Latest / How Hard Can It Be? with Diana Maria Riva / Bonnie Hammer on Becoming the Queen of Cable, Dreams that Keep you Stuck, and Why It’s Never a Permanent “No”

Transcript

Bonnie Hammer on Becoming the Queen of Cable, Dreams that Keep you Stuck, and Why It’s Never a Permanent “No” · How Hard Can It Be? with Diana Maria Riva

0:00
Speaker 1: When it comes to our careers, we're faced with many
0:03
Speaker 1: pivotal crossroads along the way, especially in this chapter where
0:05
Speaker 1: we can feel very stuck or dissatisfied. My next guest
0:09
Speaker 1: was once referred to as the queen of cable, and
0:12
Speaker 1: she climbed a ladder of success that began with babysitting
0:14
Speaker 1: a dog. Well, all those experiences in between led her
0:17
Speaker 1: to writing a New York Times bestseller that exposes the
0:21
Speaker 1: many lies that women are faced with at work and
0:24
Speaker 1: the truths we need to succeed. Today, we'll cover some
0:27
Speaker 1: of those lies and crossroads and ask, how hard can
0:30
Speaker 1: it be? Welcome to this episode of How Hard Can
0:37
Speaker 1: It Be? I'm your host, Deanna Maria Riva, and we
0:40
Speaker 1: are talking about midlife's most fantastic bullshit. Yeah, you know
0:45
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. I'm very excited to have my
0:48
Speaker 1: next guest on here. She is an author, but even
0:52
Speaker 1: more impactfully, she is a businesswoman and a media exec
0:55
Speaker 1: from vice chairman of NBC Universal. Started off as a
0:59
Speaker 1: photojournalist on set with dogs. And we'll tell you that story.
1:04
Speaker 1: But one of her biggest accomplishments, aside from being a mother.
1:08
Speaker 1: as well, is writing the book, 15 Lies Women Are
1:12
Speaker 1: Told at Work and the Truth We Need to Succeed.
1:14
Speaker 1: And as you can see, I have it marked, highlighted.
1:18
Speaker 1: And I also have to tell you, Bonnie Hammer, that
1:21
Speaker 1: you could have essentially written an entire Lord of the
1:25
Speaker 1: Rings style anthology of 15 Lies. And I have a
1:28
Speaker 1: few suggestions for you. You could have written 15 lies
1:32
Speaker 1: about marriage and the truth we need to succeed. 15
1:35
Speaker 1: lies about divorce, but I think there's more than 15.
1:38
Speaker 1: 15 lies about raising children. 15 lies about single parenting.
1:41
Speaker 1: And 15 lies about dating over 50, which I don't
1:44
Speaker 1: think you needed to do, but I did so I
1:46
Speaker 1: can be your guest writer.
1:47
Speaker 2: I dated over 40.
1:48
Speaker 1: Okay, listen, the game is rough when you're over 40.
1:52
Speaker 1: Did you do the dating app?
1:54
Speaker 2: No, because now you're going to make me say how
1:57
Speaker 2: old I am. No. We did not have dating apps
2:00
Speaker 2: when I was, you know, divorced and before I met Dale.
2:05
Speaker 2: You did it through friends, friends of friends, et cetera. Yes.
2:09
Speaker 2: But you didn't go on and do it that way.
2:12
Speaker 1: The better way.
2:13
Speaker 2: Which means I'm old, but that's okay.
2:15
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad that you didn't have to. I did
2:19
Speaker 1: it once, and it's because I lost a bet with
2:21
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, and I said— If I lose, she said,
2:24
Speaker 1: if you lose, you have to go on this dating app.
2:27
Speaker 2: I'm not confident enough to do that. I would not
2:29
Speaker 2: have been able to. I would have taken every rejection
2:32
Speaker 2: as a personal trauma. I could not have done that.
2:35
Speaker 1: By the way, it's so interesting to hear you say
2:38
Speaker 1: that because welcoming Bonnie Hammer to the show, writing this book,
2:43
Speaker 1: I would have never believed for one second that there
2:45
Speaker 1: was something that wasn't confident about you. That's what's so
2:48
Speaker 1: great about this book. This book, by the way, It's
2:52
Speaker 1: a workbook that I implore you to give to your
2:55
Speaker 1: daughter as she's entering the workforce, whatever line of work
2:59
Speaker 1: she's getting into. But it's also a great workbook to
3:03
Speaker 1: come back to and check in on yourself. Where am I?
3:07
Speaker 1: What resonates with me? And in particular with women in midlife,
3:11
Speaker 1: where we're at, we're not retired. Society would like to
3:13
Speaker 1: tell us we're about to retire. We're not retired. And yet,
3:17
Speaker 1: Check in and see where you are and how this applies.
3:21
Speaker 1: What made you write it, aside from you were pissed
3:23
Speaker 1: on a roller coaster?
3:25
Speaker 2: Well, that's really true. I mean, I was one of
3:27
Speaker 2: the only women on this crazy roller coaster because I
3:30
Speaker 2: took a dare. I took a dare from Jimmy Horowitz,
3:35
Speaker 2: who I adore, who does all the legal stuff for
3:38
Speaker 2: the film division of NBCU. And I hate heights. I
3:43
Speaker 2: don't like speed, except when I'm driving, I always speed. Yeah.
3:47
Speaker 2: But he just said, what do you mean you're not
3:50
Speaker 2: going to go? I said, it scares me. I dare you.
3:53
Speaker 2: Anybody dares me, I do it.
3:55
Speaker 1: Game on.
3:56
Speaker 2: But what I realized walking on it and then surviving
4:02
Speaker 2: it getting off, I was virtually the only woman on
4:06
Speaker 2: that ride. And it was an offsite of NBCU. So
4:10
Speaker 2: there were a lot of women executives and guys there.
4:13
Speaker 2: And I start to think about, other than fear, which, granted,
4:17
Speaker 2: I understand, why was it that all of my friends
4:22
Speaker 2: and colleagues were nicely sitting by their little cocktail tables
4:26
Speaker 2: having a glass of wine, and I come off this
4:29
Speaker 2: thing with my hair out to here, my face completely red,
4:33
Speaker 2: but proud of myself because I took a dare. And
4:36
Speaker 2: I started thinking about two things. One is women don't
4:41
Speaker 2: like to mix– work and or have been told they
4:45
Speaker 2: shouldn't mix work and play. Now, I'm not talking about
4:49
Speaker 2: work and pleasure, work and play. And I was trying
4:53
Speaker 2: to figure out why. And then I started thinking about
4:56
Speaker 2: all these other cliches that we've been brought up to
4:59
Speaker 2: believe are true, that is misinformation, that if you follow it,
5:06
Speaker 2: it basically leads to self-sabotage in your career. And that's
5:10
Speaker 2: really how it started on a roller coaster. But I've also,
5:14
Speaker 2: within my world and within my profession, I've always loved
5:18
Speaker 2: mentoring people, in particular women. And I figured this was
5:22
Speaker 2: my way of paying it forward. I can't mentor every
5:26
Speaker 2: woman I would like to touch. But it was my
5:28
Speaker 2: way of, you know, paying it forward to those women
5:32
Speaker 2: who are trying to navigate a world which right now
5:34
Speaker 2: is even tougher than we've ever experienced because of so
5:39
Speaker 2: many different reasons.
