Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / How To Be Counter-Cultural: Hope || SLP363

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How To Be Counter-Cultural: Hope || SLP363 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: My name is Paul Feesey, and in a moment I'll be joined by Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: This week we're thinking about being counter-cultural.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: What is it that ought to make Christians stand out from the world around us?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: We've got some thoughts on that in a moment, but before that, just a reminder that one of the ways people hear about the podcast is by word of mouth.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: So if you enjoy listening to us, why not recommend us to someone you know who you think might also enjoy listening?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: And as always, give us a subscribe on your podcatcher of choice, and if you can give us a five-star review, all these things really help the podcast get seen by a wider audience, and we'd be very grateful for that.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: But now let's think a bit more about being counter-cultural.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_04: Enjoy the show.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, um yes, summer is coming.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why why are we saying summer is coming, Paul?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're talking about hope, yeah, aren't we, really?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so summer is coming is like the antithesis of the phrase many of us will have heard, winter is coming.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've all heard it, but we don't know where it's from, do we?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because none of us have watched Game of Thrones, have we?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Which we're being familiar with that thing.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I heard uh recently on the Rest is History podcast with Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook, uh, they were talking about Game of Thrones.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they mentioned the catchphrase winter is coming because you've got the White Walkers up north, and kind of there's the threat coming from up north, which is interesting biblically speaking, for the the threat kind of generally does come from the north, and you're very worried about that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the threat that George R.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: R.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Martin said um winter is coming was an analogy for was the threat of global warming.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And on the rest is history um uh podcasts, they said, All right, so it's i it's winter is coming, but really they're saying summer is coming, and then they laughed at how weird it would be to say that summer is coming as some kind of threat.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, um, sort of biblically speaking, summer is coming is pretty much the Bible's eschatology.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's the Bible's doctrine of the last things.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um because the Bible, when it thinks about the future, is incredibly optimistic.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I don't I'm not sure that people get that impression.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure that Christians have the impression that the future is bright.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: Probably not.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't know.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: I I think I wonder whether people really think about it much at all.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_04: Or when we do think, oh, if we think about the future, we probably think about the future much like everyone else, in that we're quite we're quite doom laden, aren't we?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: Generally, like, oh, it's all things are getting worse and like it's all going downhill and stuff like that.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: We tend to have that kind of thing.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: There might be a couple of optimists out there.
• 2:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um weirdos.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we think that that's just a temperamental thing, as opposed to a quite biblical thing.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we'll we'll we'll get onto some scriptures in a minute that but that put you know faith, hope, and love at the heart of the Christian life.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: Christian, yeah, Christian belief.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're meant to be, you know, so we're people of faith, everyone's got kind of got that.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we do the love thing.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, okay, I guess Jesus told us to.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: We should be people of hope.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Are we?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Are we really people of hope?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um And we've we've put um uh yeah, hope in a t in a time of doom scrolling into the title.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, Paul, tell us what what is doom scrolling?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so did you say it was the it was actually the word of the year at for some point, or was it?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: The Macquarie English Dictionary sort of added it as the word uh probably two years ago now.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And there's been there's been a bit more doom since then.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: So Yeah, yeah, we've had our fair share.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_04: So Doom Scrolling is the act of consuming large quantities of negative online news in kind of a single sitting.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then this and it's particularly with kind of with people selectively focusing on negative stories and kind of giving more weight to um things that might suggest a threat to their life or things like that, rather than a kind of balanced input into your life.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: So that doom scrolling, just always find you like flicking through all the negative news and just consuming that, absorbing it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: I that's an interesting way of putting it because that that put that puts all the onus on like the consumer of news as though it's it's just demand driven, as though like I go to my Twitter feeds like trying to please give me like bad news.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas like surely some of the blame needs to go to like media companies who were just feeding the bad news.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, if it bleeds, it leads and all that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well there was some uh you know, some in in looking looking it up, some people were saying they they've they thought there was maybe a bit of a change around the the 90s when more news channels and things arrived, more media outlets, and people had to therefore compete.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: To actually you can't just have a headline that says what happened.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: You have to have something sensational that's that grips people.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_04: So if you put something terrifying in your headline that's full of doom and scaremongering, um people are more likely to to click on it or you know get it open.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and therefore, you know, in this in this internet age, um people have noticed that a higher level of online presence and online media consumption leads to higher levels of depression and homelessness.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mental health issues.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Mental health issues.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when people ask um folks from around the world, do you think the world is getting better or worse?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've got we've got a graphic um I think that that just describes how different countries feel about the future.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um surprisingly, for those who can't um see it, if you're just listening on the podcast, for instance, um, China, uh 41% uh of those in China think the world is getting better, all things considered.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you have to go all the way down to the bottom of the the foot of the table is being propped up by France.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Three percent thinks the world's getting better.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: But here's a shocker, Australia, four percent.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Only four percent of Australia.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's interesting because I wouldn't have necessarily if you'd asked out of even just out of that selection of countries there, I'm not sure I would have put China at the top.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't have guessed that China would have just said overwhelmingly Up and coming China.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, I mean there is that, but yeah, you know, there's there's nothing there's no real sense I get generally that they're overly optimistic, you know.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, 21st century belongs to China.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, I mean I I get that.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, Australia though, that's quite surprising.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: I really thought, you know, everyone in Australia seems quite chipper, sunshining, you know.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_04: They're down the beach having a Barbie.