Latest / WriterCon / Crime and Baseball with Mark Stevens

Transcript

Crime and Baseball with Mark Stevens · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast, get.
0:03
Speaker 2: Yourself a Network. The words don't matter, the writing will come.
0:08
Speaker 2: Get yourself in network, get yourself friends in the writing world.
0:11
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
0:14
Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
0:18
Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
0:21
Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, author
0:25
Speaker 1: the want lnd Files book series.
0:29
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse l Rich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for
0:33
Speaker 3: joining us today. Everyone here at writer Con Central is
0:38
Speaker 3: back from their travels or ready to go back to
0:41
Speaker 3: the much more important work of being writers and podcasters
0:45
Speaker 3: and sound engineers. Jesse, how was Ireland?
0:49
Speaker 1: Ireland was lovely. It was like it was like the
0:53
Speaker 1: southern Island of New Zealand, but which is a lot
0:55
Speaker 1: more people, just like apparently we were blessed with incredibly
1:00
Speaker 1: good weather. It sprinkled once and apparently supposed to rain
1:04
Speaker 1: the entire time. It was like sunny and sixties and beautiful,
1:08
Speaker 1: and everyone was very kind and sweet, and the food
1:12
Speaker 1: and beer and whiskey was delicious.
1:15
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well yeah, Now all the posts I saw
1:18
Speaker 3: were from Northern Ireland. Were you just there? Did you
1:20
Speaker 3: go into the nation.
1:23
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, We started off in Belfast for Michelle and
1:27
Speaker 1: I's anniversary, and then we met some friends in Dublin
1:30
Speaker 1: and then did a couple days in Dublin, a couple
1:31
Speaker 1: of days in Cork, and then went down to this
1:33
Speaker 1: tiny port city to take a boat ride to the
1:36
Speaker 1: island where they filmed all of like Luke Skywalker's intro
1:39
Speaker 1: scenes in you know, A Force Awakens and Last Jedi,
1:44
Speaker 1: and then went back to Dublin for a day and
1:48
Speaker 1: then back to Belfast to fly out.
1:51
Speaker 3: So you were in Dublin a lot. This is This
1:53
Speaker 3: is a Book podcast. I got to ask, did you
1:55
Speaker 3: see the Book of Kels.
1:56
Speaker 1: We did see the Book of Kells. The Book of
1:58
Speaker 1: Kells exhibit was awesome. Also went to the Museum of
2:02
Speaker 1: Irish Literature, which was very James Joyce heavy. Obviously they
2:07
Speaker 1: actually had like one of the original copies that was
2:10
Speaker 1: sent back to him of your listens. Yeah, and that
2:16
Speaker 1: was really cool. The Book of Kels is incredible. And again,
2:19
Speaker 1: as a Jewish person, I'm looking at the Book of
2:21
Speaker 1: Kel's as just a really cool illustrated book, right pretty,
2:25
Speaker 1: but it's it's fascinating, Like just the history of it
2:28
Speaker 1: and everything. And by the way, for our listeners and viewers,
2:32
Speaker 1: if you're ever in Ireland, make sure to stop by museums.
2:35
Speaker 1: Their museums are incredible.
2:37
Speaker 2: Wow.
2:37
Speaker 1: So all right, especially and I'm never going to say
2:40
Speaker 1: this again, especially the Titanic Museum in Belfast. Blown away
2:45
Speaker 1: by this museum, it was incredible.
2:47
Speaker 3: Okay, good to know, Laura. You just got back from
2:52
Speaker 3: the OK Book Awards, where it looked to me that
2:55
Speaker 3: about half of the nominees were books you edited. That
3:02
Speaker 3: either you were slightly I.
3:05
Speaker 4: Mean you were there. You were there as one of
3:08
Speaker 4: the finalists, so huge congrats to you. I was, I was.
3:13
Speaker 4: I did touch a lot of the books that were
3:15
Speaker 4: finalists this year, which was wonderful. I was so excited
3:18
Speaker 4: to see that come out. It doesn't it doesn't hit
3:22
Speaker 4: the same as having one of your own books up there,
3:26
Speaker 4: but I know I've been busy helping other people and
3:29
Speaker 4: it also made for a very relaxed evening. There was
3:33
Speaker 4: no anxiety. Fun.
3:35
Speaker 3: No, You're like tinkerbro You sprinkle fairy dust on other
3:39
Speaker 3: people's books and they can fly.
3:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
3:43
Speaker 3: I made that work so well. From Jesse. All right,
3:50
Speaker 3: our interview today is with Mark Stevens, who is a
3:53
Speaker 3: former reporter, pr man, and TV news producer who turned
3:58
Speaker 3: his handwriting fiction. His award winning novel, The Fireballer was
4:03
Speaker 3: named Best Baseball Novel in twenty twenty three, and he
4:07
Speaker 3: has also written several crime and mystery novels, including Trapline,
4:12
Speaker 3: which came out a couple of years ago and got
4:14
Speaker 3: a lot of attention. His new novel is no Lie
4:18
Speaker 3: Lass Forever, which involves a reporter investigating a cold case
4:22
Speaker 3: serial killer who may have returned, but first the news
4:44
Speaker 3: new story number one, the Million Lives Book Festival turns
4:49
Speaker 3: out to be a disaster and possibly a complete scam.
4:54
Speaker 3: You may have read this. It happened while I was
4:56
Speaker 3: out of town, but I couldn't resist putting this on
4:58
Speaker 3: the podcast anyway. Authors and visitors, they're about one hundred
5:03
Speaker 3: authors and about forty visitors total, say that they are
5:07
Speaker 3: out thousands of dollars after paying to attend or to
5:12
Speaker 3: have sales exhibit tables at this Million Lives Book Festival
5:17
Speaker 3: held in Baltimore and now go check it out. Dozens
5:21
Speaker 3: of social media or TikTok posts videos authors saying they
5:25
Speaker 3: were this is a quote duped into attending a low
5:29
Speaker 3: quality book fair with poor attendants because there was really
5:33
Speaker 3: nothing there except a big emptantee room. Some of you
5:39
Speaker 3: are now probably harkening back to that fake Willy Wonka
5:42
Speaker 3: experience I think was in the UK somewhere, or the
5:45
Speaker 3: similar Bridgerton. Everybody shows up in costume and there's nothing
5:49
Speaker 3: there here. People were told to come in black tie,
5:53
Speaker 3: and people did. They're wearing these fancy ball gowns and
5:58
Speaker 3: tuxes and nothing. I mean, I guess this is going
6:03
Speaker 3: to happen, and everybody should check it out before they
6:07
Speaker 3: show up. But I didn't expect to ever happen in
6:10
Speaker 3: the book world, you know, I mean a fake book conference.
