Latest / The Reformatory / Is The Local Church Man-Made?

Transcript

Is The Local Church Man-Made? · The Reformatory

0:00
[SPEAKER_05]: What do you got for me?
0:02
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
0:32
[SPEAKER_05]: As long as I'm not for me, we're gonna have the bend addiction right there, that was so good.
0:36
[SPEAKER_02]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the reformatory of the podcast for the local church, and by the local church, and we are your local churchman.
0:43
[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Josh, and I'm here with the captain, Jack Barry Jack, my man, eventful weekend for me.
0:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got a little taste of the little taste of the celebrity life Yeah, you did It did the what it's like to be part of the influencer being an employee I got moved up from like the the sealist Avengers to the a-list Avengers.
1:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I had I had my moment
1:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Seedless.
1:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's right.
1:15
[SPEAKER_03]: You went from you went from deadpool x-force to the actual Avengers.
1:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, to the actual Avengers.
1:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no had a little had had had a little little little little tweet go out that went went went a little bonkers got picked up by old hb
1:33
[SPEAKER_02]: HB Charles and uh, and uh, yeah, that kind of, that was wild.
1:38
[SPEAKER_02]: That was wild to see.
1:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm glad it was encouraging.
1:40
[SPEAKER_02]: It was cool.
1:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really glad it wasn't like, like a dumb tweet, you know?
1:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, it was actually like edifying, you know, at least seeing the wasn't like a stupid one.
1:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know, or whatever.
1:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, be your classification of a dumb tweet, Josh.
1:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what would be a dumb tweet.
1:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Like me being like sarcastic or something like that,
2:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, because I've been doing, you know, I've been tracking weight loss on, you know, over on the on the Instagram, right, post and yeah, post and golf videos and things like that.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And like the crazy thing with social media is you never
2:16
[SPEAKER_02]: you can't predict what's going to, what's going to pop and what's going to not.
2:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'll have, I'll have reals where something funny will happen, I'll be like, oh, this is going to kill nothing.
2:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it'll just be like a video of me making double bogey on a par 3 and it gets, you know, 40,000 views.
2:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, okay, yeah, well, I give up.
2:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess that's why I mean, at least it was, at least it was one of the good ones.
2:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
2:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was cool.
2:43
[SPEAKER_02]: That was cool.
2:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I got hit up by like four different people like dude HP HP HP I'm like why I don't know who that is and I'm like oh this guy.
2:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, Charles.
2:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's cool.
2:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Dr. Dr Charles.
2:57
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he's a doctor.
2:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Is he doctor?
2:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
2:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he's a doctor.
3:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I gotta give him his flesh.
3:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Got to put the respect.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Put the respect on.
3:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that was fun a little bit, but other than that, Lord's day went well.
3:10
[SPEAKER_02]: We are moving right along.
3:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We're looking forward to the Pactum Conference, have we talked about that for a little bit, but Pactum Conference coming up first week of October, your boys are going to be there and we want you all to be there also, because a little reformatory meet-up, a little reformatory invasion.
3:29
[SPEAKER_02]: The captain is going to lead us in his
3:33
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel left.
3:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about.
3:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about invasion.
3:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say tactical operation tactical operation This is gonna be like this is gonna make the Maduro.
3:45
[SPEAKER_03]: This is gonna make the Maduro operation in Venezuela Look like a Wendy's drive through okay, like this is 100% 100% yeah
3:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully we don't end up in a blackhawk down situation.
3:57
[SPEAKER_02]: If so.
3:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.
3:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't want to die in Omaha, Nebraska man.
4:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've got a lot of I got a lot of great lead out spots out here in the P and W dying in Omaha is not on my list.
4:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
4:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
4:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I do not want to die in a non-sienic place.
4:14
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry, I'm a hailed somewhere in the middle of the world.
4:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I would rather, yeah, I would rather die near Mount Rainier than in other in Omaha, Nebraska.
4:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I want my mountains man.
4:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be able to look at the mountains and lead out peacefully.
4:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, on a side of a dirt road.
4:29
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like that Thanos moment, the Thanos moment at the end of the adventure, yeah, where she's like six there and died.
4:36
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I want that I want that moment, you know, just look out to Mount Rainier one more time and then, you know, yeah, go go die So take me home Lord take me home.
4:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, not no mom.
4:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, hey, but you know, it's gonna be great We're gonna bring some of that PNW energy.
4:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's gonna be edgy.
4:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's gonna be fun It's gonna be a good time.
4:53
[SPEAKER_02]: There's gonna be a lot of I mean, I'm assuming to this one I haven't heard otherwise, so I'm assuming that you know
4:58
[SPEAKER_03]: the after parties with us man like you wherever the reformatory is and that's where the party's at right we're basically i think that's i think that should be honestly patch should try and go with that like after parties should just be hosted by us i like pick some venues pat we'll bring the cigars we'll bring the energy
5:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You just show up.
5:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You just show up.
5:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like a show up.
5:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
5:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's game.
5:24
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a great idea.
5:25
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a great idea.
5:26
[SPEAKER_02]: No hundred percent.
5:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in a hundred percent.
5:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's going to be a good time.
5:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully you listeners can make it to the Pactum conference.
5:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Jack and I are looking forward to it.
5:34
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be great.
5:34
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get some good video content.
5:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Might have to bring the mics and stuff because we'll have to maybe do some.
5:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to go out there?
5:40
[SPEAKER_03]: We might have to make a whole like Reformatory rides.
5:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Like segmented little log.
5:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's gonna have to happen.
5:50
[SPEAKER_02]: The only thing that sucks is we're not flying together So that's the only thing because our schedules are so busy right now.
5:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're flying differently.
5:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So That's gonna that's gonna throw a wrench to things, but that's okay while we're there though.
6:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, are there you can't you can't observe me?
6:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, nurse a bag of guardeados, you know, for a six and a COVID flight.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, on a COVID flight.
6:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I got to say that was that was a wild trip.
6:16
[SPEAKER_03]: It was on a on a COVID flight mainly because the COVID flights were like really empty versus now they're just like right they'll pack you back in like sardines again 100% 100% but yeah, absolutely.
6:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
6:30
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, Jack.
6:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get to our topic for today because other crazy stuff.
6:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, our topic for today kind of stemmed out of out of out of this whole thing.
6:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, we're going to get to that before we do it's everyone's favorite segment.
6:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget to eat your instant grams.
6:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And know the time you've been waiting for.
6:50
[SPEAKER_01]: No, if I'm a direct broadcast presenter, don't forget to eat your instant grams.
6:55
[SPEAKER_01]: With your host, Josh Loftus, on Jack Mary.
6:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And remember, kids, it's not heresy if you're believable, hard enough.
7:04
[SPEAKER_02]: this is don't forget to eat your Instagrams remember kids it's not heresy if you believe it hard enough that is how it works these days jack and apparently that is how it works because boy how do you do i've got a first clip for me here we go i think this i i don't know looking at this video i think this kid might be 15 years old
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I don't I don't know but he can't be older.
7:27
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's not good.
7:28
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a good thing.
7:29
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a good thing.
7:31
[SPEAKER_04]: As I get it, I'm a child of God, baby.
7:34
[SPEAKER_04]: You have zero chance according to scripture for you to get sick.
7:40
[SPEAKER_04]: So knowing that why is it that things come our way?
7:45
[SPEAKER_04]: It's because the devil the devil is stubborn.
7:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Does it realize he already lost?
7:51
[SPEAKER_04]: So he thinks that he could still message you despite what God already said.
7:56
[SPEAKER_04]: So then they comes your way, trying to make you feel discouraged.
8:00
[SPEAKER_04]: And I guess the Bible don't work.
8:02
[SPEAKER_04]: And I guess this thing, you know, is just for a few people here and there.
8:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
8:09
[SPEAKER_02]: So apparently he has more chance of getting pregnant than he does say, or no, he said he said the same chances.
8:16
[SPEAKER_02]: The same chances.
8:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, Jack, that's that's what we've got going at the youth converges right now.
8:22
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I have a verse and I think it's in, I think it's in first Corinthians by Paul.
8:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I basically have one verse to repeat what he just said.
8:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
8:31
[SPEAKER_03]: It's all right.
8:31
[SPEAKER_03]: It's Paul when he was talking about, I'm pretty sure it was to the
8:37
[SPEAKER_03]: you know, taking, you know, the the supper unworthy.
8:40
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, some of you have become sick.
