Latest / The Joe Rogan Experience / #2533 - Diana Pasulka

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#2533 - Diana Pasulka · The Joe Rogan Experience

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  Speaker 1: Joe podcast. Check it out The Joe Logan Experience Trained
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: by Day.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Joe Rogan Podcast, By Night, all Day. Travis walt at all.
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  Speaker 1: You know, of course I know who he is. Yeah, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: and I believe him.
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  Speaker 2: I do too, Yeah, I mean he he certainly seems believable.
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  Speaker 2: I'm you know, people that tell the same story for
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  Speaker 2: decades and decades without any variation to it. It's hard.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I don't know what happened, but
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  Speaker 2: all the people that were with him during the time
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  Speaker 2: we're talking about for people just listening now talking about
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  Speaker 2: Travis Walton, who was a man who in the nineteen
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  Speaker 2: seventies was a logger in Arizona and he was allegedly,
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  Speaker 2: according to him, abducted by aliens and the people that
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  Speaker 2: he was with saw him get hit by a beam
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  Speaker 2: of light. They freaked out, took off, They were driving away,
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  Speaker 2: and they were like, we got to go back and
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  Speaker 2: get and we got to go back and get him.
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  Speaker 2: They turn around and went back and got him, try
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  Speaker 2: to get him. He was gone, The craft was gone,
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  Speaker 2: and he disappeared for five days and then turned up
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  Speaker 2: and had this insane story.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he's taken those tests like yeah, polygraph
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  Speaker 1: tests like every year or something like that. He takes
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  Speaker 1: them regularly and he always passes them.
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  Speaker 2: Well so did the people that were with him.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and they And I've seen people interview the
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  Speaker 1: people that were with him, even just recently, and they're like, well, whatever,
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  Speaker 1: regardless of what I think about Travis as a person, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that happened.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the guys actually got in a fist
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  Speaker 2: fight with him the day of the abduction. The guy
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  Speaker 2: did not like him, like they hated each other, and
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  Speaker 2: then you know, they were young guys, and then he
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  Speaker 2: had to testify and he was like it happened.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was so Yeah. I believe him. And
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  Speaker 1: his interpretation has changed a lot too through the years,
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  Speaker 1: in not the facts, the facts are all the same,
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  Speaker 1: but his interpretation of them, like, you know, were they
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  Speaker 1: because he thought they were pretty maligned, like bad, right,
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  Speaker 1: He didn't enjoy being abducted, list with it that way.
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  Speaker 1: But then over the years he said, well maybe something
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  Speaker 1: spiritual happened. But I don't know where he's at right now.
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  Speaker 1: I haven't seen a recent.
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  Speaker 2: Interview with There's an interesting one that's out now with
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  Speaker 2: him and Bablozar sitting across from each other.
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  Speaker 3: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, in a diner. It's very weird. And they're sitting
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  Speaker 2: there eating pie talking about you know what they think
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  Speaker 2: this whole thing is.
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  Speaker 1: Uh huh uh huh yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So what's new in the world of all this?
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  Speaker 1: Well a lot, right, So the government has been releasing
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  Speaker 1: UFO files since May twenty twenty six, and this is
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  Speaker 1: something that a lot of people think is really important,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, it's a form of disclosure. They're pushing
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  Speaker 1: the group that is pushing this and happy that this
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  Speaker 1: is happening. They're also wanting the president to come out
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  Speaker 1: and say, yeah, there are these things. I saw a JD.
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  Speaker 1: Vance on your show the other day that was really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: He's of course, I was interested in what he had
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  Speaker 1: to say. You kind of push back on his what
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  Speaker 1: he was talking about in terms of colleague. I don't
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  Speaker 1: want to use that word, the d word.
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  Speaker 2: Right demons, Yeah, why don't want to use.
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  Speaker 1: That word, because I must take this opportunity now to
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  Speaker 1: say that I am speaking on your podcast as a
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  Speaker 1: private individual and I don't represent my university talking about this. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So I mean, seriously, look what happened to him? So
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  Speaker 1: he basically, you know, was honest and said, yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: think that these are you know, demons. Well, you know
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  Speaker 1: that was the headline, Joe, but when you actually listen
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  Speaker 1: to what he had to say, it was more complicated.
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  Speaker 1: And so I thought that, uh, he did a good
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  Speaker 1: job of talking about it with you, and if you want,
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  Speaker 1: we can talk about that. Why he would think that
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  Speaker 1: he is Catholic? I'm Catholic. I do history of Catholicism
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  Speaker 1: is part of what I do. By the way, I'm
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  Speaker 1: a professor of religious studies at university. So yeah, so
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  Speaker 1: I've been like looking at that. I've been doing Catholic
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  Speaker 1: history my whole life. So I started doing looking into
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  Speaker 1: UFO experiences in twenty twelve, and yeah, so lots is new.
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  Speaker 1: Are lots of stuff is new? Okay.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't think that he had a very satisfying explanation
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  Speaker 2: as to why he would say I think they are demons.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can fill that out, okay, okay, or fill
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  Speaker 1: that in all right. So he's coming from the perspective
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  Speaker 1: of Catholic theology. So in Catholic theology, there are generally
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  Speaker 1: if you're looking at anomalist phenomena, which they do, supernatural
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  Speaker 1: anomalist phenomena. A lot of weird stuff happens within the
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  Speaker 1: history of religions. Okay, so they have categories for understanding
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  Speaker 1: this stuff. And the categories include three different categories, basically
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  Speaker 1: three different types of things. Supernatural things which they think
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  Speaker 1: can't be explained and that they're like miracles. You know,
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  Speaker 1: someone terminally ill praise for a saints intercession and then
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  Speaker 1: they become healed, and doctors say, we can figure that out.
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  Speaker 1: That's supernatural. That's a miracle from God. Okay, that's one category.
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  Speaker 1: The other category is the natural, So things that are
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  Speaker 1: within nature, we can explain them. You know, everybody knows
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  Speaker 1: what a natural kind of event is, hurricanes and things
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  Speaker 1: like that. But there's a there are events that cannot
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  Speaker 1: be explained but don't merit supernatural the supernatural category, and
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  Speaker 1: those events can. By the way, there's a word for it,
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  Speaker 1: and they call it the preternatural. Okay, the preternatural. And
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  Speaker 1: this has been a category that Catholics have had since
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  Speaker 1: at least the medieval time period. And because they're trying
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  Speaker 1: to figure out you know, if let's just talk about you,
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  Speaker 1: if UFOs are here now, most likely they've been around
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  Speaker 1: for a long time, and so whatever Cassocks were seeing
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  Speaker 1: in the medieval time period, they were they had categories
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  Speaker 1: for trying to understand it, just like we're trying to
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  Speaker 1: have too. And so they say, the theologians at the
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  Speaker 1: time said, like a Quinas Thomas Aquinas, he said, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: the preternatural. These are events that happen, and they're either
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  Speaker 1: angelic like you know, good things like that, or demonic,
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  Speaker 1: which are fallen angels or other things. Because God has
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  Speaker 1: created other things other than you know, He's created the
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  Speaker 1: unseen and the scenes, some things that we can't see.
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  Speaker 1: So in the preternatural, there happens to be experiences that
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  Speaker 1: people have with things that seem to be similar to
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  Speaker 1: what people talk about when they're talking about being abducted
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  Speaker 1: by UFOs, Beings that appear and disappear, beings that can
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  Speaker 1: seemingly read your mind. So this would be the theological
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  Speaker 1: category that Catholics have called the preternatural. And I think
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  Speaker 1: that's what JD. Vance was trying to get at.
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  Speaker 2: But why would you call that a demon?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a good question, and that's where
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to kind of like help push back on you,
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  Speaker 1: and then you could push back on me again. All right,
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  Speaker 1: So the fact is is that we don't know. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: we don't know. So there's analogous experiences that people have.
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  Speaker 1: Now that I've been doing this since twenty twelve, a
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  Speaker 1: long time, it is beyond a doubt that there's a
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  Speaker 1: pattern match between people who have these experiences and people
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  Speaker 1: who have demonic experiences. That's an analogy, but that doesn't
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  Speaker 1: prove that they're identical.
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  Speaker 2: When you say pattern match, what do you mean?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm talking about what people actually experience. So
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  Speaker 1: when people have these experiences, what happens to them? They
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  Speaker 1: report things like things appearing and disappearing, luminous lights okay,
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  Speaker 1: lights showing up phenomena. They also report beings, beings that
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  Speaker 1: can somehow read their minds. They also report that sometimes
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  Speaker 1: they feel like these beings put thoughts in their minds. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: These are all things that Catholics who know that history
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  Speaker 1: would say, Wow, that sounds like this kind of situation.
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  Speaker 1: Does that mean it is that situation? There's no, no,
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  Speaker 1: we can't say that it is. And that's where your
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  Speaker 1: point is relevant. Your point is that how do we
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  Speaker 1: know that their demons? We don't know that their demons,
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  Speaker 1: but it warrants an investigation I think into the similarities.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, but when you think about demons, most people think
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  Speaker 2: about evil. They think about something that does horrible things
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  Speaker 2: to you, possession, you know, something that causes you to
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  Speaker 2: murder people, or something that wants to murder you, or
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  Speaker 2: something wants to steal your soul. That doesn't seem at
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  Speaker 2: all like what we're talking about with these experiences. What
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  Speaker 2: it seems like is you're encountering something that is a
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  Speaker 2: superior intelligence, of superior technology, something that's very different, that
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  Speaker 2: communicates telepathically, but they don't seem to have vicious intentions.
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  Speaker 2: So I don't understand the distinction. I understand why you
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  Speaker 2: would call that a demon, unless you're just using that
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  Speaker 2: in this old school term, because the people that were
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  Speaker 2: experiencing this supposedly or assumedly, when we're talking about ancient
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  Speaker 2: times and they didn't have words for it and they
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  Speaker 2: didn't know what they were experiencing, they would call that
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  Speaker 2: a demon.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so this is a really good comment, and
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  Speaker 1: this is something that i'd agree with you. Like in
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  Speaker 1: before twenty sixteen, i'd say, yeah, you're right.
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  Speaker 2: What changed?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? I did a lot of research, and what I
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  Speaker 1: found was that let's take an example, because examples are
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  Speaker 1: good Walker Ranch. So there are a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: who are associated with looking into UFOs who are well
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  Speaker 1: known to UFO, people who work at Skinwalker Ranch. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So I learned about Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on twenty
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  Speaker 1: thirteen or so, and I learned it from about it
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  Speaker 1: from Gary Gary Nolan all right, So he said he
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  Speaker 1: was talking to me about it. He said, yeah, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of my friends are working out there, and they
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  Speaker 1: want me to go out there and do some study
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  Speaker 1: of what's going on. There's anomalous phenomena. They think it's
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  Speaker 1: associated with UFOs because UFOs show up this and that.
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  Speaker 1: And I said, oh, are you going to go out there?
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  Speaker 1: And he said no, I'm not going out there. And
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: so I was like, well, okay, why and he said,
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  Speaker 1: because it's really negative. The things that happen to people,
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  Speaker 1: they get something called the hitchhiker effect. And so the
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: hitchhiker effect is when this scary stuff that's associated with
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  Speaker 1: like a haunted place. All you home, I've heard of
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  Speaker 1: that before, Yeah, the hitchhiker effect. I think it's called
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  Speaker 1: the hitchhiker syndrome or something. And so I met a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people who had this happen to them, who
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  Speaker 1: had had UFO experiences. So I would say that, no,
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  Speaker 1: not all UFO experiences are like that, but enough of
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  Speaker 1: them are like that for me not to ever have one,
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  Speaker 1: and also to associate the preternatural. That's what I started
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  Speaker 1: to understand that, well, the preternatural is still the best
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  Speaker 1: category that we have for looking at this, because not
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  Speaker 1: all preternatural phenomena, even for Catholics, is negative, right, Some
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  Speaker 1: of this is actually really positive. But the thing the
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  Speaker 1: problem is that human beings have a hard time figuring
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  Speaker 1: out like you know, it could be deceptive. This is
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  Speaker 1: another thing where Gary Nolan comes in. He was on
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  Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson, I don't know, like four years ago or something,
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  Speaker 1: and he said, and I've talked to him about this too.
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  Speaker 1: Tucker asked him about what do these things, you know,
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  Speaker 1: what do they say? And he goes, oh, they lie,
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  Speaker 1: they they're deceptive. They you know, and he's a guy
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  Speaker 1: who doesn't have a dog in the race in terms
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  Speaker 1: of religion, like he's not you know, affiliated with any religion.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, when he said they lie, like what
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  Speaker 2: specific examples does he have of them lying?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So listen, when we start to look at this
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  Speaker 1: type of situation with you know, these experiences and so forth,
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  Speaker 1: what a Catholic would do, like what a what a
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  Speaker 1: Catholic priests say would do, would be to identify if
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  Speaker 1: they're if there's deceit happening, to identify if there are
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  Speaker 1: negative effects. And you know, because there's criteria for looking
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  Speaker 1: at the preternatural and so a lot of things that
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  Speaker 1: happen are when you have, you know, these abductions, which
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  Speaker 1: some people view as positive, but some people don't. They
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  Speaker 1: don't like these abductions. So yeah, they'll say things that
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  Speaker 1: aren't true, and uh, I don't know. They'll say like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: I'll take I'll take an example. I'm not gonna out
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  Speaker 1: any experiences that I know, but I know a lot.
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  Speaker 1: So at this point, I've had, like I don't know,
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  Speaker 1: about a thousand people talk to me about their experiences.
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  Speaker 1: So one in particular regularly gets prophetic messages, some of
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  Speaker 1: which come true, most of which are not true. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: That means when when you have one or two prophetic
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  Speaker 1: messages given to you by an anomalous you know, being
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  Speaker 1: or whatnot, and it comes true, You're willing maybe to
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  Speaker 1: believe it, right, Oh, this is you know, telling this
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  Speaker 1: is telling me good information. But then they start not
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  Speaker 1: to come true. And then if that person makes this public. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: that person then is you know, people associate them with
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  Speaker 1: falsehood and deceit and that's not a positive thing.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, but have you taken the consideration that this person
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  Speaker 2: might be mentally ill?
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  Speaker 1: Of course, of course.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this this idea that they're getting all of
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  Speaker 2: these like whatever it is visions. I mean, how are
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  Speaker 2: they receiving this information? Are they receiving it telepathically like
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  Speaker 2: when you say prophetic?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, so the so there are different So you
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  Speaker 1: asked me what kinds of people like what they would say?
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  Speaker 2: Right, Well, well, if these things are deceiving them, so
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  Speaker 2: they have these prophetic visions, right, how is how are
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  Speaker 2: these visions manifesting themselves in their minds?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing an
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  Speaker 2: event happen?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? So there are a variety of ways in which
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  Speaker 1: people receive this type of information, like prophetic information. I
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  Speaker 1: would say that some people actually see things and the beings,
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  Speaker 1: like in part telepathically like mine to mind transmission something
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  Speaker 1: this is going to happen, and then they believe it. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: this happens within like angel events, like marrying apparitions. It
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  Speaker 1: happens to you know people, It happens to people in
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  Speaker 1: abductions as well. And you know, I mean that's what
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  Speaker 1: happens to them. They see things. They sometimes have visions
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  Speaker 1: in their dreams. So there's there are a variety of
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  Speaker 1: ways that people gets up right there.
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  Speaker 2: Visions in their dreams could also just be dreams, Like
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  Speaker 2: how can they make a distinction between just dreams, like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: Godzilla was chasing me, I was on a skateboard. I
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  Speaker 2: ran into my cousin. We hid in his basement and
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  Speaker 2: then I woke up. Like, that's just a dream, that's
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  Speaker 2: not a prophecy. And if they're having those dreams as
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  Speaker 2: well as these visionary dreams that they think are inspired
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  Speaker 2: by some entity, how are they making the distinction between
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  Speaker 2: the two of them if both of them exist at
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  Speaker 2: the same time in the same person's mind.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So within the culture of within our culture,
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  Speaker 1: we tend to put dreams in the same category. We say,
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  Speaker 1: the dream about Godzilla is like, you know, all dreams
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  Speaker 1: are the same right, they're either bad dreams or good
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  Speaker 1: dreams that are neutral. Within there are other cultures that
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  Speaker 1: distinguish different types of dreams. And within the Western culture
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  Speaker 1: there have been times when people have distinguished different types
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  Speaker 1: of dreams. Like say, you take the Old Testament or
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Hebrew Bible, you have Joseph, right, Joseph is a guy
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  Speaker 1: who's going to be big. He's a prophet, and he
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  Speaker 1: has dreams where he's able to tell the future, and
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  Speaker 1: he's able to distinguish between those dreams. So within certain cultures,
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  Speaker 1: even cultures today, like different religious cultures, they have distinctions
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  Speaker 1: the mar too. In Australia they have you know, they
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  Speaker 1: talk about the dream time. So we're kind of a
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  Speaker 1: culture that puts all dreams in the same category. And
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: granted that's true in terms of just gussing whether or
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  Speaker 1: not people are mentally ill. Travis Walton's not mentally ill.