5:40
Speaker 1: You know, and when you talk about cliche, I want
5:43
Speaker 1: to dive into the first one that hit me because
5:45
Speaker 1: this is the target audience for this. Well, like I said, millennials,
5:50
Speaker 1: you're heading right here. Pay attention. Gen Z should listen
5:53
Speaker 1: and learn and do differently. But one of the things
5:56
Speaker 1: that I want to dive into, because this is where
5:58
Speaker 1: I'm at with this. And you talk about, see, I
6:01
Speaker 1: have to get my notes because I'm just.
6:02
Speaker 2: Very proud of you. That was for a lot of notes. Oh, no.
6:05
Speaker 1: You're a good girl.
6:06
Speaker 2: No, girl.
6:07
Speaker 1: I know how to do homework. I'm an actor, but
6:08
Speaker 1: I know how to study. People who dream, we close
6:11
Speaker 1: ourselves off. The non-dreamers stay open. Dreams guide us, motivate us,
6:17
Speaker 1: and serve as a reminder of what's most important. And
6:21
Speaker 1: achieving them feels great. But it can paralyze you or
6:24
Speaker 1: keep you in a stuck place.
6:27
Speaker 2: But I... The way people define dreams is very different.
6:32
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer that if you only follow your
6:36
Speaker 2: dreams in life, you're basically walking through life without a consciousness.
6:41
Speaker 2: It's like.
6:44
Speaker 2: There's a big difference between following dreams, following passions, following interests,
6:50
Speaker 2: and succeeding in the world. And I believe that you
6:54
Speaker 2: can't be what you can't see, and you can't dream
6:58
Speaker 2: what you don't know. So when you're young, the dreams
7:02
Speaker 2: you have limit the possibilities of your life. And you
7:06
Speaker 2: can sleepwalk through your entire life if you just follow
7:10
Speaker 2: the dream you had at 6, 12, 16. Mm-hmm. Because
7:14
Speaker 2: when you think about where your dreams came from, what
7:17
Speaker 2: your parents told you, what a school teacher told you,
7:21
Speaker 2: what a course in maybe even college led you to believe.
7:25
Speaker 2: But if you haven't experienced what that means in real life,
7:30
Speaker 2: you're limiting yourself to all these other possibilities that if
7:33
Speaker 2: you just go to the right or the left, you
7:36
Speaker 2: can experience and find your adult dream. Yes.
7:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
7:40
Speaker 2: I think people also feel that if they don't follow
7:44
Speaker 2: their dreams, what are they going to do? My advice
7:48
Speaker 2: is your dream doesn't have to be your job. You
7:51
Speaker 2: don't have to give up a dream. It doesn't have
7:54
Speaker 2: to be your boss. It could still be a passion
7:57
Speaker 2: that you do when you live out, but it doesn't
7:59
Speaker 2: have to be how you make your living.
8:00
Speaker 1: No, and you bring that up a lot. You talk
8:03
Speaker 1: about how dreams are like drugs. They're hard to quit.
8:08
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of us, this generation
8:13
Speaker 1: in particular, we're the regents of resourcefulness. We get things done.
8:16
Speaker 1: We're told the formula and we enact it. And it's
8:19
Speaker 1: hard for us to kind of stray outside of that,
8:21
Speaker 1: maybe because of opportunity or what we sleptwalk through or
8:26
Speaker 1: because it's been taking care of ourselves and our children.
8:29
Speaker 1: So we need to just play it safe. But you
8:32
Speaker 1: do get to a point where I think, you know,
8:34
Speaker 1: you're at a crossroad. And what do I want to do?
8:36
Speaker 1: I haven't done it. And maybe it's because I've ignored
8:38
Speaker 1: some of those off ramps that you talk about. Like,
8:40
Speaker 1: take it. What's the worst that can happen?
8:42
Speaker 2: It's opportunities. When I think about how I tripped into television,
8:47
Speaker 2: I was following my passion. I was taking photographs of
8:51
Speaker 2: kids on a set and a kid's television show. It
8:54
Speaker 2: was an entertainment and math show in Boston. I was
8:58
Speaker 2: working freelance, which back then meant you were working for
9:03
Speaker 2: free for credits for a graduate program. And it wasn't
9:06
Speaker 2: until a couple of people got basically fired, I don't
9:09
Speaker 2: know the reasons why, that they just looked at me
9:12
Speaker 2: and said, do you want... You want a job. You
9:14
Speaker 2: want to be a production assistant, which, as you know,
9:16
Speaker 2: is as low as you can go in television. Right.
9:19
Speaker 2: And mine was lower than most because the talent I
9:22
Speaker 2: got to take care of was an untrained sheepdog named Winston.
9:27
Speaker 2: So I was cleaning up crap.
9:28
Speaker 1: Biggest diva on the set. Yes.
9:30
Speaker 2: So for me, when people say they don't like grunt work,
9:35
Speaker 2: they don't like to do crappy jobs— I literally had
9:42
Speaker 2: the crappiest job ever because I was cleaning up crap,
9:45
Speaker 2: but I did it with a smile. But what that
9:48
Speaker 2: did was allow my bosses, which were many, all from–
9:53
Speaker 2: this was Boston. The producer was from LA, the director
9:57
Speaker 2: was from LA. Because I had a good attitude, that's
10:00
Speaker 2: the only reason I got the next gig. Only reason.
10:03
Speaker 2: I smiled cleaning up dog crap.
10:06
Speaker 1: But it was genuine. You wanted to be there too.
10:08
Speaker 1: I think like, obviously, you would have taken it if
10:10
Speaker 1: you didn't want to explore something.
10:11
Speaker 2: I wanted to learn.
10:12
Speaker 1: There you go.
10:13
Speaker 2: And it was just a matter of, okay, I can
10:15
Speaker 2: always quit. I can always leave. I can always try
10:18
Speaker 2: to find something else. But I'm here. Why not? Right.
10:23
Speaker 1: So with women in this chapter, and we're stuck in
10:28
Speaker 1: this mindset of whatever the dream or the formula has been,
10:33
Speaker 1: and that fear of taking a risk, you talk about
10:39
Speaker 1: keeping up that hunger or that curiosity to want to
10:42
Speaker 1: learn more and to want to do something different. I
10:44
Speaker 1: am stuck in what I want to see for my
10:46
Speaker 1: career right now. And I'm afraid I'm being a little
10:48
Speaker 1: too rigid.
10:49
Speaker 2: Why? How? I mean, how do you feel you're stuck?
10:51
Speaker 2: And why are you putting parameters around her right now? Oh, boy.
10:56
Speaker 1: Here I go.
10:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interviewing you now.
10:57
Speaker 1: I know.
10:58
Speaker 2: I'm in trouble. Okay. Yeah.
10:59
Speaker 1: So I did all this homework, but not on myself.
11:03
Speaker 1: I actually think I'm stuck.
11:04
Speaker 2: Come on. Turn it around.