6:14
Speaker 3: I guess it's a reminder of how important it is
6:17
Speaker 3: to do your research and attend quality events, even if
6:21
Speaker 3: they aren't necessarily the cheapest this one was. And look
6:24
Speaker 3: what happened. Yeah, they lured so many people to this thing,
6:30
Speaker 3: and you know, authors are hoping to get a little recognition,
6:35
Speaker 3: maybe sell some books. Others are hoping to meet people,
6:39
Speaker 3: and it's just a disaster that I think. Jesse's got
6:43
Speaker 3: a video of the conference, which is basically this empty
6:46
Speaker 3: convention center room. The TikTok videos show this undecorated room
6:52
Speaker 3: with concrete floors and some folding tables chairs set up.
6:56
Speaker 3: There was no program as such, and of course the
6:59
Speaker 3: same page said no refunds. Not to be fair, the
7:03
Speaker 3: one of the organizers may be backing off of that
7:06
Speaker 3: and has sat on TikTok that they're going to try
7:08
Speaker 3: and do refunds. But anyway, Wow, Jesse, how can people
7:15
Speaker 3: distinguish frauds and amateurs and this was one or the other.
7:22
Speaker 3: How can they distinguish that from real conferences?
7:25
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you just have to, like, yes,
7:30
Speaker 1: you gotta do your research. You also have to see,
7:31
Speaker 1: like is this new? Who's putting it on? Have they
7:34
Speaker 1: put it on before? Because it seems like every industry
7:37
Speaker 1: is going to have their fire their fire festival, you know,
7:41
Speaker 1: or there. I was trying to make a James Fry
7:44
Speaker 1: joke here, but I can't get the wording right friar festival.
7:47
Speaker 1: Maybe anyway, there we go, nailed it all? Right? Uh yeah,
7:53
Speaker 1: I mean it's gotta be careful. I mean there are
7:55
Speaker 1: scams everywhere, and you know, we're we're onslide with spam
7:59
Speaker 1: phone calls and tech these days and so you just
8:01
Speaker 1: got to you gotta do your research and honestly, never
8:04
Speaker 1: sign up for something that doesn't have a refund policy, right,
8:09
Speaker 1: That's always a bad sign.
8:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah. Saying no refunds on the page where
8:15
Speaker 3: you're supposed to lure people in, that is a bad sign.
8:18
Speaker 1: No refunds on something that's brand new, like, never a
8:20
Speaker 1: good sign.
8:21
Speaker 3: So, Laura, you know, and I think you agree. I
8:25
Speaker 3: believe in writing conferences. We host one every year for
8:28
Speaker 3: starters plause. I know many people who have gotten their
8:32
Speaker 3: first agent or gotten their first deal at conferences or
8:36
Speaker 3: cruises or retreats. How can people know what to do
8:40
Speaker 3: and where to go to advance their writing careers.
8:43
Speaker 4: That's so difficult, especially if you're trying to give something
8:47
Speaker 4: brand new a chance. I'm sure it did sound very enticing,
8:50
Speaker 4: very fun. Who doesn't want to go to a black
8:53
Speaker 4: type book event. I probably would have been showing it
8:57
Speaker 4: to you if i'd seen it. Do you think, like
9:00
Speaker 4: Jesse said, it's so important to check to see who's
9:05
Speaker 4: behind it, who's putting it on, what kind of experience
9:08
Speaker 4: they have. And he makes an excellent point. If there
9:12
Speaker 4: is a no refunds on a brand new event like
9:14
Speaker 4: nothing at all. It's so challenging, so many scams. I mean,
9:19
Speaker 4: even when people reach out to me for potential editing,
9:26
Speaker 4: they're many times apologetic. They're trying to you know, they're
9:29
Speaker 4: asking me legitimate questions, and I come back and say,
9:32
Speaker 4: these are smart questions. Do not apologize for being smart.
9:38
Speaker 4: I think we don't want to feel like we're being
9:40
Speaker 4: rude or something like that. But you do have to
9:44
Speaker 4: you do have to protect yourself. And I'm always happy
9:48
Speaker 4: to answer all of those questions because I'm not the
9:52
Speaker 4: business of scamming anyone.
9:53
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm just shocked that. You know, maybe I'm
9:58
Speaker 3: being too puritanical, but I am confident that whoever was
10:02
Speaker 3: behind this, they aren't writers. Writers don't do this sort
10:06
Speaker 3: of thing to one another. To me, writers are the
10:08
Speaker 3: most generous person person people on earth. And so if
10:13
Speaker 3: it wasn't writers, who wasn't I mean, who said, ah,
10:17
Speaker 3: I know how to get people to come to an
10:19
Speaker 3: empty conference center. This is even better than Willie Wonka.
10:23
Speaker 1: Writers like no no refund and black tie. That's two
10:27
Speaker 1: red flax. I'm like, I'm like black tie, Like black
10:33
Speaker 1: tie seems indulgent.
10:35
Speaker 3: I've seen conferences that had costume parties or dress up.
10:39
Speaker 1: But yeah, but I don't know.
10:41
Speaker 4: Some of us, some of us really like an excuse
10:43
Speaker 4: to break out.
10:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it.
10:45
Speaker 1: Talks too, but like for like a convention where you're
10:48
Speaker 1: meeting people, I don't know, Like, yeah, it seemed like
10:53
Speaker 1: it's one of those details where like what does this
10:55
Speaker 1: have to do with the process of the thing?
10:58
Speaker 2: True?
10:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, all right. News story number two, which
11:03
Speaker 3: possibly is even creepier than the first one. This is
11:06
Speaker 3: about Agatha Christie rising from the dead to teach you
11:11
Speaker 3: how to write.
11:12
Speaker 1: She lives right.
