:57
  It bears up to a lot of rewatching because it's all that
• 42:03
  sea double plot. That's what matters is no put
• 42:07
  no, no deeper resonance to it, really.
• 42:09
  No real. They try and do some character
• 42:13
  bits with Madame Who whose name I forgot is.
• 42:17
  It, Madame Wu, I think, is. It is it Madame Wu or what?
• 42:20
  Madame Ching Ching. Yes.
• 42:26
  But I'm not sure that truly lands, because the episode isn't
• 42:31
  really about that. She's she's almost an incidental
• 42:34
  character, isn't she here? Pretty much, yeah.
• 42:37
  I was wondering if there was if there was like a ton of scenes
• 42:39
  featuring her that we don't get to see.
• 42:42
  Yeah, that that would make a lot of sense.
• 42:45
  Maybe they but they just cut as well to speed the episode up
• 42:49
  because it could have a pace and adventure here.
• 42:51
  I don't know though John, but that flying ship is so cool.
• 42:54
  Isn't it? Look at that.
• 42:56
  See, you're you're sort of being six years old again.
• 42:58
  It's like, yeah, there, there's a lot of that in this episode.
• 43:02
  You've got to jump in on a rope, right?
• 43:04
  Karen Gillan did that in black sport.
• 43:06
  Yeah. Oh, that's what would you do if
• 43:08
  you Yeah, I give me that some work.
• 43:11
  I'm I'm in there. Oh no, don't point out that
• 43:14
  we're in COVID regulation. She went well, where's the crew?
• 43:18
  We've been trying to ignore that fact.
• 43:20
  Yeah. Oh, that's done, yeah.
• 43:25
  So, oh, the Sea Devils are coming now, aren't we?
• 43:27
  This is where we have our fight. And it's weird because I think
• 43:31
  technically it's a great fight. Again, I think it's been edited
• 43:34
  though. Yes.
• 43:36
  Some of the the the geography of the fight, it's a bit confusing
• 43:40
  it's. All over the shop and that I
• 43:41
  think that's kind of a lot of what people objected to is that
• 43:44
  it's it's easy to get lost on the geography.
• 43:47
  There's no real, if you have no space, narrative space between
• 43:50
  the spaces on there, but it's almost like they're all right
• 43:53
  next to each other the way the story goes.
• 43:56
  I mean, at least they do bother to do that though Black Spot
• 43:59
  didn't have a fight in it at all, No.
• 44:01
  And when I think of some of the lame arse sword fights I've seen
• 44:04
  in Doctor Who King's Demons, I mean the Sea Devils itself in
• 44:08
  the prison, I'm like, oh I can't, I'd rather watch.
• 44:11
  This Come on, how can you not love John Purby?
• 44:13
  Stop and eat the sandwich. That is very cool.
• 44:16
  That weird people though where it gets speeded up.
• 44:19
  Do you remember? Just for a couple of seconds,
• 44:22
  it's up there. Very dynamic.
• 44:26
  Oh, she's explaining the plot now.
• 44:27
  There you go. You were stuck in a stone prison
• 44:29
  on lands. Thank you.
• 44:33
  She does a lot of this. But if you do that, I've just
• 44:38
  figured out what you're doing. Your world's doomed, you
• 44:41
  buggered. Who's doing the voice for the
• 44:44
  Cedar? Was it Nick Briggs?
• 44:47
  I think it was wasn't. Sure.
• 44:49
  I have to look that up. One, send the sea devils in.
• 44:55
  We want our sword fight now. I want to see if it says, oh,
• 44:58
  here we go. I know what you're doing.
• 45:00
  You're trying to flip the Earth's geomagnetic poles S to
• 45:03
  north, north to South, longitude to latitude.
• 45:06
  That's why even the stars feel like they're moving.
• 45:08
  Thank you for explaining that from earlier.
• 45:11
  That is a really nice sign though.
• 45:13
  That's why it feels like it starts with.
• 45:14
  I like that you know it. It does kind of sweeten it a
• 45:18
  little. Don't they just have to wait a
• 45:20
  couple of 100 years? We'll all be under the ocean by
• 45:22
  then anyway once all the ice caps melt.
• 45:25
  He's not patient, man. This sea devil, come on.
• 45:27
  He's he's already been hanging around for a couple of 100
• 45:29
  years. I've got no real sense actually
• 45:31
  of how long they live for the Sea Devils.
• 45:34
  No, what? Well, he got chucked.
• 45:35
  He got put inside of the stone statue.
• 45:38
  So. Oh, of course we know they can
• 45:41
  go into hibernation. Yeah.
• 45:43
  Oh, look at them climbing up the ship.
• 45:45
  Come on. Yeah, that's what you want.
• 45:47
  That's a brief shot. The money's right.
• 45:50
  There. Here we go.
• 45:51
  Come on, Jodie, grab a sword. She doesn't grow with the sword.
• 45:56
  This is sort of like this. I would have kept unedited
• 46:00
  because this is what we want. A salt fire on a ship in that
• 46:02
  mist with the Sea Devils. I I did look Jodie on again on
• 46:07
  the special features just going well.
• 46:10
  I'm looking forward to everyone thinking this is me.
• 46:12
  But is it not her? Some of it is, is it?
