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Building Relationships - Kinda Judgy | Shannon Popkin · CIAM Radio

0:01
S1: He is a judge who judges. But what he most
0:03
S1: wants us to know about himself is this mercy like
0:07
S1: that is what can soften our hearts like that's what
0:10
S1: will change us, that will change us from the inside out.
0:13
S1: Is encountering God's mercy afresh.
0:19
S2: This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
0:22
S2: the New York Times best seller, The Five Love Languages.
0:25
S2: What is one of the main criticisms of Christians today?
0:28
S2: Anything come to mind? If you thought of the word judgmental,
0:32
S2: you'd be on to something that our guest believes is
0:35
S2: important for us to deal with. Her name is Shannon Popkin.
0:38
S2: She's the author of our featured resource at Building relationships.us.
0:43
S2: It is aptly titled Kind of Judgy Finding Mercy for
0:47
S2: myself and Others in six stories of the Bible. You
0:51
S2: can find out more at Building relationships.us. And Gary, this
0:55
S2: is one of those issues we see both outside and
0:58
S2: inside the church, don't we?
1:00
S3: We do. Chris and I don't know. I think a
1:03
S3: lot of it has to do with the fact that
1:04
S3: we are all self-centered, and we know that we're right
1:08
S3: about everything. And if the other person doesn't do or
1:12
S3: say the way we think they ought to, then we
1:16
S3: we judge them. We, you know, we put them down.
1:18
S3: And we may not verbalize it, but in our mind,
1:21
S3: you know, we judge them. Uh, of course, God sees
1:24
S3: the heart of a person. We don't. We just see
1:26
S3: the outward things. But I'm excited about our program today
1:30
S3: because I think this book and I and I'm glad
1:32
S3: to talk about this topic with Shannon, it's going to
1:35
S3: help a lot of people because all of us need
1:38
S3: help in terms of how do we handle that natural sense.
1:41
S3: We have to be judgmental.
1:42
S2: Yes. Well, let's meet her. Shannon Popkin is an author,
1:45
S2: Bible teacher, host of the Live Like It's True podcast.
1:49
S2: She's been married to her husband, Ken for 30 years,
1:52
S2: and they have three adult children and a new daughter
1:55
S2: in law. They live in Grand Rapids, Michigan are featured resource.
1:58
S2: Today is her book kind of judgy Finding Mercy for
2:02
S2: myself and others in six stories in the Bible. Again,
2:05
S2: you can find out more at Building relationships.us.
2:09
S3: Well, Shannon, welcome to Building Relationships.
2:12
S1: Thank you so much. It's great to be with you.
2:15
S3: Before we get into the topic for today, tell us
2:18
S3: about your backstory, how you met and fell in love
2:22
S3: with Ken and a little bit about your family.
2:26
S1: Well, I was just telling you, Gary, before we started
2:29
S1: recording that I got married in 1995, which your book,
2:35
S1: The Love Languages, came out just before that. So I
2:38
S1: think it was pretty much required reading for any Christian
2:41
S1: couple or any, maybe, maybe any couple at all. Um,
2:44
S1: at that point, and I do remember us talking about
2:47
S1: our love languages in our relationship, but I met my husband.
2:50
S1: I'm a blind date statistic. And so we, we went
2:54
S1: to the same church, but I was working up in
2:57
S1: the youth group and my husband was working in the
2:59
S1: basement with the fourth and fifth graders, so we didn't
3:01
S1: really cross paths. And then, uh, a mutual friend set
3:04
S1: us up on a blind date. And I mean, I,
3:08
S1: I just immediately liked him. He was, he was, um,
3:12
S1: you know, he was handsome. He loved the Lord. I
3:15
S1: could tell he was a good man. But I think
3:16
S1: what really made me fall in love with him was
3:19
S1: his humor. He made me laugh, and he still today
3:22
S1: makes me laugh. He just made me laugh this morning,
3:24
S1: reading me something funny from a book he was reading.
3:26
S1: So we have that in common and I'm just so,
3:28
S1: so thankful to be doing life. We've been married for
3:31
S1: 30 years now. So so thankful.
3:34
S3: Well, congratulations. Now you have children.
3:37
S1: Yes, we have three grown children. One is married, so
3:40
S1: we have a new daughter in law. And we're so
3:42
S1: grateful for all all of our kids. And they're all
3:46
S1: love the Lord. And we just couldn't be more happy
3:49
S1: about that.
3:50
S3: Well that's exciting. Well, let's, uh, looking at your podcast
3:54
S3: and the things you've written. You really believe in the
3:57
S3: power of studying the Bible. Why is that so important
4:02
S3: to you?
4:03
S1: Well, I think it's so important to read the Bible,
4:07
S1: not just to know stuff. You know, it's not just
4:09
S1: so that we know things, but it's so that we
4:11
S1: know God. Uh, A.W. Tozer, I think, says whatever comes
4:15
S1: into our mind when we think about God, that's the
4:17
S1: most important thing about us. And, and God wants us
4:21
S1: to know him, like to have a personal relationship with him.
4:24
S1: And he revealed himself in this story. You know, this Bible,
4:27
S1: the Bible has this overarching story. And so through the story,
4:31
S1: it's like we come to know new things about God.
4:34
S1: We there are things that we learn in the New
4:35
S1: Testament that we didn't know about him in the Old Testament.
4:38
S1: And it's like this progressive thing where God just has
4:42
S1: more and more to say about himself and those who
4:46
S1: are on the outside looking in. I think sometimes they
4:48
S1: see God. Uh, you know, they, they think they can
4:51
S1: put him on trial or make demands of God. But
4:54
S1: those of us who open the Bible, it just helps
4:57
S1: to reorient us and to help us see things from
5:00
S1: this top down perspective, to see it from the perspective
5:03
S1: of our creator. And I think what we find, like
5:06
S1: if I had to boil it down, um, to what
5:09
S1: we find about him, this one thing that I see
5:12
S1: in God as I read the Bible cover to cover
5:15
S1: is he is so merciful. That's what he wants us
5:17
S1: to know about himself. And that's what he wants us
5:20
S1: to respond to.
5:22
S3: I think you're right about that. Have you seen through
5:24
S3: the years, as you have taught, you know, from the
5:27
S3: scriptures on various topics, uh, have you seen people's lives
5:31
S3: changed in, in when they when they discover God's perspective
5:35
S3: on things?
5:37
S1: Absolutely. Yeah. It's so the Bible is so orienting, right?
5:41
S1: Or reorienting. And I with my, uh, podcast and my
5:46
S1: books and Bible studies, I like to focus on the
5:48
S1: stories of the Bible. I'm just taken with story. And
5:51
S1: I love the way that stories move us. And the Bible,
5:54
S1: you know, has it's like 43%, I believe story or narrative.