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  Speaker 2: Right, But Travis Walton is not having prophecies.
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  Speaker 1: No, I know, but he's he's one that doesn't and
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  Speaker 1: there are others who do.
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  Speaker 2: I understand. But we got to this place because you
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: were talking about beings that deceive.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, So I'm saying that I'm saying not all of
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  Speaker 1: them deceived. But I'm saying that I'm trying to explain.
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to ask you, how are they deceiving?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I just told you so they'll be giving people
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  Speaker 1: information about the future, some of which is correct and
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  Speaker 1: some of which is not.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So how are they giving them this information? They're
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  Speaker 2: giving it to them telepathically or is it coming to
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  Speaker 2: them in a vision and a dream. It's two very
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: different things, right.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it could be both depending on the instance.
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  Speaker 2: Right. But if it's in a dream, how do they
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  Speaker 2: know it's coming from this entity and not just a dream.
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  Speaker 2: That's my point, that you're being deceived.
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  Speaker 1: Well, a lot of them won't make that distinction, and
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  Speaker 1: so that's where you need.
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  Speaker 2: The abductees. Yeah, I will make that distinction.
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  Speaker 1: Because they've never had this happen to them before, so
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  Speaker 1: of course they're going to think this is true. But
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: my position is that be careful because we don't know
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  Speaker 1: if it's true.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Or if it's not right. But I mean, how are
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: you making this distinction between what is just their imagination
• 18:15
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• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Right, that's the good question. I don't know.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: So how is Gary Nolan saying they lie?
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Well, he's taking data and he's saying that they're saying
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: this inform. You know, they're telling these people this information
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: and it's wrong information. And so he's not making you know,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: he's not trying to make a big claim. He's just
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: basically saying. You know, Tucker asks him, why, you know,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: what kind of things are they saying? And he said, well,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: they're being deceived, right, they say deceitful things. And my
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: point that, by the way, getting back to the original, but.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: It would be it's very frustrating.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, no, I know you're frustrated. But the original
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: question here is what is jd Vance talking about when
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: he's saying these are demons? And I'm trying to explain
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: that he's referencing this theological category that has been around
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: for a long time and that is actually quite useful
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: in adjudicating what's going on when people are having these experiences.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Now I'm saying that I'm not trying to propose that
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: these are like experiences. Honestly, I wouldn't want them to
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: happen to me, and I don't wish them upon anyone,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: but some people.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: You wouldn't want to meet an alien.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Not the aliens that people seem to be meeting.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So which one would you like to meet?
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I mean hypothetically, like I'm not
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: put it out there.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I'm down if they want to meet me, I'm down, Okay,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I'd love to meet one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: I want to know. I'm not scared. They don't seem
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: to steal you. They don't take you away and never
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: bring you back. They just they just interact with you.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I'm down with that.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have to distinguish between I mean, yeah,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: go for it, meeting at want that.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Look, if you are a person who writes books about.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Aliens, yes, I do write books, well somewhat about aliens.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I write about the religion about aliens.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, but yeah, a lot of the subject matter has
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: to do with extraterrestrial intelligence or whatever it is.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we don't know what it is.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: It might be interdimensional, or it might be here, something
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: that's of a superior intellect that's been.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Here all along, and it might be something within the
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: category of the preternatural. Right, Yeah, So my point is
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: that if it is, if it, whatever it is, you're right,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I've been studying it, and I can say that if
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: those are the aliens, no, I don't want to meet them.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: If if they're the ones that, like people have come
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and told me about and said, I wish this never happened.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: To me, you know, then no, I don't want to
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: meet them.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: That's it's different people, right, and different people have different
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: tolerances for experiences. And when someone says I wish this
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: didn't happen to me, it's because they can't handle it
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: and whereas other people might be able to handle it.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Maybe. But like look at the things that the fighter pilots,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: like David Fraverer.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And they don't seem to have a problem with it.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Like they're not saying I wish this never happened to me.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: No, but they are saying that this looks pretty dangerous.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't want it to first. I hope that this does.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: This isn't an enemy technology, yes, they're like, if that's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: our if our enemies have this technology, it's done. Yeah, yeah,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: so that's scary. And if it's not, then it's definitely
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: something that we should take notice of, right, So if
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that's what's in our skies, And there have been reports
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: of people there is an Australian report of pilots who
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: have passed away because of this type of thing, like
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: they died and so forth. So I can't actually remember
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: what it is, but it's a report of an Australian
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: young guy who was who encountered something in the sky
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and he was never found again. He was just you
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: know what happened, I don't know.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And there he disappeared in the sky.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are with the jet. I don't know
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: if he disappeared with the jet.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I wish you knew more about this story.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I know, I know, maybe someone could get it up
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: for us and we can look at it. But it's
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: a really famous it's a really key. Yeah, it's a
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: really famous Australian report.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Here it is. It's nineteen seventy eight, twenty year old
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Australian pilot Frederick Valentyke Valentike.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I think it's Valentic.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Valentic took off on a routine training flight over Bass Straight.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Everything seemed normal until his radio transmissions began. Valentique reported
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: and metallic surfaces, moving at impossible speeds. Then came his
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: final chilling words, it's not an aircraft. After that he
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: vanished completely. His cessna was never found despite extensive searches,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and no trace of him was ever recovered. Radar had
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: detected another object in the area but never interacted with
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: other flights. To this day, no one knows if Valenti crashed,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: got lost, or encountered something far more mysterious. Even decades later,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: this remains one of aviation's most baffling disappearances, and the
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: last words of a terrified pilot still haunt those who
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: hear them. So there's one guy.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You can go meet that one, Joe.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: And you know what, I think that.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Maybe he's like in a cool place right now, all right,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: just chilling, having a good time in another dimension, hanging
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: out with these creatures and they're explaining to him the
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: future of the universe.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: But you know that the thing about what I do
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: is I have a lot of information that people impart
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: to me. That is that I can't actually talk about, right,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And that sadly that happens.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: To people in because they ask you not to.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they say I need help with this this or
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: this is my experience and I don't want it public
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: and so forth.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, even without disclosing their.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Name, No, no, they can't. I know who they are.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: And so I've had people who are pilots talk to me.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Is this by the way, coffee?
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: This is ice cold coffee.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: How's it cold?
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: What is ice cold? Boiled it twice this coffee, trying
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: to make it again. I mean I made it today.
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: I made it boiled the ice cold. It's literally ice cold.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: That's weird. Are you sure?
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I hit the button twice.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: It definitely would increase banged and everything must must be broken.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy cold. It's like cold water.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: And I'll start it over.
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: So weird here I got more a couple motions from that.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: It's aliens. They're deceiving us. They fucked with Jamie's cold water.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Seven oh six pm Valente contact of the Melbourne air
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Traffic Controller Steve Roby, reporting and unidentified aircraft trailing him
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: at about four thy five hundred feet. Over the next
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: several minutes, he described a long, shiny, metallic object with
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: a green light. The craft appeared to be orbiting above him,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: who was moving at high speed and playing some sort
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: of game. In quotes, his engine became rough, idling and coughing.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: His final words that strange aircraft is hovering on top
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: of me. Again, it's hovering and it's not an aircraft.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: The transmission ended with seventeen seconds of metallic scraping or
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: king sounds then silence.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so this isn't.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: So.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Pilots and families of pilots have told me things similar
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: to this, not as dramatic.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Maybe can you get another cup to that poured a
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: cold coffee? In this?
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: So similar and so I guess I just you know,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: it looks pretty.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Grim that guy that one.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And there are.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Almost like the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I've always wondered like how much of that movie was.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: There's so much of that that was based on previous
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: UFO encounters, and even figures like Jaques A Jacqueval A
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: plays and the French scientist in that movie is based
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: on Choques Filat, Yes and so, and there's scenes where
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: these pilots show up that from like World War One,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: you know, and they've been gone forever and now they're
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: back and they haven't lost any time. I've always wondered, like,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: how much of this is based on stories and reports
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: and folklore or whatever the government knew.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's it's based on stories and
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: things that they like Jacques has heard and so forth.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: And by the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive too, So
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: his you know, his idea. He spent of course, his
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: whole life studying those and he wrote a book called
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Messengers of Deception.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I read that one.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, once you do.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I read a bunch of his books.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: John Keele, John Keel. It doesn't have a good idea
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: about these things at all. Thinks they're pretty nasty, doesn't
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: want them. And you know the Mothman prophecy. Yeah, so
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: he wrote that and that movie is based on his life,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: and he's he's down on it. He's a doomer with
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: respect to aliens.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: How so what is his perspective?
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna give it to you right now, all right, okay,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: all right, So he calls this it reminds me of
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Catholicism in the sense that he has a category for it.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: It's called the soup, uh, basically the super spectrum. Okay,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: and it's it's here with us now, just like you said,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: it's it's around us, but you and I can't see it.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: But some people do see it, and some people interact
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: with it and have like it breaks into their reality.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And for those people, he thinks that they're unlucky because
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: all the things that happened to them, like Men in
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Black show up. He thinks things like the beginning of
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: all religions is basically about someone who had an interface
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: with a pair of being, like one of these pair
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: of humans in the super spectrum. So it's kind of
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: like an invisible reality all around us. According to John Keel.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: John Keel was a pal of Jacques Valets. He's passed away,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: but his books are really amazing and if you want
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: to get an idea about the super spectrum and the phenomena,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: you should watch that movie of his called Mothman Prophecies.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: It's really good.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: And so the super spectrum, yeah, like what does he
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: think that is?
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: So he thinks that it's a like a space all
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: around us. It's been here forever. It controls us, It
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: controls humanity because it sends things like he thinks UFOs
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: are part of it. He thinks the Virgin Mary apparitions
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: are part of it. He thinks ghosts are part of it.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: So any kind of woo thing is there in the
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: super spectrum. And sometimes some people have the ability to
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: see what's in the super spectrum and there he thinks
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: they're cursed. Now he thinks angels are part of the
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: super spectrum. So he doesn't make any kind of distinction
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: between the good things in it and the bad things.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: He said, they're all bad. If there's one that appears
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to be good, it's actually bad. So again he started,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: you know, he was kind of like a Charles Ford
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: type guy. So he started to get a lot of
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: these you know, these events and you study them and
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: everything like that, and over years he developed a theory
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: that these were nasty things and that they were like
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: even if they appeared good, and that they be they
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: were at the beginning of all religions. All religions come
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: from the super spectrum. Obviously not that part about how
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it's like Catholicism, but you know, religions tend to have
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: theological categories that talk about things like the super spectrum.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: So what Jacques talks about in his books is sounds
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: very similar to you know, his control mechanism and is
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: very similar to John Keel's idea.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: What seems like just speculating, but it seems like we're
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: dealing with a very limited framework that we operate in
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: we as human beings operate. Do you want to take this, Jamie,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Do you need this Okay, that we operate in this
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: world of the senses that we possess site, sound, field, touch,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: all that smell. We have these senses for understanding what's
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: around us, but only those, and it's not capable of
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: detecting everything that is reality, everything that is the universe,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: everything that is from sub atomic particles to whatever the
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: fuck it is that we haven't even discovered yet. That's
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: all around us all the time. And so if there
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: is the potential for other realms or other dimensions, and
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: these things exist in some sort of a space where
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: they can interact and traverse in between these dementis and
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: interact with us at will whenever we can, we're kind
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: of left in this speculation space where when people have
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: these very novel and unique experiences like Travis Walton, and
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: then we're supposed to go, Okay, did that happen? It
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: didn't happen to me. But is he telling the truth? Okay,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: maybe he is. If he is, well, let's see if
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: he lies about other things. Well, he doesn't seem to lie.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: He's been around a long time. Travis has been around
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: for a long time telling that story, like almost fifty
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: years now, right, Like when was his experience.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: I thought, yeah on comers, Yeah.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you would think he would have a few
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: other FIBs.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, and he doesn't.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if it was a lie, and I don't think
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: it is. But if it was, that's a big lie
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to have only one. Yeah, only one crazy Kakamamy lie
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy whatever it was.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: See you, what you're doing is your This is part
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: of their criteria for assessing these kinds of events. Okay,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: it's called you know, taking time, so over time, so
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: when when an anomalous event happens within like say Christian
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: culture or whatnot.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Jamie, appreciate it. The cold is
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: all right, but it's like it's it's crazy cold. That
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: is weird. Yeah, dude, something's going on. But your finger
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: it fell out cold. It's cold like cold water. I understand.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I know what happened. What happened.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: You have the start button to make a boil. I
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: didn't have to start button.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: No user, but it beeped that that did that.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: That did because it didn't just turned off.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is hot. Here we go, quiet as the
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: French press. Where were we the categories?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah you were basically just making a move
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: once strategy. Yeah, sure, thank you.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like looking at something like I mean, that's my
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: perspective on Bob Blazaar. You know, Bob Bazaar has been
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: telling the exact same story forever. I've had many conversations
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: with Bob. I've had dinner with him, I've hung out
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: with him a few times. I've dinner with them several times,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: hung out with him in the studio. He showed us
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: that most recent documentary before it was released with Luigi,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: the guy who made it with him. I don't you know,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of people that are full of shit.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I meet a lot of people that are full shit.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: I've had people sit here in front of me and
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: then somewhere in the conversation, I'm like, Oh, this person's
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: not being honest. This is this is something they've got
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: an agenda. They're pushing something, or they're pretending they know
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: some things because it sounds good, but they don't really
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: know some things. I get real suspicious of people. I'm
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: not suspicious of him. It's weird. You know, he's obviously
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: incredibly intelligent and very well studied when it comes to science,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: when it comes to you know, whatever it is, whether
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: it's elements, particles. When you know he he understands what
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: he's talking about in a very deep way, and when
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: he's explaining these experiences, when he talks about this craft
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: and his experiences at S four, he seems to be
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: telling the truth. And then since then, we know first
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: of all, that no one knew about S four back then,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: but he did. He knew where it was. He knew
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: exactly where it was, and he knew about the flights
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: that take people out there. He had a total understanding
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: of Los almost labs. I mean, he went there, he
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: knew the people that worked there, he knew how to
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: get around the building when George Knapp took him there,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: he knew everything about the facility. Yet they claimed that
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: he never worked there, and then they found him on
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the employee roster, so he did work there, So they lied,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: they try to cover up. Why would they lie and
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: say that he didn't work there. Yeah, well, probably because
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: he was involved in some shit that they wanted to
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: keep secret.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob Blazar story.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And then when you see some of the footage that
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: was released, particularly after the New York Times story of
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. The footage that's released mirrors the way he
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: describes this craft operating. Yeah, and so how would he
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: guessed correctly in nineteen eighty nine?
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Those are all good points. So, yeah, I told you
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: last time I was on here that Tyler, right in
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: my American Cosmic book told me that he was the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: real deal, even though I had people who, you know,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Eric Davis, you know, telling me, no, Diana, this guy's no. No,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I believe Tyler. So everything that you say I agree with. Yeah,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're always going to have people when you
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: have a fantastic story like Boblazar story, You're always going
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: to have people that want to say that the guy's
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: full of shit, that there's something wrong, he's lying, it's
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: not true, it's fake.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person who
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: might know, right. So he's a physicist who studies this
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: and even briefs Congress on But no, So I don't know.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I tend to when Tyler tells me things, and now
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: that he's everything he said kind of has come true.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I believe him, you know, I believe that it's true.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: But if bomb Bazaar is telling the truth. It's so
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: disturbing the idea that there's a group of humans that
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: operate in our government that have information that the general
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: public does not have, and that they're the gatekeepers of
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: this information, and they've determined, for whatever reason that either
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: it's not wise to tell people or it wouldn't benefit
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: them to tell people. Like whatever it is, I think
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: it's a crime against humanity. I think if you're a
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: person that knows for or a fact that there's something
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: here other than us that either visits us, or exists
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: amongst us, or travels here from another dimension, I think
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: you have an obligation to tell people.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: But what if it's not that? What if it's actually
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: something we've created and we don't want anybody to know
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: about it, and Lazarre happened to find out and that's
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: why we don't want you know, I mean, think about
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: it from the perspective of people who are trying to
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: keep Americans safe. So just to push back a bit, Okay,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: you know what if that's it.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: So if that's the case, why would they bring a
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: guy in to tell them how does this work? Show
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: us how this works? Because that was his job.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: They brought him in and said tell us how this works.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: And he was like, well, what are you talking about?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Is his ours? It as an American flag sticker on it, Like,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: don't you know how it works? Why are you asking
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: me how it works? This seems kind of crazy. That's
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: not what you do. If you have super advanced technology,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: what you do is you bring in people to improve
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: it and make it better. You don't bring in people
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: and say how does it work?
