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EP241: Lee Rosen - Get Energy From Being Around Other Men · The Sovereign Man Podcast

• 0:00
  (dramatic music)
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: - Did I trust anybody else?
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I was putting on an act in a certain way, right?
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: A front, a mask, I got this.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Asking for help would be something
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: that would break that persona or look.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't wanna appear weak.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Well, on the inside, I probably was.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: - You're a man living in the modern world
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: in a time when men and manhood are not what they once were.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: You live life on your own terms.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: You're self-sufficient.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: You think for yourself and you march to the beat of your own drum.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: When life knocks you down, you get back up because in your gut,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: you know, that's what men do.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: You're a badass and a warrior.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: On the days when you forget, we are here to remind you who you really are.
• 0:50
  Nicky Billou: Welcome to Sovereign Man Podcast, where we aim to make men masculine.
• 0:53
  Nicky Billou: Again, I'm your man, Nikki Balu.
• 0:55
  Nicky Billou: And we have a great guest lined up for you today.
• 0:58
  Nicky Billou: Lee Rosen. Welcome to the show, Rosen.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Lee Rosen Hey, Baloo. Good to see you.
• 1:03
  Nicky Billou: Baloo Good to see you, man. So, Rosen, you and I,
• 1:05
  Nicky Billou: we've known each other a long time. You've been involved in the work of men for years, possibly
• 1:11
  Nicky Billou: even decades would be a better way to put it. And you were actually one of my earliest instructors
• 1:17
  Nicky Billou: in certain programs about how to be a better man, how to elevate my game as a man. Why don't you
• 1:24
  Nicky Billou: start by telling us your backstory of how you got into this work of men and what's made
• 1:31
  Nicky Billou: you decide to stick with it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: - Great.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: So, almost two decades.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: One year short of two decades.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: And at that time, I was mid-40s, typical midlife kind of thing, working like, working really
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: hard in the wrong direction, but not knowing it.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: And the harder I worked, the more difficult my life became, like more difficult it was
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: to manage things and my response to it at the time with the tools that I had was just
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: work harder, work harder, until a point where I reached a limit where it's just not sustainable.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: And my wife, who's an amazing woman, brought that point up.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: This is not working the way it's going.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: And that's the only time I reached out for help where I thought my relationship was going
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: to fail. My priorities being my relationship, my kids, and my job and
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: providing. And my world got really small at that point in time. I was getting
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: illnesses, laryngitis, sick with strep, constantly, almost always on antibiotics
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: because my world became very small and my response to it was do it alone and
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: work harder. And so I started seeing somebody, this somebody did men's
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: work and at one point he invited me to his team meeting and I was like respected this person
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: probably the only person I at the time trusted and I went and he offered me a program which was a
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: sterling moon's weekend and I jumped into that and that's 19 years ago since then just just for
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: the amount of internal stress I had just by doing that and not working harder but paying attention
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: to what's really going on inside me. In the last 19 years, I've only got sick once, where I used
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: to get sick, you know, monthly with strep or laryngitis, again, all using my voice and things
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: like that. So that was the entry door in and once I did that, I realized how the energy I got from
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: giving back to others, you know, and that this, what this has done for me, it's like, there's
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: millions of men in the same situation I was, which was no place to go, with no resources and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: health at risk. You know, I knew at the time I wasn't going to make it into my 50s.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: And that's just the way it was. Just not going to do it. And I'll die giving it my best.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: So I learned new tools. I learned, you know, at that point, I learned that there's other
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: men out there, there's, you could ask for help, didn't have to do it alone. And that changed my
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: world. So I wanted to give back at that time, you know, blue at that time, I wanted to give back and
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: say, "Hey, and everybody should have the option to get this. If you're ready for it or not, that's
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: one thing, but everybody should have the option to, now that there's an alternate path."
• 4:28
  Nicky Billou: Yeah. You said something here, this phrase that you use was "do it alone and work harder."
• 4:36
  Nicky Billou: you believe so many men adopt that as their mantra in life?
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: I know for me, it's—and I don't know, I can't speak for the others, but—and from what I've seen,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: maybe it's like, that was just the way it is. It's like, I have a certain amount of responsibility.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: This is my responsibility, so I'm going to take care of it. And then the other part of that was,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: did I trust anybody else? Like I wasn't, I was putting on an act in a certain way, right?
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Putting up a front, a mask, a face to, I got this. Asking for help would be,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: you know, something that would break that, you know, persona or look. So in order to do that,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I had to really trust somebody. And that group was real small, almost, you know, one or two people.
• 5:30
  Nicky Billou: So most men adopt the mantra, "Do it alone and work harder," because they don't trust anybody else.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is that your words? Or are you thinking, you know, that's...
• 5:43
  Nicky Billou: That's what I'm... that's what I'm drawing from what you're saying.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: You're not the only man who does this, right? This is...
