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Lizzie Borden · A Really Good Podcast with Greg & Liz

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Lizzie Gordon took a wax.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Gave her mother forty wax.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or did she?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of a really good podcast with Greg and Liz.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: And today's episode, I don't want to say the topic is near and dear to my heart, because that's a weird way to describe a murder.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know, you know how like the ties that bind between you and somebody that has your name.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Not really Greg Gumble.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't have much.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying to think of Greg Luganus.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you how many times I've looked up Elizabeth, New Jersey on a map because it had my name.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So like Lizzie Borden, as twisted as the subject matter was, I always felt a little bit of a kinship towards it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know what makes me feel a kinship for it?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: The true crime element that we saw.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Even with the O.J.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Simpson trial, where it's like obviously a century previous, it's sort of a lot of the same themes though, where it's like they had this dream team lawyers.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're both kind of socialites in a sense.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: They have like high standing in society.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like unprecedented because to have this famous professional football player commit a murder is kind of along the same lines as to have a young woman.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't even have a place to put like a young, upstanding, god-fearing woman in 1892 in prison.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like they didn't really have a place for it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like all new territory on both sides of things.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because O.J.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Simpson was beloved.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this board was kind of I don't know if she was beloved.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Beloved?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: The boardens seemed like a bunch of weirdos.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: They were a bunch of weirdos.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not your original entrance into this story, though, right?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's little poem or the little Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: The little poem.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is not factually accurate, but I found out.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's overkill.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: First and foremost, I didn't know it wasn't her actual mom.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, mom's dead and gone.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think adding the stepmother element into it kind of makes it a little bit of a horse of a different color.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: It makes it creepier in one way.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: It makes it like I kind of get it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: The parents kind of well, there is always the tumultuous.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: But since she was five, stepmother.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like she's, you know, the mother dies and and Lizzie had this great connection with her, and now here in comes this young bombshell.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's not the case at all.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bombshell enters the villa.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but the thing that I thought was interesting about it is a lot of the things they kept bringing up as kind of a almost not a smoking gun, but almost like a clue into how much she didn't get along with her is that they kept referring to her as her mom in the investigation, and she kept saying, That's not my mom, that's my stepmom.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, speaking as someone who had a stepmom, we were fine, you know, like we had one.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're divorced now.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So then you just she's just not your stepmom anymore.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: She's just nobody to me anymore.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, granted, I was 27, she was only nine years older than me, so like it wasn't a, you know, a typical, it wasn't like I we had to live together or anything like that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: But if somebody kept calling her my mom, I'd be like, She's not my mom.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have a mom, you know.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So like I didn't find that to be that weird that she had this not tense relationship.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: But if I was your lawyer and you were doing that court, I'd be like, time and a place.
• 3:03
  unknown: You know what I mean?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's like you gotta kind of like be aware, you know.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so should we get into the background of it all?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do that.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So Lizzie Andrew Borden was born on July 19th, 1860 in Fall River, Massachusetts.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, coming from a family the middle name.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: The middle name, I kind of like it.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: My father's middle name is Amy.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Paul Amy Charpentier.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's like, you know, maybe I have a kinship with that, but my father will lie up and down about what his middle name is.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: He'll say all five.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: He'll say it's like a me.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, it's a me, yeah.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's the most French way to say it ever, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you're it's a me, I'm a um, but it's also her mother was Sarah Anthony Borden, and her father was Andrew Jackson Borden, so that's an interesting trio of names right there.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: She had an older sister, Emma, who was born in 1851, so she was nine years older than her, and then she actually had another sister who died before Lizzie was born when she was two years old.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Her mother, Sarah, died when Lizzie was two and a half, and three years later, Andrew married Abby Durfee Gray, who was a spinster.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, spinster.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: She's in her 30s and she's not married.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Decrepit.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: One foot in the grave.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's like she wasn't really a catch.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, she wasn't a catch.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: But either was he.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because he had some baggage.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: The general consensus is they did not get along.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Lizzie actually referred to her as Mrs.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Borden, which is kind of hilarious.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: What an 1860s dig.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like And people were like, that Lizzie too, what a looker.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then you look at pictures and you're like, E.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: A handsome woman.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: She believed that Abby married him for his wealth, which lol, because he was a cheap motherfucker.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: He grew up in modest surroundings, even though he actually his family did have a lot of money.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he kind of like turned that into what he did with Lizzie and her sister because he ended up doing really well.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: He actually started out in the furniture and casket industry, foreshadowing.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then he found success as a property developer and eventually became the president of the Union Savings Bank.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: At the time of his murder, his estate was valued at$300,000, which is$10 million in 2020.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: He was loaded.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they're and they're they're going to the bathroom outside.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: You refuse modern conveniences, no indoor plumbing, no electricity, which that was all pretty normal at the time.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't have been.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, normal for like the vast majority of people, but if if you're wealthy, I mean there is access to indoor plumbing and and electricity at this time.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And like people in Fall River are living that way, just minutes away.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in the fashionable neighborhood called the Hill, which is funny because in my head, I've always pictured this as being kind of a little house on the prairie type situation.