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, wait, I have a couple of comments about that. Okay,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: So when I first started, I was I was aware
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: that people I wasn't aware as much as I should be,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: but I was aware that people in my position, you know,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: who are basically just doing like academic work on the
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: UFO belief, the rising UFO belief, might have people come
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: and give me disinformation.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: I have the same situation.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Of course you do. Yeah, so we have to be
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: that you're talking about discernment, like we have to be
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: super discerning about who's you know, our BS meter has
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: to like be really will working or working?
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, So, but the person who took me out to
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: the desert right with Gary during that time to an
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: alleged crash site, which you know, Jacques, then what goes
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: out there? He basically he also wants Gary to figure
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: out this debris. And so I'm thinking, we obviously don't
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: know what we have here. If he's at if it's
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: so legit, it could Okay, So here are my comments
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: about what you just told me about Lazarre. Either they're
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: setting up this situation where they're gonna have someone like
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: me and Gary who are like they're trying to back
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: engineer this right, and we're saying that publicly without any
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: kind of like knowledge that it could be disinfo. And
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: then they have Lazar, who we're gonna plant. Then they
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: do this like with benefits and stuff. They plant stuff
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: for Yeah, yeah, you know benefits. The guy who, uh
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: what he had stuff planted is in his computer? Do
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: you not know about him?
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: It's called Project Beta. This is a This is a
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: book a friend of mine wrote about I can't remember. Yeah,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: so I've heard his name. Yeah, you should read this
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: because this is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: So benefits believed that he had intercepted communications from alien spacecraft,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: had discovered a secret underground facility called Dulcy Base Dulci,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Dulcy base, Dulce Dulci. That he's I'd say, Dulce Dulce
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: a base managed by aliens in cooperation with the US government.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: His claims appeared in the popular press in the early
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighties. According to some sources, Benevitz was the target
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: of a government disinformation campaign that ultimately led to his
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: psychiatric hospitalization. Author Greg Valdez proposes that Benevitz was targeted
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: for his investigation of cattle mutilations. Valdez argues that the
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: mutilations were a government testing program looking at the after
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: effects of radiation from nineteen sixty seven's Project Gasbuggy, in
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: which an underground atomic device was detonated just twenty one
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: miles southwest of Dulci. They were testing the all to
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: avoid panicking the public.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, so this the problem with.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: That story is counter mutilations. Well wait, still, go.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: On, This is like completely not accurate.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: This is just a reef Wikipedia about it. There's probably
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: way more to the story.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, so you know Dody, Yeah, Dody, you
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: know Dody, right, the uh, the guy who went they
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: placed misinformation on his computer so that he believed that
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: he was.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: They placed it on his They.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Placed it on his computer. Sly, they went into his
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: house when he wasn't there and put it on there.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: And what did they put on his computer?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: They put on all this information about a like that
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: he was in touch with these aliens. So they basically
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: cultivated his belief that he was in touch with aliens.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: They did that purposefully. And Dody Dody's first name, Oh gosh,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I can no. He's really famous within upology because he's
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: a misinfo guy.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: So but he's a missinfo guy.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, intentionally placing misinformation out into the public about UFOs,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: which is a thing.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: He still alive.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's still.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Alive, and that's what he does. For sure.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: He used to ye Richard Richard dough Yeah, he for
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: sure does that.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: How do you know he doesn't?
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: What do you mean, everybody, I'm surprised you don't know
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: that I'm speaking.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Sometimes when I talk, I'm speaking for the entire public
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: that probably doesn't know what we're talking about. I think
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: it's probably good that we fill them in.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, sorry, Okay, So Richard dody Is has come
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: out and said this is what he does. And I
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: know people who know him like the entire group in
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: you know, the invisible college people with how and they
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: all know who he is. Okay, and Kit offered to
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: introduce him to me. By the way, Kate green so
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: and I and by the way, all of these people
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: are people who work on the used to work on
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: the program, a tip and so forth, uh, to study UFOs.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: But my point though here in talking about this, was
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: what if Lazarre was a person like me and Gary
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: who was being given information were credible. Right, He's not
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: so credible, but like you know, he's he's this person
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: that's been given information and placed out there so that
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: and he's just on the edge of credibility just so
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: you know, he's credible, but then he's not credible so
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: that he could be taken down if necessary. That's how
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: they get this information out there. Now, who am I
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: talking about?
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: They?
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: So what I'm trying to say is that what I've
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: observed is that the government isn't unified in this whole
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: UFO thing. They're fighting against each other. I try to
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: stay out of their crosshairs. Frankly. What they're doing, though,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: is that every time somebody comes out and says, you know,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: here are the new UFO files. I'm studying them and
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: so forth. Then they get taken out by like counterintelligence,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: so it's like intelligence and counterintelligence, so that it's really confused.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: The end result is total confusion. And you really have
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: to have an ability like to understand, like your discernment
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: has to be well developed.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Right, So I believe that I believe that there is
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: disinformation and deception. I think that's a great strategy. If
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: you want to make something look ridiculous, you take truth
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: and then you attach a bunch of fantastic, ridiculous claims
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: to that truth, and so that it dismisses all of it, right,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: because it's all in the same category, and it's all
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: easily debunked, like, oh, this is the same guy that
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: also said that, so this is nonsense, right.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Tyler used to say, where we hide
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: truth in a circle of confusion?
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which makes sense if they're trying.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: To Yeah, that's what they do, right, I mean I
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: don't know anymore like today, Like Jacques at one point
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: many years ago, decided that the field of euthology was
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: so confusing that he wanted to go back pat before
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution and do UFOs from a long time ago,
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: and he wrote Wonders in the Sky all about that
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: stopped at like I think it was like eighteen sixty
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: or something like that, and so he did that, and
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've done that too, Like I started
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: that way actually, and I wasn't looking for UFOs, so
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: I saw you know, so in a sense I understand
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: that move because.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: You say you weren't looking for UFOs. What were you
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: looking for?
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Oh? Well, my first the first part of my academic
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: career was about looking at souls from purgatory and Catholic
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: things like you know, what Catholics thought about things that
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: they experienced, like angel contact events. And that's when I
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: started to take a log of these aerial phenomena. I
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: did not know what they were, and so historically you
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: can see it all over the place in the records
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: that aren't digitized. So there are there are a lot
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: of records like people that say, oh, we had you know,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: AI has everything of human all human knowledge. No, have
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: they never been to an archive? And archive is a
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: really old library. There's a bunch of stuff there that's
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: not digitized and that's still human knowledge.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: And so what were you looking for?
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, Okay, so back then, this is in my book
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: on purgatory. I was looking. I was trying to find
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: out why purgatory was a thing for Catholics for many,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: many years, and then after the nineteen sixties people rarely
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: talked about it as much. So, by the way, I'll
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: get a lot of hate from people about this, because
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Catholics who do do devotions to souls in purgatory for
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: souls in purgatory will say, no, we still do this, Diana,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I know that, but the emphasis like Catholic churches used
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: to have a special place in the church for these devotions,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: they we don't have that here. And so I wanted
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: to know what happened. And so what I did was
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: they spent ten years going through records and archives all
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: over the place, and I found an answer to that.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: But I also found a bunch of aerial phenomena that
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: people didn't know. You know, they were like looking up
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: the sky two back then, and when they saw something
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: in the sky they couldn't like place, well, what is this.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: They'd interpret it as like a soul from purgatory. You know,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: we need to pray that soul back into purgatory, because
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: you know, sometimes these things would harass people. They'd come
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: down like orbs and harass people, and they just assumed
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: it was like a bad spirit or something like that.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: So I took all of this down because I thought
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: it was really strange and didn't I didn't want to
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: put it in my book, but I wanted to do
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: something with it at some point. So when I had not,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: I didn't believe in UFOs. I had never thought about UFOs.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: But I showed the log to a friend after my
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Purgatory book was published, and he said, oh, this looks
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: like Steven Spielberg films, and I thought he was crazy.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: So that's how I started studying ufosh. Yeah, that's how
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I got into it. So I was already doing that.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: Jacques was one of the first people I actually wrote
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: a hard letter to sent it through the mail to him,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: and that's how I met him.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: So Jock's books. What is interesting is these old stories
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: because the old stories they go back to seventeen hundreds
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: and eighteen hundreds, they mirror these UFO encounters.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's what Mike Work did.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this very similar pattern, which is also strange
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: because if you think about human beings. The exponential increase
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: in technological ability that we have just from the eighteen
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: hundreds to today far superior technology. But would you assume
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: that UFOs would also have this exponential increase in their
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: technological ability?
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: But yet the stories seem very similar, which is weird, right,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: because it's the same kind of craft and the same
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: kind of experiences and the same kind of like, wouldn't
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: they get better at it? Like, isn't there don't they
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: have the same ability to improve?
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: They might be better at it. They might be better
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: at it. We just are not good at ascertaining if
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: they have gotten better at it. But so, what if,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: and this is kind of what I've been exploring recently,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: what if the you know, our growth in technology is
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: pretty amazing. What if the only way they can actually
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: interface with us in any super meaningful way that's not creepy, right,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: what if it's through AI? What if that so if
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: religion was a way for us to communicate with non
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: human intelligences that kind of evolved in different places. Right,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: it's like a technology itself, right, Religion becomes these ways.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: You know, if you look around and you see, I
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: noticed that you had some cool Buddhist statues out there,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: all right, So if you look around at religion, what
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: is it that people in religion and do a lot
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: of them pray in certain ways? Like why are they
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: doing that? What is prayer? Anyway? Some of the so
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: you can see that there's something that they're trying to do.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: They're trying to interact contact. There's like a contact with
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: these and so what if AI, all of a sudden
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: is a different form of contact. And I'll give you
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: a reason why I think this way, or that I'm
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: speculating about it. When I started to ask the people
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: who should know, like Lou Alizondo and you know the
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: before that Tyler and you know how put off and
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: people like that, tell me what best if you were
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: to describe what it is we're dealing with, what best
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: is the description? And they would always point me in
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: the direction of science fiction, and they would say, read this,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: read that, and I was like science fiction, okay, and
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: I'd read it and it would inevitably point to like
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: a technology that helps interface humans with it so that
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: it's not us inter because perhaps you remember you talked
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: about those faculties that you know, human beings have these
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: faculties for understanding reality. But we can't understand reality in
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: its full reality iness, right, we can't do that because
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: we're constrained by the ways in which we perceive things.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: There's the perceptual faculties. What if AI becomes a perceptual
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: faculty for us and we're able then to you know,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: interact with it. So perhaps it has evolved and it's
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: helped us evolve too. So that's what I'm trying to say.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: That was a long answer to your comment.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us interact
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: with these things. Communicate, Okay, So as far as what
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: the government knows and then deception, why do you think
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: that they don't disclose all the information?
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: My personal opinion, Okay, so this is nothing that I
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: can point to. Of course I can't. You know, there's
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: no source for it. My personal opinion is because this
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: is above government. It's not theirs to disclose. The government
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: can't disclose something that's not theirs to disclose.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: And what do you mean by that?
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: I mean that there's probably a group of people that
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: have this information or have parts of the information. I
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: don't even know if one person has the whole story,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: it's super compartmentalized. But my intuition is that it's well,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: we know that there are parts of it that are
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: so highly classified, right we know that, And so yeah,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, they call presidents short timers and
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: so forth. They're they're not read in quote unk to
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: the program. So I would what if it's like it's
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: been around for a long time and the people who
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: know about it have been around for a long time too.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: What if that's the case. So after I after I
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: published American Cosmic in twenty nineteen, I met other people,
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: so you know, I met people who indicated to me
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: they just basically wanted me to not write anything else
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: about this stuff. They just were like, why don't you
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: just focus on what you you know, your Catholic stuff,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: and just like, don't do this.
• 54:34
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• 55:29
  Speaker 2: And who did that?
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, some people that I had met. So they
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: they're people that are associated with the government in the
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: fact that they're part of intelligence communities and you know,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: so I was interested in what they had to say
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: and to me what they didn't tell me anything, Joe,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: So I'm not going to tell any secrets or anything
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: that I don't have them, but they they indicated to
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: me that yeah, this is this is like nobody's going
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: to know about this. So people like, yeah, so that's
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: that's what I that happened after American CONSMIC part of
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: that went into encounters.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: But not so, how did they just express this to
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: you that they don't think that you should be talking
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: about this.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Well, they didn't express it that way. They just said
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: that my time would be better spent looking into other
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: aspects of religion.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Did you say why?
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Of course I wanted to know what did they say that, Well,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: they didn't really say, They didn't really answer that question,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: but I guess you could say that my experience with
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: them was my answer. My experience with them was that
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: this was something that people weren't gonna know about, and
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: that these secrets wouldn't be.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Told, so like they were a sense saying to you, you're
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: wasting your time pretty much. Yeah, we're not gonna tell anybody.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: You're not going to get any more information. What's out
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: there is out there and that's it. Yeah, Yeah, what's
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: your opinion like when you know? One of the things
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: I assume you saw the Age of Disclosure the documentary.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I thought was really interesting
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: and made sense in the Age of Disclosure was this
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: thought that if there are these hidden programs, they have
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: essentially misappropriated funds and lied to Congress in order to
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: fund these things, and all these things are huge crimes,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: and if they don't have amnesty, they're never going to disclose.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: This is like Loue Alizondo talked about, or all these
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: different people talked about. They like, the only way you're
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: ever going to get this information is by giving some
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: sort of mass amnesty to all these people that are
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: involved in these programs so they never have to worry
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: about being prosecuted. My problem with that is when I
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: hear something like that and you're talking about misappropriation of funds,
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: you're talking about lying to Congress, You're talking about enormous
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: amounts of money that are involved in these programs. Where
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: did that money go and did that money all go
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: to those programs or all those really ethical people involved,
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: or did a bunch of people get rich bullshitting about
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: this stuff? And is that why they're calling for amnesty
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: so that they don't have to worry about being prosecuted
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: for stealing money? And that's a lot of this, you know,
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: obfuscating all of this confusion, A lot of this misinformation
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: is because there's a lot of people that are in
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: deep shit if this gets disclosed.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: So basically they're in deep shit if they if the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: thing that gets disclosed is that they've been stealing money.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well listen, if you have complete total autonomy. You
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: get an enormous amount of money and you're working on
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: these programs. You know, no one knows where this money
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: is going. And we have a problem with that already, right,
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: like we have a problem with the Pentagon never passes budgets.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Where the money go? You know, that's like part of
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: the issue. What is this Jamie Long hitting UFO information
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: at the center of Trump push to free former officials.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Former employees can now share information with ARROW or the
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: Purse Task Force without fear of violating agreements. So this
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: is new.
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: Oh interesting, No one's officially come forward as far.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: As Okay, that's but look how it says that there
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: scroll back up. It says without violating agreements. That's not
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: the same thing I'm talking about.
• 59:53
  Speaker 5: It's not exactly but this they have NDAs and it's right,
• 59:56
  Speaker 5: that's another issue.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: But what that doesn't It doesn't exonerate them from lying
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: to Congress or misappropriated, misappropriating funds. That's part of the
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: problem is that if they have these programs that are
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: hidden and there's no congressional oversight, there's no they don't
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: have to be audited. If in all these in any
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: government program that has no oversight, You're gonna have waste,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: and you're probably gonna have fraud, and you're probably gonna
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: have a bunch of people that are, you know, essentially
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: beyond reproach. They have so much power and no oversight
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: at all, Like put a little bit over here, put
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: a little bit over there, a little bit of this,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit of that, next thing. You know, these
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: people are wealthy for some reason that you can't explain, Like,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: look what's going on with Congress with insider trading or
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: people that are making one hundred and seventy thousand dollars
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: a year worth hundreds of millions of dollars and no
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: one can explain why.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you got you have.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: To imagine that these people would all be tempted to
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: do that if they were involved in these programs. So
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: even if these programs are real, let's say it, let's
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: say the research, the back engineering research costs a billion dollars.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: Make it say it costs three billion. Where's that money going?
