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Body Bags: The Detailed Death of Brian Laundrie · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. A few months back,
0:21
Speaker 1: Carlton Reserve gave up a big secret. It's in the
0:25
Speaker 1: reserve that the body of Brian Laundry was found. We
0:30
Speaker 1: didn't really know what state his remains were in. There
0:34
Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation. But now because of forensic
0:37
Speaker 1: science and what I'm about to tell you today, we've
0:41
Speaker 1: got more answers than we could have ever vote for.
0:45
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs again.
0:53
Speaker 1: With me today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive
0:57
Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories. When Nancy Grace, Jackie, I'll tell
1:01
Speaker 1: you what I didn't think we'd ever see this day.
1:03
Speaker 1: But boy do we ask some info to impart to
1:05
Speaker 1: all our listeners. This time we do. Joe, as you
1:08
Speaker 1: and I were discussing the details that came out in
1:10
Speaker 1: this report, you said something to me that that piqued
1:14
Speaker 1: interest right off the top of the bad and that
1:16
Speaker 1: is the fact that the autopsy report for Brian Laundry
1:22
Speaker 1: is not one report, but five. Please explain that to me. Yeah, yeah,
1:27
Speaker 1: and that's something I gotta tell you. When when I
1:30
Speaker 1: you know, of course, I had people from all over
1:31
Speaker 1: that were shooting me the link when it first came out,
1:33
Speaker 1: and I was amazed because, yeah, we don't just simply
1:38
Speaker 1: have an autopsy report. Not that that's not a great thing,
1:41
Speaker 1: but yeah, we've got five of these reports, Jackie, and
1:44
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of amazing. I'm just gonna kind of
1:46
Speaker 1: give you the basic rundown real quick of what we have.
1:49
Speaker 1: We have the Emmy investigator's report, which is actually the
1:52
Speaker 1: medical legal death investigator that physically went out to the
1:56
Speaker 1: scene and observed what was out there. Remember, they're the
2:00
Speaker 1: eyes and the ears of the forensic pathologists. They go
2:04
Speaker 1: out and they bring in data for the pathologists so
2:07
Speaker 1: that they can make determinations. Most of the time, forensic
2:10
Speaker 1: pathologists don't go into the field. Then you have the
2:12
Speaker 1: forensic pathology. But you said the investigator's report. What kind
2:17
Speaker 1: of things are on that report? You're looking at detailed
2:21
Speaker 1: drawings of where everything is laid out, photographs. What exactly
2:25
Speaker 1: is the pathologists going to be looking at when he
2:28
Speaker 1: reads that report. Well, first off, you know, you have
2:30
Speaker 1: to understand that the forensic pathologist doesn't physically go to
2:33
Speaker 1: the scene. You see that on television. It just it
2:36
Speaker 1: happens only in rare occasion, So most of the time
2:40
Speaker 1: you're going to have a medical examiner investigator, which is
2:42
Speaker 1: what I did for a living all those years. That
2:45
Speaker 1: is going to be the eyes and the ears of
2:47
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists out in the field. So they physically
2:50
Speaker 1: go out there and observe the environment and the environment
2:53
Speaker 1: in which the body is found. And that's important here
2:56
Speaker 1: because that lends context to the story that is being
3:00
Speaker 1: told by the environment. So in Brian Laundry's case, you know,
3:06
Speaker 1: you've got skeletal remains which are essentially deposited out in
3:10
Speaker 1: the swampy area, and it's kind of convoluted and confused.
3:16
Speaker 1: If I'll put it to you this way, if you
3:18
Speaker 1: just had a bunch of cops and went out and
3:20
Speaker 1: randomly picked up evidence and brought it back to the
3:22
Speaker 1: morgue and handed it to the doctor and said, here,
3:27
Speaker 1: figure this out. Can you imagine what a nightmare that
3:30
Speaker 1: would be. So the medical examiner investigator is kind of
3:34
Speaker 1: an extension of the forensic pathologists, and what they're taking
3:36
Speaker 1: a look at is first off, the distribution of the bones,
3:40
Speaker 1: and you want to see how far out they extend
3:43
Speaker 1: in this environment, where are they deposited. How are they deposited?
3:46
Speaker 1: Are some partially buried? Are they just laying out on
3:49
Speaker 1: the bare surface of the earth and this kind of
3:52
Speaker 1: loamy dirt that's down there with all the decomposing vegetable
3:56
Speaker 1: matter that's surrounding it. Is the ground soft? Is it hard?
4:00
Speaker 1: Does it look like there may have been a grave
4:03
Speaker 1: that was adjacent to this area? You know, all kinds
4:05
Speaker 1: of issues like that. And one of the things that
4:07
Speaker 1: really was telling for me is that this is how
4:10
Speaker 1: detailed this report is. And I encourage all of our
4:12
Speaker 1: listeners and bodybacks to read this report if you're really
4:15
Speaker 1: interested in forensics. This investigator did such a fantastic job.
4:19
Speaker 1: They even talked about the height of what the water
4:23
Speaker 1: level had been at and you could see that. You
4:25
Speaker 1: know how many times if you have a flooded area,
4:28
Speaker 1: you'll see where the waterline got up to. If you
4:30
Speaker 1: live near a river or maybe near the ocean, you
4:32
Speaker 1: can see that kind of benchmark, that staining that takes place.
4:36
Speaker 1: They made note of that, and that's significant in this
4:39
Speaker 1: case because remember what they were telling us weeks ago
4:41
Speaker 1: when they finally recovered Brian Launder's remains. They said that
4:44
Speaker 1: remains had been submerged, and these depths are going to
4:48
Speaker 1: vary out there. So the EMMY investigator puts all of
4:53
Speaker 1: that in context and then they make note of not
4:56
Speaker 1: only the bones and the distribution of the bone in
5:00
Speaker 1: the area that they cover, but any other items. And
5:03
Speaker 1: we've boy did they find items. You know, we've we've
5:06
Speaker 1: heard about the dry bag, you know that was that
5:09
Speaker 1: was out there. They found that, they found the notebook,
5:11
Speaker 1: they found a box that the notebook was in. They
5:14
Speaker 1: haven't found a weapon out there. They found, believe it
5:17
Speaker 1: or not, they found a projectile and you know that
5:21
Speaker 1: projectile was actually buried beneath six inches of this loamy
5:27
Speaker 1: soil that I mentioned. You know how they found that, Well,
5:30
Speaker 1: it wasn't laying on top of the ground. That means
5:32
Speaker 1: that they went out there with metal detectors and swept
5:34
Speaker 1: the area. So there's a lot that goes into this,
5:38
Speaker 1: into this environment. And you know, one of the things
5:42
Speaker 1: that I was always interested in as an EMMY investigator,
5:45
Speaker 1: I think it applies here is how much cover and
5:49
Speaker 1: concealment was there out here, you know, and when you
5:52
Speaker 1: get into a swampy area. They used terms like canopy.
