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Motherhood vs. The Infertile Cult of Self-Expression · The Family Teams Podcast

• 0:00
  And that is that before the industrial revolution, the household was always an economic engine and the mother was always sort of in the center of that hub. And so the idea that she wouldn't have, you know, intellectual challenges in the home didn't make any sense. Of course, she was constantly challenged because she and her husband were a team trying to develop this economic engine.
• 0:21
  Hi, welcome to the Family Teams podcast. Our goal here is to help your family become a multi-generational team on mission by providing you with biblically rooted concepts, tools, and rhythms. Your hosts are Jeremy Pryor and Jefferson Bethke, and we can't wait to chat about all things family.
• 0:40
  Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Family Teams podcast. So as you guys know, we are ping-ponging back and forth between conversations with fathers, conversations with mothers. And so April and I have three ladies on the call with us today that we get to interact with in lots of different arenas of our lives. So we're excited to have them. We have Annalisa, who is a part of Family Teams. She helps us out with all kinds of operational things. And so she is Zooming in from Savannah, Holly Worley, Zooming in from Parker, and she's a part of the family team.
• 1:09
  Colorado. Her husband, Mike, is a part of Integrated, and so we've gotten to know them really well through that. They also did an amazing job doing a bunch of premarital counseling for our son, Jackson, and his wife, Angel. They're dear friends of our family. Then Jess Gagne, Zooming in from the Twin Cities in
• 1:29
  Minnesota. And so, and Jess and Taylor, we've known for a long time. They came to the first family teams weekend in Cincinnati and came to our house, which was awesome. And then we got to hang out with them through family Inc as they have been launching their first businesses. And so, so
• 1:44
  Excited to have you guys all here. So what we do is I just like to grab a couple of kind of hot topics that are kind of like around the whole family space, motherhood in particular, and femininity. And part of what we're trying to figure out is, okay, there's a particular lens that I think our paradigm of family...
• 2:04
  brings to these questions that I don't hear hardly anywhere. And so I want to stir up that conversation, see how each of you guys respond to these topics. So we've got two for you guys today. And so I'm going to read the first one. This is a tweet that got me thinking. So from his handles, Vocal Distance, I've heard him on different podcasts. He's just a really deep thinking sort of social critic, not necessarily on the left or the right, but definitely a
• 2:30
  zeroes in on a lot of the way that things are being framed in kind of more conservative or Christian circles. And so he had a take on what's happening within Christianity with regards to women that I thought was worth reacting to, responding to. So I wanted to get all y'all's thoughts on this. So this is what he wrote. The reason so many Christian women move left is that the Christian right has no vision for women except for wife and mom.
• 3:00
  It includes no academic or intellectual path or mode of being for women and leaves them with no place to be. It gives them a role to play, but no vision of a self to be or a story of her own to be a part of. She needs to slay dragons as well. The left at least gives women the option of some sort of self-expression.
• 3:28
  I do not think that progressive vision is good, but you must understand what it is appealing to. Okay. So I'm really curious what y'all think about this. I'll go ahead and put in the chat, the text. So you guys can look at this again or what he wrote there. But yeah, this is an interesting way to frame this. And I just want to say, first of all, that what he's saying that...
• 3:54
  There is a compelling vision for women on the left. And of course, part of what we try to do here is not get too overtly political. Our primary aim is to try to understand the way that God designed the family and the challenges and implications of that for our lives and for our families. But unfortunately, one of the things that is occurring today is that almost all family issues are being framed politically. And so-
• 4:19
  Because of that, it's stirring up, there's sort of a left and right coded way to think about family, femininity, motherhood, fatherhood. And so I don't think this was ever supposed to be political. There were times in which family issues like this were not political. You'd find just as many people, you know, Democrats, Republicans, really holding various traditional positions when it comes to the family. But that has changed. And I think that.
• 4:44
  So part of what's happening is sort of, I always want to sort of bemoan the fact that these conversations are becoming political as opposed to just strictly theological. I think these problems and these questions and challenges and opportunities are all theological at their base. And so I always like to think about, does the Bible give us a unique lens? But the couple of things that he's saying here that I think I would say, I think let's start with maybe where we might agree with where he's coming from. I do think that...
• 5:12
  If you were to just think about what is the vision for femininity, the vision for women, that at least the caricature of sort of the 1950s sort of Christian housewife does that.
• 5:27
  does that cause problems or does this cause the issues he's describing where there's not an opportunity for self-expression that it's, it's just too narrow. I think it's basically what he's saying. It's, it's too narrow for women to fit into. And I think that yes, there is, there is certainly some reality to that. Right. So, but in from the family team's lens, we're constantly trying to stir up this conversation around what is the family's vision and,
• 5:51
  And, and so I would say we have a very different way of viewing this and I'm excited to explore what that is. So April, I want to start with you and then go around the horn and get each of your reactions to what he's saying here. But I'm, I want to hear, you know, do you, do you, what, what about this do you feel like is like resonates and what feels dissonant and why about what he's saying here about the role of wives and mothers?
• 6:16
  I think it's interesting that he does frame it in a political, like you said, I don't, I don't really think of myself in that way, whether I'm leaning left or leaning right or in the context of family, if family is, well, he's also framing this in Christianity. He's saying like Christianity at large does not have a place for a woman to like be herself or.
