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Lisa Unger: Served Him Right · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person, you'll become like me, fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them, not only as incredible storytellers, Lisa Unger: Thank and ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. So I'm super excited because my guest today is Lisa Unger and a brief introduction to her. And it's hard because as I said earlier, Lisa is incredibly accomplished. She's a New York Times bestselling author who has received global critical acclaim, topped bestseller lists, won literary awards, earned countless lifelong fans, Lisa Unger: I'm Jennifer Jumba: who turn up in droves for every book she releases, myself included. Her 23rd novel, Served Him Right, just published on Tuesday. So congratulations. books published in 33 languages and millions of copies sold worldwide, she is regarded as the master of suspense. Unger's acclaimed novels have been featured on best book lists from The Today Show, Good Morning America, Entertainment Weekly, People, Amazon, Goodreads, Lisa Unger: Thank you. Thank Jennifer Jumba: LA Times, the Boston Globe, Tampa Bay Times, and many, many others. She has been nominated for or won numerous awards, including the Strand Critics, Audie, Hammett McHavity, ITW Thriller, and Goodreads Choice. In 2019, she received two Edgar Award nominations in the same year. This honor was only held by a few authors like Agatha Christie. Lisa Unger: Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: Her short fiction has been anthologized in the best American mystery and suspense, and her nonfiction has appeared in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Daily Telegraph, NPR, Travel and Leisure. her readers know, Lisa's books feature emotionally complex heroines who were driven to uncover the truth. And her books have been described as psychological suspense with an unfolding mystery at the same time. Lisa Unger: Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: She presents us with relevant themes which propel us to discuss them with others and or our book clubs. have been a fan of Lisa's books for incredibly long time and I'm also a fan of Lisa as a human being. And I the conversations I've had with her, her thoughtful insight into the world and topics that ripple long after we stopped talking. And it's hard for me not to want to talk to her more often. Lisa is the current Lisa Unger: Thank you. and to the different folks. Jennifer Jumba: Co-President of the International Thriller Writers Organization. She lives on the West Coast of Florida with her family. And I am beyond thrilled to have Lisa joining me today. I have no doubt you all will enjoy her thoughts about her storytelling craft and want to read this latest book, Served Him Right. And if this is new to you, you'll read her entire backlist. So thank you for joining me today. Lisa Unger: Thank you for having me, Jen. I'm excited to be here. Jennifer Jumba: is so great. Can you just kind of give us a brief introduction to serve him right? Lisa Unger: Yeah, so when you open the cover of Served Him Right, you're going to meet two sisters, Anna. And Vera is throwing a brunch for sister Anna, who has just had a breakup. And it's an ordinary brunch. It's an exorcism. And by exorcism, mean and Vera have gathered close friends together to basically exorcise Anna's ⁓ boyfriend Paul from all of their media feeds. ⁓ ⁓ delete, And and they're this brunch when there's a knock at the door and it's the police and Anna's ex-boyfriend has been murdered. ⁓ the prime suspect because she has a very dangerous dark history with men. So is up to Vera and Anna to find out who might have been in killing Paul. Whether it's or not remains to be seen, ⁓ but they're needing to this mystery before the police do and before they run afoul. of a group of very powerful women herbalists who run an organization called The Co. And that is the setup for Served Him Right. Jennifer Jumba: And this, I have to be honest, was the first time I had heard of the exorcism, where you take somebody. So I thought, wow, how great is that? Because I think some of us who have had relationships and no longer have them, constantly go back and look at our phone and are like, aww. ⁓ Lisa Unger: Yeah. That's a problem. It's a real problem. mean, you have this thread, right? If you have a relationship you're your life online the way so many people are, then ⁓ your are connected to you through social media and your friends are at the moments and events that you've shared and are like, ⁓ I'm going to follow your boyfriend and I'm going to tag him in this and blah, blah, blah. And it's like this really, really interesting web that is fine. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Lisa Unger: until you don't want to be with that person anymore and then there you you can't you almost can't in the digital sphere you can't away from that person so an exorcism of this type a media exorcism of this type makes you ⁓ perfect sense Jennifer Jumba: Right. Absolutely, and I think a few of your books you have touched on social media and how that influences people's behavior, people's choices. I found this equally fascinating. Lisa Unger: Yeah. Right. Yeah, was definitely interesting. I can't take credit for it. I know I read about it somewhere, this idea of an exorcism, it kind of stayed with me. I never read about it again, but it makes like, you know, it makes great sense to me that you would just like say, ⁓ this is like this is the moment where you have to make a choice. Are you his friend or are you my friend in social ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: And how many things, I mean, that's the thing, being a right, with the metadata on social media is that you can access it from so many different ways. I mean, it is, it is not like the old days where you would take all those photos and cards and love letters and put them in a fire pit and burn them and it's done. Yeah. Like there's always like one straggler somewhere or multiple stragglers. ⁓ Right. Lisa Unger: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, you can't. It's the stuff, the physical stuff. Yes. That's right. Yeah, it's funny because a lot of this too is like, you know, my daughter recently broke up with her boyfriend and it was like, you know, and was a past breakup as well. And the social media component to breakup was always like, you know, one of the biggest features of the breakup, like Oh my God, I'm blocking him or oh my God, he unfollowed me or oh my God, could and it's like all these different, you know, even like on some of the like Venmo or whatever, people follow each other and like they know, like you went out with this person and you split a bill here. And it's like, what? I mean, the threads that keep you connected to people that you're trying to get away from are really fascinating. Jennifer Jumba: I would think it's exhausting to think of all the different ways in which we're connected digitally. Lisa Unger: It is, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Jennifer Jumba: So books are always fabulous. ⁓ thing that I, you're quite welcome. The thing that I enjoyed the most about this is like the juxtaposition between this digital technical world we live in, right? And the cove, can you talk a little bit about the herbalists and the cove for those listening? Lisa Unger: Thank you. Yes. Yeah, so basically every book kind of starts with an obsession that I have. And so my recent obsession has been and our very complicated, really the very complicated relationship that we have as humans to nature. And, know, idea that in for many sort of, ⁓ you know, things, plants, that the only difference between and poison is the dose. So that could very well be medicine, made into medicine, in a different dose might kill you. And so I found that really And I also found it interesting that the practitioners of ⁓ type of are always women. And it's this sort of that interested me is that the woman is to kind of the nurturer ⁓ in the or in the world. And she comes she has her place in the kitchen, she has her place in the garden, and the things that she does there can nourish a family. I came, ⁓ I kind of shipped across a new story. think it's, I think this is actually in the acknowledgements about a family that sat down to dinner and ⁓ of people got up from the table and they passed away because of what was served at that table. And was it Was it an accidental poisoning? Was it, you know, there's a possibility there's, Always a possibility that whatever you eat is going is going to kill you, right? There's always that possibility, right? So it was just these kind of combinations of these of these things like my obsession with plants this new story that I kind of tripped over then this idea of female power right like the ability to nurture to bring life and then in this case the ability sometimes to create harm or cause damage ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Great. Lisa Unger: And so that's where the idea of the Cove sprung So it's basically an organization of women and they're herbalists and they have various different, and it runs the gamut, right? ⁓ know, there are some people that are making love potions and some people that are, ⁓ know, I have an herbal tea that's gonna cure your tummy ache. And then there are people who have like a slightly darker ⁓ of cures that they might offer, but you have to know how to ask for it. ⁓ And so that kind of idea of the cove sprung from these other obsessions that I had. But I think at its heart, you know, it's about female power and how it is wielded and how it is hidden and how it is thwarted or how people try to thwart it. Jennifer Jumba: it's not I mean, she's referred to as mother nature, right? So it's probably where we get this, you know, nurturing, at the same time as we've just experienced with this Arctic storm and bomb cyclone and ice whatever else, I mean, she's not to be messed with, right? ⁓ So. Lisa Unger: That's right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, it's a very much so a dichotomy and that's why I think people have such a complicated relationship with nature. And there's a deep distrust of nature, know, and it kind of threads through, you know, mythology and folklore and fairy tales and all that. There's this deep thread of mistrust. Like nature is, we're intimately connected. One of us, you know, well, she can survive without us. We can't survive without her. Her wellness is to how we survive as humans, although people don't really seem to understand that, which is kind odd. But we either by her ⁓ or we are danger from her. And these are very real truths about our relationship nature. you are subjected to the elements, you will not survive. Like, there is no contest. There is no nature, man versus nature. In the real world, wins ⁓ time. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think about secluded cabin sleep six. mean, nature had a huge role in that catastrophic swarm. think close your eyes and count to 10 and nature had a role in that. So there's been this, this undercurrent, but I agree. think there's an incredible amount of tension that exists between something that brings us such beautiful sunsets and and oceans. then at the same time, Lisa Unger: Yes. Right. Right. Yes. Jennifer Jumba: can take those and just mess with them. ⁓ Lisa Unger: Right. Right. And it's like, you know, we, you know, we till her swale and we grow our food and, you know, people hunt and, you know, it's, you know, in a, in a balanced system, you know, it all works. It's just that it's not balanced at the moment. Jennifer Jumba: No, is not. You chose to read this book from alternating perspectives. And then with that, you wove Aunt Agnes' teachings through. you talk a little bit about that? Lisa Unger: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love a, for me, I love to tell a story from multiple perspectives. You for me, it's kind of like a mosaic. You everybody has their little piece and then at the end, hopefully it's a whole picture. I also, know, plenty of times write, you know, first person, present tense, you know, one character at the forefront. And I also love that because there's a kind of an intimacy to that. But, you know, in this case, was just a, it was a big story and had a lot. Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Lisa Unger: of different pieces. Agnes is sort of the that runs through the entire story, even though she's gone before the book even But she still has this powerful legacy that she's left behind her and she takes in Vera and Anna the worst of their lives. ⁓ And she's not really the mothering type. She's not like, oh girls, let me comfort you. She's like, oh girls, let me teach you about the world and teach you how to survive in it, because it isn't easy. And so that's kind of her role in their lives. there's tension, but there's admiration. There's a kind of love. There's resentment. There's anger. Agnes makes him really questionable choices that impact the girls significantly, but so do they So ⁓ it's ⁓ very relationship between the three women. ⁓ then of there's Coraline, who is Vera's daughter and who very much her mother's daughter, but also has her own thing going There's a very different, know, everybody's really different. know, Vera is very different from Anna. Anna was definitely one the most surprising characters that has come along for me. I found very, a little bit and very funny. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ her attitude and Jennifer Jumba: Yes, yeah there were some laugh out loud moments you know with her describing things for sure. Lisa Unger: ideas about things and then also her relationship to Vera. had a lot of fun with that. That was very, how they relate to each other. And then Timothy too has a really interesting, I thought he had a really interesting role to play. Jennifer Jumba: When you talk about their roles, mean, Vera describes Anna kind of as ⁓ in book as a Matryoshka doll that she, ⁓ and think it's true for probably a lot of us, right? There's different layers to all of us and we choose what we let people see. ⁓ And so that's always fascinating to me when you're reading, even though I know that I'm a human being and I use certain words at work that I, ⁓ Lisa Unger: Yeah. Right. Yes. Sure. Jennifer Jumba: or certain words at home, I should say, that I don't move at work. We'll say that, right? There's a certain edge to me outside of a work environment. But at the same time, we know that, but yet I'm reading this, ⁓ then it just starts to make me second guess, like every time I'm talking to somebody, is this just what they want me to see? And then it's complicated on social media because that's such a curated, it's not ⁓ at all Lisa Unger: Exactly. ⁓ yeah. I mean social media as I see it, and this is not a popular opinion, but social media as I see it is all lies. I mean it's nothing but lies. If you've taken the time to frame and filter and curate a post that you've put out there, it's not real. What's real is what happened five minutes before and five minutes after. That's how I view it. And you can find, and I have in social media, tried to find an authenticity, a certain thread of authenticity through the things that I post. there's nothing really on social media that you could 100 % say is true. Like this is an authentic representation ⁓ this person. By very nature, it's curated. But that doesn't mean it's not, that doesn't, even though a lie, that doesn't mean that on some level it's not real. And that even like the person that you are at work, That's you, that's you at work. The person that you are at home, that's you, it's you at home. have different relationships, different in those environments extract different of your personality. ⁓ Even in a family system, like two children up in the same home and they may have different versions of what their childhood was. That doesn't mean that Jennifer Jumba: Right. Lisa Unger: That doesn't mean that one of them is wrong and one of them is right. It's just that these energies and create a different reality. Jennifer Jumba: And I think that speaks to Vera and Anna growing up, with Agnes says they're, now guardian, taking care of them and how same same house, same circumstances, but one ends up different. Like Anna is almost a of like this wild soul. And then you Vera who's like married. She's got two kids. She's got the house. ⁓ I think in the book. Lisa Unger: Absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. Right. Jennifer Jumba: Anna refers to Vera's husband that a marriage, but it's more of a partnership, you know, kind