5:56
Speaker 1: We heard we hear that term lots of times relative
5:59
Speaker 1: to jungle. What kind of canopy do you have out there?
6:03
Speaker 1: How thick are the leaves above you? It is this
6:05
Speaker 1: an area that could be appreciated if you were flying
6:08
Speaker 1: over it. And it's pretty pretty thick vegetation out there.
6:11
Speaker 1: And of course it was all around the rim of
6:15
Speaker 1: this area where water had settled in Jackie. Okay, that's
6:19
Speaker 1: one report. What's next, you know, after the body comes in,
6:24
Speaker 1: that's brought in by the transport service, after the EMMY
6:27
Speaker 1: investigator has done their part at the scene, it's at
6:30
Speaker 1: this point in time that the forensic pathologist will begin
6:33
Speaker 1: to do what would normally be considering an autopsy. And yeah,
6:36
Speaker 1: this is an autopsy, even though you don't have a
6:38
Speaker 1: fully intact body. But the pathologist actually goes in with
6:44
Speaker 1: all of these bones and there were roughly, I think
6:46
Speaker 1: they recovered just under one hundred bones, I think, and
6:50
Speaker 1: there's just over two hundred bones in the human body,
6:52
Speaker 1: So you begin to talk about smaller bones you know
6:56
Speaker 1: that we have in our body. Some of those things
6:57
Speaker 1: you you're just not going to recover. But they did
7:00
Speaker 1: find one hundred and they were significant to have found
7:04
Speaker 1: that number. Of bones, Joe, would that be considered a
7:08
Speaker 1: successful recovery. A successful recovery is relative in forensic science.
7:14
Speaker 1: You know, our fallback position is you essentially take what
7:18
Speaker 1: you can get, and if this is what you're presented with,
7:22
Speaker 1: then that's what you're going to move forward with. And
7:23
Speaker 1: we understand as forensic scientists that you know, like the
7:27
Speaker 1: small bones that you find in the hand for instance,
7:31
Speaker 1: the tips of the fingers, those sorts of things in
7:34
Speaker 1: the feet as well, some of those things are just
7:37
Speaker 1: going to be gone. They'll either be gone as a
7:40
Speaker 1: result of being washed away by water or you know,
7:43
Speaker 1: in cases like this where small animals are going to
7:46
Speaker 1: come along and take bones away and they'll take them
7:48
Speaker 1: back to their little burrows. Because you know, you have
7:51
Speaker 1: to understand these bones that these animals seek out. They're
7:56
Speaker 1: protein rich in animals that I think most people think.
7:59
Speaker 1: You know, they look at, say, for instance, of squirrel,
8:02
Speaker 1: they might look at a raccoon or something and think, oh, well,
8:05
Speaker 1: it's so beautiful. You know, they wouldn't do anything to
8:08
Speaker 1: a human body. No, they're seeking out protein and that's
8:12
Speaker 1: what they kind of get an infusion of with these bones,
8:14
Speaker 1: and they can sense that and they'll take these tiny
8:16
Speaker 1: bones something that's manageable and take it back to their
8:19
Speaker 1: burrow and they're going to hang on to it. And
8:21
Speaker 1: we found tiny bones like that before on recovery. So
8:24
Speaker 1: the fact that they've got a hundred is really significant.
8:27
Speaker 1: And even better than that is the fact that they
8:31
Speaker 1: recovered I think twenty six pieces of skull. And of course,
8:37
Speaker 1: at you know, what we're looking for here is cause
8:41
Speaker 1: and manner of death in this particular case, and that
8:45
Speaker 1: goes to a bigger issue when you have to account
8:48
Speaker 1: for everything that you have. And what I teach people
8:53
Speaker 1: relative to forensics is this negative findings and always keep
8:58
Speaker 1: this in mind. In forensics science, well just about any
9:00
Speaker 1: kind of science, negative findings are just as important as
9:05
Speaker 1: positive funding. So if you're absence something, or you know,
9:09
Speaker 1: maybe you're doing a test and it doesn't come out
9:11
Speaker 1: in a positive manner in which you might want it to,
9:14
Speaker 1: that means that it takes you down another path. Okay,
9:17
Speaker 1: So in this case you mentioned, is it's a success. Yeah,
9:20
Speaker 1: it's a success because we've got a hundred as opposed
9:23
Speaker 1: to say fifty, So that is significant. We've got a
9:28
Speaker 1: hundred bonds to work with. I wish we had more,
9:30
Speaker 1: but that's what we have and we're going to move
9:32
Speaker 1: on from there. So you have to When the friends
9:35
Speaker 1: and pathologists takes this, they have this kind of particulate
9:38
Speaker 1: skeleton that they lay out on this big stainless steel table,
9:43
Speaker 1: and they'll go through and they will inventory every single
9:46
Speaker 1: thing they have. They'll take photographs of it, they'll take
9:49
Speaker 1: measurements of it, and just to make sure that they
9:54
Speaker 1: can account for everything that was recovered in the field,
9:58
Speaker 1: and also to say, you know what, guy, as I
10:00
Speaker 1: tell you what, we didn't recover this in this why
10:04
Speaker 1: don't we make another run out there now. The reason
10:07
Speaker 1: that's important is because now you've got a medical doctor
10:11
Speaker 1: looking who who is an anatomical not just a forensic pathologist,
10:15
Speaker 1: but most of these guys are what are referred to
10:16
Speaker 1: as anatomical pathologist. That means that they truly study the body.
