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How Mashie builds simulated courses for GSPro · PlayBetter's Golf Tech Weekly

• PlayBetter: Today we're taking a peek behind the curtain and exploring the fascinating world of everything that goes into creating the insanely realistic simulated golf courses we play on GS Pro. We've got one of the most well-known and well-regarded course designers in the space, and he's giving us an all-access look at how he does what he does. It's a packed booth today. Playbedter contributor Danny Pfeiffer from Garage Golfers is on hand. Daniel Fitzpatrick and myself, Mark Shevorjan, are along as always, and our very special guest, the GS Pro famous Mashe. This is Golf Tech Weekly, presented by Playbetter. Guys, welcome to the pod. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, Mashy ⁓ Jason as as you go by in real life. but ⁓ but you're well known in the GS Pro community as as Mashy course designer, and so we're really looking forward to diving into ⁓ how how it is that you create such masterpieces. ⁓ one interesting thing to note ⁓ as to how we got here. ⁓ Danny ⁓ created a great video on his Garage Golfers YouTube channel that I encourage everybody to check out. He played ⁓ the real greengrass version of Fossil Trace, a golf course in the Denver metro area where Danny lives. ⁓ and then he did a side-by-side comparison to that in-person experience with the GS Pro version of Fossil Trace. And then a guy named Mashee slid into the comments and ⁓ said, Hey. Glad you like the course. ⁓ I designed it. ⁓ if you ever want to talk, ⁓ hit me up. And Danny had the great idea of ⁓ inviting him on the pod and ⁓ really glad that ⁓ that you did. So ⁓ thank you, Danny, for the great video and thank you, Mashi, for designing ⁓ a kick ass golf course. ⁓ one of ⁓ I guess what, thirty some at this point for GS Pro, yeah? Yeah, I think I'm I lost track. I I always think it's more than it really is. ⁓ but I think it's ⁓ I think it unlike thirty eight, forty, forty five, fifty, I don't know. It's somewhere in that range. ⁓ you know, it's in the thirty to fifty range, somewhere in there. Yeah. Super fun. ⁓ well we got a lot ⁓ a lot to dive into. ⁓ before we do, Mashe, why don't you give us ⁓ just kind of a heads up of of your journey to this point, ⁓ your background in in the game of golf, ⁓ anything pertaining to computers or or software development or How it is that you ⁓ kind of ⁓ melded this together to to become a course designer? ⁓ my goodness, where do I start? ⁓ great question. So I have always been involved in technology. My day job ⁓ for the last thirty years over multiple jobs has been in technology. So I I've always been front and center in technology from a from a livelihood, from a passion, things like that. ⁓ fast forward to COVID when I built my first golf simulator. ⁓ the courses ⁓ around here in in Colorado closed. I think they did in a lots of places, and ⁓ built a simulator in my house during the height of COVID. and ⁓ we used the standard software that came with the launch monitor for until that ⁓ that ⁓ until that expired. And then just started investigating in different software packages and I came across GS Pro. It wasn't new but it wasn't established, let's put it that way. It was a really early in his in his time and I wanna say there were there were only a few hundred courses ⁓ on on it w when when I started playing it. But I really loved the software, I loved their model, I thought it was great. And learned through the G S Pro community that they had essentially an open course building policy anybody could build. And of course I wanted to play my home course. I think that's how most designers start. They're like, I just want to build my own local course. ⁓ and so I did. That was the first course that I ever built with my my Yeah, it was common ground. So common ground is a local course. It's actually owned. It's it's a public course, but it's not a municipal. It's owned by the Colorado Golf Association. They own two courses, ⁓ if I remember correctly. It's ⁓ Common Ground and they own Bear Dance. ⁓ Danny Danny's also local and so he knows he knows that course. That's also on GS Pro. ⁓ and it it's just it's a wonderful course and their philosophy is to essentially take all the money they make and put it back into the course to make the course it's a there's a learning instruction and it's just a great course. ⁓ and so I built it in GS Pro and during that process just became addicted to building these courses. And I it it to some degree unleashed a level of creativity. Like it was I'm not an artist. Everything I try to make looks like an ashtray. ⁓ it just nothing ever works well for me. But for some reason, the process of building these courses and taking something that is in real life outside and having a replica of it here, it felt to me like I was being artistic in some form. Right. ⁓ and so that was my first foray into it and I built it and then I was like, once I was done with that one, I was like, well I gotta build another and I gotta build another and and I started building essentially my my rule that I used to use was I'm only going to build courses that I physically have played so that I could really learn how to take what the real world looked like and try to really put it into GS Pro. Now there's some pros and cons to that approach. We could talk if you want later on that. But ⁓ so that was how I started and I started like all the courses that I built around here in Colorado was Arrowhead and Common Ground and ⁓ the Broadmoor course, East and West. They're all courses I'd physically had played, Sanctuary, the the the sanctuary down down south of here. ⁓ and I used my own real life pictures to compare them against when I could find videos and things like that. So that's kind of how I got started in this journey. ⁓ and I've been doing it ever since now. So like I said, ⁓ somewhere between thirty-five and forty-five courses or so, and I've got five that are pending release. I've got that are gonna be staggered across the the next few months. Fantastic. Well, we'll get into kind of all that's involved in building those courses to to really contextualize ⁓ what it means to build 35 to 50 of these things because ⁓ it it is an undertaking. But I'd like to hear from ⁓ from Danny and Daniel who have both played some of your courses. ⁓ we teased ⁓ Danny having played Fossil Trace. Danny, ⁓ a course you know well ⁓ the iconic hole number twelve with the rock outcroppings, ⁓ some really signature details on that golf course. I have not played it, but I've watched your video. ⁓ tell us what it was like To play it on GS Pro and how that compared to the real thing. Yeah. You know, I I kind of to back up a little bit, I I found you by accident, Mash. You when I was playing the first course that was local on on my GS Pro experience, which was the Meadows Golf Club. That's kind of my home club where I play pri most often. after that I was like, ⁓ let's see what else is out here. I found ⁓ Broadmoor East after watching ⁓ I can't remember, was it the US Senior Open that was it was it was there and I was like Broadmoor East. I I went and attended that in person and then I was like, ⁓ let's play this on G S Pro and I saw Mashy again. And then I was going to play Fossil Trace over the winter actually, and I was like, ⁓ let's go look it up and lo and behold, Mashy's name cropped up again. And so I played I played Fossil Trace on the sim before I played the real course. ⁓ And then I played the real course and then I went and played it again on G S Pro, which is when I recorded the video. And it was it was amazing. I had played I had played Fossil Trace on a couple other systems. I had played it on Home to Hero. I had played it on Rhapsoto. And and you almost can't even tell what the course is in those packages. And so when I found it on GS Pro and I found all of the key landmarks there, it's a really unique course because there's the there's enough obstacles in the fairway on various holes that it actually changes the way you need to play when when those are there versus when they're not. So the the course play experience, even though those other systems had the fairway layouts and the general shape right, you actually play it very differently when the obstacles are there. And so seeing this iconic chimney on hole one and