11:06
Speaker 1: You're like, I've seen it.
11:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:08
Speaker 1: This is why she has a bestselling book. I think
11:12
Speaker 1: because I know what I want to do and I
11:14
Speaker 1: know what I can do and I know what I'm
11:15
Speaker 1: worthy of doing. And so, and I feel I'm running
11:19
Speaker 1: out of time. And so when they came to me
11:22
Speaker 1: and said, why don't you pitch a podcast? I told,
11:26
Speaker 1: I had a guru tell me that. I had an
11:29
Speaker 1: exec tell me, do a podcast. I'm like, no, horrible answer,
11:33
Speaker 1: absolutely not. And then for a year, it kept popping up.
11:36
Speaker 1: And I thought, if I do that, I'm not going
11:38
Speaker 1: to be able to do this.
11:39
Speaker 2: I see. I think by doing it, first of all,
11:42
Speaker 2: you did open yourself up. Yes. And the number of
11:45
Speaker 2: people you can meet just by doing this that could
11:48
Speaker 2: kick other doors open is amazing. See, I'm a big believer.
11:53
Speaker 2: I think we have been brought up, your generation, definitely
11:57
Speaker 2: my generation. I do have years on you, my dear.
12:00
Speaker 2: We've been brought up with this notion of lateral growth,
12:04
Speaker 2: career ladder, upskill, promotion, raises. Everything is termed that you basically,
12:15
Speaker 2: you climb this ladder and you're going to hit this
12:17
Speaker 2: incredible place. The reality is you hit a ceiling. At
12:22
Speaker 2: that last rung, there's nothing left. And all you've done
12:27
Speaker 2: is learned, practiced, experienced a lateral growth process. But you
12:33
Speaker 2: don't have the skills to go right or left. I'm
12:36
Speaker 2: a huge believer in creating a web. Think of it
12:39
Speaker 2: as a spiderweb. where it becomes infinitely larger, but it
12:44
Speaker 2: gets higher, shorter, to the right, to the left. And
12:48
Speaker 2: it's this intricate thing which allows you to have so
12:52
Speaker 2: much varied experience. So when your company gets sold, when
12:58
Speaker 2: AI takes over your job, when the world just changes...
13:03
Speaker 2: You have other stuff to fall back on because you've
13:06
Speaker 2: experienced other stuff than your dream that led you to
13:11
Speaker 2: a specific place without very much other exposure. So I'm
13:17
Speaker 2: a big believer in trying stuff. Because guess what? You
13:20
Speaker 2: don't like it, you trip, you pick yourself up and
13:23
Speaker 2: you try something else. Something else. And you keep going.
13:26
Speaker 2: But the cumulative experience of it gets you a lot further.
13:30
Speaker 2: I mean, I took ridiculous stuff that I hated to
13:34
Speaker 2: do because it was nothing else in a much safer
13:38
Speaker 2: world way back when. And I'm talking 70s and 80s where,
13:41
Speaker 2: you know, I hate numbers. And I had to take
13:47
Speaker 2: a job just to buy time in between TV shows, kids'
13:50
Speaker 2: TV shows. So I did budget work. I hated every minute. Yes,
13:56
Speaker 2: we did have calculators back there, really. So I wasn't
13:59
Speaker 2: just using my fingers. But what it did do was
14:03
Speaker 2: when I, in my hindsight, if I had never worked
14:07
Speaker 2: on somebody else's budget, When I got to a point
14:10
Speaker 2: where I was producing my own shows, where I was hiring,
14:14
Speaker 2: if I didn't understand the inside and out of working
14:17
Speaker 2: a budget and somebody said to me, well, it's going
14:19
Speaker 2: to cost me yay many thousands of dollars to do that,
14:23
Speaker 2: I would have probably said yay or nay ignorantly. When
14:27
Speaker 2: that did start happening, I would look at it and say,
14:29
Speaker 2: there's no fracking way you can get that done in
14:31
Speaker 2: that budget. Go back and really give me a real number.
14:34
Speaker 2: That experience, which I hated, actually gave me such– a
14:38
Speaker 2: grounding of knowledge in an area I never would have had. Yes,
14:43
Speaker 2: I would have had somebody do that for me.
14:47
Speaker 1: You took that opportunity to learn.
14:49
Speaker 2: But the education was incredible for me.
15:02
Speaker 1: They called you the Queen of Cable. You produced some
15:05
Speaker 1: of the most historical shows ever in television. Suits was
15:10
Speaker 1: one of many, but, and, and you were there when
15:14
Speaker 1: streaming hit and then you created a ton of shows
15:17
Speaker 1: during that. That's not just one. That's not linear.
15:21
Speaker 2: That's no.
15:22
Speaker 1: And the webbing that came out of that, how did
15:25
Speaker 1: you web all the way to there?
15:28
Speaker 2: A lot of different reasons and different ways. If you
15:32
Speaker 2: think about it, so much I now can acknowledge because
15:36
Speaker 2: of hindsight, not because I was doing it purposefully. And
15:41
Speaker 2: a lot of the information of the book comes from
15:44
Speaker 2: the wealth of hindsight as opposed to— being so confident
15:49
Speaker 2: at the moment. But part of it was opportunity. Part
15:52
Speaker 2: of it was when I think about starting in kids TV,
15:56
Speaker 2: I never ever thought I'd get out of kids TV.
15:59
Speaker 2: But I tripped, literally tripped into the next job, which
16:02
Speaker 2: was morning talk. And I tripped into running it because
16:07
Speaker 2: somebody fell out. And I just happened to be there
16:09
Speaker 2: at the moment with no experience, but they gave me
16:12
Speaker 2: a shot. I kept zigzagging into different experiences and basically said,
16:19
Speaker 2: somehow I'll figure out a way to do it. But
16:21
Speaker 2: I never lied. I never lied to anybody who was
16:24
Speaker 2: interviewing me to say, oh, I've done that five times,
16:27
Speaker 2: or of course I know what I'm doing. I told
16:29
Speaker 2: the truth. I was able to say, you know, I've
16:32
Speaker 2: never done morning, you know, I don't, I know morning talk.
16:36
Speaker 2: I've watched it for years, but I've never produced for
16:39
Speaker 2: morning talk. I produce dogs and kids. But What I
16:43
Speaker 2: was able to do was hire those around me who
16:47
Speaker 2: knew a lot more than I did, but I was
16:50
Speaker 2: capable of managing them and let their strengths shine through
16:54
Speaker 2: as opposed to how to pretend I knew everything. So
16:58
Speaker 2: my openness kept letting me trip into different jobs, and
17:02
Speaker 2: each one led to another experience. Each one led to
17:06
Speaker 2: another relationship. But the other thing I think this generation
17:10
Speaker 2: doesn't like, I probably hated it when I was living
17:14
Speaker 2: through it but accepted it, was being willing to hear
17:19
Speaker 2: what other people said to me about me, about my work.