10:22
Speaker 1: They will say, I'll tell you what, let's go back
10:24
Speaker 1: out one more time and see if we can find this, this,
10:27
Speaker 1: and this. I suggest you look in these particular areas
10:30
Speaker 1: relative to where you found these particular bones, and then
10:33
Speaker 1: you go back out and you do another pass at
10:35
Speaker 1: that area. So that gives you an idea of kind
10:38
Speaker 1: of where you stand, and you can do a general
10:42
Speaker 1: overall assessment because the more sample you have, the higher
10:46
Speaker 1: the probability is that you're first off going to determined
10:50
Speaker 1: manner and cause at death, and secondly you're going to
10:53
Speaker 1: be able to get a positive identification. And that's that's
10:56
Speaker 1: kind of the heart and soul of what the medical
10:58
Speaker 1: examiner is there for. We're there for three principal reasons,
11:01
Speaker 1: the manner of death, the cause of death, and who
11:04
Speaker 1: is this person? And that's what we do in that environment.
11:08
Speaker 1: So you have the body such as it is in
11:12
Speaker 1: total in that from that perspective, now you've got this
11:16
Speaker 1: particulate skull. The fact that we have the skull that
11:19
Speaker 1: is fragmented will say that that means it's like a
11:24
Speaker 1: big puzzle, is significant because that gives us an indication
11:28
Speaker 1: that something probably traumatic has happened to the skull, because
11:33
Speaker 1: skulls do not just spontaneously fall apart, even in the
11:36
Speaker 1: face of the decomposition. Think about how many documentaries you
11:39
Speaker 1: may have watched on burials, ancient burials. Even when they
11:44
Speaker 1: recovered King Richard the Third's body out of the car
11:47
Speaker 1: park over in England, many years ago. He'd been buried
11:50
Speaker 1: for hundreds and hundreds of years. Guess what, his skull
11:53
Speaker 1: is still intact. You can tell where a dagger had
11:55
Speaker 1: gone into the back of the skull. Skulls are very resilient,
11:58
Speaker 1: so the fact that the skull that they have is
12:02
Speaker 1: essentially particulate is significant when we begin to think about
12:06
Speaker 1: the manner of death and the causality as to what
12:09
Speaker 1: brought about their death. So that is very important. And
12:14
Speaker 1: what will you know? We have this forensic pathology report
12:17
Speaker 1: that essentially is an autopsy. It's going to be their
12:20
Speaker 1: examination of the bone. They're going to rule out any
12:23
Speaker 1: kind of trauma that they might see. I can tell
12:26
Speaker 1: you that based upon what I read in the forensic
12:31
Speaker 1: pathology report, there was little or no soft tissue left. However,
12:39
Speaker 1: they did state that along spinal proceeds that is the
12:43
Speaker 1: vertebral bodies in the back, they did see some evidence
12:47
Speaker 1: of what's referred to as adapacer. And this is a
12:51
Speaker 1: unique thing that happens, particularly in bodies that have been
12:55
Speaker 1: in water. Old timers used to refer to it as
12:59
Speaker 1: death wise acts. And the best way I can really
13:03
Speaker 1: describe it is the fat during the process of decomposition
13:07
Speaker 1: actually turns into it gives the appearance of almost some
13:11
Speaker 1: people describe it as cottage cheese or even cauliflower. It
13:15
Speaker 1: becomes very hard, and there were certain focal areas of
13:19
Speaker 1: that left behind. But there, Jackie, there was no other,
13:23
Speaker 1: no other soft tissue left on the body. So that
13:25
Speaker 1: gives you an indication that the body had in fact
13:29
Speaker 1: been out there for a protracted period of time. The
13:32
Speaker 1: elements played a part in this. I think that probably
13:34
Speaker 1: animal activity played a significant part in this. And you know,
13:38
Speaker 1: so the forensic pathologist is kind of left wanting at
13:42
Speaker 1: this point because you know, look, I mean, it's one
13:45
Speaker 1: thing to make a fatal diagnosis if you will on
13:49
Speaker 1: a body that is intact with soft tissue. It's completely
13:54
Speaker 1: different if all you have or skeletal remains. It's it's very,
13:57
Speaker 1: very difficult. So it's at that point point when I'm
14:00
Speaker 1: flipping through the report, I almost became giddy, if you
14:04
Speaker 1: can imagine that looking at a report like this, because
14:08
Speaker 1: the most robust portion of this totality of paperwork that
14:12
Speaker 1: came out was actually generated by the forensic anthropologist. Just
14:17
Speaker 1: going to ask you about that, Joe, you and I
14:18
Speaker 1: had discussed the five different types of reports as I
14:22
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, So there was the forensic pathology report and
14:25
Speaker 1: the forensic anthropology report. What's the difference. Oh yeah, it
14:31
Speaker 1: is significant, you know, forensic anthropologist, you know, and it's
14:34
Speaker 1: gone down I guess in Lore now relative to the
14:37
Speaker 1: body farm up in Tennessee at ut. You know, with
14:41
Speaker 1: doctor Bass and what they do. The studies that they
14:43
Speaker 1: do up they're relative to human remains, and they refer
14:48
Speaker 1: to them as many times as the desiccation studies. You
14:51
Speaker 1: hear that, but essentially they're trying to determine, you know,
14:54
Speaker 1: the rate of decomposition. Well, those are forensic anthropologists that
14:57
Speaker 1: do that. And what happens in this rendered down state
15:00
Speaker 1: is many times all you have left or skeletal remains.
15:03
Speaker 1: And we're very unique, you know. Even in our skeletal composition,
15:11
Speaker 1: it is unique to us. It bears the marks of
15:14
Speaker 1: growth or lack of growth, or level of nutrition. Injuries
15:18
Speaker 1: that we've had, say, for instance, we've had a broken bone,
15:21
Speaker 1: even though you might perceive that it is healed, and
15:23
Speaker 1: it is very well healed. If you've if you've had
15:25
Speaker 1: a significant fracture in your life, guess what if it's
15:28
Speaker 1: going to show up on an X ray, and it
15:30
Speaker 1: will certainly show up in the hands of a forensic
15:32
Speaker 1: anthropologist as they are examining a bone. Say, if somebody's
15:35
Speaker 1: fractured a big bone like the femur, you'll see a
15:38
Speaker 1: little fracture line in there where it's it's kind of
15:40
Speaker 1: resolved and healed. And why that is important is that
15:44
Speaker 1: that is a specific point of identification relative to these
15:47
Speaker 1: remains that are otherwise completely compromised. You're absent any other
15:51
Speaker 1: ability perhaps to get them identified. But if somebody's got
15:55
Speaker 1: pins or screws in their hip or their knee, or
15:57
Speaker 1: their shoulder or wherever, if they got old fracture lines.