seeing the rock outcroppings on the back nine, it it it really does help you prepare for how to play a course like that. Cause Fossil Trace if you come in blind I don't know if it's just me, but the the perspective on the course when you're on the T box, it's hard to know what's going on 250, 300 yards down there. And fossil trace having that gameplay experience on GS Pro before hitting the real course actually was really helpful. It really helped me kind of understand how to play in the play in the holes. The scenery, I I'm really interested, Mashy, to know how how you map everything, how you created that chimney, how you create all of the random geographical features that That seemed very custom, the the rocks, the shapes. ⁓ I I'm really curious how that all comes to be. I am too, and so would be our listeners. But before we get there, ⁓ Daniel, a bit from you, because you likewise have played some of Mashey's creations, including one of his higher profile ones, ⁓ Chambers Bay, course where the twenty fifteen US Open was hosted, a number of other USGA events, ⁓ in another very distinctive golf course. ⁓ Daniel, tell us about your experience. Yeah, I mean, similar to Danny, I think it's you know, you notice differences between designers just in ⁓ especially like d attention to really f fine detail. ⁓ just even like the playability. And you can like, you know, me and you, Mark, I know I know we are specifically, we're golf nuts. So I mean, I I remember watching Jordan Speeth win the US Open there in twenty fifteen and and physically remember him hitting some of those shots on there and you can recreate that as you play some of these courses like that. And that's what's really unique about simulator golf is that you get to play all these unique and and bucket list type golf courses. and then if you get it the chance to go play ⁓ in real life, you know, a lot of times you do realize how close a lot of these details are. ⁓ I do like how you threw in a lot of the grandstands and, you know, a lot of the just the background effects even with the sailboats around the edges of Of the water and stuff like that. It's just the little so you know, sometimes you think like, ⁓ why waste your time on that type of stuff? But it truly does like bring in the full experience of kind of understanding where you're playing golf at for that round, which I think is cool. And ⁓ you know, the the more detail and the more realistic we can make it, the better it's gonna be. ⁓ over time for sure. D Daniel, it's funny you say that because like in the design community, ⁓ there's it there's a kind of a running joke, ⁓ especially for those of us that have been doing this for a while. We have a very, very close, tight knit community of golfers and it's always increasing and we all play golf in real life. There's actually a there's a there's a ⁓ designer league that the designers play in together and so we're a really close, tight knit community. But what you described is funny, like the sailboats and stuff out out on the on the bay at in Chambers Bay. ⁓ the we there's the there's what we call the inner The inner is the course itself, is the terrain and the land of the course itself. Then the outer is everything on the outside of it. And the funny thing is and you'll never play it, you'll never hit a ball into the outer. You'll never go there. You have to fly over there to even get there. But I will tell you, like, I probably spend as much time on the outer as I do on the inner in the design because it matters. Like it really like having having views that like in Colorado courses, they're all elevated, right? Almost all the courses here are elevated. And so if you're sitting on an elevated T-box in the mountains, for example, and you're looking out 30, 40, 50, 60 miles into the Colorado Rockies, you want to try to capture that experience in GS Pro. Now, GS Pro, the visual doesn't extend that far, and they've recently extended how far it can go. But I we all we try to capture that. So it's funny you mentioned that, Daniel. We a lot of us spend as much time on the outer part of the course that you'll never actually play as we do on the inner course that you do play. Yeah. And I think golfers like myself, Mashe, like when I play golf, like I I it's kind of weird. Like I don't really aim at the like I'll I might have a target point on the green, but I'm not looking at the green. Like I'm actually looking at objects behind the green. Yep. That I can aim at. I mean, I think tour players, not to say that I'm as good as a tour player, please don't take this out of context. But it's like you hear caddies and tour players talk before they hit a shot and they'll say, you know, look at that back behind the green, you know, aim it. It's almost like it's a a bigger reference point. And I do that when I play sim golf too. So as a point of appreciation, I'm I appreciate that you go into that much detail because it it does make it for me far more realistic trying to aim shots and to because it, you know. Sometimes you just aim it on the software and you just try to hit shots, but at the same time I still kind of like to look for ⁓ bigger visual things. It might just because I have poor vision, but just to be able to kind of, you know, get the more of a feel for it as you know, as opposed to just ⁓ you know, aiming at the flag and and swinging away. Well, Daniel, you bring up like you you talk about w aiming at you know, watching a telecast in in the caddy and player are very often talking about referencing the the T V tower or you know specific ⁓ aim between these two letters on the on the US open logo or whatever it may be. ⁓ Mashey kind of innovated that in terms of GS Pro, if I'm not mistaken. That that ⁓ or or at least ⁓ it it's not entirely common, the what he did at Chambers Bay by giving you the opportunity to toggle between tournament mode and non tournament mode. Is that correct? Is that correct, Mashey? So ⁓ Tiv yeah, so there are there are a handful of courses that do that where I wanted the option for people to play it like a US Open, ⁓ with the grandstands and everything. but I also recognize there's a lot of people that just want to go play a casual round and don't want all the grandstands stuff on there. ⁓ I will I will actually say I did I the first person to do that was Tech Bud. Okay. ⁓ Georgia Golf Club was the first one to come out with that. But going back to our our my comment earlier, when I wanted to do the same thing on G S Pro, I reached out to TechPud and and he was like, ⁓ here do this and here do this and so the community, like, we have no problem sharing with each other and taking things that other people did. So he was the first to do it. I don't know if I was the second or third, but I it's it's up there. It's one of the one of the other there's there are not many courses that live give you the ability to toggle on and off off and on. Right. Really cool feature. Well, let's get into what Danny was scratching at there, kind of the the dark sciences. How does this how do you make this so lifelike, so immersive, so realistic? Cause I gotta say, ⁓ Danny Danny mentioned ⁓ you know, Home T Hero, Rap Soto courses, and in all respect to those, and they're fantastic pieces of software for what they are and for what the cost is and for what's included with the packages that you buy. But man, I mean, we're talking about an entirely different animal. When we talk about GS Pro. And then even within GS Pro, there is quite a lot of subtle differences, or even not so subtle, from designer to designer, golf course to golf course. ⁓ so I guess we're all curious, Mashe, as to kind of what the process includes. ⁓ can you give us a a little bit of a taste of of what this is all about, how it works? Yeah, for sure. So listen ⁓ before I'll I'll go into it, but it starts with having John. Absolutely fantastic tools. The OP C D guys, ⁓ John, ⁓ John Meyer and DT Roberts and and Sting I Stinger I call them Stinger I'm they're they're great friends. ⁓ we we talk fairly frequently. ⁓ whenever there I need anything, I can reach out to any of them and they're they're willing to help. Those three guys are the catalyst to the tools that we use as designers. They create the tools, they create the rules behind them, and I will tell you. I mean they re they came out with the version three when I built Common Ground