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, this is like city life.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is city life.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of pictured it like the way they talk about the house, I always pictured it just in some little town.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-mm.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: But she's like walking around in those, like it's very like Victorian almost.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, like everyone's hot and smelly.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they did have a live in maid though named Bridget Sullivan, though they called her Maggie for some reason, which I couldn't figure out why.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody mentioned it may have been like a not a slur, but like derogatory a little bit.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the whole time she's like, that's not my name, but what's it?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's not my name.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my name.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So Lizzie and her older sister had relatively religious upbringing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: They attended Central Congregational Church, which still exists today.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: As a young woman, she was very involved in church activities.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: She taught Sunday school to children of recent immigrants.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: She was involved in religious organizations and contemporary social movements.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't really sound like somebody who would be a serial killer, but like, is she a serial killer?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you have to be more than three people, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know what the rules are.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she hasn't been convicted of anything, so that's right.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Allegedly.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Alleged.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So but the thing about the Lizzie and the sister, it's like, first of all, ride or die.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Until the end.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: They actually had a falling out at the end.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: But no one ever said, like, no one the truth never really came out.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: But what's interesting is like both unmarried.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Spinsters, too.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Spinsters, still living with the parents in their 30s and 40s.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: You think that they wouldn't have a little better relationship with Mrs.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Borden, you know, because they're kind of like similar trajectories up until this point.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm also thinking to myself, lesbians?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that comes up actually.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are a few theories about them being lesbians, but I don't know.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things they said is that they were also incredibly isolated.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So their father wouldn't really let them went on one trip to Europe, which seems like that's pretty good.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: The dad dropped out of school and everything, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they dropped out of school.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: They really didn't leave the house except to do religious things.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta think there's something extra weird going on with the dad.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there is some kind of weird stuff going on inside the house.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's the mom died?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I was thinking this, and maybe this is a little too dark.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: The mom died very early.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: The dad's still young.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any abuse?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't well, that's also a theory, but they they said that there was no proof of anything like that.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't just speculate, but she did murder hit him in the face with an action.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's not that's not something you do when you have a good relationship.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: The thing was, if there was any kind of incest, you know, physical abuse, sexual abuse, anything like that, it's not something that would have been talked about at that time.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there would have been obviously no proof.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: It would have literally came up in court, and we'll see with other things too.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the judge would have been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're not, let's not go there.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let's keep this, you know.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I will say though, the thing about it was that if you didn't get married, a woman in her 30s or 40s was not moving out on her own.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: That was completely unheard of.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, as long as they weren't married, what other options did they have?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: To that, I say, maybe I'd kill someone too.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if I'm living with my parents, I'm 40 years old, my dad won't let me leave the house, I'm pooping in a pail, you know, outside.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I'm wiping with like hundred dollar bills for whatever reason, but I'm pooping in a pail.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's very confusing.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So tensions start to grow.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Andrew, for some reason, he's stingy with the kids, but he's gifting Abby's family a bunch of real estate left and right, and the girls are pissed about it, which understandably, if I'm holding candles and can't turn on electricity, and he's given a house to Abby's sister.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like why does Abby's sister have access to dad's wealth and I'm sitting here, I want to do all my things with the pets.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want to like I have all these interests, I want to get out.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: But she I mean he does concede, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't he like sort of give them both a a house too?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: He gives them a house together.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a house that they grew up in until their mom died, and he sells it to them for a dollar, and then a few weeks later they sell it back to him for five thousand dollars, which is$171,000.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but like why just I think he wanted to I think Andrew maybe in the house is like, there is just so much stress in this house.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's hot.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a house.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Fine.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give to it and then I'll buy it back from you.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, why not just give them five?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have some money.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can't go anywhere, you can't do anything, but we'll make this work.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So in May 1892, Andrew kills multiple pigeons in the barn with a hatchet, believing they were attracting local children to hunt them.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Lizzie had recently built a roost for the pigeons, and it's very commonly recounted that she was incredibly upset over his killing of them.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Which, like, that's weird.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're worried about the kids, but like you're going in with a hatchet and beheading a bunch of birds.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's weird.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's strange behavior.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: But is that maybe normal for the time?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like kind of like killing rats.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: But do you dictate rats?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Killing rats instead of just getting rat traps, you're going and you're like pulling their legs off.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: It does have a lot to do with how you do it.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: You're right.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: You're bringing up a good point here.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I murdered rats.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Even the way you say it, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta go murder rats out.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: But like what options do they have at that time to kill birds?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean throwing shit at it?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Stones.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Kill two birds with one stone.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but like stoning birds doesn't sound great either.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Something to do.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's something to do.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Around this time, the family has a break-in.