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but then but then like Australi Australians are probably far more or they're probably more environmentally aware and concerned than those in Europe.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_04: Christopher Keating just said about China, and actually this this might be true.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: He said, um I'm not surprised propaganda is strong in China for the bright new world.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: So actually the question is, are they really up to uh do they really have a hope of the future?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: Or or you know, or are they just towing the line?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_04: Or have they been tricked into thinking it's a bright new world out there?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Christophe uh follows that up with, and we French are eternal pessimists.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I like that it's an eternal pessimism.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's never gonna nift.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: The future is pessimism, people.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Join us.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would be disappointed by any other result.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Disappointed as well.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would hope so, uh Christophe.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would hope that you would be disappointed.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I guess it makes you think like, what is it you're looking to to give you your bearings?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're looking to the Chinese Communist Party and you're in China and and they control the news agencies, then then I guess your diet will be fed by good news stories about China is up and coming in the world and and we are the future.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas we um voluntarily choose to go on Twitter.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's forcing us to.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do ourselves down today.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's yeah, it's a British pastime, really, isn't it?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: We're we're incredibly unpatriotic as a nation, aren't we?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like even Peter Tatchell, did you see this thing on the at the weekend?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: There was a there was an anti anti um anti-China and pro-democracy protester in Hong Kong, but her sign of being pro-democracy and anti-China was to to wave a union jack.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and she was arrested by the police, and it's a real um menacing sign of the the crackdown of um the Chinese Communist Party uh on those who are pro-democracy in Hong Kong.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: But Peter Tatchell kind of tweeted out, you know, she's a brave woman, but I'm you know a bit disappointed by her waving the union jack.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: As though this like woman risking her life in the in the cause of righteousness, like, yeah, a bit jingoistic and a bit, you know, a little bit a little bit pro-pro-UK.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you're just like, well, let her choose her sign.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um she seems to have earned it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: But but there's that that sense that, oh, to be embroiled in the Union Jack is to be embroiled in colonialism and all that comes with it.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um which but but again, that's that's coming from a place of we're taught not to be proud of our heritage.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Peter Tesher, like myself, from Australia, spent most of his life in the in the UK.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we're we're taught not to be proud of our heritage, and taught not to, you know, like when you when you ask, you know, how are you doing?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, not too bad.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, and and so we yeah, yeah, I think back to like the Olympics in 2012.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like the the mood before it was, well, it's gonna be a disaster, isn't it?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna stuff it up, you know.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like and then the opening ceremony happened and everyone was going, oh my goodness, like we're doing a good job actually.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like, who saw that coming?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is it yeah, they got Danny Boyle to do the opening ceremony, anyway?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And did it take a Scott to kind of be, I don't know, he's he probably should have been more dour than anyone else.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a threat coming from the north again, isn't it?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But so here's the big question like where where is our sense of hope coming from, and what is it that we're looking to?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're going to do is um compare sort of secular sources about where um signs of hope might come from with biblical sources about where signs of hope might come from.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're gonna do is turn to uh a very hopeful um Canadian called Stephen Pinker, uh, who's written many books like The Better Angel of uh Better Nature of Our Angels, Better Angels of Our Nature and uh Enlightenment Now.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Stephen Pinker is very much a humanist um in the Enlightenment tradition, and uh he he would say that the world is getting better, and that's because we've been getting less religious, and hooray for reason and science and enlightenment values.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, let's have a look at um some of the statistics that he points to, which are really interesting and and and I think worth taking very seriously about how the world is getting better, and then we'll talk about uh why we think the world might be getting better and in what ways that might be true and might not be true.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: But let's let's have a look at Stephen Pinker.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: The world has made tremendous progress against extreme poverty, the minimum amount of income necessary to feed your family.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, about less than 10% of the world falls in extreme poverty.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just three decades ago, it was 30%.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: The progress that we've enjoyed did not happen all by itself.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: The ingredients for continued progress are present.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Talking about the well-being of men, women, and children.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's the overall philosophy I call humanism.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Progress comes from people solving problems, from people setting a goal of improving the lot of humanity, and it comes from just the overall application of reason.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's only by looking at trends that you realize how much progress that we've made.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: To be a happier person, you can't let your view of the world be determined by news headlines.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because as long as bad events haven't vanished from the face of the earth, there'll always be enough of them to fill the news.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Wars still go on, including the worst war in a generation in Syria, but by and large, the trend in war has been uh downward.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: A fraction of the number of people are killed in wars today compared to the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: The signing of the Colombian Peace Agreement, the last war in the Western Hemisphere came to an end, so an entire hemisphere is free of war.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, five-sixths of the Earth's surface is free of war.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's an example of a kind of trend that you can't really pick up from the news because when a country doesn't have a war, it's not news.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Child mortality is down, maternal mortality is down, uh illiteracy is down, uh, 90% of the world's population under the age of 25 can read and write.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're even getting smarter in a phenomenon called the Flynn effect.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: IQ scores have been rising by three points a decade for uh almost a century.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: We spend waste less of our waking hours on uh housework, we work fewer hours, we have access to uh culture.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: All of these developments that just never make the news, but that give you a bit more confidence in the way the world is heading.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Move backward, if we look nostalgically to a golden age, which never existed, uh, if we prioritize competition between nations over overall cooperation, if we fall prey to dogma or charisma and superstition as opposed to hard-headed reason, then progress could slow down and in some cases even reverse.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And despite the some of the uh unfortunate political events of the last couple of years, there's an enormous will to uh improve the state of humanity, to lift up uh formerly oppressed minorities, to advance the rights of women, to advance the uh well-being of people in the developing world.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can continue to mobilize that uh energy, then uh future progress is absolutely possible.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_04: Speak Life's online ministry is reaching thousands of people all around the world, equipping and resourcing Christians and sharing the good news of Jesus with non-believers.
