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Seven Laws of Teaching - #5 · The Grammar of Classical Education

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hello.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to The Grammar of Classical Education, a podcast that covers the foundations as well as the philosophical and theoretical ideas of classical learning in a user-friendly and, may I even say, interesting way.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Dr. Darlene Gomes from Leading to Wonder.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad that you could join me today.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, there has been a lot of information, and we've only covered law number one in John Milton Gregory's The Seven Laws of Learning.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as a way of quick review,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Law number one was the law of the teacher, which says that the teacher must know that which he would teach.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we kind of reversed that as he did saying that a teacher must teach that which he knows.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's talking about how it must come from deep within from the passion of knowledge within the teacher.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the deeper the knowledge of the teacher, the better the teacher can teach.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Law 2 makes a huge shift to the Law of the Learner.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, with this, you may be going, yes, it is not all my responsibility as the teacher.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hold on to that thought.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: The Law of the Learner says the learner must attend with interest
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: To the Facts or Truths to be Learned.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the question then comes up is, whose responsibility is that?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the easy way out is to look at it and say, well, the learner must attend.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Subject, learner, verb, must attend.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: But is it just the student's responsibility to attend?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is no.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is it in part the students?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Most definitely.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it is also the teacher's responsibility to attract that attention.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, attending is not just looking at it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: or looking like you're looking at it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: The one example that came to mind is I cannot be the only person who has been somewhere and thought I wonder what time it is and I lift up my arm or my phone to check the time put it down and then realize I have no idea what time it is.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what attending is not.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that you just look at something or look like you're looking at something is not attending.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: John Milton Gregory says that attending is mentally poised and eager to work.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are two ways he talks about teachers helping students to attend.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: One
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: The attention can be compelled or the attention can be attracted.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the best way to understand that.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: You as a teacher can either be a magnet or you can be a bulldozer.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: The compelling is the bulldozer.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: You say, obedience is commanded, you will sit up straight, you will look at me, what you will be getting is a very mechanical, in some cases, totally no pleasure for them.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's short lived, it's easily tired, and they show it.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: That is bulldozing for attentiveness.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: There is the attracting.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Not the compelling, but the attracting is the magnet.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: where it's coming from a desire inside the student.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: They are hungry.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're creating that hunger.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're enhancing the delight of learning.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: That actually will result in a more powerful endurance of attentiveness that will grow stronger.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I wish I could stand here and tell you this is a once-for-all thing.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Teachers want you can attract their attention.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: You are good to go for the whole lesson.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be totally fake because attracted attentiveness can drift into compelled.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: But be encouraged
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Compelled obedience can be encouraged into attracted attentiveness.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So just think of it as a bulldozing something or magnetically drawing it into range.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you have to do a little bit of both.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: You do have to require your students to sit up, to pay attention, to not lay with their head on their desk.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's the compelling part.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're compelling them to is compelling them, bulldozing them into the magnetic attraction.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And also you have to understand that because they're children, that attentiveness comes with degrees.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love how John Milton Gregory explains that eyes and ears can be lent, but interest can be given.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when you require your students to look at you and to listen to you, yes, you are getting attentiveness, but it's only lent to you until it is attractive to them, and then their interest will take over.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the reason that this is so important is another quote that he says, which is knowledge cannot be passed like some material substance from one person to another.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had to laugh.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Think of how amazing teaching would be at times if you could just say, okay, here's a piece of paper.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the information.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have now given it to you.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa, the job would be so easy.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not how teaching works.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as John Milton Gregory says, ideas can only be transmitted by being rethought.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what does it mean for it to be rethought?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what does it look like?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: What does it actually look like for a child to think the thoughts and then rethink them for themselves?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, his mind must work.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now again, sometimes that will require compelling bulldozing into that magnetic field.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: But then the second level of that is his mind must work under the control of the will.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: He has to actually give the effort.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where it does kind of slide out of teacher's control.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've had students before, I'm sure as I have, that you could literally be doing cartwheels in front of them and they are just not buying into the interest of it at all.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a different issue.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: but you've got to maybe do a little more bulldozing on that to get them closer to that magnetic draw.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So for a child it is his mind at work, under the control of the will, with a fixed aim and purpose.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now that does shift back more to the teacher's responsibility.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have to help these students see the value in what they're learning.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And actually that is pretty hard.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So law number two, the law of the learner is really a joint venture from both students and teachers.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: and it's truly the case of, as he says, it's not enough to look and listen.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's that lights are on but nobody's home scenario where you do have a student who is looking you square in the face and apparently they seem to be listening because they're not talking to anyone and there's not anything going on around them and they're not doodling but you can tell by looking at them