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very suspicious break-in because all that was missing was some money and jewelry, but nothing else was disturbed, meaning it was like whoever did it knew where to go and what to do.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it was like missboard and stuff.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like it was like$50, which I don't know how much that is.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But after a few weeks, the dad calls the police and requests that they call the investigation off, which you wouldn't do unless you knew who it was.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then at this point, he starts locking all the rooms in the house, but would leave the key out on the dining room table.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it was almost like he's doing it to prove a point to whoever it is.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sending a message to you.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not actually doing this to lock you out of these rooms.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing this to tell you like I know what's going on.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I know that it's one of you.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's we really know it's you, Lizzie.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, also because Lizzie was a well-established shoplifter.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: She used to go into town and she would shoplift all the time.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, this is, you know, from what I could gather, this is like in her 20s.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a 10-year-old going in.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it was kind of a like, oh, Lizzie.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And they would just send the dad a bill and so it's like what happened was she's committing crimes and completely getting away with it because of her status.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that follows her into the future.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, sorry, all right, I want to get rid of my father, I'm gonna off him.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's antisocial.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Allegedly, right.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: What she's doing, stealing and having no sort of empathy, poisoning, I think that's probably gonna come up too.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's definitely like a part of antisocial personality disorder, which is typically found in males, but can definitely be found in women, and maybe there's like a little bit of a borderline thing here too.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: But the real thing is it's like that not being corrected in her 20s leads her to sort of have this frame of mind where like, oh, I can do things that please me and get away with them.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if I kill these people, I'm going to get away with it.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And she's right.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And she's right.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: If she did it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: If she did it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Although, I mean, it's the same thing.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: We were just talking about this a couple weeks ago.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember which episode about the worst thing you can do is be born to someone rich and have zero accountability.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're growing up and you can kind of get away with whatever you want and then kind of become a monster.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can become a monster.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like to develop empathy, you kind of have to struggle a little bit, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, for sure.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, felt similar situations and emotions.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and even if you do have your head in the right place, you are a good person, there's still things you fundamentally just don't understand how to do.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: So in July 1892, they have a family argument.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't figure out what it was actually about, but the odds are it was probably about money.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Both Lizzie and Emma take extended vacations to New Bedford, which is right, hop, skip, and a jump away.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: A week before the murders, they return to Fall River, but Lizzie chooses to stay in a local rooming house before returning to the Borden residence.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: You couldn't think of this in terms of, you know, son of Sam in the 70s.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Tensions are high in the family.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's July.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: They're wearing huge wool dresses.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you, there's no air conditioning.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: It smells, it's the Industrial Revolution, it's Fall River.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much going on here that and it's almost natural for something like this to kind of just spill over into craziness.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: That to just pop off.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's about to pop off.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's about to pop off.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: For several days before the murders, the entire household gets violently ill.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: A family friend later speculated that mutton left on the stove to use in the meals over several days was the cause, which they didn't have no fridges.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, like maybe.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, isn't that just how the food was?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like is it the old mutton?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Did you just not eat leftovers at that point?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Abby had feared that there was poison in their bread, given that Andrew was not a popular man in Fall River.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine why.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: He seems like a real gem.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Miserly.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he does.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: He seems like a little bit Scrooge-ish.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So the night before the murders, John Vinicum Morse, Lizzie and Emma's maternal uncle, so the brother of their biological mother, visited and was invited to stay for a few days to discuss business matters with Andrew, leading to speculation that their conversation, particularly about property transfer, may have aggravated an already tense situation.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And from what I gathered, he didn't really have much of a relationship with the family.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was mostly a business relationship after the mom died.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a little bit, it wasn't like a super familial relationship.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Morse arrives the evening of August 3rd and sleeps in the guest room that night.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: After breakfast the next morning, Andrew and Morse went to the sitting room where they chatted for nearly an hour.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Morse left around 8 48 a.m.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: to buy a pair of oxen.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's so Oregon Trail.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's City too, which is crazy.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And visit his niece in Fall River, planning to return to the boarding home for lunch at noon.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Andrew left for his morning walk sometime after 9 a.m.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Although the cleaning of the guest room was one of Lizzie and Emma's regular chores, Abby went upstairs sometime between 9 and 10 30 a.m.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: to make the bed.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: According to forensic investigation, Abby was facing her killer at the time of the attack.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning whoever it was had to already be upstairs in the bedroom.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of like 1892 scream.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Inside the house.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: She was first struck on the side of the head with the hatchet, which caught her just above the air, causing her to turn and fall face down on the floor.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Her killer then struck her multiple times, delivering 17 more direct hits the back of her head, killing her.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So not 40 wax.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: 18.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And also wasn't her mom.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they were lying left and right here.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that though?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was I was just thinking about this when we did our episode on the 4th of July, and it was actually the 2nd of July, which doesn't like roll off the tongue.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that they chose 40 wax because it just like sounded better?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Could 20 work though?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: 20 would have been fine.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: 20 would have been fine.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So like maybe we didn't need to exaggerate by more than double.