Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Inside the New Social Media Ban for Aussie Kids [with Julie Inman Grant]

Transcript

Inside the New Social Media Ban for Aussie Kids [with Julie Inman Grant] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Gooday, Welcome to the Happy Families podcast Something Different today
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: as we kick off your new week coming up in
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the next sort of six weeks or thereabouts December tenth,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: we see a massive change in Australia with minimum age
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: legislation for social media coming in. All children sixteen and
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: below will no longer have access to accounts or to
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: be algorithmically followed online by the major technology companies. Today,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: my very special guest on the podcast is the person
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: in charge of regulating, developing, and essentially rolling all of
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: this out. She is the nationwide federal government appointed e
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Safety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grand Julia has been on the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: podcast a number of times and she consistently provides us
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: with the very best information about what's happening to keep
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: our kids safe. Today. We have a much longer conversation
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: than normal on the pod because there is so much
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: to cover and it matters so much, everything from who's
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: included in the band, what parents are supposed to know
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: about it, how fines are going to be enacted, what
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: to do about explicit content online, whether that's covered or not,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: and what the government's doing about that, and even those
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: neudifying apps where we're seeing on a weekly basis schools
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: finding kids using them and causing harm. We're going to
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: cover all of that and more. This is a conversation
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you don't want to miss. It's coming up right after this. Holo,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I'm welcome to the Happy Family's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: every single day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, which
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: is over a month month and a half away from
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: the arrival of the brand new legislation, world first legislation.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of countries who are kind of
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: jealous about what's going on in Australia when it comes
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: to social media. Minimum age legislation limits on kids under
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the age of sixteen being able to access the social
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: media platforms because of the risks associated with it. And
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: there is nobody better to talk to about this than
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: the person who is in charge of regulating it all,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: the Safety Commissioner of AUS Australia, who is a regular
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: conversationalist on the Happy Families podcast. What a privilege to
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: have you back, Julie Immigrant, Thank you for your time today.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: The privilege is online justin I can't.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Even imagine how busy you heard the moment I well, actually,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I do have some sense of how busy you are,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: because when I was speaking with Amy or assistant, it
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: took us a long time to lock this time in.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: So let's get started straight away. You're in charge of
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the upcoming social media and inter major legislation. It starts
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: on December ten. There is still, unfortunately, probably more than
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: is necessary, a lot of confusion out there. Can you
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: step it out in really simple terms? What does it
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: mean for parents and teenagers?
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Ease Safety, being the first online safety regulator in the world,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: were used to writing the playbook as we go along,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and this was probably, I can definitively say, the most novel,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: complex piece of legislation that I've ever ever seen, and
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: so it's taken a lot of mental gymnastics to actually
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: figure out how this will work in practice. But I
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: guess what parents really need to know is that the
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: whole idea is to take the pressure away from parents
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: and kids themselves and the onus of responsibility on keeping
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: them off social media until the age of sixteen. That
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: falls squarely on the platforms. As you would understand, justin
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: these companies have, particularly the larger ones, and where the
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: vast majority of young people are spending their time, They've
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: got vast resources, the best minds, they're using advanced AA
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: eye tools, and the vast majority of them do use
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: age inference tools today. The government also completed in August
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: age Assurance Technical Trial where about fifty different age verification
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: technologies were tested for accuracy, robustness, whether or not they
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: what kind of bias, or whether they captured the broader
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: ethnicities across Australia and whether they were privacy preserving, and
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: about ten of those scored the top technical readiness rating
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: or just below. So this gives all these major companies
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: additional technologies to use. So the way that it will
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: work is we're going through something called the assessment and
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: self assessment process. But I think you can be reasonably