5:58
S1: And so I see God working through story to access
6:04
S1: our hearts. And so in the same way like that,
6:06
S1: you and I might read a newspaper newspaper article and
6:09
S1: just kind of skim the content and then go to
6:11
S1: a movie about that same thing. And we cry at
6:15
S1: the theater when we weren't as moved by just reading
6:18
S1: the content, the information. Um, I think that's why God
6:21
S1: includes stories. I mean, he's the one who created us
6:23
S1: and he created us to be these story driven creatures. Um,
6:27
S1: but yeah, as I see people like it's my passion to,
6:30
S1: to invite people to open the Bible with me and
6:33
S1: drink in these stories and then to let the stories
6:36
S1: impact our hearts and so that they move us to
6:39
S1: live like the story is true. So I love watching
6:43
S1: God transform people as they encounter him and in his Word.
6:47
S3: Yeah. Well, you've certainly used stories in a very positive
6:50
S3: way in this book. So let's talk about our topic.
6:53
S3: The main criticism of Christians by the outside world is
6:57
S3: that they are judgmental. Many times we heard this you're
7:01
S3: just judgmental. Uh ah, they say, or as you say,
7:06
S3: use the word judgy. They're judgy. Yeah. Uh, do you agree?
7:10
S3: And how did your experience growing up in the church
7:13
S3: maybe shape your own perspective on this topic?
7:16
S1: Yes, I think it's, it's a little bit easier on the,
7:20
S1: you know, the ego to say that I'm judgy versus judgmental.
7:22
S1: But I think, I think we're all kind of judgy,
7:25
S1: aren't we? I just think, I mean, look at how
7:27
S1: people respond to someone that they think is wrong in
7:31
S1: our culture today. You know, social media in particular, there's
7:34
S1: just so much finger pointing. Um, and we can be
7:38
S1: so polarized and reactive to others. You know, we're just
7:41
S1: so convinced that we're right. Um, and particularly in the church,
7:46
S1: you know, I do think that church people can be
7:50
S1: particularly judgy. I grew up in a fundamentalist denomination, and
7:54
S1: I have this very distinct memory of being on a
7:58
S1: bus with some teens and processing the news. We had
8:02
S1: just heard this news that a boy from our youth
8:04
S1: group had invited a girl from our school to a movie,
8:09
S1: a horror of all horrors, you know, a movie. And
8:11
S1: we we could not have told you why that was wrong. But,
8:14
S1: you know, there was just this righteous indignation burning in
8:17
S1: our teenage hearts. And, you know, I think that it's
8:20
S1: that that moral superiority that the world is bristling at.
8:26
S1: And I think the world is right to some degree.
8:28
S1: You know, I think they're right because we are the
8:30
S1: ones who are called to be in the world, but
8:33
S1: not of the world. Jesus says we're to be merciful
8:36
S1: as our father in heaven is merciful. And so this
8:39
S1: mercy that we have received, it's meant to reshape our
8:42
S1: our hearts and change us to be people who reflect
8:46
S1: our father.
8:47
S3: Yeah. Well, we know that in the Christian faith, of course,
8:51
S3: we have different denominations. Do you think that that all
8:55
S3: the different denominations of the Christian faith, that it increases
9:00
S3: your chance of being judgy? Because we do disagree on
9:03
S3: different things. You know, the different denominations?
9:06
S1: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we're, you know,
9:11
S1: the denominations have to do with looking at scripture and
9:15
S1: reading different parts differently. Um, we're, we're persuaded in different ways.
9:20
S1: And so I don't think the denominations are necessarily wrong. Um,
9:24
S1: but I think that the way we think about other
9:27
S1: denominations can be absolutely wrong because, you know, we're just
9:31
S1: so convinced that we're right. Um, and as we should be,
9:34
S1: you know, if we're persuaded in a particular way, but,
9:36
S1: but we have all of this division and strife and
9:39
S1: church splits and everything. And it's not based on core
9:43
S1: doctrine always. You know, a lot of times it's these
9:45
S1: secondary tertiary issues, like really not important things. And we're
9:50
S1: convinced we're right and they're wrong. And again, inside the church,
9:53
S1: we have this moral superiority. You know, we're sizing each
9:57
S1: other up. We make snap judgments about different people and
9:59
S1: different denominations. And this is the body of Christ, right?
10:03
S1: And so I don't know, Gary. I mean, I get
10:06
S1: to serve at a lot of different denominations. And what
10:09
S1: I do, you know, because I'm a speaker, I'm an
10:11
S1: outsider coming in and I just think, you know, if
10:16
S1: we could get inside each other's doors and just get
10:20
S1: to know one another, what I notice is like, man, y'all,
10:23
S1: y'all are pretty great. And I think that the enemy
10:26
S1: is the one using like this pride to create our
10:29
S1: division and our judgy attitudes toward one another.
10:31
S4: Yeah, yeah.
10:33
S3: You know, I've had the same experience because I speak
10:35
S3: in all kind of churches, you know, and I'm just
10:39
S3: encouraged when I see the differences in the worship styles
10:44
S3: and other things that we may disagree on, but, uh, it's,
10:49
S3: it's great that there is diversity.
10:52
S4: You know? Yeah.
10:53
S1: Yes. So thankful.
10:55
S3: Well, Shannon, let's talk about how judgment shows up in
10:58
S3: everyday life. And do you think that judgment is caught
11:02
S3: from our parents or from others around us? Uh, what
11:06
S3: are your thoughts on that?
11:08
S1: Yeah. Well, I think we have to differentiate between what
11:11
S1: judging is and isn't. I mean, judging is about determining
11:15
S1: right from wrong. And there are lines clearly drawn by
11:19
S1: God between right and wrong. Um, and so, you know,
11:22
S1: like it's not wrong for a parent to teach a
11:25
S1: child like this is wrong. Deuteronomy tells us that we're
11:29
S1: to train our children and to teach them diligently. You know,
11:32
S1: when we're at home or walking, by the way, or
11:35
S1: lying down and rising up. So it's our job to
11:37
S1: teach our kids right from wrong. And, and I mean,
11:40
S1: judging is basically saying, well, that person is wrong. But
11:44
S1: there are a lot of ways that we judge wrongly.
11:47
S1: And I think behind, you know, we've in our world today,
11:50
S1: we've got like these different megaphones where one person is,
11:54
S1: is yelling, you are wrong. And the other is like,
11:57
S1: you are judging. So we've got all these battles going on.