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I'd say it's common, and that was definitely the case for me. Like...
• 5:55
  Nicky Billou: You've worked with a ton of men. Have other men said this to you?
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Um, I don't, you know, I don't recall it as much as them saying it, you know, that was the feeling
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: I got, like, by them, what would occur to me is, as I work with them, they would open up and start
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: trusting, and the world got bigger. I never went back to like, find out the root cause of things
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: in most people, but by trusting others, you're risking more, and being able to handle that risk.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: A lot of times it works out well, sometimes trusting isn't, you know, doesn't always work
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: out well for you, but the idea of trusting is still strength, right? You're able to take risk.
• 6:36
  Nicky Billou: You know, a life without trust is a rough life.
• 6:42
  Nicky Billou: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:44
  Nicky Billou: And why do you think men don't trust people?
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I think there's something inside of us that's a sign of weakness, right? I mean,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: that's the way it was for me. You know, reaching out to others, depending upon others, is a sign
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: of weakness, perhaps. I didn't want to appear weak. Well, on the inside, I probably was,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: right? I didn't. I was faking a lot of it at the time. And then, you know, this type of work had
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: me build myself up from the inside. So it was, you know, the ability to start removing that persona
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: and that mask is what I got a huge amount of value from the work.
• 7:26
  Nicky Billou: - You know, I had a guest on the show a couple years back. His name is Dr. Robert Glover.
• 7:32
  Nicky Billou: You know who he is?
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: - I heard the name. I don't know who he is, though.
• 7:35
  Nicky Billou: - He wrote a very famous book that sold tens of millions of copies called "No More Mr. Nice Guy."
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: - Oh yeah, I've heard the book, sure.
• 7:43
  Nicky Billou: Yeah, and Dr. Glover said to me that most men are craving masculine only spaces and
• 7:54
  Nicky Billou: they don't even know it.
• 7:56
  Nicky Billou: And when he said that, that hit me like a sledgehammer.
• 8:01
  Nicky Billou: Because I go, yeah, that's me.
• 8:03
  Nicky Billou: That's me.
• 8:04
  Nicky Billou: That's freaking me.
• 8:06
  Nicky Billou: I love women.
• 8:07
  Nicky Billou: Women are awesome.
• 8:09
  Nicky Billou: Women are freaking awesome.
• 8:09
  Nicky Billou: I love my woman.
• 8:10
  Nicky Billou: She's super awesome.
• 8:12
  Nicky Billou: But there are times where I don't want to be around women, I want to be around men,
• 8:17
  Nicky Billou: you know.
• 8:18
  Nicky Billou: And there's something I learn from being in a masculine-only space, there's something
• 8:25
  Nicky Billou: I get, a sense of belonging, a sense of community that's not possible in a mixed space.
• 8:31
  Nicky Billou: And when Dr. Glover said that to me, it made me instantly understand why so many men are
• 8:39
  Nicky Billou: are seeking men's group.
• 8:41
  Nicky Billou: So many men are seeking programs
• 8:44
  Nicky Billou: like Sterling Men's Weekend,
• 8:45
  Nicky Billou: which is now itself split into at least three splinters
• 8:48
  Nicky Billou: since Justin Sterling passed away.
• 8:51
  Nicky Billou: But I think the reason I do what I do
• 8:56
  Nicky Billou: is like you, I get energy from teaching men,
• 9:01
  Nicky Billou: from giving to men, from uplifting men,
• 9:03
  Nicky Billou: from seeing men succeed at a higher level.
• 9:06
  Nicky Billou: And I think most men, if they had an opportunity to experience that, wow, they'd want to do
• 9:13
  Nicky Billou: a lot more of that in their own life.
• 9:15
  Nicky Billou: They'd want to give to other men.
• 9:17
  Nicky Billou: They'd want to be a part of community with other men.
• 9:21
  Nicky Billou: They'd get energy from being around other men.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: And for me, Nikki, it was like what Dr. Glover said was really brilliant.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: And I wouldn't have known that beforehand.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Like if even if I would have heard that, "Oh, you're craving what you're really doing is
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: craving environments with other men."
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: And for me, that means, "Oh, I could be freer.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I could be less of my guard, can be up.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I could be more of myself instead of putting on an act and a persona to the whole world."
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't have understood it.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until I was invited by somebody I trusted and inside there was something like,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: and he actually, I wasn't invited initially.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: It was like he talked about his men's team.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: And I was like, inside thought,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: wow, that is really a cool thing to have.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: - That sounds cool, right?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: - Yeah, and then a couple weeks later he said,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: you know we're meeting next week, do you wanna come?
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: And I was like, hell yeah.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: - Hell yeah.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: (dramatic music)
• 10:26
  Nicky Billou: So Rosen, you know, men hear us talk about this
• 10:30
  Nicky Billou: and they go, okay, give me some specifics.