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: Where's it all going? Where'd it go? You know, it's
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: part of the problem with having no oversight. Yeah, no auditing,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: no oversight, and a bunch of people that have complete
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: ability to hide anything they're doing, including what they do
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: with the money. Yeah. Yeah, and so if they've been
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: doing that for decades, who knows how much fraud is involved? Yeah,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: you have to assume, like these are human beings and
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: human beings if they have that level of power and
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: that level of secrecy and no oversight at all, and
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: also they're working with defense contractors, they're working like yeah
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: over offshore accounts. There's a lot of weird shit goes on.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, it could be that. Do
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: you think it is?
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Yes? Really, yes, I think that's a factor.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, Right, I think.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: That's a major factor in this whole thing. All right,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: So I think that's the that's the I think that
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: is probably the reason why you have these calls for amnesty,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: because if you if you're talking about amnesty like embesty
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: for what do you guys do something? Would you do?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Misappropriation of funds? Lying to Congress? Okay, So you don't
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: want to be in trouble for misappropriating money, and you
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: don't want to be in trouble for lying to congress.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: What if that does that include all the fraud that
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: potentially could have taken place and I'm not accusing anyone
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: of fraud. I don't know anything. This is pure tinfoil hat.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Let's just talk shit, that's all this is.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So you think it's just basically a big
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: like almost like a Ponsy scheme.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: I think that has to be an aspect of it,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: because that's an aspect of it, and almost all aspects
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: of government.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I guess just think of.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: The problem that was exposed with DOGE with the NGOs,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: where you find out that there's literally billions of dollars
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: gets distributed and there's no record of it, there's no receipts.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: A bottom of that article here.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: During the same event, former Air Force intelligence officer Grush
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: renewed his allegations that the secret UAP programs had operated
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: outside normal congressional oversight, calling it a real fraud, waste
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: and abuse issue there it is, and claiming his investigation
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: uncovered slush funds to the tune of billions of dollars
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: per annum for these activities. The Pentagon has disputed Grush's
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: central claims, and Arrow has said its investigations found no evidence,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: no verified evidence of estratrestrial technology or credible evidence that
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: the government has secretly recovered or reverse engineered craft of
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: non human origin, but yet there he has talked about
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: programs that he has been read in on that are
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: back engineering programs.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, so like it is someone's life.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, to call it a slush fund, I think
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: is really an interesting term. Is that indicates that that
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: they're not doing anything.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Right doesn't necessarily it could indicate that they are doing something,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: but they're also profiting wildly off of this something that
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: they're doing because they don't have any oversight, which is
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: when you get creepy people that have incredible power like that,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: that's just normal. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. What's more absolute
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: power than your You have a massive amounts of money,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: a blank check, and you're also you're in the fucking
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: super secret, top secret group. You're in the club of
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: the people that know the wink in the NOD, and
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: you're going into these fucking vaults in the middle of
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: the mountain and you're looking at an alien spacecraft and
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: you've got bodies that are informaldehyde or whatever the fuck
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: they're doing with them. You know, you would think those
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: guys could do whatever the fuck they want.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's humans, yeah, yeah, and there are men.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are men that are probably very ambitious and
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: wealthy and they want to be more wealthy, and they
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: got all this money coming in and they're working on
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: these programs, and then they can occasionally show you some stuff. Look,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: this is what we've discovered, this is what we've figured out,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: this is what we can apply to military technology.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, so maybe okay, so maybe that's it.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no accusations. I'm just saying, if you had to
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: look at it from the least charitable perspective, you have
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: to say, that's probably an aspect of what we're dealing with.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: And that seemed to me when I watched Age of
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Disclosure from a cynical perspective, like what is this? What
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: is this request for amnesty? What's the amnesty? Is a
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: weird thing to say, you know, like, if you're people
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: get suspicious when you have amnesty, why do you want
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: to interesting? Yeah, you're worried about like are they really
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: going to prosecute people that have misappropriated funds and lied
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: to Congress because they have alien spacecrafts? Is that really
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: what Congress is gonna do? Now, they're gonna go after
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: these people and say, look, I know you finally did
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: tell us that we have been visited and that we
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: have these down daily crafts, but we're gonna put you
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: in jail because you didn't tell us before and because
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: you lie to Congress and you use these funds to
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: back engineer these crafts. Does that really make sense that
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: they would put these people in jail for these top
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: secret government programs?
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: No?
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, I agree.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: I just think if you just factor in people, factor
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: in people and blank checks, I always say someone's getting
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: It's not like these are the most benign, altruistic people
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: that they're like, they're super charitable and they only want
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: to do the right thing for humanity, and they're very
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: comfortable with their meager government salary. Yeah yeah, probably not
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: right right, Probably when you think about human nature and
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: people when they have access to money, especially that kind
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: of money, that's crazy money.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: All right, So if I can offer my speculation, totally speculative,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: totally okay, all right, this kind of talk, okay, Okay,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: So remember that I start out not caring about UFOs
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: at all, not believe in nothing like that, right, just
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: kind of doing my boring Catholic scholarship stuff. Right, Well, yeah,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't think so, but you know, geeky stuff. Okay,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: not interested in that scene. All of a sudden become
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: realize that there's this historical continuity right in the records.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: And there's physical evidence.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's physical evidence, which.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Is important for people to know that. Maybe if they've
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: never heard this subject before, and this is the first
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: podcast they've listened to. Well, we're talking about Gary Nolan
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: and some of the things that they've found at these
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: crash sites. We're talking about alloys that you can't make here. Yeah,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: there's some thing about them where they're layered at an
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: atomic level. It's there's some weird shit to them.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: That's right. And so I try to keep myself autonomous
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: from the ufology narrative either proposed by the government. By
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: the way, a lot of people are like it's government sponsored.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of government sponsored stuff out there that
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: you're getting. None of my stuff is government sponsored. Like,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I did this totally autonomously on my own, still do completely.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't have a publicist, you know, I'm
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: not like out there doing it like that. That said,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: I've met a lot of people and I've seen a
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: lot of things now since twenty twelve about the topic,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: and so if I were to speculate about it, and
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: let me just describe some of the things that come
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: into my brain every once in a while when I'm
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: thinking about it, I'm like, Okay, you know how Eric
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: Weinstein talks about like he would know the smart people,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: He would know the physicists who would be on this case, right,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: he would know these guys because he knows physics. He's
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: super intelligent, you know. But I don't think he does
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: know them. And part of the reason I say that
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: is because this is in twenty fourteen or so, so
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: a long time ago. When I'm you know, when you're
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: doing something for so long and you're in this community
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: of people and you can't make stuff up, like stuff happens,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: you're like, that really happened. And one of the things
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: that happened was that I got to see that there
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: were some you know, laboratories associated with the government that
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: people couldn't get into.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: It was like you can go to those and the
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: people that worked there were the best of the best,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: like the laser people, the people who knew lasers and
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: who you know, they were better than anybody at Yale.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: They were better than anybody at Harvard or Stanford or
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: anything like that. They were the best. Through knowing me,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Gary got to go there, so I have witness, you know.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: And so because they were cultivating him, they were trying
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: to figure out if he could actually help with with
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: figuring out what this was. So those things are things
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: that I noted and I you know, kept in my
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: file in my brain. Right. Okay, well that's weird there.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Think about people like Harold Malgram, right, So you know,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: he had been a he's a person who is was
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: an official to advisor to a couple different presidents in
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: the capacity of military, so super high level clearance and
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: everything like that. He had been recruited. He was a
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: physicist at Cornell. He'd been recruited when he was twenty seven.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: So this happens. So people do get taken into these
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you call him programs or whatnot,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: and they do work, and they have these clearances and
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: they're hidden just like they're hidden. Sometimes they're given fake
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: job titles and so forth. People wouldn't think. I see
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: people online now saying oh that person doesn't have that
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: clearance because they had this job. How do you know,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: Like seriously, how do you know that? Because the government
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: is really good at hiding these kinds of things. So
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: over the years, that was a long time ago. When
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: this happened to me twenty fourteen, I started to form
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: an idea, you know, And it wasn't just that, it
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: was other types of things that I learned that there's
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: something going on for sure, and it is what they're saying,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: but maybe it's not. I don't know what they're reverse engineering,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: if it's anomalous, you know, from another planet or what
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: it is. I do know that they're they're doing something
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: and they've been doing it and they're probably going to
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: continue to do it, and that I don't think they're
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: going to share.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and why would they, especially if it affects national defense.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, and so part of what's happening now,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: you know, with a rich people getting into this and
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: trying to get the people in the program to come out,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: because that's what that looks like when David Gresh talks
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: about that, I'm thinking they're just trying to get these
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: people in the program to come out, and you know,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: so they can they can get to technology, right, And
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: that's going to happen.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: So what do you think happens? Do you think that
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: they find very talented physicists that are in universities and
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: they have these outreach programs where they look for these
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: people that are very talented, and they recruit them very
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: early on.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: I think so. I think that they get recruited really young.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Twenty seven is probably old to get recruited.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: Which probably makes sense. Get them as early as possible
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: to the program before they get involved in any sort
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: of commercial venture or any other company.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: So in my second book that I've written about it,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: called Encounters, there's a chapter called The Children of the
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: Invisibles where I talk about this potential speculative group and
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: his total speculation.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: Have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on there's a particular
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: upstate university, Upstate New York University that has a completely
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: over qualified physics department that's also attached to a hedge
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: fund that does Bernie made Off type numbers that don't
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: make any sense at all.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: No, I didn't. I haven't seen that one.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's he talks about it and this one particular university.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: He is keen on this might be something because it's like,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: it doesn't make any sense that the insanely talented physicists
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: are all in this one place and no real research
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: comes out of it, no real nothing gets done. But
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: yet they're also attached to this hedge fund that does
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: these insane numbers that don't make any sense at all,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: which is a great way to just funnel money through
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: and keep these programs running that are completely top secret.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: And these people aren'tblishing, they don't have anything. These insanely
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: talented physicists are not really getting anything done.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: They get fired at my university if they weren't publishing.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Right, there's something. There's something weird about it, he says,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: and he keeps pointing to this one. Do you remember
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: that what the Stonybrook and Renaissance technologies. Yes, that's it.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: He's He's like, if there's something there, if there's a
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: there there, that's where it's at. Yeah, which makes sense,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: like if you had some big time program, Like I
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: know a guy who was a professor, so he was
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: teaching at a university. I probably shouldn't say what he's teaching.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: He was also a CIA operative, So he would literally
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: be involved in fucking gunfights and then a week later
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: he would be you know, they would extract it, take people.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: They do all this crazy CIA super secret operative shit.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: A week later he's teaching university courses. Yeah, like Indiana
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Jones on steroids, Like this guy was like really doing that,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: which is like whoa. Okay, So if you have this
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: university where you have these people that are teaching these classes,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: like and they're probably looking for super talented physicists that
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: are coming up to recruit into these programs. But what
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: they're doing, as far as their you know, air quotes
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: research that's public is nonsense. And what they're what they're
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: really doing is working on something, probably some sort of
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: very novel propulsion system. And that's what Weinstein thinks. And
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: he thinks that a lot of this stuff that people
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: are seeing in this guy is probably ours.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: So that's right, So say it's ours and say he's right. Okay.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: So but I guess my point is, are you you know,
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: then shouldn't that be okay? Shouldn't we be okay with that?
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: Because isn't aren't they aren't we Americans? Aren't they like
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: helping us?
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: Well? If that's the case, yes, certainly, why don't.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: Why wantn't we try to get them to come out
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: and you know and like force the valance, Well.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: We certainly don't want that information to get to China
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: or Russia if there is some sort of a race
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: to develop a novel propulsion system. Who wasn't Jamie that
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: was in here that was saying that one of the
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: uses for this technology would be instantaneous delivery systems of
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: nuclear weapons. So you know, when we're talking about these
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: propulsion systems that essentially they're folding space, folding space and
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: time where they can instead of going from point A
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: to point B, which is like, you know, a thousand
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: light years, instead of doing it in however much time
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: it would take to travel that through, even if you're
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: going the speed of flight, you go instantaneously because you're
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: essentially folding space and time and just appearing in this
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: new place. Well, you could do that with a bomb
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: and so instead of like a missile having to fly
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: to Beijing or Moscow, it instantaneously arrives and detonates. And
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: that this was one of the proposed uses of this technology,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: which is fucking terrifying. Yeah, that these knuckleheads are taking
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: this incredibly potent technology that these extraterrestrials have used to
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: get here from another planet, and we were like, will
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: that be a dope way to deliver a bomb? And
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: then they're working on that. Yeah, but it's also isn't
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: it their responsibility to do that? Because if China figures
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: out how to do that, or Russia figures out how
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: to do that, or Iran figures out how to do that,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: you've got a real problem.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: So this was what remember you asked me those people
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: that I met like after American Oswick is published, all right,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: so this is pretty much the line they gave me
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: was that, Diana, it's best to talk about this stuff
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: about morality and you know, Christian stuff and so forth,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: because look, what we're doing is we're keeping us safe
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: in the United States. And do you really want a
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: non ally to have, you know, an enemy to have
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: this technology? Like, well, no, of course not, you know,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, so, yeah, what can you say to an
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: argument like that other than well, yeah, that would be terrible.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Well, if I believe them, and if they're being if
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: it's true and they're just looking out for the interest
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: of America. One hundred percent. I'm with them. I get it,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: I understand. I mean, I don't know.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: I know. That's the problem is that I'm never going to.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: Point fingers and go fuck those guys. They need to
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: tell us everything, right, So the problem is you're telling
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: everybody in the world everything. Then you're telling China everything,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: You're telling Russia everything. Yeah, yeah, I get it, and
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: I get that. That's why if say, the Roswell crash
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: of nineteen forty seven, if that is legit, and if
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: they really did fly it out to Right Air Force
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: Base in two separate planes just in case one of
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: them crashed, if that's really the case, and the lore
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: is that Truman met them there and that they disclosed
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: that they have this craft and they have this material.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: You have so many different people that were at that
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: crash site that have very similar stories. And then you
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: also have this very shortly after that, you have technologies emerge.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: You have fiber optics, transistors. A lot the weird shit
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: that's attached to them in terms of like the provenance
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: of like how these technologies were evolved and developed, there's
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: some sketchy shit involved in that. And the allegation is
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: that this is something that's been reverse engineered, and then okay,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: well if you don't want that getting to someone else, Right,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: if we are involved in conflicts with other nations, and
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: we most certainly are, why would you got to keep
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: that stuff secret? So I get that argument as well.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: And if so, if extraterrestrial technology is real and that
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: we do have crafts and saying extraterrestrial is just a
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: placeholder word for whatever it is, interdremensional, whatever it is,
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: some super advanced non human intelligence created technology. If it
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: does exist, yeah, I would say from a national security perspective,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: you have you've got to keep that under wraps, especially
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: if we don't truly understand it. If we don't truly
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: understand it, we're not really capable of making it. Yeah.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: I mean the way Lazarre describes the craft itself, it
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: was like it was three D printed. Well, there was
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: no three D printing in nineteen eighty nine, right, Well
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: there is now, right that we know of, But there
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: is now. But that's the thing, is this that we
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: know of. There's only so far you can go with that.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: That line of thinking is when you go back far enough,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: it doesn't work. So like you go back to nineteen
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: forty seven, nineteen forty seven, you're dealing with propeller planes, okay,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: propeller planes, and then also novel propulsion systems that can
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: instantaneously travel from one place to another. You know, they
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: can go like what happened with the tik Tak where
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: they have it on radar going from fifty thousand feet
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: down to sea level in less than a second. So
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: that's that's technology that we had in two thousand and four.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: That doesn't seem likely, right, and it might be the case,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: But then you go far enough back to like like
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: the case what was the guy's name, Kenneth Arnold those sightings,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: which was what forty seven? Okay, well that's the same like.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: A couple months, like right after Roswell before I can't remember.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: So that's there's no way we didn't have that technology.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: Then there's no way they would have such superior advanced
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: technology that our fighter jets looked like toys. They just
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: whiz past them.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I hear that, but I don't know if you've
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: seen the images of Kenneth Arnold's plane, but it looks
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: like that German fighter plane. So it looks exactly like that.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe we reverse engineered that and had it. I don't know.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying that.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: Such an Arnold's plane was only capable of going like
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: how fast? It wasn't that fast and this thing, these
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: these crafts were going way faster. Yeah, this is what
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: he said. He's like, he's got a fucking propeller plane.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: I did just look up.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 5: The first turbojet engine plane was nineteen forty one.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, whoa yeah?
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Were they using that for fighter jets back.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: Nineteen forty seven? Was there's them flying around World War Two?