• 46:16
  It's I think, you know, when she jumps on the rope, that's I
• 46:19
  think she's doing all the sword stuff because I think.
• 46:22
  A lot of TV's like that though, isn't it?
• 46:24
  Like longer shots are? Yeah, it's a.
• 46:28
  Standard thing you get the closer to convince you and then
• 46:32
  you can just get away with the stunt there.
• 46:34
  And there's one thing we're not experiencing with this episode,
• 46:37
  and that is second Akanola's score, which is bang on.
• 46:42
  I'd like Selenac, you know, it, it's it's a, it's a different
• 46:45
  approach to Murray Golds. And I think a lot of people felt
• 46:48
  find that jarring. But it's moods.
• 46:51
  It's all mood. Sometimes with Murray and I love
• 46:55
  his music, but sometimes I really think he's trying to tell
• 46:58
  me what to feel in a totally extreme way.
• 47:01
  So like the end of the star base where it's all girl power and
• 47:05
  all of this and the strings are swelling.
• 47:08
  And I was like, oh, tone it down a bit, you know, where's if
• 47:11
  you've got Akanola on the phone, come on.
• 47:17
  And I think Akanola scores the show more like the classic
• 47:20
  series. More ambient, less bombast.
• 47:25
  That's what he's trying for. And again, chipping.
• 47:27
  When you start going back, it's up, you know, he's, he's taken
• 47:29
  all the elements that 3 characters, he's taken the, you
• 47:32
  know, the historicals, which is set in different countries,
• 47:35
  other histories and he's taken out and he wants to go back to
• 47:38
  that weird kind of sensation which a lot of people wanted
• 47:42
  when Russell first came back. Yeah.
• 47:45
  But I, I think, you know, for a, for a major TV show, which you
• 47:48
  what you needed to convince people of that Murray Gold is
• 47:51
  the right decision at the time. Oh, for sure.
• 47:53
  And I think because we've had the heightened music, the
• 47:56
  heightened emotion, the huge soap operatics, I think when 11
• 48:00
  came, everyone was like, well, what's this?
• 48:02
  Yeah, oh, oh, this one when he actually kills the Sea Devil and
• 48:06
  Doctor, how's it going? This You know that Sea Devil
• 48:10
  couldn't suspend animation for a couple 100 years, took away all
• 48:13
  his life, yet that's a really human moment.
• 48:21
  I like it when she gets angry. I don't think she got angry
• 48:24
  enough, but when she gets dear Darcy when she turns on all of
• 48:28
  them, I love that scene. She can't understand because
• 48:31
  he's a big puppy dog, let's face it, and she can't quite have a
• 48:35
  go at him here. It's just it's, I think, part of
• 48:41
  the same job. There's no time to deal with the
• 48:43
  emotions. No, yeah, you're right.
• 48:46
  And yeah, weirdly, I don't think either The Dalek ever feels
• 48:49
  rushed. I feel like it's really well
• 48:52
  crafted. Oh, it's.
• 48:53
  Great. I I mean the only thing, the
• 48:55
  only Christmas I've got either either that it's that the loops
• 48:58
  we're told the loops getting short.
• 48:59
  I know they're not. They don't feel that way, but
• 49:03
  you don't like because it gets that story right.
• 49:06
  And because Sarah is so funny, I'll just watch her do anything.
• 49:10
  Oh, I should be. And yeah.
• 49:12
  And then, then, Pauline Mcglinn is the mother Glorious.
• 49:17
  The lions will be jammed. No, they won't.
• 49:19
  Mommy, it's so funny. My my wife was laughing because
• 49:24
  she's from Northern Ireland, so she was like, yeah, they are
• 49:27
  like. So good, but then moments of
• 49:31
  genuine terror in that as well. You know what if she's in the
• 49:33
  lift begging the Dalek not to kill her?
• 49:35
  Oh really Great. It's hard to to make a character
• 49:40
  that unlikable because she's a total cow.
• 49:43
  It's so likable, you know? It's a yeah, you, you, she's
• 49:47
  always, it's just like the ACT is going one way and the script
• 49:50
  is going the other and it's and it works.
• 49:52
  It is a This is that kind of friction.
• 49:55
  Do you know, recently I've been watching front of Star Trek
• 49:58
  projects, Star Trek Enterprise, and this is obviously going back
• 50:00
  20 years where CGI was in this sort of mid infancy and they
• 50:05
  just can't do people. They just do silhouettes of
• 50:07
  people and a sort of a Vista, right?
• 50:10
  It's really quite embarrassing. I've just watched that long shot
• 50:12
  the sea devil base with all the little sea devils running
• 50:15
  around. Yeah, they looked great.
• 50:17
  Yeah. Oh.
• 50:19
  Yeah, Oh God, you you'd be good right to Babylon fight scene as
• 50:21
  well, where they they just don't do people.
• 50:25
  It's I love it, but my God, it's if if you're trying, it's just
• 50:30
  like Doctor Who spend it. If you're trying to be pioneers,
• 50:32
  there's going to be a price in the Hunter.
• 50:35
  Which, you know, we talked about that, we talked about that and
• 50:40
  strictly, didn't we, about pioneering special effects.