• 10:33
  Nicky Billou: How's your life specifically better?
• 10:35
  Nicky Billou: You know, they say, if you're married,
• 10:38
  Nicky Billou: is your marriage better?
• 10:39
  Nicky Billou: Is your wife having sex with you more often
• 10:41
  Nicky Billou: than she used to before this?
• 10:43
  Nicky Billou: If you're not married,
• 10:43
  Nicky Billou: are you getting better quality women in your life?
• 10:46
  Nicky Billou: You know, if you own a business,
• 10:48
  Nicky Billou: has your business grown?
• 10:49
  Nicky Billou: If you work for somebody, have you been promoted?
• 10:52
  Nicky Billou: You know, are you healthier?
• 10:54
  Nicky Billou: Give me the specific benefits that you've gotten
• 10:57
  Nicky Billou: out of doing this work.
• 10:58
  Nicky Billou: And so I wanna ask you,
• 11:00
  Nicky Billou: what are some specific things you've noticed
• 11:02
  Nicky Billou: that have improved for you as a result of participating
• 11:05
  Nicky Billou: in this type of work.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: - This runs so deep, I'm gonna have to end,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I need just a second to get my thoughts
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: to make it not a long rambling rant.
• 11:15
  Nicky Billou: - It's okay, man, ramble away, brother.
• 11:17
  Nicky Billou: (laughing)
• 11:19
  Nicky Billou: You're not on trial here,
• 11:20
  Nicky Billou: and I'm not looking for you to answer the questions
• 11:22
  Nicky Billou: like you're a lawyer in a courtroom.
• 11:24
  Nicky Billou: Just tell me what's going on.
• 11:25
  Nicky Billou: Tell me what you've gotten out of doing this work,
• 11:27
  Nicky Billou: 'cause I'm gonna tell you what I've gotten
• 11:29
  Nicky Billou: once you're finished telling me what you've got.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. You know, I got my life back. I remember thinking I was so busy. I couldn't
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: go to get a cup of coffee. Right. I didn't have enough time to go to a coffee shop, step
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: out of my car and get it because I was that busy. So, you know, I saw a slogan once that
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: was like a man was wearing a shirt. You're either the hammer or the nail or something
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: like that. And I felt like I was always the nail in life. I was getting beaten by the
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: hammer. And what that meant to me, I just wasn't in control. I was always walking
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: around trying to adjust to or fix a situation. I was at the effect of my
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: circumstances. In a short weekend and then being on a team and then going down
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: that path, I realized that, you know, I was somebody that can handle the
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: circumstances. Like I could alter them. I wasn't the effect of them. So it became,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: And what that led to was lots of opportunities, right?
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: So there was an infrastructure to support a men's team, and then there's a tribe above
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: that and a region above that, and there's roles to play.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: So I dove head on in giving time into that work.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: And probably the crux of this, Nikki, is for me was it seemed the more I gave, the more
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: my life started to work better.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: So it was almost the opposite.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: like a spiritual law, the more I gave to something else, the more my life started to work better.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: My wife saw me working at a higher level and she supported that, even though it meant less
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: time for her.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: So as I started to become a leadership trainer, as I started to put on programs, as I took
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: on more work outside the home and outside of making money, it created an energy, an
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: environment where things started improving all over.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: I was performing higher at work by working less, but working at a higher level.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I was performing, I was showing up at home less time, but when I showed up, I was fully
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: present and fully there.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: And what did that come out to?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: So if you want to come out to like results at the end of this, doing that for 20 years,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: for me, it came out with, I've been married for 30 years, same woman, wonderful relationship.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: we've made multiple moves and exploring life and doing things together.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: At work, I had gotten two and a half times the money I had, and so rewards were coming
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: in.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: And in the men's work, I got opportunities to improve myself.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: And in a certain sense, it was like free training.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: The more responsibility I took on, it was, I got great feedback.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: If I messed up, people noticed it.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I worked with high level people and they would call me out on that and bring that to me.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: In a sense, it was free training and I got to take those tools and apply them at work,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: at leadership at work.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: It felt like when I had work to do at work, it was easier than the men's work because
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I've done so much in the men's work and worked with so many people that worked at a high
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: that the training I got here was applicable to work.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: It was applicable to family situations.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: And not everything was perfect.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of rough stuff,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: but it had me show up with much more depth,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: much more caring, much more love,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: and great experiences, you know?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: We put on conferences,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I got involved with people that I never would have met,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: conferences for men and masculinity
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: for a number of years and podcasts.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: So a lot, you know, it's hard to put it all into one thing,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: but experiences that I was able to take my wife on
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: and she was able to participate and volunteer
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: and we do things together all for good cause.
• 15:40
  Nicky Billou: - Dude, that's all supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
• 15:43
  Nicky Billou: Yeah.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: - Thanks.
