Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #314 Guest Host Kemba Smith with Joyce Watkins

Transcript

#314 Guest Host Kemba Smith with Joyce Watkins · Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flomm. Since I began recording Wrongful Conviction back
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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of Xonneries, and unfortunately
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Speaker 1: that's just the tip of the criminal injustice iceberg. So
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Speaker 1: I've invited new voices to host the show, including people
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Speaker 1: who have personally experienced the horror of that system. This
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Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.
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Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, Joyce Watkins lived
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Speaker 2: a good life in Nashville, Tennessee.
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Speaker 1: She worked a full.
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Speaker 2: Time job, went to church every Sunday, spent time with
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Speaker 2: her boyfriend, Charlie Dunn, and was preparing to adopt a child.
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Speaker 2: She had a large extended family, including a four year
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Speaker 2: old great niece who lived in Georgia. That summer, the
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Speaker 2: little girl was staying with other family members in Kentucky,
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Speaker 2: but things were not going well. Joyce got a call
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Speaker 2: from her sister, who was watching the child, asking if
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Speaker 2: Joyce could come and pick her up. Busy with her
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Speaker 2: own life, Joyce told their sister she couldn't care for
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Speaker 2: the child. Over the span of a week, Joyce's sister
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Speaker 2: called several more times, each call more frantic than the last. Finally,
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Speaker 2: Joyce agreed to come pick up the little girl and
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Speaker 2: take her back to Nashville. Joyce and Charlie took her home,
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Speaker 2: noticing almost immediately that she was acting strangely and suffering
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Speaker 2: from abnormal vaginal bleeding. At the hospital, it was clear
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Speaker 2: that the little girl didn't only have a vaginal injury,
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Speaker 2: but was bleeding in her brain. She received emergency care
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Speaker 2: and was placed on life support. The next day, the
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Speaker 2: four year old died. In an investigation that relied on
1:45
Speaker 2: an erroneous autopsy report and little else. Both Joyce and
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Speaker 2: Charlie were charged with the sexual abuse and death of
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Speaker 2: the child. They were convicted and sentenced to life in prison.
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Speaker 2: This its wrongful conviction. My name is Kimba Smith. I'm
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Speaker 2: a mother, wife, author, and criminal justice advocate. For me,
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Speaker 2: the work of advocating for prison and sentencing reform is personal.
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Speaker 2: When I was a student in college, I was caught
2:25
Speaker 2: up in a physical, abusive relationship with a drug dealer.
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Speaker 2: He was killed and I was held responsible for his
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Speaker 2: drug crimes. In nineteen ninety four, at the height of
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Speaker 2: the War on Drugs, I was sentenced to twenty four
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Speaker 2: and a half years in prison. When I was just
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Speaker 2: twenty three years old myself. Thankfully I didn't have to
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Speaker 2: serve my full sentence. My case caught the attention of
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Speaker 2: the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and many other organizations, as
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Speaker 2: well as the host of this show, Jason Flom. They
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Speaker 2: fought for me, and I was granted executive clemency by
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Speaker 2: President Clinton. My guest today is a woman who inspires
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Speaker 2: me with not only her story, but her incredible resilience
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Speaker 2: and faith, Miss Joyce Watkins and her attorney, mister Jason Gishner.
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Speaker 3: Okay, my name is Joyce Watkins and I'm seventy four
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Speaker 3: years old, seventy five years old. I live in Franklin County.
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Speaker 3: Thanks are going real well for me now, I don't
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Speaker 3: have any complaints.
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Speaker 4: Hey, I'm Jason Gishner. I'm the senior legal counsel at
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Speaker 4: the Tennessee Innocence Project and our office had the great
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Speaker 4: honor of representing Joyce in court on her case.
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Speaker 2: Well, thank you so very much. And Miss Joyce, you
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Speaker 2: have such a sweet spirit and no one could look
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Speaker 2: at you and anticipate that you have this journey. And
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Speaker 2: I wanted to know more about what your life was
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Speaker 2: like before all of this happened.
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Speaker 3: I worked in a TI factory, I be at car ties,
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Speaker 3: was working doing good, ready to adopt the key, give
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Speaker 3: some kid a nice home to live in, you know,
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Speaker 3: and I basically just work church sports, I love football, travel,
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Speaker 3: I love my family. So I was just a quiet,
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Speaker 3: laid back person.
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Speaker 2: Jason, This is where I would like to transition to you.
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Speaker 2: How does a woman like miss Watkins go from being
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Speaker 2: a law abiding, sentence, church going woman, hardworking to being
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Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison.