16:00
Speaker 1: I've had cases where I've had individuals that have been
16:02
Speaker 1: staffed through the ribs and can you imagine this. You
16:05
Speaker 1: can still see the groove where the knife might have
16:07
Speaker 1: passed through, maybe thirty years earlier. But that's a specific
16:11
Speaker 1: identifier that's unique to that person. But with this particular skeleton,
16:16
Speaker 1: I go back to what I'd said earlier. We have
16:18
Speaker 1: got this fragmented skull and who else, who else is
16:22
Speaker 1: better than a forensic anthropologist to actually take the skull.
16:27
Speaker 1: And what was done is that they essentially reassembled this
16:31
Speaker 1: skull as best they could. And when that reassembly had
16:37
Speaker 1: had a reassemblage had taken place, Boy was a lot
16:41
Speaker 1: revealed here because essentially it verified what a lot of
16:47
Speaker 1: people had speculated about, I think, and it's one thing
16:50
Speaker 1: to speculate, but when you can get scientific confirmation, as
16:54
Speaker 1: in this particular case, when you've got so many people
16:57
Speaker 1: that are wondering about it, so many people that are
16:59
Speaker 1: asking questions, this is big. It's it's one of the
17:03
Speaker 1: biggest things to kind of rise up out of all
17:06
Speaker 1: of this data, you know that has been recovered and examined,
17:09
Speaker 1: and so with this skull, when they finally got that
17:13
Speaker 1: particulate skull put back together, it was the biggest reveal
17:18
Speaker 1: of all because it was at that point in time
17:20
Speaker 1: that the forensic anthropologist and the forensic pathologists came together
17:23
Speaker 1: and their conclusion is that whoever the skull belonged to,
17:27
Speaker 1: it sustained a self inflicted gunshot one So, Joe. The
17:31
Speaker 1: last two reports of our five are by their titles
17:35
Speaker 1: pretty self explanatory. That is the DNA analysis report and
17:40
Speaker 1: the forensic dentistry, which is how is how the identification
17:45
Speaker 1: was made on Brian Laundry. Yeah, right, Yard Jackie, And
17:48
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would just kind of
17:49
Speaker 1: gloss over this, but you have to understand this is
17:52
Speaker 1: one of the biggest points of contention, at least from
17:54
Speaker 1: my perspective having dealt with this case since I don't know,
17:59
Speaker 1: probably the actually the first day of the investigation, reporting
18:06
Speaker 1: on it and this sort of thing. This is significant
18:09
Speaker 1: because you've got to know who the individual is. That's
18:12
Speaker 1: that's one of the major questions here. And so the
18:15
Speaker 1: DNA report that the analysts generated is kind of fascinating,
18:19
Speaker 1: particularly you know, if you're interested in DNA and how
18:22
Speaker 1: this works. What they did is, you know, not only
18:26
Speaker 1: do they have do they have the bone that the
18:28
Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist examined, but they also had another element. They
18:33
Speaker 1: had teeth, And so with the teeth and then the
18:37
Speaker 1: long bones, what they were able to do is to
18:39
Speaker 1: do an extraction, which means that they can go into
18:43
Speaker 1: the pulp of the tooth. They use a very fine
18:46
Speaker 1: drill and go in there and extract pulp and it's
18:49
Speaker 1: kind of a robust area where you can harvest DNA
18:53
Speaker 1: from and also in you want to use like a
18:56
Speaker 1: larger bone if you can pelvis or femur. In this case,
19:00
Speaker 1: I think they used the femur and remove some DNA
19:05
Speaker 1: sample from there as well. Now, this is something quite
19:08
Speaker 1: interesting here. When we were in the middle of reporting
19:11
Speaker 1: and I had actually talked to Nancy Grace about this, Jackie,
19:14
Speaker 1: there was one day in particular where I saw an
19:17
Speaker 1: FBI investigator go walking in the door. You know all
19:20
Speaker 1: those video clips of them going into Brian Launder's parents home.
19:24
Speaker 1: One of the things I recognized and I think she
19:27
Speaker 1: was holding them in her right hand. I looked at
19:30
Speaker 1: that and I said, you know what those are DNA
19:32
Speaker 1: sample boxes she's carrying in. And I think that was
19:35
Speaker 1: kind of confirmed because what we did find out is
19:37
Speaker 1: that they went in and did buckle mucosal swaps of
19:43
Speaker 1: both Brian Launder's mom and dad. And what that means
19:46
Speaker 1: is they go in and scrape the cheek cells out
19:49
Speaker 1: and they can do a comparison relative to the parents'
19:53
Speaker 1: DNA versus the unidentified skeletal remains that they had. And
19:59
Speaker 1: kind of hand in hand with that, we have this
20:01
Speaker 1: forensic dentistry examination that was conducted. Some people know them
20:06
Speaker 1: as forensic odontologists. You hear them associated with bite marks
20:11
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. But you know what, forensic
20:13
Speaker 1: dentists that forensic odentologists are used far more frequently relative
20:18
Speaker 1: to identification than they are most of the time with
20:22
Speaker 1: bite mark because you have so many unidentified bodies. People
20:25
Speaker 1: aren't aware of that. In the public, you get a
20:29
Speaker 1: lot of decomposed bodies, and our default position traditionally has
20:32
Speaker 1: always been to go to dentistry because you have these
20:35
Speaker 1: dentists that can go in and examine the teeth, and
20:38
Speaker 1: teeth are fascinating. First off, teeth are not bone. People
20:41
Speaker 1: think that, but these teeth that they have out at
20:44
Speaker 1: the scene, they're found in both the mandible, which is
20:49
Speaker 1: your lower jaw okay, the mandible, and then you have
20:52
Speaker 1: them in the maxilla, which is upper portion of your mouth.