• 15:45
  Nicky Billou: - Well, doing this work has made me become a better leader.
• 15:49
  Nicky Billou: I've been able to lead more people effectively.
• 15:53
  Nicky Billou: And it has taught me how to develop other people
• 15:57
  Nicky Billou: into leaders as well, which is powerful skill set.
• 16:01
  Nicky Billou: God, I increased my income tremendously,
• 16:05
  Nicky Billou: multiple, multiple fold.
• 16:06
  Nicky Billou: And my relationship with my ex-wife,
• 16:11
  Nicky Billou: I wasn't able to put that back together.
• 16:14
  Nicky Billou: but I got the best ex-wife relationship anybody I know.
• 16:20
  Nicky Billou: I went on a vacation with her and the kids
• 16:22
  Nicky Billou: and then one with her and the kids and my new woman.
• 16:25
  Nicky Billou: And that's not something that would have been possible
• 16:28
  Nicky Billou: without this type of work.
• 16:30
  Nicky Billou: You know, and it forced me to step up my game
• 16:32
  Nicky Billou: from a health and fitness point of view as well,
• 16:35
  Nicky Billou: which is good.
• 16:36
  Nicky Billou: And there's a thing we say in this work,
• 16:38
  Nicky Billou: how you do anything is how you do everything, right?
• 16:41
  Nicky Billou: And for me, this is an area where I really work on
• 16:45
  Nicky Billou: having my standards be at a nice high level.
• 16:47
  Nicky Billou: And raising my standards in one area
• 16:49
  Nicky Billou: has me raising them in every area.
• 16:51
  Nicky Billou: And I think that's a beautiful thing.
• 16:52
  Nicky Billou: Any man who steps into the work of men will,
• 16:56
  Nicky Billou: if he takes it on for real, will over a period of years
• 17:01
  Nicky Billou: notice that he is a completely better, stronger,
• 17:05
  Nicky Billou: more effective man with better results in his life
• 17:08
  Nicky Billou: than he would otherwise be able to be.
• 17:11
  Nicky Billou: That's what I see the value of the work of that.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: - Yeah, I fully agree.
• 17:16
  Nicky Billou: - Yeah, so you've been leading a lot of workshops
• 17:20
  Nicky Billou: and trainings, talk to me about that.
• 17:23
  Nicky Billou: First of all, why do you do it?
• 17:23
  Nicky Billou: And second of all, why do you think these workshops
• 17:25
  Nicky Billou: and trainings are valuable from then?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: - Why do I do it?
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I kept on taking opportunities that were there.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I was definitely not the type of person,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I had to give presentations at work early on.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: It was horrifying.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I, you know, I look back and it was, I was trying to put up a mask and a persona and
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: portray an image and on the inside didn't have a lot of confidence.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: So it was horrifying.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: For me, when the opportunity came on to be a leadership trainer in the men's work, that
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: was kind of scary.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Like I looked at the people like before me and they were highly skilled, confident presenters.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: So I took it on for two things.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: One I wanted to give back most and secondly I knew I would get skills over time and be
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: much more comfortable with that and over the process be engaged with higher level people,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: people that have done the work for a longer period of time, done the self-development
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: work for a longer period of time.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: So it was a joint thing.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I knew I was going to get something, increase my skills and I had a great love for again
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: And going back to the point where I made that transition from doing it by myself to not
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: knowing that there were even other opportunities like this out there.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't know there were men's teams.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't know there were weekends that you go through a process.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So the other part was just to create opportunities for others.
• 18:57
  Nicky Billou: Yeah.
• 18:57
  Nicky Billou: So why do you think men should do these types of trainings?
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Depends where you're at in your life, if you're ready for it, right?
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that come to circles that are not ready for it. Unfortunately,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: most people that I've seen get ready for it when things are bad enough. And that was my case.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: When things get god awful enough where I need to look for something else, you know, on the inside,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I need help. Right? That's when there's an opportunity and they'll open up. In the most
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: cases there's a good, there's a, and then there's also a strong group of men that are always like,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: "Yeah, I'm in." So if they see it, they're just jumping in. You know, I definitely was not that
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: type of person. So it depends where the person's at. And you know, and what I learned over the
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: years, I think when I first started, like I knew it was great for them and I was aggressive and
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: like, "You need to do this." And I backed far away from that. It's like, "If there's an opportunity
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: for you to do this, then go ahead and do it. Sometimes some men need a little bit more
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: leaning on, but it's a little bit of magic to know when to give them room and when
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: they're—they need just a little bit of push to jump into something that would—that,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you know, could make their life better.
• 20:16
  Nicky Billou: - It's interesting. You know, I've been very effective at enrolling a lot of men into doing
• 20:22
  Nicky Billou: Men's Weekends and into coming into our community.