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: In forty seven they had fighter jets that had propeller turbojet. Yeah,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: but turbojet is a propeller. And here's the like, if
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: you fly I've flown in turbojet propeller planes before, and
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: they're pretty dope. Is it? Pictures coming up? Oh okay,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: so that does look like a jet engine. It's definitely
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: something different, right, was that? What did the planes look
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: like back then? So pull up a fighter jet from
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven? See those are well?
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: Wait, the thing that it was a it was a
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: specific plane that looked exactly like what he saw. It
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: was a German plane.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: Well that one that Jamie just pulled up is pretty
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: crazy because it's circular.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: No, I know, but the other ones looked I mean
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: literally exactly. They were called, uh, the wing planes because
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: they look like wings.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: Basically I understand. But even that those right there, those
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: are still propeller planes. That is what Kenneth Arnold says.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: He saw that's totally different, like whatever the fuck that is,
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: it's crazy, And he saw that thing skipping across the sky.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Jamie.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: If you say the idea that our best it's h
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: o something. Okay, the idea that our best shit is
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: propeller planes. But yet we also have these things with
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: no visible means of propulsion that are all flying at
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: one thousand miles an hour or whatever it was, several
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: thousand miles an hour.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: It couldn't have been quiet either, right.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just weird. It's if you go back far enough,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense that there's superior technology that's not
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: being utilized ubiquitously across the entire military.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that most likely if they have something
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: that they want. Okay, so this is again speculation, right right,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I entertained that I was eighty years
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: ago no, I know that I entertained the possibility that
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: they had some pretty amazing stuff.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: I don't, okay, I don't. I just don't think that's possible.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: I know that we still have it. And that's what.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: Maybe today, I would say, in twenty twenty six, eighty
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: years later, with all the technological advancement, maybe there's some
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: crazy shit that they have today. And I bet there is,
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: like the luck of this thing.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 5: This is a German bomber, that is yes, whoa all right,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 5: is that real?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: But that's just a witness. No, no, that's not it's
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: not a photograph. No, they have a photograph of those.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: I am not kidding.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: I was trying to just start with that.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so look at the upper left hand corner. It's
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: a secret Nazi UFO.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they had photographs.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's a photograph.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's not.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: I'm just to be okay. Well it does it say
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: up there? It says a Wharton.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: The German prototype playing from nineteen forty five. So literally
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: you were built.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: See I'm telling you, Joe, this looks exactly like Arnold's.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: It does UFO, It really does. A jet powered flying
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: wing craft that literally looks exactly like it.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: If I'm right about that, then you should like listen
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: to my speculations.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Right, But how fast did this go? Let's see, that's
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: pretty dope.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: Could have been pushing it to the limit.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: I can't believe they had something like that. You know,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: how are the Germans fucking advanced? I know, and so
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: evil at the same time, Like what the hell okay designed?
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: Where is it.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 3: Five hundred and sixty miles an hour?
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: M And how fast was Kenneth Arnold's craft able to
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: go six hundred and twenty one miles an hour? Wow?
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: So you know he saw these information. So we were
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: most likely doing something with those.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: We what you mean, the United States? So you think
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: that we had acquired that technic, We did.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: We acquired it, we were utilizing.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: It, right, So Operation paper Clip we brought over a
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: bunch of these Nazi scientists. And so you think that
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: what he saw was these Nazi crafts? Yeah they had, Yes.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: I think so, But that doesn't take out a lot
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: of weirdness about it, because he also had a lot
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: of very strange anomalist experiences, men in black experiences, paranormal experiences.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Arnold do, Yeah, so yeah, and to him he
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: interpreted this as being religious.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: Is there a video of that German thing?
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 5: Just looking at the first comment says it should be
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 5: noted this is a full scale mock up made for
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 5: radar testing by North of Grumman for a net Geo documentary,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 5: not the actual HO two nine.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: That picture I put up.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: Oh interesting, is there any actual documented photographs of the
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: H two two nine?
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm gonna go with. If there was only three.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: Of them in snars, so we know that jets existed
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: in forty one and so, and then the Nazis had
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: really advanced technology in terms of automobiles, in terms of
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: engineering rocketry, they were way more advanced than us, which
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: is why we took all those Nazi scientists from Operation
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: paper Clip and ignored their war crimes so that they
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: could work for NASA.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: They had an important weapon two that we never talked about. That.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: We also took a form of propaganda. They had propaganda,
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: specific form, not the kind that you can google and
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: see Nazi propaganda and stuff like that, like a really
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: effective form of propaganda.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: In what way would they have?
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: So that's another thing.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: So this is an actual photograph of it. Whoa. So
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: if you saw that thing flying through the sky in
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven, you would probably think that's from another planet.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: That totally looks like a space I remember after September
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: eleventh in two thousand and one, I was filming Fear
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: Factor and we were in southern California near what is
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: the base that's out there? Is it Edwards? We're near
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: one of the Air Force bases, and I saw a
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: stealth bomber fly overhead and it looks like it's from
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: another planet. It looks so crazy. We stopped filming. We
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: were like, dude, what the fuck? It looks like Darth
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: Vader's flying it. You know, it's so weird. Yeah, it
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem like it's ours. Now, I know it is,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: and I know they exist, But if I didn't and
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: I saw that, so you got to assume also that
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: if I saw it in two thousand and one, maybe
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: they had it in nineteen ninety nine. Maybe they had
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: it in nineteen eighty nine, Maybe they had it in
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: seventy nine, Maybe they had something like that.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 5: So Arkle says that we've found that prototype in Germany,
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 5: brought it back and then this is what North are
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 5: potentially made after.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: So this is a preparing. This is a wing powered
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: by propellers. Though we did know how to make those
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: jets right, and so they probably put the jets on
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: it later. But fuck, that looks alien. So when you
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: think of the Kenneth Arnold sighting and you think of
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: the description that he had, it's very similar to that.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: So that might have been it, But that doesn't that
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't jive with the tic Tac. The tic TAC's bananas.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: It is like that the speed that that thing moved
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: every human being inside of it. If there was a
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: person flying in that, they would have got turned into
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: jello just from the g forces.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: That's right, that's right.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: Also, there's no material that we have that could survive
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: that kind of speed.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, see this came out and those I
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 5: think this came out in those alien documents or one
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 5: of the dumps.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a lot of people have said
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: that it's Lockheed Martin created that thing, and that is
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: exactly what it looked like, including those weird things at
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: the bottom, those weird things at the bottom whatever, that's
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: those little whatever, those little tube looking things at the
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: bottom of it. That is part of what they described
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: when they said they saw the tic TAC. And there
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: have been people in the air Quotes Disclosure movement that
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: have said openly that thing was a Lockheed Martin device.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's right.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that's the case. What what is that and
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: how's that thing moving? And how's it moving that way
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and four? Yeah, and if Lockheed Martin
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: has this kind of technology twenty two years ago, yeah,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: that that baffles me and that defies your imagination just
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: runs wild. Like.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: So that's my point is that you know, if if
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: this is happening, and this has been happening, it's like
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: it's well, this is something that's kept well guarded. And
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: even I don't think even with the disclosure today, I
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: don't think that push is gonna is going to be effective.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: Is right? I see what you're saying. So that thing
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: from the disclosure dump from Look.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 5: I'm right now, what is the perplexity about it?
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: It's not a hoax really, or it's certainly a wait,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 3: almost certainly a hoax.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: Oh how dare you perplexity? But what is perplexity getting
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: this information from? So it says what the story claims
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: the documents circulating on social media since August of twenty
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: twenty five reports to be a leaked Lockheed Martin CIA
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: flight manual for a craft called the CL nine five
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: seven Gen two nickname tic tac Per. The claims Instagram
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: skunk works post.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: Someone made it on Reddit.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: It says okay, of course, Jason Wild on x Reddit
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: forensic breakdown to Canada YouTube analysis, No providence. Nothing in
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: the Freedom of Information Act archives, the CIA CRESS database,
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: Black Vault or National Archive references CL nine five seven
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: or Orbit Lance Real Black programs, ox cart have blue
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: Tactic Blue all eventually left paper trails, wrong designation scheme
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: Lockheed CL blank blank blank, California temporary design numbers are
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: documented CL two eighty two, CL twelve hundred, Lancer, et cetera,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: and CL nine five seven doesn't appear in any credible
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: listing document artifacts analysts flag typography, formatting and classification marking
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: inconsistencies versus real technical orders, plus anachronistic F twenty two
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: references and an odd CIA series aircraft phase it phrasing
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: hm hm.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: It's only been found on social media nowhere else.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: Well, then it's real. Don't you know that X is
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: the news. Now, don't you pay attention God, Jamie. Sorry,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: I want to believe. I want to believe that Lockeed
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: Martin has that.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: Well, we always have Travis Walton.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like Travis is one guy with one story.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: Very interesting.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of them though.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of weird stories, and there's a
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: lot of weird stories of what Travis. The thing is.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: The real problem is once it becomes iconic, right, like
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: once there's once there's once there's a story that gets
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: out there, like Betty and Barney Hill. You hear that story,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: and then that story becomes a part of folklore. That
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: story becomes a part of people's imagination. And when you
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: start thinking about grays, you immediately start thinking about Whitley Streiber, right,
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: you start thinking about communion, you start thinking about close encounters.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: So you already have these images in your mind of
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: what these things are supposed to look, all right.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a part of the problem, right kind of. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: that is a part of the problem. I was going
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: to go down another path, Okay, okay, so about reverse
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: engineering stuff, like how does this work? All right? So
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I came to like understand
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: was that a couple of people told me about this,
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: and it was nothing that they intended to tell me,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: by the way. But I asked, so, you know, Tyler
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: was doing this reverse engineering type of thing. He's trying
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: to find people to help him with this. And he
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: would have what he thought were or alleged UFO debreed
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: that he had found at various places like in New
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: Mexico and so forth, and then what he had to
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: do was he had to get together a group of
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: engineers that could actually reverse engineer it. And he would
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: tell them. He wouldn't say, this is a UFO or
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: this is you know, something found in the desert. No, no,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: he would say, this is China's or this is Russia's,
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: and we need in order to keep our you know,
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: dominance or whatnot, we need to get this reverse engineered pronto,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: and that this lie would then motivate these guys okay,
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: and that they would reverse engineer this and he would
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: come up with something okay. So later on I would
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: listen to how and how would give these these talks
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: how put off? By the way, Who's who's one of
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: the people that is interested in the UFOs and knows
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: a lot about them, And so he gave this talk
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: at the inaugural Soul Conference, and I was there, and
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: so I was listening to him, and to me, it
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: sounded like what he was saying was exactly what Tyler
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: was saying. That he was saying, we have this, you know,
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: but we don't actually know how to do this, how
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: to back engineer this. So we're going to give it
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: to this talented group of people and we're going to
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: tell them that this was already made, but a non
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: ally like an enemy had it. So basically by telling
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: them this, they would then like in a sense, do
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: kind of like a trick on their minds and they
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: would actually reverse engineer it. They would reverse engineer something
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: that he said already existed. So in a sense, it
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: was like not only working with time in a weird
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: way or like kind of like you know, projecting what
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: was going to be in the future, telling them it
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: already had been done. So that made me think, this
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: is like the propaganda that I'm talking about and that
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: you just started to talk about. Like if we could
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: then on a mass scale tell people that we have
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: something or this is the case, maybe there would be
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: a critical like mental construct and people would actually do
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: something a rise to the occasion or something like that.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: That could have been propaganda or the space race, right,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: that could have been like the moon landing stuff like
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm not saying that didn't happen, by the way,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: I'm saying that, you know, part of it was a
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: way to get Americans to win the space race. We
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: had to already believe that we want it right. In
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: order to create this stuff, we already have to believe
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: that someone else created it. It's like the five minute mile.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, you see what I'm saying, So four minutes right, yeah, right,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: maybe it's a five minute to me, the women's five
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: minute mile, right, No, the four minute mile.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: So we already had to believe that it had been
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: done in order to.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: Do it right, because once someone broke it, then a
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: bunch of people broke it.
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So oh and then I was
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: asked by people who are in the government to speak
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: to interagency like people as scientists, And so they would
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: have me talk to these scientists, like fifty of them
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: right from various parts of the government and basically tell
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: them the story of like American cosmic and I was like, okay,
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: I'll do that.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: Why.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: You know, they didn't say anything about why. But I
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: started to think maybe this is like a how put
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: off thing, or maybe this is like a tyler thing
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: that I'm doing this for them so that their brains
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: can think this has already been done. We'd better do this.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: M So when when you say the sophisticated propaganda that
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: the Nazis have that we took this technology from them, like,
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: what do you mean by that? Like? What was their tech?
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: What was unique about their propaganda?
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: All Right? So I don't know exactly, but I do
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: have some ideas. And two of the ideas I have
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: are what I just told you that if you can
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: see the population with images and belief, you know, that
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: will impact their belief you can change it. Okay, there's
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: that one, But there's also the one that you know
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: Bill Cooper's book a Horse, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. So
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: in Behold to Pay a Horse, he talks about the
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: quiet weapons, where he's talking about basically technology and how
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: technology is going to engineer consent. And he's talking about
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: this and I don't know exactly.
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: When he wrote that engineer consent.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, engineer consent of the population about certain things. And
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: you do that through utilizing social media. Well he's not
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: calling it that, he's calling it quiet weapons. But you know,
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: back then putting stuff on TV and you know, creating
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: a narrative that people buy into and believe. And he
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: said that this is going to you see this, by
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: the way, Arthur C. Clark in his book, in his
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: short story Childhood's End or no, it's a book where
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: you know, he's talking about aliens, where these aliens are
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: engineering humanity through technology, through social media and things like that.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: So this could be what the Nazi propaganda the weapon
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: is that it could be used as weapon, but it
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: could also.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: Be used for good, and it could be used to
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: facilitate technological innovation by telling them that it's already been done.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you know. When I was I was I
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: ran in college. So I was a college runner for
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: track and a cross country and I had a great
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: team of coaches who would teach us sports psychology, and
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: part of what we would do would be we would
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: already see us winning. We would already see and they
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: would also tell us so and so ran this, you
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: know you could do this. So in a sense they
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: were utilizing that on our team and it was good,
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: it was you know, helpful.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: Hm. Right, Well, it's very important your mindset, especially when
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: it comes to athletics, because there's so much that's involved
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: in competition that's psychological.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: Do you think that that also is the case when
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: it comes to technological innovation.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: Definitely.
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: You have to believe that it can be done, it
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: has been done, and that it helps you figure out
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 2: the pathway.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is what I'm telling you. So with
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: the people that I just talked about, we're talking about Tyler, right,
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: we're talking about then how even though I don't think
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: he'd say that that's what he was doing or talking about,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: that's what I interpreted his talk to be. And he's talking,
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: you know, he's he has some really interesting ideas about
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: physics and matter and reality and so forth. And then
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: later on, Yeah, that's what I think. You know, I
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: think that that works. That actually works.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: It makes sense that it would that the blocks that
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: people have in their mind about what is and what
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: is not possible, that if you say, not only is
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: it possible, it's already been done.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so yeah, so I don't know, like when
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: we start to talk about like the various things that
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about, like you know, if this is
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: real and that happened and so forth, maybe that's what
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: the they're trying to get us not to talk about
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: the really interesting things, like maybe that you know that
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: form of what could be a form of mind control.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: I understand that. But when it comes to technology that
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: could have military applications, and that we've had all these
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: military conflicts, you would imagine that you would see some
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: of this stuff being utilized, and there's no real evidence
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: that there has been, Like there's no evidence from Iraq
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: or Afghanistan, from any of those conflicts that we had
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: something that moves fast than the speed of light, and
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: that we have weapons that are indescribable. Until Nicaragua so
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: or Venezuela rather the Venezuelan contact where conflict rather where
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: we abducted the president and we came in and incapacitated
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: everybody with some sort of a sound weapon like that.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: All stuff sounds like super science fiction y and when
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: you realize like that is real, they absolutely did that.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: So they have had something for a long time that
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: can do things that are beyond our understand of what
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: we thought was possible. Yeah, Yeah, how put Off had
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: that crazy story about when he was working for the
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: Bush administration where they brought him in with a bunch.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: Of other scientists I know about that years.