of devoid of the emotional attachment. So. Lisa Unger: Right, right, yeah. Yeah, mean she definitely definitely Vera is the straight laced one on the the surface like talking about like, you know, the, you know, the doll and all her layers the surface. She's the one who is, Anna her, you know, Mrs. Perfect life, even though it's like far from it. And she knows that it's just her like way of needling her sister and then Jennifer Jumba: on. Mm-hmm. ⁓ which siblings do so well? Lisa Unger: Yeah, yeah, she's quite good at it. then and then Anna is just like kind of, you know, she she's wild. She has a has a has a temper. She is, you know, she's a little bit, you know, she's a little bit self involved, you know, and she's like very good at making excuses for herself. But she's, you know, she she's fiercely, you know, fiercely loyal. to her sister and even to Coraline, her niece, who she cops to resenting Vera's children because they kind of unseeded her as the center of Vera's life, taking care of her so she has affection for them. She has the ability to love, even though you might wonder sometimes about her. And Vera has a wild, dark center. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Lisa Unger: She's literally capable of anything. We come to find out and I don't think by looking at her you would see that. She seems very buttoned up and very proper. Jennifer Jumba: Right. So you talked a little bit earlier about this being about female and power and how perceived, how we step into it. And I think you have, Aunt Agnes, one generation, have Vera Anna, right, who are adults, kind of not quite midlife, but, they're grown up enough. Lisa Unger: Hmm. bright, sort of young midlife, sort of, you know, are younger of course. mean, ⁓ younger, of course, but both of them, you know, adults in their lives. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And then you have Coraline who, as we know, teen girls, teens in general, trying to figure out who they are, where they fit, what their role is, and do they have power and agency? And, you know, at what point do they step into it? at what point don't they? And is it resented because, you're a strong female? Lisa Unger: Yeah. Yes. ⁓ Yes. Yeah. Coraline's interesting because yeah, she's very much at that place in her life where she's like, do I fit into this family? And I think that that's the time, that's sort of the moment, not even where do I fit into the family, but like that, that, you know, that high school age, it's like, you know, initially it's like, who am I? You who am I in relation to my parent? Then who am I in this family? How do I relate to this family at large? Then it's like this moment where like, who am ⁓ I? in the world, right? And how can I be that if my parents still see me as their child? Like how do I move out into the world? And she's, you know, she's like kind of at loggerheads with her mother. And, you know, Anna is teaching her things that maybe Vera doesn't want her to know. Exactly, right? Jennifer Jumba: That's the Anthony's job, you know? Lisa Unger: She's basically saying you can't keep her from this any more than, you know, any more than we could force it on you. You know, like it's your, her legacy. It's the knowledge, knowledge of, of plants and, and, and, he, the healing force of those plants and the harming nature of some of them and all of that. Like, so there's like a knowledge that they share as a family ⁓ it's, it's it's like, know, you know, a hurricane, like a storm between the of them, like who and who's gonna, who's the survivor? ⁓ Hopefully of them, but you know, like there's definitely gonna be some casualties. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Speaking about ⁓ nature plants, ⁓ fascinated the things that I learned in this book. I think one of my favorite lines is what said earlier, that the only difference between medicine and poison is the dose. ⁓ And thinking a lot of it has indigenous roots. ⁓ But it me think, who said, you know what, you have a stomach ache, this looks pretty, let's grind this up a little, we'll add some hot water to it, it'll be a tea. ⁓ You go Lisa Unger: Yeah. Yeah, yes. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, you go first. Exactly. I mean, I think a lot and I do think a lot of it is that like just kind of trial and error. Although of course, you know, like in indigenous cultures, you know, there's this like sort of this tradition of the shaman, you know, and there and in many indigenous cultures, you know, there's an there's a belief that, know, the plant, you know, that the plants talk to us there has to be some kind of DNA coding, right? Like if you if you you we are so divorced from nature now. Jennifer Jumba: to figure out what that dose is. Mm-hmm. Correct. Lisa Unger: that we can't imagine it, right? Like we can't imagine that type of coding that keeps us connected to nature so that we might somehow have an instinct for, okay, I'm gonna chew on this mint leaf. And of course, nature communicates to us in all sorts of ways through color, through taste, through, this plant is covered with thorns, maybe not. the best thing to try to eat. This plant has a scent that suits, maybe it's healthy or whatever. there's this connection that indigenous cultures and the Shaman tradition would have that we no longer have. And that basically 90 % of medicine has its roots, of course, in nature. and in indigenous culture. things that, know, some medicines, you know, are like, you know, like matrician, like, which is like from the daisy, like it's a pesticide in some cases, it's a medicine in other cases, know, it's, or digitalis, you know, could be heart medication, might be poison, you know, there's, these are all like sort of, you know, things maybe, you know, we've taken it as a modern culture. ⁓ from its roots, like literally, and then synthesized and refined it and chemicalized it. And some cases that has been miraculous, but it still has its roots in nature. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And I just wonder how we got to the point where we've become so distracted and detached it. I can remember it wasn't, mean, I'm old, but not that old, but you growing up, ⁓ know, scouting, and how to do certain skill sets, you know, my dad's an Eagle Scout. learning, if you kind of got dropped somewhere, would you be able to survive, you know? Lisa Unger: Yes. Yeah. Which you'd able to survive. Yeah. I mean, I think that probably in different parts of the country, people are more connected to nature than others. know, and I think that, you know, we, we, we allowed ourselves to get very head down over our devices. And I think that, you know, in some cases, like, you know, there, there's many books that I you know, while I was, while I was researching this, and one of them was like ⁓ the light eaters. ⁓ I think, did we talk about this at one point, you and I? Her name is Zoe Schlanger. She was a, yeah, so she was, I think the story is that she was, well, she's a journalist and then she decided that she wanted to, she wanted to sort of like take a deep dive into nature. So she wrote this amazing book that will change the way you think about plants, nature, our relationship to it. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Lisa Unger: all of it, she just got really deep into all of these things. And one of the things that she said in the book was that when people look at nature, when they look at it like a forest, they tend to see just a green blob. Like, oh, nature, that big green thing out there. That thing with even in a grouping of trees, every tree is different. Jennifer Jumba: Those trees things, yeah. Lisa Unger: there's ⁓ Merlin Sheldrake's book, Entangled Life, where actually talking about something that is a relatively new discovery is that there's this mycelial network that connects trees hundreds of miles. Like it's an actual network of communication. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Lisa Unger: And so these are the things that you maybe don't hear about them, but once you learn it, you can't unlearn it. You can't stop thinking. You can't just think of nature as one kind of green blob in this idea that we have dominion over the Earth. It doesn't mean that we rule the Earth or that we own the Earth. It means that we are stewards of the Earth. And that it's our responsibility to our primal connection and to maintain the health of the planet. And that's like sort of at the core of, you know, my obsession with plants, nature's, cetera. Jennifer Jumba: think that's a terrific statement. think people reading this book, think perhaps will look at things a little bit differently. And that's a great thing. Your books are so layered. I mean, I always feel bad when you have to give your elevator pitch for your latest book. Because I was like, how can you do that in 60 seconds? It's just not possible. And as you start reading, I think you read, there's the thriller and the mystery, right? Lisa Unger: Yeah. I know, ⁓ it's, you can't. Right. Jennifer Jumba: But at the same time, there's the stuff that haunts you long after you turn the page about our relationship to nature, our relationship to the earth. think Richard Powers Overstory is another great book in terms of how we see things and interact. And maybe I extrapolate a little bit too far, but I that's kind of like the world. We have to figure out how to compliment one another and steward one another. mean, nature, human beings, together. Lisa Unger: Mm. Yeah. Yes. Right, it's all connected. I mean, it's such a cliche to say that. it's only when you really start to understand that we know, no, no, like really, we're really all just one thing, you know, and how we treat ourselves and how we treat nature and how we treat each other. Like it is really, it's really important, you know, like you can really for good. just in your own energy field. You can put stuff out there that is, that heals rather than harms, if you're intentional about it. Jennifer Jumba: agreed that. And think that's what life kind of boils down to is, there are things that are done, but I think sometimes you have to look at the intention behind those things to truly understand. ⁓ There's a passage in your book where you talk about our relationship to the natural world, to plants and trees, to the whole big spinning orb is complicated. It's a twist, a dance, a struggle. Nature nourishes us. ⁓ Lisa Unger: Yes. Yes. Jennifer Jumba: an endlessly giving mother, but unsheltered exposure to her whims and moods can end your life. This so well captures what we've been talking about that nothing is easy, right? A lot of things are complicated. Lisa Unger: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No. Everything's complicated. mean, everything is complicated. When you think about like, you know, there was another book that I read that I feel like I need to go back to because I feel like I read it too fast and need to go back to it. It's called the most, where is it? The most delicious poison, the story of nature's toxins from spices to vices, which is great because it's sitting right next to me. So that's how I know all this. Jennifer