11:16
Speaker 3: You may be familiar with programs like Masterclass here in
11:21
Speaker 3: the United States, websites that have James Patterson Jesse's Favorite,
11:27
Speaker 3: or Dan Brown teaching people how to write. Well, there's
11:30
Speaker 3: a BBC similar program in the UK which is now
11:35
Speaker 3: for the first time, offering instruction from arguably the greatest,
11:40
Speaker 3: certainly the most successful mystery writer who ever lived, despite
11:44
Speaker 3: the fact that she died decades ago. Yes, the Christie
11:48
Speaker 3: estate has improved an AI reconstruction. I mean there's an
11:54
Speaker 3: actual avatar you see of Agata Christie talking to you,
11:58
Speaker 3: offering writing. Some of them are clips from past interviews
12:03
Speaker 3: but the truth is she didn't give very many interviews.
12:05
Speaker 3: She didn't go into that sort of thing. Most are
12:08
Speaker 3: simply AI generated of I don't know what writing bits
12:13
Speaker 3: that they're putting in. I mean, it's pretty obvious stuff
12:17
Speaker 3: being put in Agatha Christie's AI ellipse. Here's the advertising
12:21
Speaker 3: on the website. Go check this out. It says, in
12:24
Speaker 3: a world first, the best selling novelist of all time
12:28
Speaker 3: offers you an unparalleled opportunity to learn the secrets behind
12:32
Speaker 3: her writing in her own words, made possible today by
12:35
Speaker 3: Agatha's family, an expert team of academics and cutting edge
12:40
Speaker 3: audio and visual specialists, as if she were teaching you herself.
12:45
Speaker 1: I'm right here, Agatha Christie. People, come on, you want
12:51
Speaker 1: to hear it?
12:52
Speaker 3: Are you willing to go to advice? Yeah? Are you ready?
12:56
Speaker 3: You're ready to go?
12:57
Speaker 1: Listen. I'm ready for this avatar to murder someone. Then
13:00
Speaker 1: someone had to solve it. That would be right on brand.
13:03
Speaker 3: Do you think we could get the Christy avatar to
13:06
Speaker 3: come to Ryder Con and maybe give it talk fascinating?
13:10
Speaker 1: It had to be remote, yeah, like a put it
13:15
Speaker 1: on the screen, holographic projectory type type thing.
13:18
Speaker 3: Could be a first it could be, and then our
13:23
Speaker 3: competitors will imitate it the next year, So maybe it's
13:26
Speaker 3: not worth doing. Laura, would you be willing to give
13:29
Speaker 3: this kind of instruction a try?
13:33
Speaker 4: While I do think it's very important to keep learning
13:37
Speaker 4: and be open to anything that helps you learn. I
13:42
Speaker 4: don't know. Is there it's remote?
13:44
Speaker 2: Isn't it?
13:45
Speaker 4: Is there a trip to England involved that?
13:47
Speaker 3: Nothing? So I think it's just staring at your computer screen.
13:52
Speaker 4: I think I would want to know who was actually
13:56
Speaker 4: feeding the information into the avatar before I did.
14:01
Speaker 3: If they had an AI engine and they fed it
14:04
Speaker 3: all eighty or whatever it is of her novels, maybe
14:08
Speaker 3: it could deduce a few things. I don't know.
14:12
Speaker 1: It's it's weird that's not using like information she publicly
14:15
Speaker 1: gave other than her books, right, She didn't give a
14:17
Speaker 1: lot of interviews, so like, how how is she gonna
14:19
Speaker 1: like characters in her books aren't able to tell you
14:22
Speaker 1: how to write?
14:24
Speaker 3: Is going to say the little gray cells? Yeah, write
14:27
Speaker 3: your book.
14:28
Speaker 1: I mean listen, it'll tell you probably tell you how
14:30
Speaker 1: to commit a murder and get away with it, right
14:32
Speaker 1: or fail.
14:34
Speaker 3: It's always the least likely suspect.
14:36
Speaker 1: That's right, you've met them early, but they were very
14:39
Speaker 1: not not interesting. But you have to you have to
14:42
Speaker 1: meet them early.
14:43
Speaker 3: I know that at least so you forgot about it, right.
14:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
14:46
Speaker 3: Wow, the world just keeps getting weirder.
14:49
Speaker 1: I want I want to put this on record right
14:51
Speaker 1: now when James Parrison does this, and he will and
14:54
Speaker 1: he will no one buy it.
14:57
Speaker 3: He's already doing recorded interviews by but I guess this
15:00
Speaker 3: would be even less work than that.
15:02
Speaker 1: Just yeah, oh yeah. Also, in one of the many
15:05
Speaker 1: airports I was in on my way from Ireland back,
15:08
Speaker 1: I saw a James Parrison Michael Crichton book and I
15:12
Speaker 1: was like, shame on you, Michael Crane.
15:14
Speaker 3: Well he is Also he's also gone, did they find
15:18
Speaker 3: an unfinished manuscript.
15:20
Speaker 1: Or something I need to look at that?
15:21
Speaker 3: I was just like, wait, report back to us.
15:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I'll.
15:27
Speaker 3: Craft corner this time. In this episode, we're launching a
15:31
Speaker 3: fabulous and I mean that new series from John Myers
15:35
Speaker 3: about very various situation issues that come up for everybody
15:41
Speaker 3: who attempts to write fiction. This time, he's going to
15:44
Speaker 3: be talking about character development and specifically this really fascinating
15:49
Speaker 3: idea of using relationship theory to create your characters with
15:54
Speaker 3: more depth and more relatability. So take it away, John.
16:02
Speaker 1: Craft Corner.
16:03
Speaker 5: Welcome everybody to writer CON's Craft Corner. I'm John Myers.
16:07
Speaker 5: I'm half of Write Better Together. My business partner, Emily
16:10
Speaker 5: Brooks and her husband are expecting a child and she's
16:14
Speaker 5: taken time off for a little while, so I'm flying
16:17
Speaker 5: solo here speaking of mothers and children today, I want
16:21
Speaker 5: to talk to you about using attachment theory when you
16:24
Speaker 5: developed your characters. Now, if you don't know what attachment
16:26
Speaker 5: theory is, seventy years ago, they started an experiment by
16:32
Speaker 5: putting a bunch of babies in a room with their mother.
16:35
Speaker 5: After they were all calm and everything was good, they
16:38
Speaker 5: removed a mother for a period of time, and then
16:40
Speaker 5: they returned the mother afterwards. About half of the babies
16:43
Speaker 5: took the mother back and were welcoming and we're pleased.
16:47
Speaker 5: So those babies were determined to have a secure attachment style.