17:24
Speaker 2: And I started really believing in what I call tough
17:27
Speaker 2: love or challenging mentors. And if I am really honest
17:33
Speaker 2: myself or those tough people in my life– that ultimately
17:38
Speaker 2: led me to the confidence of being willing to try stuff, fail,
17:42
Speaker 2: pick myself up, try again, and keep moving. So I'm
17:45
Speaker 2: a big believer in having people around you who tell
17:47
Speaker 2: you the truth rather than pat you on the back
17:50
Speaker 2: and tell you how great you are and be your
17:52
Speaker 2: favorite cheerleader.
17:53
Speaker 1: And that's a two-part deal, though, because you, okay, let's
17:57
Speaker 1: say now you're in a place in your career, like
18:01
Speaker 1: myself or anyone else, and you know you want to
18:04
Speaker 1: do more, and there's an opportunity to do more. You
18:07
Speaker 1: take the criticism, you take the tough love, and then
18:10
Speaker 1: you talk about going for those opportunities. Go ahead, throw
18:15
Speaker 1: yourself into the ring, your hat into the ring, knowing
18:19
Speaker 1: your professional worth, which is different than your self-worth. We
18:23
Speaker 1: all know that our self-worth just has to be intact
18:25
Speaker 1: on a Tuesday.
18:27
Speaker 2: But you have to work your professional worth.
18:29
Speaker 1: You have to build that.
18:31
Speaker 2: You have to prove to somebody else that you're worthy.
18:35
Speaker 1: Yes.
18:35
Speaker 2: And that means... First of all, it's having a positive
18:38
Speaker 2: attitude about it. You know, understanding and admitting what you
18:43
Speaker 2: don't know, but you're willing to learn and you're a
18:45
Speaker 2: hard worker. It's all about attitude and willingness to try,
18:51
Speaker 2: but not lie. You know, the minute you tell somebody,
18:54
Speaker 2: you know, you can do something and you know what
18:56
Speaker 2: you're doing because you've done it and you trip and
18:59
Speaker 2: you lie. you lose more than just the job. You
19:03
Speaker 2: lose your integrity. And no one's going to take a
19:05
Speaker 2: chance on you again. So being honest about what you
19:07
Speaker 2: know and what you don't know, and then asking for
19:11
Speaker 2: help from people. What that does is make others want
19:14
Speaker 2: to take you under their wing because you've been honest,
19:17
Speaker 2: you're a hard worker, you have a good attitude. They
19:20
Speaker 2: want to teach you. And they become your bigger supporters.
19:23
Speaker 1: I think that.
19:27
Speaker 2: There is.
19:29
Speaker 1: Routine and there's also an intimidation factor because I do–
19:32
Speaker 1: my biggest complaint about women in this chapter and when
19:36
Speaker 1: we get here is that society is telling us one
19:39
Speaker 1: thing and it's typically pretty negative.
19:41
Speaker 2: And what are you hearing? Like what do you hear?
19:43
Speaker 1: I'm hearing society tell me that you are running out
19:46
Speaker 1: of time and it's– you know, you either wrap it
19:50
Speaker 1: up and get it now, which you do talk about,
19:53
Speaker 1: don't waste time, or it's not going to happen. And
19:57
Speaker 1: when you want more and you're willing to, you're doing
20:00
Speaker 1: the work and you want to do more work, you're willing,
20:02
Speaker 1: you're open to doing the work. All I can hear
20:05
Speaker 1: sometimes is society telling me you're running out of time.
20:08
Speaker 2: And are you talking about ageism within the field? What
20:13
Speaker 2: are you talking about?
20:14
Speaker 1: I think a little bit of ageism or lack of
20:16
Speaker 1: interest at a certain point. I think that, you know,
20:20
Speaker 1: I have my bestie who's my little co-host commentary here.
20:25
Speaker 1: She owned a driver's school in Cincinnati, Ohio, driver's education school.
20:32
Speaker 1: She was also a physical therapist assistant, so she did
20:35
Speaker 1: a lot of disability work. The business grew and became huge.
20:39
Speaker 1: When her mother died, who was her everything, and she
20:43
Speaker 1: was an only child, it just shook her up into thinking,
20:48
Speaker 1: I don't want to wait. I want to live. The
20:50
Speaker 1: business has been good. I'm tired of it. So she
20:53
Speaker 1: got to a point where she sold it. She did
20:55
Speaker 1: it right financially. She sold it. She now gives $ 20
20:59
Speaker 1: facials out of her son's bedroom, who's moved off from college,
21:03
Speaker 1: and she is enjoying the shit out of it. And
21:05
Speaker 1: that's what she wants to do. But But did she.
21:08
Speaker 2: Know she wanted to do it or she quit and
21:10
Speaker 2: was trying to find out what she really wants as
21:12
Speaker 2: opposed to just living that dream, which starts to get
21:16
Speaker 2: frustrating if it's not happening.
21:18
Speaker 1: Her dream was to let go and do something more.
21:20
Speaker 1: She was either that or open a coffee stand on
21:23
Speaker 1: the beach. And she's having the time of her life.
21:26
Speaker 1: And I admire her for that. And she quit living
21:29
Speaker 1: by the clock when she saw her mother die too young.
21:33
Speaker 1: And so what is this mentality with us that we
21:36
Speaker 1: live trapped with that intimidation of time?
21:39
Speaker 2: I think we do it to ourselves. I mean, this
21:42
Speaker 2: is going to sound weird, but... I was very, very
21:49
Speaker 2: lucky within the NBCU world. And yes, I worked my
21:53
Speaker 2: butt off, but I had an amazing team, amazing people,
21:56
Speaker 2: and survived many decades within the NBCU world or the
21:59
Speaker 2: television world at large. And probably when I retired, but
22:05
Speaker 2: it was also at a time when they wanted to
22:07
Speaker 2: retire me. I I was beyond anybody's ken of somebody
22:13
Speaker 2: still standing, which was in my 70s. And probably the
22:17
Speaker 2: oldest chick standing at the time. But I wasn't done
22:21
Speaker 2: in my mind. I wasn't done in my head. And
22:25
Speaker 2: it was still hard, even at that age, having anybody
22:30
Speaker 2: put an ageism on me because I'm not done. And
22:35
Speaker 2: I don't buy it. And I also think our culture...
22:40
Speaker 2: so rewards and supports 20, 30-somethings that the elders who
22:48
Speaker 2: have the experience are pushed away way too early.
22:52
Speaker 1: That's my point.
22:53
Speaker 2: But I do believe if our culture will only understand
22:57
Speaker 2: if the marriage of the younger generation's with the elder
23:02
Speaker 2: generation of experience could genuinely bond and work together. Yes.
23:07
Speaker 2: The kinds of creations we could come up with, those
23:09
Speaker 2: who know how to get it done and those who
23:11
Speaker 2: have the fresh new ideas. You marry those two. Yes.
23:14
Speaker 2: That's incredible. As opposed to just brilliant ideas that you
23:18
Speaker 2: may not know how to take care of.
23:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:21
Speaker 2: Perhaps older ways, but we know how to get something done. Yes.
