Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Who Am I Without Law? Erin Gerner on Rebuilding a Lawyer's Identity

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Who Am I Without Law? Erin Gerner on Rebuilding a Lawyer's Identity · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

0:00
SPEAKER_02: But what I realized was I didn't know who the hell Erin was if she wasn't a lawyer.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: It was like, so you can actually fall back in love with what you're doing.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: You don't hate practicing law.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: You just hate the way you're doing.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast where we are happy, healthy, and successful.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, you're the first person who like opens up the way I do with like the yay! I'm so excited.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: So I've been having just a blast listening to your podcast.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that I'm excited about is you're also a pink loving lawyer, so it seems.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: And uh, yep, exactly.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: And you say yay! Whenever I listen to my own podcast, which is hard, um, I've I've realized that I I basically start every episode with some variation of like, I'm so excited to talk to you, and I end up wondering what other people feel.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, is does that come off as weird when you just hear that the same every time?
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter, it's who I am, it's how it goes.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: But I don't always come across other people who have the same vibe, which and yours comes across with everything you're putting out online anyway.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: So I I knew it before I was listening.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and then you opened up with we had the same like woo-hoo.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: And I knew that was gonna be your vibe too.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Like I was looking at your stuff yesterday.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I feel like this girl and I are like vibing.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I feel like we're vibing.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: And then I like read your little caveat, you're like, I want to be on the beach with my feet in the sand.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: It like soothes my soul.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, and you are my soul sister, because that is exactly how I feel too.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: I grew up at the beach.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: So like You did?
1:55
SPEAKER_02: I did.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: What what beach?
1:56
SPEAKER_02: Where are you from?
1:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: I you know, people who grew up at the beach, I'm just like, you're brilliance, brilliance.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm really now I'm in East Texas, so I've completely lost my mind, but it's fine.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh dear, do you get yourself to the beach often enough?
2:12
SPEAKER_01: How do you manage?
2:13
SPEAKER_02: And my parents are still out there, and my brother and his wife and their two kids live out there, so we spend a lot of time in the summer and try and get out there as much as we can, but it is really sad.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: And like people are like, why are you here?
2:27
SPEAKER_02: Like, how why are you here?
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you end up here?
2:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's so you've got a much better option, like, that's not here.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: So okay, so let's begin with why are you there?
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Because I met my husband in law school, and he is from outside of Dallas, Texas, and so that's how we ended up here.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: So we were in Dallas proper for probably like 15 years, and then about God, maybe four years ago.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: I cannot believe it's been that long.
2:58
SPEAKER_02: Four years ago, we moved out to the country, like east, an hour of Dallas.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: We the kids go to school in a one-stop light, flashing, like flashing.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't go all the way yellow or green or red, it like flashes in the middle of the town.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: And so not what you were ever expecting.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: No, not at all, but it's the best, and we love it, and it's so wonderful, and we're close to all of our family.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Like 10 cousins go to school together, so it's really Oh wow.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's awesome.
3:29
unknown: Yeah.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And that okay, do you think about at some point getting back to the beach or is that just vacation life for you?
3:35
SPEAKER_02: I think we'll I think I think I'll be back there because obviously my parents are still there.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm the oldest daughter.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, we know what's gonna happen when like the tables start to turn here.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: Like, who's gonna be in charge?
3:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, love my brother, but I'm gonna be in charge.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, like I I know eventually I'll be like tables will kind things will kind of start switching as they get older.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: Like right now, they're fine.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: They're in freaking Brazil, like on some like national geographic, I don't know what the hell they're doing.
4:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, they're fine.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: But eventually, yes.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And my husband and I talk about all the time having a beach house out there.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, so because I can't imagine, like, once the kids are off and in college, like I'll be like, I'll be at the beach.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: That I mean, that is we were just at the beach this morning.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Where I thrive.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: The more my toes are in the sand, the more I thrive.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: I am charged by the sun and the sand.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: And when when I met my husband, he did not believe himself to be a beach person.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: He did not understand spending time in the sand.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: And he is now, I've turned him.
4:47
SPEAKER_02: Which is where are your toes in the sand?
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Today we're in Costa Rica, and we we became digital nomads a year and something ago, um, and spend most of our nomading time at beaches around the world.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: It's been a very good decision.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
5:09
SPEAKER_02: I this I am fascinated about.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's incredible.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: And it's, you know, if anyone had asked me a couple years ago, like, could I envision this sort of thing for myself?
5:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would have just laughed at them because, like, what?
5:26
SPEAKER_01: And how?
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like so many questions.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: How would that even be a thing?
5:30
SPEAKER_01: How could that be?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And it's not like I had examples of anyone doing this.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: The the short version, and it's not that there's actually even much longer of a version, but we um we just once we decided to do it, we just did it.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: And I have a really complex health history, so I really I couldn't travel for most of my life, which was very painful for me.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And that completely my my health totally transformed in the last four-ish years.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: And so now I can travel.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: So once we realized that I could travel, I was like, I want to travel.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: And we had for a long time had this idea of like, what if we could just have like five houses around the world in in different climates so we could always be in exactly the right climate when we want to be there and just like never be cold because we're both from the East Coast and we're done being cold.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And so we we just we combined a few ideas that we'd had in sort of life adjustments um or life changes.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: And then we're like, well, what if we just didn't live anywhere?
6:32
SPEAKER_01: And we were living in Santa Barbara at the time.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: So we were it's not like we were in a in a place like we had to get out of.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like it's not like you're in the middle of Iowa, like we lived by the beach, and yet like during winter, like we could walk to the beach and we did.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, but like during winter, you know, we'd realized that people were coming to Santa Barbara to get away from their cold places into vacation.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: We were like, where how can we get somewhere warmer?
6:56
SPEAKER_01: Because we're wearing light jackets and we don't want to.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: And anyways, we just around March 2025.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: I guess actually, I think we decided in February, we just decided, like, hey, what if we didn't live anywhere and we just traveled?
7:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's the way that we were always where we wanted to be.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: And a few weeks later, we had we didn't live anywhere.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: Like the things that seem hard, you're just like, okay, well, this is hard, but there is a way, right?
7:27
SPEAKER_02: Like it may take some uncomfortable decision making.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I have to do things that are outside of my comfort zone.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: But if I really want this, then I can make it happen.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: It's like there's so many things in life that we convince ourselves that we can't do just because it's like hard and complicated.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Because if it and this goes with the the um Pete the art the words you have behind you, she believed she could, so she did.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's not how I was for the first chunk of my life, you know.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: And I I I was always pushing through stuff, but there would always be categories where I was just like, well, I can't be perfect if that the first time, so I'm not gonna do it.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And over time, I just was like, well, how is hard be like the fact that that might be hard is not relevant.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: And around the travel piece, what I tell people is it took years for us to become the people who could decide to do it and pretty much immediately do it.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you just you sometimes don't wake up and become that person, right?
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Like you have to.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's not an overnight thing.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, first you have to go through a lot of pain and confusion and challenges and you know, not believing in yourself and all the things, and then you just kind of, you know, it's when people talk about like overnight success and they're like, it's not overnight, it's just like you didn't know about me before, so it looks overnight to you.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: I didn't suddenly become this person who just like had an idea and did it.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: So let's stop talking about me.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Talk about you.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, again, I'm just I'm so excited to have this conversation.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm so thrilled to know you.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: And when I first came across you through the magic of LinkedIn, I was like, oh my God, there's another one of like my people.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: And it's just taken so long for like, why did it take so long for us to find each other?
9:20
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we're doing so much of the same things, and like just didn't know.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: And so I and you've been having these conversations with lawyers, I think, even longer than I have.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: And certainly you've had your your Powerhouse Lawyers podcast for way longer.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: And so before we even get into that, tell me.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: So you're you're a practicing lawyer, you took a pause for a while, you're back to practicing, and you have this amazing podcast and coaching business where you help primarily women level up and become themselves and build the practices and lives that actually suit them and in this phase of life that they're currently in, not like the person that at some point they were or thought they were going to be.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: So before we get into all of that amazing work you're doing now, tell me, why did you go to law school?
10:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, I wish I had like a brilliant reason.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: It was like, oh my gosh, like I wanted to fight injustice and like be like make change and a change maker and a world, whatever.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: But truly, I this is so funny.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: I was um I had a woman on my podcast yesterday and she put this so eloquently stuff I have to use and steal her language.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I got done with college and I honestly like I didn't know what my next step were.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: And she was like, yesterday, she's like, I knew I wasn't done with education yesterday.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I was just kind of like, I didn't know what else I wanted to do, so I went to law school.
10:54
SPEAKER_02: But I was like, I like the part where I wasn't done with education.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: That sounds a lot more PC, but whatever.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, but anyway, so that was me.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: That that was, you know, 20-something Erin who had been, you know, told her whole life, like, you excel at school, you really like to argue, you know, all of these things.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: And um, my dad was an optometrist growing up, my mom was a nurse, so like I didn't know any lawyers, but just kind of the way I grew up.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's like you go be like a doctor or a lawyer or uh or a whatever.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: Like that's like the next high-level prestigious thing for smart people to do.
11:30
SPEAKER_02: And that and and for a long time I thought that sounded ridiculous because you talk to people who went to law school and they're like, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer and I this and I wanted to fight social injustice and like all this stuff, and here I am just like rolling up to law school, like I don't know what else I wanted to do with myself.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: But that truly is kind of what ended up happening.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: And so I get to law school and I love school.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's the thing.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, you give me a classroom and like a syllabus, and I am like a happy girl.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Like it's like it's like a sickness.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: Um but anyway, I love I loved law school.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: So I I loved everything about it.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: I excelled, did all the things I was supposed to do, graduated in the top 10%, went to big law, you know, all that kind of stuff.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: But still along the way, you can like sense the theme of I wasn't really sure where I was going.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: I was just following the path that I thought I was supposed to be on.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: So what did those first few years of your career look like when you were following the path that you thought was the correct path?
12:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, they were miserable.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: It was, you know, a full-on drinking from the fire hose situation.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, you get into big law and again, you're just following the path.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: Like, no one prepares you for this.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: Like, no one is like throwing back the rope and like I mean, there was not a lot of mentoring that was happening 20 some odd years ago.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: I I I I hope and I like to believe that in small pockets things are changing.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, but at this time, it was very much a just a sink or swim situation.
13:11
SPEAKER_02: And I just remember I had always like had anxiety in my life, but had never found it crippling or, you know, to the point where it was like affecting my daily life.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: Like I don't remember that in college.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: Like I try and think back to those years and I don't remember feeling like stuff like that so heavy.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: But when I got into the practice of law, like I was literally like physically sick every morning before I went to work.
13:37
SPEAKER_02: Like I would puke before I'd go to work.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: And that sounds so like to the lay person You're not the only person to have said that on this podcast.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: And and then to the lay person who like has no idea what we're talking about, I was like, what the hell?
13:50
SPEAKER_02: But that is not an uncommon thing.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: And so I just remember honestly, I would sit in my office in my suit and in this thing, and I'm like overlooking downtown Dallas, and I would just sit there at my computer and be like, what am I supposed to be doing?
14:07
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I'm doing.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is a lot, you know?
14:12
SPEAKER_02: And so those were the first couple years.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And the silver lining of that experience is I did happen to where I was in the real estate department doing real estate, and my big law career was cut short in 2008 when the real estate market went completely upside down.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: And I like to say that that's like God's way of kind of doing me a favor in that situation.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: But um a silver lining, the partner in the um the real estate department was a man named Brian Ford.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: Shout out, shout out Brian, and he was amazing.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: He he was obviously an older gentleman, but but he like he thought normally, right?