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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, Joyce's story is consistent with what we see in
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Speaker 4: a lot of wrongful convictions. You know, this was really
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Speaker 4: a perfect storm of things that went wrong to make
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Speaker 4: this happen. You know, Joyce and Charlie. Charlie Dunn was
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Speaker 4: Joyce's co defendant who was her boyfriend at the time,
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Speaker 4: and the two of them were both arrested in nineteen
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Speaker 4: eighty seven for a rape and murder that they didn't commit,
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Speaker 4: and neither one of them have ever been in trouble
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Speaker 4: for anything in their life. Joyce is in Madison and
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Speaker 4: she starts to get phone calls from a family member
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Speaker 4: that's in Kentucky who's taking care of her great niece,
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Speaker 4: who's a four year old girl and she's asking Joyce,
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Speaker 4: can you come pick the little girl up? Well, Joyce
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Speaker 4: has a full time job. As she told you, she
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Speaker 4: was in the process of adopting a child, but didn't
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Speaker 4: have any children of her own at that point, so
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Speaker 4: she doesn't have daycare. She doesn't have anybody who can
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Speaker 4: watch a child during the day, so she's not able
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Speaker 4: to pick her great niece up. So Joyce says, there's
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Speaker 4: nothing I can do about it. But then there's a
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Speaker 4: week that comes along and the calls start to get
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Speaker 4: more and more frantic, and Joyce realizes that something is wrong,
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Speaker 4: or at least concerning. I should go pick the little
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Speaker 4: girl up and find out what's the situation here. So
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Speaker 4: on a Friday evening, Joyce had gotten out of work
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Speaker 4: that day, she drives out to Kentucky to pick the
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Speaker 4: little girl up. Charlie gets caught up in this whole
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Speaker 4: thing for no other reason than because he didn't want
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Speaker 4: his girlfriend to have to drive in the dark, so
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Speaker 4: he drives along with Joyce to go pick her up
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Speaker 4: in Kentucky. They picked the little girl up, they head
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Speaker 4: back to Nashville, and pretty quickly when they arrive in Nashville,
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Speaker 4: Joyce realizes something is wrong. She notices that the little
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Speaker 4: girl has some vaginal bleeding and she's just not acting right.
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Speaker 4: So Joyce does what anybody would do. At this point,
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Speaker 4: it's the middle of the night. By the time they
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Speaker 4: get back to Nashville, it's after midnight. Joyce calls up
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Speaker 4: the little girl's mom in Georgia. She had been staying
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Speaker 4: with this family member in Kentucky. This was nothing out
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Speaker 4: of the ordinary, sort of something that this family did.
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Speaker 4: You know, nieces and nephews would go stay for periods
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Speaker 4: of time with family members. So Joyce calls up the
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Speaker 4: family member, the child's mother, who is Joyce's niece also
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Speaker 4: because this was her great niece, and says, hey, something's
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Speaker 4: wrong with your daughter. I'm noticing these medical issues. What
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Speaker 4: should I do about it? So mom says, don't do
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Speaker 4: anything about it. I'm going to come to Nashville and
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Speaker 4: we'll get this sorted out. So everybody goes to bed,
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Speaker 4: and then they wake up the next morning and the
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Speaker 4: person hasn't arrived from Georgia yet, and Joyce realizes that
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Speaker 4: the situation has gotten worse. The little girl still bleeding
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Speaker 4: and she's not acting right, something's just off. So Joyce says,
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Speaker 4: I can't wait anymore. I'm going to bring her to
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Speaker 4: get some medical care. So Joyce takes her to the hospital,
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Speaker 4: which is, you know, what you'd want somebody to do
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Speaker 4: in that situation. Unfortunately, by the time they get to
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Speaker 4: the hospital, the situation is deteriorating and the little girl
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Speaker 4: is crashing and they realize that not only does she
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Speaker 4: have a vaginal injury, but she's got a subdural hematoma,
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Speaker 4: she's got a head injury, and her you know, her
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Speaker 4: brain is bleeding, and that becomes the urgent issue that
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Speaker 4: they do everything they can to try and figure out
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Speaker 4: why she has this this hemorrhaging in her brain and
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Speaker 4: if they can do anything about it, and tragically, the
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Speaker 4: little girl dies the next day.
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Speaker 2: Basically, you have this, you know, two month period where
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Speaker 2: Beebee was at a relative's house and then with her
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Speaker 2: and mister Dunn with them for nine hours, and they
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Speaker 2: chose to focus in on those nine hours when there
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Speaker 2: was documentation that there was stuff that had been going
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Speaker 2: on previously as well. So can you give us some
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Speaker 2: more background information to this case.
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Speaker 4: So initially what happens is that everybody is focused on
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Speaker 4: what was going on in Kentucky. This little girl was
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Speaker 4: with Joyce and Charlie for nine hours, and the majority
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Speaker 4: of that time she was sleeping, and part of that
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Speaker 4: time she was driving from Kentucky to Nashville. Nobody really
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Speaker 4: thinks anything strange happened in Nashville. After all, Joyce is
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Speaker 4: the person that brought this child in for medical care
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Speaker 4: and called her mother as soon as she knew something
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Speaker 4: was wrong. So nobody's even looking at these people, you know,
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Speaker 4: they're sort of focusing on what was going on in Kentucky,
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Speaker 4: and there had been some strange circumstances there. There had
9:00
Speaker 4: been an investigation from the Family Services department out there.