• 6:39
  slay her dragons or whatever. And I don't really think that that's a tenant of Christianity. I think that that is how there are many different sects within Christianity. And I see how some of them, it does kind of play out. But I think that in this idea of a family, if you're looking at a family as a team, then you're looking at each member on the team and you're trying to understand
• 7:09
  You're looking at each person on the team and you're seeing like who God has put on the team, gifts, skill sets, gender, the way, the way we're made, what we're able to do, what we're not able to do, like all the different things we have limitations. So what those things are that make up our family team and then how, how our family team is going to then carry out. Yes.
• 7:34
  our mission that we're on. And so because I view myself as someone who's a part of a team,
• 7:41
  I'm thinking about how I can use my skill sets, my talents, my abilities, the way God's designed me, the things I'm good at to propel the team forward. So I'm not I'm not necessarily looking for a way to do that on my own. I think that there are things sometimes I have to do on my own to prepare myself to be more ready for what God has coming, whether it is, you know, taking classes. I think he he's saying there's no room for academic or intellectual education.
• 8:11
  mode for being a woman, which I have not personally experienced that I've been able to feel educated and academically challenged when I've needed to for the different things. I face many challenges in roles of being a mother and a wife that have helped me grow. I have, I would say slayed many a dragon mama style, I guess. I think it means different things for women than it does for men.
• 8:41
  There are some times in the Christian definition of things that it does seem narrow, like our definition of sexuality is one man, one woman.
• 8:51
  together for life. And so that is, you could call that very narrow, but God set it up that way. And he, he, so I want to be part of his design. He designed it that way. And so I believe that his design is best. And so I want to follow him in his way. So I, I don't really like to, I don't think it's a Christianity thing. Yeah.
• 9:17
  Yeah, pigeonholing it in that way. And I think the thing that, and Holly, I want to get your take on this next. I think the thing that you're saying, April, that is different about the way that we're approaching this is his primary critique is that, is that.
• 9:34
  Framing a woman in the context of wife and mother takes vision out of her life. And I think that's actually true because in most cases in the West, vision has been removed from the family and has been placed strictly in the arena of the individual.
• 9:51
  So once you've made that move, then you sort of force women to leave the family team, the arena of the family, to find a vision to be, like you sang. But I'm just saying, I think we need to take a big step back and look at that particular move. What if the family is a team and is the team through which...
• 10:09
  you do carry out is the arena through which you carry out the vision of your life, right? You wouldn't say, for example, that a university or a corporation doesn't give women a place to be because there's no vision there. No, there is a vision. Academic institutions are trying to accomplish things, right?
• 10:27
  Sports teams are trying to accomplish things. Corporations are trying to accomplish things. And because they're trying to accomplish things as teams, that allows for there to be a clear pathway for there to be a vision for the individuals that join those teams and are part of those institutions. The problem is that the family used to be one of those teams. The family used to be a place where...
• 10:49
  It had a vision. And so, and not only for the wife, but also for the husband. Like this was the primary arena through which husbands would also find how to be. And so what I think happened, and this is what we're trying to really resist and really return to, not to 1950s vision of the family in which,
• 11:09
  All of the vision is now in arenas outside the family and the father gets to pursue those things and the wife is stuck at home. We want a pre-1950s vision, a pre-industrial revolution vision of the family, which says that there is arenas, that the arena of the family is a place for vision. And that fathers and mothers, husbands and wives can, if they come back to that vision, pursue all kinds of ways to be in and through that team. But you do have to first make that move.
• 11:39
  begin to rethink about what the family is. If the family is a team on mission, then it starts to make sense of how both the husband and the wife and the children can, can find places to be through that team. But if you suck all the vision out of that team, then I think what he's saying starts to make more sense. Holly, what does this turn up for you? That's so good. Cause I think as we work with couples and we sit them down, we ask them, what is the vision for your marriage and your family? And if you don't have that vision, you're,
• 12:09
  then they think that they're in this place where, well, marriage is, it's kind of like the world, marriage is to make me happy. Well, if we're going from a Christian mindset, marriage is a covenant of dying to self. So you're giving up everything to serve another. And so as we help couples understand that, one of the things that I think about this is that,
• 12:28
  It's an identity thing. I, being a wife and a mom are roles that I play, but my identity is so much rooted deeper and so much more than that, that these are things that as we have talked about team language, I mean, we've talked so much team language and helped people understand that, that those are roles I get to play, but I get to play so many other roles too. So I've never experienced this where I have not had any freedom because I,
• 12:54
  I have slayed so many dragons because we have worked as a team and my husband has made it possible for me to be able to take on different things where I'm raising a daughter and two sons, but primarily as I'm looking at my daughter, who's pre tween.
• 13:09
  I'm teaching her how to be a strong woman who can function in the roles that God has given her, who can someday find a husband and get married and to be able to be all these things. But it's within the context of April, like what you said, God's vision. And sometimes it's more narrow, but that doesn't mean that there's not freedom there. So yes, it's so important.