16:52
Speaker 5: About twenty percent of the babies had what you would
16:56
Speaker 5: call an anxious attachment style, and they were nervous while
17:00
Speaker 5: the mother was gone and were reticent to accept the
17:03
Speaker 5: mother back, but then eventually did. A third group of
17:06
Speaker 5: babies were aloof and distant and aggravated when the mom
17:12
Speaker 5: came back and ignored the mom and those babies were
17:16
Speaker 5: deemed avoidant. Now some of these have different names, So
17:20
Speaker 5: if you're familiar with attachment theory, it's evolved over the
17:23
Speaker 5: last seventy years. The breakdown that I just gave you
17:25
Speaker 5: was fifty percent secure, twenty percent avoidant, twenty percent anxious.
17:30
Speaker 5: Well at least ten percent, doesn't it so In the nineties,
17:34
Speaker 5: subsequent researchers classified those as disorganized or fearful avoidance. So
17:40
Speaker 5: how does this affect you and your characters? Secure adults
17:44
Speaker 5: tend to have healthy, trusting, and supportive relationships. Anxious adults
17:48
Speaker 5: also called preoccupied, often crave intimacy and may struggle with
17:52
Speaker 5: feelings of insecurity and fear of abandonment. Dismissive called avoidant,
17:57
Speaker 5: are likely to avoid emotional closeness and may prioritize independence
18:01
Speaker 5: over intimate relationships. Then the last one that disorganized a
18:04
Speaker 5: fearful avoidant. They have a fear of getting too close.
18:07
Speaker 5: Those are the least amount of people ten percent. Interestingly enough,
18:12
Speaker 5: when they take surveys nowadays the percentages are about the same.
18:16
Speaker 5: It was fifty three percent secure. One survey had fifty
18:19
Speaker 5: eight percent secure, twenty percent avoidant, twenty percent anxious, then
18:24
Speaker 5: ten percent disorganized fearfull avoidance. Now that you understand it,
18:29
Speaker 5: I'm going to give you a practical application of how
18:31
Speaker 5: to use it in your stories. Whether you're writing scenes
18:34
Speaker 5: for screenplay or passages for a book. You want believable
18:38
Speaker 5: tension and you want conflict. So if you have a
18:40
Speaker 5: bunch of secure attachment characters in the same scene over
18:44
Speaker 5: and over and over, how exciting is that going to be.
18:46
Speaker 5: To the contrary, you can't have all the disorganized fearfull
18:50
Speaker 5: avoidance because no one would want to read that book,
18:53
Speaker 5: right if every character is despicable. These are the cheaters
18:57
Speaker 5: who can't keep their commitment. They're getting married on Saturday,
19:00
Speaker 5: but they have one last fling on Friday night. Those
19:04
Speaker 5: are the disorganized attachment people. I try to think of
19:08
Speaker 5: some examples from books to give you, but I'm gonna
19:11
Speaker 5: have to use some movies as well. Trying to find
19:13
Speaker 5: an example of secure adults in literature, that's a hard one, man.
19:18
Speaker 5: All I could think of is Gomez and Rtitia Adams.
19:21
Speaker 5: They have a loving relationship. They support each other no
19:26
Speaker 5: matter what They speak positivity into Wednesday their daughter. They
19:30
Speaker 5: might be a little bit over the top, but they
19:32
Speaker 5: are definitely secure in their relationship. Anxious types. That one's easy.
19:36
Speaker 5: So you have Ross from friends, you have Donkey and Shrek.
19:40
Speaker 5: When you pair two of them together, you have Gats
19:43
Speaker 5: being Daisy, both anxious types. However, even though Tom and
19:47
Speaker 5: Daisy have problems, Tom is an example of a secure
19:51
Speaker 5: attachment person, so that relationship is the more stable of
19:55
Speaker 5: the two. As far as avoidance, early Harry Potter, he
19:59
Speaker 5: goes to school, he doesn't want him to mesh with
20:02
Speaker 5: the other student. That's a great example. Elsa and Frozen.
20:06
Speaker 5: She's separated from her sister emotionally and physically, and they
20:10
Speaker 5: don't want to get close to each other. Now, the
20:13
Speaker 5: last one, the disorganized and fearful avoidant, just can't make
20:18
Speaker 5: a commitment. If you watch the session, Shiv is that embodied.
20:23
Speaker 5: She can't commit to anything. You can't have a story
20:27
Speaker 5: with too many shives. So I'm in the middle of
20:31
Speaker 5: adapting a sitcom into a novel. It'll be out in
20:34
Speaker 5: time for writer Coon in September. It's really been eye
20:37
Speaker 5: opening up when I've tried to apply these attachment theories
20:41
Speaker 5: because you want the characters to push the plot forward.
20:43
Speaker 5: But you can interchange some of the characters in some
20:46
Speaker 5: of those plots to make the conflict bigger, or to
20:49
Speaker 5: make the conflict more challenging. Just like the example I
20:53
Speaker 5: gave with gatspying Daisy, if you put two anxious people
20:57
Speaker 5: in the same scene in a screenplayer pass sit in
21:00
Speaker 5: a book, it's going to be a different dynamic if
21:02
Speaker 5: one of them is a peacemaker and has a secure
21:05
Speaker 5: relationship attachment. Finally, I want to challenge you. Take your
21:08
Speaker 5: work in progress and see if you can apply these
21:12
Speaker 5: attachment theories to your characters. Then put your results down
21:16
Speaker 5: in the comments underneath the episode, and thank you William,
21:20
Speaker 5: Laura and Jesse.
21:21
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. John Meyer. Now let's talk to
21:25
Speaker 3: Mark Stevens. Mark Stevens, Welcome to the podcast.
21:35
Speaker 2: Thanks Emelie for having me, appreciate.
21:38
Speaker 3: It, Thank you for coming. All right, traditional first question,
21:41
Speaker 3: if you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
21:45
Speaker 3: would it be.
21:47
Speaker 2: Get yourself a network. The words don't matter, the writing
21:51
Speaker 2: will come. Get yourself a network. Get yourself friends in
21:54
Speaker 2: the writing world, if they're fellow aspiring writers, if they're
21:59
Speaker 2: anybody you can find who's a published writer. Chances are
22:03
Speaker 2: they're going to help and give you help and introduce
22:06
Speaker 2: you to people and make contacts and encourage you and
22:10
Speaker 2: read your stuff when it's raw, read your stuff when
22:13
Speaker 2: it's better, and read your stuff when it keeps getting better,
22:17
Speaker 2: and be your cheerleader and hold you accountable for producing
22:21
Speaker 2: some copy and encourage you to keep writing. There's plenty
22:25
Speaker 2: of writing advice out there about the nuts and bolts
22:29
Speaker 2: and making scenes or making great cliffhanger endings, whatever it
22:33
Speaker 2: might be. But build your network, build it early.