• 50:42
  Yeah. And absolutely, you got to do
• 50:44
  that. I don't know, Barry, let's just
• 50:46
  harm himself for it. But no, the reason that it is
• 50:50
  push, This is why the doctor, it's when it tries to push it,
• 50:53
  it push those boundaries trying to do something different.
• 50:57
  I mean, I think Flux did that with the CGI because they
• 51:00
  obviously couldn't create as many sets and because they
• 51:03
  couldn't go on to foreign locations.
• 51:04
  So they just did huge CGI vistas and just went for it and I.
• 51:09
  Really like that opening shot where they're just hanging
• 51:11
  upside down. Oh.
• 51:12
  Gorgeous. That's that's a really good
• 51:15
  storytelling decision that as well because you need, it's a
• 51:18
  again, visual meeting. You need to keep the viewer in
• 51:20
  case if you haven't got the characters there.
• 51:23
  Like as well like that script I was telling you about the power
• 51:26
  of the doctor one the code you cannot understand the COVID.
• 51:29
  It lists all the COVID restrictions and the things they
• 51:32
  can and cannot do. The fact that they got this to
• 51:36
  the screen at all is a miracle. Oh God.
• 51:39
  Yeah, yeah. OK, Look, this is this is the
• 51:44
  bit where people have issue with, isn't this scene with the
• 51:46
  Doctor? Yes.
• 51:47
  Where is it? Is it earned?
• 51:51
  Is the key. That's not a criticism the
• 51:54
  episode, it's criticism of that of the year as a whole,
• 51:58
  essentially. What's the what's the issue?
• 52:00
  I'm not even aware of the criticism.
• 52:02
  You've got the way. Yeah, she tells you.
• 52:04
  I think it's in the next she tells you how you know, you're
• 52:07
  the most special person I've ever met or something similar on
• 52:10
  those lines. And they.
• 52:12
  Where's the evidence for that over two years?
• 52:15
  You know why she more special than Rose and Amy, then Clara,
• 52:19
  then Ace, then you know Teagan, all of those companions from the
• 52:23
  past. So the toy maker did not mention
• 52:26
  Yaz, did he, when he did the little puppet show?
• 52:28
  But but. Yaz didn't die, so she got away
• 52:30
  with it. Yes, well, that's all right
• 52:32
  then. But you know, I can tell you.
• 52:36
  Actually, I probably can't explain why she's the most
• 52:39
  special person that the dog's ever met.
• 52:40
  Do you remember that mattress that was on the floor in the
• 52:43
  Halloween apocalypse? Oh yeah.
• 52:45
  Well, I've got a feeling there's some heavy scissoring going on
• 52:47
  in the console room, that's why. No.
• 52:49
  Question the first companion to give the Doctor an orgasm.
• 52:55
  Sorry, this is Hamster. Oh, the row ship is going to
• 52:58
  come for you mate, I'm telling you.
• 53:01
  What's going on? You've had the heroic self
• 53:05
  sacrifice that. Of course.
• 53:07
  Of course, Toby Haley's favorite Trump in Doctor Who.
• 53:12
  I'm sure he's loving this. God bless him, God who's who's
• 53:16
  heroically self sacrificed themselves.
• 53:18
  Oh, it was. It was the The Pirate from 1500
• 53:22
  and. We didn't really care about him.
• 53:25
  Nevermind. Do you remember when Coach
• 53:27
  Sharma did it in Thomas Children?
• 53:31
  I'm an old man. He's been saying throughout the
• 53:32
  whole thing my life is over. Oh, I wonder.
• 53:35
  I wonder who's going to sacrifice himself at the end.
• 53:40
  Oh, Chip Mill. Oh.
• 53:43
  Bless him. So now what?
• 53:44
  She's going to go off with this fabulous crew that she's got?
• 53:46
  Yeah. Yeah, and the treasure.
• 53:48
  Like she's got the treasure. I know how far into this.
• 53:51
  Oh my God, it's the end. Yeah.
• 53:53
  It's coming up. Good job.
• 53:54
  This is blown by it. Goes it moves so fast.
• 54:00
  I didn't even see how the Sea Devils were defeated.
• 54:03
  How did it happen? Oh, but the chief Sea devil Jin
• 54:06
  Jin, who stabbed it? Yeah.
• 54:09
  So yeah. That's it.
• 54:12
  Pretty much. Oh.
• 54:15
  I wonder if Chibil took his eye off the balls right?
• 54:17
  This one, he was so happy with Eva, the Daleks, he went.
• 54:21
  Ella, you write this. I'll just put in the Yas bits,
• 54:24
  it'll be fine. Oh oh, look at that damn Fabi
• 54:28
  duel. What a what a happy man he is.
• 54:33
  All the colours come up again but we're in the day so.
• 54:36
  That's it. It just jars a bit, but I
• 54:38
  suppose it. But it's lifting the mood, isn't
• 54:40
  it? Even I'm shocked at how quickly
• 54:44
  this has ended. Like.
• 54:45
  Yeah, this. I think this is a game where
• 54:47
  people have this kind of feeling that there's been bits edited
• 54:52
  out because it moves that fast. This is a bit, you know, whereas
• 54:55
  if I was on adventures with the doctor and yeah, so I'll pick up
• 54:58
  my phone and be like, John, hello, Are we going on that date
• 55:02
  when I get back? OK, good.