• 13:33
  Yeah. So yeah, the, the, what, what is the vision of the family? And this is, this is where, you know, you go to the very first, the very first page of the Bible, it actually spells out the family's vision.
• 13:46
  And it says the family was created to be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule. And I think that when you think about that five-part mission of the family, given to both the husband and the wife, all that you're describing, Holly, that you're doing and raising your daughter and your sons, you're being fruitful. You're preparing them to be future fathers and mother in order to multiply your family line. And then all of the things and the missions that God calls your family to do in terms of
• 14:11
  of feelings of doing and ruling through the family. These are all elements of ways to be in and through the family to take full advantage of all the different gifts God's given you. It's just really an arena distinction. That's kind of the thing that really is striking me about this. He's basically saying that there is no way in and through the arena of family
• 14:33
  to experience these sort of academic challenges or to experience the kinds of dragon slaying hero opportunities to fully be who God's called you to be. And I think what that is hiding is that everyone is arena dependent. In other words, you have to find an arena. Like these aren't things you do as an isolated individual.
• 14:53
  right? You do them through teams. You do them potentially through academic teams or through corporate teams or through sports teams. You can find places, but the family is one of those entities and was designed to be the primary entity for women and men choosing to have children. And so that's what's different is that we're saying, no, the family can't be that entity through which you do the dragon slaying, through which you are on a mission. And that's
• 15:20
  And again, I think that what he's saying is accurate about 95% of even Christian families I've seen. Their families are not arenas through which you can do these things. Because of the way that they, I think the way it starts with the father saying, I'm only going to,
• 15:38
  to slay dragons apart from my family. I'm only going to experience my own ways of being apart from my family. And I think that so many fathers are doing that because they've never been, there's never been a vision cast for them and an Abrahamic vision of family where you can do this stuff through your family as a, as a multi-generational father, as a patriarch of a family. And so this then leaves the mother,
• 16:00
  in a terrible situation where that her world is narrowing and narrowing and narrowing because the, the actual family is not functioning like a team. And the person that was designed to lead the family, like a team is, has decided to join somebody else's team. And I think that's what creates a lot of the tension he's describing. So I definitely don't want to suggest that he's, he's what he's saying about the normal Christian families inaccurate. I think there is accuracy in what he's saying. I think that
• 16:28
  that we want to go one layer deeper and talk about, but this is a very recent problem. This is something that just in the last 150 years has cropped up in the Christian family. I don't think it's a part of the biblical design, but we just decided to adopt the same post-industrial revolution vision of family.
• 16:44
  that everyone else in the culture has. And that, that vision is it's only a springboard for individual success. The only way that the family is fueling you as is as an individual. And the only places where you're really experiencing thriving or being or identity are the times when you engage in arenas outside the, the context of the family. So Annalisa, what does this surround for you? Yeah. So I, when I first read this, it made me think of,
• 17:12
  my generation and how we were very much raised with the mindset of even all of my Christian friends raised the mindset of go to college, get a degree and do it on your own. And so that's what I thought of when, when I read this is like, this is actually probably like you were saying, Jeremy, pretty accurate for a lot of Christian families. But then when I look at it and I'm like, wait, I do slay dragons and my vision for family didn't really, this is.
• 17:42
  didn't change when I really dove into a relationship with Jesus. It changed when I got married. And so I think that's a distinction to make for me because,
• 17:55
  the vision of family makes a big difference. And the vision is I want to follow God, and he impacts that vision. And so I think that's an important distinction, because a lot of this doesn't really hit home, unless you have that mindset of my family is a team, we're springboarding, springboarding kids to be a part of that team, even into adulthood. So that's what that kind of serves up in me. But I also when
• 18:21
  He said something about self-expression. And I was thinking, I was like, to me, when I'm reading that, self-expression is like the clothes I choose to wear and the way that I do my hair and these different nuanced things that I can do no matter what. But...
• 18:41
  In this context, it's more, and I think that's probably cultural too, is that self-expression is now identity and it becomes a part of who you are. Like, I think what you were saying, Holly, is that it becomes a part of your identity is all of these other things instead of who you are in Christ.
• 18:58
  So yeah, that is interesting. He said he was describing the left at least gives women the option of some sort of self-expression. So yeah, I think what you're describing on Elisa, one of the things that's, that's I think being hidden and oftentimes the conversation around self-expression
• 19:14
  is that in order for you to express yourself, you first have to develop a skill-based identity, right? So if you're going to become a, like you're gonna express yourself through piano, you have to first spend oftentimes years under the discipline of some kind of instructor to help figure out how to do that. Or if you're gonna be a painter or what, like even using language, somebody's gotta teach you how to speak and how to write. And so in order for you to express yourself,
• 19:42
  And so these are identities that you can, you can say, look, I love being an artist. I love being a musician. You know, I love these skills that I get to use in terms of like sports or work kind of in a corporate sense, you know, that you might've developed through college or other programs. But what we seem to not acknowledge is that as much as every one of these things narrows, every one of these things says you have to do major sacrifices to get that identity and to experience that kind of self-expression.