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lights are on, but nobody's home.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that really does come to then the teacher needs to put in the effort to do a little more of that compelling bulldozing to draw them toward or push them as it were toward the magnet of the attentiveness.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking is attached to the will.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what are teachers supposed to do?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: John Milton Gregory spends the remainder of this chapter giving so many amazing examples and ideas.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we are really just going to be able to scratch the surface of these.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, he's trying to help us see
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: What can we do as teachers to be more magnetic in our teaching?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things he states is that every one of their senses must be seen as a gateway that can be used.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I love how he explains it so perfectly when he says, the mind cannot refuse to heed that which appeals to the power of the senses.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now that means teaching vocally, keeping yourself from being monotone, playing with your speed, lowering or increasing volume, even
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Silence can be used as a way to gain their attention.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Playing with your pauses, gestures can be fabulous for this, as is positioning in the room.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you are stuck to a book behind a podium, you are not able
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: to use that sense of movement to gain their attention.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Also, there's visual things that you can use, whether they're pictures or display for maybe a PowerPoint, things that are visual, things they can touch, tactile, all of those senses, we have to understand are usable gateways, even things that they can smell.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: and taste.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, unfortunately, older students, sometimes there aren't as many fun things as you can do with that sense area, but be creative with it.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, another way you can get there, attract their attention, be more magnetic, is the shock of a new thought.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this actually you have to think of in advance.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what if you said,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: to a group of students who are newly learning place value.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: What if we no longer had number one?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: What would happen?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the conversation you could have.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: That would be amazing.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now what you have done is you have forced their little brains into an area of going, I don't know.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what do
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: People like to do when they don't know something.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: They don't like that void and want to fill it.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: and they may be so far off track with some of their answers that it will be humorous and you all will enjoy it but a shocking new thought can sometimes be just that attracted magnet to draw them in or that also kind of works with a question is the same in some cases as a startling thought
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, these don't just go questions out of the book.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're studying history, what country was the majority start blame for World War II?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, any kid can go flip a couple pages in a book and find the answer.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: More like, why didn't America get involved right away in World War II?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Will the answer possibly be somewhere in their book?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but they're not going to be able to find it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: You want those higher level questions.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: For example, in reading, Nada, what kind of hat did Billy wear?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: That I can find on page two.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I asked a question like, well, why did Billy wear that kind of hat?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: What if Billy would have wore a baseball hat instead of the snow cap?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the kind of questions, again, you're having to do them on your student's level and you have to think of them in advance.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now another element that John Milton Gregory works in is the idea of wetting their appetite.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you have any things like Costco or Sam's in your neighborhood but have you ever gone in and taken a sample of something and it was amazing to the point where you bought the whole container of it?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're anything like me you
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Get it Home and Realize That You Don't Really Like It All That Much.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that sample
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: was incredible.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we need to do to be magnetic teachers.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: We need to pique their imagination.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like their imagination is the gatekeeper of sorts to their intellect, to their intelligence.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So when you can get them thinking about something in a unique and a piqued interest way, they're going to want more.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: You've kicked up the ability of your magnet to draw them in.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing with whetting their appetite besides piquing their imagination is connected to something they know.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like in that last example when I said, have you ever had a sample at Costco or Sam's?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, probably most of you went, Oh, yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And immediately, that was something that you knew that you could then connect to it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Little people are needful of that even more than adults in some cases.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So connect it to things that they know.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this leads us to a big issue that he makes of it is so crucial that you know your students.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: You have to understand by their age level, what is their motive for attentiveness?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is it so that they can get more information?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is it so that they don't get in trouble?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that's driving them?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And also
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: really get to know their areas of interest.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I have had classes at times where two-thirds of my class were basketball players at one time.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of my examples came from basketball.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: For just about every subject I could somehow tie it into basketball because that was the interest of a good number of my class.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I have had years where I had a couple gymnastic people and so I would have to work hard to also get those kind of things and then you run into the little oddities like the year where I had three or four kids who liked sushi