23:25
Speaker 2: So it's interesting. Ageism is funny, but I think most
23:28
Speaker 2: of the time we do it to ourselves because originally
23:32
Speaker 2: it was 60, then it was 65, you know, retirement,
23:36
Speaker 2: end of conversation. I thought that was going to be
23:38
Speaker 2: me too, but it wasn't. And I did not let
23:42
Speaker 2: myself feed into it. And I think society may put
23:47
Speaker 2: out those markers, boundaries, whatever you want to call them.
23:52
Speaker 2: But it's in our power and our being that can say,
23:57
Speaker 2: fuck that. I'm not buying it. And you just keep
24:00
Speaker 2: on going. But you can't keep on going on the
24:03
Speaker 2: same road. You have to make a right turn, a
24:06
Speaker 2: left turn, take a U-turn, You've got to figure out
24:09
Speaker 2: what the obstacle is and try another way. As the
24:13
Speaker 2: book says, I don't believe in no. I don't believe
24:16
Speaker 2: in the word no. My father brought me up, which
24:18
Speaker 2: is why I think I'm talking to you with the
24:21
Speaker 2: sage right now, that there's no such word as can't.
24:25
Speaker 2: If you can't do something, it simply means you're not
24:28
Speaker 2: trying hard enough. So find another way, another direction, another
24:32
Speaker 2: way around it, but don't tell me you can't do it.
24:34
Speaker 1: So when do you know to let go? When do
24:37
Speaker 1: you know when to let go, when to say when?
24:40
Speaker 1: Have you had an instance in your life where you
24:42
Speaker 1: were really pushing and fighting for something and you're like,
24:44
Speaker 1: you know what?
24:44
Speaker 2: I was always pushing and fighting. I get it. I
24:47
Speaker 2: believe it.
24:49
Speaker 1: Was there any instance?
24:50
Speaker 2: Yes. For example, I mean, this is a small story,
24:56
Speaker 2: but it kind of talks to what I mean of
25:01
Speaker 2: another way around.
25:02
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
25:03
Speaker 2: It was just, I mean, GE still owned NBCU. My
25:08
Speaker 2: boss at the time kept telling me I was going
25:10
Speaker 2: to take over NBC Broadcast. I was the cable girl.
25:14
Speaker 2: I had USA, I had SyFy, I had all the
25:15
Speaker 2: cable channels. But at that time, Broadcast was a superstore.
25:19
Speaker 2: We were a stepchild. Broadcast was the real deal. And
25:24
Speaker 2: he told me he was going to give it to me.
25:26
Speaker 2: And then summer came and went, and it Lingered longer,
25:31
Speaker 2: whoever was in the position finally left. And I was
25:35
Speaker 2: ready to step into it. And I remember getting a
25:38
Speaker 2: call from a plane of a colleague of mine, who
25:42
Speaker 2: I still adore to this day, Ron Meyer, who said,
25:44
Speaker 2: by the way, you're not getting NBC. I said, what
25:46
Speaker 2: do you mean? He said, I just know, I just heard,
25:49
Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to tell you, but I want to
25:51
Speaker 2: prepare you for the call you're going to have tomorrow.
25:55
Speaker 2: And I'm totally devastated because I did all of cable.
25:59
Speaker 2: I was making way more money than they were making
26:02
Speaker 2: in the broadcast side because we had two streams of revenue.
26:07
Speaker 2: And I was in shock. But at the time, Ron
26:11
Speaker 2: basically wanted to make sure that I was prepared for
26:14
Speaker 2: the call so I could, quote, unquote, man up to it.
26:20
Speaker 2: And I remember when I got the call from my
26:23
Speaker 2: boss at the time, I– was calm and I said, okay.
26:28
Speaker 2: And I was debating, do I leave now? Do I quit?
26:32
Speaker 2: What do I do? And I decided, no, there's a
26:36
Speaker 2: reason that I don't know that why I'm not getting
26:39
Speaker 2: that job. But if they want to keep me, I'm
26:42
Speaker 2: going to go for something else. So my boss told me,
26:46
Speaker 2: you're going to have the HR person that's going to
26:48
Speaker 2: come to your office on, it was Memorial Day weekend,
26:51
Speaker 2: so on Tuesday, and you tell him what you want.
26:55
Speaker 2: So I literally said, okay, if I'm going to stay,
26:59
Speaker 2: I want a studio of my own and I want
27:03
Speaker 2: more money. I want you to double my salary. They
27:06
Speaker 2: came close to doubling, not quite. And they gave me
27:09
Speaker 2: what is now UCP, which is Universal Cable Productions. And
27:15
Speaker 2: I got a studio out of it. But it hurt.
27:18
Speaker 2: It was painful. But I figured out a way somehow
27:21
Speaker 2: to get something. I didn't know how to run a studio.
27:25
Speaker 2: I had never done my own production. We were the
27:27
Speaker 2: ones who bought it and created a brand and an image,
27:30
Speaker 2: et cetera. And we did it. And obviously, many, many,
27:33
Speaker 2: many years later, the studio is still there.
27:38
Speaker 1: So it worked out, which is great. And again, not linear.
27:41
Speaker 1: So when you talk to, to, you know, in your
27:44
Speaker 1: book and you, and you focus on the subject of
27:46
Speaker 1: going in to get something that you want, you say,
27:49
Speaker 1: have a plan.
27:51
Speaker 2: Have a plan and don't have an attitude. It's, you
27:54
Speaker 2: can have a plan, but if you whine, complain, you
27:59
Speaker 2: owe me, I'm entitled, you know, you, You have to
28:03
Speaker 2: be bold but not brash. You have to have confidence
28:07
Speaker 2: but not feel entitlement. They're just the style in which
28:12
Speaker 2: you ask for something. And I find humor. Like even
28:16
Speaker 2: with the HR guy, he walked in and I said, oh,
28:19
Speaker 2: you know, I made a joke to start rather than
28:22
Speaker 2: I can't believe what the assholes did to me. You know,
28:25
Speaker 2: I didn't do the– I didn't handle it the way–
28:30
Speaker 2: many people would have handled it with anger and being
28:33
Speaker 2: obnoxious and being, you know, you owe me. I basically
28:38
Speaker 2: sat back and said, okay, if someone were coming to
28:41
Speaker 2: me what would make me want to do something for them?
28:45
Speaker 2: What kind of attitude or sensibility or sense of humor
28:50
Speaker 2: would make me kind of want to be protective rather
28:53
Speaker 2: than say, oh, get the hell out of here. And
28:55
Speaker 2: that's kind of how I've lived my life. When I
28:58
Speaker 2: ask for something, I don't do it out of anger
29:00
Speaker 2: and I don't do it out of resentment and I
29:02
Speaker 2: don't do out of it because you owe me. I maintain,
29:07
Speaker 2: even if it hurts, a sense of humility. And realizing
29:11
Speaker 2: that they have to make decisions for them for reasons
29:15
Speaker 2: I may never understand. But that doesn't mean I should
29:20
Speaker 2: be a bitch about it.
29:21
Speaker 1: No, but and yet, but it's good to hear that
29:24
Speaker 1: because it is worth, I think we can come into
29:27
Speaker 1: a situation like this or discussion like that with defenses
29:30
Speaker 1: or a chip on our shoulder thinking we got to
29:32
Speaker 1: be tougher than the guy. We got to be tougher
29:34
Speaker 1: than our male counterpart. We have to, show more attitude.