• 20:11
  And then after you do that, then you begin to take on an identity, begin to express yourself in a new way that is an authentic part of who you are. But we're saying that motherhood can't be one of those things. Being a wife can't be one. It's too narrow. It's like, that is so strange to me. Like fatherhood and being a husband can't be one of those things. It's the same pathway, right? The same pathway of all these other expressions. I narrow down.
• 20:38
  And I make major sacrifices. I say, I'm going to make a covenant with my wife and I'm going to say faithful to her for life so that we can then experience what it's like to be a father and a mother. And then that also requires sacrifices and we develop skills as fathers and mothers to be able to experience that element of our identity. Now, that's just one of the reasons, by the way. I think one of the things that I really want
• 21:05
  what really grates on me. And so let me put a pin in that. We're saying there is a pathway to self-expression as a father, mother, husband, wife. However, the thing that's really hidden or sort of being assumed in what he's saying here is that self-expression is
• 21:21
  is the ultimate goal is the ultimate thing that we're aiming at, right? This is, and this is a new, a very new idea that the thing that ultimately matters in your life is your ability of self-expression. So we, we now, we, we have this sort of form of what I think Christianity is a call out is just straight up idolatry of self. We say self-expression is the ultimate, um,
• 21:43
  is the ultimate achievement. We all assume in this culture that we're moving towards more and more radical self-expression. One of the things that that makes so difficult, and just to be honest about it, is when you make self-expression an idol, it makes it really difficult to prioritize long-term relationships because long-term relationships gives another person a vote
• 22:07
  and how you're experiencing or playing out or living out your version of self-expression. As soon as you have a, you know, a six month old baby, you know, and you're like, they get a vote. They're there. They have all these needs. And so, and so if you want to immediately go back into a mode of 60, 70, 80 hours a week of,
• 22:28
  of getting to explore self-expression in a completely individual way, that infant is going to suffer because of your decision to prioritize self-expression over everything else. And there's so many people that will say, well, that's fine. Let the infant suffer. Let the child suffer. Let the marriage suffer. Let all the relationships suffer because ultimately self-expression is the highest value. Who got to choose that? That is not biblical. It's never been biblical.
• 22:55
  Jesus said, I did not come to be served, but to serve and to give my life as a ransom for many. I mean, the gospel itself is a story of choosing to lay down your life for others. And the real pathway, the real challenge for the believer is what is going to help me in the pursuit of learning how to be the kind of person who joyfully lays down my life to serve others?
• 23:20
  And there is no greater pathway to that than fatherhood and motherhood historically for most people. So yeah, Jess, what does this turn up for you? Yeah, I just think of Proverbs 31 and how like there, when I think about my own like motherhood walk, I'm just like, there are so many things I have yet to learn and how that's going to bless my family. And so when, yeah, it seems so narrow, I just think of Proverbs 31, I'm like,
• 23:47
  But there's such a vision cast there of how to be a matriarch and what that looks like. And there are so many intellectual skills that I have yet to learn and figure out what even right now with little kids, like what is like my best invitation for blessing my family and what does that look like? And so it can look so many different ways depending on our season. But I think, yeah, I just go back to Proverbs 31. I'm just like, there's so much there that.
• 24:15
  could be unpacked in a lifetime of what the Lord's vision is for us. And just what a sweet invitation that is. That's so good. Yeah, that's great. Does anybody else want to pick up on Proverbs 31? Because I do think that chapter offers a pre-industrial revolution vision of motherhood that oftentimes shocks people who think that the Bible is teaching a 1950s housewife version of motherhood.
• 24:43
  Have you ever considered starting a family business so you can spend more time working as a family team? We've started a year-long coaching program called Family Inc. where you get weekly coaching with Jeremy, access to our video training for launching family businesses, and lots of ideas for businesses to start that are working for other family teams. Head over to familyteams.com and click Family Inc. to learn more or to set up a strategy call with Jeremy to see if this might be a good fit for you.
• 25:14
  So yeah, any thoughts that y'all have on how that, how might that impact what he's describing here as this sort of visionless situation that mothers are in? Well, I think that I agree with what Jess said, because I feel like 20 years ago or so, I...
• 25:33
  the Proverbs 31 woman was so intimidating to me to the point of like, almost really not liking her. I was like, ah, she, ah, I have to do that. She does this. Of course she gets up while it's still dark out. And of course she makes bed coverings for all her beds. And, you know, it just seemed like so overwhelming. And then, you know, getting to like,
• 25:57
  grow in my own talents and abilities and my own motherhood and understanding how to manage a household and how to, how to have help in the home. And, and all of these things have matured me and grown me to the point where I can read it now and be like, Oh,
• 26:12
  I did that one. I remember 20 years ago, it seemed so overwhelming, but I made a blanket for my bed. One of them. So just like the idea that this is like the long game, you know, and she is someone whose children rise up and call her blessed. So first of all, her children can stand.
• 26:32
  And then her children can speak. So they're probably not super little. So this is a woman who's maybe a little bit older. And then her husband sits at the gate. So that indicates that he's probably an elder. And so she's probably just an older woman and has gone through a good amount of life. And I have found anything that I can look at in there and be like, oh, I did that that one time or be encouraged to keep going. It's like, I had to learn something to get there. I had to work really hard.