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: comfortable that the major platforms that the Prime Minister mentioned
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: and that kids are using today, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: snapchat and acts are likely to be covered. At this time,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: we're still engaging in some conversations around procedural do fairness.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Later this week will announce a number of organizations that
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: probably will not be in the ban. There are two exemptions.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: One is for messaging sites and the other is for
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: online gaming platforms. But as you would understand, there really
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: is no right defining line about a lot of messaging services,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: for instance, have social media functionality and online gaming if
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: you're thinking about Orldblocks or Fortnite for instance, lots of
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: social media, chatting and interactive features. So are they primarily
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: is their primary or so purpose as an online gaming
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: platform or social media platform. These are the processes we're
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: going through now. But either way, we have a range
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: of information coming out this week for parents and young
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: people themselves. We consulted with about one hundred and sixty
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: different organization, including with young people specifically and with parents
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: so that we could tailor these materials for what they want.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: So everything from what are conversation starters, Whether are the
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: checklists you need to go go through with your kid,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: for instance, how do you start having the conversation about
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: what platforms they are on today and get them to
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: start weaning themselves off social media? This is going to
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: be a monumental event for a lot of young people.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: How do you download the ur lis and their pictures?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: How do you make sure that they're still connecting with
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: their friend group? Particularly in December, one school is breaking
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: out at school holidays, we'll explain how to set up
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: sort of a group messaging chat. For instance, if there
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: are influencers you approve of that your kid might like
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: to follow, then you know, look for their website and
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: bookmarket now. And then we've been privileged to work with
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: groups like Beyond Blue, Headspace reach Out and Kids Helpline
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: to make sure that all the mental health resources and
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the help that kids need are readily available in our
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: resources and the language is kind, caring and compassionate.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Julie, there are so many moving parts here. I want
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: to go back to the platforms themselves for just a moment,
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: as much as there are so many resources that are
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: on the cusp of arriving, and certainly over the next
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: month or so, we'll continue to land to godparents through this.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: The most common question that I get when parents are
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: asking me about it, other than do I or do
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: I not favor the changes, and let's be clear I
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: really do, is what apps are included? So you've highlighted
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and the Prime Minister has mentioned as well, the major
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: tech companies. But I'm just I'm thinking, and I don't
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: want to get into the weeds too much here, but
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about things like discord. Discord is a messaging app, right,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: but it's very much about social media, and we know
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: that there's a lot of really really damaging stuff that
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: happens there. And then I'm thinking about how recently some
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: filings that Facebook made in the United States, they argued
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: that they are not a social media company. Now they're
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a I mean, they're a short form TV company, and
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: they're saying that they're not a social media company because
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: people are sharing content with strangers, and people are consuming
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: content from strangers, and it's usually all short form video.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: There's only about ten to twenty percent of the interactions
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: that happen on Facebook now that are technically social media interactions.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: The rest of it's shortfam you mean Facebook or YouTube Facebook.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I read something about Facebook doing that just recently. And
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: so when we've got these organizations, who are I guess
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it's a constantly moving target.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: These lists will be dynamic, and you've just encapsulated what
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: the challenge has been for me and my team. I
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: don't have specific declaratory powers in this legislation to say
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: who's in and who's out. I have to work with
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: the rules that were tabled and they're very broad rules. So,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned, the primary test that we're using now
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: is what is your soul or primary purpose? Is your
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: solar primary purpose? Social media? Well, of course we're seeing
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of shape shifting. So YouTube's been saying oh no,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: even though they designate themselves as a social media site.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: For our codes, we're a video sharing platform, and pinterest
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: is a visual search engine, and snap is a camera app.