8:43
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all, that's all my verse.
8:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of you, congratulations.
8:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Congratulations.
8:46
[SPEAKER_03]: You, you have been debunked kid.
8:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, uh, no, it's true.
8:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
8:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, one verse did debunk what you just said.
8:53
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right, right.
8:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's not mention, I don't know, Paul's entire life.
8:58
[SPEAKER_02]: A struggle in hardships, right?
9:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's, let's not, let's, let's not worry about that.
9:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's, that's the devil's fault.
9:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the devil's fault, Jack.
9:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Jack, we're gonna hop over to another, another, another pastor, you know, quote-unquote, pedaling his wares here, and this guy, this guy is doing, this guy's doing something interesting.
9:19
[SPEAKER_02]: He's decided not to do an offering, but his reason, his reasoning is, is interesting.
9:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Lord, tell me, don't do that.
9:31
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're doing the offer, isn't all that bad?
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So he'll text the people.
9:34
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, just he said, command the whole house to give one seed to get their $100.
9:40
[SPEAKER_02]: There it is.
9:41
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, start it out, start it out, all right.
9:45
[SPEAKER_03]: And we don't do them no offer.
9:46
[SPEAKER_03]: We just need a one time tax deliverable gift.
9:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what we're not going to do an offer in today.
9:52
[SPEAKER_02]: God told me not to.
9:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of an offering, we're going to have an offering.
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think he's telling him if they trust and believe I showed him how God works so I landed up in the middle out if you sacrifice
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: God say, tell them, this week will be the best week of your entire life.
10:14
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're your last, I want to sacrifice just to see what God's going to do in 24 hours.
10:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, no, 20 more people.
10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: If $100 is a lot of money for you, don't move.
10:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they, they know money.
10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I promise you.
10:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing something I've never do and I don't do it for a Sunday, but I told the maintaining and what God told me to do.
10:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody that sacrifice it and giving that small seed, I'm putting oil on you.
10:43
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
11:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Got him.
11:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no offering today instead of an offering, we're going to take your money a different way by coercion, by extortion, by extortion, by extortion, even, oh my gosh, man, what our church is doing these days, Jack, I mean, Jack, wouldn't you say that the main reason that all this happens?
11:35
[SPEAKER_02]: right at the core of all this happens is that the local church, honestly, at the end of the day is really just a man-made system.
11:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't you say it's just kind of conjured by like there's nothing really in scripture that talks about the benefits of gathering together on the Lord's Day that honestly are understanding of the worship service and on gathering on Sunday.
12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: It really is just man-made.
12:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't you say that, Jack?
12:04
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
12:33
[SPEAKER_03]: a denomination didn't redeem you, a pastor didn't rise from the grave for you, a one-hour presentation does not perfect to you.
12:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Emotional songs don't sanctify you only Jesus saves, and as much of what we do in our Christian journey is built around performances programs and personalities, I don't say this to criticize, I say this as a reminder to myself and others who
13:01
[SPEAKER_03]: we're supposed to serve be like Christ and point to Him.
13:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, I mean that first the first half.
13:10
[SPEAKER_03]: basically, just says it all.
13:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, if you want, we're going to do this, the typical Pacific Northwest way and parse and basically take something and say, this is bad, we should do this instead, right?
13:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
13:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So, all of what he just said is basically coming at local churches.
13:34
[SPEAKER_03]: in a very snarky way, right?
13:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I get it, like there's there's but there's the problem with the way that he's doing it is a lot of half-truths, right?
13:44
[SPEAKER_03]: So we would all agree, biblically, yeah, the the church is not a building, okay?
13:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, of course.
13:50
[SPEAKER_03]: But you don't need to snarkly say, oh well, a building didn't die in the cross for you.
13:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I think we all get that.
13:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's this it's this tired argument of people using extreme examples to justify something that honestly shouldn't be justified right and and yeah, it is a very I don't know if passive aggressive is the right term, but very very kind of end-around way to to make a point without having to make the point right because that that's it's it's it's very manipulative way of doing it right you you want to say
14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: church is an important right church like we like we don't need to prioritize church that's what you want to say but you know you can't say that so instead what you do is you go around what you're trying to say through the back door and say okay well I mean the church the church is a people it's not a building
14:44
[SPEAKER_02]: what you're saying there is you don't think we should be gathering in a building together.