12:00
S1: And yeah, I think our kids are, are they're noticing that,
12:03
S1: you know, we are discipling our children, particularly when we're
12:07
S1: not intentionally discipling our children. We're, we're showing them the
12:11
S1: truth about right and wrong. And so as we have these,
12:16
S1: these attitudes of superiority and this condescending sort of judgment. Yeah. Unfortunately,
12:22
S1: our kids are learning. They're learning about that. And, and
12:27
S1: so we, we do have to be mindful, like, what
12:29
S1: are they picking up in not just what we say,
12:32
S1: but in our attitudes. And so, yeah, I just think
12:35
S1: being mindful of the finger of judgment is always pointing
12:38
S1: down with this condescending superiority and, um, you know, lifting
12:43
S1: ourselves up in the process and that. And so it's
12:46
S1: the pride component. That's what makes this wrong. That's what
12:49
S1: we have to be mindful of, you know, as we
12:51
S1: are modeling to our children, what are they picking up
12:55
S1: in the ways that we talk about people who are wrong,
12:58
S1: you know, whether it's on TV or the neighbor or
13:01
S1: in church, you know, that person. Can you believe, you know,
13:04
S1: those sorts of those sorts of attitudes where we are
13:09
S1: wrongly passing on this pride to our kids?
13:13
S4: Yeah.
13:14
S3: I think we fail to recognize sometimes that our model
13:18
S3: is having a tremendous impact on our children.
13:21
S4: Yes.
13:22
S3: You know, we can tell them one thing, but they
13:23
S3: see us do something different. And so they, they, they
13:26
S3: follow more by what we see, what they see. So
13:29
S3: what about, uh, this kind of turn it on the
13:32
S3: other side? What about when we feel judged by our
13:36
S3: mother in law or our boss or an adult child.
13:41
S3: Or maybe a friend at church. Uh. What's our natural
13:44
S3: response to that and why?
13:47
S1: Well, I think our natural response when we feel judged
13:50
S1: is to judge right back. Right. We just have these sensors,
13:54
S1: these feelers out for any judgment that we can find
13:57
S1: in someone's, you know, especially in these family relationships, you know,
14:01
S1: a mother in law or a child, you know, someone
14:05
S1: in our family. Like we can just sense their judgment.
14:08
S1: And I can tell you right now, my, my adult
14:10
S1: kids will say, mom, I feel like you're judging me.
14:13
S1: And I'm like, I'm not you. I didn't say anything.
14:16
S1: And they're like, I can just see it in your face.
14:18
S1: And so I.
14:19
S4: Think.
14:20
S1: You know, it's like, whatever is in our heart, it
14:22
S1: is going to, it is going to be revealed in our,
14:25
S1: in our actions toward one another and our reactions. And
14:28
S1: so when we feel judged, I think what we want
14:31
S1: to do is we want to judge right back. And that's.
14:34
S1: And so then we judge, and then they feel judged
14:36
S1: and they want to judge right back. And it creates
14:38
S1: this whole reactive kind of system where we're pulling away
14:42
S1: from one another, we're pointing fingers and we're listing out,
14:46
S1: you know, we play court in our heads and we
14:48
S1: list out all the ways that I'm right and she's
14:50
S1: wrong and she shouldn't have judged me and all, you know,
14:53
S1: it's just it can really snowball quickly. And so I think,
14:56
S1: why do we, why do we do this? Like, why
14:58
S1: do we, when we feel judged, why do we want
15:00
S1: to judge right back? I think we get these little
15:03
S1: judgy boosts of pride, you know, like they're, they're kind
15:07
S1: of putting me down, you know, the finger of judgment
15:08
S1: points down and I feel like I'm being put down.
15:11
S1: And so I want to judge them right back because
15:12
S1: I want to lift myself up. It's like we feel better. Uh,
15:16
S1: it reminds me of when my daughter was about four.
15:19
S1: She would come downstairs after after bed and she'd be
15:23
S1: standing on the stairway and saying, well, Coley got out
15:27
S1: of bed again, you know, her two year old brother.
15:29
S1: And I would look at her and I'd say, uh, oh, sweetie,
15:32
S1: and what about you? Because here she is. She's out
15:34
S1: of bed to tell me that he's out of bed.
15:37
S1: And I think that's when we're when we're like pointing
15:40
S1: out the errors in others, it. We don't have to
15:43
S1: think about the own our own errors, and I think.
15:46
S1: So how we need to solve this is not by
15:49
S1: reacting in pride and judgment. But, you know, just let's
15:52
S1: just use some humility in our relationships. I think that
15:55
S1: would heal so many things, wouldn't it?
15:58
S3: I agree with you. You know, I think the question
16:01
S3: is because it is natural for us to come back
16:05
S3: with a judgmental statement. How do we break that pattern?
16:10
S4: Yes.
16:11
S3: And that's really what this book is all about. So
16:14
S3: we're going to talk more about that later. Now, inside
16:17
S3: and outside the church are people who recoil at the
16:22
S3: idea of God being a judge and a judge who
16:27
S3: might actually send someone to everlasting punishment. A lot of churches,
16:33
S3: you don't hear that other churches, you hear a lot
16:35
S3: about that. And so what do you say about that?
16:38
S3: When people are criticizing God for being too judgmental?
16:42
S1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we sometimes feel that
16:45
S1: we are in a position to judge God. And like
16:48
S1: I was talking about earlier, if you don't know God,
16:50
S1: if you're like an outsider looking in, I can understand
16:54
S1: why you'd feel that way, you know, and just recoil
16:57
S1: at a God who would would judge, you know, eternal judgment.
17:01
S1: That doesn't that seem pretty severe? Uh, it sort of
17:04
S1: reminds me of the people in Jericho, you know, who were, um,
17:09
S1: they see Israel camping across the river and they're coming
17:12
S1: against them. And so what do those people do? They
17:13
S1: just boarded their city up. They have these double walls
17:16
S1: and they feel threatened. And so they're hiding behind their
17:19
S1: walls and they're putting up their, you know, their, their doors.
17:23
S1: And they're, that's how they're reacting to this army. And,
17:27
S1: and I think, you know, that's, that's just our response
17:30
S1: throughout history to bristle at the idea that God is
17:33
S1: the judge, that he is the ruler over heaven and earth,
17:36
S1: and that we answer to him. But in that story
17:39
S1: of Jericho, here's what God finds remarkable. There is this
17:43
S1: woman in the city who I mean, she's just part
17:46
S1: of Jericho, just like everybody else. She has sinned against God,
17:49
S1: just like everybody else. And yet, you know, her whole
17:52
S1: city is boarded up in defiance to him. And yet she,
17:55
S1: the one woman, she cries out for mercy. She's like
17:57
S1: waving her little white flag, like saying, can I switch sides?
18:01
S1: And so, I mean, God says yes. Like his response
18:05
S1: to the one who wants mercy is this overwhelming? Yes.