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Like it wasn't this do or die mentality.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: He was like, he saw me as a person and he knew that I was a young baby lawyer and he was trying to mentor me and like teach me and like help me along the way.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: And truly that was like the only saving grace in that entire experience.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, so that that was my that was my that was my big law.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: I think I just remember also like the other women in big law looking at the partners that and they were so mean.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: Like no one was helping, no one was mentoring.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: It was like I walked 15 miles in the snow, you're walking 20.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: Like it was just like none of that.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: And I just remember thinking to myself, I don't want any of this.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, if this is what success in the law looks like, like I don't want this.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't want any of this.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: But then you've arrived, and what what are you supposed to do?
15:49
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is the job, and everybody else looks like they're fine.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Right?
15:56
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: That part of well, everyone else seems like they're fine comes up so often.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: And so much of that is because we're most of us are really good at hiding how much we're struggling.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: And I've had this particular conversation with so many lawyers who, you know, sometimes it's been after they've eventually gone on a mental health leap or something like that, where they they made the change and they took the time off or whatever, whatever it is, way later than would have been ideal because of exactly what you just said.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: It's well, I look, I I looked at everybody else and they were fine.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: So I should be able to handle it.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: And often my response is like, Well, you weren't fine.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: Do you think anyone could have figured that out?
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, no.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: So, how do you know that anyone else, not even everyone else, anyone else was actually okay?
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And we're all different.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: We have different capacities, we have different interests, we have different backgrounds, all of that stuff.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: And someone else not be someone else being okay doesn't mean that you should be.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: So, what was the point when you realized, oh, I gotta get out.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Something needs to change.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it's interesting how you can look back on things and like at the time I was convinced that all these things were happening to me when instead, like I know now that this was all happening for me, right?
17:17
SPEAKER_02: Like everything was happening for me.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: But at the time, it's hard, it's hard to see, see those things clearly.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: So a number of things in late 08, early 09, things were really, you know, sticky.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: Let's just say anyone who wasn't around during that time, like if you were living under a rock, like go check it out.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, so they ended up laying off the entire real estate department.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: Like, we were the chicks, like with our banker boxes, like walking outside the law firm that you would see on the news.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, left that job, got a severance, thank God we were like some of the early people.
17:52
SPEAKER_02: And then I ended up going in-house with an oil and gas company a couple months later.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: And I just remember thinking internally, like, okay, this is what they this is the part they say it gets easier, like, right?
18:04
SPEAKER_02: Like you go in-house and you like actually work a normal job and you've like got normal hours and like all this stuff.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: So, like in my mind, I'm like, okay, this is gonna be better.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: Like all lies.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: Get into this position and and that may be the case for some position for some people, but I think it was just like the stereotype and the you know, as you're going down the path, it's like, oh, well, once you go and to big law, like the next step could be like going in-house or whatever.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just like that.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, it's just this theme in the law that people get behind and it's taken then as truth.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: So I get in this job and it's predominantly male dominated.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm in the oil and gas industry and I became a mom at this job.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: And so that changed everything.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: So about two years into that job, I had my first daughter, and she was born seven weeks premature.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: And so I literally walked out of the office one Friday thinking I had like two more months to have a baby and freaking had a baby.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: Like left and had a baby, and then I'm like calling, you know, HR on Monday, like after a C-section, like, oh PS, I had my baby, and I've got to take and all I'm thinking in my mind is I only have eight weeks of maternity leave, right?
19:25
SPEAKER_02: This baby was born seven weeks early, and I'm gonna spend my entire maternity leave in the hospital with this baby.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's exactly where my mind started going.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: So you can see like the immediate change in who I was, what my priorities were, what was important to me.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: You know, and I didn't realize this about myself.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: So the job doesn't change, but I am there just changing.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, my daughter's fine, she's perfect.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: She was in the hospital just for a little bit, she's a champ.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, everything was fine.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: We went home, everyone's healthy, and I went back to work.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I I can't do like it was you know what I mean?
20:02
SPEAKER_02: Like you come back to an environment that has not changed, but you have completely changed.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't have a mentor and I didn't really have any guidance to have anyone any other moms who've who've walked that, who've been like, I know it's hard to come back, you know.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: All of all of these things that are happening, I just felt really alone.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: So when she was about two, um, I decided I was gonna stay home.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: I was gonna leave that job and stay home.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: It was like, okay, that's gonna, I'm gonna rip that band-aid off and that's gonna solve the problem.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, as we all know, that's just not how it didn't work like that, huh?
20:39
SPEAKER_02: That's not how life works.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: And so I was so lucky to be able to go home and stay home with my older daughter.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: I had another baby in that time.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: But what I realized was I didn't know who the hell Erin was if she wasn't a lawyer.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: It was like massive identity crisis, like let's go.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, you get you get so wrapped up thinking, like, if I just leave this pain point, like if I can just get this out of my life, then I'm gonna feel better.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: That's not how this works.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: That's not how doing the work, right?
21:17
SPEAKER_02: Like that that's just not how it works.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: So that was kind of the next part of my journey is who is Aaron if she's not a lawyer after all that.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: So did you understand up and before this point how much of your identity was wrapped up in being and having that I'm an attorney identity?
21:38
SPEAKER_02: No, I don't, I don't think I did.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: And I don't, and the women that I work with, we talk about this.
21:44
SPEAKER_02: Like we a lot, we are very candidly like we don't realize how we have completely attached our identity and our worth and our value to the productivity that we have in our life and what our job needs.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: It's and it's super common.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: And I and I and I did not realize it.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: And it took me years to unwind.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: And frankly, I'm still, I think we're all becoming, right?
22:08
SPEAKER_02: Like we're all still trying to unwind parts of ourselves from the other parts, right?