• 27:00
  to be able to accomplish that task or to do that thing or to have that goal or to get up while it was still dark out, took a lot of self-control and like all that stuff. So I feel like there is a lot of vision there that can still grow us as the individual us as we are a part of a team. Yeah. And Lisa, you have your thoughts? Yeah, I think I agree. I think it's really important to look at that stuff, look at Proverbs 31, yeah.
• 27:30
  as a measurement almost, because when I read this tweet, I think, okay, so what is the measurement that's being used here? It's really like the, what looks like strength, what looks like perseverance and really it's cultural, right? So when you've hit your career, when you made it by yourself, when you can live in an apartment by yourself and not depend on anyone, you've made it and you're strong and you've persevered and you've overcame.
• 27:56
  But when you look at Proverbs 31, really the measurement is, do my kids stand up and call me blessed? And like you were saying, April, that's long-term, that's long-term vision casting. So that's really what, that's what our measurement is as moms and wife. Like that's what we're aiming for. So measurement isn't, and raising girls, like I don't want their measurement to be, okay, have you made it? Are you making enough money? Are you doing all of these things? No, no.
• 28:24
  Are you raising a family that will grow up, your children will grow up and call you blessed as well. And your husband is sitting at the gates and vision casting for his family too. I think that's, I think that's a kind of interesting perspective too. Yeah.
• 28:39
  And a couple of the statements made in Proverbs 31, things like she considers a field and buys it. So she's an investor. She's entrusted with the multi-generational assets of the family, and she's shrewdly investing them. Talks about how she basically manages a whole team of servants. And so you're really, this picture of...
• 29:02
  And this, this is the, this is sort of that pre-industrial revolution household. And this is, this is where I think things really broke down for women so dramatically. And that is that before the industrial revolution, the household was always an economic engine and the mother was always sort of in the center of that hub. And so the idea that she wouldn't have, you know, intellectual challenges in the home didn't make any sense. Of course, she was constantly challenged because she and her husband were a team trying to develop this economic engine.
• 29:31
  And, and this was all integrated with the way they're raising their kids and the way that they were caring for their, their parents and, you know, the way that they were thinking about their future grandchildren and the way they were expanding the families.
• 29:41
  land holdings and assets and everything like that. So this was a way that families lived for hundreds or thousands of years before suddenly there was this hyper specialization introduced to us because of the industrial revolution. That was such a dramatic shift. And this is why so many Christians are confused because Christians, we have all these stories and all this. And even when Paul says things like, you know, women should be busy at home,
• 30:07
  almost everyone thinks about from, I think it's in Titus two, the people's, the image people have of that is, you know, a mom with a couple of kids who are off at school and she's running around, you know, maybe vacuuming. It's like that, that was not like, nobody thought that when Paul wrote that in, in the first century.
• 30:25
  what they pictured was everyone was trying to be busy at home. The father was constantly trying to participate in various economic activities to expand the family, but the wife would be managing and also participating in that kind of economic expansion of the family. And so it's just because work shifted,
• 30:44
  the family got dramatically disrupted. And so trying to figure out what that means is what we've been really working through at Family Teams. But the reality is we live in a free country and anyone listening to this, you could all decide to develop the kind of family team
• 31:00
  that existed before the industrial revolution. It's actually easier now than almost any time in history. There was a period economically where this is really difficult, you know, in kind of the Dickinsonian era. It was like where it was just required enormous capital to own a business or to start anything because things were becoming so industrialized from that point until probably the 40s or 50s. But today, man, there's just thousands of opportunities for families to become households,
• 31:28
  and to have economic engines and to work together as a team. And it's just a decision you have to make. You have to decide if you want to go that direction or not. All right. Does this stir up anything else? Are you guys ready to move on to the second topic? Anybody else have anything that you want to say before we change topics?
• 31:44
  All right, I will, I'm going to play for you guys a video. So, man, this conversation I hear in various places about once a week. And that is, I just saw, for example, on Reddit, somebody had posted, I'm 30 years old. I've never had a child. I'm not in a relationship. Should I be worried? And so I went and looked at all the comments and it was just absolutely universal conversation.
• 32:07
  hundreds and hundreds of comments. I think it was thousands of comments and I couldn't find a single one that said that she should be worried. They all were like, Oh, you got plenty of time, you know? And so this is, there's something that's occurred that I think, uh, that, that we're not really being honest with women about. And so Brett Cooper, this is one way to frame it that she kind of points out. So I'm going to play this for you guys and get your thoughts on it.
• 32:29
  This poster wrote, I spoke to a 35-year-old unmarried female relatively recently. She is seeing someone in there considering marriage but says that she is taking it slow. I asked her if she wanted to have children. She said, yes, four. I told her she is too old for taking it slow if she wants four children. And at this age, she will be lucky to have a couple after an engagement, a wedding, and a honeymoon period has passed. Not to mention the time it actually takes to grow and birth a child. Also, not to mention the time that it takes to conceive a child because that is not easy for a lot of people. Back to the post.