18:10
S1: And so, I mean, it's interesting because she's not yet
18:12
S1: following God's ways. She's a prostitute. The only difference between
18:15
S1: her and everybody else in that city is that she
18:18
S1: is the one asking for mercy. And so, and the
18:22
S1: other thing I think is so interesting about that story
18:24
S1: is if you if you back up and you consider
18:25
S1: the whole story of God's army marching and taking the city.
18:28
S1: Like you can scoop out that part about Rahab and
18:32
S1: these these spies who come, you know, and stay at her.
18:35
S1: You can you can take that whole story out. And like,
18:38
S1: the plot is unaffected. And so why is it included?
18:41
S1: I think this is what God wants us to know.
18:44
S1: He wants for us to know that in a world
18:46
S1: filled with people who are defying God, who say, you know,
18:49
S1: how dare you judge me? The one person who will
18:52
S1: turn and say, but can I have your mercy? His
18:55
S1: answer is yes. And so he just he's watching. He's
18:58
S1: waiting for that one who cries out for mercy. And
19:00
S1: I just, I want that to be me. And I
19:02
S1: want that to be anyone who's listening right now.
19:04
S3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think sometimes people are just, you know,
19:08
S3: judgmental in terms of God sending people to destruction, you know,
19:12
S3: and that kind of thing. But in reality, God is
19:16
S3: went out of his way to give us a chance
19:20
S3: not to be separated from him, but to have a
19:23
S3: relationship with him. And so that's, that's wonderful.
19:26
S1: That is what we see in the Bible. Like the
19:28
S1: story of the flood is only six chapters in, you know.
19:31
S1: So he is the judge who judges. But why is
19:34
S1: the story so long? And why are we still waiting
19:37
S1: on the story's conclusion? It's because of his mercy, his
19:40
S1: his extension of mercy. He's yes, he will respond in judgment,
19:44
S1: but he's like, but first I want to show you mercy.
19:47
S1: I think that's what he leads with. That's who he is.
19:50
S1: That's what he wants us to know about himself.
19:52
S4: Yeah, yeah.
19:54
S3: Yeah. My observation is that those of us who have
19:57
S3: been around the church a long time are often the
20:02
S3: quickest to judge other people's sins. Uh, talk about that
20:06
S3: phenomena and what can help soften our hearts. Uh, because
20:10
S3: God has a soft heart.
20:12
S4: Mhm.
20:13
S1: Yeah. It's it's interesting, isn't it, that those of us around,
20:17
S1: you know, we feel most comfortable in the church and
20:19
S1: I put myself in that category. Gary, I feel more
20:22
S1: comfortable in a Bible study group than I do at
20:24
S1: a bar. And a lot of people feel exactly the opposite.
20:27
S1: But so I'm, I'm talking to the other church people
20:29
S1: here and saying like, yeah, we do. We tend to
20:34
S1: be the quickest to, to dispense condemnation and judgment. We
20:38
S1: feel so like, I think it's like we, we have
20:41
S1: this attitude of, I'm so scandalized by sin, you know,
20:44
S1: I can't believe they did that. I can't believe she
20:47
S1: wore that or she said that or whatever it is. And, and, um,
20:51
S1: I think behind all of that judgment, we don't see
20:54
S1: our pride, but other people do. I have a friend
20:57
S1: who was in a prayer group and she loved this
21:01
S1: prayer group. And they were intercessors for their church and
21:03
S1: their neighborhood and their community. And, and she told me
21:07
S1: that she had stopped going. And I was like, why
21:09
S1: you loved that group. And she's like, well, it's just like,
21:12
S1: they're the women in the group. Many times the topic
21:15
S1: of homosexuality has come come up. And she said, they're
21:19
S1: just like clutching their pearls and they're outraged. And they
21:22
S1: have all this moral, you know, they just can't believe.
21:24
S1: And she's like, here I am grieving because my son
21:27
S1: is living this openly gay lifestyle. And I can't tell
21:32
S1: them that. And I just think, oh, my heart broke
21:34
S1: for her because I think, you know, around our tables
21:36
S1: of church ladies, church people, we have this attitude of,
21:40
S1: I never have, I never would, I never could. And
21:43
S1: yet I think we need to be mindful of the
21:45
S1: one who is saying, yeah, but what if I have,
21:48
S1: you know, what is God's heart toward me? And, um,
21:52
S1: I think in our moral superiority, we think that we're
21:54
S1: representing God, you know, because God's the one who says
21:57
S1: that this is wrong, but that is not the God
21:59
S1: that we meet in the Bible. Yes. Like I said,
22:02
S1: he is a judge who judges, but what he most
22:04
S1: wants us to know about himself is this mercy. And
22:08
S1: so that should just be so evident in our interactions.
22:13
S1: And I do think like that is what can soften
22:16
S1: our hearts like that. That's what will change us, that
22:19
S1: will change us from the inside out. is encountering God's
22:22
S1: mercy afresh.
22:23
S4: Yeah, yeah.
22:25
S3: So maybe one of our prayers should be, God help
22:28
S3: me to see other people the way Jesus sees them.
22:32
S4: Yes.
22:33
S1: He died for them. He died for me. Right?
22:36
S3: Yeah, absolutely. Well, here's the biggest question of the hour.
22:40
S3: When Jesus said, do not judge. What was he actually addressing?
22:48
S1: Right. Yeah. Like I said, I think there's a lot
22:50
S1: of confusion about that. We've got people saying, you know,
22:54
S1: you are wrong. And others are saying, do not judge,
22:56
S1: as if like you're not allowed to say that something
23:00
S1: is wrong. Uh, you know, like that the Bible prohibits
23:03
S1: us from saying that something is wrong. That's our cultural
23:05
S1: moment that we're living in right now. It's wrong to
23:08
S1: say that someone is wrong. And so I think, you know,
23:12
S1: discernment begins with letting God determine right from wrong. And so,
23:16
S1: you know, when when Jesus said, do not judge, here's
23:19
S1: what he wasn't saying. We're not judging when we parent
23:23
S1: our children and teach them this is sin. We're not
23:25
S1: judging when we, you know, confront someone who is in
23:29
S1: perpetual sin. That's what Matthew 18 teaches us to do.
23:32
S1: You know, we're not judging when we say that the
23:35
S1: Bible is the clear, authoritative word of God. And so,
23:40
S1: you know, as believers, we're not called to ignore sin
23:42
S1: or redefine sin or certainly not celebrate sin. So what
23:46
S1: does Jesus mean then when he's saying, do not judge?
23:49
S1: I think it's a command, but it's also a warning
23:52
S1: because it's it's followed with all this stuff about hypocrisy.
23:56
S1: You know, it's in the sermon of the mountain on
23:58
S1: the Mount and Jesus is talking about, he says, do
24:00
S1: not judge lest you be judged. So there's this warning.