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they said, we are going to disclose that
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: there are alien crafts and that we have biological remains
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: of creatures from some other place. What is the negative
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 2: and what are the positive impacts of this? And I
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: want you to put a numerical value on each one
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: of them and tell us what the result is. And
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: all the people that they brought in all had similar conclusions.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: When they said, how's it going to impact government, How's
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: it going to impact religion, How's it going to impact
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: society or economy? There's way more negative than there is positive,
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: And so they decided not to disclose. And when he
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: tells that story, just like God that tracks at tracts
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: like that, they would do that. They would say, maybe
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: we should tell everybody, but this is going to be
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: the impact. My belief is that it's a temporary impact
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: and that society is going to continue to function because
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: it's pragmatic. We're gonna have to we're gonna have to
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: have an economy, you're gonna have to have government. You're
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: gonna have to have all these things while also knowing
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: we're not alone, and maybe that would help dissolve some
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: of the conflicts that we have. Because if we think
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: that we're the only gang in town, and then there's
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: another gang over there and we're duking it out with them,
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: if we find out, well, actually there's a gang from
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: another planet, that's that's the Reagan speech Nation that all
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: the UFO dorks. Oh, he's telling us something that if
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: we were faced with a threat from another world, how
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: quickly we would put aside our differences.
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: Yep, that's right. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm with you.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: I think that people won't be they won't go into shock, and.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: But it would temporarily disrupt everything and that therein Laes.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: The problem. The problem is the collapse of the economy,
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: global trust in government. Like if the government really isn't
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: the people that are in control, If there really is
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: something are above and beyond the human government that has
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: some sort of an influence on world events, that's that's
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: that's real. It's tough to vote in a congressman that
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: says they're going to enact change when we're being observed
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: by extraterrestrial life that can read your mind.
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true. I don't know if
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: I agree with you on that. I think that it's all.
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: I think people will be all right. I mean, we're
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: having the government say today, right, I mean jd Vance
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: on your podcast just said it's their demons, right, that's
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: but I mean.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: If jd Vance doesn't know, aren't we all fucked? If
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: he just thinks that they're demons like what he doesn't
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: seem I think he says he's too busy to like
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: really dig into the UFO stuff, which I kind of
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: get and understand but also don't because if that was obviously,
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: I'm never going to be vice president. But if I was,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: I'd be like the first thing I would look into
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: as soon as I got into my desk, I'd be like,
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: where they have everything? I'm going there. I'm going there.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna say, you have to show me, and I'll
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: keep my mouth shut, but I need to know, like
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: you need to show me. We need to know, like
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: what we I need to know what position we're at
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: in order to move forward. I don't know, I need
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: to know where are we operating from are we operating
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: from a position where human beings are the advanced dominant
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: intellect on earth or not? Because if it's or not,
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: that changes everything.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: But you're rare. You're the rare person who, like most
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: people in the United States believe in God, like there
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: are more than eighty percent of people who believe in God.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: They think God runs it right, God is a non
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: human intelligence, but that.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: Doesn't they're not mutually exclusive. Like God could exist and
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: also intelligent life from elsewhere could also exist.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: That's right, and that's why most people won't be shocked
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: or upset. I don't think that there's going to be
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: a level of anxiety that people predict. Honestly, I don't know.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: Well, hasn't the Vatican even addressed this and saying that
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: if alien life exists, that God can have created life
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: other places of course, yeah, which really does make sense.
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so they're not going to be upset. And
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of Catholics in the United States.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: So I mean people in the United States or even
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: all over the world. There are countries like in Brazil
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: where they're okay with you know, if they're if there
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: are aliens up there, it's not going to change. They're
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: probably watching us, and nobody's going to be upset about that.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: They're still going to vote for their presidents and their
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: congress people and so forth. Yeah, so you're like the
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: only one here that I not the only one, but
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: you're representing a small minority of people in my opinion.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: How so, because you think that that it's going to
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: change everything, you think that it might actually change your worldview,
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: but it's not going to change the eighty percent out there.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: It's not going to change their worldview.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's a guess. Mine's guess as well. It's
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: a guess of how it's going to affect the world.
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: I would assume it affects it in a pretty spectacular way.
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: If we have undeniable proof that there is some superior
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: intelligence that's interacting with us and perhaps even controlling events
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: and preventing certain things from happening, like when they go
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: over nuclear bases and stop weapons functions.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: This is a religious worldview. That's the religious worldview you're
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: you're identifying right there.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: How is that a religious worldview that there's an intelligent
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: life form from another planet that comes.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: Not another planet, but like you know, there's an intelligent interdimension.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: Right, we don't know if it's from Yeah, yeah, that's
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: a guest.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So most religions are assuming that there are other
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: there are gods and goddesses, or there is God and
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: there are angels and demons and things like that, there
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: are you know, non human intelligences. So they already think
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: this and this is already a worldview.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: Well that's what gets weird when you get into the
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: really old scripts, like the Book of Enoch. That's right
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 2: that you know Annapoline a Luna, she's the one who turn.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: Mend And yeah.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: I've listened to the audiobook or the Book of Enock
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: twice now and every time I listen to him, like
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: what the fuck were they talking about? Yeah?
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like what is.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: What are the watchers who came down and bred with
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: the daughters of man and created the Nephelm? Like what
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: is what is all this stuff? Yeah?
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: That informs a lot of Christian doctrines base well.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: Not really not today, but because it's not included in
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: the canon.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: But what if it was, Right, it's included in the canon,
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: but just not in reference to the Book of Enoch.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, well, the Book of Enoch's not in the canon,
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: but Enoch is referenced in.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: The Bible absolutely, yes, yeah, which is kind.
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: Of nuts that you don't get the Book of.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: Enoch, but you have the worldview of Enoch. A lot
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: of Christians still believe in that, and it's I would
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: say that I don't know, like more than fifty percent,
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: so even though so, yes.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: More than fifty percent believe.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: I believe in the worldview of Enoch. That we're that
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: there are watchers and fallen angels and things like that,
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: that you know, this is the supernatural worldview and it's
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: alive and well, she believes in it, right, she believes
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: that there are yeah, Anna Polina, Oh yeah, so I've
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 1: heard her say that she thinks they're interdimensional beings also,
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: so in a sense, the preternatural right.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: Imagine a world. Imagine how different religion would be if
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 2: the Book of Enoch was regularly taught in Sunday at church,
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: that they would tell you that story along with Moses
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: and along with all the other stories that they would
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: tell you about the Book of Enoch, and everybody in
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: the church will be sitting there like, what what are
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: you talking about? Who are the watchers? Like? What are they?
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: They came down and lay with the daughters of Man.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: What yeah, like this is this was a part of
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: an ancient story. And the real question is when whenever
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: I read these biblical stories, I'm always trying to I
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: know that they're writing things down. First of all, they're
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: writing it in ancient Hebrew, and then it's transcribed and
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: translated into Latin and to Greek and all these other languages,
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: and a lot is lost in that translation, a lot,
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: a lot. It's interpreted very weird because it's just just
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: the way languages are formed, just the way they structure sentences,
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of the context of it is where
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: also in ancient Hebrew, numbers double letters double as numbers, so.
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: A lot of coded stuff.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: Right, So there's numerical value to the words, which is
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: really weird.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: There are churches, though, that do teach that there are
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: some religious traditions. I agree with you that this tradition
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: is not well taught to Christians or Jewish people are
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: you know today, But that doesn't mean that the Christians
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: aren't going to go out and learn for themselves. They do.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: They do learn for themselves, and they actually have communities
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: that know about this.
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: So lots do well, certainly the ethiop Yeah, of course, right,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: which is weird that the Ethiopian Bible has that in it.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: The Book of Enoch is a part of the Ethiopian Bible.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's it's one of the first Bibles. It's
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: one of the first. So Ethiopian Christianity is like one
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: of the oldest forms of continuous Christianity.
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 2: But there's no real translation of it that's available in English, Right,
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: isn't that the case.
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: With the Well let's see, Yeah, I guess you're right.
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: I don't actually know about that. I mean you can
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: look it up. I mean people can look up this stuff,
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: and there are people who write about it, like my field,
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: people write about.
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: It, right, your field. But I mean the average Christian
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: is not really aware of what's in the Book of Enoch.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, you're right. So that's where like a
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: basic studies religion class will like where you know, if
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: you take my class, I'll make you aware of it.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: I'll make you aware of the different forms of Christianity,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: right that once before the Roman Catholicism and you know,
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 1: the earliest forms of Christianity. I'll also make you aware
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: of the super natural worldview.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's all there was something that happened.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: There's real events, and I just don't know if the
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: stories are accurate. I don't know if the written version
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: of these stories accurately relays the real events that took
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: place and what they're trying to say, especially when in
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 2: regards to the Watchers and the nepheline and all that
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: stuff and the giants. There's just so many weird parts
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 2: of those stories that we're just supposed to just accept. Like,
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 2: what is that? That sounds to me like genetic engineering
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: is what it sounds like. It sounds like a primitive
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: translation or explanation of what genetic engineering of human beings was.
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: That's what it sounds like.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: You know that belief was still around after Jesus was
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: crucified and within the early Church, because Paul writes about
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: it in his letters.
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: What is right about?
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you know the tradition of women wearing veils
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: in church?
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you go to a mask today, like
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: a Catholic mask, some women will be wearing veils. And
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: if you go to a traditionalist mask, they will be
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: wearing veils. And the reason that Paul gave was because
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: of the angels that were attracted to them in church.
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: So you have to be careful women when you go
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: to church. The angels might be there who might be
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: attracted to you. He doesn't say that specifically, but that's
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: part of the reason why. So the early Christian Church
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: was that they were immersed in that worldview. That worldview
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 1: is still around.
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: So the women wore veils so that the watchers wouldn't
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: find them attracted.
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, whoa, yeah, and some women still wear veils.
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: So yeah, a lot of that tradition is still here.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: So just a residual interpretation of whatever the original story,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: the original event was us. Right, do you think humans
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: were genetically engineered?
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm Catholic, right, I'm Christian?
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, so what do you think happened?
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, of course my views have changed. So before
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: I got into the UFO thing, I was a you know,
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: I went to Catholic Church. I went to daily Mass sometimes.
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: I was Christian. I've been Christian since I was eleven.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: I was raised by secular parents.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: They were not How did you get involved in Christianity?
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: I was converted through on Easter, by the way, on
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: Good Friday by watching and I didn't try to watch.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 1: It was on TV. My parents had put it on
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: and I was eleven, and I was doing Easter eggs
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: and they were playing Franco Zephyrelli's Jesus Nazareth and I
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: started to watch it. Now, I didn't know that he
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: was crucified at the end, because I was just, you know,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: a kid. I wasn't raised religious at all, and my
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: dad came for a Catholic family. My mother came from
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: a Jewish family or she's Jewish, and so they didn't
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: practice religion, total rationalists. So I was watching it and
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: it was when the scene where the woman, the adulterous woman,
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: is just about to be stoned to death by these guys, right,
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: this big group, and they're just about to throw the stones,
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: and Jesus goes down and starts trying something, and I
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: was like, what is he going to do? And he
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: basically says, those of you without sin throw the first stone.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that was brilliant, right, And
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: so then I was hooked. I was hooked, and at
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: the end he was crucified. I was devastated, and so
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: I told my mother, I said, Mom, you have to
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: buy me a Bible, like you have to. So the
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: next day we went out. She doesn't know what to
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 1: look for. So we go to this store and the
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: person helped us out and they gave us a King
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: James version of the Bible read letter. I said, I
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: want everything that Jesus said. I want to know all
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: that he said, and I was hooked on it. So
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: I read this thing. I read the whole thing, and
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 1: at that point I recognized I had to grow up
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: and I had to read the original sources because that
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: was hard to read. It didn't make sense, and I
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: was like, this doesn't make sense to me. What he
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: said was beautiful, and I was hooked. I became a Christian.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: The whole Bible. The whole Bible, when you start to
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: read it from beginning to end, you know, there are
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: all those things that you just don't understand. There are
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: two creation stories and Genesis and you're like, well, why
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: are there too, And you know there are all those
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: names and lineages and you're like what. You get to
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: the Book of Leviticus and it has all these rules
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: and regulations and you're like, you just don't understand it.
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: And I knew that At that point, I needed to
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: learn the original languages and how they were put together.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: That's why I decided to become a professor of religion.
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: And so I became a Christian and I was a
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: born again Christian. And then when it came time to
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 1: go to high school, I asked my father he had
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: connections to Catholics if I could go to high school. Luckily,
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: I went to a Sisters of Mercy High School where
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: they were beautiful people, and I learned Catholicism and action
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: like actually helping people and stuff, and I became Catholic
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: and so I've been Catholic my whole life. After that, Uh,
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: did your parents join you? My dad did. Yeah, he's
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: passed away. He died pretty young, but yeah he did.
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: He was brought back to religion because of me.
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It was really pretty intense, but my you know,
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: that's just how it was. But anyway, so that I
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: became very interested obviously, Yeah, I thought this is super important.
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: We have to know about how this happened, just like
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: you said, how do I know this really happened? And
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: that's when I became aware of the old like the
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: Ethiopian Church, the earliest texts for Christians and the and
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: I don't think Christian churches do a good job of
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: relaying this information to Christians. Frankly, I think that they
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: don't do the best job and that they could do
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: it better. And so now I teach New Testament at
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: my university, and you know, I do my best to
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: kind of convey what these people were experiencing and the
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: kinds of people still experience those things today. So yeah,
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: so that's how I became That's how I became Christian.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: Interesting, so when I said, do you think that human
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 2: beings were genetically engineered? Your response was I'm Catholic.
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unless you're talking about God doing that, genetic indisry.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 2: So do you think that the Bible is an absolute
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 2: literal translation of real events? So what do you think
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: it is?
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 1: It's a okay, So Catholics don't believe in biblical literalism,
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: which is that you can't because there are so many
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: parts of the Bible that contradict so you'd be a
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: you know, that would be a contradiction. But they believe
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: that it is the inspired word of God, written by people,
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: written by men, and so there's fallibility in terms of
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: the not in morals and the conveying of the spirit
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: of Christianity. But you know so, so, yeah, that's what
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: they believe. So in terms of the genetic engineering, do
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: I believe that Enoch with the Book of Enoch, it
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: conveys the spirit of truth? Absolutely? Do I believe that
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 1: there are That's why I believe that if the according Listen,
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: when I started to study UFOs, I was not expecting
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: at all what I found, and what I found reinforced
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: my own religion, my own Catholic upbringing or self chosen upbringing.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 2: How did it reinforce it?
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that's where I was. Actually, So I was
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: pretty secular even as a Christian, especially after I went
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: to graduate school. So I went to graduate school, studied
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: all this stuff, and then became a professor. And I
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: believed in the spirit of the book. I believed in
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: the spirit of Christianity. I believed it's true. Therefore I
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 1: taught it to my kids. I went to church. I
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes go to Mass, you know, they have daily Mass
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: and Catholicism. I homeschooled my kids in a Catholic homeschool
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: group for the most part until they needed some outsources
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: in math and so But it wasn't until I became
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: I studied UFOs that I recognized that the Book of
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: Enoch is alive. And well today, that's what I recognized
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: in eufology, and I encountered stuff that I thought looked
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: pretty dodgy, and I was like, this looks like the preternatural.
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: And so that's what I'm saying. It supercharged my Christianity
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 1: to the point where I went back and I reread
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: all of that stuff again, and I recognized that whatever
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: they're dealing with now, when people are having these experiences
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 1: and so forth, not all of them, but a good
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: many of them are uh you can you know, look
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 1: to me similar in kind. I don't say they're identical,
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: but they look similar. And therefore, if that's the case,
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: then you know, I need to be a different type
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: of believer. I need to be a much more believing believer.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 2: You don't believe.
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And if I can't be secular about my Christianity,
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: I actually have to practice it, live it, be prepared
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: for what comes next. Kind of that lifestyle, that's what
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: that's the kind of lifestyle.
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 2: Is it in any way frustrating that you have studied
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: so much of these encounters in these experiences. But you
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: don't have a personal encounter or personal experience with these things.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that's an assumption that you have that.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 2: You don't have one. Yeah, do you have one?
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: Well maybe I don't feel comfortable talking about it, but yeah,
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: I have some experiences.
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 2: But you feel comfortable talking about it. This is part
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: of what you do for a living. You you talk
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 2: about other people's encounters. Why would you not feel comfortable
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: talking about your encounters?
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: Well, because that is I mean, I'm not sure what
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: to think of them. That's why I listen. This is
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 1: not what motivated me to study ufology or those kinds
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 1: of things. When I think about that.
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: Did you have these encounters before you studied ufology?
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 1: When I look back, I say, yes, I had those encounters.
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when did you first have an encounter?
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't interpret them as UFOs though, Well I did
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 1: have a family member who had an experience with what
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: looks like a UFO and it was document that actually
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: found a documentation of it from the time in a newspaper.