22:13
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: What was the most surprising thing for you of what you realized about your identity of who you actually are when you strip away the attorney piece?
22:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, I had all of these other interests in like things that I was good at that I didn't know.
22:36
SPEAKER_02: What?
22:37
SPEAKER_02: Right?
22:38
SPEAKER_02: Like it's so interesting.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure you have found this through your podcast because I have found it through mine.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, lawyers are the most wildly creative people like I have ever met.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: And it's crazy.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: Like they come on and they're like, I did this and I've written a book and I started a play, and I'm a comedian, and I'm like all of these like just amazing things, but that that part of the creativity is sucked out of us for so long.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, there's not a creative writing class in law school newsflash, like no one is going off the grid.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: And so I think once I stripped away the lawyer part, I was able to see and enjoy and have it bring forward these other parts of myself that I really liked and that were valuable.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: Like I had not made them valuable, right?
23:28
SPEAKER_02: Like being a lawyer is an amazing attribute in my life.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Like it has like the way I think, the way I do everything.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's amazing.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: But me allowing all of these other things in have just made everything else more full.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: Like when it stopped becoming about the one thing and it became about everything, then it makes everything be more feel more full and fulfilling.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I can resonate with that so strongly.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: I I got my sixth concussion, and I like to say last, and I'm determined for it to be the last in 2018.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, in 2018, and it was, you know, I did not have the mindset at all that I have now, and so I tried to push through it for a month.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Bad idea.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: And it turned, and I was forced to end up taking time off from work, and it was one of the best things ever because it forced me into boredom, which led me to discover my creativity and start realizing, oh, I can be a lawyer and so as you started to realize these and parts for you, what what were you understanding that you actually like wanted to put out into the world?
24:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, so funny, and is like my favorite word, and I think lawyers do not use the word and enough.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, why does it have to We use but I'm I'm really working on exchanging but for and yes, I was like, it doesn't have to be either, like it can be both.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Both, yes, both, yeah.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, so me kind of realizing this, well, it's funny because I think that um nothing really happens by accident, but I also think that you have to keep taking action in your life and like putting, you know, whatever the next best step is, right?
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Like putting the next foot forward and saying yes to things and being open to opportunities when they come, even though they may not make sense at the time.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of what happened to me.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: Like I had a like a social selling opportunity come to me.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: It was about wine.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: It was a former lawyer who had started a wine company and she was doing like clean crafted wine, and I was like, I I what?
25:44
SPEAKER_02: And so I mean, the whole thing, I was like, what?
25:46
SPEAKER_02: This doesn't make any sense.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: This has nothing to do with who I am or what I do.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: But for some reason, I was like, okay, like I like wine.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, like I can sell wine, um, I can do this.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: And so I started a business marketing wine, and what I learned, and what ended up happening was I learned a lot about business.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: I learned a lot about entrepreneurship.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: I got put in community with other women who were thinking differently, who were doing life differently, who were breathing life into me, who were there supporting me, cheering me on in a way that I've never experienced in my life.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: I have lots of girlfriends.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying I don't have friends, but like, you know, to have community around your job is different than having community around you, like in your life, for your personal, your friends, like that kind of stuff.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: And especially for female lawyers, it is a very isolating, lonely place.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: Like it can be.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Community's hard, you know, law is adversarial.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: Like you're always sitting against your opponent, whether you want to or not.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: Like it just kind of is the way it is.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that sometimes that like translates into like an underlying competitiveness that doesn't need to be there.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: And so when this opportunity presented myself, I got myself in front of community and I started succeeding in this business, like doing really well.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: And they were putting me on stages, they were asking me to teach, they were asking me to coach and mentor things that I couldn't see in myself yet, people were seeing in me and calling me forward, and I was going.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: Like that's I think that was like the turning point.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: I was just like, okay, like even though I was scared and I was like, I I don't know how to like speak on sales at a stage, like what?
27:35
SPEAKER_02: But I'm gonna do it because like these people believe in me and I'm gonna push past the fear.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: And so just and at a time in my life where everything else felt like it was falling apart.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: So like there was just some other like personal stuff going on in the background.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, okay, let's go.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: And it was just that point of other people believing in me, me being around community, and me just doing the hard thing and willing to do it messy.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Um and just do it messy and scared.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: And so that just really led into me wanting to start my own business because at a certain point you were like, Well, I can do this for myself.
28:16
SPEAKER_02: Like I I can do this for me, and these are the people that I can help.
28:20
SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of where that evolved too.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: So one thing with obviously your background as a lawyer, how did it feel to do things messy?
28:30
SPEAKER_02: It was really hard.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: It was really hard, and there was a lot of procrastination involved.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Fear.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: It is, it's really hard to do things messy.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: It's hard to put something out there and feel like you like all it is is going to be judged.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I've learned a lot of things in being in business for yourself, and that is you gotta have a really short memory.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: Other people's opinions are none of your business.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, done is better than perfect.
29:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, show up, even if it's messy.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's just so many things that I've learned and been able to like put down over time.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, saying those things and doing those things were not easy five, not as easy five years ago as they are today.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: There's been a lot of unlearning and undoing, you know, just the way that we've almost like been indoctrinated as lawyers.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: Like I've had to undo a lot of the mindset that has been like laid down in my mind for a long time.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: One of the pieces of all this, you know, non-stop learning that I have just found mind-boggling is there will be a category, often it's around perfectionism, where suddenly I'm like, that's another area that I still have to work on, but I've I've gotten so much better at not beating myself up about not being perfect.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll realize, well, I was doing it in like that category or that context of life and haven't even touched like this other silo.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my god, here we go again.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Yay! Yeah, it's always turned into a fun project, but it's yeah, and that's what I tell my clients all the time.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, we're all on the same journey.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Like, just because I'm a couple steps ahead doesn't mean that we're not all on the same journey.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: And I am convinced, like now doing this for so many years, that I am always teaching what I need.