22:37
Speaker 3: That's great advice. Well, of course I love that, because
22:39
Speaker 3: that's what writer con is kind of all about me
22:43
Speaker 3: meet up with some like minded people and help one
22:46
Speaker 3: another and it usually works. Now, you had several careers
22:51
Speaker 3: before you turn to writing. I think you were in
22:53
Speaker 3: public relations and you're a reporter. You were in TV
22:57
Speaker 3: news producing, right. Did you enjoy all that or and
23:04
Speaker 3: have you left it behind now or.
23:07
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I've had the luckiest career. From about sixth
23:10
Speaker 2: grade on, I knew I wanted to be a reporter.
23:13
Speaker 2: I thought there was something, you know, just so interesting
23:16
Speaker 2: and kind of just I don't think I thought it
23:19
Speaker 2: was romantic at the time, but I loved the idea
23:22
Speaker 2: of traveling and going to see things and learning about
23:25
Speaker 2: the world. And my mother would bring home the Boston
23:28
Speaker 2: Evening Globe. Of course, this is a long time ago,
23:30
Speaker 2: because there was an evening paper, but I was in
23:33
Speaker 2: the sixth grade and I'd take it to the couch
23:34
Speaker 2: and go read the evening paper. In sixth grade and
23:38
Speaker 2: just always wanted to be a reporter. I worked from
23:40
Speaker 2: my high school newspaper, I worked for my college newspaper.
23:43
Speaker 2: I was a full time journalist a couple of days
23:45
Speaker 2: after I graduated, and yeah, I just thought it would
23:50
Speaker 2: be a reporter forever. I spent the first twenty years
23:52
Speaker 2: in journalism, oh yeah, and four different organizations, including working
24:00
Speaker 2: for National News organization public broadcasting but still National News.
24:05
Speaker 2: And then I switched over, much to my surprise, into
24:09
Speaker 2: school public relations. I was shocked by that switch, but
24:14
Speaker 2: I really had a great career both in journalism one
24:19
Speaker 2: side of the fence throwing angernades on the other side
24:22
Speaker 2: of the fence catching a grenades as a public relations
24:26
Speaker 2: person trying to keep them from not exploding. But yeah,
24:31
Speaker 2: so no, I'm still do a little bit of pr
24:34
Speaker 2: and still actually do a little bit of journalism too.
24:36
Speaker 3: But somehow along the way you turned your hand to
24:40
Speaker 3: writing fiction. How did that happen?
24:43
Speaker 2: It happened in nineteen eighty three. Gulp, I shouldn't even
24:46
Speaker 2: say that out loud. Yeah. Always been a reader of
24:54
Speaker 2: books as a kid. My parents were both librarians. If
24:58
Speaker 2: you can imagine growing up in such a wonderful as
25:00
Speaker 2: old as that, I was the middle boy. I caught
25:02
Speaker 2: the reading bug, but never really thought I could write
25:06
Speaker 2: anything until somebody handed me a mystery. I didn't really
25:09
Speaker 2: know mysteries or crime fiction or anything like that until
25:13
Speaker 2: somebody handed me a Patricia Heismith novel in nineteen eighty three,
25:17
Speaker 2: and I started devouring crime fiction, and I thought, I
25:22
Speaker 2: think I could try this, at least take a stab
25:25
Speaker 2: at it. It's a much longer story than that, but
25:28
Speaker 2: it took another twenty three years to get published, but
25:32
Speaker 2: that's not averaging. Yep, I did get published, and yepantastic.
25:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to talk about all that crime
25:42
Speaker 3: fiction for sure, and your new novel that's hovering over
25:45
Speaker 3: my shoulder right now. But I just have to say,
25:48
Speaker 3: you wrote an absolutely acclaimed baseball novel, right how'd that
25:52
Speaker 3: come about?
25:55
Speaker 2: Well, that came about the same guy who lured me
25:58
Speaker 2: over from the world of journalism to school district public relations.
26:01
Speaker 2: He was superintendent at them for public schools in the
26:05
Speaker 2: mid nineteen nineties, and he offered me a chance to
26:07
Speaker 2: come work with him. Smart, thoughtful, even keel guy, not showy,
26:13
Speaker 2: not boisterous, not an egomaniac, just the opposite of all that.
26:18
Speaker 2: But he ran this huge organization. I really respected the
26:21
Speaker 2: heck out of him, went to work for him. We
26:23
Speaker 2: became friends. In fact, the reason we became friends is
26:27
Speaker 2: because he spotted me reading a mystery novel one time
26:31
Speaker 2: outside of a board meeting. They were in a closed session,
26:34
Speaker 2: executive session, and I had hours to kill. This is
26:37
Speaker 2: pre internet, and I was reading a mystery novel and
26:40
Speaker 2: he came over since I loved that book, and we
26:42
Speaker 2: became friends. He hired me over. We were friends from
26:46
Speaker 2: the mid nineteen nineties on, and when we were having
26:50
Speaker 2: lunch one day out in the parking in Burrito, he
26:52
Speaker 2: casually said, you should write a book about a novel
26:56
Speaker 2: about a pitcher who ruins the game of baseball. And
27:00
Speaker 2: I casually said, what do you mean? And he said,
27:03
Speaker 2: you know, imagine a pitcher who throws the baseball so
27:06
Speaker 2: fast that there's no time left to swing, which, at
27:10
Speaker 2: the top speed of pitching today, it's just incredible feat
27:14
Speaker 2: that a batter even manages to get a bat on
27:17
Speaker 2: a ball, because it's such a hard, hard thing to do,
27:20
Speaker 2: and if you just up that speed level a little bit,
27:22
Speaker 2: there's literally no time for the bat to come around,
27:26
Speaker 2: so it would be an existential threat to the game.
27:29
Speaker 2: And I went home that night and I kind of
27:31
Speaker 2: liked it, but I can't say I loved it. But
27:33
Speaker 2: then another part of the book just kind of came
27:36
Speaker 2: to me, and I called him back the next day
27:38
Speaker 2: and bounced that idea off him. He loved that second
27:42
Speaker 2: half of the idea, and then I called my agent.