29:37
Speaker 2: See, that's the worst. I think that's one of the
29:41
Speaker 2: biggest downfalls that women tend to believe.
29:43
Speaker 1: Go for it. I wrote that one down too.
29:46
Speaker 2: It is you have to be tougher. You have to
29:48
Speaker 2: be stronger. You have to be nastier. You have to
29:51
Speaker 2: be more demanding. It doesn't work. It just backfires. It
29:56
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you can't be confident about it. It's the
29:59
Speaker 2: style in which you demonstrate that confidence and your abilities
30:03
Speaker 2: and capabilities. But thinking you have to bitch up just
30:07
Speaker 2: so they think you're strong and tough, it backfires 95%, 99%
30:11
Speaker 2: of the time because nobody wants to bitch around. Right.
30:16
Speaker 2: But do they want a strong woman with a sense
30:18
Speaker 2: of humor who somehow can figure out how to get
30:21
Speaker 2: what they want but not be an asshole? Yeah.
30:34
Speaker 1: When you tell women, do it, don't wait, you have
30:37
Speaker 1: nothing to lose, have a plan, what is your idea
30:40
Speaker 1: of a plan? When a woman goes in and says,
30:42
Speaker 1: I want to be considered for this next position?
30:47
Speaker 2: It's basically doing your homework. First of all, understanding truly
30:52
Speaker 2: what that position entails. What do I have to know?
30:56
Speaker 2: Where do I have to go? Who can teach me
30:59
Speaker 2: a little bit more before I go in for that
31:01
Speaker 2: interview so I can be more informed and then be
31:04
Speaker 2: honest about who you spoke to about it. Um, It's
31:08
Speaker 2: important to show that you can be a collaborative player
31:14
Speaker 2: in the game because that's what most people need and
31:16
Speaker 2: want as opposed to somebody going in saying, I'm better
31:20
Speaker 2: than that one. I can do it. I can do
31:21
Speaker 2: it all. Don't worry about it. It, again, is stylistic
31:25
Speaker 2: in terms of how you approach everything. whether you're going
31:29
Speaker 2: to get the gig or not. But it's also saying
31:31
Speaker 2: if you don't get it, you know something, if it
31:33
Speaker 2: doesn't work out this time, keep me in mind for next.
31:36
Speaker 2: Or where would you recommend I get the experience so
31:39
Speaker 2: that when I come back in in a month, six months,
31:41
Speaker 2: or a year from now, it's an immediate yes.
31:44
Speaker 1: I love that you're putting a pin in for the like,
31:46
Speaker 1: I'll be back if not this year, next. I love that.
31:49
Speaker 2: And that's it. Don't think of a no as a
31:53
Speaker 2: permanent no. You know, a no means... Maybe not today,
31:57
Speaker 2: not now, not right here.
32:00
Speaker 1: Not here.
32:01
Speaker 2: But, you know, figure out another way to come in
32:04
Speaker 2: to get your yes. To me, a no is never permanent, ever.
32:08
Speaker 1: I want to know now, shifting to you, Bonnie, as
32:12
Speaker 1: a mother and a spouse, how do you balance this
32:16
Speaker 1: life with home? How did you stop and take care
32:21
Speaker 1: of you during these times? Because this is a demanding life.
32:24
Speaker 1: This was a demanding life, the career.
32:25
Speaker 2: First of all, people say you can have it all.
32:29
Speaker 2: In hindsight, I look back and I've been very lucky.
32:31
Speaker 2: I've had a good marriage, kids, profession, all that kind
32:35
Speaker 2: of stuff. But.
32:38
Speaker 2: You're never in balance. That's what people have to understand.
32:42
Speaker 2: You are always off balance. When I was on vacation,
32:45
Speaker 2: I always felt guilty I was leaving my colleagues down.
32:48
Speaker 2: When I was at work, I always felt guilty that,
32:52
Speaker 2: you know, my kid's at home, my husband's at home,
32:56
Speaker 2: who's making dinner, what's going on. So I always felt
32:58
Speaker 2: guilty staying or being at work, especially when I traveled.
33:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:02
Speaker 2: Now, I'm an empty nester. My kids are gone. You know,
33:05
Speaker 2: I have a totally independent life. I still feel guilty
33:08
Speaker 2: because I love my dog at home. So you're always
33:12
Speaker 2: at a balance. And people thinking that you're going to
33:15
Speaker 2: feel good and you're going to feel balanced and you're
33:18
Speaker 2: going to feel whole and everything is going to be
33:21
Speaker 2: just fine because you can have it all at the
33:23
Speaker 2: same time. Yeah. That's a crock.
33:25
Speaker 1: It's so refreshing to hear that.
33:28
Speaker 2: You may be able to have it all over the decades,
33:32
Speaker 2: but not at the same time. And you have to
33:35
Speaker 2: just know you're going to feel shitty on both sides
33:38
Speaker 2: of the scale.
33:39
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a constant tug of war.
33:41
Speaker 2: Yes.
33:42
Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like sometimes it's just less
33:45
Speaker 1: harsh and less tuggy as other times.
33:48
Speaker 2: I want to go back to something because I was
33:50
Speaker 2: going to bring it up and I thought about it
33:52
Speaker 2: too late when you talked about, you know, having... whether
33:57
Speaker 2: it's a more male-dominant world when people are whispering in
34:00
Speaker 2: your ear and you've got to compete with the guys,
34:01
Speaker 2: et cetera. I think one of the reasons why I
34:04
Speaker 2: never bought into that is because I had Barry Diller
34:07
Speaker 2: as a mentor. And Barry didn't care if you were male, female, short, tall, straight, gay, bi.
34:15
Speaker 2: He didn't care who you were. If you were an
34:17
Speaker 2: assistant or the president of a division, couldn't care less.
34:21
Speaker 2: A good idea was a good idea. A bad idea
34:24
Speaker 2: was a bad idea, no matter whose mouth it came
34:26
Speaker 2: out of. And I think it was Barry who was
34:29
Speaker 2: a person who taught me how to kind of navigate
34:35
Speaker 2: and never look at it as somebody else creating the
34:38
Speaker 2: rules for you. You either had good ideas and could
34:40
Speaker 2: present them well or bad ideas. It wasn't because the
34:44
Speaker 2: guys were after you. So I never saw the world,
34:48
Speaker 2: as I think many of my female peers did, that
34:52
Speaker 2: it was– a man's world. I didn't view it that way.
34:55
Speaker 2: And I think Barry was one of those who kicked
34:57
Speaker 2: me in the butt to realize it doesn't matter. It's
35:00
Speaker 2: either a good idea or a bad idea. It doesn't
35:01
Speaker 2: matter who it comes from.
35:02
Speaker 1: Well, we need more Barrys in the world. But I
35:03
Speaker 1: do think that that is a very specific and unique
35:05
Speaker 1: type of mentality. And I do feel that I think
35:09
Speaker 1: maybe being the oldest of three sisters and my father
35:12
Speaker 1: never left a toilet seat up in his life and
35:14
Speaker 1: still has it that I have never walked into anywhere
35:17
Speaker 1: thinking that it's a man's world. I need to, you know,
35:20
Speaker 1: assert myself. I have the things that will rattle me,
35:24
Speaker 1: but I do tend to throw myself off a cliff
35:28
Speaker 1: and say, why not me?