• 14:26
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• 14:28
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• 14:34
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• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: Go to speaklife.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Over the longer term, I think it's really hard to doubt that um the I mean, certainly on a moral plane, we're not morally better than we were in in the year 1013.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but technologically and and even the rate of change that has happened.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I on Twitter um just last week, there was there were the pictures of um the very first plane flight and man walking on the moon.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, you know, very, very grainy black and white for the very first plane flight, and then this amazing, stunning colour picture of people walking on the face of the moon, and those two photographs were taken 60 years from one another.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely stunning in terms of the rate of like to be able to, you know, like no flight, no flight, no flight, no flight, no flight, no flight.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly we're flying, suddenly we're flying to the moon.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean we haven't been back, but No.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think I think that I think you could probably say broadly, couldn't you, therefore, that yeah, I mean stuff has moved on so far that yeah, you could say there's definitely been overall improvement in in life.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: I I think that would be hard to debate.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And people, I mean, and people brought out of absolute poverty is just is just stunning.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um Christopher has again talked about um in Paris, you could rent a room per month in a hotel near the Eiffel Tower in Paris as recently as the 1970s for a fraction of minimum wage.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um we're just laughing there because everybody's trying to put that comment on the screen at the same time, and we keep putting it up and down.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So toggling off, toggling on.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just none of us trusting the other.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's mainly my problem.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I mean the the idea that um Yeah, the the the idea that you could live in the centre of Paris um on minimum wage is unthinkable today, just as it would be in London.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so certainly inequality is is massively increased.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um but those who are no longer in absolute poverty um has uh has gone through the floor.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know we've got we've got some other um uh graphs to show you.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um where are they?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, you do you do them, Thomas.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I trust you.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I trust you.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, could you uh show us the extreme poverty graph?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the percentage of the world population living in extreme pot poverty from 1820 to uh 2015.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so you know you go from 1820 and 92, 93 percent in extreme poverty, and you come to 2015, and we're talking about 10%, you know.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um now is there is there much greater inequality um in income?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there are.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and like the uh the amounts of of personal wealth that Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates have compared to the poorest person on planet Earth is just ri absolutely ridiculous.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: But would you rather, if if you are right at the bottom?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: I like this game.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: You've got a you've got a button in front of you.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if you press the button, you can lift everybody out of extreme poverty, but it means that the top 1% will be even even more fabulously wealthy and that they're they'll be a hundred times more wealthy than they are, but you've lifted everybody out of extreme poverty.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you press that button?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like you like I'm thinking, is this a trick question?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I don't even phrase like that.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: You you'd have to be a monster not to.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not a monster.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let Well, I mean, you have your moments.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: What metrics are we using?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: No, some people would just I think uh obviously there is inequality.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: But like you say, if it if we if it if we could lift everyone out, in a sense, it w if even if those guys have got loads and loads of more money than anyone else.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I don't really take a huge issue with that.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so is it more difficult for people these days to get onto the property ladder and all sorts of things?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think yes.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um might things have been better 50 years ago, possibly, for some people, yes.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: But are things better economically, I'm just talking economically, are things better economically um today than they were 200 years ago?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Would you would you rather economically live in 2021 or 1821?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think unless you were fabulously wealthy aristocracy, you're probably not gonna say 1821.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think economically um we we we are doing better, and I think technologically um we are undoubtedly doing better.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: That is absolutely not the same to say that morally we are, you know, better people.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that Stephen Pinker's trying to do in that video is kind of link sort of the progress that we've made on on various issues like civil rights and that sort of thing.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And civil rights has been a w you know a wonderful you know step forward in in in all sorts of ways.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think it is an unearned sense that we are morally superior to those in 1821.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that that that is to be determined.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um But I think there are all sorts of metrics by which you can say um the world has become a more more prosperous place for a greater number of the the people.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and yet, as Stephen Pinker says, it's um it's difficult to get that message across because if it bleeds, it leads.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And because, you know, our um we are we are primed for threats rather than opportunities, you know, because if a threat takes you out, you're gone for good.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you miss an opportunity, okay, maybe an opp another opportunity might come along or come along.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you if you don't deal properly with a threat, that's you, that's you gone.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so our our minds and you know, our brains are wired to spot threats more than they are opportunities, I think.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: And so uh are we saying therefore that in this kind of social media age, uh not only do we notice not only do we notice the threats more, that they are being put on display more as well.