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: That was a little more challenging, but if you can get to know their interest, you can outdraw them in.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Please, please remember that if it's only your interest and you haven't made it attractive to them, it's like trying to attract with the opposite side of the magnet.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're actually going to be pushing them farther away and not drawing them toward attentiveness.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, sometimes you'll find you just have to turn the magnet around.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You have to realize that little and often is the principle for littles, that there are going to be times where they are battling great monsters like apathy and distraction.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Please know when your poor dear little students are being attacked by these monsters, and I don't mean just your littlest of students.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you are a teacher of older students and you can tell when they have started to tune out, it is your responsibility as the teacher to play with that magnet a little bit, maybe even close the book up.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Get up, do something different.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do a quick review.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Anything to defeat those monsters.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Help them out.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Give them the ammunition to fight off the monsters.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Once the monsters have been vanquished, you can sometimes return to the information right away.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Other times you may find you just need to move on.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: But be aware that apathy, which is lack of interest, and distraction, which is divided interest, are monsters in these students' minds.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a lot of information, but as he did with law number one, John Milton Gregory gives rules to follow for law number two.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Again, we're going to go through these pretty quickly.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I encourage you to read them on your own and just pick out a couple to set as goals for yourself.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: The first one is something that I fought against
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: for probably the first 30 years of teaching.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that is do not begin teaching until you have the attention of every student.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: For me, this was so, so very hard.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I used to feel that if I started talking, they would settle in and listen.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: They were talking and they were taking their time getting in to listen to me.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to feel like I was wasting class time just standing there waiting for them.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: When I required them all to be attentive before I began, I actually was gaining class time.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now that moves in conjunction with a number two rule, pause when attention is interrupted and wait.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you are not losing time, you're actually gaining it.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Rule number three and several others apply to, as John Milton Gregory says, you don't exhaust wholly the pupil's power of attention.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Be attentive to when they're starting to just wane and you can see it if you're not too wrapped up in a textbook or too busy trying to think of what you're going to startling question ask them or anything like that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, number six is work to keep the interest high.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Please remember, this does not mean that you need to pull out the proverbial horse and pony show with every single lesson, but you need to make sure that you are making it attractive.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Rule 10, try to avoid distractions in the classroom.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a big issue in solid, like traditional classical schools, why we have limited things on our walls and limited stuff, because it does kind of help tone down everything so that the teacher becomes the main focus of the room.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's a classical model.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: It can work, but just be careful that if you do have things that it doesn't become overly distracting for your students around you.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Rule number 11 can be summed up in one idea.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Prepare your magnet before your teaching.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let yourself adjust as needed, but go in there with your magnet set and ready with questions, thoughts, uses of the senses.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And number 12 is plan for use of multiple senses when possible.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Number 13, I love this saying, true enthusiasm is contagious.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're excited about it, they will be excited about it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is natural.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And number 14, oddly he puts it as study the best use of hand and eye.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that is movement and how things look and how you can get students attention in different ways.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we can wrap up this section with the biggest violation, which is just letting lack of attentiveness slide.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: That is the death knell of learning.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot just assume that the students are going to be attentive.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: You have to possibly bulldoze a little bit, but definitely magnet a lot, compelling and attracting that attention.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just let it slide.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now again John Milton Gregory covers so much information in these chapters and I wanted to make available to you through the next couple of weeks probably I will organize it together
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: the opportunity for us to possibly for subscribers set up a zoom call where we can have a small group or even possibly one-on-one meeting just to answer some of your more specific questions
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you'd like to just send me your questions, and I will put out a different podcast and an addendum with some of those questions being answered.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can do that at darlene at leading to wonder.com
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's Darlene at leading to wonder.com.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you're not getting overwhelmed.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that you're encouraged and realizing that yes, this is a mighty job before you, but it is so, so worth the effort.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you are
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: All In with Classical Ed, or you're just kind of curious, or even you just want to be a better teacher.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll stick around and join us for this next podcast.
• 27:38
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• 27:47
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• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: To learn more about me and Leading to Wonder, you can visit my website at
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: leading to wonder.com no spaces.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, to reach out to me directly with questions or comments or even for information regarding in-house or virtual teacher training workshops, feel free to email me at darlene at leading to wonder.com.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Have an amazing week, and remember, as E.B.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: White said, always be on the lookout for the presence of wonder.