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Speaker 4: But then things change after the autopsy is conducted. There's
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Speaker 4: an autopsy that is conducted by the assistant medical examiner
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Speaker 4: in Nashville who tells the prosecutor that I know from
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Speaker 4: looking at the brain slides in this autopsy that the
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Speaker 4: head trauma to this little girl had to have happened
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Speaker 4: within this window of time that she was with Joyce
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Speaker 4: and Charlie. And the reason she says she knows that
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Speaker 4: is because there was a particular type of cell that
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Speaker 4: she was looking for a healing cell which is called
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Speaker 4: a histiocyte, and she says, because I didn't see this
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Speaker 4: cell in the brain slide, that tells me the window
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Speaker 4: of time when this head injury could have happened was
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Speaker 4: when this nine hour window when the little girl was
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Speaker 4: with Joyce and Charlie missus.
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Speaker 2: Joyce, I wanted to ask you because I mean, you know,
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Speaker 2: I'm formally incarcerated and I actually you know, turned my
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Speaker 2: self in, but just this was such a nightmare for you,
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Speaker 2: and to know that you were preparing to adopt the
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Speaker 2: child and to be faced with these accusations. How did
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Speaker 2: you feel when you were actually arrested and going through
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Speaker 2: this process knowing that you were innocent.
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Speaker 3: Well, I got medical attention for her because I thought
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Speaker 3: that was the right thing to do. So when I
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Speaker 3: got accused of that, you know, I knew it wasn't true.
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Speaker 3: So it wasn't a time to start stressing over something
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Speaker 3: that you didn't do. You try to find ways to
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Speaker 3: prove that you didn't do it. You just have to
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Speaker 3: be positive thinking about everything and not just fall apart.
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Speaker 3: So I didn't give up, you know, point fingers of
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Speaker 3: saying anything, lying on people. I just just didn't stress
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Speaker 3: all that, and it was very hard to except.
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Speaker 2: So, Jason, if you don't mind going into initially with troal,
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Speaker 2: what was miss Watkin's defense, what was presented by her attorney.
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Speaker 4: I mean, the defense was essentially, these people didn't do it.
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Speaker 4: You know, they were interviewed, they said they didn't do it,
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Speaker 4: and there was you know, nothing about them or their
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Speaker 4: character that should make anyone believe that they did it,
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Speaker 4: which we're all appropriate things to say. The problem is
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Speaker 4: that the jury was confronted with a medical opinion from
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Speaker 4: an expert on a subject that they don't know anything about,
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Speaker 4: that none of us would know anything about if we weren't,
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Speaker 4: you know, didn't go to medical school ourselves, and nobody
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Speaker 4: told them that that opinion was wrong. The big revelation
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Speaker 4: that doesn't come out until years later is that the
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Speaker 4: type of cell that the medical examiner was looking for
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Speaker 4: in these brain slides is not a cell that ever
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Speaker 4: goes to that part of the brain. That's not a thing.
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Speaker 4: It doesn't ever happen. Trying to date this injury by
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Speaker 4: looking for this cell is an impossibility. And the other
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Speaker 4: thing that the medical examiner failed to take into account,
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Speaker 4: which didn't come out until twenty twenty one when we
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Speaker 4: started having these exoneration hearings, was that the cells that
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Speaker 4: were evident in the vaginal slides were cells called macrophages
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Speaker 4: that showed that this is an injury that had happened
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Speaker 4: in the days prior, well before this child was ever
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Speaker 4: with Joyce or Charlie. So there was no medical evidence
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Speaker 4: whatsoever connecting the head injury to this nine hour window.