14:49
[SPEAKER_02]: A pastor didn't die for you.
14:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Jesus died for you.
14:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what you're saying there is you don't think you need to be submitted to pastors, right?
14:58
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we don't need, we just need our
15:09
[SPEAKER_02]: is that you want it just you and, you know, God under a peach tree and you don't want to have to be held accountable to anyone or anything, right?
15:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's an age-old way of doing it.
15:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's manipulative to be completely honest and it's getting around to trying to say and do the exact same thing without having to actually come right out and say, I don't like the local church and
15:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and, and I mean, I responded to that whole original post with and yet God has chosen the means of his gathered church on the Lord's Day, pastors, and worship services for reminding us the beauty of the gospel in his grace.
15:53
[SPEAKER_03]: And then came the most...
15:58
[SPEAKER_03]: haven't pulled it out for a while that deserved it well done cave and then came the most odd just comments I've ever seen on Facebook from somebody who claims to be a Christian the first was saying that typical Pacific Northwest not to be confrontation on all this guy starts out with yeah but Kings show but can you show me in the new
16:29
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just like, yes, excretion, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he, but he proceeds to kind of like shoot himself in the foot too with the proof text he uses like, he goes, they're not to be found.
16:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And he goes, our whole lives are to be worship services.
16:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
16:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And then he goes, the most prescriptive and descriptive text as to why we gather and what we do at our gatherings are the breaking of bread in Acts 27 and first Corinthians 1133.
17:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And then to actively participate in building one another up per first Corinthians 14, 26 to 30 and Hebrews 10, 24 through 25.
17:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I walked through the historical basically, hey, you know, an X27 literally proves what you're talking about, like worship services existed.
17:25
[SPEAKER_03]: So like your whole idea is mute on that.
17:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And then on top of that, X242,
17:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it goes again and talks about how worship was happening, right?
17:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Even I cited church history where Justin Martyr talks about how churches are meeting in he's describing a worship service, a Lord's Day service happening in a local church that's actually in a home home.
17:51
[SPEAKER_03]: It's in a home gathering, right?
17:53
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's on the building necessarily.
17:55
[SPEAKER_03]: It's in a home that they're doing the Lord's Day service at.
17:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And he just fires off at me.
18:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And says, let me reinstate it.
18:05
[SPEAKER_03]: God didn't choose worship services as the means of anything in the new covenant.
18:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And my clothes are okay.
18:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, men made up the worship service and elevated it above the scripture.
18:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And the actual means God chose.
18:22
[SPEAKER_03]: That's all I'm saying.
18:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like,
18:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how you think that you're believing the Bible with also like basically going against it at the same time is doing anybody favors, but it's not, it's just not.
18:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And I just, I think it just goes back to what Josh and I talk about on this podcast is that the Pacific Northwest is different because we have this very frontier-minded ideology when it comes to spirituality and religion,
18:55
[SPEAKER_03]: when you get on the organ trail and you go out to the Pacific Northwest like it all all conventional thinking about Christianity in the past is gone.
19:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Throw that away.
19:09
[SPEAKER_03]: You're just reinventing new things at this point in time.
19:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
19:12
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like this is just another one of those things.
19:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean call it progressive Christianity if you want to.
19:18
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean this is just I think this is just honestly just
19:22
[SPEAKER_03]: ignorance and naivety at its best while just not wanting to do what Christians for centuries have done, which is just say to themselves, I'm not my own.
19:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, and I know I'm not I'm not my own because I go to my local gather church every Lord today service and I think about why I'm not my own And I feel like this screams I am I am I am my own and I can and I can show you how I am my own like those comments screen that
19:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And to me that's anti what I think what the whole New Testament is about to be quite honest just the wild part to me is to say there's no like
20:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I was boggled when he said something along the lines of like the worship service has no no real meaning in the New Testament or in the New Covenant.
20:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Then yeah, it's like okay, so how is Jesus gathered with his people?
20:27
[SPEAKER_03]: He's gathered in it on the Lord's Day.
20:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
20:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
20:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And how does he, how does he give spiritual blessing and spiritual nourishment?
20:36
[SPEAKER_03]: It's through the supper on the Lord's day.
20:38
[SPEAKER_06]: Mm-hmm.
20:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that doesn't just come out of nowhere.
20:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, and I don't know how you basically, I don't know, a apologetic yourself into thinking that those services don't count for anything.
20:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I think too, it's just like, you just go back to just the apologetic of Sunday.
21:00
[SPEAKER_03]: how Jesus rose on Sunday, right?
21:03
[SPEAKER_03]: We should every Sunday should be a reenaction of why the resurrection is important to us with our gathered brothers and sisters, right?
21:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
21:14
[SPEAKER_03]: So why not take part of that and have spiritual nourishment of the gospel in his grace, help you versus
21:25
[SPEAKER_03]: which is like, I feel like you're just spurning that.
21:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you're not doing anything for yourself because because being part of a local church requires something of you, if we're going to understand a correctly, right?
21:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's just just the the the statement itself that there's no new testament.
21:43
[SPEAKER_02]: there's no new testament evidence for the local church gathering together is just honestly it's extremely ignorant you got I mean Christ talking about how believers you know
21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Reconcil with each other in Matthew 18.
21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got Hebrews 10 not forsaking our own assembling together.
22:02
[SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean?
22:03
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the Lord's.
22:03
[SPEAKER_02]: They gathering first Corinthians five first Corinthians 11 first Corinthians 14 slew of james to right.
22:15
[SPEAKER_03]: of Paul practically going to people towards the day services and they're not.
22:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And here's the thing too.
22:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sorry.
22:22
[SPEAKER_03]: They're not in.
22:23
[SPEAKER_03]: They're not in.
22:24
[SPEAKER_03]: See, so what he, what I think he's trying to reference is the fact that we've made it a time and a place.
22:31
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, okay, I think most modern Christians can agree that it's like we understand that like,
22:37
[SPEAKER_03]: stuff like grows and changes over time from every culture and place and time.
22:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So just because the Lord's Day service happens in like the Middle East in an in an evening and it happens in America at 10 a.m. that doesn't negate the fact that it's still the same thing that we're trying to work
22:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
22:58
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it, it, it, it doesn't, but even the early church made it a time in a place as 20 on the first day of the week when they were gathered together to break bread like that is a time in a place right it's like it's like how do you not get that guys.
23:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when Paul sends his letters, he's sending them to churches.
23:18
[SPEAKER_02]: He expects them to be read to the church.
23:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That even in that applies that they are together, right?
23:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's the argument that somehow the local church is not seen in the pages of the New Testament is frankly one of the most ignorant and bonkers arguments that you can make.
23:39
[SPEAKER_02]: and people will make that either out of ignorance or what I think is even more prevalent out of a desire to not have to be held accountable to something.
23:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And the best way to not have to be held accountable to something is to try to convince yourself that that thing does not exist.
23:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the exact reason atheists exist.
24:01
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to have to be held accountable to the truth that there is a God.
24:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And if there is a God, that means that they are created.
24:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they're created, that means there's something of them that is required by that higher power, however they want to define that.
24:16
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, it's the same thing.
24:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very atheistic way of thinking and practicing.
24:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to pretend this thing doesn't exist.
24:25
[SPEAKER_02]: so that I don't have to think about it or worry about the implications that it would have on me if it did.
24:33
[SPEAKER_02]: That is I think at the crux of the vast majority of arguments like this is people don't want to have to be held accountable.
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: to other people.
24:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's just not a PNW thing.
24:45
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an American thing.
24:46
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a people thing.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
24:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
24:49
[SPEAKER_03]: So that is the story thing.
24:50
[SPEAKER_02]: None of us have an innate desire in and of ourselves to be accountable to somebody.
24:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to be our own gods.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to be our own authority.
24:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That's just how it works.
25:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're part of a local church,
25:04
[SPEAKER_02]: that does not give you that option.
25:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're part of a local church that is, I think structured correctly and has the correct understanding of the purpose of the church, how the church functions, correct polity again.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, shout out, reform, baptist, ecclesiology.
25:20
[SPEAKER_02]: This is why I'm in the camp that I'm in is because I think it provides the best guardrails for healthy membership to happen,
25:32
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you can just pretend like those things don't exist, then you don't have to confront it in your head.
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's where a lot of these arguments come from is people just don't want to be held accountable to something.
25:45
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's just pretend like it doesn't exist.
25:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Put let's put our heads in the sand and claim very ignorantly that the new testament, that that that that that that the idea of the gathering on the lords day is a man made.
26:00
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, a man made tradition, not only now are you exposing your, I think your desire not to be held accountable, but you're also exposing some pretty blatant ignorance.
26:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and just to say, I mean, this is why I'm so focused to on church history and a local church context where you have to have people to know what happened.
26:28
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to have kind of like your own like chronicler of like church history at your local church to remind people of like why why we do the things that we do.
26:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean,
26:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Why we say the things that we say, why we confess the things that we confess.
26:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this goes back, I mean, if we're Protestant, it's as easy as saying, like, trying to chronicle back the reformation and all that.
26:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Now,
26:50
[SPEAKER_03]: For this kind of nonsense, I have to go back a little bit farther and just say that is chronological snobbery right there, as Lewis would say, to say that the Lord's Day service is a man-made thing, like tell that to all the apostles.
27:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
27:11
[SPEAKER_03]: That are gathering on the Lord's day.
27:12
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
27:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Tell that totally apostles then.
27:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:16
[SPEAKER_03]: And see how that goes.
27:17
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not going to go well for you when you meet Jesus.
27:21
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, and say, why you had all these opportunities to go and receive.
27:28
[SPEAKER_03]: basically the gospel over and over and I think this is to the idea that like we can graduate from the gospel.
27:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like this is this idea again as well too of, I don't need the gospel anymore.
27:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I graduated from that.
27:42
[SPEAKER_03]: All I need is my brothers and sisters in some sort of country club gathering, which I don't even know what that looks like to be quite honest, because at that point you're refudiating all of the text when it comes
27:59
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, when Paul is talking about how the structure of the church would be and about how God is giving out spiritual blessings for people to be pastors and leaders and overseers and evangelists and stuff like that.
28:11
[SPEAKER_03]: At that point, you're just going to have to throw the whole authority of the scripture.
28:17
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know what you're even standing on at this point.
28:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you're trying to use the scripture as authority and then you're you super you super against authority as well too by saying that oh well those texts don't really matter and at that point I mean your chronologically kind of like um not polleges gosh what was his name where he kind of erased the Old Testament
28:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, he is a, he's like, D guy when it comes to like heretics for people to look at and say like, don't be like this guy.
28:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I usually say that's because I'm, it's not plagued because plagian was he was focused on something else.
28:59
[SPEAKER_03]: It was another guy who basically,
29:02
[SPEAKER_03]: He kind of did a Thomas Jefferson version of the Bible, too, where he got rid of the Old Testament and then all he wanted to put is like Luke and I think some of Paul's rhetoric letters and that's about it.
29:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh man.
29:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, dude, it's not, it's not Donutism.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah, I don't know.
29:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry.
29:24
[SPEAKER_03]: L come to me.
29:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:27
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's I can't like you surfing the Bible's authority while also trying to stand on it is the most wildest Pacific Northwest thing you could do, but it's like that fits the bill.
29:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:40
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it does.
29:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it's and it's just it.
29:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it it is a
29:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it just shows an individual's arrogance, I think, right, because it takes an arrogance to think that somehow God has special rules for you, and he's going to, you know, you are going to now, or have always been, right, the barometer of how scripture should be interpreted.
30:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
30:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, we're not saying that the purview of the church is the correct, you know, interpreter of Scripture, right?
30:19
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not Catholic.
30:20
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not saying that the church controls the interpretation.
30:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But what, but, but what we are saying is that an individual who wants to be a faithful Christian cannot be so outside of the local church.
30:34
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't because God has
30:38
[SPEAKER_02]: that his people should gather together and through that gathering be sanctified.
30:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And like that's how he has done it and that's clear in his word.
30:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not ambiguous as some would want to try to claim.
30:57
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't get to make the rules when it comes to how our sanctification is administered to us.
31:04
[SPEAKER_02]: God has given those means.
31:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately, it is by His word through the Holy Spirit.
31:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are many means that God has ordained for His people to be sanctified.
31:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And the local church is one of the primary ones.
31:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So people don't want that because sanctification
31:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That is outside of our own definition of what we want that to look like can be painful and that can hurt and it's not comfortable But news flash sanctification is not meant to be comfortable.
31:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right?
31:38
[SPEAKER_02]: We're saying to fight the most and when things are uncomfortable That's just that's just that's just how it works.
31:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So
31:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a Taylor's oldest timejack, but the local church is indeed a new testament concept.
31:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It is very clear in that, and it is by no means a man-made tradition.
31:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very, very, very much part of God's plan, and I think that's very evident.
32:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, his name was the guy that I'm trying to think of as Marcian, Marcianism to where he was saying that there's two gods, one god of the Old Testament who's vengeful and hateful and then Jesus.
32:19
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I'd rather go with Jesus and it's like, no.
32:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So he gets rid of the old Testament.
32:24
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would say two, yes, that's just terrible.
32:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I would say two, like it goes back to a couple of lords days ago, where one of our former fasters came back and did a one-off sermon on the whole book of Jude.
32:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Preeched on the whole book of Jude straight through it.
32:43
[SPEAKER_02]: One shot.
32:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, one shot, one kill.
32:46
[SPEAKER_03]: He's a former ranger, so that makes sense.
32:49
[SPEAKER_03]: But so it was so telling because he talked about Jonathan Edwards church.
32:56
[SPEAKER_03]: and how, you know, that church now completely refudiates the idea that Johnson Edwards is even the founder of that church back in, I think Boston, I don't know, it's somewhere in New England, I know that for sure.
33:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And now we just saw that with Martin Luther's church.
33:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Did you see this?
33:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Dude, I did see that with the bird?
33:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, they weren't Luther's church.
33:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what was it that it was an acceptance of of like, how do you think he used to be?
33:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.
33:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
33:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like the tale is oldest time is this as Paul just reminding us and even Jude reminds us as well as this too.
33:36
[SPEAKER_03]: There will always be these nefarious characters in the church.
33:44
[SPEAKER_03]: And there were always B people like like what we would I just dealt with over, you know, this last, I don't know if I call it a weekend, but this last week, to where they will try and you serve God's blessing through his local church.
34:00
[SPEAKER_03]: By way of just writing it off right.
34:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
34:05
[SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, we have so many warnings from Paul who just says, don't like, you have to stay on guard, right?
34:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like this person who wrote these things is really opening themselves up to just destruction.
34:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I would say spiritual destruction because they're already doing it right now and what they believe, but to go forward in that and be used in a way to try and say those things yeah like you're causing so much division for sure and you think that it's healing and it's actually the truth what it's really not
34:44
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's it's a tail is all this time and this is why Josh this is why Josh and I do what we do like we want to protect the local church Like there are people in your local churches that read a lot That keep up to speed on a lot of things because they want to keep on guard for this stuff when it comes up in their local church and If you had if I had a guy like this walking on Sunday and say stuff like this
35:12
[SPEAKER_03]: At like a we had like a our our first time visitors coffee connect we do this like every first first or second Sunday at a month right we're new visitors come in and they have some coffee we talk to them about you know what we believe and talk about you know kind of what we're doing and kind of vision for you know South Puget Sound area if we had somebody come in and just say stuff like this I would we would basically have to say like
35:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah.
35:43
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to go outside and have a talk.
35:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
35:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Because this isn't it.
35:49
[SPEAKER_03]: This is not it.
35:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah.
35:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Just somebody like that.
35:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it just even goes back to just.
35:57
[SPEAKER_03]: we had to deal with the excommunication.
35:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know about excommunication, but basically it was where people in local churches become members and then they go sideways sometimes.
36:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And they need to be treated like non-believers because
36:14
[SPEAKER_03]: they are just out of control and you need people in your local churches on multiple levels.
36:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Like some of it is doctrinally, some of it is a polyjetically, some of it is from church history standpoint and some of it is from just like the stance of like, hey, like just typical ethics, you know, if you have somebody in a local church,
36:38
[SPEAKER_03]: who is gonna attend your local church, but it is like sleeping around, like it's nobody's business, and isn't gonna repent about it.
36:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yeah, they need to not be there.
36:48
[SPEAKER_03]: They need to be treated like an unbeliever.
36:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
36:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
36:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, that's why...
36:53
[SPEAKER_02]: people will reject the idea of a local church.
36:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
36:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's because there's accountability, right?
37:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And people don't like it.
37:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
37:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And while the dirty word too, I think in our and modern society in the West is just this word surrender.
37:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
37:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
37:10
[SPEAKER_03]: You're surrendering your life.
37:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
37:12
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like people, I feel it's so evident.
37:17
[SPEAKER_03]: If you were to talk to Muslims about this, I see this all the time when I talk to Muslims,
37:23
[SPEAKER_03]: they are so big on surrender, matter of fact, they try and like, I suggestively put like that back into why people are Muslim, right?
37:34
[SPEAKER_03]: It's because they surrender, right?
37:36
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, okay, that's a good way of thinking, but it's like, I don't know if you're surrendering to the right thing, but so much of our society does not know what surrender looks like.
37:51
[SPEAKER_03]: And surrendering for the right reasons, too, yeah, that when, and I mean, yeah, this person could have like some hurt in their background, but I don't think that's an advantage like you take advantage of that in order to just say these random things without any real good evidence for why you're saying them, right, I think a lot of people would take
38:15
[SPEAKER_03]: what you're saying, it'd be like, have you even looked at the background on church history and scripture that you're saying?
38:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it doesn't add up.
38:25
[SPEAKER_03]: So no.
38:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think a lot of it has to go back to, like I said, we talked about this quite a bit on the podcast, but this idea of when people come out to
38:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Washington, North Idaho, Oregon area, Pacific Northwest, is very much a frontier spirit.
38:43
[SPEAKER_03]: They very much want to leave behind things of the past, and reinvent themselves, and reinvent how things are done.
38:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think that is a good prescription for how the kingdom of God comes.
39:00
[SPEAKER_03]: to a specific Northwest to be honest.
39:04
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's very true, man.
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, the local church is needed.
39:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's good, it's needed.
39:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It has what we need, and that's how God has planned it to be.
39:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's a good thing, that's not bad.
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So Jack, a lot more could be said, but why don't we get out of here and we'll go report some episodes for our patrons.
39:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, if you appreciate Josh and I's heart for the local church and how the Lord's day service is not a man-made invention.
39:30
[SPEAKER_03]: It is soaked in biblical principle, not only biblical principle, but even resurrection, apologetics.
39:38
[SPEAKER_03]: and how Jesus meets with his local church, every Lord's Day service, and gives out spiritual nourishment, as well as wisdom and strength to go forward in their Christian faith.
39:49
[SPEAKER_03]: You appreciate, just our commitment to that and commitment to your local church as well too, and how you can make that central to your life as a believer.
39:58
[SPEAKER_03]: You can follow us further on these sociables, if you will.
40:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, those dastardly little things, can follow us on meta, the Facebook if you will.
40:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Instagram, which is part of the meta.
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we'll do a non-shoot meta.
40:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Only, you know, have it with a little chocolate, marshmallows, sprinkle a little heresy on top of it, color of the day, or you could follow us on the dastardly little sociable.
40:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Formally called Twitter X, if you will.
40:29
[SPEAKER_03]: If you follow me, because I'm a celebrity.
40:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.
40:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right?
40:32
[SPEAKER_03]: You could follow us.
40:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And all those sociable platforms at the tag-up.
40:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Before my toy pod, you could drop us a direct message, episode idea, question, comment, concern, anything.
40:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Along those lines, you can do those on those platforms.
40:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Josh, you can double with me.
40:45
[SPEAKER_03]: People, how they might support us further.
40:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And our individuals.
40:48
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
40:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you can head on over to YouTube if you want to watch this as well as listen to it It's over there and the Instagrams are a lot more fun watching.
40:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I can attest to that personally like comment subscribe hit the little bell for notifications as the kids say you can write to this review and
41:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Right-of-review.
41:04
[SPEAKER_02]: You can rate and review this podcast on Hamilton Spotify is what I'm trying to say and we have a Patreon All right.
41:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the exclusive club of the reformer drawer.
41:13
[SPEAKER_02]: If you like what you hear and you want more Head on over to our Patreon.
41:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's $5 a month.
41:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It's less than an energy drink per month Great deal if you choose to do so our pledge to you is that your name shall be Halloween.
41:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, it's a hat
41:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello to the halls of the podcast.
41:30
[SPEAKER_02]: That is our pledge to you.
41:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We thank you all for listening and we'll catch you on the next step of the reformatory