back a couple of years ago during COVID. ⁓ those were V three version of the tools. They came out with an updated V four version of the tools. And the V four tools are fantastic. And I will tell you, they could have just said, We're done. And they've not. They've continued to iterate and iterate on these tools that make them better and better. So we all start the process the exact same way with the exact same tools to get a really good foundation. Okay. So and and they've updated the tools today to be less manual and more automated. So now we can so that essentially the way the process works is once you've chosen your course, we go into a tool, we put the name of the course in, it will bring up a satellite image of that course and the surrounding area. And I choose how large I want that inner area to be. That inner area is going to be the area around the golf course. You want enough land so that if somebody were to snap hook a drive, it's not gonna move off the inner, it's just gonna go into out of bounds or into the hazard. So you need enough land around there to make sure there's plenty of shots. And I always get enough to make sure I can include houses and usually the first the first, let's say the first maybe lack of a word, quarter mile on each side of the course around there. Like usually I get an inner of about twenty five hundred meters or three thousand meters around the course. ⁓ and then we choose an outer based on what the visual that you want to have there as well. Okay. So you have an inner and you have an outer. You hit go and then the tools will we used to have to do this manually. Now it's been automated process because of the amazing tools the team have have built. It will go out and look for the best LIDAR available. And they there's different formats of LIDAR. It could be Dem files, it could be LAS files, whatever. It will look for the best, most recent and most accurate, and it will pull all that down. And it will give us a package and so we build all the great stuff in there's three or four primary programs. We use a I use a lot of Photoshop, I use a lot of Blender, and I use a lot of Unity are the three main programs. And then there's some other smaller things that I do as well. ⁓ and so it brings it down into f into ⁓ Unity and inside Unity then we'll get it it'll it'll set up a terrain, it will set up everything so those LIDAR files will map all of the the the the the terrain, it'll map the greens, it'll map everything, and that's our starting point on everything. Okay. And so once we have that, it will then we can then submit it into we take all that data, we submit it into ⁓ another tool that will then give us a Blender file. And what the Blender file is doing is basically taking all that 3D mapping. we use another tool, sorry, a fourth tool called Inkscape. So what we do is that as part of that process, it gives us a satellite image that matches to our what we chose. Okay. And then we do what's called splining. It's tracing. So we have a tool in Inkscape where it puts a satellite image up and I will then take a cursor and say, This is the green, here's a bunker, here's a bunker, here's the fairway, here's the rough, here's the and we spline the whole course out. I spline roads, I spline ⁓ cart paths, I spline bunkers, fairways, T's, and in there we can actually spline a fairway and a semi rough and a deep rough and ⁓ things like that. And so that's where ⁓ that's actually where a lot of the magic starts to come in because how you spline the course is how you're gonna get those those those meshes that map to it. And so there's a there's a bit of an art in how you spline to make sure you do so in a way that is ⁓ cohesive to the course you're building. And then once that's done, you drop that into our another tool which gets it to Blender. Blender takes the splining, it takes the lidar data, mashes them all together, and it gives me essentially digital 3D pieces that map to that. And so then I'm starting to get this I can actually start to see the undulations and I can start to see all that kind stuff. There's a lot of work that designers do in Blender. I do a ton of work in Blender from shaping bunkers. ⁓ sometimes I will if it's a course that I've played, when I play that course, don't laugh. Designers will will understand this. You guys may laugh at me on this. I spend and when I'm playing a course that I want to build, I spend more time looking at the colors of the grasses. Is the is there a semi-ruff between the fairway and the rough, or is it just a hard line? What are the lips of the bunkers? I'll take pictures of the lips of the bunkers and see So I I can try to mimic that. So I spend a lot of time what kinds of grasses, what kinds of trees, ⁓ things like that. So I spend a lot of time when I play a real course I'm gonna build looking at how I would build it in the digital world. Yeah. If that makes sense. And then ⁓ and so then once and then so I spend a lot of time in Blender shaping all that and flattening cart paths and sometimes sculpting here and you know doing things there that need little touch-ups here and there, flattening areas where I'm going to put houses if there's a bunch of houses so that the houses sit nice and flat on their foundations. And once all that's done, we drop it into Unity. And Unity is, I think, where the artistic piece comes through. Because what I start doing in Unity is where I'll I'll I will go, I'll take the satellite imagery into Photoshop, delete out all the trees, all the car paths, all the houses, get a foundation for the colors that I want. and ⁓ then I will tweak colors by adding saturation, adding hue, adding this to get it to be as realistic as I can get it. And then you put that into Unity and now you've got all of your your your course laid out with all of the terrain and everything there. Now with a color palette that you've laid down on the ground. And then you start planting grasses and trees and things like that and trying to find the right grasses. For me, they need to move right with the wind. The colors of the roots of the grasses, the bases of the grasses need to blend to the color that I put on the ground. And then they need to change as they go a little bit higher up because the tops of the grasses are a little bit lighter in color than the bottoms of the grasses. So we tweak the grass colors to make That it's a seamless blend from the ground up. So I build ground up, I build color on the ground, get a color that I like, then I build grasses from that, and then I build trees and shrubs from that. And then I delete all of it out, or I just hide it all, and then I start planting houses and things like that once I get to look the way it does. And then once that's all done, you basically have a playable golf course, and then you start doing all the fun tweaks like putting in I I use I I will use pictures if it's a course I played and said ⁓ Daniel to your to your comment which is hey this tree is an aim point and I'm missing it so I'll manually plant a tree there so that there's a tree back there as an aim point or ⁓ cart I like putting golf carts on the courses. I like putting custom T markers so it feels like you're at the course if you're playing things like that. So that that all stuff comes in last for me is the end. And then when that's all done, you've got a course that's about ninety percent done. The last thing I would say is ⁓ the and it's one of the most important things is ⁓ performance tuning tuning. So I don't I s I build the course how I want it to look, regard irregardless of performance. And then when I get it the way it looks, if it runs like crap Interesting. Then I start to tweak back and say, Okay, I have too many trees, let me thin the trees a little bit. I have too many grasses, let me thin the grasses a little bit. So I start from a high end. Now others go the other way and start from a low end and then they increase until they get to a point. I like to make it look like because sometimes it's like, wow, I've I've done it before where there's lots of two D grasses and not a lot of three D and so that doesn't impact performance as well. So I've been able to get the course to look really, really lush and it didn't have a negative ⁓ performance. I didn't realize that. So from course to course, I will see a difference in the performance on GS Pro depending on