• 32:54
  She was stunned. She gasped a little bit and said, wow, you don't mince words, huh? I told her, of course not. People aren't being honest with young women about their bodies and timelines. Has anyone ever told you that your prime childbearing years are over? Has anyone ever talked to you about how aging changes your fertility? She said, no, no one, not one person. And as stupid as it sounds, she hadn't thought about it until I mentioned it. She didn't realize that she didn't have all the time in the world. I don't know if it changed anything for her, but I do think it's a travesty that something so basic had never been presented to her before. We need to start being blunt with young women. They can make their own choices on their timelines, but it should be done with the most
• 33:23
  And guys, I feel like all of this just goes back to the fact that women have no idea how their bodies work. We have been lied to for decades at this point. Go on the pill 20, 30 years. It will have no impact on your fertility. Oh, you don't need to have children. You can have them later in life. It's totally fine. You can rely on IVF even though it doesn't work all the time and it is insanely, insanely expensive.
• 33:44
  you can just adopt. Even though that process is incredibly convoluted and heartbreaking, we have been lied to and we have not been given the proper information. But all of this is equipping women with information about their bodies and about the realities of the modern dating landscape so that they can make informed decisions, especially for young women.
• 34:00
  And I'm not saying go out and just marry the first guy you find because you're scared that you're gonna be undesirable. But I do mean don't brush it off and kick it years and years down the road because you've bought into this lie that being a girl boss corporate baddie will be the most fulfilling part of your life and that you can guarantee that you can be married and have kids later on in life. Because that is not a guarantee for anyone. I think this woman summed up this balance really well. She said, as someone who was getting married in two days,
• 34:23
  I no longer think that we on the right should push get married as soon as possible as a slogan. I agree. Decades of the sexual revolution and other negative cultural economic trend lines have produced too many mentally unstable and severely immature young people without the family, church, and community bonds necessary to get them on the right path and keep them there as a guardrail. What that means is that the dating pool of suitably matched partners is super slim, depressingly so. Yeah, so this is a...
• 34:46
  I'm curious what your guys' experiences of this. Like when you are talking to young women or as you were thinking about this as young women before you were married, how did you perceive this? In a world where we're obsessed with sex education, it seems like we're not talking about
• 35:03
  this conversation is only going one direction. It's you have plenty of time, don't worry, delay, delay, delay. And so there's this constant, and I'll throw this last statistic out there that, so there was a researcher, he made a documentary, I can't remember his name. It was an amazing documentary about the epidemic of what he called unplanned childlessness. And so he researched this in country after country. And what he discovered is that if you are 30 years old,
• 35:31
  as a young woman. So the woman that is in this post was 30 years old. And you are not in a relationship and you're unmarried and have no children. If you want to have children, if you're a 30-year-old who's always wanted to be a mother,
• 35:46
  you have less than 50% chance of ever being a mother. That's what he discovered. And he goes into all the research about how fertility peaks when you're about 16 or 17 years old. And because of that, it gets lower and lower. And so oftentimes if you think about a 30 year old, just looking for a mate,
• 36:02
  That might take two or three or four or five years to find somebody. Then when you're, when you find that person, the decision to when to start a family, you have to agree on. And let's say that takes a few more years and then you begin to try and you discover that you're so far past your fertility that it requires fertility treatments. So you go to the doctor and you spend a couple of years trying to work that out. And then you discover to your horror and in some cases.
• 36:25
  That absolutely will never happen. That you somehow passed a window. And now you are one of these statistics. You are now a part of the epidemic of unplanned childlessness. I don't know how this happened, but this is so predictable that people are not having this conversation. Like I said, I just was looking at this Reddit post maybe two days ago.
• 36:44
  where there wasn't a single person on that thread raising the alarm bell that maybe you might not be able to have a child if you keep waiting. So, yeah, I'm curious what this stirs up for you guys. Annalisa, maybe we can start with you and then we'll go around. I have lots of thoughts, but I'll try and keep it short. First, it stirs up that this is the conversation that was pushed forward.
• 37:07
  early in the twenties. Like you go to college, get a job, all of that can wait. You have time. Don't worry about it. But it also makes me think of, the inconsistencies with sexual ethic in Christian circles, because I think that a lot of that could be driven by fear. Like we don't want to talk to our women about this. We don't want to talk to young women about these really uncomfortable things. And so instead it's avoid, avoid, avoid, and they'll figure it out in there.
• 37:36
  late 20s when it's almost too late. And we have a lot of friends who are in that stage that it wasn't planned and it wasn't talked about. And that's heartbreaking. And it really is. It's so heartbreaking because which I think also to be said makes adoption beautiful and it becomes a beautiful part of of that.
• 37:58
  But it is heartbreaking to hear that these conversations aren't being had. The science behind it isn't being talked about in Christian circles because it's definitely needed. Yeah, absolutely. Holly, what are your thoughts?
• 38:11
  walking with couples right now who are going through this. And I think some of it is that it's the whole idea too, that the family is so misunderstood of what it is, right? You hear people say all the time, well, we're gonna go do and live life and when we're ready to settle down, we'll have our family. So it's even just a false idea.
