Latest / Love Letters to Troublemakers / E5. Who is the Ideal Worker?

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E5. Who is the Ideal Worker? · Love Letters to Troublemakers

0:00
The cognitive overload that it takes to try to meet impossible
0:04
standards is such a drag on your energy, on your cognitive
0:11
ability to think about new ideas, to have a space for
0:16
creativity or innovation. I think it really can impact
0:21
your mental health. And I think I've seen 2, like
0:25
imperfectionist cultures, the bar is always moved.
0:28
You think that you're reaching something or achieving
0:31
something. You get there and there's a new
0:33
bar, there's a higher bar. And so you never get that sense
0:37
of satisfaction of completing something, of succeeding at
0:41
something, because there's always something else to
0:44
achieve. Hi, I'm Lars Galleon.
0:55
And I'm Aparna Ray, welcome to the Circle Back Club, the
0:59
podcast for anyone who has ever suspected that the problem isn't
1:03
us. We name what's broken at work,
1:05
back it up with the receipts, and build real power with
1:08
workers who are done performing. No productivity hacks here, no
1:12
personal brand advice, just an honest analysis and a community
1:16
ready to change the status quo. Yeah, we are here to reimagine
1:21
and rebuild workplaces, to strengthen communities instead
1:24
of depleting them, to see your Co worker as your comrade, not
1:29
your competition, and to stand up for the dignity and care of
1:32
all humans and this beautiful planet together.
1:35
And today we're going to talk about the ideal corporate
1:39
worker. Well, the image of the perfect
1:43
worker. We probably all have someone or
1:46
some way of being that comes to mind, whether it's the parody of
1:51
corporate work, welcome to Circle Back Club, or maybe it's
1:56
an ideal that you've tried to be or you're still striving
1:59
towards. People write books and build
2:03
careers around perfecting the best way to be in corporate
2:07
work. From what you're wearing to the
2:09
way you speak, how you spend your time.
2:12
Now we're all flexing AI fluency.
2:16
Today we're going to get into some of the research that helped
2:19
us to understand the ideal worker and of course, talk about
2:23
the cost to ourselves and others when we try to meet this very
2:28
specific type of corporate perfection and reimagine a new
2:33
ideal that is rooted in community access and care.
2:38
So we're going to talk about performing perfectionism.
2:40
We've learned how targeted universalism helps to create a
2:43
framework that is designed for all people.
2:46
We are not here to tell you who or how to be.
2:50
We're here to talk about how we are together in corporate
2:53
environments and just ask, is this serving our humanity?
2:57
And we are so lucky to be joined by our friend Valerie Williams.
3:01
Welcome to the club, Valerie. Thank you so much.
3:05
Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
3:07
I love you both so much and I'm excited for our conversation.
3:11
We really can't wait. And a little bit about you,
3:15
y'all. Valerie is the founder and
3:17
managing partner of Converge Collective, which is a workplace
3:21
culture strategy house. She's a leadership coach and an
3:25
autonomy advisor for ambitious women, which feels very relevant
3:30
for today. So again, welcome.
3:32
We're so happy to have you with us.
3:34
Thank you. Thank you.
3:36
So let's warm up a little bit. Given the fact that we are
3:40
talking about the ideal worker, I'm curious if there is an ideal
3:45
in either of your lives that you tried to fit into that you just
3:50
never could. It could be at work or outside
3:53
of work. Anything come to mind?
3:56
You know, for me, I, I went to Business School now remember
4:01
being in Business School saying where am I in Business School?
4:05
You know, my reason for going to Business School was that I
4:09
needed some time to pivot. I knew that I was wanting to go
4:13
into a different direction with my career.
4:15
And so that's what everyone was doing at that time.
4:18
But I felt like I did that because that's what everyone was
4:21
doing at that time. So that felt like an environment
4:24
that was not for me. Now Grant and I had a great
4:27
time. I learned a lot but that felt
4:30
can't feel off. Yeah, the ideal that I tried to
4:33
fit into that I never could. I would have to say it's a
4:37
pencil skirt. Yeah.
4:42
And you know, as a little chubby human coming out of like coming
4:51
out into the workforce at a time when the Super low waisted jeans
4:55
were in and also the pencil skirts.
4:58
I just like trying to find clothes to go to work in.
5:03
Was was a little bit traumatic in my early 20s.
5:09
I have stories there one of my first jobs coming out of college
5:14
and this this fits with my answer is needing to perform a
5:19
certain type of sales role and I was told that I shouldn't go to
5:22
a sales appointment without my nails done.
5:25
Can you imagine like lol and that's somebody.
5:30
Sent that to me like 3 years ago.
5:34
Yeah. And like, what are we doing with
5:35
our hands anyways? Whatever.
5:37
Like, yeah, yeah. My, my, like the ideal I never
5:43
fit was my gender presentation. I tried so hard throughout my
5:47
life and every year from middle school to college that in
5:51
between summer, I was like, I'm going to be summing in this time
5:55
and I would straighten my hair, which is, you know, probably
5:58
ages me a little bit, wore girly clothes and it would last like 2
6:01
weeks. And now I'm Lars.
6:04
This is who I am. But it would took like a really
6:07
long time to figure out that not only that I didn't want that,
6:13
but who I actually wanted to be. And I think that's a really
6:17
interesting theme in this episode too, where when we try
6:21
to fit within a specific mold or identity, we don't actually have
6:24
space to figure out who we actually are.
6:27
But they're going to Business School or wearing a pencil skirt
6:30
or whatever it is, you know? So I appreciate those answers.
6:35
So let's set this up. I probably read too much
6:40
research in prepping for this episode and I'm finding that as
6:44
a host, I think I am going to just be the.
6:49
I mean, we're both. The nerd, but but it's you're a
6:51
nerd. I literally go and you sent me a
6:53
text message yesterday where you're like, I'm still working
6:56
on the script for this. And I was like, how?
7:00
I feel like we wrote the script together already last week.
7:03
Yeah, we literally, we literally did.
7:05
Yeah. But then I read, and I do think
7:09
it's helpful because when we talk about the ideal worker, I
7:13
think we could look at it in different ways.
7:15
And just to clarify for our listeners and what we're getting
7:18
after today, one way you could think about the ideal worker is
7:22
what a good employee looks like. Like good employee attributes.
7:26
Kind of like when we talk about what a productive worker is.
7:30
And there's endless studies on this that are traits that we
7:33
probably all agree with, like communication, teamwork,
7:37
adaptability, integrity, empathy, initiative, willingness
7:41
to learn, all of those traits that are universal soft skills
7:46
and obviously an ideal way to work in regards to the way that
7:51
you treat and engage with other people alternatively.
7:56
And what we're trying to actually look at today is the
8:00
ideal worker in the sense of the type of worker we actually
8:03
experience behaviorally at work. So that's reinforced by the
8:08
culture norms, obviously, like the way the business is set up
8:11
and the way that they reinforce whatever the culture is.
8:15
And what we're interested in talking about is what does the
8:19
pursuit of trying to be an ideal worker do to us as people?
8:24
The ideal something that we are striving towards to show our
8:29
allegiance. You know, so that includes the
8:32
way of working, location, time spent, communication channels,
8:38
access, our choice to take parental leave or your
8:41
presentation of self. That all has these policies and
8:45
programs that kind of reinforce that expectation.
8:48
And these aren't all inherently wrong.
8:51
I don't think that's really the point of the episode, but in the
8:55
United States, we have one of the worst family, medical and
8:59
parental leave policies literally in the world.
9:01
So there's also a lot to talk about, which is exactly what
9:05
we're doing. But that's the focus of this
9:08
type of striving towards ideal. So Valerie, I'm curious, just
9:14
like right out of the gate, when you hear the ideal corporate
9:18
worker, who comes to mind for you?
9:20
Well, you know, the first term that came to mind was unbridled
9:24
devotion. You know, I, I think about the
9:28
people that you encounter at work that are just like they
9:31
have the company's name tatted on their chest.
9:33
It's like they are all a beneath.
9:35
They work their 16 hour days, they go home, they do their one
9:40
hour at home and then they're back online.
9:42
I just think about that person that you know, that you
9:46
encounter at work that is all about the company, and I've
9:51
definitely encountered those people throughout my career.
9:53
Yeah, When I think about the ideal corporate worker, I as
9:58
somebody who has never worked in corporate, right.
9:59
So that is I only know corporate culture because they've been my
10:06
clients, but I've never been an employee in a, let's say a big
10:09
Fortune 1000 company. And when I think of ideal
10:13
corporate worker, I I think subservience and I think similar
10:19
to the of being using corporate speak, seeking alignment and
10:26
lots of PowerPoint presentations, lots of meetings
10:29
to decide when you're going to have other meetings to, you
10:32
know, order swag, right? Like how many meetings does it
10:37
take to order facts? So those are the kinds of things
10:39
that I think about when I think of the ideal corporate worker,
10:42
it's somebody who's not asking a lot of question.
10:45
They're definitely devoted and depending on the industry, they
10:48
also look a certain way. They also have this like
10:51
physical appearance where I think in tech it's very normal,
10:55
especially for men to wear Tivas and socks, which for the record,
11:02
I find acts actually a little disgusting.
11:06
But that But that doesn't really apply to the women that work in
11:10
tech, right? Like they can't quite look that
11:12
mousy, so they have to look a little bit put together.
11:15
And Lars, I'm thinking about this video that we watched by an
11:20
influencer in December. You like you and I were watching
11:23
this video and this woman is like, yeah, right.
11:26
Like so if you're working in this industry, this is how you
11:28
should. Dress.
11:30
And while no one should go to work in pajamas or their
11:34
housecoat, that right, like she was so stern with whoever the
11:39
audience was that she was speaking to, where she's like,
11:42
do your makeup, do your nails right?
11:44
Like put on your suit. And so, yeah, Valerie, you're
11:48
like, yes, I mean. What came to mind when you were
11:52
saying you talked about our the tech guys, but what about the
11:55
sales guys, Right. You know, you can go go to lunch
11:58
anywhere at a restaurant and stay at a bar and you can see
12:01
the white and the blue collared shirts and, you know, listen to
12:05
the conversations. Those are those are that's the
12:07
ideal worker. You know, they're having their
12:09
sales calls, they're getting ready for their next meeting.
12:12
So that's what comes to mind for me.
12:14
Yeah. And to both of your points,
12:16
there is, there's both obviously like that, Yeah, that balance of
12:20
devotion and performance. And part of this episode is
12:25
getting curious about what is the cost of that, You know, if
12:28
you like it, if you're into it, Yeah, that's that's a wonderful
12:31
thing. And that has a systematic,
12:35
systematic impact on the way that the world runs around you.
12:40
And the the first time that the ideal worker was named and
12:44
studied was by a University of Oregon professor named Joan
12:47
Acker, who passed away in 2016. And in in 1990, she published a
12:54
really important paper called Hierarchies, Jobs, Bodies, a
12:59
Theory of Gendered Organizations.
13:02
And the study said that the ideal worker was exactly as you
13:05
described, Valerie, someone who prioritizes work above
13:09
everything else, is fully devoted to the organization and
13:14
embraces work as the primary identity.
13:17
And when you bring gender into it, that is reinforced through a
13:23
division of Labor, the cultural symbols, how you interact your
13:27
your own identity, the logic of the company.
13:31
And So what she's saying, and I think it's super relevant still
13:36
today, is that the way that we prioritize the job also
13:40
reinforces the gender norm are the gendered ideal worker.
13:45
And here we are in 2026. Aparna sent this to me and I was
13:49
shocked. There's a recent study that will
13:51
link in the show notes finding that Gen.
13:54
Z men are twice as likely as baby boomers to believe wives
13:59
should obey their husbands. Interesting.
14:03
So have you not seen the study? I have not seen the study.
14:07
Please this. Is it's like it's so insane.
14:10
OK, but but also the women are getting more conservative.
14:14
Also the Gen. Z women are getting more
14:16
conservative and they're aspiring to the stay at home
14:20
girlfriend. Yeah.
14:22
Yeah. Where?
14:26
OK, So what do you think happened?
14:28
We look generation to generation to generation.
14:31
How do we think we got here to where we have feminism and the
14:36
rise of women in the workplace, let's say in the 90s and the
14:42
2000s to now this trend where we people don't want to work
14:48
anymore. People don't aspire to have
14:52
career as the top priority in their lives anymore for this
14:56
generation. And that's of course
14:57
generalizing, but what do we think happened in that time
15:01
period to have this phenomena? OK, first of all, this is our
15:05
podcast and so like we we ask you the questions.
15:12
Lol. Fine.
15:20
OK. But do you, OK, do you guys want
15:22
to know more details about this study?
15:25
They apparently surveyed to 23,000 people, which is a
15:32
substantial. It's a big.
15:33
Pool. And it's not just, you know, US
15:38
based, the, the study is like across something like 30
15:42
countries and 1/3 of Gen. Z males across the world, right?
15:49
This is not just in the US, but it includes the UK, Brazil,
15:53
India. 1/3 of the men said that a husband should have the final
15:59
word on important decisions. So this is happening globally.
16:04
And so I think, Valerie, like you're asking what's happened,
16:07
right? Like in the 70s and the 80s, we
16:09
were like, women are amazing. You know, like women should go
16:12
to college, women should be lawyers, Women can be anybody.
16:15
And all of our moms went to work.
16:18
Like I am from India. My mom, my mom has worked her
16:21
whole life, literally her whole entire life.
16:25
And I think that's true for y'all, y'all's moms as well.
16:28
And I what I think is happening is the partly what I think is
16:38
happening is the things we heard as millennials around being a
16:43
boss girl that actually didn't work out for most millennials.
16:49
That rhetoric of like negotiate your pay and do this.
16:52
And you know, like go to 18,000,000 networking events a
16:56
month. That actually has not resulted
17:00
in closing the gap. Even Let's see if the three of
17:03
us individually have done well for ourselves it through our 30s
17:07
and coming into our 40's. The reality is that the wage gap
17:11
still stands and has been stuck at $0.80 for white women and
17:16
$0.50 for native women. And arrangement means 50 and
17:19
$0.80, right. And queer, like women
17:24
identifying people are also not doing that well, right?
17:26
They have it. They they've also, they also
17:28
experienced a pretty significant pay gap.
17:30
So I think the younger generation is looking at that
17:32
and it's probably asking themselves, well, like these
17:35
women burnt themselves into the ground.
17:37
And so why do I have to write like the softer aesthetic, the
17:42
softer tried wise life that looks really good to me, not
17:45
realizing what that actually means.
17:47
But I I but I think for the men and I lived in India in my early
17:52
30s and started to see some of these things as moldy was coming
17:56
into power in India is fascism requires division to be
18:05
successful and fascism requires and patriarchy requires women to
18:12
be subservient. And so you see this in policies
18:16
and practices across the world now that are really pushing
18:20
women down and putting men on a pedestal.
18:24
And, and so I know that this is true also of Gen.
18:28
Z men in India, that, yeah, they also, they also believe that
18:34
women should stay at home, that there's no urgency for women to
18:38
get higher education. And then of course, that like
18:40
your wife should await you. So I think there's many, many
18:44
things happening, and a lot of it is the orchestration by
18:47
conservatives to move. Our.
18:50
World in the direction where they have greater and greater
18:54
control. That was a lot of words, no?
18:59
That's that's real and it's I think, you know, like all of us
19:02
have been in this work in culture, work in corporations
19:06
for a long time. And the age-old debate is like,
19:11
what is the balance of systemic change versus supporting the
19:14
worker directly in being able to navigate the system, which I
19:18
think is really obviously relevant and why that question
19:22
was important. Valerie if like what?
19:24
Like the cost of trying to fit the ideal is also we keep the
19:30
system as it is like we need to redesign what we think success
19:36
looks like. We need to redesign the way the
19:39
bureaucratic system is. We need the everything, right?
19:42
Like we need the overhaul. And when we perpetuate the
19:46
performance of the ideal worker, you know, we all know this and
19:51
probably our listeners know this because you've experienced it is
19:54
is that we just end up in that same cycle over and over.
19:57
And so it's, while it is disappointing to see that this
20:02
is where Gen. Z landed, I think to your point,
20:04
apart is like, well, like what? Where are we at?
20:07
This is late stage capitalism, baby.
20:09
We're like praising CEOs in ways we've never done before.
20:15
You know, like the Kingdom, the like, the like we are in like
20:19
this tipping point of ideal worker modeling that, you know,
20:25
compared to when Joan wrote this piece in the 90s, you know, I
20:28
think even then culturally it was a little different.
20:31
It was about access. So yeah, yeah.
20:36
So who, who are we modeling around right now?
20:40
Like who is the model? You know who the model is?
20:43
Did you see the creepy video with Melania Trump and the
20:46
robot? No.
20:49
Have we not seen it? That we did not see that.
20:52
She she released this video and this robot is literally being
20:57
touted as like the future of work.
20:59
And they both walk out side by side.
21:02
This is who we are modeling the ideal worker after now a robot.
21:07
I mean, we see all of these companies, we see these
21:11
companies with these layoffs saying it's for AI block other
21:18
tech companies, right? Every company, every company,
21:23
the ideal work for this perfection.
21:28
Humans are not we. We are never going to meet up to
21:32
the level of precision a robot can give in certain industries,
21:37
right? I think we're modeling after
21:42
robots. The ideal worker is no worker at
21:46
all. Is actually no worker at all.
21:50
We're just insane. I think Lars, were we talking
21:53
about this where I was like, so you know, there's like the rise
21:58
in Silicon Valley right now of investing in the zero employee
22:02
startups or the goal being a zero employee startup.
22:06
So at exit, you don't have to share anything with humans and
22:11
AI agents don't require Rs us. You don't have to pay Rs us.
22:16
You don't have to give equity to an AI agent and people are
22:21
trying to build 0 employee startups.
22:27
It's really. I mean, not to take us to the
22:29
end of the world scenario, but I mean, like you said, late stage
22:34
capitalism, I mean anything is possible at this point.
22:36
Yeah, we're watching it and just how like deeply we've lost the
22:41
thought that part of, I think part of creating a company is to
22:47
help create work for people or just like part of part of
22:52
creating something where you're working with other people is to
22:55
create and share stability in the world.
22:59
But obviously we're not there anymore.
23:02
Wild, absolutely wild. And now we are in to your point,
23:08
Valerie, this even more anxious, even more hyper striving towards
23:15
perfectionism. And that has a real like a real,
23:22
real impact. And I feel like we, so in 2023,
23:26
the Harvard Business Review platform, this research done by
23:28
Maura Aaron's Nilay about the anxious achiever.
23:33
Did you all follow that when that came out?
23:36
No, OK, so it's a book and a podcast now.
23:39
And basically it was just saying what we know.
23:43
Corporate workers are extremely anxious.
23:45
Oh my gosh, I'm married to one of these people.
23:47
I'm literally married to one of these people.
23:50
And, and part of it, which is absolutely your husband is that
23:54
they're saying anxious, you're an anxious achiever like you
23:58
are, your anxiety is a driver in your corporate career.
24:02
And the resources are more so focused on how do you calm the
24:08
individual's anxiety as opposed to change the organizational
24:12
structures that make you anxious.
24:16
And there's, there's another body of research done in 2020 by
24:21
like multiple big academic institutions that basically said
24:26
that there are very specific ways that a company can make you
24:28
anxious. 1 is if the culture norm is overly results oriented,
24:35
which to our earlier point about the salesperson, right, that
24:38
creates a ton of anxiety. And the research basically was
24:42
like, people can be intrinsically motivated when
24:47
they are supported, when they are connected with other people.
24:52
But in, in, in work life, we can't even fathom that.
24:55
Like we need the OK R we need it.
24:59
And you can also cause anxiety when there's loose standards or
25:02
if you don't have like a, a consensus on what the culture
25:06
is. So you end up having these like
25:08
warring factions internally. I don't know if you either
25:11
experienced that. And working with companies where
25:13
it's like marketing department versus, you know, whatever
25:17
department and they want to prove that their culture is more
25:20
important, people get very anxious about that.
25:23
We pause there. Have you all ever worked at a
25:26
company that does the competition like a fitness
25:29
challenge and then every department is on a leaderboard?
25:34
No, I haven't. Yeah.
25:37
Absolutely, absolutely. It is.
25:40
It is weird at best, you know, but it's it's meant to like
25:49
foster team building and you know, competition, healthy
25:53
competition, but it just really doesn't quite do that at the end
25:58
of the day. But yeah, yeah, I've definitely
26:00
seen it. The weight loss challenge like
26:03
the company wide weight loss challenge that I have worked at
26:09
a place that did that. Yikes.
26:12
Yikes. Yikes, yeah I don't know what
26:16
you 2 are like when you're anxious, but for me, when I'm
26:19
anxious, my vision of possibility and capacity to
26:24
connect with other people, it's full survivor mode.
26:28
So you're very susceptible to saying yes to whatever the
26:33
person who is in a position of power is saying to you because
26:37
you're just trying to meet that mark.
26:39
And I think it's the same with this, this performance of
26:42
perfectionism. I'm curious for you too, when
26:47
you think about what perfectionism does to us at
26:50
work, what have you seen? For me, I mean, you touched on
26:55
it a little bit with sort of that mental health piece.
26:58
I think it's, it's really like mental capacity, like you're
27:02
that the cognitive overload that it takes to try to meet
27:06
impossible standards is such a drag on your energy, on your
27:13
cognitive ability to think about new ideas, to have a space for
27:18
creativity or innovation. And I think it really can impact
27:23
your mental health. And I think I've seen two like
27:28
imperfectionist cultures. The bar is always moved, right?
27:31
So you think that you're reaching something or achieving
27:36
something. You get there and there's a new
27:38
bar, there's a higher bar. And so you never get that sense
27:42
of satisfaction of completing something, of succeeding at
27:46
something, because there's always something else to
27:49
achieve. So I think you just get
27:51
demotivated over time. To your point, you don't bring
27:54
those new ideas, those new thoughts.
27:56
You're just, you know, pushing, pushing that cog along the wheel
28:00
and going home and doing it again the next day.
28:03
Yeah, I worked. I worked for an organization
28:06
when I lived in India in my early 30s that was run by the
28:10
CEO just, you know, like perfectionism and sort of the
28:16
ideal workerness in that organization was so intense.
28:22
I came into a role where I was supposed to take an e-learning
28:25
product and launch it across the country.
28:28
And one of my biggest challenge was that in India, you have to
28:33
be in person to get stuff done. You're not going to get it done
28:37
over phone calls and Zoom meetings.
28:39
And, and she's, I remember her saying to me, she's like, well,
28:42
what's stopping you from, you know, living in a different city
28:46
for two weeks and then going to a different city?
28:48
And I was like, ma'am, my mental health is what's stopping me
28:52
from basically being a travelling salesman full time
28:55
with no end in stop. And in the end, like I wanted so
29:00
desperately to make this job work that I had over, I had
29:05
booked over 80 flights in my first year in that job.
29:11
Wow. It was, and that was just the
29:15
flights. It was not the train travel, it
29:16
was not the bus travel. It was not the inner city
29:18
travel, intercity travel, right? It was.
29:21
So it was so much. And then I came to the USI came
29:25
back to the States in 2017. And Lars, this is like right
29:30
around the time that you and I had met and was doing work on
29:34
the policy side for paid leave. And one thing that I realized
29:38
was an ideal worker, the perfect worker, not only doesn't have a
29:43
family, but they're also never pregnant.
29:49
An ideal worker is not birthing new life, which is how we get
29:52
any new additional workers. Like there's literally no other
29:57
way for us to have new workers. Well, I guess we have robots now
30:00
and we have our AI agents, So maybe we don't have to have
30:02
kids, but there's like no way to bring, you know, to have more
30:06
workers. You, you have to birth human
30:08
children. And, and because we were, I was
30:12
working on paid family and medical leave, I was like, oh,
30:15
this is a, this is a policy way for a company to enforce being
30:22
an ideal worker. You make having access to paid
30:27
leave so painful. And by the way, America doesn't
30:29
have federal paid leave and they're only, they're less than
30:32
10 states in the United States that have paid leave.
30:36
But you make it so hard through your policies, through your
30:39
practices, you, you don't like, you experience punitive measures
30:47
when you do take some version of leave for any kind of
30:52
caregiving, especially having a kid.
30:56
And so it's not just the media landscape.
30:59
It's also like companies are baking this into their policies
31:02
and practices. And, and Valerie, like, I'm so
31:05
curious because you've worked on a lot of policies and practices
31:08
in house and now as a consultant, I'm super curious,
31:12
where have you seen like, what are the policies and practices?
31:15
I mean. It's all over the talent cycle,
31:18
right? If you just look at the entire
31:20
talent life cycle, I mean, you mentioned we talked about like
31:23
promotions being tied to billable hours.
31:26
I mean, literally translating promotions based on how many
31:31
hours you can work and build back for the company.
31:35
I mean, you mentioned paid time off, but it's interesting.
31:38
Unlimited vacation is always a, a red flag for me because I'm
31:41
like, what what's happening there that you have to offer
31:46
unlimited vacation? And often that utilization of
31:49
that vacation is not even there because people are scared to
31:52
take it because they're like, what's happening here?
31:53
Why are you giving so much time, right?
31:55
But I mean, you can see it all over.
31:57
It's who and how you hire. It's those job, it's those job
32:02
descriptions. How are you describing those
32:04
jobs, right? I mean, it's how, which, what do
32:07
you focus on during onboarding? What, how are you socializing
32:11
people early in two different cultural norms based on what
32:15
you're telling them to do and the information you're
32:17
presenting and onboarding, right?
32:19
It's in, it's really throughout the ways that that ideal worker,
32:26
how we want to crash you into the the perfect person for us,
32:30
for our organization, right? In the early days, we're going
32:34
to really onboard you into that ideal worker profile.
32:37
So you see it throughout the entire time of life cycle.
32:40
Is there a particularly egregious example of molding a
32:45
person to be the perfect or ideal worker for a company?
32:49
We don't need to know which company, but I just yeah, I am
32:53
curious. You know, I think that I've seen
33:00
and I have delivered Introduction to Inclusion
33:05
workplace workshops, right? And on the surface, you know, it
33:11
can be a way to communicate skills that you hope people can
33:20
embody and to demonstrate on their teams and their
33:23
interactions throughout the organization.
33:26
Sometimes it can turn into a way for us to really overemphasize
33:35
certain cultural norms in a negative way.
33:39
So I don't think that's like the most egregious example, but I
33:44
see that how inclusion programs sometimes can also perpetuate
33:50
some of this cultural norms that we're also trying to actually
33:56
disrupt, if you will, in the workplace.
33:58
Well, something that comes to mind for me and that is related
34:02
to that that we haven't talked about yet.
34:06
And there there's, there is research on this too.
34:09
I can't stop. But not ruffling feathers like
34:13
not causing, not like saying that something is wrong, not
34:18
engaging in any kind of conflict resolution conversations.
34:23
We've been pacified to litigate immediately if we are in some
34:31
kind of conflict. I think in some cases, like
34:34
overemphasis on inclusion can have like a swing effect where
34:39
it's like, I can't actually turn to someone and be like, please
34:41
don't say that, you know, because it becomes a risk.
34:45
And I saw that. And in being in house, you know,
34:49
where DEI people are often tapped as being that in between
34:54
HR or employee relations to try to, to be able to figure out a
34:59
different way that doesn't have to be a litigated process.
35:06
And you know, I think like speaking personally for myself,
35:11
I think some of the success in my career has been because I
35:18
have gotten along with people. And it's obviously that's not a
35:23
bad thing. Like we want to get along with
35:25
people we work with. Like that's not like it's not,
35:28
it's not bad, but there is another side of that of like
35:33
playing it. So you're not causing issues,
35:37
they're not friction. Agreeable.
35:39
Yeah, agreeable is a better word.
35:41
Yeah. Yeah.
35:43
So the art of not ruffling feathers is, I think, really an
35:47
important part, which is why I think that like full adoption to
35:50
the company is so important and being the ideal worker is that
35:56
you're also not saying, hey, we should change this.
35:59
I don't mean leave, I'm good, whatever that is.
36:03
Well, I want to I want to go back to Valerie.
36:05
You know what you were saying, right?
36:07
Like what what is egregious and sometimes the inclusion
36:11
onboarding and it's become it's inclusion has almost or words
36:18
like psychological safety or belonging have become stand in
36:21
for no friction ever. I want, I never want to have a
36:26
negative experience with anybody.
36:28
I don't ever want to be made to feel bad.
36:32
And you guys, I had this client and I, I think they fired us,
36:38
but I had this client and you know, it was, it was probably
36:42
like this one of these one-on-one O 1 trainings.
36:46
And I was giving an example of culture, cultural appropriation.
36:50
And I talked a little bit about yoga.
36:52
And then I get a two page e-mail from the CE OS EAA, who is so
36:59
upset with me because and like this is a white woman and
37:04
whatever you want to picture when you like, want to picture a
37:07
white woman who does yoga, like she fit physically and like
37:10
aesthetically, all of those things.
37:13
She was so upset with me because did I know that yoga saved her
37:16
life? And when I used that example,
37:19
did I, did I not know that like yoga is a powerful tool for like
37:24
self empowerment? And, and I was like, listen,
37:28
this was an example. Like I'm, I'm literally from
37:30
India that this is the birth place of yoga.
37:33
And I'm not saying anything negative about your personal
37:35
practice. And and then the CEO made me
37:39
have a mediated conversation with her in person, literally in
37:44
person. She was like, you've really
37:46
upset this person. And I hope that, you know, as a
37:49
practitioner, you can model what you're preaching.
37:54
And I had to and I had to eat my words.
37:56
And I have to be like, I'm so sorry.
37:58
Like I should have seen you more fully.
38:00
And like, I totally see that like yoga, like restored your XY
38:05
and Z. And in my head, I'm like, this
38:08
is ridiculous. This is ridiculous.
38:12
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a slippery slope.
38:16
You know, when, when we, when we sort of water down these efforts
38:24
to the All Lives Matter level, right?
38:27
It, it just, it's important always for everyone to feel a
38:33
sense of belonging in the organization, of course.
38:37
But what can happen sometimes is that we lose that nuance of our
38:42
differences and the beautiful diversity that makes us
38:45
different. And that will cause friction
38:47
that will cause us to be uncomfortable.
38:49
And instead of us learning how to gracefully navigate those
38:53
interactions, we sort of shrink away sometimes from them.
38:56
So I, I hate that you had that experience, but I did think of
39:00
another egregious example for you as you were talking.
39:03
Tell us yes, I worked at a star in tech company that it was a
39:10
norm to work on the shuttle bus on the way to work.
39:16
So you have a 45 minute drive there and back, sometimes two
39:21
hours depending on traffic. Right.
39:23
But the norm was that was work time, right?
39:27
And I to this day can't I, I get nauseous in the car because of
39:32
that time period of my life. But like, that was normalized.
39:36
It was normalized to be on campus all of the time because
39:40
we have all these fun things to do.
39:42
But they really wanted you to work there all the time, right?
39:45
They wanted you to be on campus because they wanted you to
39:47
continue to work. And so I think you start to see
39:50
these kind of industry practices, the tech industry,
39:52
and that time was very much like competing for talent with all of
39:56
these toys, right, all of these fun things.
40:00
But it was drive home this point about this ideal worker of what
40:04
we wanted you to do, how we wanted you to spend your time,
40:07
where we wanted you to be, right?
40:09
And how we wanted to really orchestrate how you spend your
40:12
time and how you actually do your work.
40:14
So that was in hindsight, a very was a very socialized way of
40:22
doing things. That was.
40:25
Really about how we want the employee to interact with us and
40:29
engage with us and get their work done.
40:32
OK. So in my previous life in my
40:35
20s, my partner worked at Microsoft and he would take the
40:40
connector shuttle, right, which is the company bus service,
40:43
essentially. And I remember like this is
40:47
being being so naive at like 26 or 27.
40:50
He was like, yeah, it's really great to take the shuttle
40:53
because there's Wi-Fi on board. And my little tiny naive brain
40:58
was like, why do you need a Wi-Fi on the bus?
41:02
Like what? For what reason do you need
41:05
Wi-Fi on the bus? But like, you could listen to
41:10
your music or you can read a book or you could take a nap,
41:13
you know. And this is the reason, right?
41:16
Because the expectation is that the bus is comfortable.
41:19
And by the way, it's not a public bus.
41:20
So that's the other thing is that you don't have to write
41:24
with the riffraff. You don't have to write with
41:26
like your fellow citizens. You only get to write with your
41:28
peers. Absolutely, absolutely keep on
41:33
working. The commitment so we know what
41:42
we're working with, like what the current state is, that feels
41:46
that feels pretty clear. And I think that there is also a
41:50
lot of pre-existing wisdom and strategies and ways that we have
41:55
all worked worked to try to create a new ideal of worker
42:00
that serves all people that is responsible for the way that the
42:05
company is treating their workers and also treating the
42:09
world and a partner. I don't know like for on your
42:12
side when you when you think about those strategies, what
42:17
comes up for you? Yeah.
42:20
So I'm curious, have either of you heard of targeted
42:24
universalism? Thanks to you.
42:28
Do you know what? Thanks to you exactly.
42:33
So targeting targeted universalism is it's a policy
42:37
framework. It comes out of public policy,
42:39
right? And it says that we set an
42:41
ambitious goal for everybody, but using tailored strategies or
42:47
designing to help specific individuals reach that goal.
42:52
And one very, very common example of targeted
42:55
universalism, what you know is often like, what would you do to
43:02
help a single black mom achieve X goal, right?
43:06
And because her identity sit at the intersection of so many
43:11
oppressions, single parenthood, being black, being female.
43:15
And and so something that I've been kind of tossing around in
43:20
my head is what would that look like?
43:23
What would using targeted universalism look like at work?
43:27
And I got another dose in this framework.
43:30
Last night. I was hosting an event for a
43:32
friend who's running to head up the Board of Education in
43:36
Chicago. And he talked about his focus on
43:41
kids. And I was like, of course, I
43:43
agree. Like kids are important.
43:45
And he said, what would it look like if, what would it what,
43:50
what would it look like if? The question we asked was, are
43:56
kids learning? And he said that he had audited
44:00
like hundreds of hours of school board meetings.
44:03
And he also was an appointee on the Chicago Public's school
44:06
board for a couple of years. And he said, if we met for 150
44:11
hours, maybe ten of those hours were spent talking about student
44:15
learning, right. Your, your role, your governance
44:22
role is to make sure kids are learning.
44:24
That is literally the reason public schools exist.
44:27
And so I'm curious, I want to hear from both of you, what if
44:31
we applied this framework of targeted universalism to work?
44:36
What would be, what would we focus on?
44:38
What would be that ambitious goal and what might be a
44:41
targeted strategy to help a specific group that helps us get
44:46
to that goal? Yeah.
44:47
I mean, as you were talking, it doesn't sound much dissimilar to
44:52
design principle we use all the time and DEII shouldn't say all
44:55
the time, but that we like to employ around the curb cut
44:59
effects and. Yes.
45:02
Right, right. The curb cut is the little dip
45:06
that you see on sidewalks and they originally was designed for
45:10
wheelchair access, but we all use it, right?
45:13
When you have luggage, you have a stroller, right?
45:16
And so the idea of that with a design principle when you're
45:19
designing for change within an organization, is that you design
45:23
for the most marginalized person.
45:24
Yep, right. And so first you have to
45:27
identify who that is in your organization, right?
45:30
And I love this example of this single black mom, right, that
45:35
sits at these intersections. You, you first need to
45:37
understand what are her barriers, right?
45:40
What if actually happened with her?
45:41
Let's get to the core and the root of those problems, right?
45:44
And then you design from a theory of change from those, the
45:48
barriers that you're solving for that particular person.
45:50
And guess what? And when you do that for her,
45:52
the experience improves for everyone else.
45:54
That's what the curb could affect says, right?
45:57
So you think about the most isolated person in your
46:00
organization and solve their problems.
46:02
And I guarantee you the rest of your organization is going to
46:06
benefit from from that those solutions.
46:08
Yeah, Lars, what comes up for you?
46:11
What's an ambitious goal and maybe a strategy?
46:15
I think the like the complement to this around the actual
46:22
business structure in how you, if you, if we want workers to
46:29
show up in a specific way, like we're altruistic, we are
46:33
committed, we are kind to each other, whatever those qualities
46:38
are, there are organizational structures that we already know
46:43
exist to help make that outcome possible.
46:47
So a culture that is focused on teamwork and employee
46:50
development, helping people grow if they see, if you see your
46:54
customers as partners and not just people you're selling to.
46:57
If you're focused on a humane work environment that actually
47:02
and that all, you know, all those things feel like kind of
47:04
fluffy to say in absence of policy.
47:06
But that does create the conditions where the curb effect
47:11
or targeted universalism can be possible because the values are
47:16
there. When we try to design on top of
47:20
an organizational culture, values like hyper competition,
47:24
you know, the carrot sticks with reward and punishment, it's also
47:28
not possible. And you can do another like
47:32
culture design where it could be more dynamic, entrepreneurial,
47:36
creative, where if you want to be a culture that's focused on
47:40
taking risks, you can do that, but you have to be very flexible
47:46
and you have to be responsive rather than hyper bureaucratic.
47:51
And all of this is like all of this is studied.
47:53
Like we know that this is what exists.
47:57
But I think again, like the ever present question in our
48:00
conversation today is if you, if we're talking, I think talking
48:05
about the system versus the worker is really important
48:08
because the two of them are just doing the stance constantly.
48:12
But you have to honestly look at what is the company value on top
48:17
of who is the most marginalized worker?
48:19
And through that, you can actually create a design that
48:22
works. OK.
48:23
Can Ioffer you both something a little bit?
48:27
I've just been mulching on this and you can tell me to shut up
48:29
once you hear it. So targeted universalism, the
48:32
curb cut effects, right? These design principles or
48:34
policy frameworks typically designed to the edge, and the
48:37
edge is the person who's the most marginalized.
48:41
And I have just been sitting with this idea, which I have
48:45
honestly been a little afraid to say out loud.
48:48
So we might have to ask Ari to cut it.
48:52
What if our ambitious goal was happiness?
48:56
And we could answer the question, are my employees
49:01
happy? Are are the people that I work
49:04
with happy? And the edge that we designed
49:07
too, is white Men At Work? What strategies?
49:14
Because I feel like they're so unhappy, they're so lonely,
49:21
they're so mean and so entitled. Not all white men just saying
49:26
that, you know, Lars, thank you for being here.
49:32
But what if we said, like, our goal is our workers are happy
49:36
and then we design for white men to be happy at work?
49:43
Is that insane? Lars, I'm going to, I'm going to
49:45
let you go 1st. I'm going to, I'm going to
49:47
noodle. I'm going to noodle on that.
49:49
On behalf of all white people, I think what you I think what
49:58
you're talking about is important in the sense that and
50:02
you know, this is data we is common.
50:05
Now, white men are most likely than any other demographic to
50:09
end their lives by suicide in the United States.
50:16
There's an incredible amount of pressure that exists to be
50:20
solely devoted to your career and the the value of being a
50:25
provider above anything else. There's plenty of data that
50:31
shows that white people have been essentially bred out of our
50:37
capacity for empathy. And so being able to actually
50:41
connect with people and check when apathy is coming through is
50:47
something that we have multiple generations of relearning to do.
50:52
So, yeah, I think that, you know, is happy the right term?
50:56
I don't know, you know, I think it gets us close.
50:59
But I think the, the question that you're asking is that the
51:03
way I am interpreting it and the way that I have like completely
51:07
pivoted my career to focus on is, are these the working
51:11
conditions that actually work for the majority too?
51:15
And if we give, if we take white men as the sample and we look at
51:20
the data, we can say probably not, you know, like Mark
51:25
Anderson, what's his name, Andreessen.
51:28
Andreessen sorry, two ES, you know, flexing that he's not
51:33
introspective, you know, it's like, bro, that's actually how
51:39
we track diagnosing psychopathic symptoms and.
51:47
And he actually said, great men don't sit around and think.
51:51
And I was like, literally that is all of the great men in
51:55
history. That's all they have done is
51:58
leave a legacy of hundreds and thousands of letters that they
52:02
wrote to each other, what were going on?
52:05
And they're the OG influencers. They're like the gal that is
52:09
like has like 18 TikTok reels a day.
52:12
That is the great man of history.
52:13
All they do is is think and write about thinking.
52:16
Yeah. And there's so much to say.
52:18
And I think it is a really good example too, because that is
52:22
like, this is the model that he was taught and the rest of the
52:26
world is looking at him now. And we're like, that's not
52:28
greatness. We don't think it's cool that
52:30
you're a billionaire, but that's not actually what we think
52:35
greatness is. But what they have been said is
52:38
that, and yeah, like, how do we, how do one of the biggest
52:47
questions Aparna and I asked in choosing to do this project is
52:51
how do we support the people with the most material safety in
52:55
the world to see that this also isn't working for us.
52:59
And bringing that to white men is pretty compelling.
53:02
That's like, it is. It is its own curb analysis.
53:08
So yeah, I don't think it's too edgy.
53:12
I, I mean, I let, let me say this, you may be on to
53:16
something. I, it's interesting you brought
53:18
up, interesting you brought up Marc Andreessen.
53:21
It, it just may not be my work, but it may be, it has to be
53:23
someone's work, right? And so I remember the, I've
53:28
worked with dozens of clients and there's only been like a
53:32
couple of clients that it just didn't work out.
53:35
And one of those clients was a venture capital firm.
53:38
And I remember it was 20, like the end of 2020, early 2021.
53:43
And they hired me to do a series of conversations with their
53:49
team. And the first conversation, what
53:54
they wanted was a interesting intellectual discussion around
54:00
the dynamics of what was happening in the world.
54:03
What they did not want was that introspection of how did I
54:08
participate in that? How am I perpetuating some of
54:11
these issues? What can I do to change some of
54:14
these? They didn't want any of that,
54:16
right? And so it was just a mismatch.
54:18
And I think you're right. When your North Star continues
54:22
to be capitalism over everything, money over
54:25
everything, that's going to be the driver of all of your
54:29
decisions. And so it just trying to have a
54:33
humanity, humanity conversation was just so out of left field
54:40
for them that we just parted ways.
54:42
We just cut the contract, right? Because we just had different
54:46
goals. And like we had different goals
54:48
and we had different perspectives on what was most
54:55
important for us to focus on right now and what unique impact
54:58
they could have to start righting some of these wrongs.
55:01
And so it's not my ministry, it's not my work, but the it's
55:06
needed because this community holds so much power and I think
55:13
we can't not engage. We can't not try to engage with
55:19
this population. So let me know how that works
55:21
out for you. I'll.
55:24
Keep you updated. But I want to, I want to come
55:30
back to Joe and Acker and actually ask Aparna to read this
55:34
quote because we're talking about like, yeah, who is this
55:39
new ideal that we want to design for?
55:42
And Joan kind of said it in 1990.
55:46
So partner, we we do us the great honor.
55:48
Yeah, Joan Acker, a bad ass human.
55:51
I read Joan Acker when I was in grad school and that ages me
55:54
somewhat. So here's something she says.
55:57
She says such a transformation would be radical in practice
56:00
because because it would probably require the end of
56:04
organizations as they exist today, along with a redefinition
56:09
of work and work relations. The rhythm and timing of work
56:13
would be adapted to the rhythms of life outside of work.
56:18
Caring work would be just as important and well rewarded as
56:22
any other. Having a baby or taking care of
56:25
a sick mother would be as valued as making an automobile or
56:29
designing computer software. Hierarchy would be abolished and
56:32
workers would run things themselves.
56:35
Of course, women and men would share equally in different kinds
56:38
of work. Perhaps there would be some kind
56:41
of communal or collective form of organization where work in
56:44
intimate relationships are closely related.
56:47
Children learned places close to working adults, and workmates,
56:51
lovers and friends are all part of the same group.
56:56
No notes. You know it's no notes.
56:59
You know what that sounds like A village.
57:03
And. Everyone's aligned to their
57:07
purpose. Yeah, Everyone's unique skills
57:10
and talents are being honored. You know, we're human first.
57:16
We're actually human first, right?
57:20
So no notes. No notes.
57:23
Yeah, Jones says simply. We're producing goods, caring
57:27
for people and disposing of the garbage.
57:30
That's our headline. And I think that's that's it.
57:33
But we got to name it. Name it to change it.
57:39
Shall we, shall we switch gears? Shall we do some rapid fire fun
57:43
together that we did not prepare you for, Valerie?
57:47
Let's do it. Let's do it.
57:48
I'm ready, I think. I'm happy to read Valerie and
57:55
then a partner you want to follow.
57:57
Oh my God. Yeah, OK.
57:59
Yeah, I didn't prep either of you for this.
58:01
OK. And then it's become a
58:03
traditional on the podcast. So Valerie rapid fire don't
58:06
think too hard first sentence. The white collar workers
58:10
greatest superpower, if they chose to use it, is.
58:15
Efficiency. I was going to say organization.
58:20
Yeah, OK. Yes, yes, our our deep devotion
58:25
means that we can do that and then we can flex that somewhere
58:28
else. Yes.
58:29
OK. Valerie, what is your favorite
58:32
corporate phrase? Obviously ours a circle back.
58:35
What's your favorite corporate wording?
58:39
Let's table that until tomorrow, or let's table that too after
58:43
the holidays. And yeah.
58:46
Yeah. Low hanging fruit Let's go after
58:51
the low hanging fruit. Yeah, what's a corporate phrase
58:55
that white collar workers say that actually means?
58:58
I'm scared or I'm worried. Oh, I'm scared.
59:07
Or I'm worried. A part of you have years ago.
59:10
Mine is. I'm seeking strategic alignment
59:13
before. Moving forward on.
59:14
Something. OK, I'm going to say I was going
59:21
to say circle bag, but no, let me get back to you for that.
59:24
Yes. What's one thing the system
59:29
never told white collar workers about their own power?
59:39
It relies on authenticity. I would say that they have
59:45
power. Yes, yes.
59:49
Yes. OK.
59:51
Last one, Valerie, and this is just for you.
59:54
If you could say in one sentence directly to every white collar
59:58
worker listening to this right now, what is possible on the
1:00:02
other side of breaking the myth of the ideal worker, what would
1:00:05
it be? True human center partnership
1:00:14
where all parties involved are mutually benefiting from the
1:00:18
partnership, is possible. That's it.
1:00:24
Is she a marriage therapist? We don't.
1:00:27
Know. OK, we, we close out every
1:00:33
episode. Unfortunately, the end of our
1:00:35
time together is here with one take away each.
1:00:39
And one thing that you invite listeners to do this week.
1:00:42
Not something you can do months from now, but like what's
1:00:44
something that they can do today?
1:00:46
And we'll model it because we'll have Lars go first.
1:00:49
One take away one thing you can actually do.
1:00:51
This is just a big theme right now for my coaching clients
1:00:54
where they're trying to balance actively figuring out how to fit
1:00:58
into whatever the norm is at their company while trying to
1:01:03
maintain their sense of self or integrity.
1:01:05
And, you know, sometimes we can turn it on and be happy, like
1:01:08
tuck in our shirt, say, you know, let's let's table it and
1:01:11
you're in the groove. Like you, I've been happily
1:01:14
ignorant before and performative in corporate spaces playing the
1:01:18
game as a strategy. And the point of this podcast is
1:01:23
to give workers a different vantage point of how to ask what
1:01:27
is the cost for us. And so my offer for this week is
1:01:31
take some time with a Co worker too and just ask them the
1:01:35
question, who do you think is the ideal worker here?
1:01:39
And is this ideal aligned to who you are as a person outside of
1:01:43
work? Literally just ask those two
1:01:45
questions. A lot of what we're trying to do
1:01:48
here is give us language to actually see what's going on.
1:01:51
And some people might say, yeah, this is who I am.
1:01:53
I'm. I'm full MPC and I love it.
1:01:56
And some people might surprise you and you can learn about what
1:02:00
they actually care about. So let's work towards asking
1:02:04
questions where we can change the future together.
1:02:06
And you can actually start to see the person next to you in
1:02:10
their well-being, their humanity.
1:02:14
And. Yeah, if we're going to change
1:02:16
the world, we have to be honest about what we're doing.
1:02:18
So that's that's what's up for me.
1:02:22
That honest piece is is big, right?
1:02:26
When I think about the vision for the future ideal worker, I
1:02:33
think of honest, honest relationship to the organization
1:02:45
on both sides, right? I think we have to get out of
1:02:49
the delusions of family, of a workplace being completely your
1:02:56
identity. I think we just have to be
1:02:59
honest about the transaction. And so my gift is first you have
1:03:06
to be honest to yourself. And I think that starts with
1:03:09
personal alignment. And so my offer and what is
1:03:13
coming up for myself and a lot of clients these days is what
1:03:16
does a true alignment look like for you individually and what
1:03:21
does alignment look like as you develop these partnerships,
1:03:25
these contracts with these organizations?
1:03:28
Understand what that alignment looks like.
1:03:30
But first, start with alignment for yourself in yourself.
1:03:34
Beautiful. Mine would be take the heels off
1:03:39
right? Like you don't have to wear
1:03:41
uncomfortable shoes and and extend that metaphor into
1:03:46
whatever parts of your work life you need to extend it into.
1:03:52
Buy yourself a pair of ultras. You know, enjoy the the white
1:03:56
toe box It it makes a difference.
1:03:59
I do, yeah. Valerie, thank you so much for
1:04:04
being here with us. Thank you.
1:04:05
Thank you so much. For having me, this has been
1:04:08
great. I love this podcast.
1:04:11
I'm so excited to continue to watch and see where this goes.
1:04:16
Best of luck to you too. Thank you.
1:04:19
Thank you. Thank you.
1:04:20
Yay. OK folks, on our next episode
1:04:24
we're going to keep going and we're going to talk about
1:04:27
psychological safety and psychosocial hazards at work.
1:04:31
And there's such a big global field of research in how other
1:04:36
countries honestly are making workplaces safer for humans.
1:04:41
And my really dear friend and colleague, Dr. Nicole Dekay is
1:04:46
going to be with us on that episode.
1:04:49
And we hope that you'll TuneIn to this and that all, actually
1:04:53
all of them. It's a good one, you don't want
1:04:55
to miss it. It blew my mind the first time I
1:04:58
learned about the fact that there are these hazards that are
1:05:02
well documented. We know what work is doing to
1:05:05
us. So please join us and we want to
1:05:08
hear from you. Circle Back Club.
1:05:11
We are collecting stories from workers who are sharing their
1:05:15
ICS, their hopes, their reactions to our episodes.
1:05:18
All around corporate work. We want to be able to give a
1:05:21
voice to people who can't quite say it out loud because you're
1:05:25
on the inside and we want you to know that you're not alone.
1:05:28
So if you have a story, please share it with us via e-mail,
1:05:33
written or audio recording to hello at Circle back dot club.
1:05:38
I'm Lars. I'm Aparna.
1:05:41
We'll circle back. Thank you.