Jumba: I going to say that is a tremendous recall. Lisa Unger: It's an amazing recall on my part. author is Noah Whiteman and he explores plants in their through lens of addiction. His father was an addict struggled all his life with addiction eventually died. His exploration is about plants and how our relationship to them in terms of addiction. One of the things that he says in the book is that the most dangerous plant on earth is tobacco. It kills more people than any other plant. And we never think of it as a plant. We never think of it, we don't. Jennifer Jumba: Great. No, we don't. I I went to undergrad in Virginia, so tobacco farms were everywhere. And you don't think of it as a plant. Lisa Unger: Yeah, and we don't think of it as a plant and most dangerous plant on planet. The most deadly plant that exists. Yeah, and that really, that was really like, whoa. mean, so some of the stuff that I've been reading is like, I mean, you know, it changed it. If you really start digging in deep to some of the stuff, changes how you think about pretty much, pretty much everything. Jennifer Jumba: And that's one of the reasons there are many, but one of the reasons why I love reading your books is, you know, have incredible characters, tend to have strong female characters, which I love. You tend to layer multiple things and nuances to capture the complexity of what it's like to be a human being, you in today's world. and at the same time, there's these big questions that you ask, and they're not just questions that you ask, but you see it play out in Lisa Unger: Yes. Jennifer Jumba: in characters' lives and people's lives, so it becomes more real and not so esoteric, for lack of a better word. Lisa Unger: Yeah, I mean it is. I mean, I think that, you for me it's all about character. Like character is where it begins and ends. It all starts with a character voice. you know, plot is almost incidental to what is happening to my characters, you know, which is like true of life, right? I mean, like you don't have an overarching plot of your life. It's like how you act, but it's like, it's like, it's how you act upon your life. Like character is where it begins and ends. It all starts with a character voice. you know, plot is almost incidental to what is happening to my characters, you know, which is like true of life, right? I mean, like you don't have an overarching plot of your life. It's like how you act, it's how you act upon your life. Jennifer Jumba: I did it once I did it once severely off the rails, ⁓ Lisa Unger: that determines the plot, right? And so that's kind of how I feel about my characters. so, and then just curiosity that I have about human nature in general, you about what makes people who they are, what makes people act the they act, you know, what turns somebody into a hero, what turns somebody into a killer, what turns some, like what are the drivers? that determines the plot, right? And so that's kind of how I feel about my characters. so, and then just curiosity that I have about human nature in general, you about what makes people who they are, what makes people act the they act, you know, what turns somebody into a hero, what turns somebody into a killer, what turns some, like what are the drivers? And they're often incredibly complicated. And they're often incredibly complicated. then when you're talking about, I mean, they're always incredibly complicated. And then when you're talking about crime fiction, you know, it's like when you really dive into the heart of like criminal behavior, you know, whatever that happens to be, ⁓ almost always find unhealed trauma at the root of that, of that behavior. You there's like this idea in fiction, there's like this like, the big stakes, you know, and it's like, There's an eminent threat to the world and a supervillain and then the hero guy and he saves the day and it's all very clear cut in that type of fiction. Nothing wrong with that. that's not life. There aren't that many criminal masterbinds out there to be truthful. There's a lot of people who are just broken. and acting out of pain and doing horrible things because they don't because nobody ever taught them how to do anything better, which is not to excuse it. just to say, ⁓ let's take it. Let's really take a look at what makes people what puts people in so much pain that they that they act in these criminal ways. So like in my fiction, crime fiction or thriller psychological sense, mystery, whatever we're calling it today, it's like, you know, that that's drives it all for me is like makes people who they are. Jennifer Jumba: I that. Yes. And Agnes says in this book that, it's true that none of us are just one thing, that few people are all bad. And I remember a conversation with you not that long ago and you said, Jen, basically, people's actions boil down to two things. Love and fear. And so I have thought about that since. so when I was like, you have like a Lisa Unger: Mm, that's Mm-hmm, or fear. That's right. Jennifer Jumba: whatever, a litmus test, have like the Unger test, you know? Like, why would somebody do this? I'm like, no, is it love? Is it fear? Can I try to understand it? And yes, it is incredibly complicated and complex, but when you distill it down... Lisa Unger: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, when people are afraid, you know, they're angry, ⁓ violent, they're confused, they're, they're sad, they're, lie, they're, you know, they're capable of almost anything when, when a, when a creature, when an animal is in a state of fear, it's capable of almost anything, any kind of harm to self or other. Likewise, or conversely, ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Right. Lisa Unger: when you're in a state of love, you're capable of almost anything good. Compassion, Yes, compassion, empathy. Exactly. Yeah. it's like beyond just I love you, like a loving relationship with somebody, it's like more of a base emotion. Like I'm in a state of loving compassion, right? I can be there, if I can dwell there, I'm capable of almost any good thing. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And would do anything for somebody you love and you will justify. ⁓ Lisa Unger: for anybody, not just somebody in my immediate sphere, anybody that I encounter on the street. ⁓ I help? Can I help you? Do need help? If you be in that stance, things will go better than if ⁓ you're acting fear. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: We need more people in that stance right now. Lisa Unger: We need a lot more of that. We need a lot more of that for sure. For sure. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And in reading this book, there's ⁓ the and the knowledge ⁓ and, females are using herbs, and the plants, but there's also a code that they ⁓ by. So I think it's important. You we kind of talk about things, but are, there's a code, there's guardrails. I mean, there's no guardrails with AI right now. There's no guardrails really with social media. Lisa Unger: Mm-hmm. There is. There are no guardrails, period, on our culture right now. and I think it's an interesting thing, like, for reason, it makes me think about the Amish, right? ⁓ Like, the Amish, like, the idea is that, like, ⁓ they don't use any technology, right? But that is actually not true. It's actually, what's actually true ⁓ is they spend a lot of time weighing benefit to If we adopt Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Lisa Unger: this new technology, how does it harm us? How does it help us? Right? Like that is the decision making process for the Amish people. In the rest of the world, apparently, there is no calculation of the site being made. The only calculation that's being made is how much money, how much money we make? That is literally the only... ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: It's like, it make me feel good? Then I'll do it. Exactly. Is it easy? I'll do it. Lisa Unger: How much money can some people make and they are able to justify almost any, any action ⁓ that, you know, whatever, like by that level, right? okay, metric, yes. ⁓ we're making a lot of money. So that's like, that's good enough. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Right, that's their quote unquote code, I guess. What is the financial gain if I do this? Lisa Unger: It doesn't matter what else is happening to the world because of it, apparently. Apparently, that's, I mean, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's not the driving force some of this stuff. Maybe there is some kind of powerful drive good that we're just missing. But you can tell by ⁓ the like, what the initial impetus. You can still bring it back. What's greed? Greed is fear. Jennifer Jumba: you know, I'm listening too. Right? Lisa Unger: Creates the fear of not having enough. Yeah, exactly. Jennifer Jumba: Right. You're not having enough. thanks. ⁓ So I think about the code and there's like relatively things. Does this person truly need my help? How can I do the least harm? And does the help I offer this person outweigh the harm I'm going to cause someone else? ⁓ And wonder if, gosh, if we could just kind of filter so many other things through that same code. Lisa Unger: All right. Yeah. that be interesting? Jennifer Jumba: Well, I guess we'll have to have our own country or something. ⁓ Lisa Unger: That's right, we'll have to start a new country, but we'll have to apply that. Unger Island, yeah. How can I do the least harm? Jennifer Jumba: Hunger Island, yeah. But I think made me really think about this, obviously, you think about the Buddhism, is it true? it kind? ⁓ ⁓ help I offer somebody, does it outweigh the harm I would cause somebody else? Because we are so interconnected as people. so ⁓ there's consequences to whatever action is taken. So I think about the fact, OK, I'm going to help you, but who does it hurt? Lisa Unger: Correct. Right. Agree. Yeah. Right, and especially in relation to the Cove, because there is often a harm related to the cure that is offered, whatever that cure happens to be. there is always a, like the idea of like, decide, right? Like the idea, I decide to do something, it necessarily means that you have decided not Jennifer Jumba: because I felt. Mm-hmm. Lisa Unger: to do something else, there's a, there's a, you know, it's literally, I have killed this other possibility by taking this road, right? So whenever you help somebody, I mean, not necessarily like, you know, in every circumstance, but when you give something, you're taking something from something else, right? So, you know, to be able to weigh that, to be mindful enough to weigh that choice, It is similar to, it true in terms of mindful speech? Is it true? Is it kind? Is it helpful? Right? And it's got to be like two of those things. Otherwise, why? Why are you opening your mouth? Like, what's your other agenda? Like, what's your other thing that you're trying to do? So, I mean, that could be true of any action. Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. Right. other thing that I ⁓ about this book and when we talk being, fascinated by our relationship to nature and plants and also the interest in of female and ⁓ feeling empowered and how it's just, they use these herbs and plants because more discreet. And so how we're of, I to say put in our place, that's probably not the right Lisa Unger: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: phrase. like, if I'm, if I'm bold at work, I'm labeled as one thing, but if a guy acts the same way, he's a go-getter. so ⁓ Lisa Unger: Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, it's hard to talk about this particular topic without getting really, really, really, really political. But there's a moment in time right now where, you know, women don't have dominion over themselves, other institutions and are making choices for us. I don't that any of us of a certain age would have imagined Jennifer Jumba: Right. Lisa Unger: that that would be the case. But I don't want to get into it too much because this is a very topic and obviously people feel very passionately about their sides. who are we to say what's right? If in a state of loving compassion for people, we understand why people feel the way they feel, right? On both sides. From a place loving compassion, you can... ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. Lisa Unger: You can see both sides of this argument, but there is a quashing of female power and there's a moment in time where we're not even allowed to speak up without being maligned. So it's a confusing moment for women, I think, in a culture that has I think changed a lot, a lot of advances have been made. I it's confusing that so much has changed in the opposite direction in the last few years. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And I like the nod in this book to the Cove and to the knowledge and empowering, people in that sense of agency and ⁓ using to propel them, in this you know, to solve a crime is terms of who killed, Anna's ex. ⁓ But at the same time, just to be comfortable with who you are and kind of what's ⁓ Lisa Unger: Yes. Yes. Right, right. Jennifer Jumba: say expected of you, but this tradition of the knowledge in the cove that's passed down from one generation to the next. Lisa Unger: Right, and there's a way in which there's a powerful positivity to it. It's like kind of the idea that what you fight against gets stronger. The question is what are you fighting for? What are you working towards? That's really kind of the question. In an act of healing, You know, am I also myself? Jennifer Jumba: Right. And I think, people read this book and they, see the arc ⁓ of Anna and Vera Coraline, it's just so rich and well done ⁓ understand how we step into something. ⁓ Lisa Unger: Thank you. How we step into, how we take the seat of our own power. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Truly an important lesson. So I could talk to you for the whole of the day. I'm people would listen to us for the whole rest of the day. But as move to end, this is story's end, final five questions. ⁓ Lisa Unger: Yeah. same. ⁓ Yes. five questions. OK, I'm ready. Morning person. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. you a morning person or night owl? What is your phone wallpaper? Lisa Unger: My daughter, Ocean. Jennifer Jumba: Aww. Can you fold a fitted sheet by yourself? Lisa Unger: Yes. Jennifer Jumba: You'll have to teach me later because I struggle. this book is about using and herbs to heal. What would you like to be able to cure? Lisa Unger: What would I like to be able to cure, like in the world? Jennifer Jumba: anything like your for me to be taller I don't know Lisa Unger: What would I like to be able to cure? I, if I, if I could change one thing about the world, I, I I would just wish that people could see how deeply and intricately connected we all are. That would be the, guess then what I would hear is disconnection. I would hear disconnection. I would encourage people to understand that their actions and their, their thoughts. ⁓ and their intentions can do so much good in the world. Jennifer Jumba: said. And the final question, what song is always on your road trip playlist? Lisa Unger: that? that's hard. I have a long, I have long playlist. Always David Bowie. David Bowie. Hunky Dory. The album. That's always on every, on every road trip. Yeah, for sure. Jennifer Jumba: That was back on the day where you could put an album on and listen to the entire thing. It's not just... Lisa Unger: The album. Exactly. There are so many albums like that that are journeys. Hunky Dory is absolutely one of those. Every single song has its place in that album. I was just talking to Ocean about that. There's no single, or there was maybe a single, but it was the album that you waited for, the whole thing. Jennifer Jumba: whole thing and you would listen start to finish not this or you know Lisa Unger: Yes. Right, right, you mean like, ⁓ let's listen to, you know, essentials of this artist, right? Like it's like, yeah. That's an all time favorite album. I can't pick one song that I can pick an album. There you go. Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. There you go. That's awesome. ⁓ So a huge you to those of you who are listening today. Thank you to Lisa. It's another incredible conversation. As your books always leave us with such great questions and we see these questions play out through these characters in your novels. So to everybody listening, be sure to pick up a copy. It's like a couple days old of Served Him Right. To find out who is going to be a guest, visit storiedaccount.com. This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. Lisa Unger: Thank you, Jen.