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: So not only is it the news media its not only the media itself is uh putting out those kind of stories in a way that to catch your attention but just general everyday I mean even your friends on Facebook are probably just will put stuff that catches your attention.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: Which you wouldn't have known about before.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: You know, 15 years ago, I wouldn't have known about certain situations.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And media outlets are wanting to hack into your um your sense of outrage or your sense of fear.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're angry or or if you're afraid, you'll click.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So what are they gonna feed you?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Stuff that makes You outraged and makes you afraid.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so they'll increasingly, you know, feed you that diet and will increase increasingly doom scroll.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Unless, unless we find um a kind of a a different source.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think um the scriptures, obviously, are um give give us a very different feel, even though quite often it's it's I think Christians quite rightly um push back against Stephen Pinker's thesis on certain moral grounds.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So for instance, there's there's a um graph, Thomas, if you could bring up um the one about homicides.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, he says that Europe is is less violent.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a decline of homicide in Western Europe, and you can kind of see annual homicides per 100,000 people, and it's gone down to sort of less less than 10 over the course of you know, let's say 700 years.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um but one of the issues is as soon as you factor in the unborn, well, we already kill about 750 um babies per hundred thousand just in the womb.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So our our homicide levels in the womb are already like far in advance of the bad old days of the dark ages.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yet that you know they don't count as a metric uh analysis.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh are we a less violent civilization?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we hide it better.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's doctors with scalpels, you know, doing it in the dark rather than armies, you know, overrunning other armies.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are we less violent?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've just found different ways of being violent.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so that that that's one like very proper pushback against Steven Pinker.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the whole issue of of we haven't morally improved just because we've all got iPhones now.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like that doesn't make us that doesn't make us better people.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um But I think I think there's another impetus within Christians that might not be helpful.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: That the I think we can we can be so invested in it's all going to hell in a handbasket, so much that I think we resist some of the stats that are undeniable that Stephen Pinker brings to us.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I think part of that is we have inherited a kind of a doom-mongering attitude.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Such that even when we talk about something being apocalyptic, we tend to think, oh, that's a bad thing.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we think, oh, the end of the world, that's a bad thing.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas biblically, pretty good.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's quite good.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's quite good.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that's a particularly Western thing?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: Go on.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: No, I mean I'm well that was the question.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_04: No, but the idea that we've bought into that, like like if you went to kind of um, I don't know, Southern Hemisphere, um Latin America, um Asian Christians, right or where or wherever, yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think they would have the same attitude toward, you know, like it's all going to hell in a handbasket?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't I legitimately don't know whether that's there or whether it's a particularly Western.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think they I think um people who um are suffering injustice and poverty cry out, how long, O Lord?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: in a way that we in the West don't.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because they're they're they're just they're longing for the judge to come and show them justice.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas we're like, Oh, not so sure I want the judge, not so sure I want justice.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: We we kind of rely on the rule of law and a police force that can by and large be trusted.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: In places where they can't, they cry out for the judge, which feels like really weird in the prosperous west.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, oh, you don't want the judge, you don't, you know, you don't want law enforcement, you don't want actual justice to to to be brought to bear.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in the Bible, people are always they want actual justice.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh Lord, how long we want justice, and and so yeah, I I would say people cry out Maranatha, come oh Lord, um, a lot more uh than than we tend to in the comfortable West.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I would say.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's just this sense of of um here in the West, being comfortable, um I think Christians I think Christians can be more doom mongering than the New Testament would warrant.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean let's let's let's have a look at, for instance, I mean, do we have um we probably don't have uh um Romans 15, do we, on a slide.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: But Romans Romans 15, I I love this.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this there's this ebullient, overflowing, life-giving nature to God who wants to fill you with joy and peace, and then from the overflow of the joy and peace that you receive from God, you overflow by the power of the Holy Spirit with this one thing that's going to mark you out from everyone else around, and that is hope.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which which is to assume that actually the the the atmosphere of the Christian is hope-filled.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whereas the atmosphere of the world is more cynical.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just want I I certainly have imbibed far more of the spirit of cynicism than am overflowing with the with the power with with with the with the joy of hope, you know, in in in that sense.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I'm I'm very challenged by this.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I I think you know, 1 Peter 3 15 is like the verse on personal evangelism.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's like always be prepared to give an answer to all the people who coming up and asking you, how are you such a hopeful person?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is that is like if you're looking for tips and techniques at in evangelism, um, well, be a hope-filled person.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Be someone who prompts the question, how on earth are you still standing after the year that you've just had?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: What keeps you going?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because you seem like you've got hope.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do we do we ooze hope in that do we overflow with hope in that sense?