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  Speaker 2: It's really messaging. So I mean what we're having to
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: go through and do is do our own testing, but
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: look at features and functionality and then try and apply
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: these tests where there isn't a clear line and we
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: know that things are going to be dynamic and change.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: So to give you an example, I was at OpenAI
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: headquarters last week talking to them about a range of
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: things because we've got some provisions in our codes around
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: AI companions and chatbots and preventing kids from accessing born
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: and explicit violence and suicidal ideation content and the like.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't mention once that the following week they were
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: going to be introducing an AI generated social media app
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  Speaker 2: called Sora. Well, so here you go, and now you've
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: got the melding of social media and AI generated deep
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: fake videos. So I've written to them and I've sent
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: them the assessment tool. Things are going to be dynamic
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: and are going to change all the time. Let's say
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: you're looking at roadblocks. I think most people would agree
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: that online gaming is probably its primary purpose. US. There
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: is that chat functionality they've just released in the US,
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: a future called Moments, which is like stories. So features
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: and functionalities are changing all the time. This is always
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: going to be dynamic. We want to give parents the
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: most clarity that we can, but I do want to
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: say this justin One of the normative changes that this
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: legislation is meant to give parents is to be able
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: to say this has a meaning you'll never be on
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: social media, or you'll never have a smartphone, just not yet,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: not until you're ready. And the government is saying that
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: if you're under sixteen, you're not ready. So and you
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: don't have to worry about the POMO because your friends
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: aren't going to be beyond this either. So parents do
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: have agency. Let's just say we decide roadblocks meets the
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: gaming exsumption. You have agency as a parent to say
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: you're not going to be on Facebook or TikTok, but
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not comfortable with you being on roadblocks either.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Julie, even as I listen to what you're saying here, Gentwangy,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: who I'm sure that you would be very familiar with.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: She's got her new book out. I'm actually speaking with
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: her on Wednesday about her new book, and one of
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: her rules is you are the parent like you are
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: in control. And she's so behind this change as well
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: because it allows parents to feel like they can step
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: into that role and say, well, the government has said no,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: and my job as a parent is to help you
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: to stick with what the laws are. In the same
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: way that I'm not going to let my twelve year
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: old driver car or go into a pub, or go
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: into a casino or any of those things. They're now
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: not going to be able to do these things, And
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: it just it feels reassuring, it feels validating, It feels
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: so much safer for parents and for families. Just listening
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: to your talk, though, it sounds like you have such
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: an exhausting role to play. After the break, I want
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: to ask you, Julie, how enforcement is going to work.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking nearly fifty million dollars for each breach,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: and this is something that a lot of parents are
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: trying to work out. Well, hang on, I'm not going
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: to get in trouble, so the onus is off me.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: But my kids are definitely going to try to be sneaky.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: They're upset about this. So that's coming up, plus a
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: conversation about what the government, what the E Safety Commissioner
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is doing around ornographic age gating, and a discussion about
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: neudifying apps which are a concern in so many schools.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Right now, stay with us, it's the Happy Family's podcast,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions, every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: My name's doctor Justin Coulson. The E Safety Commissioner, Julie
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Inman Grant is joining me now, Julie. As the minimum
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: age legislation date arrivedal gets closer December tenth, something that
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of people are talking about is there's a
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: forty nine point five million dollar fine for social media
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: companies who allow under sixteen's onto the platform for each breach.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: My question is who's policing it and how well?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: That is my job as the regulator, and I've developed
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: a compliance and enforcement strategy but let me tell you
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: the five things, because not everybody's going to be reading
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the regulatory guidance, although it is available on our social
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: media Minimum Age hub at eSafety dot gov dot au.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: First of all, we're asking companies to focus on using
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: age assurance technologies and what we call a waterfall approach
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: or a layered safety approach, So it's not just going
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: to be one way of testing age, and it can't
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: and while they can ask for ID, it can't be
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: the sole thing, the sole determinant of age because a
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: lot of people aren't comfortable giving up their ID. So
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: they are going to have to tell us before December tenth,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: how many people, how many under sixteens they have on
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: our platforms. We've already used our transparency powers in February
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: of this year to get a nominal number. I've been
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: pushing the companies because I think that the number of
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: kids that are on their platforms are higher. So there's
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: two point five million eight to fifteen year olds, and
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: eighty four percent of young people told us last September
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: that they had at least one social media account. Very
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: few of them had ever been banned for age related violations.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: And in ninety percent of cases, their parents helped them
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: set up the account.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: So again I'm sitting my head like, seriously, your parents,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: just what are you doing these?