• 38:30
  of what living life is and then slowing down and having a family. And I think it's, it's, it is, it is a tragedy because watching these women cry at our table and not understanding that,
• 38:46
  that no one has ever talked to this and now they're sitting at our table and it almost just feels too late, right? And it's that whole idea, like they said, of just, I wanna go and I wanna make all my money and I wanna be that CEO and then I'll be ready to kind of pull back. No one's ever, that never works. Even if people do do that, we work with those couples too because then they're struggling with,
• 39:08
  Oh, this wasn't exactly what I thought. So I think it's a reframe. I think it's a very important conversation to have very early on what this means for you. And this is why we talk to couples, especially when we get younger couples right away of that family vision. How many children are you like wanting to have thinking to have and then getting going on that vision because the world just says keep waiting and time is ticking. So yeah.
• 39:36
  Yes. Yeah. It's not being real, honestly discussed. Jess, what are your thoughts? Oh man. Kind of like Annalisa. I have so many thoughts. I kind of just brought me back to my own personal story of the,
• 39:51
  We first got married and we like waited four years, but that wasn't intentional. That was because I did athletics and I like depleted my body so much that a doctor was like, it's like, you need to like kind of repair yourself first before you try to have kids. So we did that. Finally, we were able to try, got pregnant with our first daughter.
• 40:13
  He'll be sixth this fall. But in the meantime, I'm pregnant with our fourth, but I've had three miscarriages in that almost six year time span. And so with that all being said, as a kid, like wanting to have a family and wanting to have kids, I never imagined like the roller coaster of, oh, I might not be able to like,
• 40:34
  try when we wanted to, I might have to wait and, oh, I wish I went to like put so much of my identity and like worth in athletics, because that's not actually where I wanted. That's not actually what I wanted to do forever. Anyway, I wanted to be a mom. And then just the whole like.
• 40:51
  having to surrender to the Lord, like, Lord, I didn't plan on losing three babies, but like, thank you for like the lessons and like what you're teaching me through that. But I wish that someone would have said, like, there's no guarantee that just because you do all the right things, that that's going to equal the number of children you want to
• 41:09
  And so definitely makes me want to talk with my own daughter, just more like on just, yeah, the timeline of it and that it isn't a guarantee and it is truly a gift to, yeah, be able to have children. Like what you hear? Be sure to leave a rating and review for this podcast wherever you use streaming.
• 41:35
  Man, absolutely. Yeah. Each of these stories are so personal, but then you can see the patterns and the challenges that we're trying to work through because there's been such a, there's so much pressure, so much value put on trying to live a certain kind of lifestyle in your 20s and to maximize that. And I think in order to get women to buy into that, the conversation around fertility had to be silenced or muted somehow. April, what does this start for you?
• 42:05
  Well, I think this is another way that technology has kind of like intervened with God's design from the, well, the idea of birth control. I'm sure they had really creative ways of
• 42:19
  dealing with that back in the olden days, but like having, it's given us this belief that we have a choice and we have a, we can plan and we can try and we can decide and we can start. And we can, you know, it just puts us in the, the driver's seat a lot. And I know, and that's a very big topic to go down that, like the whole birth control thing, but just giant step back,
• 42:44
  What is, what is the purpose of marriage when, when you decide to get married? Are you, are you saying like, now I'm going to start a family or are you saying kind of what Holly was saying? It's like, now we're going to get married and we're going to live life. And we're going to have these, check these things off our list. And then we'll decide to slow down and start having kids. Like what is.
• 43:07
  Like, what is the definition of family? When does that start? Like, when is the conception of a family happen? Is it at the wedding? Or is it when you have your first kid? Or, you know, so I think just needing to kind of redefine, even in the Christian world, this is so confusing. This is not clear at all. Yeah.
• 43:29
  Even when I was, you know, like in college or in high school youth group, like things like that in the very, very Christian world. I went to a Christian high school and like great church with a great youth group. That was very much the message was go to college, get a job, get a career. And even my parents and like our parents' generation were.
• 43:51
  kind of like the pill was new. So it was like, get on the pill for five years because you live life and then you have kids. And just that whole mentality is, is, has really taken over even in the Christian world.
• 44:04
  Yeah, we don't really realize how much that carries with it an assumption about the family that it's essentially a negative thing. Like I remember when we first, we decided like, you know, after six months of, we were planning on being on birth control for, you know, a number of years. And then we decided to come off of it and six months and got pregnant pretty quickly. I remember April, we were at, I remember we were at your church back in Columbus and you were, I think, newly pregnant. And there was a woman that,
• 44:32
  You really was a big part of your life growing up. You know, she's an older woman now. And so you announced to her like, I'm pregnant. And it was like the most authentic reaction I've ever seen. She's like, oh, no.
• 44:46
  And we're married. We're like, you know, we're ready, but it's kind of early, you know? It's our first year of marriage, but it's, you know, and this is- I had a smile on my face and I was just here. Like I was clearly excited. Yeah. But again, it was an authentic reaction. I appreciate the authenticity. It wasn't, I don't think she thought about it, but it did betray the basic beliefs. So like another thing that to me culturally has betrayed this is the idea of a baby moon, right? And so, you know, like-
• 45:13
  You're getting pregnant for the first time. Like, oh, before we get pregnant, we got to go and have our last taste of freedom. And this is why I'm saying, it's really important to think about, you know, what is a family? Like you said, April, like, have you ever heard of a team that's like worked really, really hard to get to the championship? And then the championship's a few weeks away. They're like, you know what? Oh.