the course fidelity and detail. Okay. It's all tuning, it's all performance tuning ⁓ based on what I will do is in our Unity in the play button, there's a way for us to check ⁓ our FPS and fly through the course. And so I I will play that in Unity and I will fly through all eighteen holes. But it's not flying from T to green because if you think about looking from your from the T to the green, you have the least amount of vegetation because the fairways there's no grass on the fairway, there's a load of grass on the road. I actually will fly down the course, then look to the left and to the right into where all of the veg trees and grasses vegetation is and see what kind of performance hits am I taking for that person who happens to hit the ball to the left and it's going in there and you don't want all the stuttering and stuff as it gets to so that's what I try to do. It's more manual than I thought. I ⁓ y you I I wondered how much you get as a gimme from from the LiDAR data or the topographical data, but it's really it's nothing beyond the topography. It's well, you get the topography. I will tell you, as part of the base package, there are a set of default shaders, colors and things that you can use. So a new designer starting can literally get the topology, get the meshes, get all that done and hit and put it into Unity. And then hit go and it will de it will apply all of the default shaders and it looks fantastic. It looks really good. And you can do that and be done. You still have to plant trees and grasses and things like that. And there's various tools to do that. They've made it easier to do all that. ⁓ but ⁓ but yes, ⁓ you're still manually planting your grasses, you're planting your trees, you're planting your goodies, like carts and tea markers and ball washers, all that stuff. You're still manually planting all that. And that's where I feel like the the art comes in, like from colors to vegetation to like trying to make it look as realistic as possible is I think more art than science, in my opinion. It's it's ⁓ it's very fascinating and a and a ton of attention to detail. And I suppose what maybe at the end of the day separates kind of a a a well known course designer like yourself and and and folks, if you go out on the internet and you look up Mashey, I mean People have called him a wizard. People I mean, he you're a bit a bit like it's like a like a celebrity chef or like a ⁓ you you've got a bit of a following, I have to say. ⁓ and for very good reason. Because because truly, you know, maybe just like a chef, you you're bringing legitimate joy to people's lives. I mean, ⁓ making an experience that that that's that immersive and that lifelike really is what makes the investment they've made in their sim pay off and make it what they envisioned or what they dreamed of as kind of this. you know, bucket list experience of of playing golf indoors. ⁓ Daniel, Danny, you guys, ⁓ myself also, we've played all of these various ⁓ softwares out there, whether it be FSX Play or or Course Play with SkyTrek or or Game Day with Unicore. ⁓ we mentioned Home T Hero Rap Soto Courses. ⁓ wondering your guys' comments about GS Pro relative to some of those other softwares. ⁓ And when we get into the elevated ⁓ premium courses like the ones Mashi is building, any comments there? Yeah, I mean I'll I can kick it off here, Dan, if you want. I mean, I think ⁓ some of the things that I really notice in ⁓ in some of these other softwares is it almost feels like it it handicaps the data or handicaps the poor swings at times to where it doesn't severely slice or draw or hook as much as it could, where I feel like in GS Pro, like if you hit a bad shot, it's gonna show you a bad shot. and it's gonna show you how extreme that bad shot is. So I just feel like the The way that everything is is played feels the most realistic. I think it's awesome that the course list continues to evolve and get longer. and honestly they, you know, GS Pro has courses that nobody else has too. So that that's what's unique about it too. ⁓ plus the the online connectivity and and being able to play with your friends or even just people you don't know in in online leagues and tournaments, I i there's just so much to love about it and it just it just keeps getting better. Yeah. FSX Play is probably my second favorite after GS Pro. And it's it's great to play on. But again, I keep coming to GS Pro just because of the catalog, just because the the courses that I want to play are on there. Sure, I want to play the big names every now and then, and those are in a lot of the other packages, but really most of the time I spend on the sim is playing local courses. It's really getting reps in at the places I want to play. ⁓ so the there's a beta out which I haven't played with and Mashey, I'm sure you've played with And it adds some of the things that I like from FSX Play, like divot action, some other little embellishments that I've mentioned I like in FSX Play, and I'm excited to see those coming to GS Pro as well. Yeah, I Mark, I think what's interesting is ⁓ from a designer perspective, I I appreciate the positive comments. It's fun. ⁓ I don't think any of my courses look good. And I I think it's a ⁓ I think it's a designer I don't know of any designer that ever thinks any designer thinks that their courses are ever finished. I think every one of us gets to a point where like I'm done screwing with it, I'm gonna release it and ⁓ it's as done as it's going to get and then every time we play it, ⁓ every time I play one of my own courses, one, I shoot horribly. There's a curse about designers playing their own courses. And two, ⁓ I s I see stuff, I'm like, That's bad, that's bad, that's bad. And then I look at I think there's a couple other things that are interesting. Like designers, I feel land in their own kind of feel, look and feel. Like my friend Pac-Man, ⁓ who has tons and tons of courses on GS Pro, I can spot a Pac-Man course without even looking at I know, like as soon as it comes up without even looking at the name, like, I know that's a Pac-Man course. I know that's a Tech Bud course. And I look at their courses, I look at CE Simgolf and Chris and his courses are at T Squared and some of these other designers, I look at their courses and be like, Man, I wish I can do courses as good as them. But then I have other people that say, Wow, your course looks really good. So it's it's a really interesting dynamic. ⁓ I where I'm always looking at some of those other designers and thinking, How can I take what they're doing, improve my own skills and bring that to my next course? And they're continuing to innovate from each other. So it's ⁓ it's it's interesting. But yeah, I don't think any designer is ever really happy with their course when it's done. I mean, it's really fascinating because it's it's not dissimilar at all to ⁓ real life ⁓ course design, right? I mean one one designer may be inspired by another and can see the signatures of a course designer and know it's ⁓ a Donald Ross or a C B McDonald or Perry Maxwell right off the bat, you know? ⁓ and and it's it's very interesting to hear But it's the same there. Mashie, I'm curious how long. You mentioned you're a bit of a perfectionist, so you never feel like a like you're done and it probably is hard for you to get to the point of deciding that we're gonna ship this thing. But how long is a typical build? How does how long does that take you? God, that's a great question. I don't I don't generally build for ⁓ for fee. I do a little bit of I I'm authorized to build for a fee. ⁓ but I just do a little bit on the side. ⁓ ⁓ I don't do much at all. So it's interesting. Since ⁓ the vast majority of my builds are just for fun, I tend to take my time on them. and so so it varies. Some courses I've turned out I can do I can do a course from start to finish in a week. ⁓ I can I can from the time I've chosen the course and started the LIDAR process to the time I've put it in beta and ⁓ we've got a beta process to test it for for various things. I can do it from start to finish in a week if I want to. If I want to sit down and bang it out, I can do the I can have the ⁓ the LiDAR done, the blender work done, the Inkscape done in day one. And then I can have ⁓ I I spend a few days on ⁓ Photoshop for my satellite imagery, my satellite shading, everything, and