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I gotta say, you know, not so much.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: No, and I wonder whether I mean I think I'm susceptible to the doom scrolling thing, you know, this kind of just just going through and just feeling like everything just feels like it's terrible, you know.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I wonder but I do I do sometimes think to myself that it I wonder what the experience is.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's for me as a Christian, and I wonder what it's like for people who aren't Christians when they're going for that, because at least I have a an ability to have some perspective on that and to step back from it and to look and say, well, there might be a lot of terrible things going on, but uh do at least have a hope that this will be put right at some point, you know, nothing that is going on in the news today there will no there will no no injustice will be left, you know, kind of without being without justice being done.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: There'll be nothing that isn't, you know, eventually um sorted um or uh done away with.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas if you're a if you're a non-Christian, if you have or or for whatever reason, you know, you have no ultimate hope in in that.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_04: It must be it must be a bit overwhelming at times.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: When the pandemic bears down, you've got you've got no promise that you're getting through this thing.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how why you know why sh un unless it's just I'm an optimistic person, I'm a I'm a glass half full kind of a person, and so I'm gonna believe that somehow we'll get through, you know, the the pandemic.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't if you don't have promises that you're grounding your life on, then yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: Just kind of wishful thinking at that point, isn't it?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's a bit it's a bit like we've talked about it so many times, Stephen Fry being asked about his depression and how'd you get through it?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I just remember this one sun will come out tomorrow, and like, well, you've got nothing to base that on in your atheism.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that's just wishful thinking.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: The sun might not come out tomorrow in the sense that you know you might decide tonight that you can't take anymore.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, and that's that and that's you done.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_04: There's and there's no guarantee that this cloud will ever lift in your life for all kinds of different reasons.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: But he's just telling himself, oh, it'll get better.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_04: I mean that's and we're the irrational ones.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and he even said in that in that interview where he he talked about the sun will come out tomorrow.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: He said, There is nothing rational about this, but you've got to think in these terms, which is just fascinating, because he sees it as a tug of war between being rational or helping you with your mental health.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, well, why not have both?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be great if you could think harder about stuff that actually makes you into a more positive person?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what is it that we're meant to sort of think harder about?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's it's, for instance, the the resurrection.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let's have up on the screen uh one Corinthians 15.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because here is where we're really meant to ground our hope.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: For as in Adam all dies, so in Christ all will be made alive, but each in turn Christ the first fruits.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end will come.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: The end, that sounds horrible, except you know, in the in the New Testament the word end is telos, and and it has that double meaning of, yeah, is it goal or is it, you know, the finish?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of both.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like the goal is when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Next slide.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: The last enemy to be destroyed is death, for he has put everything under his feet.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Psalm 110.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself who put everything under Christ.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like from these verses, what you get the sense of is Christ has plumbed our depths and risen to God's heights, and he is the first fruits that guarantees a bumper crop of resurrection.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're connected to him, we have the deposit of the Holy Spirit, and we will be raised just as he is raised.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: The chapter then goes on to say that the whole world will be raised on the pattern of Christ's resurrection.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll be connected to Christ, the physical world will be connected to Christ, pulled down into death and then up into resurrection.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And what is happening in history right now is that all dominion and authority is being brought under the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the gospel has been going out to the nations, and the nations are being discipled, and the very last enemy that will be defeated by Christ is death itself, and then the end comes when God is all in all.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's the most it's the most hope-filled, optimistic view of the world, and we're kind of in the middle of that story.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: We are between when the first fruits appeared and when the bumper crop will, you know, be raised up.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: But we're in the process of seeing, I would say, I would say we're in the process of seeing how dominion and authority has been brought under the feet of the Lord Jesus, and the culmination of that process will be the final resurrection of the dead.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what makes me a very hope-filled Christian when it comes to eschatology and the doctrine of the last things.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I guess you would call me a very optimistic amillennial, or you know, sometimes you know, at Christmas I become post-mill because uh all the all the Christmas readings are are all like, you know, and the and the government will be upon Christ's shoulders, and um of the increase of his government there shall be no end.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um but whether, you know, whether whether you're amil or post-mill, um, there is obviously pre-mill as well.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's a different eschatological position.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: But um to me, it seems like this there is all the scope in the world for a heck of a lot of um positivity and optimism.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we've had uh a couple of people bring up some other scriptures.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Giles Woodcraft says, but our hope is not based on how this world is going.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely right.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um we should be cynical about the world.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: 2 Timothy 3, verses 1 to 5.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in these last days there will come people.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it describes the kind of people who in the first century were incredibly cynical and backbiting and and and perverse, and they sound very similar to the people that there are around today.