• 55:04
  OK. Yeah, Yeah, of course.
• 55:05
  Of course we would, of course. We are.
• 55:10
  Might only be in McDonald's, but you know, whatever.
• 55:13
  I do like that they remember. I love the fact that actually,
• 55:16
  she comes back. She's in this, isn't she?
• 55:18
  We get a Yeah, there's. A shot of her coming up now.
• 55:20
  Yeah, which is really nice. So don't forget about.
• 55:22
  And then I think when he decides to go in Power of the Doctor,
• 55:25
  just sort of 1/3 into the episode, that's obviously who
• 55:28
  he's going back for, I think. Yeah, there you go.
• 55:31
  Oh, she. Is.
• 55:33
  Your big darf face, Yeah. Oh look, look at it the way the
• 55:36
  what the expression is based. When he says she says that, it's
• 55:39
  like. I actually, I genuinely, I don't
• 55:42
  laugh at me. I, I do think that when he does
• 55:46
  naturalism, whether it's needed in the episode or not, I'm like,
• 55:50
  I'll highlight Ryan his dad in resolution.
• 55:53
  I know it's a long scene. I think it's very well written.
• 55:57
  I think he can do naturalistic drama extremely well.
• 56:01
  Yeah. Oh, that that's your broad
• 56:03
  judge, for instance, exactly what sold that whole the whole
• 56:07
  series. I just, I don't think he punches
• 56:10
  you in the gut like Russell does.
• 56:12
  No, Russell wants the moment. He wants a big clock climax,
• 56:17
  though we've seen yeah, the scissoring etcetera.
• 56:21
  Your. Friend of mine Fraser Gregory,
• 56:23
  he likes the emotional aspects of the chimney wear because it's
• 56:26
  more subtle and he's quite a subtle bloke, so he absolutely
• 56:30
  buys that it is all a bit more muted and less showy.
• 56:35
  Which I can I can understand that.
• 56:38
  It's I don't think you're music diet.
• 56:40
  Yeah. Are you not showy, John?
• 56:42
  Yeah, well, I can be. Oh, here we go.
• 56:50
  This is the the great. I'm sorry.
• 56:52
  It's not you, it's me. Yeah, again.
• 56:56
  And Yaz gets a lovely little comedy line in here as well.
• 57:02
  What did she say? I've forgotten.
• 57:04
  Here you go. It's very.
• 57:06
  Oh. Yeah, he also said it's a
• 57:08
  definition of stupidity. See, I I think as well how this
• 57:13
  is shot doesn't hit the emotional notes.
• 57:17
  No, because it's always that flicking.
• 57:18
  It's it's No2, but there's very few two shots in there which you
• 57:21
  want. It's just a reaction reaction.
• 57:24
  It's sort of the most important scene of the episode as well.
• 57:27
  So I think if Russell or Moffett were in charges, they would be
• 57:30
  like, get this scene right. Yeah, show how they're reacting
• 57:33
  to each other. Not when Jamie Magda Simon
• 57:36
  directs the scenes in the title in The Power of the Doctor.
• 57:39
  I mean, he is such a great director.
• 57:41
  He knows exactly how to get the emotion.
• 57:43
  Yeah, I don't know if this is because, you know, how isn't
• 57:47
  inexperienced direct television, you have no knockers abilities.
• 57:51
  But you you don't necessarily go this is the call that needs to
• 57:55
  be made. You you can see that's the kind
• 57:59
  of shot you need with maybe Julie foreground.
• 58:03
  And interestingly, the scene in Eve of the Dyes where Dan calls
• 58:07
  out Yaz and says, I know how you feel about her.
• 58:10
  And it's beautifully shot. Just reaction shots between the
• 58:13
  two of them. And then the Dalek sneaks into
• 58:15
  the room behind them while they're having this moment.
• 58:18
  And then she's got the tears coming down because she's really
• 58:20
  scared. And that is someone who's never
• 58:22
  directed Doctor Who before. So I get I suppose it's hit or
• 58:25
  miss. Yeah, but I, I think, I don't
• 58:27
  know how we'd even inspected TV before she'd done a couple of
• 58:30
  short films, I think. What this director?
• 58:33
  Yeah. Oh, that's a bad call because I
• 58:38
  I can only imagine what Magnus Stone would have made of this.
• 58:41
  He would have made this thing. You sold, sold the hell out of
• 58:44
  it again. Maybe the emotion needs a bit
• 58:47
  more depth. Oh, here we go.
• 58:49
  Nothing is forever. No regeneration, no life.
• 58:54
  Beware the forces of mass against you.
• 58:57
  And again, speaking darling side man the Master all in one
• 59:01
  episode. I have to ask you because I sort
• 59:04
  of gave my opinion on it and didn't throw it to you.
• 59:07
  How did you find Power of the Doctor?
• 59:10
  It's a complete it's a complete fan Mikey mess.
• 59:14
  But anyway, it shouldn't work, but it's bloody great because it
• 59:18
  is that big fat. It's exactly what you want to
• 59:20
  finish the era. It's it's that it's it's got a
• 59:24
  it's a love letter, isn't it? And the most you know, you get
• 59:27
  ace and the doctor. You get their conversation, you
• 59:30
  get Tegan and the Doctor, even if you're Actric.