then planting grasses for a couple of days. ⁓ and then I sometimes it and that will depend if I need to build some custom assets. Like Danny, you were asking like a fossil trace about the chimney and stuff. I actually didn't build those. I had those built for me at the time because I didn't have the blender skills to build those. I had another ⁓ designer in the community who did build those for me for that course. Since then I have learned how to build those. So now I build my own stuff in Blender and and and if I need to I've build my own rocks and and and things like that. ⁓ but a bit straightforward, I don't have to do any of that. It's a week. And at the same time, I think it took me three months to do Chambers Bay. ⁓ I wanted it to be right, I wanted to be done. ⁓ I got lucky on Chambers Bay, a a local community member I'd posted I was doing it. I think it was either in Facebook or was on the the G S Pro or SGT Discord and a a person reached out, a gentleman reached out to me, ⁓ I I think it was Discord and I think about it. It could have been Facebook, I can't remember. Anyway, reached out and said, Hey, I'm a caddy at Chambers Bay. heard you're redoing it, I'm an average ⁓ GS pro user and so that can I help you? And so I got a lot of feedback from him and like I would give him early builds to look at and he would say, Nope, this is wrong or, you know, your out of bounds is wrong here or these grasses don't look right or something like that. So that I think Chambers Bay took me three months to do that one. So it it just varies. Wow. Wow. Very interesting. Well, we talked about kind of GS Pro compared to some of the other softwares, and there's a lot of very distinct advantages that GS Pro enjoys. ⁓ we'll get into some of them, including how extensive the community is. But ⁓ other advantages are of course that it it being an open API, you know, not only is it open for ⁓ anyone to contribute to the platform and and design courses and and grow the catalog. ⁓ But also ⁓ it's agnostic as it pertains to the launch monitor. You know, so all of these other ⁓ softwares ⁓ herd you in or or are exclusive to ⁓ one launch monitor or group of launch monitors. ⁓ GS Pro ⁓ has native integration with pretty much all of them in the couple that they don't. ⁓ there are patches or workarounds that the community has built at being an open API, and ⁓ and so You have this opportunity for everyone to have access and the subscription, I have to say, at two hundred and fifty dollars a year strikes me as insanely reasonable for for all that you're getting. I mean, ⁓ you know, the the the th thought that we can jump on some of these courses that Mashey is spending this much time to create ⁓ is fascinating to me that we have access to I think now the the the catalog is is well over twenty five hundred courses. If we think that's right. ⁓ I think there's real value there. Mashi, just kind of curious to hear your comments as a golfer, as an indoor golfer, as somebody who owns multiple launch monitors. do you see that as a I suppose it is, an obvious advantage to GS Pro being accessible to all of these various kinds of users? Yeah. Yeah, I it's interesting. So like I I I I I I I'm gonna come at it from a couple of different lenses, ⁓ because I work in corporate America. So I understand the the ⁓ the operating model that some companies have gone, which is they want to control the entire experience from launch monitor through software and they have fewer courses and they would say I I don't know if it's accurate or not, but they would say they've got higher quality courses, you know, things like that. I do know like for some of the courses that are built for some of the other platforms that you pay a lot of money for the individual course. I do know like they're licensed, they're going out and they're taking brand new LIDAR data and they're doing some work there that's, you know, ⁓ not publicly available LIDAR data. I don't know if it's any better, like if LIDAR data taken by the US G S in twenty twenty three versus I flew a drone over yesterday. I d I don't know personally if one's better than another, but I understand the business model. I do think what G S Pro has done is essentially commoditized simulator golf. Because what they've done is said you go get whatever launch monitor that suits your budget. It could be a ten thousand dollar monitor because you're a high-end, you know, ⁓ commercial sim, or you're it's a three thousand or two thousand dollar launch monitor because you're on a tight commercial ⁓ a personal budget. And for a to your point mark, for a very reasonable subscription fee, you're gonna get twenty five hundred plus growing courses. Now, not every single course is going to have the exact same level of quality. There's gonna be quality difference because they're all community made. And as long as you're okay with that, then this is a commoditized type approach to simulator golf, which I think is a good thing because it's going to drive overall prices for consumers down, in my opinion. Yeah. ⁓ so I I think it's a great approach and I love the way they're doing it. I don't begrudge other companies for the way they want to run their businesses. ⁓ I do think, and this is solely my opinion from looking at other software that has come out since GS Pro, I do think GS Pro has upped the game and had everybody else increase the quality of their software. Does that make sense? If that makes sense, I'm trying to say. Daniel, when you're talking to customers, how often is G S pro coming up in the conversation when people are shopping launch monitors or thinking about sim builds? ⁓ how prevalent is is is that term ⁓ in those conversations? Yeah, it's ⁓ Man, it's it's probably at least eighty-five percent of the time, believe it or not. ⁓ the biggest hurdle in all of it isn't ⁓ isn't the launch monitor or the you know, how how to how to run or navigate the software. It's just it's you know, what gaming PC do I need to run it is typically the hardest question to answer because that's probably for a lot of customers, that's probably the most expensive part of of their sim build. ⁓ especially with as affordable as launch monitors are for a lot of these customers right now. Isn't it crazy how fast that changed? It used to be the launch monitor was the most expensive part of the build. Right. Probably followed by a good projector. And now you're talking about the gaming PC is probably the that's interesting. Yeah, totally. And I mean obviously like GS Pro has some settings where you can kind of, you know slow down the graphic requirements and stuff like that. So you can get lower end gaming PCs to still run it pretty smoothly. Obviously you lose some of the details and stuff that Maggie works really hard on putting in there. ⁓ but it is it is definitely a huge part of the conversation. And especially for those launch monitors that have that seamless integration with it, that definitely seems to be a question too, because there are some that just you fire up the ⁓ you know, you buy GS Pro, you get your launch monitor and you go play. And then there's others that have some gateway to get into the software. So that that's typically a deciding factor on the launch monitor they choose too. So it's it's strikingly popular how how frequently people are are trying to get into GS Pro because I think they've just made such a good name for themselves in the industry that everybody just, you know, that that's that's kind of where everybody wants to navigate to. Yeah. I think you identified what is clearly the biggest hurdle or choke. point for a lot of consumers is that gaming PC. But the people that get past that point, gosh, I mean, GS Pro is is just as Daniel said, is is just uniformly popular for very good reason. And Mashe, to your point of of kind of the ⁓ the disparity between the different designs, to me, that's a positive. It's like it's like real life. You know, when we play golf courses in real life, they're not all the same and we don't want them to all be the same. It's part of the joy that we have as golfers is discovering these tracks that are different from one another. And when you do play other softwares, ⁓ even though the the layout of the course may be different and some of the the bunkering or the details may be distinctive and and true to that golf course, there's a uniformity