35:28
Speaker 2: I get that. But that should be a motivator.
35:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
35:34
Speaker 2: And frankly, I think one of the things that bothers
35:39
Speaker 2: me A lot is that not enough women bring up
35:44
Speaker 2: other women.
35:46
Speaker 1: Say it again.
35:49
Speaker 2: It's less so that the guys are after us. It's
35:52
Speaker 2: more women are so afraid because there are so few
35:56
Speaker 2: seats they believe are at the table. Therefore, if they
36:00
Speaker 2: help somebody else or bring someone else up, it may
36:04
Speaker 2: mean they may not get that seat. In my mind,
36:07
Speaker 2: the more women in C-suites, the better. Let's bring them up.
36:11
Speaker 2: And guess what? If you get it and I didn't
36:15
Speaker 2: and I helped bring you up, bravo to you. Win-win. Because,
36:19
Speaker 2: you know, hey, look what I did. She got that. Yeah.
36:23
Speaker 2: But enough women don't feel that. They're still competing for
36:26
Speaker 2: the wrong reasons against the wrong people.
36:29
Speaker 1: That's it. They're competing for the wrong reasons against the
36:33
Speaker 1: wrong people. I'm not your fight. I'm not here to
36:36
Speaker 1: take this away from you. And I say all the
36:40
Speaker 1: time on this podcast, but I've said it before, as
36:43
Speaker 1: my collection of girlfriends has gotten a little bit more tailored.
36:48
Speaker 1: By choice. Yeah, by choice, by choice. Women need to
36:51
Speaker 1: know how to be good women to other women.
36:53
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. I had an experience a number of years
36:57
Speaker 2: back where I gave my lawyer to another colleague who
37:02
Speaker 2: was I don't remember whether I was chair of my
37:06
Speaker 2: department at that point or vice chair already. And I
37:10
Speaker 2: told him, I said, I want you to tell her
37:13
Speaker 2: everything I make. I want you to tell her my
37:16
Speaker 2: stock options, my salary, what my bonus over the last
37:19
Speaker 2: couple of years. And he says to me, why? I said,
37:23
Speaker 2: why not? The money is not coming out of my pocket.
37:26
Speaker 2: If I can help her as she takes on this
37:28
Speaker 2: new chair role, Get what she deserves because she can
37:32
Speaker 2: go in and say, I know two other people who
37:35
Speaker 2: made blah, blah, blah. It's going to only help her.
37:38
Speaker 2: It's not taking anything away from me. Somebody getting money
37:41
Speaker 2: in their pocket, if I'm stupid enough not to negotiate
37:44
Speaker 2: hard enough for my own money, that's my problem, not hers.
37:47
Speaker 2: Let her know. She got the deal closed and she
37:51
Speaker 2: got good money.
37:52
Speaker 1: Okay, I thought you were going to turn and tell
37:53
Speaker 1: me like she stabbed you in the back. No, never.
37:55
Speaker 2: Thank God. To this day. Yeah. To this day. She
37:58
Speaker 2: doesn't quite tell that story to other people.
38:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:01
Speaker 2: But she is a, and we have virtually nothing to
38:06
Speaker 2: do with each other's world. She remains a supporter and
38:09
Speaker 2: a supporter of other women.
38:11
Speaker 1: That's, it starts with one.
38:13
Speaker 2: Paying it forward.
38:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely. What are you, is there anything now, because you
38:16
Speaker 1: have it figured out, and I respect what you say,
38:19
Speaker 1: that all this is coming from hindsight. What are you
38:23
Speaker 1: better at now than you were 30, 40 years ago?
38:28
Speaker 1: At home as a mother?
38:29
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's just being more honest
38:33
Speaker 2: with myself.
38:34
Speaker 1: Okay.
38:34
Speaker 2: And not needing as much hindsight to kind of see
38:37
Speaker 2: who I am and laugh at myself and... Try also
38:41
Speaker 2: not to project on the kids, you know, what I
38:45
Speaker 2: may want for them rather than to applaud what they
38:48
Speaker 2: want for themselves. And also learn. I've been much better
38:54
Speaker 2: in terms of I had a real Jewish mom who
39:00
Speaker 2: could deal with great Jewish guilt. I have mastered not
39:05
Speaker 2: being a guilt giver. because of what I experienced growing up.
39:09
Speaker 2: And it was all for good. My mother was a
39:11
Speaker 2: really good, decent person and a great mom, but she
39:16
Speaker 2: used her own, what she wanted for herself for her
39:20
Speaker 2: kids to accomplish. And that's something that I'm very careful
39:25
Speaker 2: and cautious about, but now it's much more natural than
39:28
Speaker 2: it was. I remember having... to zip when something was
39:31
Speaker 2: about to come out of my mouth. And it wasn't
39:34
Speaker 2: always perfect when it would start falling out. Now it's
39:38
Speaker 2: just I can listen and hear Jesse or Akime talk
39:42
Speaker 2: about what they are doing, want to do, and not
39:45
Speaker 2: offer advice. Just listen.
39:46
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a hard one. You don't offer advice.
39:50
Speaker 2: No, I'm not 100% perfect at it yet. But I
39:55
Speaker 2: literally have to tell myself to zip and just listen.
39:58
Speaker 2: And if she asks or he asks, so what do
40:00
Speaker 2: you think? Yeah. Then I'll be honest. But if they
40:04
Speaker 2: don't ask, I don't say.
40:06
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about the story, because this
40:08
Speaker 1: is also something about this time, this chapter, this season,
40:13
Speaker 1: 40s and above, whatever. And you're somewhere where you don't
40:17
Speaker 1: want to be. And you wanted to always try something.
40:19
Speaker 1: And you mentioned the network exec that started to evaluate
40:25
Speaker 1: her work with students because she was, I think, helping
40:28
Speaker 1: as a tutor or helping her daughter with some of
40:31
Speaker 1: her learning challenges. And she realized she had an affinity
40:34
Speaker 1: for teaching and she loved it. And she said she
40:37
Speaker 1: wanted to potentially go into psychology. And she had already
40:41
Speaker 1: been in the business for 30 years. And you uplifted her.
40:46
Speaker 1: And empowered her to jump and try.
40:49
Speaker 2: Lizzie did it pretty much on her own. She kind
40:51
Speaker 2: of woke up one day and said, I've done this chapter.
40:54
Speaker 2: And nobody wanted her to leave. She was fabulous within
40:57
Speaker 2: the NBCU world. But she realized that there was something
41:02
Speaker 2: missing from her life, her existence, and wanted to try
41:07
Speaker 2: different things. So she literally, whilst working at NBC, took
41:11
Speaker 2: some graduate courses at Columbia and Eventually left NBC by
41:15
Speaker 2: choice completely on her own and is thriving right now.
41:19
Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to ask you. How is she doing?