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Speaker 4: And there was definitive medical evidence that whatever happened in
12:39
Speaker 4: terms of any type of vaginal injury happened well before
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Speaker 4: the child was with these two people. And you know,
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Speaker 4: if you put yourself in a jurors shoes in that situation,
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Speaker 4: what are you going to do. I have a lot
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Speaker 4: of blame that I throw around in this case, but
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Speaker 4: it's not really at the jury, because I don't know
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Speaker 4: what the jury could have done otherwise, because nobody gave
12:57
Speaker 4: them the information they needed to hear. If they hear
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Speaker 4: from a doctor saying I know these people did it
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Speaker 4: and medically this is why, and that's not contested, then
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Speaker 4: they're stuck. And that's that's effectively what happened. And the
13:10
Speaker 4: other interesting thing that happened during the trial, which you know,
13:14
Speaker 4: Joyce can talk about if you'd like her to. Is
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Speaker 4: that the prosecution tried to offer Joyce a deal in
13:19
Speaker 4: the middle of the trial. You know, they offered her,
13:21
Speaker 4: effectively a one year sentence to flip on Charlie, to
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Speaker 4: say that he raped and murdered this little girl. And
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Speaker 4: Joyce flat out turned them down in the middle of
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Speaker 4: the trial and walked right back in the courtroom and
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Speaker 4: you know, and waited for the jury to give her
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Speaker 4: a life sentence. And Charlie's family never knew that. They
13:40
Speaker 4: learned about that at the exoneration hearing in December of
13:44
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one. So you know, these kids grew up
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Speaker 4: thinking that their dad was a murderer and thinking that
13:51
Speaker 4: he had gotten brought into this thing because he had
13:53
Speaker 4: gone along for a ride with Joyce, and they never
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Speaker 4: knew that. You know, Joyce effectively took a life sentence
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Speaker 4: because she was unwilling to lie on Charlie and say
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Speaker 4: he did something he didn't do.
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Speaker 2: Joyce, So wow, that miss Joyce. That is Can you
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Speaker 2: share more with us about that if you don't mind,
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Speaker 2: I mean, because that is definitely again commendable in this
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Speaker 2: day and age. If you know a young person goes
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Speaker 2: through the system and is bought with that type of
14:25
Speaker 2: opportunity to free themselves. You know, it's in the culture
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Speaker 2: just to you know, take that. But I know you
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Speaker 2: knew your innocence. Can you explain to us that process
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Speaker 2: and what you were thinking.
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Speaker 3: I just didn't feel like I need to lie and
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Speaker 3: send that man to prison for something that I know
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Speaker 3: he didn't do. So you know, when I was off
14:48
Speaker 3: of the year to say that he did it, I'd say, well,
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Speaker 3: I'm not going to do that, and I went back
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Speaker 3: in the courtroom. You know, you don't do things just
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Speaker 3: save yourself, but you're hurt that person and you're hurting
15:01
Speaker 3: their family. So I just thought I did the right
15:05
Speaker 3: thing about not just lying on the man because he
15:08
Speaker 3: hadn't done anything.
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Speaker 2: It's just interesting how the government will create opportunities like that.
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Speaker 2: You know, with my situation, I was pregnant and they
15:21
Speaker 2: fed me information that they wanted me to say and
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Speaker 2: thought that I would say what they wanted to say
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Speaker 2: in order to save myself. And what baffles me with
15:30
Speaker 2: your situation again is you know they were targeting you,
15:35
Speaker 2: then they wanted you to cooperate to flip on mister Dunn,
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Speaker 2: And it just seems evident throughout this that they weren't
15:43
Speaker 2: even interested in finding out and getting justice for the victim.
15:49
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that? As far as whoever
15:53
Speaker 2: the prosecutor was, whoever those parties, they were just wanting
15:57
Speaker 2: to get a conviction by any means necessary, you know,
16:00
Speaker 2: instead of doing their jobs and trying to seek and
16:05
Speaker 2: find justice, using you guys escape ghoasts because they needed
16:10
Speaker 2: an arrest and to block somebody up. How do you
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Speaker 2: feel about that?
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Speaker 3: It was wrong what they did. You don't hate anybody
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Speaker 3: for anything, but you know that what they did was wrong,
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Speaker 3: and there were things that they could have done and
16:24
Speaker 3: should have done to find out the truth. But since
16:28
Speaker 3: they had focused on us, that is all they wanted.
16:31
Speaker 3: They just wanted the conviction to close the case. They
16:35
Speaker 3: didn't care if you did it or not. They didn't
16:37
Speaker 3: care if they had the right person the wrong person.
16:39
Speaker 3: They just wanted a conviction, and that's what they thought
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Speaker 3: they was gonna get. But I just wasn't gonna fall
16:45
Speaker 3: into that trap.
17:00
Speaker 2: As you speak about, you know, the conviction. Once both
17:04
Speaker 2: sides finished speaking and the guilty verdict was handed down,
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Speaker 2: what were your thoughts at that moment.
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Speaker 3: Oh, I was let down. I was heartbroken over it,
17:17
Speaker 3: you know, because I knew I wasn't gonna get a
17:19
Speaker 3: chance to spend much more time with my family. And
17:24
Speaker 3: it just was a hurting situation. But as the years
17:28
Speaker 3: went through, you know, my family tried to get me out,
17:31
Speaker 3: but then my family, my siblings started passing away. So
17:36
Speaker 3: I lost four brothers and a sister, you know, seven
17:40
Speaker 3: or eight aunties and office and stuff. But I didn't
17:43
Speaker 3: give up. I just kept hoping and praying and trusting.