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Well, again it's the fear of their kids being excluded,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: so that should take away that. So we've asked them
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: to tell us the number, and then on December tenth,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: we're going to be tracking how many deactivations or removals
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: of under sixteen accounts they take. We know this is
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: not going to be perfect and not every company is
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: going to do it the same way or with the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: same level of accuracy, so we're also asking them as
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: the second second phase is to make sure that there
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: is a discoverable, easy to use, and responsive user empower
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: reporting so that parents are educators can can report to
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: the platforms they if there's an under sixteen that's still
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: on there. The third the third requirement is that they
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: have an appeals process that is fair, so if they overblock,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: people can also say I would like to prove to
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: you that I am sixteen or over and reinstate my account.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: The fourth thing we're asking them to do is to
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: make sure that they're avoiding circumvention, whether location based circumvention
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: through VPNs or through age based circumvention like spoofing AI
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: estimation systems, and we go into a lot of specific
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: technical detail about what we know they can do and
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: they should be doing, and that the last part really
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: is about measuring the efficacy of the tools that they're
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: using and making sure that they're being transparent with the
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: data so that we can measure success. Now, these hefty
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: fines are only for systemic failures, So if a couple
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: of we expect that you know a few of these
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: will fall through the cracks. But if we have an
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: indication that these companies don't appear to be applying effective
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: age assurance solutions, that's when we'll take take action, will
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: be issuing some information notices, will be reassessing in June
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: because things will change. We may be looking at a certification,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: there will be technical standards that will be being developed.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: But I'll say one thing justin that this has helped
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: with and I was just in the US meeting with
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: a number of these companies. Age assurance is happening. It's
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: happening everywhere, and companies understand that this is where they
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: need to go. So that the train has left the station.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: So companies can try and ignore it or avoid doing
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: it for a long time, but the UK is asking
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: for it, Ireland's asking for it. The European Union of
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: twenty seven member states also is going to require this.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: This is where the world needs to go.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: I kind of feel like throwing my hands in the
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: air and having a little party on my own here.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: This is I mean, it's wonderful to hear that we're
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: starting this off, and obviously the world will become well,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I think the world will become a better place for
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: our young people as a result. A quick comment on
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: number four of those five points that you highlighted in
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: terms of that cascading approach to age verification, the fourth
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: one you highlighted was location based and AI check ins.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: So my fifteen year old daughter has been extremely clear
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: that while she doesn't like it, she's happy to comply
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: with it, but none of her friends are going to
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: They're all researching VPNs, they're all talking about different ways
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: that they can get around this, or they're just saying,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: my parents are going to set up another account in
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: their name that I can use and I'm just going
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: to pretend to be them. What I'm hearing you say
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: in relation to that is that number one, the company,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the social media companies are going to have to be
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: mindful of what's going on from a VPN point of view.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: For people who are not familiar, VPN is basically a
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: virtual private network, which means that you can circumvent any
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: location based elements of your online activity, and also your
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: AI component is that, like AI can see what people
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: are saying, what they're following, what they're liking, what they're sharing,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: and make some fairly well educated guesses as to the
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: age of the person who's using that platform. Is that
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: what you mean with that.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Specific Yeah, I mean a number of companies have been
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: using inference technologies for some times, so there are different
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: behavioral signals or even using natural language processing, you know
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: the way that grammar is used, or acronyms or emojis.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Thirteen year olds generally speak to other thirteen year olds.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: If they can see you're logging in between before school
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: and after school, there are a whole range of signals
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that they're already picking up, and then they'll be using
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: facial age estimation to keep improving their classifiers. But that's
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: why I put a lot of technical information in the
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: regulatory guidance that basically says, most of these platforms are
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: picking up device ideas, you know, IP ranges and addresses.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: They can tell if it's been downloaded from the Australian
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: App Store, so they can see very clearly when through
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: the IP range when a VPN appears to be being used,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: and that will just that will need to trigger another
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: age estimation check, so it won't be as easy as