• 20:26
  Nicky Billou: And people marvel at that sometimes.
• 20:29
  Nicky Billou: And they go, "How do you do it, Baloo?
• 20:30
  Nicky Billou: "How do you get so many men to do their weekend?
• 20:32
  Nicky Billou: "How do you get so many men to do this?
• 20:35
  Nicky Billou: "Like, you must be really pushy, right?"
• 20:38
  Nicky Billou: (laughs)
• 20:39
  Nicky Billou: And I look at them and I go, "Pushy?
• 20:42
  Nicky Billou: "What do you mean by that?
• 20:43
  Nicky Billou: "Well, you know, you push people to do something
• 20:44
  Nicky Billou: "maybe they don't wanna do."
• 20:45
  Nicky Billou: And I go, "No, I don't push anybody
• 20:47
  Nicky Billou: "to do anything they don't wanna do.
• 20:48
  Nicky Billou: "I take a stand.
• 20:50
  Nicky Billou: "And I don't back away from the stand.
• 20:52
  Nicky Billou: But any push anybody feels is the press of life circumstances
• 20:57
  Nicky Billou: that are too horrific for them to face like a man.
• 21:00
  Nicky Billou: That's the only push or pressure they feel.
• 21:02
  Nicky Billou: And men come to me and they go, yeah, but you know, you don't, you don't
• 21:07
  Nicky Billou: care if they say yes or no, I go, I care very much if they say yes or no.
• 21:09
  Nicky Billou: The only thing that I don't put up with is no answer.
• 21:13
  Nicky Billou: When men say yes, that's great.
• 21:15
  Nicky Billou: They do this work, but life will change.
• 21:17
  Nicky Billou: When men say no, that's great.
• 21:19
  Nicky Billou: They made a choice.
• 21:19
  Nicky Billou: They made a decision like a man.
• 21:21
  Nicky Billou: I just don't let him do anything else other than choose yes or no.
• 21:25
  Nicky Billou: And a lot of people have a problem with that.
• 21:28
  Nicky Billou: They freak out at that.
• 21:29
  Nicky Billou: And I'm like, well, that's because you're really not a man and you don't understand
• 21:33
  Nicky Billou: what it is to be a man.
• 21:34
  Nicky Billou: A man should be able to say yes or no to a choice that's put before him with no apology
• 21:42
  Nicky Billou: for the answer, no explanation, just yes or no.
• 21:46
  Nicky Billou: When we invite men to Sovereign Man, we have a Zoom circle every other Thursday evening.
• 21:53
  Nicky Billou: And if you're a guest, whether you've done this work or not, once the main meeting's
• 21:58
  Nicky Billou: over, I ask you as a guest to stick around.
• 22:01
  Nicky Billou: And I'll then say, "I've got two questions for you."
• 22:05
  Nicky Billou: And you'll go, "Shoot, what are they?"
• 22:06
  Nicky Billou: I go, "Question one is, did this resonate with you?"
• 22:10
  Nicky Billou: And if they say, "No, it did not," the next words out of my mouth is, "I really
• 22:15
  Nicky Billou: appreciate you coming here.
• 22:16
  Nicky Billou: thanks for your time, you can go.
• 22:17
  Nicky Billou: And people go, what?
• 22:19
  Nicky Billou: I go, yeah, I honor a man's no.
• 22:22
  Nicky Billou: I honor a man's yes.
• 22:24
  Nicky Billou: The only thing I don't honor is a man's wishy-washy,
• 22:28
  Nicky Billou: pussy, ghost, ghosting fear.
• 22:31
  Nicky Billou: I treat him like he's a man.
• 22:32
  Nicky Billou: I don't treat him like he's a frightened little boy.
• 22:36
  Nicky Billou: And that's why I'm so effective in enrollment.
• 22:39
  Nicky Billou: Because the men that are around me
• 22:42
  Nicky Billou: see that I don't really,
• 22:44
  Nicky Billou: I'm not vested in their yes or no.
• 22:46
  Nicky Billou: I'm vested in their life getting better.
• 22:49
  Nicky Billou: And a whole bunch of men end up trusting me
• 22:51
  Nicky Billou: and doing this because they see that.
• 22:54
  Nicky Billou: Then the reason these fellas don't enroll as many men
• 22:58
  Nicky Billou: is because when they actually do enroll,
• 23:02
  Nicky Billou: they're so vested in getting them to say yes,
• 23:05
  Nicky Billou: they can't deal with it.
• 23:08
  Nicky Billou: So they go, "Okay, I can't do that,
• 23:10
  Nicky Billou: "so I'm not gonna say anything."
• 23:11
  Nicky Billou: Both of those are pretty fucked.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Excuse my language.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like, it's a road for a lot of men, right?
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I think society teaches them to be a certain way, right?