30:19
SPEAKER_02: Always.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't matter.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: It may like I may not even know that that's what I'm going to need to coach or teach on, but I needed to do it because I needed to damn hear it myself, too.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: I get that.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: So when did coaching lawyers come into play and developing the podcast?
30:42
SPEAKER_02: So um I, like I said, I had started that side hustle type thing.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: I actually grew that into a pretty substantial business and I was, you know, really involved with that company.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: And then I started my own coaching company and I was coaching other people in that industry, and but I didn't really like have a niche of people that I was coaching, and I knew like in my heart of hearts what I was doing and who I was coaching like in that particular industry.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not what I wanted to do.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, I was ready to excuse me, move on from that, but I didn't really know what it was.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: Hired a coach myself, and she's the one who called me forward and was like, why are you not helping lawyers?
31:22
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, I'm not a lawyer anymore.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: Do we love this?
31:27
SPEAKER_02: Do we love the mindset?
31:28
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is seriously like, hello.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: I've like unwound myself from my identity so much that I've convinced myself that I'm not a lawyer anymore just because I'm not actively practicing.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I have a bar card, I'm a lawyer, like like I can lawyer tomorrow if I wanted to.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: But I had just convinced myself that again, like baby lawyer Aaron, who was hurt and like, you know, didn't you know, has a lot of trauma around the profession, baby lawyer Aaron had like carried that forward into this, into this next phase.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: And so that's the the beauty of coaching.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: Yay! The beauty of coaching for someone to kind of like put up a mirror and see what you cannot see at the time.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: And so she was like, You need to be helping lawyers.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: You are a lawyer.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, you're not teaching these people about evidence or CivPro, like you're teaching them about your ex like you've experienced what they are experiencing, like that is what is important.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: And so I literally this is crazy.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: I got on Facebook, I made like an image on Canva, and I said, I'm looking for six people to join me in this new beta round of coaching.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's gonna it's just the value is the value, and then I'd love testimonials back or whatever.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: So, like I was just gonna put this out on the internet and see what happened.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Just looking for six women.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: There were 40 women in my DMs.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: 40.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: How shocks were you?
32:58
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Okay, God, like ha ha ha.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I see you, that's so funny.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, okay.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: So I called my coach and she's like, I told you.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: So that's how Powerhouse Lawyers literally started is that that cohort, there were six women in that cohort, and we did six weeks, um, and they were wonderful, and I gave them everything I had because I had no idea what I was doing.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: And this is also starting messy because mind you, when I put that out and those 40 women were in my DM, I did not have a program that I was beta testing.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: I had no program.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: Like the program that the program was then developed after the people came.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that first cohort and going in, because you didn't even believe that you had value to offer.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: No, I had no problem.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Your coach, so you didn't think you had anything to offer, your coach said do it.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: 40 people, six people, sorry, 40 people said yes, you duck in just a small percentage of that, and you started with no real plan.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: So, and it it's turned into what it has now.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: So it must have gone pretty well.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: So what did you go ahead?
34:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh, go ahead.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I interrupted your question.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: I I want to know like how like the first session went and how you felt going into it and how things proceeded throughout that whole first round, if you will.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: And I have no doubt that everyone who went through that with you came out flourishing.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: It was wild, actually.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, I have never been so nervous about anything in my life because like I truly, I was like, I don't know what I'm doing.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: But the beautiful thing is, is this women did know that I didn't know what I was doing.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: So it's always a thing to remember.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: That's always a thing to remember, people is like, you know what I mean?
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, I a thousand percent.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: And I this has actually been one of the things that I've been reminding myself around too, because I'm I've become now a person who just does things that I'm scared of that I know I'm not yet perfect at, and I do it so that I can become better.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Because by the way, it turns out you can't get better if you don't start.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: And the thing that I'm uh nothing as if there's only one.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I'm always reminding myself is I may have had an idea in my mind of how much better it could have gone, or what I felt like I didn't know, what I felt like was awkward, all of the flaws, if you will, but they don't know that.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: They don't know what it could have been what you didn't say what you had said differently.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: No, no idea that you messed it and left out a whole section, they didn't know it was in there.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, they don't know.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: They don't know.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: So I had to just kind of keep reminding myself of that.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: And so after I had these six women, like I had a structure.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Like I was like, can we talk about this, this, this, this.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
35:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, I kind of had like a like in my mind the way I was gonna, the way I was gonna do it, and and and we just did it.
35:55
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was just like it was one of those things where I was just like, okay, I'm just showing up a hundred and ten percent every week.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna give it everything I have.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: And those women were there, you know, excited.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: And so what was really interesting about that is I um briefly after that, I started I started hosting retreats for lawyers.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: I haven't hosted them in a couple years, but I hosted several back-to-back for a couple years.
36:19
SPEAKER_02: And that one, my very first retreat, I had one spot to fill.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: And the spot that ended up getting filled was a woman who was in that cohort.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: That very, very first cohort.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: She filled the last spot on my very first retreat, and it was her in the very beginning always.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Wow.
36:40
SPEAKER_02: Very full circle.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we and I've just kept you know, iterating from there, like just going and just developing new.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, and that's the thing when uh people get so twisted, like I've gotta have all this material and I've gotta like know what I'm gonna teach, and all that kind of like yes, and like you really don't know what these people need until you know who they are.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, I didn't know what the itinerary of my retreats were gonna be until I knew who the retreat members were gonna be.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Right?