24:04
S1: And and then he talks about this whole log and
24:07
S1: speck in the eye thing. If our listeners have heard
24:10
S1: that section, it's like, get the log that's sticking out
24:13
S1: of your eye, get that out so that you can
24:15
S1: see clearly to get the speck out of somebody else's eye.
24:18
S1: But the point when Jesus was saying this, he wasn't saying,
24:21
S1: get that log out of your eye so that you
24:25
S1: can close your eyes to somebody else's sin. It's so
24:27
S1: it's so that you can do this, this sin removal.
24:31
S1: And so the point is like, what is that log
24:33
S1: sticking out of our eye? I think it's most often
24:36
S1: it's our our hypocrisy and our pride. It's like, you know,
24:39
S1: we don't even see how wrong we are. And I'm
24:43
S1: just picturing, you know, the mom who's wagging her finger
24:45
S1: in the in the face of her lying child or, um,
24:48
S1: you know, the wife who's rolling her eyes at her
24:50
S1: husband because he's late again or whatever it is. Um,
24:53
S1: and so these people that were preaching at, they're backing away.
24:57
S1: And that's what Jesus is warning against. He's like, let's
25:01
S1: be done with the hypocrisy of the judging. Uh, let's,
25:06
S1: let's see clearly and get these blind spots out of
25:09
S1: our eyes.
25:12
S2: This is the building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
25:15
S2: He's the New York Times best selling author of The
25:18
S2: Five Love Languages. Find out more about today's programme topic
25:21
S2: at Building relationships.us. We have great resources there for you.
25:26
S2: A list of seminar locations coming up for Doctor Chapman.
25:29
S2: You can hear a podcast of the program and find
25:32
S2: out about Shannon Popkin's book, Kind of judgy Finding Mercy
25:35
S2: for myself and others in six stories of the Bible.
25:39
S2: Just go to building relationships.us, or you can find us
25:42
S2: at five Love languages.com. And if you have a question
25:45
S2: for Doctor Chapman that you'd like to hear an answer to,
25:48
S2: you can call us. And our listener line is easy
25:51
S2: to remember 86642. For Gary, leave your message and you
25:57
S2: might hear an answer on a future Dear Gary broadcast
25:59
S2: at the end of the month. Again, call us at
26:02
S2: 186642 for Gary and Shannon. What Gary just asked you
26:08
S2: is the number one question. I think because we I
26:11
S2: hear this so much in the culture and you know,
26:13
S2: pointed at Christians judge not, lest ye be judged. Uh.
26:17
S2: So how does a person who has that finger pointed
26:20
S2: at them says you shouldn't be judging? How do they
26:24
S2: respond to the person making the accusation? Especially if that
26:28
S2: person is outside the Christian community.
26:32
S1: Yeah. So you're being told you can't judge. You're not
26:36
S1: allowed to judge, right? This is isn't this your command?
26:40
S1: And I think, you know, our response is, well, judge,
26:45
S1: good judgment is found in deferring to God. And so
26:48
S1: it's not me saying that this is right or wrong.
26:51
S1: This is God, and I'm deferring to him. And my
26:54
S1: attitude toward someone who has crossed that line, my instruction
26:59
S1: is to say, yeah, I, I too have judged or
27:03
S1: I too have crossed. There is no line that God
27:05
S1: has drawn that I, I have not crossed. And so
27:08
S1: I need to have this attitude that is not this Proud,
27:13
S1: you know, superiority. And if you're sensing that in me,
27:16
S1: that would be wrong. And that is what I'm being
27:19
S1: warned against in these verses. Don't judge, uh, or I'm
27:23
S1: going to be judged for my hypocrisy. Right? Uh, and
27:26
S1: Jesus went on to say that, um, for, for you
27:30
S1: will be judged by the same standard with which you
27:33
S1: judge others and you will be measured by the same
27:36
S1: measure you use. And so when you're, when you're out
27:40
S1: there measuring the wrongs of other people, like picture, you've
27:43
S1: got a scoop in your hand, you know, and you're measuring,
27:46
S1: let's make the scoop measuring mercy, not judgment. Okay. And
27:50
S1: so let's say you're, you're dispensing of mercy. And you
27:54
S1: see this person and they have crossed God's line, uh,
27:57
S1: whatever your size scoop, if you've got a big gallon
27:59
S1: size scoop for your mercy and you're just pouring that
28:03
S1: mercy into their lives, well, then you're going to receive
28:05
S1: back that sort of mercy from the Lord. But if
28:08
S1: you've got a little like quarter of a teaspoon sized
28:11
S1: scoop of mercy. Well, then that's what you're going to
28:14
S1: get back from the Lord. And so this is I mean,
28:16
S1: these are some serious warnings that Jesus has given us. And,
28:19
S1: and I think his intention behind it is like, we're
28:23
S1: we're not to judge people as if we too have
28:25
S1: not sinned. Uh, and I think, you know, I mean,
28:28
S1: if we want to look at the best model of all,
28:31
S1: we can look at Jesus. How did Jesus treat people
28:33
S1: who had crossed the lines that he clearly had drawn? Uh,
28:37
S1: think about that story where Simon the Pharisee is seated
28:41
S1: at the table and the sinful woman comes up behind Jesus,
28:44
S1: and she's weeping at his feet. And Simon has this
28:47
S1: sort of like, judgy attitude. You know, he's holding court
28:50
S1: in his head and he's like looking at her, the sinner.
28:52
S1: He talks about her. Like, if Jesus knew what sort
28:55
S1: of woman that she is. And so by implication, she's
28:59
S1: a different sort than him. And how does Jesus respond?
29:03
S1: You know, we get the sense that Simon would like
29:05
S1: for a judgy or Jesus, you know, for Jesus to
29:08
S1: just be swatting her and say, get away from me.
29:10
S1: And yet Jesus doesn't he? He receives this woman, and
29:14
S1: then he corrects a Simon for his judgy attitude. And
29:18
S1: he tells the story about two people who are up
29:22
S1: to their necks in in sin debt. One of them
29:25
S1: has more, but the other has less. And so and
29:28
S1: what he's doing in this story is he's he's telling
29:31
S1: the story of Simon and the prostitute. He's putting the
29:34
S1: Pharisee and the prostitute together in the same story. Yes.
29:38
S1: One has less sin than the other, but they're both
29:40
S1: drowning in their sin debt. And they need someone to,
29:42
S1: to pay for them. And Jesus is like, that's me.
29:45
S1: I've come, I've come to pay for for the sin debt.
29:48
S1: And so this affects the way that we see one
29:50
S1: another when we realize like, I'm just like her, you know,
29:53
S1: maybe she has more sin or less sin, but it
29:56
S1: should change our attitude toward other people and, um, reframe
30:02
S1: the way that we see them and the way that
30:03
S1: we see ourselves.