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Not to cause conflict, not to be disruptive.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's a road of learning for a lot.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: So to go away with a hard line of yes or no, that's a great learning.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And even that, it may be attractive too, because I think men like that environment.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: bullshit is it yes or no yes or no yeah so there's great learnings for the number of people that go
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: through it and are being you know step to the line you're are you in or out yeah and honestly that's
• 23:57
  Nicky Billou: why i have enrolled so many men into this work is because once i'm with that man and i'm present
• 24:04
  Nicky Billou: with that man that man gets that i i'm not trying to force him to do anything i'm taking a stand for
• 24:11
  Nicky Billou: for him to have his best life,
• 24:13
  Nicky Billou: if he chooses to go down that road.
• 24:15
  Nicky Billou: But if he chooses to not go down that road,
• 24:19
  Nicky Billou: I'm good with that.
• 24:20
  Nicky Billou: - Yeah.
• 24:20
  Nicky Billou: - I'm good with that.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: - And that's what I know you,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, at the bottom, you care, right?
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: You care and you see something in that man
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: that can be great.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: This is my observation that you blew, right?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: And you, I wouldn't say relentless,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: but you care enough to go there,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: especially when it's uncomfortable for a man to say no.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of men, "I'll think about it."
• 24:47
  Nicky Billou: - No, no, no.
• 24:48
  Nicky Billou: - "Times will go ahead."
• 24:48
  Nicky Billou: - We don't do that.
• 24:49
  Nicky Billou: I'm like, "There ain't no thinking about it, dude."
• 24:51
  Nicky Billou: Yes, it's no.
• 24:52
  Nicky Billou: There ain't no thinking about it.
• 24:54
  Nicky Billou: I tell them, "You've been here, you've experienced this.
• 24:57
  Nicky Billou: "You wanna experience it again or not?
• 24:59
  Nicky Billou: "Be straight with me, bro.
• 25:00
  Nicky Billou: "Don't give me no crap.
• 25:02
  Nicky Billou: "Don't tell me none of that bullshit.
• 25:03
  Nicky Billou: "Be a man and say, 'Yeah, I wanna come back,'
• 25:05
  Nicky Billou: "or say, 'No, I don't.'"
• 25:07
  Nicky Billou: And if he can't make that decision, I take it away from him.
• 25:10
  Nicky Billou: I go, okay, I'm making it a no for you.
• 25:13
  Nicky Billou: Thanks for coming.
• 25:14
  Nicky Billou: And they're freaking out when I do that.
• 25:16
  Nicky Billou: There's dudes who've said, no, no, no, that's not what I meant.
• 25:18
  Nicky Billou: I go, then what did you mean?
• 25:20
  Nicky Billou: (laughs)
• 25:21
  Nicky Billou: - That's great.
• 25:22
  Nicky Billou: - A couple of them go, okay, I guess I'll do it.
• 25:24
  Nicky Billou: I'm like, good.
• 25:26
  Nicky Billou: (laughs)
• 25:26
  Nicky Billou: Don't mess around, right?
• 25:28
  Nicky Billou: And then there's dudes who've said, yes, I'm in.
• 25:31
  Nicky Billou: And then they end up not showing up.
• 25:33
  Nicky Billou: Now that's a way smaller number,
• 25:35
  Nicky Billou: But it also speaks to a weakness in the spirit of that man,
• 25:38
  Nicky Billou: because he doesn't know how to say no
• 25:39
  Nicky Billou: when he wanted to say no, but instead he lied
• 25:41
  Nicky Billou: and he said yes when he meant to say no.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: - Yeah, and we're all a product,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: like, you know, I don't make those people wrong, right?
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: We're all a product of how we were raised
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and we learn survival skills to get through the world.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: And, you know, some of those skills are like,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: they're not good qualities.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: They're not, they may not have integrity to them.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: So all these things are great learning experiences.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: You know, if you do say, if you do say yes,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: and then they ghost you and they never show up again,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: it's like, okay, there's a lot to learn
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: for that person about what they did.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: - There really is.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: There really is.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: - And you and I have different styles
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: and I appreciate your styles.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Like at certain points, you know,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: I like to grow into your style in a certain way.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I had one person who I brought to a meeting
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: and asked him, you know, if he wanted to join.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: And it was, you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: and he drove three hours to get to this meeting.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: And it was, you know, so he was committed.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, I'm 90% in.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I said, okay, well, all right, when will you be 100%?
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I'll let you know.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: So I called him back and he was 95% and then he was 99%.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I said, what is the 1% that you have to make a decision on?
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: And I already knew he was in, so I didn't need to apply.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I knew he was gonna go.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: But for me, it was just curiosity.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: What is the 1%?
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: And he said, "Oh, I'll call you tomorrow and let you know."