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So these last days have been going on for a very long time.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if if if 2 Timothy III is describing the last days, then for 2,000 years we've been going through the last days.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I d so does that does that mean that in the 21st century we'll be much worse than we were in the 19th century, much worse than we were in the 13th century?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think 2 Timothy 3 commits you to that, um, and to things getting worse and worse and worse and worse.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um because I I think at the same time as lots of things being incredibly difficult in this world, there are also the signs of spring, the signs of summer.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the um really, really the overwhelming analogy for for what this age feels like is childbirth.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Throughout the scriptures, Old Testament, New Testament, it's where we are going through the sufferings of childbirth.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and new life is gonna come.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you ask the the mother after she's just given birth, was it very painful?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, yeah, slightly.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um was it worth it?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um But does does there does any of this necessitate that that the moral depravity of the world is worse in 21st century Britain than it was in third century Mongolia?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like I'm struggling to I'm I'm struggling to think why we would think that 21st century 21st century Britain has a lot of godlessness to it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um But does our eschatology commit us to saying it's worse than I don't know, Aztec priests ripping out the hearts of virgins to ensure that the sun will rise the next day?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or or whatever, you know?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it is as bad, but like I don't I don't think we're committed to that kind of eschatology.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um Russell Icon has asked, what do you think we should teach ourselves from the second part of Luke 18, verse 8?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, obviously the Son of Man coming in the Gospels um has a number of different horizons to it.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when Jesus teaches about um uh when Jesus teaches about the end, sometimes he's talking about the end of Jerusalem.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And actually Luke 19 makes that very, very clear that um one way of considering the end is when the temple, which is this like microcosm, this picture of heaven and earth, gets absolutely trashed and destroyed by the Romans, and not a stone is left one on the other.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a a portent of like the world being brought through death, but it's it's it's the world being brought through death and out the other side.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, our title for um today, Summer is Coming, is taken from that Luke 19 passage.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um the parallel is in Mark 13, Jesus talks about the the destruction of the temple.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but he says, you know, you know the signs of the times, you know, when the fig tree is in bud, you know that summer is coming.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And these are just some of the ways that Jesus talks about, you know, the end.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: So so in that famous passage, Luke 19 or or Mark 13, he talks about the end, meaning like the goal of all things.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: He he talks about birth.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these things are a sign of these things are birth pains.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when when there's war, these things, he doesn't say they are death throes, he says they are birth pains.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and he talks about summer, you know, that when the fig tree is in blossom.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know that summer is coming.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about the cloud of his presence, he talks about gathering, he talks about the power and glory of the Son of Man coming.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: In amongst a whole bunch of wars and rumors of wars and like terrible suffering.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it doesn't mean that every century has to get worse than the last century, I don't think.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I don't think so.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes sometimes people's eschatology makes them expect that every century will get worse than than the next.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then and I think that same eschatology can make people think they're not they're not living the Christian life right unless they're really getting persecuted.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Unless they're really getting dragged in front of the the authorities for their witness to Christ.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're not they're not being a proper Christian.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, that's that's not really my reading.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we are to expect that every century is worse than the last.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't and I don't think that we can deny or have to deny the huge progress that we see in things like Stephen Pinker's graphs.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: One of the big problems I see with Stephen Pinker's position is is that he he kind of credits humanism with the mass you know the massive progress.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, ever since we had Christianity in the rear view mirror, things have been getting better and better and better.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously that's a very different thesis to somebody like Tom Holland's thesis, um, who would just say, look, we are still within this massive revolution called the Jesus Revolution.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the very the very idea that we value human beings is totally down to Christianity.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And not down to anything that reason can tell you or science can tell you.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because science will not look in the womb and tell you that you should accord the unborn any value, any value or rights.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's that those are values we bring to the table, and we bring them to the table wonderfully because culturally we followed Christ, who descended to the depths, you know, and and showed us where God can be found, and he can be found in the weak and the marginalized.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of stuff in there.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um when when you when you do a study of hope in the Bible, Paul, um what what do people tend to hope in as as we study the scriptures on this?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so the I mean the two big ones that seem to crop up um in the New Testament is hope in the resurrection, um, but also hope in the fulfillment of the promises to the patriarchs, really.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's the kind of things where the hope lies is the area, really.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: And false hopes are obviously right, yeah.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: And so the so the the flip side is people putting their hope in um so money was it one of them.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: So that was that was uh interesting with Paul and Silas.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the people making money from the the girl who uh she have a demon, was that the story?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um and they see X17.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_04: X16, sorry.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, and then they see that there is no hope, uh their hope of making money is taken away.