30:05
S3: Okay. So let's say That somebody, you know, maybe in
30:10
S3: the family, maybe out of the family, maybe a Christian,
30:12
S3: maybe not a Christian, but they break what God said
30:17
S3: more than once in the Bible. Don't get drunk.
30:22
S4: Mhm.
30:23
S3: How do you start a conversation? What would you say?
30:27
S4: Mhm.
30:28
S1: Yeah. Well, this is a command of the Lord, isn't it?
30:31
S1: So I think it makes a difference. Is this person
30:33
S1: a believer or not? Right. Um, and so if they're
30:36
S1: an unbeliever, uh, you know, we can't expect that they
30:40
S1: would live their life by God's commands. You know, any differently,
30:44
S1: but we can call them to that. We can say,
30:46
S1: look like this is going to destroy your life and
30:49
S1: you need Jesus. Right. You need that. He's primary. He's
30:53
S1: what you need. And so I think the conversation could
30:55
S1: go that way. But if it's a fellow believer, like
30:58
S1: it's your husband or your child and, and they, they
31:02
S1: follow Jesus. And yet this is, um, clearly a way
31:05
S1: that they have crossed one of God's lines. Lines. I
31:08
S1: think a great way to start the conversation is I
31:11
S1: to fall short in this area. You know I am excessive.
31:15
S1: Maybe not with alcohol, but with. With me it would
31:18
S1: be sugar. I I'd eat too much sugar. I'm. You know,
31:21
S1: there are other ways that I'm excessive and both of us.
31:24
S1: What we need is to align with God if we're
31:27
S1: going to flourish and we need his help to do that. Uh,
31:29
S1: you know, can I help you? How can I be
31:31
S1: a good support to you in this way? Uh, and
31:34
S1: just so calling to mind, like, I think coming alongside
31:37
S1: with a hand around the shoulders instead of the finger
31:39
S1: pointing down. We get a lot more, a lot more
31:42
S1: mileage out of that. But I think before we even
31:45
S1: have that conversation to back up and deal with our
31:48
S1: own hearts privately, uh, another, another issue that a lot
31:52
S1: of families are dealing with is pornography. Um, and I
31:55
S1: had a couple friends in Bible study one day and
31:58
S1: we were talking about, um, we're talking about contempt and
32:02
S1: how contempt is this like being disgusted with some other
32:06
S1: sinner and treating them like, you know, I never have,
32:09
S1: I never would, I never could, like I, I have
32:11
S1: climbed into God's chair and I'm swinging his gavel and
32:14
S1: I loathe you. And, you know, you're just awful. And
32:17
S1: so we were talking about how like, yes, this other
32:19
S1: sinner is wrong. But when we have that sort of attitude,
32:21
S1: we too are wrong. And so these two girls in
32:24
S1: Bible study both had husbands who were addicted to pornography. And, um,
32:31
S1: and they were, they were so humbled by this, this
32:35
S1: conversation that we had about contempt. It kind of goes
32:37
S1: back to that, you know, Jesus says, do not judge
32:40
S1: that you won't be judged. They were they were realizing like,
32:42
S1: I actually haven't used a lot of mercy toward my husband.
32:46
S1: And so these two women decided, okay, we're going to
32:49
S1: make a pact. And rather than rehearsing our disgust and
32:54
S1: our contempt over our husband's sin, what we're going to
32:56
S1: do is we're going to we're going to influence each other.
32:59
S1: We're going to have this mercy sort of influence, right.
33:01
S1: And we're going to we're going to respond. You know,
33:04
S1: we're going to pray for our husbands. We're going to create, um,
33:08
S1: a safe place for them, you know, within our two families.
33:12
S1: We're going to welcome these husbands, we're going to pray
33:14
S1: for them and we're going to, we're going to hold
33:16
S1: each other accountable with this whole contempt thing. And it
33:20
S1: was just this remarkable change in the the marriages in,
33:25
S1: you know, both of these husbands, they started attending a
33:27
S1: Bible study together. Um, the Lord worked in their hearts.
33:32
S1: And I think it started with these, these wives and
33:35
S1: their attitude toward the sin of their husbands.
33:39
S4: Yeah.
33:40
S3: Part of this also involves if it's a non-Christian conversation
33:45
S3: with them, right. Uh, no matter, no matter what the topic,
33:48
S3: but to say, if you see them doing something or
33:50
S3: a lifestyle that's, that, you know, is against scripture to
33:54
S3: say to them things like, I noticed that you. Da
33:58
S3: da da da da da da. Uh, what what led you?
34:00
S3: What leads you to do that? What motivates you to
34:03
S3: do that? You're just trying to find out where they're
34:05
S3: coming from. You know, so you can say, oh yeah,
34:07
S3: I can see now how you would drift into that.
34:10
S3: And because you've engaged them in conversation, then they may
34:16
S3: well even say to you, well, how do you feel
34:18
S3: about that?
34:20
S4: And yes, yes, absolutely.
34:22
S3: And now you can share.
34:24
S4: Yes.
34:25
S1: Conversations and curiosity before the judgment. Absolutely.
34:29
S4: Yeah.
34:29
S3: Yeah, yeah. Very, very important. Okay. Shannon, you talk about
34:34
S3: holding court in your head and often judging others superficially. Uh,
34:42
S3: how do we avoid that pitfall?
34:44
S1: Yes. I think it sort of has to do with
34:47
S1: what we were just talking about. We can be so
34:50
S1: closed minded and presumptive as if we know. Right. As
34:53
S1: if we know everything about this other person. We haven't
34:56
S1: even had a conversation with them. Um, and and we
34:59
S1: do this like you said, we do this thing where
35:01
S1: we hold court, we list out all the ways that
35:03
S1: I'm right and they're wrong. And, you know, we, we
35:07
S1: examine the evidence, we pound our gavels. We issue the
35:10
S1: verdict and court is adjourned. And, you know, this other
35:13
S1: person is completely judged. And yet we don't we truly
35:17
S1: don't know. And so one of the things that I
35:19
S1: think the Lord has really convicted my heart of, of
35:22
S1: being so closed mind and, and presumptive about other people. Um,
35:28
S1: we see that in the Pharisees, you know, the Pharisees
35:31
S1: over and over. They said, we know that Jesus is
35:33
S1: not from God. We know. Well, how did they know that?
35:36
S1: You know what, what were they basing that judgment on?