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: (laughing)
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: If it's a yes or no, but he wouldn't describe it.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: But you know, that's the way the person was,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: a very cautious person, a very in your head type person.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: And that gave him room to be himself.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: - You're thankful.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: - You know, I appreciate what you're able to do
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: is you close that gap.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: But I think it would have, for that person,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: it would have sent him away.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: He wouldn't.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: - That's fine.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: - Yeah.
• 27:27
  Nicky Billou: - I have no problem with that.
• 27:29
  Nicky Billou: - Yeah.
• 27:29
  Nicky Billou: - None whatsoever.
• 27:30
  Nicky Billou: And if they don't like my style,
• 27:32
  Nicky Billou: I got no problem with them not liking my style.
• 27:34
  Nicky Billou: They don't need to like my style.
• 27:36
  Nicky Billou: It's not about my style.
• 27:37
  Nicky Billou: There's a standard we have.
• 27:38
  Nicky Billou: And our standard is, even from the jump,
• 27:41
  Nicky Billou: we're gonna treat you like a grown ass man
• 27:43
  Nicky Billou: and not like a child.
• 27:45
  Nicky Billou: It's up to you to choose whether you're gonna
• 27:46
  Nicky Billou: accept that standard for yourself or not.
• 27:48
  Nicky Billou: But if you don't, you don't belong here.
• 27:50
  Nicky Billou: You don't belong in this environment.
• 27:52
  Nicky Billou: This is an environment where our standards
• 27:54
  Nicky Billou: are constantly being elevated, not watered down.
• 27:57
  Nicky Billou: And because our standards are constantly being elevated,
• 28:01
  Nicky Billou: men wanna stay.
• 28:02
  Nicky Billou: In the past, we would make so many damn exceptions,
• 28:05
  Nicky Billou: our standards were so watered down.
• 28:07
  Nicky Billou: - Yeah.
• 28:08
  Nicky Billou: - So we'd get a whole bunch of men in,
• 28:10
  Nicky Billou: and we'd get a whole bunch of men out.
• 28:11
  Nicky Billou: And that doesn't work, it's bad.
• 28:13
  Nicky Billou: So, and the truth of the matter is,
• 28:16
  Nicky Billou: our organization, Sovereign Man,
• 28:18
  Nicky Billou: I don't run it by myself.
• 28:19
  Nicky Billou: I have a high council.
• 28:21
  Nicky Billou: There are six men on that council, and I'm one of six.
• 28:24
  Nicky Billou: Now, I get the final say,
• 28:26
  Nicky Billou: But if all the other men on the team, on the high council,
• 28:29
  Nicky Billou: are against something I'm for,
• 28:31
  Nicky Billou: or for something I'm against,
• 28:33
  Nicky Billou: I'm not gonna overrule them just because
• 28:37
  Nicky Billou: I have the final say.
• 28:38
  Nicky Billou: I wanna understand their reasoning.
• 28:41
  Nicky Billou: I really go deep into their reasoning.
• 28:42
  Nicky Billou: I go, well, maybe I'm wrong.
• 28:44
  Nicky Billou: But if I'm not wrong and they're wrong,
• 28:46
  Nicky Billou: I don't have a problem overruling them.
• 28:48
  Nicky Billou: And I've had a couple of them get their shorts
• 28:50
  Nicky Billou: in a knot about it, right?
• 28:52
  Nicky Billou: Couple of them even quit.
• 28:54
  Nicky Billou: And I said, "Look, I appreciate your point of view.
• 28:58
  Nicky Billou: I heard you out, but you need to think of me
• 29:01
  Nicky Billou: as the president and you as the cabinet secretary.
• 29:04
  Nicky Billou: And if you can't accept that,"
• 29:06
  Nicky Billou: and he goes, "Well, you're not the president."
• 29:07
  Nicky Billou: And I go, "Well, actually I am.
• 29:10
  Nicky Billou: Actually I am the president.
• 29:12
  Nicky Billou: You are the cabinet secretary.
• 29:13
  Nicky Billou: You get a big say and you can make arguments
• 29:16
  Nicky Billou: and I'm open to you winning.
• 29:18
  Nicky Billou: I don't need to win all the time,
• 29:19
  Nicky Billou: but if I feel I'm right, I'm gonna overrule you.
• 29:22
  Nicky Billou: I'm not gonna not overrule you
• 29:23
  Nicky Billou: just to spare your tender feelings.
• 29:25
  Nicky Billou: I'm not gonna overrule you just to show you I'm boss either.
• 29:28
  Nicky Billou: I don't wanna be that man,
• 29:31
  Nicky Billou: but I'm not gonna not overrule you because you're upset
• 29:34
  Nicky Billou: or you're gonna be mad or you're gonna leave.
• 29:36
  Nicky Billou: That sort of thing can't exist in a leadership team.
• 29:39
  Nicky Billou: We can't have my ego being out of control,
• 29:42
  Nicky Billou: we can't have the people on the council's ego
• 29:45
  Nicky Billou: being out of control.