• 45:33
  We're about to get the championship. We need a break. We need to experience freedom before we compete in this thing that we've been looking forward to and been working towards. No, of course you don't do that. You take a big break and that's the framing of when you're about to do something that is fairly miserable. That's going to make your life kind of more negative. Then you're like, okay, I've got to get the last bit of enjoyment out of this season because what's coming is...
• 45:57
  is going to be worse. Like, I can't imagine another way to frame that. That just sounds like that to me. And so as soon as you promote that, I think you are promoting this idea that there's something inherently restrictive as opposed to it's the actual reason why we are getting married and starting families is we cannot wait to have children. Like the difference, I remember when we were talking about when our first grandson was born, when Kelsey and Matt had Elijah
• 46:24
  I mean, there was the level, the level of explosive joy at our Shabbat table. When that baby came in, it was like the app, like nobody, like everyone wanted to be, it's just so exciting. And I think this is the way that children, you know, there's these old movies. Sometimes I watched them or there was a great movie about modern Israeli family where they've been wanting to have a child for so long. And the, the,
• 46:50
  Sort of the climax of the whole movie is this father dancing around with his infant son just over his head. And all of his friends are there like clapping and singing and crying and just cannot believe how what a beautiful miracle this is. Like that. That's the way children used to be perceived and celebrated into the world. And now we go off on baby moons to to bemoan the the the lifestyle hit that we're about to take.
• 47:16
  And then we bring children into a world in which they are considered somehow like the ball and chain. They're going to drag our lifestyle down, right? So this is such a different way of viewing children and family. Yeah, Annalisa? The baby moon, and it gets me thinking of how.
• 47:37
  It's very compartmentalized, like it's do this and then you can do this. And which is expected. You're expect to do it this first, do then do family second. When, and I think about the conversations we have with our girls as they get older. And it's, it's more whole picture as we like big picture and try to give them like the wholeness of it. Like, Hey, if this is what you want to do.
• 48:02
  we also want to consider family, right? Because if you both want a family and to do this, how can we help lead you in the direction of meshing those two together immediately and not one after the other? And I think, and it always blows my mind because the first question that we ask kids is,
• 48:21
  What do you want to be when you grow up? Or what do you want to do when you grow up? And we expect, you know, these career answers and these, and then it throws us off when a little girl or a little boy says a mother, a father. But I think it can be a whole picture. You can want to be a mother and also want to be a vet or do these things and then work with your family and get guidance from your father and your mother on how that can happen together at a very young age. Yeah.
• 48:50
  The word that we're constantly trying to explore is integration. Like if you, if you are, if you're really thoughtful about how to integrate things that you feel called to, and you see them as more family missions, or, you know, these are, these are things our family does. So like our family, I love to travel.
• 49:11
  And so instead of going on a baby moon, you know, we, we, as a family got really into our being and just integrated our kids into that, you know, that we're constantly trying to figure out how do we live a lifestyle consistent with all the things that God's placed inside of us, but do it as an integrated way as a family. And that can be really hard that can carry with the challenges, but that's the, that's why there's a father and a mother. Like, that's why ultimately you want to have an extended family as well to like, how do we work together? And this is what I'm so excited for our kids is they're, you know, our son and daughter
• 49:41
  pregnant. And, you know, and so there's this conversation that we're having is how do we like help, help you as you're having kids early and often, like live into all the things that God's called you to do in an integrated way. And that may require resources and support from our generation. And we're super excited to do it because this is all integrated part of our mission to multiply. You don't, you don't, you don't multiply unless you start having grandchildren. And so we don't see those kids as a part of their family. We see it
• 50:10
  as just an integrated part of our family. They're a branch of our larger family, as we are a branch of our parents' families. So part of this is just the radical disconnection that occurs when you think about family in these nuclear tiny instances, as opposed to multi-generationally. Then I think you do start to lose the ability, potentially, to experience a lot of those things with your children. Yeah, any other last things that this is stirring up for you guys before we go?
• 50:35
  I think that's a really good point. Cause I think again, it just shows how backwards we have it. If people think they get to grandparenthood and they're like, hands off, I'm just going to let you, I get to do the fun part. Right. That's what you hear. I'll do the fun part and you do that hard part. And.
• 50:52
  it couldn't be like further than the truth, right? Like y'all are gearing up to be the busiest you've probably ever been because you're going to be investing in those lives. And so that's what excites me is finding those that are like, Hey, this is the movement. This is what we're creating and building and the work is just getting started. And so I appreciate the conversation because more families need to function that way instead of the older they get, the more independent we're taking our hands off and not being a part of. So yeah.
• 51:22
  Excellent. Well, thank you guys all for taking the time to be on this today and talk about some pretty challenging topics for our culture and for even our Christian world. So thank you guys so much. And we'll do it again soon. See you guys later. Bye.
• 51:40
  Thank you for listening to the Family Teams podcast. If you're enjoying this content or have learned something new, please make sure to leave a rating and review and share with a friend. To stay up to date with our events, new content, and products, you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Family Teams.