35:40
S1: And so I think, you know, we we have to
35:43
S1: be so mindful of the fact that we don't know
35:46
S1: that we are not the judge. I met with a
35:49
S1: counselor once working through a reconciliation situation, and he told me,
35:54
S1: you know what, Shannon, you are so jaded. You, you know,
35:57
S1: presume that what this person is saying is not actually
36:00
S1: what they mean. You know, you just have so many
36:03
S1: assumptions about what actually is going on or what, you know,
36:07
S1: how this is actually going to turn out. And he
36:09
S1: confronted me. He said, you know, instead of judging what
36:12
S1: I want to ask you to do is first Corinthians
36:16
S1: says that love hopes all things. Let's just let's just
36:20
S1: abandon this idea that, you know, right? Let's hope all
36:25
S1: things and assume that this person is telling the truth. Now,
36:29
S1: that doesn't mean abandon all good judgment like, you know,
36:32
S1: but he, he told me if I'm being lied to
36:35
S1: or if this person is, is disingenuine, well, then that
36:39
S1: will come, that will surface and that will be the
36:41
S1: time to deal with it. But for now, I could
36:44
S1: just enter into this relationship with an open hearted, you know,
36:49
S1: not presuming the worst about this other person. And can
36:52
S1: I just tell you what a huge difference that that
36:55
S1: has made in my life, right? To not just be
36:58
S1: presuming that I know. Um, you know, holding court in
37:01
S1: my head. The person, the other person doesn't even know
37:03
S1: that I'm holding court. And so I think we avoid
37:06
S1: that pitfall, first of all, by dealing with our own presumptions.
37:10
S1: You know, just reminding ourselves, and I have started doing
37:13
S1: that in friendships where someone's talking about someone else and
37:16
S1: they're frustrated. I'm like, well, do you actually know that,
37:19
S1: you know, let's, let's not pre prematurely cast judgment. Like let's,
37:26
S1: let's not superficially assume that we know something we don't
37:29
S1: because we don't. And so, um, I think just, just
37:33
S1: being mindful of the fact that there are so many
37:35
S1: things that we don't know.
37:37
S4: Yeah.
37:38
S3: So we, we can hold convictions. And as Christians, we
37:42
S3: do have convictions based on what Jesus said, right to
37:45
S3: do or not to do. And we believe that every
37:49
S3: command Jesus gave to do or not to do is
37:52
S3: because he loves us, and he wants us to have
37:54
S3: the best possible life so we can hold those convictions
37:58
S3: without just overtly judging everybody that doesn't believe them or
38:03
S3: doesn't even know them. You know? Right.
38:05
S4: Mhm. Yes. Yes.
38:08
S3: And particularly with non-Christians building some kind of relationship before
38:14
S3: we come down and condemn them for something, it's going
38:18
S3: to be far more likely to be used of God
38:20
S3: to bring them to Christ. Right?
38:23
S1: Yes, yes. I mean, we can't expect that, that those
38:27
S1: outside the family of faith would have the same convictions
38:30
S1: because they don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't have
38:32
S1: the Word of God. How would they know this? And
38:34
S1: I mean, Paul says that, you know, we aren't called
38:37
S1: to judge those outside the family of faith. That's true.
38:40
S4: Yeah.
38:41
S3: Now, you mentioned mercy again and again and again in
38:44
S3: our conversation. What is mercy and what surprising effect does
38:50
S3: it have On us and on the people we relate to.
38:56
S4: Mhm.
38:57
S1: Well, mercy is not receiving the judgment that we do deserve. Right.
39:03
S1: That's what that's what mercy is. And that mercy, the
39:07
S1: fact that mercy has is it's very moving. Uh, there's
39:11
S1: this story of the thief on the cross who's next
39:13
S1: to Jesus, and he is mocking Jesus. He's judging Jesus.
39:19
S1: He and this other, this other criminal on both sides.
39:22
S1: I mean, it's like their hands are nailed to the cross,
39:25
S1: and yet their fingers are still pointing down at Jesus somehow.
39:28
S1: And so something happens between the time that he's mocking
39:32
S1: Jesus and the time that he says to Jesus, remember
39:36
S1: me when you enter your kingdom. And so like something
39:39
S1: in his heart shifts. And really what's there's just one
39:42
S1: thing that's recorded and it's Jesus and his prayer. Um,
39:46
S1: and it's this beautiful prayer of mercy. He says, father,
39:51
S1: forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. He prays like, Lord,
39:55
S1: you know, don't let the final judgment fall yet. Give
39:58
S1: them more time. They don't see. They don't understand. And
40:00
S1: so he prays that God's mercy would be poured out
40:03
S1: on these people. And, and so this thief, there is
40:07
S1: this huge shift. He goes from mocking and scoffing to
40:11
S1: siding with Jesus. He's like, you know, we've done all
40:14
S1: this wrong stuff. And this guy, he's innocent. He's done
40:17
S1: nothing wrong. And so Luke doesn't tell us that this
40:20
S1: is what he's affected by. But I mean, Luke's a
40:23
S1: storyteller and, you know, storytellers, they show us they don't
40:26
S1: just tell us what's happening. And so I think what's
40:28
S1: happening here is this mercy has an effect on this man.
40:31
S1: Mercy is jarring. It's unexpected. It's it's rare, it's precious,
40:37
S1: it's beautiful. And we always think, don't we, Gary, that
40:40
S1: it's like if we get in the face of somebody
40:42
S1: like you're saying, you know, just pointing out their sin and,
40:45
S1: you know, judging them get in their face, we feel
40:48
S1: like that's going to have the effect, but it's actually
40:51
S1: the opposite. You know, it's, it's mercy that moves us in.
40:56
S1: Romans two four says it's God's kindness is intended to
40:59
S1: lead us to repentance. There's intentionality that he's it's intended
41:04
S1: to have this effect. And so God's kind mercy, it's
41:07
S1: intended to have an effect on us. And it will
41:12
S1: have that same effect on other people. Right. And so
41:15
S1: this is as we consider the the sin that we
41:19
S1: see in other people, let's be more like Jesus, right? Let's,
41:23
S1: let's invite them with mercy. That's I mean, that's what
41:27
S1: happened to this thief. He went from being a criminal
41:30
S1: to being a friend of Jesus. Jesus says, today you're
41:34
S1: going to be with me in Paradise. And Paradise is
41:37
S1: is like the word for the. The king would have
41:39
S1: the special garden where he would walk with his friend. This.
41:43
S1: This hardened criminal is going to be the special friend
41:47
S1: of Jesus in his garden. I mean, what what caused that?
41:51
S1: The effect was mercy. Mercy is powerful. Uh, and so yeah,
41:56
S1: let's be people of mercy.
41:58
S4: Yeah.
41:59
S3: Well, Shannon, in the book, of course, you talk about
42:01
S3: six stories in the Bible and you're learning from those
42:05
S3: six stories in the Bible. Is there one of those
42:09
S3: stories that you identify with most when you reflect on them?
42:14
S1: Yes. I loved studying the story of Jonah. Jonah the prophet. Um,
42:19
S1: he was so, so filled with contempt for the Ninevites. Uh,
42:25
S1: and we don't really learn that until a little further
42:27
S1: in the book at first in the book of Jonah.