27:44
Speaker 2: My agent said, stop everything and write that book. Oh sweet, Yeah,
27:52
Speaker 2: good agent who actually had experience in the minor league
27:54
Speaker 2: system with the New York Yankees as a chief operating
27:57
Speaker 2: officer for the Staten Island Yankees. Baseball love baseball, and
28:02
Speaker 2: he liked the book as well and managed to get
28:04
Speaker 2: it sold.
28:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, fantastic.
28:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, so your latest book is titled No Light Lasts Forever.
28:15
Speaker 4: Tell us about that one.
28:17
Speaker 2: Well, the idea is basically two characters of protagonist and antagonist.
28:25
Speaker 2: Maybe a start with the antagonist because it's a little
28:27
Speaker 2: bit unusual. It's a retired serial killer, a guy who
28:32
Speaker 2: has committed his murders. He has stopped for fifteen years.
28:37
Speaker 2: He's gone off to reform himself kind of sort of
28:42
Speaker 2: and join the civilized world and kind of disappear into
28:46
Speaker 2: the urban landscape, so to speak, as just another guy.
28:51
Speaker 2: And he wants to go down in history as somebody
28:54
Speaker 2: who was successful, like many serial killers out there who
28:57
Speaker 2: become infamous and have drinks after them and things like that.
29:03
Speaker 2: In the other corner is a TV reporter, a female
29:07
Speaker 2: TV reporter who's a veteran. She's been around. She thinks
29:10
Speaker 2: she's graduated from covering crime fiction to going on to
29:14
Speaker 2: cover meteor topics like the environment, things like that, and
29:18
Speaker 2: one day she gets drawn into a hostage taking situation
29:20
Speaker 2: on live TV. He does a few things that are
29:24
Speaker 2: out of what the cops are asking her to do.
29:27
Speaker 2: The tragedy happens, she gets suspended from her station and
29:32
Speaker 2: she is on the outs from her TV station, and
29:36
Speaker 2: right then brand new serial killer case emerges. Our retired
29:42
Speaker 2: serial killer knows he did not do it, so he
29:46
Speaker 2: needs help clearing his name and making sure that this
29:48
Speaker 2: new victim is not attached to his legacy, and he
29:51
Speaker 2: certainly doesn't want the cops re energized around investigating the
29:55
Speaker 2: whole thing. So he contacts her, and of course, at
30:00
Speaker 2: first she's like, you know, he thinks he needs help,
30:03
Speaker 2: and he's going to ask her to help her figure
30:05
Speaker 2: out who did this latest one. Of course, she is like,
30:08
Speaker 2: no way, no, how are you the guy? I don't
30:11
Speaker 2: believe you through these encrypted messages that are coming through.
30:15
Speaker 2: So he figures out a pretty bold way to prove
30:17
Speaker 2: to her that it's him, And once he is convinced
30:21
Speaker 2: her that he's the real deal, it's kind of off
30:24
Speaker 2: to the races, and you know, she he is feeding
30:28
Speaker 2: her information, but she also is trying to figure out
30:30
Speaker 2: who he is right now.
30:32
Speaker 3: It's a terrific premise. I start. I will have to
30:36
Speaker 3: admit I didn't finish, but I got well into it
30:38
Speaker 3: when I got my advanced copy and it was just
30:42
Speaker 3: absolutely rivetting and full of surprises, plot twists. How do
30:47
Speaker 3: you come up with that stuff?
30:50
Speaker 2: Well, for me, it's all organic. I have no idea
30:54
Speaker 2: where it's going.
30:57
Speaker 3: That's just what the listeners want to hear is well,
31:00
Speaker 3: go to the store and I pay a twenty dollars
31:02
Speaker 3: fee every month. But that's how it works right now.
31:06
Speaker 2: It's just you know, just thinking of all the possibilities
31:09
Speaker 2: in every given situation, and if the current, you know,
31:13
Speaker 2: and plot environment is rich enough, you should have some options.
31:18
Speaker 2: And it's always better to turn up the heat a
31:21
Speaker 2: little bit than to cool it down. It's always better
31:23
Speaker 2: to think of what is the worst thing that could
31:26
Speaker 2: happen right now for either character, and what is the
31:29
Speaker 2: last thing they want to have happened, and consider that
31:33
Speaker 2: as a possibility in every every moment.
31:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, So with all those plot twists and all of
31:41
Speaker 4: the turns going on in your book, how do you
31:45
Speaker 4: start your project? I mean, you said you're kind of
31:48
Speaker 4: it comes very organically to you. Are you saying that
31:51
Speaker 4: you're a pantser versus a planner? I mean, do you
31:54
Speaker 4: start with an outline or how do you approach a
31:56
Speaker 4: new project?
31:58
Speaker 2: Yeah? If I don't know what the word outline even means,
32:01
Speaker 2: I have, you know, I could guess I could look
32:04
Speaker 2: it up, and I I'm just mystified by people. Outline.
32:08
Speaker 2: I think there's it must be some alien creatures from
32:12
Speaker 2: a distant dark planet who know how to do that.
32:15
Speaker 2: I am baffled by that whole notion, and I kind
32:20
Speaker 2: of respect it. But for me, if I were to
32:22
Speaker 2: have outlined, I would have in my mind entertained myself
32:25
Speaker 2: all the way to the end of the book, and
32:27
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I don't know if I'd be motivated to
32:29
Speaker 2: write it anymore, because I would know me, I write
32:32
Speaker 2: to kind of entertain myself and to see where it's going.
32:35
Speaker 2: So and people ask me if you ever write out
32:38
Speaker 2: a sequence, And even those people are just I think
32:41
Speaker 2: they're crazy and need to be put away, because there's
32:44
Speaker 2: just impossible for me to imagine any other way than
32:47
Speaker 2: starting with a beginning the beginning might change, but then
32:51
Speaker 2: following that along and at least developing a draft. But
32:55
Speaker 2: people who can write, like, oh, I thought of a
32:57
Speaker 2: middle scene, or I thought of the ending, so I
32:59
Speaker 2: wrote the ending first. I'm I'm I don't know what
33:02
Speaker 2: school they went to.