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and plus, like, she actually gave her father less wax than others.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of really off on the story, too.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: But there's also this thing where people during the trial are like, hey, there's how come no one heard anything?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's like axe first of all, it's not even an axe, it's a hatchet, which you know, it's a small axe.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: But the thing is, yeah, you're not gonna hear things because you stop screaming when you get hit in the face with an axe real quick.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if they weren't expected, you know, they didn't like see the person.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Did you look at the pictures of the father?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why would I do that?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: He's just kind of like flopped on the couch, like.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can't even like tell he has a face, right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's r a lot of face shots.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: So 18.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which is personal, which feels personal.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's very personal.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like stop talking.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's very like, I'm gonna get rid of this thing that's been causing me so much stress and and pain all these years.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, just stop talking.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're done now.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we're I'm sick of your shit.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's an I'm sick of your shit.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you just were breaking into the house, which it doesn't appear that they had much to break in for anyway, on the off chance that's what it is, you just get them quiet.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's the rage of making sure they're shut up forever and really destroyed.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: The axe was broken.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: You broke an axe in someone's face.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Jeez.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So Andrew returns at 10 30 a.m.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: His key fails to open the door, so he knocks.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Bridget goes to unlock the door, finds it jammed, she utters a curse, and later testifies that she heard Lizzie laughing immediately after this.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: She did not see her, but stated the laughter is coming from the top of the stairs.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: This was considered significant as Abby was already dead at this time and her body would have been visible to anyone on the home's second floor.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Lizzie later denied being upstairs and testified that her father had asked her where Abby was, to which she replied that the messenger had delivered Abby a summons to visit a sick friend.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which this is interesting because this comes up later, where if there was a note, first of all, they don't know of a sick friend that she would have been able to, she would have been visiting.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, if there was a note, where is it?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not well thought out.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, why would Lizzie be the only person that would know about it?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: So is the sister in your mind in on this?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll get to that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I am gonna go through all the different suspects at the end.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So Bridget stated that she had then removed Andrew's boots and helped him into his slippers before he laid down on the sofa for a nap, a detail contradicted by crime scene photos which show Andrew wearing boots.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So is the maid in on it?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: The maid, it does come back around to the maid a few times, which we will get into.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I yeah, we will get into it because I do feel like there's people involved.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: All roads lead back to the maid.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's like a few different suspects.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: So Bridget said she was in her third floor room resting from cleaning the windows when just before 11 10 a.m.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: she heard Lizzie call from downstairs.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Maggie, come quick, father's dead.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody came in and killed him.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which is that's a very lucid would be the I know it's not like whole, oh my god, oh my god, you know what I mean?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, like come quick, father's dead.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody killed like they're you're already like putting out your story right there.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Father's dead.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Father's dead.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So he had was slumped on the couch, one of his eyes had been split cleanly in two, suggesting he'd been asleep unattacked, which I take a little bit personally because I am a big napper and that's my worst nightmare.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I cut in half.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's a sharp axe.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a sharp axe, but uh also why does that mean he was napping?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you they can't do that if he's awake.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, maybe because your eyes would be like turned, you would be looking in a different direction.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good that that's not bad work.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So Dr.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Bowen, the family's physician, arrives from his home across the street and pronounces both victims dead.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh they estimate his dead occurred at approximately 11 a.m.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Which means if Abby was killed at 9 a.m., either it was somebody that was in the household presently, which would be Lizzie or the maid, or whoever it was waited upstairs for almost two hours and then came downstairs, snuck downstairs in between the two girls.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, excuse me.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Killed him just coming through and then killed him, which seems unlikely.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't my house, though.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, and what a doctor to make that call, huh?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, yeah, we know he's dead uh on account of the axe wounds to the face.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I don't think we need to take the pulse here.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't want to go back to the the photos, but it's like I think that there's a p like if you go to the you can stay in this, it's still kind of exactly the way it was in Fall River, and you could stay there as like a bed and breakfast, which is awesome.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would not do that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Same furniture.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well I you know, it's funny because I did stay in a a bed and breakfast that wasn't claiming to be haunted at all.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: And there was like that old Victorian picture of like a woman with like the little choker, little pearl whatever necklace.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I was up looking at that all night.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I I get scared of my own house that was built in like 1997.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I almost turned it around on the wall, but this is a fun little tie-in to Warwick, Rhode Island.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: There were fewer officers around than normal that day because a bunch of them were 30 miles away attending a barbecue at Rocky Point Amusement Park.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the locals knew about this, including Lizzie.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it would have been a good time to take advantage of the fact that there weren't a lot of police officers around.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Always comes back to Rocky Point.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: It really does.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: One of the smoking guns the prosecution and historians depend on to prove that she did it is her demeanor during a lot of these interviews.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: She's very closed off, she acts strange, she's mixing up her stories.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: For example, she's saying she heard a groan before entering the house, then saying she heard nothing two hours later.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: When they asked where her stepmother was, she recounted Abby receiving the note, but there was no verification of it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: She couldn't say who the person was.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the officers who interviewed Lizzie reported they disliked her attitude.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Some said she was too calm and poised.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: What they failed to mention is she was also given a sedative immediately following the murder.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And which is something that the lawyers will use to kind of get her off.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that she was a little drugged up.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I actually just read this article about this man who is on death row.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And a big part of the reason why he was convicted is because he brought his daughter in after she had died or was sick or whatever, she had an accident, and he was strangely calm.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this was in like the 70s or whatever, before they really like understood a lot of this stuff.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it turns out they've recently found out that he's autistic.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and is it is he wasn't showing the proper emotions.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't showing the proper emotions in that.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking that like it could also be for a long time you have this idea of how a victim should act, how somebody should act when they're in these situations.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And now we know obviously.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe the maid, your thing is, took advantage of the autistic sisters.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I didn't say they were both autistic.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they could certainly could they certainly could be, but also that could explain how you end up being in your 30s and social skills are like you know, isolated, you're you're not going out anywhere.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you don't have the resources to understand what is different about the way that your brain works.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Not to say that autism is limiting at all, because the richest person in the world is autistic.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's a social deficit.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: It could definitely you could see how somebody going in and not acting the proper way.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you're going on a date and like she's just not getting any of your jokes.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: She's taking them all very literally, and you're like, come on, Lizzie.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, come on.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So despite her behavior and changing alibis, she was not checked for blood stains.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: The police did search her room, but it was a cursory inspection.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: At the trial, they admitted to not doing a proper search because Lizzie was not feeling well.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And also it was improper to search through a lady's belongings.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there's something interesting about this little run-in with the police in this moment because they did see her clothes that she was wearing at the time, and they were absolutely covered in blood.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she said it was paint.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it wasn't.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: So here's the thing though, like, oh, it's red paint.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're gonna be like, oh, first of all, you're a copy gonna be like, oh, that checks out.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And also, there is one sort of line of questioning where the police officer says, like, well, can we check out those clothes?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, Well, they might have some blood on them because I'm experiencing even I'm having a hard time.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Menstrual.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: But it so the cop is like, yeah, you know what?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: That okay, we're gonna leave that be.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like she has her periods.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: You took it, she took advantage of like 1892 Victorian decorum.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and like, oh women, there's that just doesn't exist.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like they don't want to know.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: There is actually a theory that ties into her having her period that I will get into shortly.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: But normalized talking about periods, even as a grown man, it's fine.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta go back and read um what is it?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like the Are you there, goddess me, Margaret?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So in the basement, police found two hatchets, two axes, and a hatchet head with a broken handle.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: The hatchet head was suspected of being the murder weapon, as the break in the handle appeared fresh, and it appeared as though the ash and the dust on the head had been put on there to look as though it had been in the basement for some time.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: However, none of the tools were removed from the house.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: They did remove the family's milk and the victim's stomachs to test for poison.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: None was found.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: They also boiled their skin off.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I saw that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: When they didn't they exume the bodies?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: They exhumed the bodies to boil the skin off to see like the trajectory of the hatchets and what kind of access it was.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that the technology was up to bat for that.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: But they were just like, it looks bad.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: There was word on the street that she had tried to purchase hydrocyanic acid in diluted form from the local druggist the day before the murders.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: The defense said she inquired about the acid in order to clean her furs.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Despite the local medical examiner's testimony, it did not have antiseptic properties, which I don't know what they're talking about.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I use it to clean my lawyers all the time.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Her lawyer has got that thrown out too, though.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, also, one of the things they said was the differences in the in the way that the crimes were committed, so from poison to a hatchet to the face, were so different that it like wasn't relevant, which is crazy.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like if you're gonna murder somebody, you're probably you're dipping your toe in a few different things.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, like in 1890, you probably eat some poison.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're eating old mutton, you can handle some poison.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe she had to eat.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they said that like perhaps there's a chance that she had been like slowly poisoning everybody, and then finally it was like, all right, this isn't pocket mortgaging.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I just gotta pull the trigger here.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Not literally.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Lizzie and Emma's friend Alice Russell decided to stay the night with the sisters the night following the murders, while Morse, their uncle, spent the night in the attic guest room.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Police were stationed around the house on the night of August 4th, during which time an officer said he had seen Lizzie enter the cellar with Russell carrying a kerosene lamp and a slot pail.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: He then saw both women exit the cellar, after which Lizzie returned alone and was unable to see what she was doing, but appeared she was bent over the sink.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like they really are just phoning in this investigation.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: The following day, they inspect the house more thoroughly, take the clothing, confiscate the broken-handled hatchet head, and it's at this point that they inform Lizzie that she is a suspect in the murders.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Lizzie appears at an inquest hearing on August 8th.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this is what, like less than a week after the murders.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Things move quick.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Her request to have her family attorney present was refused under a state statute, proving that the inquest must be held in private.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: She ended up getting like a dream team, though.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I know, and that's like they're great.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like even when you mentioned the the morphine that was given her, it's like everything that Lizzie was was weird about Lizzie when the cops got there, like she was just being all weird and like kind of like didn't give a shit.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's all gone because you guys gave her morphine.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: So and that kind of checks out a little bit.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have to think about these aren't people that are like getting fucked up every weekend.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is somebody who's probably had a few glasses of wine, and like you don't have the tolerance to handle something like morphine.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, you know what?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I'm handling this better than I thought I would.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is great.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you something else, her buying poison, they get that thrown out too.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's wild.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they were pulling out all the stuff.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: They did some work.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: They did some work.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: On August 11th, Lizzie was served with a warrant of arrest and jailed.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: They based it a lot on like her erratic behavior when she was on the morphine during the inquest.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: She was contradicting herself.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: She was providing alternate accounts.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was saying she was in the kitchen reading a magazine when her father arrived home, and then she was in the dining room doing ironing, and then she was coming down the stairs.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: But like I couldn't I mean, I don't know.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like she was probably kind of fucked up.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, no, I also think it's like it does say something, I don't know what, that she had the presence of mind despite being high on morphine to not say, Oh yeah, I did this.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or like whatever, you know what I mean?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: But due to the instability of the inquest testimony, it was thrown out and inadmissible in her trial.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: It received significant nationwide attention.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this had to be a huge like, yeah, this is a this is a huge story.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then the grand jury begins hearing evidence on November 7th, and Borden was indicted on December 2nd.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Her trial takes place in New Bedford starting on June 5th, 1893, meaning she was in jail for almost a year at this point.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Which that's kind of fucked up.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if she didn't do it, like that's fucking It's fucked up if she didn't do it, yeah.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's fucked up.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: A prominent point of discussion in the trial was the hatchet head found in the basement, which was not convincingly demonstrated by the prosecution to be the murder weapon.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: So this actually is very similar to the O.J.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Simpson case.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: The prosecutors just like couldn't pull it together.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like they just have like a bowl full of like a crushed skull and they're like, look, it doesn't even match.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's kind of like what's going on here.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And also, like, the the coverage is crazy.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, OJ had the the benefit of cable news and like their you know, 24-hour news cycle.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: This, new as it was, but this is like the people all over the country are interested in this, and they have to like wait for the paper to come out every day to be like, what the fuck happened with Lizzie?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: What is this Lizzie Borden?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this woman, yeah, socialite, yeah, brutally murdered her quote unquote mother and father.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then like one of the rich people, fucking rich people, honestly.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the officers testifies that a hatchet handle was found near the hatchet head.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Another officer contradicted this.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Russell, Lizzie's friend, testifies that she had witnessed Lizzie's burn address in the kitchen stove saying it was ruined when she brushed against wet paint.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: The defense never attempted to challenge this statement.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And on the night before the murders, Lizzie told Alice that she feared that some unidentified enemy of her father's might soon try to kill him.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's she's laying the groundwork.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: She's laying the groundwork.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: She's planting the seed.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: There was also, you know, her presence in the home was a point of dispute during the trial.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: According to the testimony, Sullivan entered the second floor around 10:58 a.m.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: and left Lizzie and her father downstairs.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Lizzie told people she was in the barn and was not in the house for 20 minutes or possibly half an hour.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Although they said they went to the barn and it was so hot out at this point that it was so stifling in there, you like couldn't have even been in there for that long.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that really didn't make a lot of sense.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: So both of the victims' heads had been removed during the autopsy and the skulls were admitted as evidence during the trial.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Upon seeing them in the courtroom, Lizzie fainted, which people are like, oh, she didn't faint after she found him dead.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I don't know.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the presiding associate justice, Justin Dewey, delivered a lengthy summary that supported the defenses as his charge to the jury before it was sent to deliberate on June 20th, 1893.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, one of the judges, I guess that's what's a presiding associate justice, I'm assuming that's one of the judges in the case, basically wrote this whole long speech in support of the defense.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Come to find out, the judge that did that had been appointed by the former Massachusetts governor George Robinson, who also happened to be one of Lizzie's lawyers.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: The connections.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is exactly this is exactly how.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I did it.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go through the perpetrators and see who we kind of think.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna lay out why they think that each person could have possibly And then we'll decide.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like as a homage to Clue.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'll each make our final guesses.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we got first and foremost Lizzie Borden.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: She was acquitted.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: She still remains the top suspect of the murders.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Some theories as ranged wise.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: She was physically andor sexually abused by her father.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: There is no proof of this, but as we said, there wouldn't have been at the time.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: She was a lesbian who was caught by Abby having an affair with Bridget and murdered both her and her father to keep the secret.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: She was also rumored to be a lesbian later in life.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: There were a few different women that she was rumored to be to dabble with.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean Whatever.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's my favorite theory.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, I I don't like the abuse.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think both could be true.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like that early abuse could have maybe been like, well, I'm I fear men, and maybe that pushes her into sexual relationships.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, who knows?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: We can talk about that forever.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So some writers have proposed that she may have committed the murders in a is it fugue state?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a dissociative fugues.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there are actually reports that she was epileptic, and there it is speculated that she may have had a condition known as catamenial epilepsy or menstruation epilepsy, which is believed to put women women in almost like a little bit of a psychosis when the epilepsy coincides with their period.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I know more than one person who actually has to go on medication because their mental state is so deteriorated when they have PMS.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that's now when like you have all this information.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: So Lord only knows what could be happening.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like oh yeah, and then how do you yeah, how do you explain something like that?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: So then up next we have Emma Borden, the older sister.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Emma has an airtight alibi at Fairhaven, which is about 50 miles from Fall River.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they believe that she may have gone there, shown she was there, but was able to get back in time to receive the telegram.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: So like she kind of like got there, established her alibi, came back, murdered the parents, and then made it back in time to receive the telegram.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: The motive is kind of the same as Lizzie's little bit, the desire to inherit all of Mr.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Borden's estate, which they did, you know, and the resentment over the financial arrangements that Mr.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Borden made for his second wife.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of this that like Emma was almost like the mother hen, you know, she lost her mother very young, she lost a sister very young.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which is all traumatic.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Which is all traumatic, and kind of came up with this plan.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then Emma and Lizzie got their inheritance after she was acquitted, and they bought this beautiful bake out.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of similar to the Menendez brothers, which we've obviously spent in.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, it's been in, which to be fair, I mean you've been through a lot.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Donating a lot too.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: So she would become beloved in a sense.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, to an extent, I think.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: She gave a lot back.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's this kind of like, who knows?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: They ended up living together for the rest of their lives until they had a falling out later in life.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know exactly when the falling out was, but they actually died a week apart.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Except quite different.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly the same.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly the same.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now we get to Bridget, parentheses, Maggie Sullivan, the maid.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: There is speculation that she perpetrated the murders because she was mistreated by her employers and that she hacked them to death as a result of being pissed that she was asked to wash the windows on such a hot day.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Which, like, that's your job.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that seems inappropriate.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's debunked because it's like, why wouldn't you just quit?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't have to be there.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a slave.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's true, but maybe you need I need this job.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: But well, killing them isn't gonna get you anywhere because she's not even getting an inheritance.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: So leaving leaving in a good place with your employers is probably.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: What if it's like so now I'm like kind of the three are talking?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think the three are like kind of talking, and they're like, you know, if we get this done, Maggie's gonna get a raise, yeah, and we're gonna just be spending and except she ended up quitting after all of this and moving.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: She ends up moving uh outside of Las Vegas, and the house that she lived in is like a historical place in Vegas, which is weird.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So she had some money.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: She had some money.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she was a maid there, and then it said that she was she was a key witness to the trial, but uh reportedly on her deathbed in 1948, she confesses that she was paid for her testimony, which kind of helped out Lizzie.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of it doesn't really make any sense that it would be her because from all intents and purposes it seemed like she had a pretty good relationship with him.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: However, there is speculation that she was having an affair, A, with Lizzie.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the one that like Abby found them upstairs in the bedroom, and that's why they ended up killing her.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also speculation that she was having an affair with John Morse.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that was part of it too.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: That they were Sullivan.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was like, all roads lead to Maggie being a hoe.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: So then you have John Morse.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: He had the established business relationships, he had an absurdly perfect and over-detailed alibi for the death of Abby Borden, but he was considered suspect for a period.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: He was a butcher by trade, so he always had a cleaver on him.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that doesn't work in your favor.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: They had argued the night before.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: They think that he Morse murdered Abby as an act of rage while she was hiding up the guest room, that she maybe had some caustic words for him, which she was known to say.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Andrew, daddy.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Daddy?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, never say.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Never again.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe he blames him for his sister's untimely death in some way.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't like it.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then he's like, allow her to enjoy her life or something.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Also, one of the things is that he allegedly says that he was with Dr.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Bowen at the time as part of his alibi, but Dr.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Bowen was at the murder.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, no, he was the one that pronounced them dead.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have Jose Correa de Mello.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is kind of like less.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is where you start to like get a little, yeah.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: So five days before the trial starts, on June 1st, another axe murder occurs in Fall River.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: This time the victim was Bertha Manchester, who was found hacked to death in her kitchen.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: There was a huge similarity between the two.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: The day before the trial opened, Jose is arrested for the Manchester murder.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was blasted all over the papers, so the jury, who was not sequestered, could have easily seen it.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it turns out that he was a Portuguese immigrant that had not arrived in the US until eight months after the Borden murders.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's speculated that authorities left this information out to leave reasonable doubt in the juror's minds.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Which is so interesting.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it gives the bad name for Portuguese people who are gonna really be a huge influence in Fall River coming up.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: So then the last one is this the last one?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have the wild-eyed man.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: So Lizzie told police she had seen a wild-eyed man lurking around her home the morning of the murders.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Several logos reported seeing the suspicious man who matched Lizzie's description in vicinity later that day.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Since there was no sign of forced entry, nothing was stolen, no one was seen or entering or leaving, it's largely believed that it wasn't a stranger.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they believed that the man could have been William Borden, who was the illegitimate son of Mr.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Borden, who was trying to extort money from his wealthy father, who was reportedly preparing a will.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: This ties a lot of the case's loose ends together and seems to be pretty plausible.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone in the family knew about William, but it was never discussed.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: They knew that their father was changing the will as like this was kind of coming to a head.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they believe that Lizzie contacted William to muster his help in persuading the father against it, which I don't know why he would be any help considering he wouldn't even acknowledge that you were like person you were a bastard.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're Jon Snow, essentially.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy does not seem like Ned Stark and like trying to like take him in, you know.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, he doesn't, but maybe there is some sort of guilt there towards the end of his life.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: But like how do you describe people are like, oh, that matches the description of a wild-eyed person?
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like how do you like look for someone with wild eyes?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: You'd be like, are those are those wild?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Would you consider those wild?
• 38:22
  unknown: No.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you what are you looking for?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone everyone's opinion's different.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: Genius.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: So they believe that he may have hated Abby.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a lot of this comes down to like, it feels like Abby's the one who was murdered, and Andrew is just like, all right, we gotta fucking kill him too.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because she seems like a real bitch.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like no one likes her.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody likes her.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they seem like one of these couples that is just like, oh, for the love of God, here we go.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: They come into the pharmacy and you're like, okay.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know who doesn't let anybody do anything.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta, we gotta get a new pail for our toilet.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: They think that William kind of thought Abby was like taking the place of his own mother, who should have been the one to marry Andrew Borden.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that while he was waiting for Mr.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Borden to return from town, possibly Abby was mocking him or telling him he had no chance of receiving inheritance.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: So he went into a flew into a rage, killed her with a hatchet that he carried with him at all times in a burlap bag.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, these are all from books where people have like devised these theories.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: So based on a true story.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Loosely based on a true story.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Lizzie, according to Brown's theory, then allowed herself to be named a suspect rather than disclosing the real killer so that once acquitted, she and Emma would be the only undisputed heirs to the board and fortune, rather than face the possibility of having to share with any heirs of their half-brother.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: She took a terrible risk in the name of greed, a gamble that she wants.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a theory.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so she's the youngest.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like completely implausible to be like, if they're all devising a plan, made everyone.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone kind of like kind of gets off good in this.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: If they're like, all right, we're gonna stick this on Lizzie.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if she didn't do it, the odds are that it's gonna be really hard to prove that she did.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because all you have to do is make one person believe you didn't do it and you're off the hook.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like who could kind of get away with this?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who could we make?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: So and then you know, if you're drawing straws or you're trying to like, you're a group of people, Lizzie's like the youngest, and she's like allegedly the cutest.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, she's everyone's like, well, Lizzie's so hot, so no one's gonna think it was her.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then and again, people are like, well.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean if she was that hot, I would imagine that she probably would have been able to land a husband unless she didn't want to.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm interested to go look at like who's hot in 1892.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: 1892 version of Hot or Not.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: That would be a great episode, like top 10 hotties of the 1800s of the 19th century.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: She ends up getting acquitted.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: They end up buying this 14-room Queen Anne style home in the hill.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Finally made it to the hill.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: They named Maplecroft.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: They lived the life that Lizzie had always dreamed of, large staff of servants, and all the modern conveniences.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: They still weren't very popular.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: She started to go by the name Liz Beth, which is a tough one.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: And she tried to get a fresh start, but Fall River was not very odd.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like move, like go somewhere else, you know.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maplecroft was kind of the target for school children who threw objects at the house.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how could you not?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you got some.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's where they came up.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very Victorian little Lizzie Borden, you know?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: So they're like all holding hands and dancing around.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: In 1897, she faces another scandal when she was accused, but not charged of shoplifting while visiting Rhode Island.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like Lizzie, oh my god.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, well, no one a rider.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have everything, you know, but that's not what it's about.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's not.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: So Rhode Island, huh?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Rhode Island, I wonder where it was.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Providence.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Prolick at the mall.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: She lived her life out in Fall River and died June 1st, 1927, at the age of 66.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: As far as anyone knows, if she did know what happened that horrible day, she took it to her grave and Emma died over a week later.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: The original family home is on 2nd Street in Fall River, Massachusetts, and is now a bed and breakfast.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: You may spend the night in the bedroom where Abby Borden was murdered.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's fucking sick.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And tours are available.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: So tours are available.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever been there?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: I have.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: How is it?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: I never slept there though.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, is it like a normal Airbnb where like, oh, it's$195 for the night and then it's like$750 for the cleaning fee?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: They should do this kind of thing like something you get something if you make it through the night, like a t-shirt.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: I survived the Lizzie Board and House.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: But also, like that's morbid.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you survive the night, that's I mean, you there is paranormal investigations that suggest that there's a lot going on in there.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you did a pretty good job of kind of you know, because you could sort of just read each one and have a confirmation bias to like you think that's the one.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the one that makes the most sense is Lizzie.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: In the upstairs bedroom with the hatchet from downstairs.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you think?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I so I I think it was Lizzie, but I think that there was some kind of mental breakdown or like psychosis or they said it when they were talking about the seizures that she had, they said the ones that they were talking about are the kind that like you could literally have a seizure and just be walking around doing shit.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you're convulsing.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not that far-fetched to say that she was in a state of psychosis or dissociated to the point where she didn't know what she was doing at the time.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: But that still makes her very she's still libel.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe she's got a lot of pent-up frustration because she's But then like it's hard to say that because then for the rest of her life, she never commits another crime except for the one shoplifting.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: The shoplifting.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe she did, and like we just don't know.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so like she's like, maybe she like murdered a stable boy or something that nobody even But I do I do think it's Lizzie Borden, but I do think that it was premeditated.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would believe it was her, maybe the maid too, or the sister.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you think that like they kind of convinced her or took advantage of her?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's wow, it's it's a lot to think about.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I told Tucker we were doing this topic, he was like, that's boring.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because he'd heard so much about it.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, first of all, I was extremely offended.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then I said, you know what, who did she murder?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Everybody knows the story.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, who did she murder?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, her mom and dad.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wrong.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Stepmother.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was her stepmom.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: You just believe every nursery rhyme?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a nursery rhyme?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: You believe every nursery rhyme about murder that you hear?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: Ironically, a lot of them are about murder.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And death.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything's sick and twisted if you really look into it.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sure is.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: But on that note, I don't think there was a damn thing uh boring about I think you did a good job, and this is one of my favorite true crime cases.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know you were really excited when I came up with video for it.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know what's funny, because I was getting a tattoo once, and like they had this picture that was drawn, and it was Lizzie Borden's face, and I was like, Oh, where'd you get that?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: And they were like, Oh, this was expensive.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Lizzie Borden used to draw pictures of herself and like send them to people with like cards.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: And apparently that's like something I mean you couldn't really send a picture.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you had to like That sounds like a made-up story.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, that this happened, but was it was that like is it a true artifact or whatever?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was like asking like how much and it was too rich for my blood.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Too rich for your blood.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's it's definitely I think just the fact that, you know, obviously for us.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's something that you heard about a lot if you lived in like California.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or if this because we are a hop, skip, and a jump from Fold River.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Ful River is what, like 45 minutes from here?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not even that you About that.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, around it's around that.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on the day, depending on the bridge situation.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right now, yeah.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: We heard about it all the time.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then they have a nursery rhyme.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: You don't there's not a ton of nursery rhymes about a specific murder, so no, the muffin man was about a murderer.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's for another day.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, thank you all for listening.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Please rate and review.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: We have um a few more Halloween episodes coming up.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, and we will see you next week.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: See you next week.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do come in.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Someone count five.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?