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_04: I thought that was a really interesting use of the word hope in there that the hope is in making money.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um but then also the New Testament, you know, speaks about you know, before you were, you know, in Ephesians 2, you know, once you were separated and you had no hope, yeah, um, or talks about kind of grieving uh grieving for those who've died.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um we we don't want you to have be without hope uh like everyone else.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a sense in which um the New Testament sees those outsiders putting their hope in certain things but ultimately having no hope as well.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I yeah, I I've always loved this um cartoon by by Matt in the telegraph.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um for those who can't see it, it's it's uh a man with a kind of a massive placard, and you would expect him to be carrying some kind of you know, the end is nigh kind of a placard.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, in capital letters on his placard, it just says, Everything may be okay.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a couple walking past him, and the man turns to his wife and just says, Lunatic.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I I I love that because it's it shows the way in which we might be countercultural.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there's there's all the call in the world for pointing to the world and saying, look, if you are relying on making money, let's say, or if you are relying on simply family love, or you're relying on simply your health to get you through, though those are vain hopes for deliverance.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um but there there is a broader hope to to trust in.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if we model that broader hope to trust in, if we if we model hope in the resurrection, um, then we can be this very countercultural body on earth when you know three or four or five percent of you know Brits or Australians like say you know they're they're hopeful in.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: In that kind of sense.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: To be to be those who you know actually have a much deeper, more profound, more shaping hope, I th I think could be a massive witness.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, 1 Peter 3 says that's that's the starting point for an evangelist.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: The hope should be the difference.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, obviously we're not we're not saying hope that GDP rises, you know, in the next 10 years, or hope that more people get brought out of um poverty, or hope that infant mortality continues to to um go down.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a far more profound hope than that.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: But but I I do think an orientation towards the Christ who is our first fruits, who went down into death but rose up again to life, I think that ought to make us people who who then when we're asked, you know, how are you doing, or you know, what are you looking forward to?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should have a distinctive answer to that.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, and I I think it's a challenge to me to think, you know, what if someone said to you, What is your what is my hope?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_04: You know, what the answer would be to that.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I often I think I wonder as well, like I think I think it was Christoph Keating said in one of the comments that people often I wonder if people just never think about these things.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_04: I it would be interesting to ask people we know who are not Christians, like, what is your hope in?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, because I don't think people necessarily think with that category, you know, they don't think like my hope is in, you know, uh a nice warm retirement or whatever it is, you know, with plenty of cash to keep it going.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe, you know, maybe they do, but they might not think of it in quite that those terms.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: But if you put it to people, what is their hope in, it'd be interesting to see what came up.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I I mean I've said this a number of times before, I think people often don't think about these things because when you really start to think about them, you start to realise how hopeless you know the things you put your hope in probably are.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, particularly in the face of of death.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um you know, the even even again, I think it was Christoph Keating had said on on in the comments about Pinker's thing, it all becomes pointless anyway when you realize you know that the in the origin there was no purpose, at the end there's no purpose, it all ends in heat death and whatnot.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you stop and really think about that, you think, well, why why are we doing anything?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if you've got nothing else than that, yeah, if that is the scope of your world and your universe, yeah.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, one thing isn't it to say, oh well, I pass my genes on to the next generation to keep them going, you know, my children can have a good life, and they go, yeah, and then and then they'll die.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: And their children will die, and they will die.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, but society keeps going, you know, progressing, and you're like, yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: Does it until yeah, possibly until everything dies.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: You know, all the great wonders of the world, all the great works of art, literature gone.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: None of it will ever have mattered, you know, if that is your outlook.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, flip an egg, that sounds a bit hopeless.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it totally is.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I mean, Woody Allen, who's just famously afraid of death, was once asked, you know, doesn't it but doesn't it, you know, warm the cockles of your heart to know that you will live on in the memories of people whose lives you've touched through your art?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And Woody Allen said, I don't want to live on in art in in people's hearts, I want to live on in my apartment.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much, you know.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it yeah, it doesn't it doesn't actually provide solace or hope, you know.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think about the Apostle Paul in the ancient world in Acts 17, he goes to Athens and there are some Epicurean and Stoic philosophers.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting about them is that they're very clever people, they're Athenian philosophers, they're gonna set the trajectory for all of Western thoughts, you know, henceforth.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: But but both of them are just trying to manage their mortality.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the Epicurean, they're both saying, we're gonna die.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the Epicureans are saying, Okay, well then just try and have as much fun as you can, as much pleasure as you can, anyway.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and Stoics are like, well, just be as virtuous as you can, you know.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And but none of none of them, all of them are accepting this system of death and just trying to make do as best they can under the system of death.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then Paul comes, and what are the two things he's constantly rabbiting on about?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: He says, Jesus and the resurrection, and he's constantly babbling about Jesus.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: What is this babbler saying?