17:47
Speaker 3: But it was a hurting situation. But you know, like
17:50
Speaker 3: I say, I don't flip or get stressed over something
17:53
Speaker 3: because that doesn't help. That doesn't help solve the problem anyway.
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Speaker 2: Your resilience, Miss Joyce, I mean you tap in with
18:03
Speaker 2: the ancestors and all of what our ancestors went through
18:09
Speaker 2: to be where we are today, that resilience just oozes
18:13
Speaker 2: out of you. Because your positivity through all of this
18:17
Speaker 2: is remarkable and I don't see how you have such peace.
18:22
Speaker 2: But if you could, can you tell us about the
18:26
Speaker 2: parole process and when were you eligible for parole? Let
18:31
Speaker 2: me just start there after how much time were you
18:34
Speaker 2: actually eligible to go up for parole what.
18:38
Speaker 3: The law said. I was to do seventeen point five
18:41
Speaker 3: under the old law, but I did the twenty seven years.
18:46
Speaker 3: But I had went up for parole two or three
18:51
Speaker 3: times and they turned me down. So at the Charlie
18:55
Speaker 3: Pass I made parole. The little girl's mother, my nieces
19:01
Speaker 3: and my sister, they came to the parole board and
19:04
Speaker 3: told them she don't know what happened. She needs a
19:06
Speaker 3: lot of goal, you know, she don't know. They don't
19:09
Speaker 3: know what happened, so I might parole. But being on
19:13
Speaker 3: parole wasn't a nice thing to be, not a Tennessee.
19:17
Speaker 4: I'm kem before it's worth. I'm shocked and have always
19:20
Speaker 4: been shocked that they parole Joyce at all. I mean,
19:23
Speaker 4: as you know, most of the time, if you're going
19:27
Speaker 4: to get paroled, you've got to go in there and say, yeah,
19:29
Speaker 4: I did it, I'm sorry, and let me prove to
19:31
Speaker 4: you that I'm sorry. Joyce every time she has ever
19:34
Speaker 4: been asked about this by anybody, said I didn't do this.
19:37
Speaker 4: You've got somebody in prison who's innocent. You know, a
19:40
Speaker 4: lot of times, unfortunately, people who are wrongfully convicted who
19:43
Speaker 4: maintain their innocence don't parole out because they're never going
19:47
Speaker 4: to be in a position where they admitted that they
19:49
Speaker 4: committed a crime and that they're sorry they committed a
19:52
Speaker 4: crime because they didn't commit.
19:53
Speaker 2: A crime, right, And that is an excellent point. And
19:58
Speaker 2: you're right, that is what they expect to say, that
20:01
Speaker 2: you did it and that you thrush your remorse. And
20:03
Speaker 2: so it was meant to be to happen that way.
20:07
Speaker 2: But how did it feel, Joyce walking out of prison?
20:11
Speaker 2: And what were some of the conditions of parole once
20:14
Speaker 2: you were released.
20:16
Speaker 3: I had certain places I could go, such streets I
20:19
Speaker 3: could go on, you know, certain peoples I could talk to.
20:23
Speaker 3: They were come into your house when they got ready
20:26
Speaker 3: tear it up.
20:26
Speaker 2: Whatever hold on, Miss Joyce. You said they would come
20:30
Speaker 2: in your house and tear it up.
20:33
Speaker 3: They would go through everything you had, everything, every piece
20:38
Speaker 3: of everything.
20:39
Speaker 4: Joyce, explain to Kimba. Because you weren't just on parole
20:43
Speaker 4: because of the rape conviction. You were also on the
20:46
Speaker 4: sex offender Registry for life. So that's like parole times
20:51
Speaker 4: one thousand.
20:52
Speaker 3: Sure is. I had certain streets I could go to,
20:56
Speaker 3: certain peoples I could talk to, certain places I could go.
21:01
Speaker 3: I had to be at home six o'clock. I had
21:05
Speaker 3: to get permission to go to church. Such stuff I
21:08
Speaker 3: could have in the house, No Internet, they would check
21:13
Speaker 3: myself phone.
21:14
Speaker 4: Couldn't live within a thousand feet of a school or
21:16
Speaker 4: a daycare facility, not even close.
21:21
Speaker 3: Not even close to a school or daycare. I couldn't
21:25
Speaker 3: pass by during school hours. If kids was walking the
21:30
Speaker 3: streets and I was on the post, I had to
21:32
Speaker 3: go in till they leave.
21:34
Speaker 2: And again it speaks to your your perspective and resilience
21:40
Speaker 2: through it, because I know there are some people that
21:43
Speaker 2: are on sexophreond or registries where that could be quite
21:47
Speaker 2: challenging and depending on you know, who's supervising them, it
21:51
Speaker 2: could be the least little thing and they could be back,
21:55
Speaker 2: you know, in prison. So I appreciate you sharing what
21:59
Speaker 2: that was like. Jason, can you tell the audience how
22:05
Speaker 2: the Innocence Project of Tennessee Nashville became involved in Miss
22:10
Speaker 2: Joyce's case.