20:55
Speaker 1: So they were able to actually extract teeth. The dentist
20:59
Speaker 1: was and aid in the harvesting of DNA from those samples. Now,
21:03
Speaker 1: in addition, in addition to the DNA, the dentist also
21:08
Speaker 1: did a dental examination of the teeth that they had
21:13
Speaker 1: And this is quite fascinating because you have to understand
21:18
Speaker 1: that in order to do a dental identification, you can
21:20
Speaker 1: do a perfect examination on a dead body, all right,
21:24
Speaker 1: an unidentified dead body. But guess what you have at
21:27
Speaker 1: the end of that if you have nothing to compare
21:29
Speaker 1: it to, well, you have an dental examination on a
21:33
Speaker 1: dead body. That's it. That's the road ends literally right there.
21:37
Speaker 1: So what you have to do, and from an investigative standpoint,
21:40
Speaker 1: if you suspect that it is somebody, you go to
21:44
Speaker 1: a practitioner, a dentist that has treated the suspected individual
21:48
Speaker 1: in the past, and you get there what's referred to
21:50
Speaker 1: as anti mortem dental records. And they actually make note
21:55
Speaker 1: of this in this report, and that's significant that they
21:57
Speaker 1: went to Brin Laundry's Pride, a practicing dentist, and retrieved
22:02
Speaker 1: his chart and they begin to talk about malaclusions and
22:06
Speaker 1: how the teeth are rotated and how they're pitched and
22:09
Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, and they compare the chart
22:11
Speaker 1: that they have with the teeth that they now have,
22:14
Speaker 1: and they were able to get a positive ID based
22:16
Speaker 1: on that. I don't know of any case that we've
22:35
Speaker 1: covered in body bags thus far that has contained this
22:40
Speaker 1: much information. I was kind of blown away relative to
22:44
Speaker 1: the amount of data that we have to go over
22:46
Speaker 1: in this case. It is a lot, Joe, and every
22:49
Speaker 1: bit of it is fascinating. And I'm going to pinpoint
22:52
Speaker 1: one right now. You talked about the projectile that was
22:55
Speaker 1: discovered with the use of a metal detector. I was
22:58
Speaker 1: reading in the report that that projectile was found about
23:02
Speaker 1: fifty to sixty feet south of the area where the
23:07
Speaker 1: skull fragments and the handgun we're found. When it comes
23:11
Speaker 1: to an investigation like this that is so painstaking. You're
23:15
Speaker 1: talking about a lot of man hours in finding that fragment. Yeah,
23:21
Speaker 1: you are. And it all comes to listen when you
23:24
Speaker 1: go into a scene like this, This is not a
23:27
Speaker 1: scene that you just kind of willy nearly walk onto
23:29
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, you gotta look over there. You got
23:31
Speaker 1: to look over there, and I'll look over here, and
23:33
Speaker 1: you know, maybe we'll find some of this night how
23:34
Speaker 1: it's done. This kind of scene like this, your efforts
23:40
Speaker 1: are one or lost based on the preparation that goes
23:43
Speaker 1: into prior to even beginning to enter into a scene
23:46
Speaker 1: like this. Now, kind of let me paint the picture,
23:48
Speaker 1: because this is a hostile environment. And I don't mean
23:52
Speaker 1: hostile in the sense that you know, you've got lines
23:55
Speaker 1: and tigers and bears of might, even though people have
23:57
Speaker 1: said there might be alligators, the fact that it's super
24:02
Speaker 1: duper hot, You've got snakes out there. The landscape is
24:06
Speaker 1: kind of always changing. It's wet, it's high humidity. You're miserable.
24:11
Speaker 1: Trust me, I've been in environments like this. But what
24:14
Speaker 1: you have to do to begin with is decide who's
24:16
Speaker 1: going to handle what you know. Who's going to be
24:19
Speaker 1: the photographer, who's going to be described that means the
24:21
Speaker 1: person writing everything down. Who's going to be the person
24:23
Speaker 1: that's going to be down on their hands and knees
24:25
Speaker 1: moving layers of dirt away. Who's going to be the
24:28
Speaker 1: person that's in charge of the little markers they're going
24:30
Speaker 1: to put them in the ground. And so in order
24:32
Speaker 1: to do this, you have to break up into teams,
24:35
Speaker 1: and then the teams will come together and actually grid
24:38
Speaker 1: off the area. Can you imagine that? So that just
24:41
Speaker 1: imagine a gigantic plat of the land where you've essentially
24:45
Speaker 1: got these grids that are roughly two by two two
24:49
Speaker 1: feet by two feet can be three feet by three feet,
24:52
Speaker 1: and you work each one of those little grid squares.
24:56
Speaker 1: And most of the time in the past I've seen
24:59
Speaker 1: people string to string these things off, and they're very
25:02
Speaker 1: very uniformed, and you only work one little section at
25:06
Speaker 1: a time, and it is painstaking, but you don't want
25:09
Speaker 1: to miss anything if you focus. It's like anything else
25:13
Speaker 1: in life. If you look at something big, okay, and
25:16
Speaker 1: you say, oh my god, I've got to do all
25:18
Speaker 1: this work, it's overwhelming. If you look at that one
25:21
Speaker 1: little section, it's easy to kind of kind of handle.
25:24
Speaker 1: It's like the old adage, how do you eat? How
25:26
Speaker 1: do you eat an elephant? Well, you eat at one
25:28
Speaker 1: bite at a time. And trust me, this is the
25:30
Speaker 1: biggest elephant of all. When you have got human remains
25:34
Speaker 1: that are scattered from here to kingdom, come laying all
25:37
Speaker 1: out there in this muddy environment, and you're miserable. So
25:41
Speaker 1: you have to be very very ordered. And the fact
25:43
Speaker 1: that they found this spent round so far away from
25:50
Speaker 1: where the rest of the deposition of everything was, it's
25:54
Speaker 1: kind of significant. I think it goes to the professionalism
25:59
Speaker 1: regarding the investigators, how thorough they were, because this is
26:02
Speaker 1: something you could easily pass right over. I suspect that
26:08
Speaker 1: you had several people that were out there with metal
26:10
Speaker 1: detectors essentially very carefully and methodically may work maybe working
26:16
Speaker 1: essentially in a shoulder to shoulder to put it in
26:20
Speaker 1: a certain way and kind of sweeping back and forth,
26:23
Speaker 1: back and forth gently, kind of moving forward. And whenever
26:26
Speaker 1: you get a hit, you take a little flag out
26:28
Speaker 1: and you market and then you keep on going. You
26:31
Speaker 1: keep on going, and everywhere you get a little hit,
26:33
Speaker 1: your market and then you go back and you carefully
26:36
Speaker 1: uncover that area. In this particular case, they were able
26:39
Speaker 1: to find this projectile buried, from what I understand from
26:42
Speaker 1: the report, almost six inches beneath the top layer of soil. Joe,
26:47
Speaker 1: can we assume by the fact that this projectile fragment
26:52
Speaker 1: was found that this would mean that there was an
26:56
Speaker 1: entrance and an exit wound? Oh yeah, yeah, most likely.