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's he's advocating these strange gods, and it was Paul was talking about Anastasis, the word the Greek word for resurrection.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was talking about Anastasis so much they thought that she was a god, you know, Anastasia.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: He keeps on going on about this Anastasia quite a lot.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's how much like resurrection.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if I think if that was necessary in the first century, I think it's it's very much necessary in the in the 21st century to be rabbiting on about Anastasis, you know, resurrection, and to be a person of hope.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's very I think that's very true as well.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, like because particularly we've talked about how in the last 18 months or so during the pandemic, people have been more confronted with immortality, and you talk to John Bear and he said we don't really see death.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, but I mean it was kind of brought home to me like the last few weeks when someone in our town passed away who was kind of only you know in her 40s, you know, just drop dead, brain aneurysm just in the back garden, just you know, gone, you know, um, and no warning or anything like that.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: And um what I was really struck by on Facebook was like lots of people were commenting on you know the post that kind of her husband had put up, you know, and stuff.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: Hundreds of comments, you know, lovely comments, you know, um and all you know, all kind of very positive about her.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_04: But I said what struck me was that there was just like they were really empty.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_04: Like there was nothing in there apart from like, oh this is sad.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_04: There's no hope really.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_04: I mean there and there was that kind of there were of course ones that were saying like I know one day I'll see you again, you know, say hi to I know you're with your mum or what all those things now.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: But not in it, not not with any grounding in anything, just and then other people saying things like, I know I'll never see you again and stuff.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_04: And it was talking about with the with the the vicar, um yeah, so it just struck me just people had no hope in the face of death.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like people had nothing of any there was nothing really anyone could say apart from just pleasantries.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um whereas actually as Christians we have somebody to say in the face of death.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: Because we know the one who's been into death and come back through it.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_04: And therefore there's a hope for us, you know, and a hope for for everyone.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um funerals are the are the real compare and contrast.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think you you go to a funeral of a saint who loved Jesus and you know went out of this world face-beaming, ready to to meet Jesus face to face.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the the singing in that service and the testimonies and the and the you know, it's definitely sad, and we we we grieve, as 2 Thessalonians 3 says, but you know, not as those without hope.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the the hope that is like really right at the heart of like a Christian funeral full of singing.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's like that episode of uh the crown.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen the one where the um Abafan?
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's it's brilliant.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Abafan.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Abafan.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's Oh Abba.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right, I'm with you now.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_04: It is a tragedy.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_04: Immassive Abba fan.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_04: Was it Mamma Mia?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, Paul, it was a terrible.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm familiar with Abba Van.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_04: Having grown up in Wales, you need to enunciate that's what it is.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: Abba Fan.
• 51:39
  unknown: Abba Fan.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, Landslide took out of primary school and I don't know, with like a more than a hundred dead.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, teachers and children, wasn't it?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, bury held in it there from the mining.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and Prince Philip went to the funeral and was just so struck by the singing.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was there was a fierceness um in the face of death to to there was there was an anger in the face of death that that Jesus rightly gives to us, you know, just as he was angry at the at the graveside of of um Lazarus, so you know, we can this final enemy, death.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: We we hate death.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we sing battle cries against it.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where 1 Corinthians 15 ends up.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Where oh death is your victory, where oh death is your sting.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and he was really struck by the singing at the funeral.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very Christian thing to do, to sing defiantly um at death and over death, and and to express confidence in a hope that is greater than death.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not that Auntie Edna is going on to the afterlife, because there's no such thing in the Bible.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we are pre-life, you know, we are seeds, one day we'll be trees, we are acorns, one day we'll be oaks.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're pre-life now, and one day we'll be you know risen again and we sing that.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: The difference between that and like a humanist funeral is just night and day.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so no wonder, like Ecclesiastes 7 says, if you want to learn wisdom, go to the funeral.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Don't go to the party, go to the funeral.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and as we face our mortality, then maybe we'll we'll kind of learn wisdom.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: And as we can be people of hope in the midst of, you know, even life's great finality, um, then I think that will be our witness to to the world.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um that should do us for now.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, we're still uh figuring out some of the audio problems, but we're getting there, people.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're getting there.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_04: We've got um I think it's been much better from what people have said.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_04: So that's positive for the case.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: We will continue to work on that.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh if you guys want to catch up with us on the podcast, then find the Speak Life Podcast on uh your podcatcher of choice.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: What are some other ways that people can keep up with us?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you can follow us on all the social medias, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, uh, TikTok, uh, all those ones, uh, and YouTube, of course, where you are now.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so give us a like or follow there.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_04: And then, of course, if you want to keep up with bits and bobs, you can get our email that goes out each week.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_04: Go to speatlife.org.uk forward slash sign up, and you can sign up there.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh do uh hit like and subscribe here on the YouTube channel on Friday.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: We will have uh our new series called Walker Waka, which is which stands for what we wish others knew about what our Christianity is about.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, and we're starting, yeah, we're starting this series sort of answering common objections to Christianity and uh giving an introduction to uh the things of Jesus in a hopefully amusing way, but we we try anyway.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: Terry Eves says, Thanks, fellas, so appreciate these conversations.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Terry, and uh thank you for tuning in.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Christoph and Giles and Amanda and Wendy and lots of other people in the top chat.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Please keep the comments going down below.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: But that should do us for now.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um thank you, everybody, and uh, we will see you again next week.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_04: Take care, bye-bye.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, that's all for us.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_04: We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback and comments on the things that we talk about on the show.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_04: So please do feel free to get in touch with us.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_04: You can do that by emailing info at speaklife.org.uk to let us know what you think, or do join us over on our Facebook page, facebook.com forward slash speaklifeuk, where there's always lively discussion.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_04: We hope to see you again next week, but until then, keep speaking life.