to it. The color ⁓ palette tends to kind of be somewhat uniform and they all kind of look the same version of a lush green. and when you play GS Pro, it's not that way and and That's to me, that's one of the things that's intriguing about it is like I can call up this design. I don't like it. I call up this design. Then you start to, as Danny touched on at the start, you start to identify, wow, this is this mashy again. ⁓ here's mashy again. Let me check out another mashy course. And you start to kind of fanboy on these different designers the same way that you might you know, I like to play a challenging Pete Dye course. So now I'm looking for the next Pete Dye course. So you know what I mean? Those types of same kind of associations, which is Again, getting down to the realism that we're all chasing in indoor golf. ⁓ so yeah. It's also good for designers. Like it's good for designers because as they evolve over their building of their course building journey, they can look back at their first course and look at their fifth course and see how the improvement has happened and over that course they're gonna actually develop their own look and feel. ⁓ and so I I I actually I Barring the very, very small number of courses where they just they and there's not many of these, but where you they load and you're like, ⁓ my goodness, what am I looking at here? ⁓ I think it's great to have this this range of quality because to your point in real life, not every course is is ⁓ is the same, right? Now, as as a designer, when I play GS Pro, all I do is pick out all the flaws. Yeah. In myself. I don't ever say it out loud, but to myself I'm like, ⁓ I wouldn't have done that differently, I would've done that, ⁓ they forgot this, ⁓ this is there. But that's just that's just the nature of being a designer. Yeah, like going to an art gallery with a painter or something, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Appreciate everybody's design but also look at where I would have done it differently. Has it given you a greater appreciation for ⁓ real life course design? Do you look at that differently? It has, and it's interesting is I it's an area I wish I could get more experience in. It's given me a a kind of a what's the word I'm looking for? It's just kind of giving me this like this like closeted passion for real life course design. ⁓ and we were able to do some work. So so my friend Chris, C E Simgolf, did some exclusive courses around ⁓ ⁓ bootleggers lair. It's a place up in and so as part of that, I was able to ⁓ spend a little time with Jackson Kahn Design who does real world golf course design, spend a little bit of time interviewing and talking with them. And that sparked like some he was talking about how the pushers move the dirt and the design and things like that. And so it does. I really would love to have like I if I had a ⁓ a second career life in me, ⁓ I would love to do something in real world golf course design. I don't know whether it's actually the design or the physical, like on the co I don't know, but I I think I would love to learn more about that for sure. Jason, in GS Pro, you you can create a custom course review, right? Like like the idea of delving into that course design, it's kind of within reach in that context. It is. It is. And I I have dabbled with that. It's interesting and I I won't divulge too much because I may actually finish this course. I don't want to give somebody else the idea to do it. But I basically have started from nothing. I took a specific spot, ⁓ created all the LIDAR from it, got it to what it is, and then started to try to shape a course. And I gotta tell you, it's a lot of work. It sounds like a lot. Sounds like try to to try to get fairways that are, you know, that are that are that are not sitting with a side elevation like this and Like it's a lot of work. And ⁓ I don't think I re I thought it would be a lot easier in our tools of moving a bunch of pixels and just flattening out courses and stuff, but to do it and make it look good, it's a lot of work. So for those for those designers that have created truly custom courses not starting from LiDAR data at all, that that is a that is an art in itself. It's a lot of work, but you can absolutely do it. ⁓ I do know of some courses where and I've done I've done some of this actually where minor but where I used all the satellite data, but there was some course renovations since the satellite and the lidar data was done. And so I had to manually add in bunkers and manually move a couple of greens and things like that. So I've done some of that work and that's a lot of work too. And that's even having 80% of it done through the LIDAR process. When when you talk about building on GS Pro, you've you've used some other packages too. There's there's a software that's recently come on the radar called Pure Play. It uses Unreal Engine. Is that a package you're familiar with by chance or not? No, I've not used ⁓ I've not used Pure Play. We build everything in Unity. We don't use Unreal for anything. ⁓ there is a ⁓ there is a plan. I know that it's not it's public that there will be move we're currently using a pretty old version of Unity, which when we developed on this, ⁓ we'll be moving over to Unity six and GS Pro has been putting in the the bones, the backbones to go support that. ⁓ including a bunch of new ⁓ lighting pipelines and things like that that we'll be able to use and be able to choose as designers. That's gonna be I I don't personally believe you will see, let me put it this way, in a really good designer, you will I don't think you'll see a massive difference in a in a V4 version of the course to a quote unquote V5 built on Unity six versus the unity we use. Okay. ⁓ because There's no limit on what you can do in the current version of Unity. It's your imagination that's limited you in some limit of packaging. I do think though, what it does is the newest version of Unity opens up lots and lots of Unity packages we can purchase or get for free and bring in more assets and things like that. ⁓ more trees, more things like that to be able to do. So I think there'll be a lot of that that will bring it in. ⁓ and then there'll be some some lighting and some some some changes there in the Unity six engine, but ⁓ but not unreal. I don't I don't know of anything, but I think I think I believe they're gonna stick with Unity given that we're going down this Unity six pathway. I had actually just one more question. It yeah, all the pieces Blender and Inkscape and ⁓ Unity, it's it sounds very much like a single threaded one person exercise designing a course. Is there opportunity to work collaboratively with somebody else, or is that it does that not really happen in the course design world? ⁓ it does happen. ⁓ the the the ⁓ the best one that I can think of is ⁓ there was a there was a collab, a three way or four way collab. I was not part of it, but amongst a bunch of the designers on a ⁓ a DPC course out in California. and I do believe there was a four way collab on that, ⁓ working on that one and creating custom buildings, things like that. ⁓ so it does happen for sure. ⁓ I I will say I would bet ninety ninety probably eight percent of the courses, maybe ninety-nine percent, are single designer built courses. and I will say that probably ninety percent of the courses out there have the designers have had input or help from another designer in the process. I'm having trouble here. What are your thoughts here? I have a lot, I do a lot of not as much in the summertime, but do a lot of ⁓ I try to give a lot back to the community by helping new designers. So I do a lot of where designers are doing their first course and they need some help where I'll do a discourse screen share and I'll walk them through this or they're having problems here. So there's a lot of collab. So while they're not a traditional like their names are on the collab, I can tell you myself and all of my my my cohorts on the in the and the design community are helping new designers all the time. I love that. Collaborative community in general. That feels good. Nice. Yep. Yeah. I mean the community is one of the real strengths of ⁓ GS Pro, isn't it? ⁓ Meshi, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that both from the user perspective and the and the designer community, but boy, it's extensive. You