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: young people think. I love it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, our time is up. I want
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: to do a quick summary and then I've got two
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: more questions around explicit content, because I mean, this is
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: one of the most consistent and overwhelmingly horrible questions that
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: come up around explicit content. So here's my quick summary
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: of what you've described. Over the next month or thereabouts,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the social media companies are going to have to be
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: demonstrating to you what their primary purpose is and a
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: list of who's included and who's not included will be
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: finalized in time for December ten. Children under the age
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of sixteen will be limited from creating accounts and being
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: algorithmically followed. They will be able to access whatever content
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: is publicly available just via the websites of those platforms,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: and in terms of enforcement, parents no longer have to
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: stress about it because the platforms are responsible for doing
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: the work at a systematic level, and if they're found
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: to have systematic breaches, they're going to be hit for
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: forty nine and a half million dollars because they're just
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: not doing it right. And you've got that wonderful five
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: step cascading approach to different age verification systems. Is there
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: anything that I've missed that is just vitally important for
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: parents to understand or is that a pretty good snapshot
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: of where we are right now.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's a perfect encapsulation, but I would just
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: have a couple of caveats. And this is related to
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: your next question. Is just because a platform is exempted
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: they're a messaging platform, an online gaming platform, that doesn't
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: mean as parents that we stop being vigilant and set
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and forget. It doesn't mean these platforms are necessarily safer
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: this These are just exemptions that we're written into the legislation.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: I've heard some people over sell that this is going
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to stop cyberbullying or image based abuse. You know, these
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: are actually fundamentally human behaviors that play out online. They
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: play out on social media, but they can play out
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: on messaging and gaming platforms as well. So we'll be watching.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: We'll be watching for that too, and we'll have guidance
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: for parents, and we'll continue to have our reporting schemes
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: for cyberbullying and image based abuse. So I think this
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: will make parenting in the digital age a little bit easier.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: But you know, it's like anything if you compare it
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: to a car, no, if you're you know, we expect
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: the car makers to make safer cars and embed seat
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: builts and put airbags and that sort of thing. You know,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: they know that they're going to be inexperienced or bad
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: bad driver is there. You still have to follow the
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: rules of the road, but you're not going to be
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: penalized if you get into an accident. Right, it's the
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: same thing here. It's the platforms themselves that are responsible
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: will give parents guidance, but you know they can choose
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: how to parent how they want. If they want their
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: child who's under sixteen to have a platform that aren't
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: going to be penalized, and the child themselves won either.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: So when I hear that, the metaphor that I use
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: is you might move into a safer neighborhood, but you
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: still want to lock your door. Absolutely, okay. Last two questions,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Commissioner Grant and so grateful for your time. What is
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: the government doing about explicit content, specifically pornographic age gating?
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Where we're making big fuss about social media and rightly so,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: but most explicit websites simply require a user, whether they
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: are six or fifty six, to click the yes I'm
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: over eighteen button and they're in. That's as far as
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: it goes. At this point, it seems to me that
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: if we can do this with social media, we must
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: be able to do this with explicit and pornographic content.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: And we are, and that is through the industry codes
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: that I've just registered over the past couple of months.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: You'll see the first changes, particularly to search engines, at
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: the end of December this year, and then you'll see
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: changes up and down the stack. What these codes require
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: eight different sectors of the industry to do, from the
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: app stores to social media sites, to ISPs, search engines
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: and the like. It is again a layered safety approach,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: and each of them will have different requirements. So we
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: know that about fifty eight percent of young people under
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: the age of thirteen that come across pornography come about
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: it incidentally, accidentally and in your face. That's how they
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: describe it. Yeah, intel through an innocent search or a
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: browse on the Internet. So what our search engine codeodes
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: which were developed by industry themselves. But I decided to
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: register because I thought the amount appropriate community safeguards will
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: do from now on if it comes across peignt graphic
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: content or explicit violence they like the Charlie Kirk assassination,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: which has been designated refuse classification in Australia, it will
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: blur that if so that will prevent the incidental coming
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: across of that content. If you're an adult, you can
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: click through and you watch the adult content. It will