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: Other people had seen it too. So I live in
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: a place that is called that has UFOs. So I
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: grew up near Folsom Lake and that's there are lots
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: of UFOs around that area. And so he had a
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: This is of course a long time ago when he
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: was not interested in you. I wasn't and he was
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: young riding his bike up a hill and he saw
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 1: it and it kind of it was a classic UFO thing.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: Turned around, looked at him and he was like what
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: and it sped down the hill screaming, came into the driveway.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 1: My parents went out there. Now my parents complete rationalists,
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: and they see it too, and they they saw it
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: and it just kind of like hovered and it was
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: like a giant orb, orange orb, and it hovered for
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: a while and then it just went up in the
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: sky and disappeared. And so they had this. This is
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: before I went to college. Every it was a very
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 1: long time ago. And then later when I started to
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: study this, I had family members tell me, yeah, remember that,
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, yeah, tell me about that.
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: And so they reiterated that this is what happened, and
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 1: they wanted to kind of get it on the record,
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: and then one of them found the documentation of the
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 1: newspaper at the time and send it to me. So
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: I have that data. So there's been that, but that's
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: kind of a normal thing. Like people have those experiences
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 1: and you know they nothing to you said that you.
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: Had experiences that you're not necessarily comfortable talk.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I didn't have a UFO experience, like I
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 1: haven't had like UFO experiences like that. Well, I have
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 1: the very normal experience of a person who is a
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 1: believing Christian. And if you have, if you're that kind
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: of person, you will have experiences where you feel like
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: this is you know, there's there's more to life than
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: kind of what you're taught at school. So that's the
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: kind of experience that I'm talking about people in the
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: Book of Acts.
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you mean by that, what experiences have you had
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 2: that made you feel that way?
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, I've had lifelong experiences like that. But what well,
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: just that certain things happen at the right time, at
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: the right moment, and you know, I mean lots of
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: people have these experiences. If you read about Mel Gibson
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: doing his movies, you know, the Passion of the Christ,
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: he talks about very powerful things that happened on the set.
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: So things like this, things that you you know that
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: they're not probable, like Jim Cavizl being hit by lightning
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: when he's on the cross, and you know, things like
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: that that happen. That's you're like, wow, okay, I mean
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: you could say that's a coincidence, and you know, you
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: can look at it from that perspective. But uh, it's
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: all outlined in the Book of Acts in the New Testament.
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: If you read that book, it talks about these very
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 1: these very significant experiences to the people. But the reason
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: I don't talk about them is because if you talk
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: about them to people who don't have those experiences, they
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: will just say, well, that's just a coincidence or that's that.
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: So you're like, yeah, that's one way to look at it.
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: So you can't convey It's like a it's a question
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: of this quality is a question of your own perception of.
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 2: It, right. But as an educator, don't you think perhaps
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 2: if you have had these experiences, you have a responsibility
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: to try to relay that information with people.
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, Because I'm I teach religious studies. So
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: in religious studies you'll see this in my book too.
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: You're teaching about the actual book, the social context, the
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: historical context. You're not actually advocating for a belief system.
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: But relaying your personal experience is not advocating for a
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 2: belief system.
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: It would be. It would be because isn't it a
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: belief It isn't an experience open to interpretation.
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 2: So how would you be relaying your belief systems by
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 2: having an experience that you detail in an honest way
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 2: that's open to interpretation.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: I would do that if I was in a situation
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: where that kind of experience was helpful to people. And
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: I have done that before, Like I've been on podcasts
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: where you know, where they would say they're Christians and
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about Christian life and so forth,
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: and I would explain my experiences and we would talk
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 1: about that, and people would, you know, they would talk
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 1: about their experiences. But when you're at a secular university,
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: that's not what you do. You don't do that. When
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 1: I'm writing as a scholar of religion, you're not. That's
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 1: not what it's about. It's not about whether or not
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 1: these experiences are real. What it is about is about
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: how this is shaping culture.
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: Now, when I meant when I asked you that question,
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about UFO abductions, encountering beings and entities. That's
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 2: what I'm talking about. I'm like, have you had one
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 2: of those experiences?
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 1: I not know.
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: Don't you wish you did?
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: No, it doesn't look like I wish that I did.
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: When I look at what happens to people who have
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 1: had abductions and these experiences, it looks traumatic. Joe, I
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't want that.
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: Like life is already traumatic enough, you.
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: Know, right, I get what you're saying. When you hear
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 2: about people that supposedly they have this ritualistic practice where
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: they manifest orbs and they meditate, what do you think
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: that is?
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I do believe that they're doing something.
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: A friend of mine did it recently, and she's very rational.
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 2: She's a very rational person, very intelligent person, and she
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: wants me to do it with her. She's like, you
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 2: gotta come and try this out, and like we're trying
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: to set a date where she's like, I'll explain to
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 2: you how I did it and how you do it.
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: I was like, all right, I believe you. Like I've
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: been friends with her for decades. She's super rational, very
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 2: normal person, very intelligent, not crazy in any way, shape
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 2: or form. And she's like, this's gonna sound fucking nuts.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 2: But if you do this, and if you do it
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 2: and you give it enough time, they will show up.
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 1: Is this with like Stephen Greer? Is it like C
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: five with him?
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 2: She doesn't do it. She's not in any way associated
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 2: with that guy, but she was taught how to do
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 2: it by someone else. And she said she went on
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: some fucking thing where they all did it together. Yeah,
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 2: and then she's done it privately alone and she said
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 2: you could do it.
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's gonna she said, it's gonna sound fucking insane,
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 2: but it's real. Okay, what do you think about that?
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I believe that it happens.
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 2: What do you think is happening.
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what's happening, but I don't think I
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: would do it.
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 2: Why not?
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 1: Because I believe in cognitive sovereignty, Like I believe that
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 1: we should be sovereign, Like, are you know not have something.
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: Interacting with us?
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Mentally and spiritually and you know so, Yeah, that's
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: why I wouldn't do it.
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 2: But is does it take away your sovereignty to communicate
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: with something else?
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah? A lot of times it does. So. One of
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 1: the things that I noticed when I started to talk
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 1: to people, and I don't want to, like, you know,
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: tell you not to do it, but.
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. Okay, You're going to talk
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 2: me out of it.
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: All right, all right, I wouldn't do it. Yeah. So
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: one of the things I noticed was a lot of
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: people in the beginning when I was doing this research
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: would and still today, would say, Diana, you can contact
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 1: these beings, okay, and this is how you do it,
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 1: and you have to give them permission. And I was like,
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about?
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 2: Vampire?
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. I'm like, I'm not getting a vampire in. Yeah. Yeah,
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: you have to give them permission. Yeah, And that's no weird.
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 2: I wonder if that's where that comes from.
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: All right, well that's what I'm telling.
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: You, right. You say a vampire law is that you
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 2: have to invite them in.
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: That's right, But that's the demonic.
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 2: Lore to really you have to invite them out.
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: So I mean, if you're gonna do that, that's you're
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: inviting them in.
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, So now I'm second guessing it.
• 2:12:09
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, there's Jamie, would.
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 2: You do it?
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 3: I mean I almost tried it. I think I think
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 3: I tried it.
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 2: Daily but like to send my own head. What do
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 2: you think about people that have psychedelic experiences where they
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 2: encounter entities?
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 1: I think they're encountering entities. Yeah, so I think psychedelics
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: is the quick way to open up that spiritual part
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 1: of your brain. But it's a dangerous way. Well look, okay,
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not I don't want to go down this I've
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 1: had I've been on I've gone down this road before.
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 2: But what's wrong? Yeah, I think why don't you like
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 2: to go down that road? Oh?
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 1: Because I guess there's there's part of your brain. Actually,
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: we talked about this last time I was on here.
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 1: We talked about the spiritual sense. Remember we talked about
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: the pineal glands and stuff like that. Okay, So I've
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: learned a lot about it since then, all right, and
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 1: what it's a real thing. Okay. And again, the Christian
• 2:13:08
  Speaker 1: churches don't do a good job of conveying that this
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: is really important for Christians to know about, and not
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 1: just Christians, about religious people all over the world. This
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: is what they're doing when they're doing those protocols of religion.
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: They're trying to cultivate the spiritual sense. Why, because the
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 1: human being is oriented toward the sacred. Like we're a
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: very specific type of thing. We're oriented towards the sacred.
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 1: The spiritual sense is what helps us connect to it.
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 1: We could you know, utilize the spiritual sense through certain things, fasting,
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: living in a certain way, you know, and that sort
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 1: of thing. It's really important, by the way. And digital
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: culture like is messy with that, by the way, the
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 1: spiritual sense. Okay, So psychedelics are one way to like
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 1: hijack into it and you know, open up that world.
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: So it's a quick way, but it's it's I wouldn't
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: call it the ideal way. Although in some religions, like
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 1: the Church of Native Americans, that's their way of doing it.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: That's their way of doing it, all right, and they
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 1: have rituals to do it with, you know, a sacred Yeah.
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: So to do it casually and without you know, without
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: attention is probably might be dangerous. I've done I've utilized mushrooms.
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 1: When I was young, I utilized you know, when I
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 1: did it though, like I.
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 2: Was really young, very official, I was.
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 1: I was very young, and I prayed before I did it.
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 1: My friend and I and we had a really you know,
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 1: good experiences and so forth. But I think I was
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 1: just lucky. Okay, I think I was lucky.
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 2: Why do you think that?
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 1: Because I've had friends who've had really terrible experiences, and
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 1: so I think that it is best just not to
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: unless you're like born into that culture that does that
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: and that's part of your religion.
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 2: One of the things that seems to be the case
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 2: in a lot of the people that have had these
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 2: bad experiences is that they try to fight it, and
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 2: that they try to battle with the experience. They try
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 2: to take control of it. The ego gets in the way.
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 2: They want to regain some sort of a control over
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 2: their consciousness, and they fight with it and they have
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 2: bad trips. You know, there's moments when you do psychedelics
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 2: where you realize, I just got to let it go.
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 2: I just got to realize that I'm not in control
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 2: of this at all, and just let it go. And
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 2: some people can let it go and some people can't.
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 2: I've seen people struggle with it. I've seen people that
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 2: can't let it go and they fight with it and
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 2: they have really bad trips, and it's very scary to watch.
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 2: But I think that's the root of it. I think
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: the root of it is. You're battling with something that
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 2: you can't beat. You just have to just let go
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 2: and just take it in. Here we go, sh just
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 2: go on the ride. And some people can't go on
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 2: the ride, like no, and they're grabbing the walls and
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 2: they're grabbing vines and they're trying to stop their progression.
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 2: They don't want to do it, like it's too scary
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 2: for them. They don't want to let go. They don't
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 2: want to they don't want to erode their belief system.
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 2: They don't want to expand their view of the world.
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 2: They're just too it's too scary. They have a problem
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 2: with fear, they have a problem with the unknown. They
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: have a problem with having this very isolated view of
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: reality and having that shattered in front of them, and
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 2: they don't feel comfortable with that, and they try to
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 2: they tried to resist it. I think that's what's going on.
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 2: I think you have to understand what it is, and
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 2: you have to understand that you're not in control, and
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 2: you got to let it go. You got to go
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 2: for the ride. But that's also me saying that. And
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 2: my psyche is very different than the person's psyche, and
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 2: their's is different than yours, and everyone everyone's different. Everyone
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: has different experiences, different psychological vulnerabilities, different you.
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 1: Know, right, yeah, yeah.
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were talking before the podcast about the Shroud
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 2: of Turn.
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And by the way, we brought that up
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: last Sumer was here and that happened by accident, remember, yes, yeah, yeah,
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: So a lot of people have been talking about that
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 1: since we talked about it.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You were saying something though, that the piece that
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 2: they used for carbon dating, that this is a piece
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 2: that had been prepared. But I saw there's a lot
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 2: of dispute about that online. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 2: people say that that is just some sort of apologetic
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 2: excuse for why the numbers don't match up correctly. But
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: then I've also seen things that say that the pollen
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 2: that is on the fibers matches up with the exact
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 2: kind of plants that existed in Jerusalem two thousand years ago,
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 2: and that that all alignes, and that further testing needs
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 2: to be done to determine the actual date of it.
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 2: That aside, there's still no explanation for why that image
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 2: exists and how it was created, and I've never seen
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: anyone explain in any way that makes any sense how
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 2: that could have been forged by someone give been a
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 2: forgery from someone that long ago that they could figure
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 2: it out. Also, they could make it a reverse negative image,
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 2: so the only way you see it is through when
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 2: you look at it in a.
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 1: Negative I know, it's pretty crazy.
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Yeah,
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 2: whatever it is is, it's really weird.
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 1: It is totally weird. And there are people who There
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: is a guy who's a doctor of blood, a hematologist,
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 1: and he's he seems to have no he's not religious
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 1: or he's not like you know, out there advocating for religion,
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 1: and he just happened to study it. He studied the
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 1: blood and again he was like, and the injuries, you know,
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 1: because he can study the injuries and identify and a
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 1: match up. And I mean, I'm not an expert on
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 1: the shroud, but believe me, every expert that's out there
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 1: since I was on your podcast few years ago, have
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 1: they've reached out to me and they're like, tell Joe
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: to get me on and so forth.
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 2: And do you know someone that's a real good, credible expert.
• 2:19:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know someone well that man I think has
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 1: a good video out there check him out. I don't
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 1: know his name, but he's I mean, you should be
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 1: able to find if you do a search.
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, you study claims blood stains on the shroud of
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 2: Turn consistent with torture of Christ.
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 1: That's not he doesn't have Italian name the one I know,
• 2:20:01
  Speaker 1: But I mean that could be too. I mean he
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 1: could be out there doing that. The guy that that
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: we found, I can send you the link. But he's
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 1: he's an American guy and he's just you know, he
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 1: doesn't have a fancy video or anything like that. It's
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 1: just But there's another guy who's Catholic called his name
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 1: is Father Dalton, and he's this is his expertise. He
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 1: knows about this. Now he's theological, but he actually does
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 1: have studies and so forth.
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 2: And what is what is unique about his perspective.
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 1: So his perspective is that first you have to understand
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 1: the Catholic Church is very careful about what they put
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 1: their you know, what they say is true and not true.
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 1: It takes them forever to say something's a miracle. And
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 1: often when they identify something as being miraculous, they have
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 1: a huge team of people, often who are the best
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 1: at what they do. They and they might not be Catholic, Okay,
• 2:20:58
  Speaker 1: they could be atheist and so forth. So this was
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 1: studied at Duke University the Shroud of Turin in the
• 2:21:03
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and I happened to know a priest who
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 1: was a graduate student there in PhD program, and he
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 1: witnessed the whole study. So Father Dalton would be a
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 1: person who is Catholic. Obviously he is a priest. However,
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 1: he is not going to say, you know, he's going
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: to give you the facts about each of the studies,
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 1: and he's going to talk specifically about what we don't know,
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 1: what we don't know about it, what you know might
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 1: be As a Catholic, you have to say, this is
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: not we don't know about that, Like, yeah, you're right,
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 1: it could be this or that. Same thing with the
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: Guadalupe Tilma, right, so you know a lot of people
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: say it was created by God and you know put
• 2:21:44
  Speaker 1: on this. You know about that, right, So the Guadalupe
• 2:21:47
  Speaker 1: image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico City that
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: was miraculous said to be miraculously put. Well, there are
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 1: some you know, things that have been added later. So
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 1: I think the shroud is like that also, but there
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 1: and there's been a lot of studies by.
• 2:22:04
  Speaker 2: What's so interesting about this Guadalupe?
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 1: So this is a this is a tilma, which is
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: a cloak. It's from this is from the fifteen hundreds.
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 1: So this is that an image that allegedly, according to
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 1: devotional Catholicism, this image was imparted onto this cloak. Uh,
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 1: and the cloak was was worn by a guy by
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: the way, I think, I'm not sure, but uh, you
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 1: know mel Gibson's icon, like he I think that might
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 1: be the part of this. I'm not entirely sure. But
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 1: so here you have something that is unexplainable. Part of
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 1: it is explainable because after the image was put on,
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 1: people had painted over it, like I don't know, one
• 2:22:54
  Speaker 1: hundred years later, and subsequently, you know, just to upkeep
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: it that I think the joel was added, a couple
• 2:23:01
  Speaker 1: of things were added later. But it's it's it's not
• 2:23:06
  Speaker 1: as anomalous as the strategy.
• 2:23:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, what is unexplainable about this painting?
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, so this appears to be a painting, but underneath
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 1: there's an image, and the image is the Virgin Mary
• 2:23:22
  Speaker 1: herself without her cloak, without the angel and without the
• 2:23:27
  Speaker 1: sun around her. And this image is allegedly had been
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 1: put on this guy's cloak, Wan Diego's cloak in the
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds. So he was he had a She wanted
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 1: a basilica, which, by the way, she's in right now,
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 1: and that's what she asked for. The bishop at the
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 1: time said, I don't believe you Wan Diego. You have
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 1: to show me proof. So he went back to the
• 2:23:58
  Speaker 1: place where he had seen her, and she said, go
• 2:24:01
  Speaker 1: up and get a bunch of flowers and put them
• 2:24:03
  Speaker 1: in this cloak of yours and then bring them to
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 1: the bishop. You know, they're out of season, they don't
• 2:24:08
  Speaker 1: grow in Mexico. So he did. He went, he got
• 2:24:12
  Speaker 1: the flowers, he went back to the bishop in Mexico
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 1: City and he gave them to him. And when they
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 1: opened it up, there was an image of the Virgin
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 1: Mary on the cloak. And that's where that's This is
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 1: what that's supposed to be.
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 2: I still don't understand why that's unique. It's just a painting.
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 3: Oh no, one painted it just showed up.
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 2: I was just there. Okay, Well what's it made out of?
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 2: What is what is the ink?
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 1: What is what is the so okay, so all right,
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 1: so this is where it gets complicated. So the original
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 1: cloak is a gave materials made out of like, you know,
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: a govey. Yeah, and the original image appears to be
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 1: the agave plant fibers. Somehow the image was from the fibers.
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 1: It's not paint.
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 2: There's no differ these colors.
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the colors of the cloak around her, that's
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 1: later in a later addition.
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, how do we know that.
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 1: Our historians have looked at it? Like people who do.
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 1: They use infrared photography and they're able to identify the
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 1: layers of.
• 2:25:25
  Speaker 2: It, so that the image existed originally, and then people
• 2:25:28
  Speaker 2: painted over the image, well.
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 1: They painted around it, they kind of embellished it.
• 2:25:32
  Speaker 2: So where can we see the original I'm looking.
• 2:25:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's hard to get that picture because.
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 2: That, to me is not as interesting is the shadow
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 2: of turn Yeah?
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, they're both really.
• 2:25:44
  Speaker 2: Also it's painted over already. Yeah, it's already been sort
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 2: of bastardized. Yeah, that's the shroud of Turren is just
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 2: weird because it's not ink. Yeah, it's not die. It
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 2: seems to be some sort of like it's burned in
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 2: somehow or another.
• 2:26:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, yeah, So if you got someone on here
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 1: to talk about it, I would either get Father Dalton
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 1: or I would get that doctor.
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 2: I would want someone to dismiss it as well. I
• 2:26:10
  Speaker 2: would want two people to Yeah.
• 2:26:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that would be a great I'd love
• 2:26:15
  Speaker 1: to see it.
• 2:26:15
  Speaker 2: Because what you're saying about the parts of the fabric
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 2: that had been repaired, and that's what they did the
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 2: radiocarbon dating on I've heard that disputed online. Okay, yeah,
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 2: but that would be a thing that you would say
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 2: if you wanted to really believe that it was two
• 2:26:32
  Speaker 2: thousand years old, you would say, oh no, no, no, they
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 2: got the wrong piece.
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 2: And also why was it repaired, Like why would someone
• 2:26:40
  Speaker 2: repair it?
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 1: Well, because it's a devotional cloth for the Catholic Church,
• 2:26:45
  Speaker 1: so they're going to.
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 2: Keep it, you know, having more cloth to it.
• 2:26:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it'll you know, disintegrate or whatnot. I mean,
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: it's been making the rounds for a long time.
• 2:26:55
  Speaker 2: Right Yeah. Uh, I don't know.
• 2:27:01
  Speaker 5: It says it was found in thirteen fifty and they
• 2:27:04
  Speaker 5: don't know how it got to where.
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 2: It was, and don't they Yeah, that's right, and don't
• 2:27:09
  Speaker 2: don't they say that that's the when they do the
• 2:27:13
  Speaker 2: radiocarbon dating, it goes back to around that area. I
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 2: think it goes to like the twelve hundreds. That's where
• 2:27:21
  Speaker 2: they think it came from. That's where it originated.
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so even if it did, it's still anomalous. It's
• 2:27:27
  Speaker 1: still weird.
• 2:27:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely weird. It's weird in the sense that
• 2:27:30
  Speaker 2: it wasn't painted, it's not die that it seems to
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 2: have been created by energy. What is the conventional description
• 2:27:40
  Speaker 2: for how it was made? Let's see that. Let's see
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 2: what it says. What's the conventional description. Let's see how
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 2: is it made? Rectangular linen CROs four point four meters
• 2:28:07
  Speaker 2: long one point one meters wide, bearing the faint front
• 2:28:12
  Speaker 2: and back image of a bearded crucified man. Conventional description
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 2: how it was made as a physical object material handwoven
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 2: woven linen made from flax fibers, weave thread side strip. Okay,
• 2:28:26
  Speaker 2: but what about the image? Okay, a faint sepia Is that?
• 2:28:30
  Speaker 2: How I say that? Words cpia straw yellow image shows
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 2: a man with wounds consistent with crucific crucification crucifixion rather
• 2:28:40
  Speaker 2: side wound wounds at the risk and feet puncture marks
• 2:28:42
  Speaker 2: around the scalp. Conventional skeptical mainstream explanation for how the
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 2: image was produced falls into a few camps. Medieval painting,
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 2: pigmentation pigment application on reported finding red, ochre and vermilion
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 2: pigments in a gelatin, gelatine collagen tempera binder, concluding it
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 2: was painted in the fourteenth century. This remains the dominant
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 2: skeptical explanation. Rubbing or boss relief transfer technique. Researchers like
• 2:29:15
  Speaker 2: Joel Nickel have reproduced shroud like images by rubbing dry
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 2: pigment iron oxide over a cloth laid on the boss
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 2: relief sculpture, producing the same negative image surface only characteristic
• 2:29:29
  Speaker 2: acid scorch or chemical stating technique. Dating nineteen eighty eight
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 2: radiocarbon test performed independently by labs at Oxford, Arizona, and
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 2: Zurich dated the flax to twelve sixty to thirteen ninety
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 2: CE with a ninety five percent confidence squarely in the
• 2:29:47
  Speaker 2: medieval period, consistent with its documented to pearance in Leary
• 2:29:51
  Speaker 2: around thirteen fifty five. Under the conventional view, this dating
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 2: settles the question it's a medieval artifact, likely produce used
• 2:30:00
  Speaker 2: as a devotational or pilgrimage object during the period when
• 2:30:06
  Speaker 2: relic veneration was a booming industry. Okay, so what they're
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 2: saying is it's made with pigment, but I thought it
• 2:30:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't made with pigment.
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And also that there are blood stains on it,
• 2:30:23
  Speaker 1: actual blood. Well that's what it's supposed to be.
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 2: Right, But any that's what it's supposed to be. But
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 2: has anybody ever done a study, any kind of tests
• 2:30:35
  Speaker 2: on that the blood stains a real human blood applied
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 2: before the image was formed. Crowd proponents can test all
• 2:30:43
  Speaker 2: the above, arguing the C four sample came from anieval
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 2: repair patch, that no reproduction fully matches the image's properties
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 2: superficially of the two hundred nine meter three D encoded
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 2: distance information, no brushstrokes, and that the blood stain are
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 2: real human blood applied before the image formed. But the
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: mainstream conventional description remains fourteenth century linen cloth with hand
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 2: produced image made in France as a religious artifact. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
• 2:31:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 2: The thing is people want to believe that it's the
• 2:31:19
  Speaker 2: shroud that Jesus was buried in.
• 2:31:22
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, people do want to believe it, but I don't.
• 2:31:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily want to believe it like I've had
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 1: I used to not believe it.
• 2:31:29
  Speaker 2: Do you believe it now?
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: Definitely? Yeah?
• 2:31:31
  Speaker 2: Why? Definitely?
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 1: Because of the information by the blood doctor guy, which
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 1: I hate to keep calling him that I wish I
• 2:31:40
  Speaker 1: knew who what his name was, and also my friend
• 2:31:42
  Speaker 1: who was at the Shroud analysis at Duke University, and
• 2:31:47
  Speaker 1: also like what father Dalton talks about, you know, I mean,
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 1: the thing is is that it looks pretty weird and
• 2:31:55
  Speaker 1: it's definitely weird. Yeah yeah, so yeah, so I believe it,
• 2:31:58
  Speaker 1: but I'm not, like, I can't prove that, and I'm
• 2:32:01
  Speaker 1: not going to. That's why I do religious studies. By
• 2:32:03
  Speaker 1: the way, I'm not a theologian. I can't say, yes,
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 1: you must believe this. I don't know. I believe it.
• 2:32:08
  Speaker 1: That's what I can say. I think, Yeah, yeah, that's him, Yeah,
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 1: that's him.
• 2:32:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, But why do I still understand? Why do you believe?
• 2:32:17
  Speaker 2: If it turns out that these people are all saying
• 2:32:19
  Speaker 2: the truth that it was made with it.
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 1: Die, yeah, yeah, of course, then I'll just change my
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 1: perception because I have new data. I will change my
• 2:32:30
  Speaker 1: theory like right now, I believe.
• 2:32:32
  Speaker 2: It's the truth, but that data does exist, that it's
• 2:32:35
  Speaker 2: made with die.
• 2:32:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so there die could have put on been put
• 2:32:40
  Speaker 1: on it. I believe that there is a an image
• 2:32:45
  Speaker 1: on it. There is an image on it. How did
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 1: that image get there? That image? So this is the
• 2:32:50
  Speaker 1: kind of thing that things could have been done with it.
• 2:32:52
  Speaker 1: It was repaired, it was you know, it went through
• 2:32:55
  Speaker 1: many hands. I mean, I am a person who knows
• 2:32:58
  Speaker 1: about Catholic relics. I know what happens to them. So
• 2:33:02
  Speaker 1: these are things that would be normal in the life
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 1: of a relic, that they would be handled, sometimes with care,
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes with not not with care. So yeah, that's my belief.
• 2:33:12
  Speaker 1: Joke like, if I get, you know, analysis from somebody
• 2:33:17
  Speaker 1: like Gary Nolan and he does this like you know,
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 1: microscopic analysis of everything and says, no, Diana, sorry, this
• 2:33:24
  Speaker 1: is not you know, I'll be Oh, that's too bad.
• 2:33:27
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed having that belief for ten years.
• 2:33:30
  Speaker 2: But it seems like if the radio carbon dating was
• 2:33:32
  Speaker 2: from nineteen eighty eight, like shouldn't we do some sort
• 2:33:34
  Speaker 2: of an updated Yeah, yeah, ye, this.
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 1: Thing is Yeah, that's right totally. I'm all for that.
• 2:33:42
  Speaker 2: We ask a question where.
• 2:33:46
  Speaker 1: I think it's into I think, honestly, I think it's
• 2:33:49
  Speaker 1: in Turin, but I could yeah, yeah, in Italy.
• 2:33:52
  Speaker 2: Oh wow.
• 2:33:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I could be wrong though, but I think it is.
• 2:33:56
  Speaker 2: Can you look at it? I can go there and
• 2:33:58
  Speaker 2: look at it.
• 2:33:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you can.
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 5: It's in the cathol Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist
• 2:34:03
  Speaker 5: in turn in Italy. Has been housed there since fifteen
• 2:34:05
  Speaker 5: seventy eight. Okay, it's always been amazing. No one's trying
• 2:34:09
  Speaker 5: to steal.
• 2:34:09
  Speaker 1: It, don't say that.
• 2:34:14
  Speaker 5: Why well, I mean, would they have ever made a
• 2:34:18
  Speaker 5: fake to hide the real one?
• 2:34:20
  Speaker 3: And that's we were testing the dumb.
• 2:34:24
  Speaker 5: Special powers or something if you put it on a.
• 2:34:26
  Speaker 2: Lot, dickens. Anything else should we talk about before we
• 2:34:31
  Speaker 2: wrapped this up? Is there anything else we didn't cover? No,
• 2:34:36
  Speaker 2: you have it.
• 2:34:36
  Speaker 1: You have an alien image up here and he has horns,
• 2:34:39
  Speaker 1: looks like a demon.
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the mothership logo comedy mothership.
• 2:34:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, just saying.
• 2:34:48
  Speaker 2: I know there's no real significance to it though, it's
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 2: just fun.
• 2:34:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course.
• 2:34:54
  Speaker 2: Allegedly, I see he did notice that. Though it is weird,
• 2:35:01
  Speaker 2: I get it, especially after we're talking, I should show that. JD.
• 2:35:05
  Speaker 2: I'm like, you think that's.
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, he may have noticed it and chose
• 2:35:08
  Speaker 1: not to say anything.
• 2:35:09
  Speaker 2: I don't think he did, Okay, I think it probably would.
• 2:35:12
  Speaker 3: Have brought it up.
• 2:35:15
  Speaker 2: So nothing, nothing else? Is there anything else you wanted
• 2:35:17
  Speaker 2: to talk about before we wrap this up?
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 1: I just published a book came out yesterday.
• 2:35:21
  Speaker 2: Called The Others And what is it about?
• 2:35:24
  Speaker 1: It's about stuff we've been talking about, but it's also
• 2:35:26
  Speaker 1: about religion and about the spiritual sense and things like
• 2:35:30
  Speaker 1: that and AI. So it has a it has a
• 2:35:34
  Speaker 1: theory of E T. If you know we're talking about ET.
• 2:35:39
  Speaker 1: It has a theory of ET in it and a
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 1: couple other things.
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, what is your theory of ET?
• 2:35:46
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm I'm rehousing some theory. So I'm like the
• 2:35:51
  Speaker 1: theory of advanced technology being what people are encountering when
• 2:35:57
  Speaker 1: they're encountering what they consider to be aliens and ET.
• 2:36:02
  Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about this last time. It
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 1: was something that I was thinking of it and I
• 2:36:06
  Speaker 1: just rehashed it. So it's it's there in the book
• 2:36:09
  Speaker 1: in a more developed form. If I were to just
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 1: do an elevator description of it, though. I would say
• 2:36:16
  Speaker 1: that Steven Spielberg's film AI is a really good film
• 2:36:20
  Speaker 1: about ET and what he thinks, you know, if ET
• 2:36:25
  Speaker 1: were I know he's just done Disclosure Day, but his
• 2:36:29
  Speaker 1: movie AIE it was a long time ago, but it's
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 1: really good if you rewatch it today. At the end,
• 2:36:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to do well. People should have seen
• 2:36:41
  Speaker 1: it already. Right at the end, they're of the our aliens,
• 2:36:45
  Speaker 1: and they're basically humans have long since gone, and their technology,
• 2:36:50
  Speaker 1: their AI has improved itself to the point where it's
• 2:36:54
  Speaker 1: a life form, and so that would be like the
• 2:36:57
  Speaker 1: theory of.
• 2:36:58
  Speaker 2: I think that's probably one. Oh wow, I kind of
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 2: remember this.
• 2:37:06
  Speaker 1: It's about AI, but at the end it ends up
• 2:37:09
  Speaker 1: being kind of like a theory of ET.
• 2:37:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is I kind of have a feeling that
• 2:37:18
  Speaker 2: life eventually stops being biological and becomes digital and maybe
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 2: that's what people are encountering.
• 2:37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what the others. It has a chapter, two
• 2:37:28
  Speaker 1: chapters about that.
• 2:37:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. All right, well, Diana, it's always fascinating talking to you.
• 2:37:34
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Did you
• 2:37:37
  Speaker 2: do the audiobook or did you have an actor do it?
• 2:37:40
  Speaker 1: No? I did it thank you.
• 2:37:42
  Speaker 2: It's always better, it really is. It's always better when
• 2:37:45
  Speaker 2: an author actually does the audiobook. There it is the
• 2:37:48
  Speaker 2: others ufo AI and the secret forces guiding human destiny.
• 2:37:56
  Speaker 2: And I really loved your other book too, American cospict.
• 2:37:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, thank you. D all right, thank you
• 2:38:00
  Speaker 1: so thank.
• 2:38:01
  Speaker 2: You, thank you for being here. We'll see it again
• 2:38:02
  Speaker 2: sometime next time. We got another book. Okay, I'm sure
• 2:38:04
  Speaker 2: you're going to keep writing.
• 2:38:06
  Speaker 1: All right next time. Yeah, about Christianity problem.
• 2:38:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, we'll do it all right, Thank you, bye, everybody,