• 59:34
  I always that I did laugh at the spite, you know, Peter and
• 59:39
  Janet's trying to sell it. But yeah, again, such the one.
• 59:44
  Yes, I understand, you know, after the work's been done with
• 59:47
  the Master, but it it's a big adventure of Master.
• 59:50
  It's a this is an adventure series version of Doctor, not
• 59:54
  the big deep emotions and that and he's his performance is
• 1:00:00
  fantastic, you know. You remember at the end of
• 1:00:02
  Spike, I was going. It's a master.
• 1:00:04
  It's great when he just kind of turns it on a dime.
• 1:00:07
  Yeah, I I can accept that. You know, it's I like writing my
• 1:00:11
  Doctor. I don't want to see another
• 1:00:13
  retread of Missy. I don't need, you know, to go.
• 1:00:17
  The Master hasn't learned a thing.
• 1:00:19
  Don't know what's going on in between you.
• 1:00:21
  That's where, you know, big finishes for essentially or
• 1:00:24
  Eddie found takers. Oh, yeah.
• 1:00:26
  I thoroughly enjoyed Power Doctor, so you might feel dirty
• 1:00:30
  afterwards. That's great.
• 1:00:32
  You remember what we said at the sort of midpoint this episode?
• 1:00:37
  That's like, perfect for for a young kid, right?
• 1:00:40
  To watch. Yeah.
• 1:00:40
  I feel like Power of the Doctor was written by a six year old.
• 1:00:44
  They've got their exercise book out and they've gone.
• 1:00:46
  Right. Yes.
• 1:00:47
  Daleks, the side men. Yes.
• 1:00:49
  Amazing. Oh, my God, a cyber planet.
• 1:00:51
  That'd be cool. OK.
• 1:00:52
  Oh, wait. What was that fabulous girl with
• 1:00:54
  the bombs and the nights You're not yet whatever in it.
• 1:00:56
  Yeah. There's a whole shopping list of
• 1:00:58
  everything if you've ever wanted to put all in one.
• 1:01:02
  But somehow, and I know there's a quote out there of Jamie Magna
• 1:01:06
  Stone, like he said, from how the hell am I going to do this?
• 1:01:11
  How am I going to? Somehow he manages it?
• 1:01:14
  I, I think he's a big part of absolutely.
• 1:01:17
  And, and of course, even if I'd hate you the rest of the
• 1:01:21
  episode, I'd forgive everything for William Russell.
• 1:01:24
  Oh, it's, it's, it's the same kind of effect, you know, Tom,
• 1:01:28
  at the end of Day of the Doctor has when, you know, I really
• 1:01:30
  think you might. Oh yes, just see.
• 1:01:33
  Him there, it's like, yes. And I do think as well, I think
• 1:01:37
  that is one of the most beautiful regenerations, her
• 1:01:39
  throwing out the energy so positively, you know, not all
• 1:01:43
  this crying and weeping and avocado pears and all that
• 1:01:46
  bullshit. There's no ego to it, is there?
• 1:01:49
  It's no, it's like good luck. I've I've had my time.
• 1:01:53
  It's been great. Well, John, I was delighted to
• 1:01:58
  watch that with you. But we do now have to try and
• 1:02:01
  conjure up our three fabulous things as to why we would
• 1:02:04
  recommend Legend of the Sea Devils to the rest of the world.
• 1:02:09
  So if we do three each, you do one, I'll do one, and we'll
• 1:02:12
  throw it back and forth. All right, off you go.
• 1:02:15
  All right, listen, the visual ambition of it.
• 1:02:19
  Yep. The scale, the imagery that
• 1:02:21
  you're getting on screen, that you're the, you're the flying
• 1:02:24
  ship. The, it's actually the Merka
• 1:02:27
  that's called the Merk because that's what it is, that big
• 1:02:30
  tiredness in the teeth underwater.
• 1:02:32
  It's a series that wants to be big, that's going big, that
• 1:02:36
  wants you. It cares about what you're
• 1:02:39
  watching. So, yeah, the apps, the, the,
• 1:02:44
  everything about this is that has made that storytelling
• 1:02:47
  decision that, you know, if you haven't got the actors, the
• 1:02:50
  numbers, here's a scale, Here's something to watch, here's
• 1:02:54
  something to drag down. Enjoy.
• 1:02:58
  I am going to choose the doctor Yas scenes throughout and not
• 1:03:03
  just the ones that hit and not the the one under the water I
• 1:03:07
  think is absolutely dazzling, beauty played beautifully shot,
• 1:03:11
  visually stunning and I do like the scene at the end.
• 1:03:14
  I don't really like how it's shot, but I, I like that they
• 1:03:18
  actually took the time to bring this thing that he never planned
• 1:03:21
  in the 1st place to some kind of a conclusion because we haven't
• 1:03:26
  really got time to deal with it in power.
• 1:03:28
  Imagine throwing that in as well.
• 1:03:30
  You know, we never did that cover up that conversation on
• 1:03:33
  the beach. Oh, for God's sakes.
• 1:03:34
  All right, let's eat an ice cream on top of the TARDIS and
• 1:03:36
  then we'll go to a beach. Oh.