22:11
Speaker 4: So most people they either write us letters from prison,
22:15
Speaker 4: or their families reach out to us, or sometimes their
22:17
Speaker 4: former lawyers reach out to us. Joyce paroled in twenty
22:22
Speaker 4: and fifteen, and our organization started in Tennessee in twenty
22:26
Speaker 4: nineteen and Joyce just showed up. We don't get a
22:32
Speaker 4: lot of walkins over at the Tennessee Innocence Project, but
22:36
Speaker 4: Joyce walked in and basically said, all right, I was
22:41
Speaker 4: wrongfully convicted. I'm still on the sex offender registry for
22:45
Speaker 4: a rape that I didn't commit. Y'all need to hear
22:48
Speaker 4: my story, and y'all need to help. And you know
22:52
Speaker 4: you've probably figured out by now that you know Joyce
22:54
Speaker 4: is a force of nature and there was no saying
22:58
Speaker 4: no to Joyce when she did that. So she she
23:02
Speaker 4: came in, she told the story to everybody, and then,
23:05
Speaker 4: you know, Joyce and I eventually started working together. And
23:09
Speaker 4: you know, when I first met with Joyce, there was
23:13
Speaker 4: another person in the office with me who was working here,
23:15
Speaker 4: and she kind of laid it all out and then
23:18
Speaker 4: I kicked that person out and I closed the door.
23:20
Speaker 4: I said, all right, Joyce, like, here's the deal. If
23:24
Speaker 4: we're going to do this, you need to tell me
23:26
Speaker 4: your story, like legit. I need to believe you. I
23:28
Speaker 4: want to know the real deal. And she didn't hesitate.
23:31
Speaker 4: She's like, I did not do this. I am one
23:34
Speaker 4: hundred percent innocent. Y'all need to figure out how you're
23:36
Speaker 4: going to fix it. But I did not do this.
23:39
Speaker 4: And you know, part of me at the time was
23:41
Speaker 4: also like, well, look, I get that maybe you're saying
23:44
Speaker 4: you didn't do it, but what about what about Charlie.
23:46
Speaker 4: Now Charlie's passed away at this point, you know she
23:48
Speaker 4: can she can say whatever she wants about Charlie. Nobody's
23:51
Speaker 4: ever going to know, and it's just me and her
23:53
Speaker 4: sitting in my office. But she is exactly the same
23:57
Speaker 4: in that situation as she is when you interview her
23:59
Speaker 4: in a pot cast or you put her on TV.
24:01
Speaker 4: Charlie did not do this. That man is innocent, and
24:05
Speaker 4: you can't just get me exonerated. You need to exonerate
24:08
Speaker 4: him too, because he doesn't deserve this. His family doesn't
24:11
Speaker 4: deserve this. And you know we're a two for one package.
24:14
Speaker 4: If you're going to take this case, you're taking both
24:16
Speaker 4: of us.
24:17
Speaker 2: Wow, that is yes. I can see her now that
24:21
Speaker 2: I've talked to her more. I can see her coming
24:24
Speaker 2: into your office and saying and doing just those things.
24:27
Speaker 2: And I know you briefly touched it. But what stuck
24:31
Speaker 2: out the most as you were doing this post conviction
24:35
Speaker 2: work that ultimately led to miss Joyce's innocence.
24:38
Speaker 4: So, I mean, at the heart of it, like we
24:40
Speaker 4: talked about before, this is a medical case, right, There
24:43
Speaker 4: are all of these other things in the mix. But
24:46
Speaker 4: we knew that if we were going to get these
24:49
Speaker 4: people exonerated and their names cleared, we were going to
24:51
Speaker 4: have to medically make everybody understand that they didn't commit
24:55
Speaker 4: this crime. So we had these phenomenal experts, so we
25:00
Speaker 4: were able to really establish that the medicine and the
25:04
Speaker 4: science and the case was wrong, and it had always
25:07
Speaker 4: been wrong, and everything we know now, you know, over
25:10
Speaker 4: the last three decades was more evidence that it was wrong.