27:00
Speaker 1: And you know, you look, not only do we find
27:02
Speaker 1: a projectile, Jackie, they found they found a handgun as well.
27:07
Speaker 1: And this is where ballistics comes in. And I think
27:10
Speaker 1: I suspect that more than likely the FBI got on
27:13
Speaker 1: this with their lab. The weapon, I can only imagine
27:18
Speaker 1: was probably compromising. It was a unique weapon because not
27:20
Speaker 1: only it's not just a standard thirty eight Special revolver,
27:25
Speaker 1: it is a combination thirty eight Special slash three fifty
27:29
Speaker 1: seven magnum revolver. It's almost like a hybrid. It's kind
27:32
Speaker 1: of an unusual weapon, and that makes it unique. It
27:36
Speaker 1: makes it unique to Brian Laundry, maybe his family. I
27:39
Speaker 1: don't know who actually owned this weapon, but it was
27:42
Speaker 1: found there. And then more significantly is that that round
27:45
Speaker 1: that I mentioned that was, you know, roughly six inches
27:48
Speaker 1: below that top layer of dirt. Ballistically, it matched up
27:52
Speaker 1: to this weapon. That means that we've got a significant
27:55
Speaker 1: tie back to this weapon. It puts that round coming
27:58
Speaker 1: out of that particular handgun because you know, as we've
28:02
Speaker 1: talked about many many times on our show and as
28:06
Speaker 1: well as with Nancy, there is a specific ballistic fingerprint
28:10
Speaker 1: that is left behind on the outer portion of those
28:13
Speaker 1: soft lead projectiles and also on the outside of a
28:16
Speaker 1: jacket that marries up to the lands and grooves inside
28:20
Speaker 1: of that barrel. So, as the medical examiner told us
28:24
Speaker 1: in his report, Brian Laundry was killed by a single
28:27
Speaker 1: gunshot to the head. What I found interesting in what
28:31
Speaker 1: was released in this report is the trajectory of the bullet. Yeah,
28:36
Speaker 1: isn't that kind of interesting? And you know, just to
28:40
Speaker 1: kind of give you an idea. One of the things
28:41
Speaker 1: that that we look for and in any kind of
28:48
Speaker 1: gunfire related death is to try to determine obviously range
28:51
Speaker 1: of fire. That's something that you hear about on a
28:53
Speaker 1: regular basis. And we also try to determine the trajectory
29:01
Speaker 1: of the round. That means the path that travels on.
29:04
Speaker 1: And sometimes we can estimate things like whether the round
29:09
Speaker 1: is traveling from above to below or from below to above.
29:15
Speaker 1: We you know, take a look if it's going from
29:16
Speaker 1: front to back, those sorts of things. So it's it
29:21
Speaker 1: is significant that we in fact have this, but just
29:25
Speaker 1: so our listeners understand the entrance wound that they were
29:30
Speaker 1: able to determine that it's interesting and let me tell
29:32
Speaker 1: you how we do this, because people say, well, how
29:34
Speaker 1: do you know that this is an entrance wound when
29:36
Speaker 1: all you have is a skull? Well, it's it's that's
29:39
Speaker 1: a great question I'm glad to ask. When we have
29:42
Speaker 1: a skull, for instance, we're going to look for what's
29:45
Speaker 1: referred to and I remember these words, it's called internal beveling.
29:50
Speaker 1: And if you've ever seen a beveled piece of wood
29:53
Speaker 1: that's got kind of a rounded edge to it, the
29:57
Speaker 1: beveling will always be in the interior of the skull,
30:02
Speaker 1: adjacent to the entrance wound. So when you open the
30:04
Speaker 1: skull up, you look at it, and if the inner
30:07
Speaker 1: wall of the skull is beveled or kind of curved,
30:10
Speaker 1: that's an indication that the round actually entered at that point. Now,
30:15
Speaker 1: as far as the exit goes, this entrance, let me
30:17
Speaker 1: back up. The entrance is actually in the left temporal area.
30:21
Speaker 1: Left temporal So if you'll go to your ear, your
30:24
Speaker 1: left ear, and simply move your finger forward of your
30:28
Speaker 1: left ear. Okay, that's your temporal bone right there. Now,
30:32
Speaker 1: what this round does is that it travels from that entrance.
30:36
Speaker 1: It travels essentially from left to right. So we're entering
30:40
Speaker 1: the left temporal bone and we are exiting out the
30:44
Speaker 1: right parietal bone. Some people will say parietal and the
30:48
Speaker 1: petal bone is found to the rear and above your
30:55
Speaker 1: right ear. You have one on each side, but in
30:57
Speaker 1: this case it's going to be the right parietal bone,
31:00
Speaker 1: and it's you know, they're matching the scene up so
31:02
Speaker 1: that it is slightly above the right ear, and it
31:07
Speaker 1: gives you kind of this odd trajectory. So if you'll
31:09
Speaker 1: just imagine a rod running from forward of your left
31:14
Speaker 1: ear and going coming out behind your right ear. That'll
31:19
Speaker 1: give you an idea is how this you know, how
31:21
Speaker 1: this round actually traveled through the skull and of course
31:25
Speaker 1: it blew out the other side. Now, I know a
31:27
Speaker 1: lot of people would ask, well, you know, Morgan, you
31:31
Speaker 1: talked about how the you know, the skull is in
31:33
Speaker 1: twenty six pieces. I think it was they recovered. You know,
31:36
Speaker 1: why is it in twenty six pieces? Why why didn't
31:38
Speaker 1: it just you have one hole on one side and
31:40
Speaker 1: another hole on the other side. Well, you got you
31:43
Speaker 1: gotta understand something. When a weapon is fired into a skull,
31:48
Speaker 1: you're not just talking about the projectile itself entering the skull.