• 1:03:38
  That's such a lovely show, isn't?
• 1:03:39
  It oh, beautiful. So yeah.
• 1:03:41
  And I just think, as I said, Jodi and Mandip are on fire from
• 1:03:47
  Flux onwards. They're just made for each
• 1:03:49
  other. And for Doctor Who to be
• 1:03:51
  spearheaded by two brilliant female actors, I'm all for.
• 1:03:58
  It I will then go the other side of the task group, John Bishop,
• 1:04:03
  because what he does that is doesn't happen necessarily that
• 1:04:06
  person, he gives that episode heart, he gives it the human
• 1:04:11
  reaction. You might not, you wouldn't give
• 1:04:15
  John Bishop bit necessarily huge dramatic scenes to sell.
• 1:04:18
  You know you, I know he's done dramatic acting and he's been
• 1:04:22
  decent of it, but he he's there for the reaction scenes, for the
• 1:04:27
  comedy, for why would why do you enjoy travelling with the
• 1:04:31
  Doctor? This guy's having the time of
• 1:04:33
  his life. Look at it.
• 1:04:34
  He comes out, he's like, yeah, I, I know.
• 1:04:37
  It's like, what's his name? I'll say it.
• 1:04:41
  Michael Hunt from the farce or Colin Hunt from the Farce show.
• 1:04:45
  OK, it's the the office Joker and it's and he and he just
• 1:04:50
  keeps it that right side of irritating and he always happily
• 1:04:55
  be the Butler joke. You'll give the other person the
• 1:04:57
  the comic beats and he and it keeps the Epsom running around,
• 1:05:01
  gives it that heart, makes it that little bit better than it
• 1:05:05
  needs to be, a bit more entertaining.
• 1:05:08
  Basically, we can just deliver a comedy, or I mean, obviously you
• 1:05:11
  can deliver a copy. Like it's a look, isn't it?
• 1:05:13
  Just a look? He sells it.
• 1:05:15
  Beautiful. And actually, you know, so many
• 1:05:16
  people have complained about him choosing to go in Power of the
• 1:05:19
  Doctor. Like I always say, this is my
• 1:05:22
  common complaint is, you know, all those terrible things that
• 1:05:25
  happened to Sarah Jane in series season 12 and 13, I would be
• 1:05:30
  gone after the first one. I'd say thank you very much.
• 1:05:34
  But that man that held my hand and pushed me off the top of
• 1:05:37
  this rocket, that was enough for me.
• 1:05:40
  Thank you very much. I'm going home.
• 1:05:42
  So finally someone someone said I've had enough.
• 1:05:45
  The guy who insulting me in that bloody air vent when I was
• 1:05:47
  crawling through it. So the fact that, you know, he's
• 1:05:53
  in a situation of extreme peril and then goes, do you know what?
• 1:05:57
  Actually, this is probably a bit too dangerous for me and I've
• 1:06:00
  got something to go back for. Thank you.
• 1:06:01
  I'll wait. But he did actually start the
• 1:06:06
  didn't he start the air? What's the joke?
• 1:06:07
  He started the series with no with no job and the end of the
• 1:06:12
  series with no house. That's his development.
• 1:06:15
  That's it. Bless him.
• 1:06:18
  Maybe you're right. OK, Well, Oh, is it my turn?
• 1:06:20
  Was it? No, that's your turn.
• 1:06:22
  The Sea Devils. I think because for once, we can
• 1:06:25
  actually do the Sea Devils en masse.
• 1:06:27
  We can give them a huge, fabulous place to live
• 1:06:31
  underwater and see all of that. Yeah.
• 1:06:35
  I think the design is great. The CGI enhancements is great.
• 1:06:39
  Everything about the Sea Devils in this I love.
• 1:06:42
  My uncle assaulted me when I was younger and not with his fists
• 1:06:47
  but with words. When he said I was watching the
• 1:06:51
  BBC Two repeats of the Sea Devils and he called them the
• 1:06:54
  monsters where the eyes don't move and I'll whistle what I
• 1:06:56
  heard. Then to this day he still says,
• 1:06:59
  are they still doing the monsters where the eyes don't
• 1:07:01
  move? And now I can say to him, Uncle
• 1:07:04
  Brian, their eyes do fucking move, all right?
• 1:07:10
  For that reason alone, the sets don't.
• 1:07:13
  Wobble on this one mate. That's right.
• 1:07:16
  OK, what I'll go with then is the the way that Jin who that
• 1:07:21
  kills that chief sea devil and it's the humanity that's a moral
• 1:07:26
  questioning there because you know, the doctor does have a go
• 1:07:30
  at it. And, and part of the problem is
• 1:07:33
  here is that Joey's doctor can be a little ineffective when
• 1:07:37
  something morally dubious happens, you know, particularly
• 1:07:39
  something like the end of a rat that's in the UK.
• 1:07:41
  Oh yeah, just go off it. Oh, what a shame we had to
• 1:07:45
  squash all those spiders. Well, let's go.
• 1:07:48
  But you know, this guy, if it's not, if there's any reason you
• 1:07:51
  had to to go, I don't, I don't care.
• 1:07:53
  I I'm just taking my advantage here.
• 1:07:55
  I'm going to kill him. Yeah.