25:13
Speaker 4: So we had that. The other thing that we had
25:16
Speaker 4: going for us, which was huge in this case, is
25:19
Speaker 4: that there's a conviction review unit that exists within the
25:22
Speaker 4: Nashville Davidson County District Attorney's Office, and they take these
25:27
Speaker 4: cases seriously. You know, they conducted their own independent investigation
25:32
Speaker 4: when we brought them this case, and they went out
25:35
Speaker 4: and talked to their own people and confirmed that Joyce
25:38
Speaker 4: and Charlie were innocent. And after we were able to
25:42
Speaker 4: collaborate on this case with their office, we jointly went
25:46
Speaker 4: back to court together and asked the judge to dismiss
25:50
Speaker 4: these charges and exonerate these people. And Glenn Funk, who's
25:53
Speaker 4: the district attorney in Nashville, was at the court date
25:55
Speaker 4: and stood up in the court room and apologized to
25:58
Speaker 4: Joyce and Charlie's family and told them, you know that
26:01
Speaker 4: they're innocent and this never should have happened. And on
26:04
Speaker 4: behalf of the District Attorney's office, he's sorry what happened
26:07
Speaker 4: to them. And that was big right, because that was
26:12
Speaker 4: really the first time that anybody that had anything to
26:15
Speaker 4: do with the state stood up and acknowledged what happened
26:19
Speaker 4: and told Joyce that they were sorry for what happened.
26:22
Speaker 2: Can you explain when the judge did say that her
26:25
Speaker 2: case was dismissed, what that feeling was like for you,
26:29
Speaker 2: having walk this journey with her, and then miss Joyce,
26:32
Speaker 2: I would like to hear your response as well.
26:34
Speaker 4: It was a lot. I mean, it was a pretty moving,
26:36
Speaker 4: emotional day. And I'm not really an emotional kind of guy,
26:39
Speaker 4: but it was hard to keep it together that day.
26:41
Speaker 4: I mean, Joyce was there, her family was there, Charlie's
26:44
Speaker 4: whole family was there, My whole family was there. The
26:47
Speaker 4: Tennessee Innocence Project was there. I mean it was a
26:50
Speaker 4: packed house and it was I mean heartbreaking how we
26:55
Speaker 4: got there. But that day was a celebration. And that day,
26:57
Speaker 4: I mean, that day was wonderful.
26:59
Speaker 2: Miss Joyce.
27:00
Speaker 3: When I was exonerated, you know, and she said you've
27:04
Speaker 3: been exonerated, I said, thank you Jesus. Was just it
27:10
Speaker 3: was just a happy, happy day. And I said right
27:14
Speaker 3: there and I said, you know, one of my niece,
27:16
Speaker 3: she said, I tell you what you're gonna do. The
27:18
Speaker 3: first thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to the
27:21
Speaker 3: cemetery and visit my mother and my sisters and brothers funerals.
27:26
Speaker 3: So I got a chance to do that. You know,
27:30
Speaker 3: it was a I mean, you just don't know how
27:32
Speaker 3: happy I was.
27:33
Speaker 4: You know.
27:34
Speaker 3: I think that's the happiest I ever been in my life.
27:37
Speaker 3: You know, even if I'd have got a million dollars,
27:40
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be that happy, you know, just because to me,
27:43
Speaker 3: I would have said, well this money. But you know,
27:45
Speaker 3: that was one happy day. And when the charges were dropped, oh,
27:52
Speaker 3: I can't even explain that because I know I didn't
27:56
Speaker 3: have to live under nobody else's rules like the Jersey
27:59
Speaker 3: say you have to answer to anybody. So I just
28:02
Speaker 3: had her aunt toode, you not listen to nobody. You know,
28:05
Speaker 3: my first place I went to was my sister's house.
28:09
Speaker 3: I usually have to call and say, well, I'm going
28:11
Speaker 3: to Nashville. I ain't have to call nobody. I just
28:15
Speaker 3: got my kids and my purse and I told my
28:17
Speaker 3: neighbor next door. She said, mis chourge, where are you going?
28:19
Speaker 3: I said, up, fixed to go to maps, got in
28:21
Speaker 3: the card, left, She said, okay. You know when I
28:24
Speaker 3: came here, she said her, Are you sure?
28:27
Speaker 4: Was happy?
28:27
Speaker 3: I said, I have to answer nobody. It was just
28:32
Speaker 3: just the happy.
28:33
Speaker 1: Thing to do.
28:52
Speaker 2: Just your patience and faith and will to know that
28:57
Speaker 2: things were going to change. And you know, twenty seven
29:02
Speaker 2: years is not you know, twenty seven months. Like you
29:07
Speaker 2: held on to that faith and resilience for twenty seven years,
29:12
Speaker 2: and there's no ill, angry feelings in your heart. And
29:19
Speaker 2: I think that is what is just simply amazing. You
29:23
Speaker 2: want to comment, you.
29:25
Speaker 3: Know, I getting anger. It doesn't help. They're on at
29:31
Speaker 3: least all strokes, heart attacks, dimssion, losing your mind, you know,
29:36
Speaker 3: want to commit suicide. Uh, I'm not angry. I don't
29:41
Speaker 3: have any anger in me. I mean, I've tried to
29:43
Speaker 3: get angry, but it didn't work. So I said, well,
29:47
Speaker 3: I said, well, you know, I just need to stay
29:49
Speaker 3: like I am. I have no anger in me. I
29:53
Speaker 3: don't hate anybody for what happened. I just don't have
29:57
Speaker 3: any anger.