31:52
Speaker 1: All right. Now here's a bit of science where you
31:54
Speaker 1: A lot of us learn this in about the seventh
31:56
Speaker 1: or eighth grade in physical science. And this is a
31:58
Speaker 1: beautiful thing, particularly when you're looking at death investigation. Now,
32:02
Speaker 1: it's not just the projectile, and this is a large projectile.
32:06
Speaker 1: It's a hunk of lead coming out of this Out
32:08
Speaker 1: of this weapon, you've also got hot expanding gas. And
32:14
Speaker 1: if you don't think that's powerful, hang on, all right,
32:17
Speaker 1: because the bullet itself, the projectile is creating a hole, right,
32:22
Speaker 1: it's creating a hole in the left temporal bone. And
32:26
Speaker 1: followed closely behind this bullet is this really hot air.
32:30
Speaker 1: If you ever see, like you know, videos of weapons
32:35
Speaker 1: being fired at night, it looks like flames are shooting
32:37
Speaker 1: out of the end of them, Well it is. That's
32:39
Speaker 1: some of that hot air coming out. And hot air
32:42
Speaker 1: always expands, it never contracts, so it's going to expand.
32:46
Speaker 1: And when you go into what's referred to as the
32:49
Speaker 1: cranial vault, which is where our brain is housed, that's
32:53
Speaker 1: the inside of the skull that hot air is looking
32:57
Speaker 1: to expand. And when we were being formed, when we
33:02
Speaker 1: were in fetal development, our skull actually came together along
33:07
Speaker 1: these lines that are called sutra lines, and they look
33:09
Speaker 1: like teeth that are kind of integrated, and that's one
33:12
Speaker 1: of the weaker spots of the skull. So as that
33:15
Speaker 1: hot air is expanding out into that cranial vault, all
33:20
Speaker 1: of a sudden, those sutra lines blow apart. All right,
33:24
Speaker 1: That's why you have these really nasty head injuries. You
33:27
Speaker 1: know that you see people with self and maybe people
33:29
Speaker 1: have seen these horrible images on the internet. That's one
33:32
Speaker 1: of the reasons that happens. You have the projectile plays
33:34
Speaker 1: a large role in this, but that hot air that's
33:37
Speaker 1: expanding and more than likely it's hard to tell because
33:39
Speaker 1: there was no tissue left. More than likely, this is
33:42
Speaker 1: what we refer to as a press or a tight
33:45
Speaker 1: contact gunshot one. So you're forming a seal over that
33:50
Speaker 1: particular area where the projectile went in. And Buddy, let
33:54
Speaker 1: me tell you something. That gas wants to seek the
33:57
Speaker 1: weakest area that it can so it can do what
33:59
Speaker 1: it actually does, and so it blows out all of
34:02
Speaker 1: those bits of skull and they just literally come apart.
34:05
Speaker 1: That's why you had it not really disintegrate. Disintegrator is
34:09
Speaker 1: not accurate, but it became particulate at that point in
34:13
Speaker 1: time and came apart. And again this is just like
34:16
Speaker 1: the project out. This is a testament to how effective
34:20
Speaker 1: these investigators were. And I'm talking about the crime scene investigators.
34:23
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about detectives. I'm talking about the crime
34:25
Speaker 1: scene investigators, the people from the medical exam or how
34:29
Speaker 1: tenacious they were at the scene as they recovered that
34:33
Speaker 1: many pieces of the skull around the body and they
34:37
Speaker 1: were able to bring that in and if they hadn't
34:39
Speaker 1: done that. If they hadn't done that where they could
34:41
Speaker 1: take it reconstructed essentially, or put it back together as
34:45
Speaker 1: best they could with what they had left, you wouldn't
34:49
Speaker 1: have the answers to this. You wouldn't know that it
34:51
Speaker 1: was from left to right and from the temporal bone
34:54
Speaker 1: to the parietal bone and the pitch of it and
34:57
Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. So they did a bang
34:59
Speaker 1: up job with this. One more point that I found
35:03
Speaker 1: very interesting in this report, Joe, is the fact that
35:07
Speaker 1: the entrance wound is on the left side of Brian
35:11
Speaker 1: Laundry's skull. If I am not mistaken, Brian Laundry was
35:16
Speaker 1: right handed. Yeah, it's something. And I've heard several people
35:20
Speaker 1: kind of offer up opinions about this and the sort
35:24
Speaker 1: of thing, people that are hand supposed handgun experts and
35:28
Speaker 1: all this. And you know, I don't have an explanation
35:30
Speaker 1: for that. I wish I did, I just don't. It's
35:34
Speaker 1: it's from an investigative standpoint, it's interesting to me. I
35:39
Speaker 1: think that my next question would be, and trust me,
35:43
Speaker 1: when I hear things like this, I don't if I
35:45
Speaker 1: hear hoofbeats, I don't automatically think that zebra. Okay, I'm
35:49
Speaker 1: going to think horse. So with this I would want
35:52
Speaker 1: to explore it further. The first question I would ask
35:55
Speaker 1: his loved ones and the people in his immediate circle
35:59
Speaker 1: was ambidextrious, you know, did he use both his left
36:02
Speaker 1: and right hand? And then that that kind of explained
36:07
Speaker 1: some things. I don't know. Maybe he only felt comfortable
36:11
Speaker 1: holding this weapon in his left hand. I don't know.
36:15
Speaker 1: I guess you can imply that there's something maybe ominous
36:18
Speaker 1: with that that maybe, you know, people might think that
36:23
Speaker 1: someone else was holding a weapon as opposed to him.
36:26
Speaker 1: I can't answer that, and I don't know that anybody
36:29
Speaker 1: could from a forensics standpoint. Okay, that's that's a question
36:33
Speaker 1: that would have to be explored further by law enforcement.
36:37
Speaker 1: But yeah, it is certainly an interesting point of order.
36:39
Speaker 1: I think when you begin to think, you do you
36:42
Speaker 1: know he's right handed, and that's been definitively stated that
36:47
Speaker 1: he's done everything with his right hand throughout his life. So,
36:50
Speaker 1: you know, I think as a scientist, we would want
36:53
Speaker 1: to ask, well, why suddenly, at this moment in time,
36:55
Speaker 1: did he decide to end his life with his left hand.