33:04
Speaker 4: I'm with you on that I've had. I've had that
33:06
Speaker 4: question asked of me at conferences and such, and I
33:11
Speaker 4: I can't think of any time that I ever stopped
33:13
Speaker 4: where I was at and went to write another scene
33:16
Speaker 4: down the line, thinking I'll use this later, but now
33:20
Speaker 4: the story kind of develops in my mind. So notes
33:23
Speaker 4: or anything, or do you really just open up your
33:26
Speaker 4: laptop and just start typing?
33:28
Speaker 2: You just go, yeah, no notes. I mean, I mean, sure,
33:32
Speaker 2: I'll keep track of certain things or names or characteristics
33:35
Speaker 2: things like that, but it basically your everything you've written
33:39
Speaker 2: at that point is one big set of notes to
33:43
Speaker 2: go back to. And if your characters are clear enough
33:46
Speaker 2: in your mind and sharp enough in your mind, you
33:49
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to go back too often. I mean figuring
33:51
Speaker 2: out little logistics and making sure that it's all consistent
33:55
Speaker 2: in the end, but that can come out in the
33:57
Speaker 2: editing process. So yeah, yeah, it's just sort of like
34:01
Speaker 2: a story just unfolding, and I just want to see
34:04
Speaker 2: where it goes. And so I.
34:07
Speaker 4: Don't know, that's fascinating. It's intriguing to me. We interview
34:11
Speaker 4: a lot of people, and I think we get a
34:13
Speaker 4: different approach from almost everyone, and I think it's just
34:18
Speaker 4: wonderfully brilliant that so many people can come at it
34:21
Speaker 4: from a different place and yet end up with a
34:26
Speaker 4: great book at the end. What does a typical writing
34:29
Speaker 4: day look like for you, like, what's your process?
34:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have been at the five Am Writers Club
34:37
Speaker 2: since nineteen eighty three that I realized I was working,
34:42
Speaker 2: you know, full time. We start having kids. We had
34:46
Speaker 2: two daughters in ninety two and ninety six, and you know,
34:51
Speaker 2: I realized that if I was going to make a
34:53
Speaker 2: commitment to this, that the only way I was going
34:55
Speaker 2: to be able to be productive on a regular basis
34:57
Speaker 2: was to get up and get at it for two
34:59
Speaker 2: hours every day, weekends too. I mean, I don't kill
35:04
Speaker 2: myself or beat myself up if I miss a day
35:06
Speaker 2: or something's happening. I do like on the road, traveling,
35:10
Speaker 2: even you know, just getting up from the hotel room
35:12
Speaker 2: and going downstairs to the coffee shop. That's just it
35:15
Speaker 2: just becomes part of your system. And and you know,
35:20
Speaker 2: if you're if your writer brain is thinking about the
35:23
Speaker 2: story and where you are in the story, you've got
35:26
Speaker 2: to go produce so you can keep filling in that
35:29
Speaker 2: next question for the day of where we go from here.
35:33
Speaker 2: So it's a dining room table. It's used to be.
35:36
Speaker 2: I wrote by hand first, like six or so books.
35:41
Speaker 2: We're all by hand, and I've slowly switched over to
35:44
Speaker 2: a laptop because because of the because of the I
35:48
Speaker 2: started to get some deadlines from editors and things like that.
35:52
Speaker 2: So it's a little bit faster. Good problem to have, though, Yes, yeah, yeah, indeed.
35:59
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:01
Speaker 4: I also still like writing in my spiral notebook, my
36:04
Speaker 4: first draft and then transitioning that into the word documents.
36:10
Speaker 4: My process hasn't changed, and I don't think that it probably.
36:13
Speaker 2: Will excellent good for you. I wish I was still
36:15
Speaker 2: there in some ways. I love that. People ask why
36:18
Speaker 2: do you like that? And I say, I love two
36:20
Speaker 2: things about it. No possibility for jumping on the internet,
36:25
Speaker 2: because it's just my notebook, dining room table and the pen.
36:28
Speaker 2: And the other crazy thing is I love the sound
36:30
Speaker 2: of writing. It sounds crazy, it's just that little scratch.
36:34
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm there with you.
36:38
Speaker 2: Now.
36:38
Speaker 4: You wrote this novel in present tense? Is that right?
36:41
Speaker 3: I noticed that too? Yeah?
36:43
Speaker 4: Did you? Was that a challenge for you?
36:45
Speaker 3: Or like?
36:46
Speaker 4: What led you to make that artistic choice?
36:51
Speaker 2: Okay, quick, quick story. I'll make this as fast as
36:53
Speaker 2: I can. This story actually is a book I started
36:57
Speaker 2: writing in two thousand and one. Idea for this book
37:00
Speaker 2: came to me in two thousand and one, and I
37:04
Speaker 2: got a couple of little odd offers from agents at
37:07
Speaker 2: the time, and I basically shut that process down, and
37:10
Speaker 2: I just kept in my back pocket and kept working
37:12
Speaker 2: on it, and I got in the rhythm of writing
37:16
Speaker 2: my mystery series, and then when that ended in lots
37:21
Speaker 2: of little agent back and forth I won't go into.
37:25
Speaker 2: When it finally sold and went to its first editor
37:29
Speaker 2: in April of twenty fourteen, thirteen months ago. It's very
37:34
Speaker 2: first editor. My agent had had it for about six years.
37:37
Speaker 2: He always liked the novel. We got into the baseball
37:40
Speaker 2: novel produced that the editor who liked the baseball novel
37:43
Speaker 2: didn't want to see my crime fiction. So I wrote
37:45
Speaker 2: another novel for her, which is still being shopped because
37:48
Speaker 2: she didn't care for the follow up, and so I
37:53
Speaker 2: pulled out the no lie When it sold in April
37:58
Speaker 2: of twenty fourteen, and I opened it up and it
38:01
Speaker 2: was in past tense, and I couldn't I knew the
38:05
Speaker 2: minute I saw the opening pages, I said, this is
38:08
Speaker 2: wrong I had written. I just didn't feel right. So
38:13
Speaker 2: I in a month, I converted the whole thing to
38:15
Speaker 2: present tense without even asking the editor if that was okay.
38:20
Speaker 2: I quickly bounced it off. My agent showed him a
38:22
Speaker 2: couple of pages and he said, that's absolutely the right
38:24
Speaker 2: way to go. And I've had many people, you know,
38:29
Speaker 2: comment on it. I just think it lends an immediacy
38:33
Speaker 2: to it. It was it's tricky in spots to pull off,
38:37
Speaker 2: but it just adds a little little level of urgency
38:41
Speaker 2: for a thriller. It's kind of a mystery, but it's
38:43
Speaker 2: also got some thriller vibes, I think in terms of
38:47
Speaker 2: how its structured. So I just I just knew. I
38:52
Speaker 2: I mean, I really almost recoiled when I was reading it.