• 29:46
  Nicky Billou: The egos need to be in check
• 29:48
  Nicky Billou: in service of the mission we're trying to do.
• 29:50
  Nicky Billou: And right now, besides myself, there are two other very, very senior men on the high council.
• 29:57
  Nicky Billou: And when they speak, I listen.
• 30:00
  Nicky Billou: I'm like, "Okay, these dudes see things in a way I don't, so I'm gonna shut the fuck
• 30:05
  Nicky Billou: up and I'm gonna listen to what they have to say."
• 30:07
  Nicky Billou: And 95 times out of 100, I'll go along with what they have to say.
• 30:13
  Nicky Billou: Well, then there's the five times where I won't.
• 30:18
  Nicky Billou: Because they too have their foibles, just like I have mine.
• 30:21
  Nicky Billou: I got to watch my foibles.
• 30:23
  Nicky Billou: I know that it's easy for me to lose my cool.
• 30:27
  Nicky Billou: And that's what I've been working on, not losing my cool quite as easily.
• 30:32
  Nicky Billou: And I've made a lot of progress in the last little while.
• 30:34
  Nicky Billou: But there are times where I'm in the meeting and I shut up and I say nothing because there's
• 30:40
  Nicky Billou: a matter being dealt with that I'm likely going to lose my cool over.
• 30:45
  Nicky Billou: And if one of these other men handles it, and I'm just watching and biting my tongue,
• 30:50
  Nicky Billou: it'll be handled in a better way.
• 30:52
  Nicky Billou: And that's important.
• 30:54
  Nicky Billou: That's important.
• 30:54
  Nicky Billou: That's why having a high council, having a leadership team is important.
• 30:59
  Nicky Billou: Building this organization with Baloo and nobody else would be a disaster, would be
• 31:04
  Nicky Billou: an utter total disaster.
• 31:07
  Nicky Billou: But I believe with the High Council we currently have, we're at around 24 men right now.
• 31:15
  Nicky Billou: I'm very confident we'll get to 100.
• 31:18
  Nicky Billou: That's great.
• 31:18
  Nicky Billou: The current structure we have.
• 31:20
  Nicky Billou: Very confident.
• 31:21
  Nicky Billou: I don't know how long it'll take, but I'm confident we've got the chops and the goods
• 31:25
  Nicky Billou: to get to 100 men.
• 31:27
  Nicky Billou: Now, once we're at 100 men, I think we're gonna need a different makeup of the High
• 31:33
  Nicky Billou: Council to get us to, say, a thousand men, to get us to 150 men even. And my vision is I'd like to
• 31:41
  Nicky Billou: see us at 10,000 men. I'd like to see us at 10,000 men. And I'd like to be the one in charge of those
• 31:46
  Nicky Billou: 10,000 men, but there's no way I can do it all myself. We've got to be able to break things down
• 31:52
  Nicky Billou: to the point where people can do things. And once we're at 100 men, I'm thinking,
• 31:59
  Nicky Billou: we're going to start doing events for these men, you know, that we can attend, right? Like regular
• 32:04
  Nicky Billou: events. Once we're at a thousand men, we're going to do an annual freaking retreat, a men's retreat
• 32:09
  Nicky Billou: somewhere, you know? And God, I'm just excited about that. And I'm excited about the fact that
• 32:14
  Nicky Billou: there's good men that are willing to give their time to help me grow this thing.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Beautiful. And you know, point to what you mentioned earlier. It's like
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: keeping the standards high and making it tough is real attractive. When standards low, as you said
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: this earlier, when standards get lower, it makes it less attractive and you start accommodating
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: others. And a lot of people aren't drawn to invest their time into that type of environment.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: You can get that pretty much anywhere with the guys on your street or your bowling team or
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: whatever, you could get that type of environment anywhere. So I'm sure with that attitude of
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: keeping standards high, making it a good, strong environment, it'll draw that number.
• 33:04
  Nicky Billou: - Well, I appreciate it. Mr. Rosen, it's a real honor to have one of my early instructors
• 33:11
  Nicky Billou: in this work come and share his wisdom with me. I just want to thank you for taking the time to
• 33:16
  Nicky Billou: Come here and be here with us today and share your genius.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, man. It's good seeing you and I'm really good to hear all the good work
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: you're doing. It's like you're, you changed his lives, which you've been doing since I've known
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: you, which is probably getting close to 15 years. It is. It's good. Amazing. A lot of lives you've
• 33:37
  Nicky Billou: been changing. Good work, man. Thank you. God bless you, sir. Have a great day. Take care, brother.
• 33:41
  Nicky Billou: Bye-bye.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Sovereign Man Podcast.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: If you're ready to take charge of your life and become the man you've always wanted to be,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: we invite you to join the movement at sovereignman.ca.