37:18
Speaker 1: It's very important that you know that these remains have
37:20
Speaker 1: been recovered in that we can learn so much I
37:23
Speaker 1: think probably from the physical presentation of Brian Launder's remains.
37:28
Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lasting question that will
37:32
Speaker 1: I don't know, ever be sufficiently answered. But you have
37:36
Speaker 1: to ask, what exactly does the scene tell us about
37:40
Speaker 1: what went on in the Carling Reserve, Joe. We know
37:44
Speaker 1: on the scene among the things that were recovered besides
37:48
Speaker 1: the bones was a backpack and the shoes been along
37:52
Speaker 1: into brian laundry. There was a pair of a green shorts,
37:56
Speaker 1: a green belt to slip on shoes, a backpack, a
38:00
Speaker 1: white metal ring, and the handgun. But in addition to
38:04
Speaker 1: this joke, there was a second scene that included some
38:08
Speaker 1: animal remains, a handwritten note and a hat, and that
38:14
Speaker 1: dry bag that we have talked about so often that
38:17
Speaker 1: had the journal inside. You know, one of the most
38:19
Speaker 1: fascinating things about being a death investigator, Jackie, is fact
38:24
Speaker 1: that we we see the end, if you will, physically
38:30
Speaker 1: of an individual all that remains, if you will. But
38:35
Speaker 1: there's a lot that we kind of learn about what
38:38
Speaker 1: was going on relative to an individual at the moment
38:42
Speaker 1: time or close approximating the moment time when they took
38:45
Speaker 1: their life, you know, what were the last activities that
38:48
Speaker 1: they were engaged in, you know, what were they surrounded by?
38:52
Speaker 1: What was environment like? And I have no doubt that
38:56
Speaker 1: out there in the Carlton Reserve, out there, in that
38:58
Speaker 1: thick thick, in that wet environment, that they recovered quite
39:04
Speaker 1: a bit. I think that obviously many people are very
39:07
Speaker 1: interested in this note. And you know, one of the
39:10
Speaker 1: things that kind of came out in these reports was
39:12
Speaker 1: that it was a partial note. And I don't know
39:16
Speaker 1: really how to define that. I'm hoping that the authorities
39:20
Speaker 1: will add some clarity to that because I don't know.
39:24
Speaker 1: I don't know if it means that the note was
39:27
Speaker 1: partially written and then he just kind of trailed off
39:29
Speaker 1: and didn't finish a sentence. I don't know what that means.
39:33
Speaker 1: But they have established that the notebook was there, that
39:37
Speaker 1: had a note, and that you know, this dry bag
39:40
Speaker 1: that has been speculated about for some time that was
39:43
Speaker 1: physically there as well. But you know, I think probably
39:47
Speaker 1: one of the most poignant things for me, Jackie that
39:50
Speaker 1: kind of really struck a chord with me, not just
39:56
Speaker 1: you know, as an investigator, but as a father, was
40:04
Speaker 1: the fact that at the scene they recovered a red
40:08
Speaker 1: hat and that had had the words Moab Coffee Roasters
40:16
Speaker 1: written on it. And when I read that and contained
40:22
Speaker 1: in the scientific report, and it would seem that it's
40:26
Speaker 1: just kind of this innocuous thing that, you know, you
40:29
Speaker 1: just happen to find it a scene. All I could
40:32
Speaker 1: do at that moment, Tom was reflect back to a
40:39
Speaker 1: young girl on the side of the road, weeping, her
40:46
Speaker 1: in this circumstance that she suddenly found herself in that
40:49
Speaker 1: she probably didn't want to be in anymore, you know,
40:53
Speaker 1: because we've talked a lot about Brian Laundry, and god
40:57
Speaker 1: knows a lot has been written about him, had I mean,
41:00
Speaker 1: we've got five scientific reports we're talking about today, but
41:04
Speaker 1: you know, we haven't mentioned Gabby's name. I'll be damned,
41:08
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this podcast today without mentioning Gabby
41:11
Speaker 1: Petito's name, because at the end of the day, that's
41:14
Speaker 1: what this is about. The fact that she was out
41:17
Speaker 1: on the side of that road and Brian Laundry had
41:20
Speaker 1: a hat with him, Jackie, and that hat actually had
41:24
Speaker 1: the words Moab Coffee Roasters shot on it. And let's
41:28
Speaker 1: think back to what Moab, What significance there was to Moab.
41:33
Speaker 1: That's at that moment in time when many people felt
41:35
Speaker 1: like that if another path had been taken, this young
41:40
Speaker 1: girl would still be with us. And you know, I
41:45
Speaker 1: think she's ablemack of a lot of a lot of
41:47
Speaker 1: young women across the country, you know, that are in
41:49
Speaker 1: these terrible relationships and no one knows and if they
41:53
Speaker 1: just taken another path. But that the Moab coffee roaster's
41:57
Speaker 1: hat that was there, it had a significance to me
42:01
Speaker 1: that went beyond just its evidentially value. It was kind
42:05
Speaker 1: of this benchmark moment. And I can only imagine these investigators,
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Speaker 1: these investigators out there, it's seen knew what that hat
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Speaker 1: meant when they saw it. It's not just something that
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Speaker 1: you know, he arbitrarily said, oh well, I've got five
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Speaker 1: different baseball caps I'm going to grab and where it.
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Speaker 1: He wore that hat out there. He knew what had
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Speaker 1: happened in Moab, and it was that one moment in time.
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Speaker 1: It was that one moment in time when life could
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Speaker 1: have changed, but it wound up in this It wound
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Speaker 1: up with a young girl that was found brutally throttled
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Speaker 1: to death out in the wilderness. Of a place that
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Speaker 1: she had never lived, she'd probably never been to before,
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Speaker 1: dying all alonge with out there, out there, with nobody
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Speaker 1: around her that truly loved her, and another young man
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Speaker 1: decomposing in the swamp after he ends his own life.
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Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know how much more we
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Speaker 1: can really make of it. The science, I think is great,
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Speaker 1: but the science doesn't really do it justice, does it
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Speaker 1: relative to what she endured for I don't know that
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Speaker 1: road trip that they took, and Lord knows for how
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Speaker 1: many weeks proceeding, maybe even months proceeding that faithful day.
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Speaker 1: I've Joseph S. Gott Morgan and this is body backs