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, not all of them, but the majority of them.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: So, like if I had a retreat that was heavy on solo firm owners, then I'm gonna gear my retreat around what those women need to know and hear.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: Like allowing yourself that flexibility, I think, is huge in business and especially like in the work that we do, because no lawyer, no two lawyers are the same, no two lawyer experiences are the same.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: So when they come to me for coaching, I'm like, this is this is like generally how we do this, but it's different every single time.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Was there a point or a a series of sort of uh your just having your own awareness where you realized, oh, I can do this and I'm actually good at this, and I'm gonna keep going because this is the gap and I can fill it.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it was, you know, that first I that first client who signs and pays in full, and you're like, okay, I have a business and I can do this.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
38:22
SPEAKER_02: Like I remember, I remember that moment.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: I was like, there is a person in this universe who 100% believes in who I am, what I have to offer, and knows that I can help them get to the next level, and they just put their money where their mouth is.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: So let's go.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: And that was really like like if you don't believe it after that, then you're never gonna believe it.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: What are some of the common themes that come up with your clients and your podcast guests?
38:54
SPEAKER_02: Some of the common things and a lot lately, and I think that this is so important to point out, is I think especially after we've been practicing.
39:03
SPEAKER_02: So there, the I the gamut of women come to me.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: Like I have had a woman who graduated from law school, went straight into big law, and eight months later is like, this is terrible.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: I need out like abort missions.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: Like, I need like where else can we go?
39:17
SPEAKER_02: And so, like, you know, I'm I'm working with her there.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, but several of the women that I've worked with recently, it's an interesting theme, and I think this is so important to to point out.
39:29
SPEAKER_02: You get to the point in your practice where it stops becoming what it once was.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Like it's all the minutiae and the bullshit and the logistics and the this and the that, and you're like, I hate this, like I hate all this, I want out, I'm done.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: Like I I want to be done.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Like I hate practicing law.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: But is that really true?
39:50
SPEAKER_02: Do you hate practicing law or do you have you just are we just not?
39:56
SPEAKER_02: We hate the way we're doing it right now, the boundaries that we've allowed in or or lack thereof, right?
40:03
SPEAKER_02: The delegating that needs to happen, right?
40:05
SPEAKER_02: Like there are ways to step back from the intense friction that you're experiencing right now and look at the reality of what's happening, and maybe it's not burn it all down, right?
40:20
SPEAKER_02: Like a lot, we just you come to the point where where you get so burned out and so tired that you are ready to just set fire to the whole thing.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times it's not setting fire to the whole thing, it's literally stepping back and making small, simple adjustments in your life and the way that you are practicing so you can actually fall back in love with what you're doing.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: You don't hate practicing law, you just hate the way you're doing it.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: That's such an interesting point.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think you're right that so many, I think a lot of us don't even know the options of what practicing law can look like.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: And we're often just on this autopilot and don't know how to just take a pause and recognize what's filling me up and what's totally draining me, and how do I do more of the parts that energize me and less of the draining stuff?
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Because it's possible, maybe where you are, maybe not, but it's available to you.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: But first, you have to know that.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's the answer isn't always burning it down, right?
41:19
SPEAKER_02: Like the answer can be, and I say this all the time small, simple changes over time make massive difference.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: So, like, it's what are the small things that you want back in your life?
41:31
SPEAKER_02: You want dinner at home with your kids three nights a week?
41:35
SPEAKER_02: You want to walk with your husband on Tuesdays?
41:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, we are breaking it down, and we're like, it's right, like you've got to go back to the to the small, simple stuff and let that build on the rest to be able to reset the whole thing.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, like things have kind of gotten off the rails, but there's a way to get it back on.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: You don't need to burn everything down, you don't need a new job, you don't need to take a sabbatical and go to Bali.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you don't right, like we don't need to do all of those things.
42:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe, maybe, once we talk about it, maybe.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: But likely, we just need to back up and start Mac making some personal internal changes, and then we can start to see things more clearly.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite things that you talked about was that sometimes people are coming to you because they need someone to help them stop hiding, and really hiding from themselves, I would say.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: Tell me what that means to you.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: I think that means a lot of us have more and dreams and what if I could do this, or like I really love this, like, but you know, I've got this job, I've got a couple kids, like it's really, you know, I've got we've got all this other, I don't really have time to do that.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: And then we talk ourselves way off.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it's like yes, but maybe later.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: Maybe when things calm down, you know, maybe when I've got more X or whatever you think you need.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: And so I just think that a lot of times we don't realize that we have everything already inside of us that we need to succeed.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think you could I think we're waiting on one more one more webinar, one more person's permission, you know, one more piece of education, like one more bit of confidence, right?
43:37
SPEAKER_02: Like you have everything already inside you that you need to succeed.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it just takes a person being like, Yeah, that's possible.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Right?
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Like it just and it seems so simple, but it is like we we hide behind our jobs and behind success and behind busy and behind everything.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Else and ev everything that's hiding behind that are the things that we love, the things that we enjoy, the things that we are good at, the things that fill our cup.
44:09
SPEAKER_02: And you forget about those things.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: And they your cup doesn't get filled anymore because everything else is taking priority.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: How do you think about what success means now?
44:22
SPEAKER_02: I what I think about what success means is how I feel.
44:28
SPEAKER_02: And like what's important to me is really what's recognizing like what's important to me and also understanding that life operates in phases.
44:36
SPEAKER_02: Like my girls are 15 and 11 right now.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: So where I was five years ago and my priorities is completely, is completely different.
44:45
SPEAKER_02: Like what success meant then is different than what it means now.
44:49
SPEAKER_02: And it's not just the financial part of success.
44:52
SPEAKER_02: It's am I like fulfilled?
44:54
SPEAKER_02: Am I there and present for my daughters?
44:56
SPEAKER_02: Am I, you know, am I there and present for my business, building it the way I want to be?
45:02
SPEAKER_02: Like that is what success means to me.
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Success means getting to sit on the sidelines watching my kids do what they love every single Friday night.
45:11
SPEAKER_02: My, you know, success to me is partnering with my husband in this new insurance business that we have and getting to build that part of our future.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: Like that is what success means to me.
45:22
SPEAKER_02: It is multifaceted.