• 1:07:57
  He's put him in suspended animation for 200 years.
• 1:08:00
  He wants to kill his planet. He wants to take everything
• 1:08:03
  over. So yeah, he kills him and it's
• 1:08:08
  understandable. It's a human reaction.
• 1:08:11
  And yeah, the doctors come. This doctor is, I know, I've
• 1:08:17
  heard the comparison. She's always played as almost
• 1:08:20
  autistic at what entire times? That kind of lack of emotional
• 1:08:24
  connection. I don't want you.
• 1:08:25
  I don't want to be general. No, but I kind of see that
• 1:08:28
  reading. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:30
  I mean, I'll probably point it out.
• 1:08:31
  Matt Smith, like you said earlier.
• 1:08:33
  As well. Oh God, yeah, I thoroughly
• 1:08:34
  would. But yeah, it's just that that
• 1:08:36
  moral questionability. Do you go with the character,
• 1:08:39
  don't you? It's a it's a nice little
• 1:08:41
  complexity to an episode that essentially moves so fast they
• 1:08:45
  don't often get to consider that kind of thing of any
• 1:08:49
  consequences of the actions. The trouble with both Matt Smith
• 1:08:52
  and with Jodie Whittaker's versions of the Doctor is they
• 1:08:56
  absolutely have all of those moments that you've talked about
• 1:08:58
  where they're awkward, you know, and they don't know how to play
• 1:09:01
  the emotions. Unfortunately, Then along comes
• 1:09:04
  an episode where they are so eloquent in expressing
• 1:09:08
  themselves emotionally because that's what the script needs
• 1:09:10
  them to do. And you're like, hang on.
• 1:09:12
  So he gets that moment in the end of Incident and the Doctor
• 1:09:15
  when he's talking about mental health and good things and bad
• 1:09:18
  things and he just delivers it beautifully and it hits.
• 1:09:22
  She gets that moment at the end of demons and the Punjab where
• 1:09:25
  she's doing the wedding and the speech that she gives is just an
• 1:09:28
  in public in front of loads of people talking about emotions.
• 1:09:31
  Beautiful. And then they but next week
• 1:09:34
  they're both like oh I'm not really sure how to handle this
• 1:09:37
  if I want. This again.
• 1:09:39
  That's why that make why that scene with Bradley Ross doesn't
• 1:09:43
  land as well as Chip Christian wants it, because you've seen
• 1:09:46
  her do the emotionally literate thing.
• 1:09:49
  Do wonder though, maybe I'm giving it too much credit, but
• 1:09:53
  the consequence of what I'm about to say is there it got
• 1:09:57
  people talking about that. And I think that was the point
• 1:09:59
  of the episode was to get people talking about mental health, how
• 1:10:02
  people react to it, how people ignore it, how people get over
• 1:10:07
  mental health problems and all of that.
• 1:10:09
  And that incensed so many people and also drove a passionate sort
• 1:10:15
  of reaction from people that go, no, actually, that's how I would
• 1:10:17
  behave. Everyone was talking about it.
• 1:10:20
  Yeah, took it. I mean, when I, when I moved
• 1:10:22
  back to Wales and I started in the office and, you know, Oh
• 1:10:25
  yeah, you're a doctor. And one of the guys he talked
• 1:10:28
  about Vincent, the doctrine, you know, those notes as his
• 1:10:30
  favorite story of all. I mean, this guy, he wouldn't
• 1:10:34
  consider himself a fan on our kind level.
• 1:10:36
  You know, he'd never go do a podcast or write bands and ask
• 1:10:39
  or anything. But he's been watching since the
• 1:10:41
  70s. And you know, he said that was
• 1:10:43
  like just the greatest absolute you've ever seen because of the
• 1:10:46
  way it dealt with those real issues.
• 1:10:49
  Who struggles when you deal with real life issues?
• 1:10:52
  And that didn't. No, I, I thought that one was
• 1:10:55
  strictly at that year, actually, interestingly, we all, we all
• 1:10:59
  really liked it, but for different reasons.
• 1:11:00
  And it was because it had four plots and each one of us could
• 1:11:04
  see ourselves in one of those different plots.
• 1:11:06
  We'd all gone through something in one of those plots.
• 1:11:08
  So, and maybe I am giving Chipmel too much credit for
• 1:11:11
  deliberately stirring the pot to get people talking.
• 1:11:15
  I don't know. Russell would do it.
• 1:11:17
  Oh, totally. Wrestle is Wrestle thinks like a
• 1:11:21
  viewer in a lot of ways, and he knows how viewers will react to
• 1:11:25
  things. Stephen Moffitt's reaction to
• 1:11:28
  Doctor Who going on to Disney Plus is to write a script that's
• 1:11:31
  scathing about warfare, religion and capitalism, the three things
• 1:11:35
  the Americans love the most. And well, and if you want to
• 1:11:38
  extend it, that first episode is it goes gays, the American views
• 1:11:42
  of abortion. That second episode, you've got
• 1:11:44
  an American villain defeated by British music.
• 1:11:47
  They're taking potshots at America here all the way.
• 1:11:51
  If it doesn't catch on in America, I might understand why.
• 1:11:55
  Anyway, sorry, back to Legend of the Sea Devils.