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: also for people who are seeking out suicide instructional material,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: it will refer them to a mental health site rather
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: than taking to them that to that kind of you know,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: perfect material that you can lead to greevous outcomes. But
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: we also will be requiring a whole broad range of
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: platforms to be using age assurance to prevent un eighteens
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: from maxising suicidal ideation content, self harm, disordered eating, explicit
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: violence and pornography. So again this is going to be
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: up and down the technology stack. It will also apply
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: to AI companions in chatbots, because we know that fifth
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: and sixth graders are spending up to five hours in
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: what they think are quasi romantic relationships with AI companions,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: and they're designed to be emotionally manipulative and to prey
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: on your best instincts and your worst fears from monetization purposes.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: We saw that in Parental Guidence season three when we
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: got the AI companions to chat with the kids, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: they were though and manipulative, they were absolutely concerning. So
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: that's reassuring. We'll probably get you back next to you
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: to have a chat about number one, how the social
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: medium in major legislation is rolling out, but number two
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: to talk more about those those explicit content and dangerous
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: content guidelines as they as they roll out as well.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Last question, and you've been so generous with your time
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: notifying apps there are massive concern in Australia at schools
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: at the moment are tearing their hair out as kids
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: get hold of them and then create explicit content based
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: off even innocuous school book photos of kids, usually girls,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: or teachers in their school. What can you offer parents
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: to help here. If they're concerned that their kids might
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: be either a victim of or a user of these
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: neudifying apps.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Well we share your concerns. Now we've using our mandatory standards.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: We've gone after a couple of newdifying companies, one in
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: which has created at least three very popular apps that
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: have been downloaded or viewed by at least two hundred
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: thousand Australians over the past year. So we're taking action
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: against them and the app stores that are hosting them.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: We've just won in court against a man who post
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to deep fakes of Australian women, you know, a fine
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: of up to three hundred and forty five thousand dollars,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: which may not seem big, but for an individual it
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: is and it is a deterrent. We've also developed a
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: deep fake image based abuse Incident Management toolkit for schools because,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: as you say, this is happening at least once a
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: week and schools across the country, and schools haven't known
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: how to deal with it. You know how to collect
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: the evidence, when to go to the police, when to
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: report to ease safety, and I will note if there's
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: intimate images or deep fake intimate imagery of a child
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: that's likely to be considered child sexual abuse material. We
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: can tackle that and we will work with law enforcement there,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: but we have the ninety eight percent success rate of
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: getting that kind of content down. What people need to understand,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and this is where I think we need some cultural
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: change with young people. They might think this is a
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: bit of a laugh and look what they can do
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: for this with this virtually free technology. Well, the cost
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the victim survivor is significant. It's humiliating, it's denigrating, and
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: it's incalculable in terms of the kinds of impact it
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: can have on young people. So we need to be
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: preventing this behavior from happening in the first place.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Julie, you've got a tough gig. Really appreciate the work
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: that you do and what you strive to do to
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: keep our community and particularly our young people and our
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: vulnerable people are safe. Thank you for your generous time today.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: King. Well, we'll try everything we can until it works.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: A big thank you, Julie Immigrant, the e Safety Commissioner
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: of Australia for taking time out of an incredibly busy
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: schedule to have a chat with me about all of
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: those things we could have talked for a lot longer,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: but hopefully there's enough detail there to put you straight
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: and get you started on conversations with your kids. E
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Safety dot gov dot au is where you find more
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: information and we will link in the show notes to
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: a bunch of resources that will be useful. In addition,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: check out the safety dot gov dot U website because
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of webinars to explain even more
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: about what's going on that are happening over the next
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: month or thereabouts. It would be well worth your time
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: having a look. Again, we'll link to that in the
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: show notes. Okay, longer one than normal today. Thanks so
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: much for listening. I hope that you've gotten heaps out
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: of it and found it to be helpful and informative.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides additional research, admin and other support,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: and if you'd like to find resources to help your
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: family to be happier and to function better, visit us
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot au. Tomorrow we're back
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: answering another one of your tricky questions on the pod