45:23
SPEAKER_02: It's not just about like what my job title is, what I'm doing, how much money I'm making, all that kind of stuff.
45:29
SPEAKER_02: It's about all these different aspects of my life.
45:31
SPEAKER_02: And if I'm filling the cup in all of them, my health, my wealth, my family, my relationships, my relationship with God, like all of that stuff needs to be operating at an optimal level for me to feel successful.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: And if I'm feeling off, then obviously one of those cups needs to be filled back up.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: So you recently-ish decided to go back to practicing law.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that decision.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, this was definitely not on my bingo card for 2026 at all.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, but again, it's just like a matter of like sometimes being in the right place at the right time and just being willing to say yes.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: So through my podcast, I actually had a former client, she was one of my one-on-one clients, um, and had been to several of my retreats, was talking about her law firm that she's built from when her kids were little, just like in the pockets of when she could, to now.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're, you know, blowing and going.
46:30
SPEAKER_02: They got 20 employees.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: It's like very amazing to have watched her success.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: And she it's really important to her to be able to support entrepreneurial attorneys.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: Like she was, like I am, but there's not really a space for that.
46:44
SPEAKER_02: Like as an entrepreneurial attorney, like there's really not a whole lot of options.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna go work for another firm, then you're like obligated to their billable hours and you know, all of that kind of stuff.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: But I don't want to go solo because I I mean, I don't want to hang my own shingle because I don't want to like get into all that.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: Like I don't want to get into the logistics of of all that.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: But what she's been able to do is develop an umbrella under her firm for entrepreneur attorneys.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's like you're under the GNS umbrella, but you have your own business.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: So you just bring in what you want, work in, work on what you want.
47:22
SPEAKER_02: So it just allows great flexibility.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: You can do it whenever, whenever, whoever.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: So I'm not, you know, tied down to 3,000 millible hour, you know, like some ungodly like thing with this firm.
47:37
SPEAKER_02: Like I have the firm underneath me, so then I can go out and practice.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, several clients who've come to me for whatever with the insurance company.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: We have people who need like business formation, you know, all this kind of stuff.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: So like I I can now do that, but I can do it on my own terms and I'm not obligated to do it on somebody else's schedule.
47:59
SPEAKER_02: And so we got off the podcast, and I was like, um, so yeah, I think I'm gonna need to like, we're gonna need to talk about what you just talked about on the podcast.
48:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I think I want to do that.
48:14
SPEAKER_02: Like what you just said on the podcast, like now that we're not recording, I think I want to do that.
48:19
SPEAKER_02: And so we went out to lunch, and there we go.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: I love that so much.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: I want to talk to her because that's actually the model that I'm building with my law firm for the same exact reason.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: It's there are so many people, lawyers, amazing at what they do and like it, but don't want it to be their entire life and don't want it to take over their life.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: And whether it's because, you know, they only want to work, you know, a certain number of hours because of family or health, or they have three other businesses that they're passionate about and they don't want to have to choose and they just want flexibility.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, why not do it that way?
48:52
SPEAKER_01: It totally works.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: I much prefer practicing with while I have these other things that I do, and it makes me better at lawyering because I don't I'm I'm more creative, I have experiences with other things, and I'm an entrepreneur in multiple facets of my life.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: So then when I work with entrepreneurs, like I get it.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: I'll have to connect you two because y'all are very kindred spirits, but she has the same mentality, like especially you know, hard for mom lawyers.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, it's hard for mom lawyers, like you need to give them a space where they can actually like be successful, but not be burdened down to you know, an 80-hour work week or something.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: So I love that we're finally here.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: I would have given anything for an opportunity like this 20 years ago.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: Like it would have been so ideal.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm just thinking to myself, like, when I was trying to go back to part-time law when my second daughter was really little, you know, several years 10 plus years ago.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, there were not options like this.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: And people like exactly, people are leaving law when when they don't want to, they just don't know how to make it work in a way that aligns with their values and their lifestyle.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy for you that you found this fit.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: How's it feeling?
50:15
SPEAKER_02: It's actually really fun.
50:17
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I will say, I had to do a lot of work on baby lawyer Erin.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: I had to do a lot of work on her.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: I did not realize like the work is never this is like just a candidate.
50:29
SPEAKER_02: It's this is very candid, y'all.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: Like, I haven't, you know, been actively practicing in over 10 years.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: Like, I've done legal work here and there.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's not, and I've still got my license is active and all this kind of stuff.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: It's not like I'm a dinosaur and I haven't done anything.
50:45
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: But still, I haven't been actively practicing.
50:50
SPEAKER_02: So here comes the doubt.
50:53
SPEAKER_02: Here comes the doubt.
50:54
SPEAKER_02: The doubt is creeping in.
50:56
SPEAKER_02: Can I do this?
50:57
SPEAKER_02: Who who what does does anyone want to hire me?
51:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, who wants to hire the chick that hasn't done this in 10 years?
51:02
SPEAKER_02: You know, the whole the whole thing.
51:06
SPEAKER_02: I can't do this, I'm not good enough.
51:08
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
51:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
51:10
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
51:10
SPEAKER_02: Like you so much crap started coming up.
51:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was wild.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Aaron, this is like stuff that I have not dealt with in years, but it was, you know, I can understand why, right?
51:24
SPEAKER_02: Like I am, for the very first time in a long time identifying myself as this again.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: Like I've haven't done that in a really I haven't done that in a really long time.
51:37
SPEAKER_02: I kind of like gotta dust this off.
51:39
SPEAKER_02: But it has been so much fun and it is so much easier to be a lawyer now.
51:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know what in the world.
51:46
SPEAKER_02: Like 15 years ago, oh my God.
51:50
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I mean, we made it way harder than it needed to be.
51:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh my god, this is so much easier in a lawyer right now.
51:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I've got a great mentor, she's so supportive.
52:03
SPEAKER_02: She's you can do the I mean, there's nothing that I don't know, right?