29:58
Speaker 4: I mean, I think Joyce is really the perfect example
30:01
Speaker 4: to be talking about these cases. I mean, one because
30:03
Speaker 4: of all the things you're seeing, right, her grace and
30:06
Speaker 4: her forgiveness and the stuff that sort of shines out
30:08
Speaker 4: from her, but also because she's just so innocent, right,
30:13
Speaker 4: I mean when you dig into her case, I mean,
30:15
Speaker 4: she's just innocent every way you possibly look at this,
30:18
Speaker 4: and it highlights the tragedy of these cases and the
30:24
Speaker 4: reality of these cases that this actually happens to people
30:27
Speaker 4: like Joyce. You know, good people who've never been in trouble,
30:30
Speaker 4: who are doing everything right, who are productive citizens, And
30:34
Speaker 4: if it can happen to Joyce, it can happen to anybody.
30:37
Speaker 4: And the fact that one that it happened to someone
30:41
Speaker 4: like her, and the strength and perseverance that has gotten
30:44
Speaker 4: her through it, and the grace that she's able to
30:47
Speaker 4: talk about it now, it's just so inspiring. Sure to
30:54
Speaker 4: those of us that do this work, but it's enlightening
30:56
Speaker 4: for anybody who gets to hear her story. Which it's
30:59
Speaker 4: why it's so important that she tells her story and
31:02
Speaker 4: that she's gracious enough to continue to tell her story,
31:05
Speaker 4: because unfortunately, there's lots of other choices that are locked
31:09
Speaker 4: up right now for stuff that they didn't do, and
31:12
Speaker 4: it's impossible to navigate these cases on your own from
31:16
Speaker 4: behind bars without help. And unless people recognize that the
31:21
Speaker 4: problem exists and work with the organizations and help the
31:25
Speaker 4: people out there that are trying to work on these cases,
31:28
Speaker 4: other people like Joys don't get represented, and these stories
31:31
Speaker 4: don't get told, and these people don't get their freedom. Ms.
31:33
Speaker 2: Joyce, you know, I wish you nothing but success as
31:37
Speaker 2: you move on, and you know, I pray that your
31:41
Speaker 2: story continues to be uplifted so it can help bring
31:44
Speaker 2: some light to the injustice that happens in our system.
31:48
Speaker 3: I hope it help, and I hope it do some
31:51
Speaker 3: good into justice cinema, and I hope they look at
31:55
Speaker 3: cases a little bit closer than what they're doing so
31:58
Speaker 3: this never happened to someone else. Just because you know,
32:02
Speaker 3: you don't present all the evidence. I just wish they
32:05
Speaker 3: would do the right thing about everything, because they're not
32:08
Speaker 3: accomplished nothing by sending them some people of the prison.
32:11
Speaker 2: What's the final take that you have for our audience
32:14
Speaker 2: today from your experience and what you've shared.
32:19
Speaker 3: To never give up, Never give up. You know there
32:24
Speaker 3: are organizations somebody out there will help you, but you
32:29
Speaker 3: can't give up and expect to achieve your freedom. You
32:33
Speaker 3: just can't give up. You just have to keep going
32:36
Speaker 3: and going until you get to the right person. And
32:40
Speaker 3: that's what I did until I got to the right person.
32:43
Speaker 3: But don't give up. Whatever you do, don't give up.
32:53
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,
32:57
Speaker 2: Kemba Smith. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason
33:01
Speaker 2: Flamm and Kevin Watis. The senior producer for the episode
33:06
Speaker 2: is Jackie Paully, and our producers are Leila Robinson and
33:10
Speaker 2: Jeff Cliburn. Our editor is Roxandra Guidi. The music in
33:15
Speaker 2: this production is three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Routh.
33:20
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
33:24
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
33:28
Speaker 2: wrong Conviction. As well as at Lava for Good on
33:32
Speaker 2: all three platforms. You can find me on Instagram at
33:37
Speaker 2: Kemba Smith and read more about my story in my
33:39
Speaker 2: memoir poster Child. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava
33:44
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.
33:57
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,
34:00
Speaker 1: Laura and I Writer will be back with an absolutely
34:03
Speaker 1: insane false confession story. She's going to speak with Vincent Ellerby,
34:07
Speaker 1: who served almost twenty five years in prison after he
34:10
Speaker 1: was falsely identified in a deadly arson attack on a
34:13
Speaker 1: subway token booth, an event that captivated New York City.
34:17
Speaker 1: Vincent was only recently exonerated, totally innocent, and this emotional
34:22
Speaker 1: interview is the first time he's sharing his story publicly anywhere.
34:27
Speaker 1: Listen next Monday. This is a must listen episode. Listen
34:31
Speaker 1: next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed