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Thomas Nagy and Paul Meenan cover blacklisting · The Electrical Show

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The Electrical Show with Thomas Najie sponsored by Bosh Professional Powerful power tools sort of
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measuring tools and experts accessories. Welcome to the Electrical Show. I'm Thomas Nagie
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with Paul Meenan and we are with you for the next hour. Now on
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today's show, Paul, what are we going to discuss? We've got one
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hour. Let's go controversial. Let's go blacklisting. Blacklisting something that happens across
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the country where essentially electricians are being fired and pushed out of the sector for
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a whole variety of concerns. Now we're going to be talking about some of
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the instances of blacklisting in this industry and what this means for safety and why
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we should ultimately care about it. So that is the core topic for today.
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Now music wise, music today is going to be from the Pretenders Robert
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Palmer. That actually brings back memories of Cocktail with Tom Cruise. That was
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ang it there, Lizzo and a few others. I'm sad, Come on,
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Tom, come on, you mean top Gun. No, Tom Cruise,
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he did cocktail. I mean I watched Top Gun, Maverick. I
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mean that was absolutely accepted. Cut up with a bottle of wine while you're
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watching it. Tell me that was not a banging film. I've never watched
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it. You've not watched it. Absolutely. I'm happy to say I cried
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at Pearl Harbor and those sort of films, But nah, not not Cocktail.
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Sorry, you've not watched that. I don't ever intend to watch Dirty
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Dancing either, Queen, don't stop me now the Electrical Show on fixed Radio
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down Thomas Nagie with Paul Meanan here on the Electrical Show. If you've just
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tuned in, don't worry, we are just getting started. You've seriously never
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watched Dirty Dancing, No, no intention to either. Again, by default,
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that means you've never watched Grease either. I had to watch Grease when
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I was a kid. You had to. You had to. Okay,
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all right, okay, let's get back on track. The people in our
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industry who are being blacklisted and the concerns that they're raising. Tell us a
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bit more about this. Yeah, blacklisted is a horrible term, and it's
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one that exists, and there's you've only got to go and Google to see
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how many blacklisting cases are in the courts, have been through the courts and
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It's something that I think has probably been around for as long as people could
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probably put pen to paper. I've I've had I've never been blacklisted, funnily
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enough, but I've had some quite interesting experiences. I've worked at major electrical
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contractors in my time, and I do remember this is giving away my age
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now, but in the late nineties there were two massive infrastructure jobs before the
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millennium. Being very koy here I am a little bit and you can you
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can guess that, but there was a huge blacklist that came out of that,
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and ironically, you could go onto a website. It was www dot
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am I a blacklisted electrician dot blog spot. No, I'm not making that
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up either, actually genuinely exist. It had people's names and then national insurance
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numbers who I knew were on there, who were brilliant electricians. And that
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was my first ever experience with blacklisting. And it turned out that they were
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all being branded because people were standing up for workers' rights, health and safety,
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terms and conditions, etc. Which all valid considering how rough and tumble
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the trades are and the conditions we have to work in. But in them
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days, people were just yeah, you're a troublemaker. You're not a problem
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solver, so I'm just going to blacklist you. And they actually created a
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website, yeah, for public No, So what happened was they had the
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list and somebody found it and then okay, they put it online to expose
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it. And when everybody found out, they all got to get out sued,
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and many many years later they all got ridiculously good payouts. I finally
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kind of shocking that you weren't on that list, not in a bad way.
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Surprise are many names you know. They would not dare put me on
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that blacklist. So what do we mean when we let's bring the listener up
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to speed when we say blacklisted, because ultimately that there's a bit of a
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definition here, which was probably between just firing somebody and blacklisting someone. Yeah,
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I'm just trying to find it on my phone. Now. I had
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my phone and I switched it off. I'm saying, play some music Greece.
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Although I mean, there's a fantastic film to be fair, while Paul
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go together. It's fantastic because Danny Zuker, at the very end, he
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realizes that if he wants to be with what's her name again? Um,
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yeah, but I can't remember it, and he realizes that if he wants
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to be with her, he's got a change. But she also anyway,
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pulling our train back onto the correct track. Sorry, Yes, what do
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we mean when we say blacklisted? So blacklist refers to a list of people,
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organizations, or entities that are shunned or excluded because they've engaged in unacceptable
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behaviors or activities, which, to honest you, And this is the thing
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I've got. If people are very easily blacklisted, what's I've employed hundreds and
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hundred and hundred electricians over there are people I would not employ again. I
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wouldn't say they're blacklisted, they were just really bad. Well, this is
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the thing. What the difference between blacklisting somebody and firing somebody is, well,
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I hind the same things. Well it isn't. It isn't because I
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would never blacklist anyone. The trouble is if they're bad and they have to
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move on, I wish them all the best for them and their families,
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no problem. I think the blacklist in term just purely comes down to the
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fact that if you are on site and you raise concerns that I'm going to
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say this out loud and incompetent moron doesn't understand how to manage and it is
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there to manage, and then decides you're a problem because you know more than
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me. It's the wrong thing we have in industry. In constructions, you
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see it everyone high vis beyond zero, one hundred percent safe, work safe,
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home safe, all these wonderful logos. An accident and then somebody goes,
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excuse me, I'm working off of a fifteen met ladder and I'm here
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for six days. Can I please ever chart, No, you're on the
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blacklist. Three days later you're gone. That's not people living their safety values.
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Now, people who do that to me, in my world should be
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pattered on the back and say well done. You're challenging normalized deviant behavior.
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Sometimes we don't think that what we're doing is bad. But at the end
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of the day, everybody's got a right to go home. And let's be
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perfranc As a trade, every single person in trade has done some really bad
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naughties. You know it will never happen to me. We've all cut corn
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as health and safety wise. But when you're on a big professional site where
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it's contractual and there's liabilities and lots of mandated policies about PPE. If you're
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still breaking rules, then you've got the right to challenge that and say no,
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hang on a minute, your work can affect me, or I'm being
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asked to work in unfair conditions, you should be able to challenge. I
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think that's where the blacklisting comes from, those bullish managers. So for me,
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blacklisting will always remain in the same context of there is a bully manager
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somewhere, or an incompetent more all on. It makes me think there could
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be a blacklist for EV, like all the people who say EV isn't quite
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as green as maybe has been made out to be. See the big If
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you dare challenge EV, all of the people who love EV will immediately character
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assassinate you. The one thing that brings them all together is that unlimited amount
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of cash that they have to play with, and not all of society has
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that, so and also they kind of forget that everybody has the right to
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their own opinion. The photograph that you see of a family with two point
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four kids and a dog and a nice green hill looking at the sunshine with
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an EV in the background, and you just sort of question it we could
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be on a blacklist ourselves are not cats? Not go down that road.
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The Electrical Show with Thomas Najie. This is the Electrical Show with Bosh Professional
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here on Fixed Radio. Now, if you've just tuned in, we are
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talking today about blacklisting in our industry is a prevalent problem. Now, Paul,
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what are Because I know you've got some stories, You've got some you've
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got some shockers on. There's some of the stories that you have, you
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know you've got with people that you know who've had this. Yeah, I
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think there is a We've got to be a bit vague about it, but
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yeah, when you go into big well we've kind of really touched on one.
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But when you go into big contracting worlds, once you've got through the
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what I call sign blinding, so you go behind the hoarding with the million
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health and safety instructions and then sometimes occasionally it become you're at the mercy of
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the behaviors and competency of the site manager. I've interviewed people for jobs and
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they've been a bit coy and a bit nervous, and I've I always say
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to people, tell me what you're not good at tell me about a time
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when there's been a health and safety issue, how have you resolved it?
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And I remember once this guy turround me. He was very coy, and
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I said what's wrong and he said, I don't really know what to say
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because I don't want to be blacklisted or not be given an opportunity. And
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I said, hang on him, and it is this a controversial story?
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You went yeah, I went, give me the honesty I need. And
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he went on to a site literally and it was there wasn't the access to
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quick He was given a load of laborers and told to do skilled work with
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unskilled labor with not really the right pepe or the right tools, and if
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he didn't do it, him and everybody else were sacked. And he challenged
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it, and he was then all of a sudden out of work for a
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number of months, and that was blacklisted. And I employed him. I
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employed him. I took him on straight away because I thought, well,
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I need someone who can challenge me. If I'm the manager, I need
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people around me who will keep the fingers on the pulse, make sure that
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I'm not compromising myself, that I don't become vain or arrogant. That I'm
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grounded and humble, but yet the industry, the big boys, the big
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players, because the big you get, the more money you earn, and
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the more greedy you get, and more corrupt behaviors. And there's a phrase
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I've used for years, the normalization of deviance. It was identified when the
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Challenger mission blew up, and it's been identified a number of times since.
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It's where bad behaviors become the norm. If you are aware, and I'm
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not trying to do another Brussel brand of your own surroundings, you will see
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the bad behaviors straight away, and what have we always said in our industry,
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within ten fifteen minutes and sus another spark out whether they're technically good enough.
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It's the same with people's energy. In their behaviors, you'll suss them
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out whether they're a good spirit, a good energy, or they're a toxic,
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bitter, horrible person. Yeah, and that's where you get the high
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turnovers and the managers wonder why. I think, having seen blacklisting for myself
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on a number of occasions, one of the guys who works for me was
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actually on a national blacklist, I've got a feeling where we actually spoke about
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this just before we got on the show. I think we're going to try,
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isn't it right. We're going to try and get him in on a
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show a couple of weeks time, so let's see if we can get him
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on to talk about it. But yes, he did get put on a
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blacklist, and he's one of the best people I've ever worked with ever in
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my entire career. So I'm kind of I would love to be able to
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stand up and sack every single person that's got something to do with blacklists.
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But also in the same breath, the industry needs to have an open and
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refreshing conversation of blacklisting and the management and the behaviors around blacklisting is terribly wrong.
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But also identifying poor behaviors in the contractor that supply the individual. You
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either level them up or you are some respectfully to walk away, and that
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needs to be that. Does the industry have them conversations? Okay, it's
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just us? Okay, I don't think so. The Electrical Show on fixed
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Radio, This is the Electrical Show and Thomas Nagie with Paul Mean, and
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we've been talking about blacklisting of electricians that are raising safety concerned on sites.
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Now, the main reasons for being blacklisted ultimately is mostly down to safety,
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isn't it. I'd like to say yes, but a work ethic, I
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think it's more of a conflict avoidance thing. So somebody says this is wrong,
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and the person receiving it can't compute, can't process it, so just
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immediately puts up their own protective barriers and that person then gets character assassinated for
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trying to do the right thing. Okay, there's ways it means to going
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about it, but I guess canceled culture. That's kind of what it is,
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don't You don't want to say anything. It's canceled culture. Before it
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was canceled culture. That's what blacklisting you could argue was. I mean,
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that's basically what it is now. Yeah, that's literally it's just cancel culture.
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You don't want to speak out. Bud Light if anybody who's been following
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this, you've been following this, this boycott of bud Light while a boycotting
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it, basically they did this really this like super woke advert and basic because
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bud Light is primarily sold in like Alabama and places which are just completely woke.
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Yeah, there's no boy, and they're losing billions and billions of pounds,
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and essentially your audience sent it boiled it exactly, it boiled down to
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when they actually got to the nitty gritty of it, they found that the
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marketing departments somebody's one of the bosses or somebody. I don't know one hundred
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percent, so don't quote me on this, but basically, bosses said we're
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going to do this advert. Nobody wanted to turn around in the marketing department
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and say, actually, you know what, I don't think that this is
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where our target audience is. Nobody wanted to be that one person because they're
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worried that they'll just get canned for it. This cancel culture. So because
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if you turn around and say, actually, I don't think this is right,
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so you branded this or that, and they they didn't want that,
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so every single person just kept quiet. I think one of the phrases I've
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heard and people have come to me and said, you're not afraid to stick
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your head above the parapet. You're damn right, I'm not afraid to stick
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my head above the parapet. Why go away and learn a trade and then
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not apply it? Properly. Why go away and learn about health and safety
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and everybody's families and making sure you protect yourself and others, and then throw
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it in the bind once you're through a hoarding on a site. Absolutely pointless
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to the day I die, I will be the man who sticks his head
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above the parapet. I'm happy to be shot at every single time if it
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means I'm doing the right think. We need more people in trades to do
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that, and blacklisting has it's a huge deterrent from people from standing up and
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doing the right thing, and it continues that normalized deviant behavior that we have
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in the construction trade. Is it possible that there are some people that are
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just because there's there is a proportion of people who just they just want to
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stir the pot and just cause trouble for the sake of causing it. Because
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there are some people that doesn't matter what you do, always just hate the
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world and everything in it. There always people want to watch the world burn,
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and you need to be mindful of them. And this is why you
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need to be consciously aware of your behaviors and other people's. Be respectful,
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don't let other people rile you up. The trouble is when you end up
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with where it goes on site bullying and blacklisting. It destroys people. It
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absolutely destroys. And in our industry we've got United Union who can do what
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they can. You've got like Samaritans obviously if it affects your mental health.
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But it always ends up in an eight year later court case and yeah,
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you're saying this last week. Ye how long it takes to get to court.
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It's bizarre. It takes too long and that person gets vindicated, but
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for seven to eight years they've not been able to feed the families. Probably
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their name has been mud for what because a major contract's gone Well, we
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strongly deny all of these accusations, but we've just paid them out three under
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Ground. Why are you paying out three under Ground if you strongly deny it.
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It's just tosh. But these companies are so arrogant they get away with
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this corporate marketed. Never accept corporate liability ever. A good thing I heard
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was that when people pay compensation or things like this, it's not it's how
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you perceive. It's how you look at it, and it's not they're not
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paying you, so you can walk away they're paying it so they can walk
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away. Yes, and it's changed that mentality of it. It's not actually,
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it's not that you can walk away, it's so they can walk away.
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Yeah, it's nothing, it's peanuts. Most major, major companies will
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have pots of millions of pounds for problems and staff to go. I remember
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once I was at a major electrical contractor I won't name them, and there
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was some troublesome, aggressive, quite vicious people who just wanted to bully for
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the sake of bullying. There was no mind, right nor reason, and
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the business basically sat them in the room and said, here's three years salary,
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you're leaving. And they had that capability to give them because they were
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the one bad apple that was ruining everybody else. Now, I don't think
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that person was blacklisted, by the way, but sometimes there are bad apples
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you need to remove, but not for raising the right concerns, the right
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challenges, asking the right questions that should never ever be sackable or blacklisting.
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And I just think it's tragic that that still goes on. We'll be right
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back after more music here on fixed radio. The builders station Fixed radio time
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to crack on that's it for today's Electrical Show, where we've been talking about
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electricians being a blacklisted for raising concerns around safety and other issues. Now I'll
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just to wrap this up quickly. Should should electricians be living in fear about
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raising a safety concern because there is that inherent thing people don't want to raise
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concerns just for fear of being that person. You know, when we first
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started E five, I had an infomite five group dot org dot UK email
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address. Massive mistake. In the last year we had I think it's about
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three and a half thousand emails from electricians and I'll be honestly, they were
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heartbreaking. It was people venting about the industry, the challenge they had.
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I had to deactivate the account because I, in good faith, I couldn't
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spend every waking minute responding to them giving them advice, because it was like
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I was an agony uncle in all my spare time and doing wrong. I
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did give advice as much as I could, but as more as I gave,
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the more came back, and it just became this untangible thing. And
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I'm like, I can't be the agony uncle for the industry. But there
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is massive problems out there. Yeah, massive. I'll tell you what,
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Tom, what would be good is, since we're talking about blacklisting so much,
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it would be really good for any of the listeners out there if you
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want to email us at studio at Fixed Radio dot co dot UK, and
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then our producers will get back in touch and maybe you can come on the
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show and tell us some of your horror stories and we'll be back in touch.