42:29
S1: You you sense, you know, every every good story has
42:33
S1: a tension. And we sense that the tension is, well,
42:35
S1: there is a prophet who needs to obey. He's fleeing
42:38
S1: instead of going to Nineveh. And there are people in
42:40
S1: Nineveh who need to repent and. And yet by chapter three,
42:44
S1: both of those things have happened and the story continues.
42:48
S1: And really, what we're getting at in the story of
42:50
S1: Jonah is the contempt that Jonah has for these people.
42:53
S1: That's what the Lord is dealing with in Jonah's heart
42:55
S1: and man. That's what the Lord was dealing with in
42:58
S1: my heart as I read this story. You know, Jonah,
43:00
S1: he was here. Is this whole city full of people
43:03
S1: falling to their knees in repentance. And Jonah is throwing
43:06
S1: an absolute fit about it. He is so filled with
43:10
S1: contempt for him. And in his heart is like, like
43:13
S1: we've said, it's like that superiority, that moral superiority and contempt.
43:17
S1: He's saying, like, I never have, I never would, I
43:19
S1: never could, I don't want these people to receive your mercy, Lord.
43:23
S1: And the Lord responds, saying, like, Jonah, are you right
43:26
S1: to be angry? You know, in this in this contempt
43:29
S1: that you hold, are you right? And you know, as
43:32
S1: as I was reflecting my Ninevites in my life, Gary,
43:36
S1: aren't quite as evil as those Ninevites. And yet I
43:39
S1: can I'm just surprised at how low my threshold for
43:43
S1: contempt is. And as I was writing this book, I
43:47
S1: was kind of revisiting the relationship I had with my
43:50
S1: mother in law. You know, I had so just sealed
43:55
S1: up that story. She's gone to be with the Lord.
43:56
S1: She's in heaven now. But I, I had just written
43:59
S1: that story in my mind that, you know, the tension
44:01
S1: in our relationship was all her fault. She was really
44:04
S1: hard and difficult. And I did the best I could.
44:06
S1: You know, I was a good daughter in law. I
44:08
S1: did all I did, all right, all, you know, with
44:10
S1: my nose slightly turned up, you see. And as I,
44:13
S1: as I revisited that, that just memory of her, I
44:18
S1: had this thought like I treated her the way that
44:21
S1: Jonah treated these Ninevites. I was so, you know, maybe
44:25
S1: not overtly, but contempt is something that we catch and
44:29
S1: oh my goodness, the Lord convicted me in my heart
44:32
S1: of how easily I can lift myself up and see
44:36
S1: myself as superior. And yet, like that story that we
44:40
S1: that we were talking about with Simon and the sinful woman,
44:44
S1: like our Lord puts us together in the same story
44:47
S1: with the other sinners. And that's what he does at
44:48
S1: the end of Jonah. The Lord says, should I not
44:51
S1: have compassion for all of these humans? He uses this
44:54
S1: word instead of people. He uses human. So he puts
44:57
S1: Jonah in the same human race as the Ninevites. And
45:01
S1: he's like, look, I've shown compassion on you. Shouldn't I
45:03
S1: show compassion on them? And so I was so moved
45:07
S1: by this story and just so motivated to not have
45:10
S1: that contempt. And, you know, the Lord was working on
45:13
S1: my heart the same way as Jonah.
45:15
S3: Yeah. That's powerful. Well, as we come to the close
45:19
S3: of our meeting today, let me ask you this question,
45:21
S3: because this this program has to do with relationships. And
45:24
S3: we're talking about relationships here. So what if you have
45:28
S3: a judgmental spouse who doesn't see that they are judgy,
45:33
S3: to use your word, is there anything a spouse can
45:38
S3: do to help change this situation.
45:42
S1: Yes. Yeah. I think, um, you know, leaning in with
45:47
S1: that curiosity, like, is there a way that I have
45:50
S1: offended you? Like, is it tell me, you know, tell
45:52
S1: me more. We can be, we can be so closed
45:55
S1: minded about even how you know, what our spouse is
45:59
S1: thinking and why they're acting this way. And maybe, you know,
46:03
S1: maybe we have offended them more than we realize. Um,
46:07
S1: but I think, you know, like I said, it's so
46:09
S1: natural to feel judged and become judgy. But what if
46:13
S1: we could be like Jesus? Like nobody was more misjudged
46:16
S1: than Jesus? You know, as he was wrongly judged on
46:20
S1: that cross. And he prayed, father, show them mercy. They
46:22
S1: don't see, they don't understand. Mercy has this powerful effect
46:26
S1: in relationships. And so, and just remember that the most
46:31
S1: merciful being in the universe lives inside you. If you
46:34
S1: are a believer, he's living in you. He empowers you
46:38
S1: and your command is to be merciful, as your father
46:41
S1: in heaven is merciful. And so if they don't see
46:44
S1: that they're judgy. Is there something you can do? Yeah.
46:47
S1: I think that having mercy, I think the normal thing
46:51
S1: would be to feel judged, become judgy, feel judged, become judgy,
46:54
S1: like everybody just reacting to one another. I think we
46:57
S1: can break the cycle with saying, you know what? I'm
47:00
S1: a sinner just like you. I have received this mercy.
47:02
S1: It's changed my heart and I want to pour that out.
47:05
S1: I want to use my big, huge, gallon sized mercy
47:07
S1: scoop in your life. I want to pour that into
47:10
S1: your life. And I think that has a powerful effect.
47:12
S4: Yeah.
47:13
S3: Well, Shannon, let me thank you for being on the
47:15
S3: program today and discussing this topic that's really common to life,
47:19
S3: but we don't talk that much about it. And also
47:22
S3: thank you for your the book. The book's going to
47:25
S3: help a lot of people with this topic. So again,
47:28
S3: thanks for what you're doing to share scriptures and the
47:32
S3: meaning of scriptures, and particularly this mercy part of Scripture
47:36
S3: with our audience today.
47:39
S1: It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for this conversation.
47:42
S2: Our guest has been Shannon Popkin, and our featured resource
47:45
S2: is kinda judgy, finding mercy for myself and others in
47:50
S2: six stories of the Bible. Find out more at the
47:52
S2: website Building relationships.us. Find out more about her there as
47:57
S2: well on our podcast. Just go to Building relationships.us.
48:02
S3: And next week. How could the concept of agape love
48:06
S3: change your relationships?
48:08
S2: Doctor Winfred Neeley talks about love to live by in
48:12
S2: one week. Big thank you to Steve Wick and Janice
48:14
S2: backing for their production work today. Building relationships with Doctor
48:18
S2: Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago
48:21
S2: in association with Moody Publishers, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
48:26
S2: Thanks for listening.