you guys have a a very ⁓ active group in Discord, very active group in Facebook, ⁓ and there's just seems to be a lot of Helping people ⁓ get into the space and then ⁓ further kind of utilize or maximize their experience. Yeah, there's there's an entire slew of videos. ⁓ admittedly some need to be updated now. I'm I'm a little bit slow on doing that. My my ⁓ I had a partner in crime that we used to do a YouTube show together, ⁓ and ⁓ he's doing some ⁓ f real life family stuff right now, but he created a whole series called None to Done. You can go to the ⁓ the design if you're interested in building, you can go to the ⁓ the OPCD Discord ⁓ channel. And then there's a getting started section and there's a link to the none videos, and they'll walk you through the prior prior process. And then there has been updated videos that other ⁓ Kenny Austin has done a whole bunch of really great updated videos that we need to upload under that site so they can see the updated. So that will walk you through the entire process. And then the like you had mentioned, Mark, the Discord. Any question, people like, hey, I'm running into a problem here. What are your thoughts on this? And there's always a slew of designers willing to give their ⁓ advice and input. I, you know, I I've always tried to say, ⁓ it it was a to be honest, a bit of an adjustment for me, which is I don't want people to make courses like me, I want them to make them like themselves. But I didn't necessarily always think like that. It wasn't I was always like, I wouldn't do it. Well, don't do it like you know. So I've had to learn myself about each designer needs to find their own design philosophy and their own design ⁓ look and feel for it. And so, like, you know, we'd never call anybody, you never call somebody else's ⁓ baby ugly or something, whatever that you don't call somebody other courses ugly just because you wouldn't have done it that way. You you give them, you help them the tools and the technique and maybe give them some guidance and let them kind of discover it as they go. ⁓ and so ⁓ there's a there's a lot of that in the community. I I don't know and there and we do everything from like ⁓ there was ⁓ there's there's a there's a there's a there's a tree share, for example. And that this is a small thing, but I think it's an interesting thing. There's a tree share channel where somebody is like, Hey, I am looking for this, there's a picture. I'm looking for this type of tree. It's a distinct tree that needs to go on my course. And there's Whether this other designer is saying, ⁓ I've got one like that. Here's a link. You can I created it. You can use it. It's not a it's not a paid asset that I can't share. Yeah, I can share it. Or it's like, ⁓ here's I can make it for you because I have the ability or the skills to make it for you and you don't. Or or ⁓ you should use this tree instead because ⁓ it's close enough for people to recognize it. But not having to go buy spend your own money to buy a tree or something like that. I will tell you the I learned it something from Cook, ⁓ who runs he Cook runs ⁓ SGT. ⁓ he builds courses as well. He runs the entire SGT site for all the tournament golf and things on there. He taught me earlier early on in my career you don't have to have the exact same tree. You need to have a tree that looks similar, but it looks good. As long as you've got trees that look really good, you don't so for example, if you don't put a cottonwood down, but you put a broadleaf down, it looks similar but it looks great. Do that. Don't put a cottonwood down that doesn't look good just because it's a cottonwood. It's more important to have trees that look good than trees that just are the exact tree that don't look good. And the and the placement of those features ⁓ is very important. ⁓ Daniel, your your local course is available on GS Pro. And of course you live in an area that's that's hit hard with weather and and ⁓ including hurricanes and and Sometimes the course can change by way of nature knocking down trees and or the somebody coming back and replanting some in a different place. ⁓ kind of talk about your experience, ⁓ not a mashy design, but one that's maybe due for an update and that just kind of speaks to the how the community is continuously evolving or this is continuously a living, breathing thing. Yeah, it it was confirmed by some of my ⁓ the, you know, guys that have lived there longer than I have that the golf course did at one time look the way that it does on G S Pro. And in, you know, some early conversations that we had ⁓ leading up to this, you know, we kind of learned that ⁓ maybe the satellite imagery just didn't have the updated, you know, trees or something might have been taken out by weather or, you know, we have all the time, ⁓ we have a lot of termites ⁓ down in the keys too. So I mean they they can get into trees and then eventually just a a normal windstorm can blow a tree over. Yeah. ⁓ Overall the design ⁓ of Key West Golf Club on there is really, really close. I mean, they even have the cars going by on US one right next to the third and fourteenth and the seventh holds. Awesome. I mean, it they do have some oversized chickens kind of along the golf course, but ⁓ it's still it kind of it adds to the vibrant lifestyle that we have. ⁓ so at the end of the day, you know, it's it's just cool to see those things because you you're like, okay, he's he maybe he's actually been here before and has seen it before you know before he designed the course. ⁓ but there was a few a few palm trees that I didn't recognize being there. It actually I I actually enjoyed that they were there. It actually made a couple of the holes a little more difficult. ⁓ and blocked some of the the corners that I actually cut off of holes now and and makes the golf course a little easier in real life than it is, ⁓ maybe the way it used to be. So it is interesting to kind of learn about ⁓ how ⁓ how the designers do ⁓ encounter and and gain the the LiDAR information or the satellite imagery and it it may not always be perfect, but that's I think that's what's kinda cool is that, you know, over time I'm sure you can go back in and make updates and is that what you can do? Like if if you see something that's like changed you can go in and update and re release so you don't have to start from scratch all over again. For s for sure. ⁓ I I I I tend to do that. ⁓ Chambers Bay, for example, I released Chambers Bay and then I had some people come back and say, Hey, the water is way too dark. It looks like black oil out there. It wasn't as blue as it needed to be. So then I updated it and then it was too blue. I had some people complaining that it was now it was too blue. It looked like an ocean, not like the bay and so on. You know, so yes, we can do that. I was just looking up your key west. Guys, so T Love made that. He makes some really nice courses. So ⁓ that makes sense. It's it's it I'm sure it looks I've never played this one, but I'm sure it looks great. T T Love does great work. ⁓ I will say though, it's hard. What I mean by hard is when you have 30, 40, 50, 60 courses out there, and there's a couple of guys that have like, I think TechBud's got 175, maybe 200 courses. I think Pac-Ban's got 200 courses out there. It would be a full time job just doing updates. So I think what what I tend to do with and I only like I said, I only have I don't know, four, thirty, forty courses out there, whatever. ⁓ I I tend to wait and do an update when there's a tool change or if there is enough stuff that ⁓ unless it's something glaring like ⁓ in my Lakota ⁓ links course Danny out on the western slope of Colorado ⁓ there was a local who was a member out there who came back and said, I love your course, but man, your trees are all wrong. They are the absolute wrong tree. They doesn't look like it was in my head. Like I played it before and it looked like it was the same trees. And was like, So that one, like I was like, Well, I I don't want that course out there if I have the complete wrong tree out there, right? So I tend to I tend to pool updates together and when I have enough things to update, then I'll go back and do some updates. ⁓ unless there's like a glaring ⁓ mistake ⁓ Butterbrook a course I released recently ⁓ as part of my partnership with ⁓ with virtual T and I kept getting feedback it was