• 1:11:58
  My very last thing then is going to be it's a bit surface because
• 1:12:09
  I don't really like I, I've watched this a couple of times,
• 1:12:11
  right? Surface.
• 1:12:12
  It's appropriate for a show that's on the scene.
• 1:12:14
  Thank you, but you had to explain a lot of the plots for
• 1:12:17
  me. So I don't think I really care
• 1:12:18
  too much about the plot of this story.
• 1:12:20
  It looks pretty, but one of the reasons it looks pretty is
• 1:12:23
  because the costumes are gorgeous.
• 1:12:25
  I think the the cinematography, that's all the lighting is, is
• 1:12:30
  really it pops on the screen. And more importantly, I think
• 1:12:33
  the music which we couldn't hear it's he leans into that very
• 1:12:38
  exotic, that sort of Asian music and it's beautiful.
• 1:12:44
  I think he he judges it just about right.
• 1:12:47
  So everything about how this looks I think is what?
• 1:12:52
  So they was saying a close score, which he didn't hear, but
• 1:12:56
  yeah. Yeah, which we didn't.
• 1:13:00
  Well, look, John, thank you. I thought that was before you
• 1:13:05
  agreed to do this. I figured whenever I talked
• 1:13:07
  about the legends and the Sea Devils, it was going to be a bit
• 1:13:09
  of a chore, but actually, that was a total joy.
• 1:13:11
  That's. What it's all about, isn't it?
• 1:13:14
  Talk to people, get the different viewpoints and that's
• 1:13:17
  why I love answer. But why don't you tell everybody
• 1:13:22
  where you and I are going next? Because I'm so excited.
• 1:13:26
  Oh, should we go to 2nd Axe next?
• 1:13:29
  Oh, that's I should have blasted you off there, actually.
• 1:13:32
  And there's a there's a planet. Yeah, I'll pick, shouldn't I?
• 1:13:36
  It's a sound. It's it's only one shot away in
• 1:13:39
  a in the middle of the way. Look, we're we're going to the
• 1:13:42
  circus. Now I'm assuming you because you
• 1:13:45
  picked this, that you are fan of this story.
• 1:13:47
  I'm a big fan of Grish It. I would describe it probably as
• 1:13:51
  if I had to describe it. The story's my favorite.
• 1:13:54
  It would be my favorite story. Of all time.
• 1:13:57
  Of all time. Wow.
• 1:13:59
  Are you a big McCoy fan? Oh, huge McCoy.
• 1:14:02
  I'll get into it there. But there was kind of a drifted
• 1:14:05
  away a little from Doctor Who in the gap between 24 and 25.
• 1:14:08
  And then scene 25 came back to it big style.
• 1:14:13
  And I'd say it's probably again, it's it's my comfort viewing.
• 1:14:16
  It's my happy place with Doctor Who that 25, maybe in this 26,
• 1:14:21
  but it's just like perfect chef's kiss.
• 1:14:24
  And one of the joys of choosing an individual story to talk
• 1:14:28
  about for somebody is this in an era like we did today, where you
• 1:14:31
  can talk about the whole era. I can't wait till I'm pick the
• 1:14:34
  McCoy area with you, then it's. Going to.
• 1:14:37
  Be fun. I do feel as if it's having an
• 1:14:38
  enormous relations in later years.
• 1:14:41
  It is. And the, the thing was in, you
• 1:14:44
  know, when, when I got into Doctor Van, you know, the early
• 1:14:47
  90s and the mid 90s when I first got online, it was heavily
• 1:14:53
  criticized. It was, you know, you had a lot
• 1:14:56
  of we Tom Baker fans of Grump who were telling us that our
• 1:15:00
  Doctor Who is not as good as, you know, your Doctor Who is not
• 1:15:02
  as good as ours was. And you never do that to anyone.
• 1:15:05
  You never go. Your childhood wasn't as good as
• 1:15:08
  mine. Balls to you.
• 1:15:12
  That was a that hit me. It was right for me.
• 1:15:15
  That's what you need. And that's why don't you know,
• 1:15:20
  you might not like an era and you can criticize it, but don't
• 1:15:23
  just hate on it for no good reason that you know, it's fine.
• 1:15:26
  Someone loves it. Every story is someone's first
• 1:15:29
  story. Really is.
• 1:15:31
  In fact, I had Fraser on recently and he did the
• 1:15:34
  Happiness Patrol. That's his favorite story of all
• 1:15:36
  time. I love.
• 1:15:37
  The Happiness Patrol as. Well, it went for four hours,
• 1:15:40
  that recording. It's only three parts long.
• 1:15:43
  Yeah, we have lots, lots to unpick, but we've got four
• 1:15:45
  episodes. Let's see if we can run for
• 1:15:47
  eight hours. Oh, you're on.
• 1:15:49
  Yeah, you started this episode by calling Doctor Who fans a
• 1:15:51
  load of ungrateful cunts, and you've ended it saying balls to
• 1:15:55
  the lot of you. Yeah, like we've come full
• 1:15:58
  circle here. Oh, it's perfect.
• 1:16:00
  Thematically beautiful. John.
• 1:16:03
  We clanned it. It is a true delight to talk to
• 1:16:06
  you. Thank you so much for your time.
• 1:16:08
  Total pleasure.