38:55
Speaker 1: Past tense.
38:57
Speaker 4: I see a lot of books we're seeing a shift
38:59
Speaker 4: to that. I mean, five ten years ago, it was
39:03
Speaker 4: far more rare to see a book written in present tents.
39:07
Speaker 4: But we're we're moving more and more in that direction.
39:10
Speaker 4: It's I'm even getting used to it. It used to
39:14
Speaker 4: jar me when I would open a book and start
39:16
Speaker 4: reading and it was in present tense. But I'm getting
39:19
Speaker 4: accustomed to it. I can adapt. This is going, This
39:24
Speaker 4: is your is your third novel? Have I got that right?
39:28
Speaker 2: This is number seven? Seven? Yeah, seven five books, five
39:34
Speaker 2: books in the mystery series, Alison Coyle Mystery series.
39:37
Speaker 4: Then the Fireballer and then this, So, what are some
39:42
Speaker 4: things that you've learned so far? I mean, that's a
39:44
Speaker 4: pretty good writing journey. Are there some things you can
39:47
Speaker 4: share for our listeners?
39:50
Speaker 2: Well, even even after being published, you get better, At
39:55
Speaker 2: least for me, I must be. I'm a really slow learner,
39:59
Speaker 2: but reading some of my things that did get published.
40:03
Speaker 2: In fact, when the five books in my Mystery series
40:07
Speaker 2: worked with three different small publishers, the last of which
40:10
Speaker 2: was Midnight, Inc. Which medium sized national house out of
40:15
Speaker 2: Minnesota that had about eighty or so crime fiction authors,
40:18
Speaker 2: but they shut down.
40:21
Speaker 4: Another mine was published by then I knew where you
40:24
Speaker 4: were going with that.
40:26
Speaker 2: And so I got my rights back from all three
40:28
Speaker 2: publishers and I republished all five books under my own
40:31
Speaker 2: name to keep them alive. And thank God for the
40:34
Speaker 2: tools and systems of independent publishing to be able to
40:36
Speaker 2: do that. But when I republished book one, I had
40:40
Speaker 2: to rewrite it. My standards had changed, my idea of
40:48
Speaker 2: sentence craft, paragraph organization, extraneous crap, just things that matter
40:55
Speaker 2: and did matter. I knew I had to rewrite it.
40:58
Speaker 2: I couldn't put that back out and feel good about it. So,
41:03
Speaker 2: you know, even if you think you're good, I would
41:06
Speaker 2: really urge you to leave open the possibility of the
41:08
Speaker 2: fact that you might get better and to be keeping
41:12
Speaker 2: open that open mind, will you know, benefit you for
41:16
Speaker 2: a long long time. And you know, just I would
41:22
Speaker 2: if being open mind to your own level of of
41:27
Speaker 2: what quality you're shooting for, and also really being open
41:30
Speaker 2: minded to the editors you get to work with when
41:32
Speaker 2: you sell a book.
41:33
Speaker 3: And you have just described exactly why I have never
41:37
Speaker 3: reread any of my early novels and never will, I mind,
41:43
Speaker 3: I wouldn't love the experience. So before we sign off, Mark,
41:48
Speaker 3: what's coming up next or what are you working on now?
41:51
Speaker 2: Well, the editor's reading a sequel. I thought it was
41:54
Speaker 2: a standalone. She told me, no, this is not a standalone.
41:57
Speaker 2: You need to find a way to keep this story.
42:00
Speaker 2: It'll be a tight three book trilogy if all goes well,
42:03
Speaker 2: over and out with my main character, Flynn Martin, and
42:07
Speaker 2: then the uh, there's a rock and roll there's a
42:10
Speaker 2: books in the world of rock and roll that my
42:11
Speaker 2: agent is selling right now.
42:13
Speaker 3: It's on the market. So that's what's next crossed. Yeah,
42:17
Speaker 3: I want to read that one. Thank you so much
42:20
Speaker 3: for being on the podcast. Appreciate it.
42:22
Speaker 2: Thank you for all you do. Yeah, you bet.
42:35
Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. This will probably be the
42:38
Speaker 3: last time this year you'll hear me talk about the
42:41
Speaker 3: writer Con cruise. But that's because it's about to happen.
42:44
Speaker 3: So if you're going to join us, join up fast,
42:46
Speaker 3: and I really hope you will. We have worked double
42:49
Speaker 3: hard to find a cruise that is beautiful but affordable
42:53
Speaker 3: and still leaves us plenty of time to do the
42:56
Speaker 3: writing work. In fact, I made the schedule yesterday and
42:59
Speaker 3: mapped out we're at sea this day, so we'll meet more.
43:02
Speaker 3: We're in sick of that day, so we'll just meet
43:05
Speaker 3: have the boat pulls out. You know, you'll have plenty
43:07
Speaker 3: of time for sight seeing and some beautiful country, but
43:12
Speaker 3: we're also gonna roll up the sleeves and get some
43:16
Speaker 3: real writing work done, trying to take what you've got
43:20
Speaker 3: and push it to the next level. That's May thirty
43:24
Speaker 3: first through June seventh, that leaves from Seattle, and it's
43:27
Speaker 3: not too long too late to sign up. Just go
43:30
Speaker 3: to Writercon dot com and look at the cruise page
43:35
Speaker 3: and if you have any questions click on contact and
43:38
Speaker 3: I'll get back to.
43:38
Speaker 1: You as soon as possible.
43:39
Speaker 3: All right, you know.
43:42
Speaker 4: What, it's almost too late, so don't wait too much longer.
43:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you'll wait and wait.
43:49
Speaker 4: Where else are you gonna like work on your book
43:51
Speaker 4: and get to see whales like it's gonna be so
43:54
Speaker 4: much fun And I'm so ready ready to get by
43:58
Speaker 4: you guys?
44:00
Speaker 1: Ready?
44:00
Speaker 3: A valid point? All right? Everybody? Until next time, keep
44:04
Speaker 3: writing and remember you cannot fail if you refuse to quit.
44:11
Speaker 3: See you next time.