in a commercial golf sim and I kept getting feedback like man every time somebody hits in the water on this course on this hole it hangs and I'm like I'm like I can't don't know what's going on can't don't know what you're talking about. I probably I tried on my I tried, tried tried tried tried it couldn't replicate it couldn't replicate it couldn't replicate it no matter how hard I tried. And but they kept saying there's an issue, there's an issue, there's an issue and finally I opened it up and I l in in in the tools and I realized I forgot to put hazards around all the waters. All the all the water. So GS Pro didn't know it was in a hazard. It was just in a body. It just went through the water plane. It was just in a body of water. So that was an issue on me that I'd I'd do an update and actually put all of the hazards on the course. Somehow I'd forgotten to put hazards on the course when I released it. So Like those updates I do regularly, but I don't go back and just do updates because a tree came down when the wind blew it. There's there's there's too much of that. Yeah. I will say like the first thing that ⁓ you know, our golf guys, we we play regularly throughout the week and then we also play a simulator league ⁓ you know, once a week. And we all as soon as ⁓ you know, the guy who owns the indoor facility for us like sent out a message like, Hey, they added QS golf club, like this is awesome. Like he even sent the video link of the flyover and everything. And we went out and we played and we could not believe how accurate the sloping and undulations of the of the putting greens were. ⁓ I mean, these are guys that have been playing at Key West Golf Club for for years and they they were just mind boggled that you that it could be that accurate. ⁓ because I I think that they were just expecting it to be okay, you know, it's just gonna be ⁓ close enough that it's fun to just kind of play the layout. But then when they were actually getting putts they've seen in real life, that was pretty cool. And I think that that's a testament to GS Pro and the way that you can get so detailed with this with this design process. It truly if if you've played a golf course in real life and then you can go play it on there and it you you can truly get that real feel of of playing that golf course. Well, Daniel, just to add to that, because to give you the behind the scenes on that, okay. We go into a tool called Greenskeeper, which is where we set all of our hazards, where we put our pins, we put our T's, things like that. Okay. In the pin setting, I can, we can, because the tools allow us, we can set it to whatever up to slope 13. So I set it to I set it to sorry, I set it to STIMP 13, and it will shade from green to red following the USGA 3% guidelines. You don't want to put any pins on greater than 3% slope. And so if There are times where there will be greens at Stimp 13. There is no place to put a pin because it's so undulating. So then there was a bit of a design discussion philosophy of do I then go into Blender and smooth some of the greens so that I have place to put pins, but I'm changing the lighter? Or do I just lower the slope to say, or the stemp to say, now at stimp 11, I can place my pins, and that's the max. Stimp, you should play on this green. That's my flaw. My philosophy is I never change the green from the LIDAR data. I use it as is. And if I can't place a pin because Stimp 13 is too fast, my philosophy is that course is not designed to be played at Stimp 13. It's designed to be played as Stimp 10 or 11. ⁓ so yeah, we actually place pins following that 3% guideline so that you're not sitting on a side of a hill that you can't get your pin to you can't get your ball to. That is really interesting. Someday they'll be teaching ⁓ GS Pro Ethics in college to wrestle with all of these decisions. But ⁓ truly fascinating. I mean really, really great stuff. ⁓ Mash, you got anything upcoming? Any anything you're working on right now? Or ⁓ and not to ask you to give away any any of your secrets, of course, but anything that's that's ⁓ imminently ⁓ due to be released. Yeah, I've got a couple of courses. I'm looking to get the local. These are local to Colorado. I'm looking to get the ⁓ Columbine Country Club. I have recently completed and looking to get that one released. ⁓ I believe that's Littleton, Colorado, just outside of Denver. Danny, I know you I have a ⁓ I did the ⁓ a few months ago I did the Cordillera summit. chorus, which is up in the mountains, and it is like, ⁓ my goodness, I I think it goes up to 13,000, ⁓ no, I think it's 11,000 or 12,000 feet at the peak, the top of it coming down. That one is ⁓ I so I have the mountain version of that course, which is the second chorus, ⁓ pretty much ready to go. And then near and dear to my heart, because I've played it a handful of times, is I'm working right now on Cherry Hills. ⁓ nice. So that Cherry Hills, I'm trying to put some design. So on the first T of Cherry Hills, there is a there is a brick ⁓ what do they call it? Like a brick ⁓ it's not a wall, but it's a brick structure with a plaque on it because it's where Arnold Palmer drove the green in the nineteen sixty US open. So I'm building all of that kind of stuff on that course because it is a really historic course. So th that one's in the works right now. That's super cool. Great timing with Wyndham Clark's ⁓ home home club. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Yep. Perfect. Yep. Yep. So I've got that one. It's about eighty five percent complete. The trees are all planted, the grass were planted. I've played it in my sim. ⁓ it's fun to play. ⁓ plays like in real life. I've played in real life about four times and it it plays very much like in real life. I'm working on all the nice little details. They did a massive renovation on the clubhouse. I'm trying to redesign it to match it. I just can't find any pictures of the new clubhouse. I'll keep an eye on ⁓ things like that. Danny, you're gonna be busy, man. You're ⁓ you're their local. There's a lot of mashy designs to get out and play. I there's a lot I haven't played, so I've I've got a lot on my to do list now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Daniel and I have had a lot of really good discussions on this pod, and ⁓ this definitely ⁓ ranks up there as as a favorite. ⁓ Daniel, anything else before we ⁓ let these guys go? Yeah, such a cool experience. ⁓ you know, I think it takes me back to the golf course architecture design class I took in college, believe it or not. And ⁓ You know, obviously not as not as ⁓ you know, impactful on worrying about drainage and worrying about where all that's gonna go, obviously. ⁓ but certainly, ⁓ certainly ⁓ a really, really cool conversation. Obviously, really thank you guys, ⁓ both Mashy and Danny for joining us. and kind of just walking us through that entire experience to just kind of let us peel back the curtains and and see what goes into all the hours enjoyment that we as simulator golfers get to enjoy. So ⁓ hopefully on behalf of everybody I can say thanks for all the hard work you put in there, Mashey, because it really is enjoyed by by a lot of people globally. Pleasure. It's it's a ton of fun and thanks for having me on, guys. I appreciate it. Danny, you're local. Let's get together and go play. And if you want to play in the sim, let me know. Let's go ⁓ let's go fire up some courses. We'll make it happen for sure. That's awesome. Thank you both. ⁓ very well said, Daniel. ⁓ reminder to everyone to please ⁓ like and subscribe to the channel if you like this coverage. Join us next week for for more ⁓ similar content. And I would encourage everyone to go check out Danny's Garage Golfers channel on YouTube. That was the origin again of how we how we got here today. And a big thank you to Danny for making that video. It's a very good one. If somebody wants to get a good look at just how close a mashy design is to the in-person experience, ⁓ Danny lays it out perfectly at Fossil Trace there in Colorado. ⁓ so everybody please check that out. ⁓ Mashe, thank you. Danny, thank you. ⁓ Daniel, we will see you next week, right? All right. Yeah, totally excited for another week here on the pod. And ⁓ yeah, thanks guys. ⁓ really appreciate it. That was fun. You gotta thanks everybody. Thanks, Mark. All right, thanks again. See ya. Bye.