52:06
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing that I don't know.
52:08
SPEAKER_02: I know how to do this.
52:10
SPEAKER_02: It's like riding a bike, and that's really what it's been.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: And so after I've had to like coach myself through the beginning, it has been very, very fulfilling.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited about this because when I think about after my kids like go to college and what my next phase is to have something of my own.
52:31
SPEAKER_02: Not that I didn't have powerhouse lawyers or whatever, but it's it's like building something in a different way.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know I was going to be fulfilled the way I was doing this.
52:40
SPEAKER_02: So it's been really good.
52:42
SPEAKER_01: I love hearing that.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: And I also am so grateful for what you just shared about the work you didn't expect to have to do.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: Cause that, I mean, that is also like pretty much everything you've already talked about, so relatable.
52:55
SPEAKER_01: And we all go through those kinds of fears, whatever the you know, the details of our experiences, like just all of that self-doubt of and I think one of the things we tend to forget is like we can figure it out so much of law.
53:08
SPEAKER_01: It's not like you're supposed to know absolutely everything.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: The key thing is can you figure it out?
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Can you look it up?
53:17
SPEAKER_01: Can you talk to someone?
53:18
SPEAKER_01: It's all the pieces of just how to all the ways to use our brains.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: And we have our brains, so we're good.
53:23
SPEAKER_02: And all of the trauma that happened when I was a baby lawyer doesn't mean and does not have to color this next experience.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: That was no, that's and you get to repaint.
53:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I had to put I had to put that down and be like, that was not a great experience, and like really traumatized baby Aaron, but like you get to choose differently and do differently, like that doesn't have to be the same story.
53:49
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: Tell me how you take care of yourself and care for your well-being.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Or how you or how you haven't.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: Well, like I said, my kids are so busy, it's kind of ridiculous.
54:06
SPEAKER_02: But I always try and at least like get a workout in the morning.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: I love to read, I love to be outside.
54:12
SPEAKER_02: So, like, even I mean, we're in Texas, it's so hot right now, but like I'll even like just go like stand outside for like 15, 20 minutes, just like look up at the sky, like let the sun touch my face.
54:23
SPEAKER_02: Um but I've I'm not in a season where I have a lot of extra like luxurious time to like do a whole ritual to make Erin feel better.
54:36
SPEAKER_02: But it's more just like the little things, like making sure in the moment that I'm like giving myself what I need.
54:42
SPEAKER_02: Like if I need to work out, if I need to just like turn everything off in the car and drive in silence, then I'll do that.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: Um but it's just you know, a constant you just have to constantly be self-aware, and you can forget too.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's you forget, you get busy and all that kind of stuff.
55:01
SPEAKER_02: But um I don't know, my kids kind of make it.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: They I'm in a season where I'm so fulfilled watching them do what they do, like nothing makes me happier than sitting in the stands watching them do their thing.
55:14
SPEAKER_02: I did not know that I would feel this way.
55:17
SPEAKER_02: Also, I have like a raging inner competitor that I knew that I had, but like she is out of control.
55:24
SPEAKER_02: Um like out of control in a way that I might like side note, might need therapy about.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, but like I'm like the mom crashing out in the sands.
55:35
SPEAKER_02: But it makes me so happy to watch them do what they do, and like that is what is making me tick right now.
55:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's just the reflection of watching them become strong women and knowing that like they've been watching me and my husband, you know what I mean, and then to like watch them become I don't know, like there's just something about this season that is just filling my soul like something, nothing else.
56:02
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
56:05
SPEAKER_01: If you had a magic wand and you could magically reach every lawyer and have them really understand one lesson that truly resonates with them, what would that be?
56:20
SPEAKER_02: I oh God I um I really think that it's the word and I think I've been talking about it all the time.
56:33
SPEAKER_02: And I just think that as lawyers, if we start using the word and like I want this and I want this and like okay, you can have that and and I think for such a long time, you know, we were just like, okay, like I I can have this one thing and then everything else, like wanting more makes me guilty, makes me feel guilty, like wanting more outside of this prestigious profession that pays me really well.
57:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, you want more outside of that?
57:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do want more.
57:05
SPEAKER_02: I am more, I want more outside of that, and I just think everybody needs to know that that's okay.
57:13
SPEAKER_02: And we should we should want more outside of that, of outside of all the things, because we're just these incredibly multifaceted people, and I think the more we pour into the other parts of us, the better it makes us even at our job.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, that was good.
57:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for this conversation.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: This was a blast.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: I really want to be somewhere uh in the same physical place with you so I can hug you at some point.
57:50
SPEAKER_01: This is such a blast.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: I want to go sit on the beach with a cocktail and put our toes in the sand, is what we really need to do.
57:56
SPEAKER_02: That's what I want to do.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: But I've got the sand.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I want to come to Costa Rica.
58:01
SPEAKER_02: She's in Costa Rica right now, you guys.
58:03
SPEAKER_02: Like she's in, she's living her best life.
58:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's very intentional.
58:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is um a hundred degrees in East Texas right now, and I am nowhere near sand.
58:14
SPEAKER_02: The only sun is red dirt.
58:16
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty toasty here too and humid, but there's a beach, you know, beach.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: So it and and beach and jungle and monkeys.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: Haven't seen too many monkeys, which I'm disappointed about, but we'll see more, I'm sure.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: And lizards, and the fact that I'm excited about lizards is very strange for anyone who's known me for a long time.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: Um but I'm delighted by that.
58:39
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
58:40
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
58:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm jealous I want to see the monkeys.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, me too.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: We've we've seen three, and usually there's like dozens and dozens, and we hear them, but they're hiding in the trees, and I'm waiting fairly impatiently.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll keep you posted.
58:57
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
58:58
SPEAKER_02: This was such a fun conversation.
59:00
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
59:01
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining me.