41:21
Speaker 2: Happy, thriving. Doesn't mean that she doesn't miss her colleagues
41:26
Speaker 2: and what she was doing. But she feels much more
41:30
Speaker 2: fulfilled and realizes, you know, and this may not be
41:33
Speaker 2: her end goal. her end deal either. She may still
41:38
Speaker 2: zig or zag off of the psychology and social work
41:42
Speaker 2: that she's done to something else. But she's living out
41:46
Speaker 2: all of her, I don't want to call them fantasies
41:49
Speaker 2: because they're now realities, but all of her adult dreams.
41:54
Speaker 2: She's now putting a toe in the water to see
41:57
Speaker 2: how they really feel. And she's doing incredibly well, which
42:01
Speaker 2: is why I think The adult dream is something you
42:06
Speaker 2: come to because you're experiencing life in a different way
42:10
Speaker 2: and find some passions and some lack of passions.
42:14
Speaker 1: Yes.
42:15
Speaker 2: And it gives you an opportunity, if you're willing, to
42:18
Speaker 2: put that toe in the water. See how it feels.
42:20
Speaker 2: It may be too icy. You go, oh, my God,
42:22
Speaker 2: that's not for me. Or it could be, ooh, this
42:25
Speaker 2: kind of feels good. I'm going to go a little
42:27
Speaker 2: further with this. I'll take a course. I'll go talk
42:30
Speaker 2: to somebody. I'll freelance. I'll work for free just to
42:33
Speaker 2: experience and follow somebody around for a bit on a weekend.
42:37
Speaker 2: There's so many ways to experiment, but unless you put
42:40
Speaker 2: your toes in the water, how are you ever going
42:42
Speaker 2: to know? Yeah.
42:43
Speaker 1: And I think it's important for us to hear that
42:45
Speaker 1: there is such a thing as adult dreams.
42:48
Speaker 2: Oh, without doubt. I mean, if I lived my mother's dream,
42:53
Speaker 2: which she planted in my brain cells very early, I
42:56
Speaker 2: would be a lawyer. Okay. And I laugh when I
43:00
Speaker 2: think about me ever. And I thought about that. And
43:03
Speaker 2: while in school, I was going to apply to law school,
43:05
Speaker 2: but something about it didn't feel right. Then it was
43:09
Speaker 2: psychology for a while for me, because I was always
43:12
Speaker 2: good in reading people and being able to navigate. And
43:15
Speaker 2: then I decided, that's kind of, I can always read people.
43:21
Speaker 2: I can always help people. I don't need to be
43:24
Speaker 2: be paid to deal with other people's problems. And it
43:28
Speaker 2: was just odd how I tripped into photography, which turned
43:33
Speaker 2: out to be a passion. I started when I was 12,
43:35
Speaker 2: a little brownie camera, taking pictures of my girlfriends at
43:38
Speaker 2: summer camp and creating my own little wall of photos,
43:42
Speaker 2: which was fabulous. But It turns out it's a passion,
43:46
Speaker 2: and it's still my passion, and I still shoot all
43:49
Speaker 2: the time, but it's.
43:49
Speaker 1: Not my boss.
43:50
Speaker 2: It's not my boss.
43:51
Speaker 1: Is that another form of self-care?
43:57
Speaker 2: It could be. It could be, but I love it.
43:59
Speaker 2: I'll walk my neighborhood, and sometimes I carry a real camera.
44:03
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just use my wonderful iPhone, which I now
44:07
Speaker 2: know how to play with in a lot of ways.
44:09
Speaker 2: But I'm always shooting. I'm always seeing it. But I
44:13
Speaker 2: don't ever want it to control me or my life
44:15
Speaker 2: that I have to do it. And I think the
44:18
Speaker 2: reason some of my photographs, you know, some are crappy,
44:21
Speaker 2: but some are pretty good, are because I see it
44:25
Speaker 2: as a pure form of my eyes, my heart, my
44:30
Speaker 2: being now manifesting itself where it used to be a print.
44:35
Speaker 2: Now it's either on my phone or on my computer.
44:38
Speaker 2: But it's something about my life, something about what I've seen,
44:41
Speaker 2: something about what I've experienced or what I feel in
44:44
Speaker 2: an image.
44:45
Speaker 1: I want to read this last paragraph because this made
44:48
Speaker 1: me actually tear up. Everything makes me tear up. I'm
44:51
Speaker 1: going to pause. Fortunately, I have a lifetime of running
44:55
Speaker 1: with change and not from it to use it as experience.
44:59
Speaker 1: I embrace whatever new reality I'm faced with as my
45:02
Speaker 1: new reality, and I do it quickly. I don't dwell
45:06
Speaker 1: on the would have, should have, could have's. But there's
45:08
Speaker 1: a third option. We can also run toward change. We
45:14
Speaker 1: don't have to wait until it has knocked down our
45:17
Speaker 1: door and disrupted our lives to act, and we don't
45:21
Speaker 1: have to act out of fear. Earlier in the book,
45:24
Speaker 1: I wrote about the importance of following opportunities. Well, if
45:27
Speaker 1: we run toward change... We can create them for ourselves.
45:32
Speaker 1: I believe it is no coincidence that if you view
45:35
Speaker 1: change from a slightly different angle, if you squint your
45:40
Speaker 1: eyes and shift your perspective, it can look a lot
45:43
Speaker 1: like chance. With the right outlook, that's what change is.
45:50
Speaker 1: A chance to do better, do better, and do more.
45:56
Speaker 2: Yep.
45:57
Speaker 1: I love that. And I think when we get rigid
46:03
Speaker 1: and we've been in that formula for too long or
46:06
Speaker 1: in that place of safety because it's what's provided, it's
46:09
Speaker 1: what we know how to do best, we think we're
46:12
Speaker 1: running out of time anyway, whatever.
46:14
Speaker 2: I've got to get you to lose that running out
46:17
Speaker 2: of time. Seriously. I'm in.
46:19
Speaker 1: I'll take it in.
46:19
Speaker 2: It is going to strangle you. It is, and it has.
46:23
Speaker 2: And you are still young. You have... And forget this
46:27
Speaker 2: biological age stuff, you know, so much is just up
46:32
Speaker 2: here and what you allow yourself to do. So I
46:34
Speaker 2: want you to lose that.
46:35
Speaker 1: I have an assignment from Ms. Bonnyhammer. This has been
46:38
Speaker 1: so insightful. We could have spent three more episodes on
46:42
Speaker 1: all the other chapters, but, and we'll show you availability
46:46
Speaker 1: of where to find the book, but I ordered it
46:48
Speaker 1: last year off Amazon, had a ball reading it, and
46:51
Speaker 1: I can see.
46:51
Speaker 2: That I'm just going to- All you had to do
46:53
Speaker 2: is tell Gina to ask me to send you one,
46:55
Speaker 2: silly girl.
46:55
Speaker 1: She didn't even tell.
46:56
Speaker 2: Me to- Use your words.
46:57
Speaker 1: Use your words. Use my words. I've been using all
47:00
Speaker 1: of Gina Torres' resources like you wouldn't believe, but this
47:03
Speaker 1: has been, I think, one of the best is meeting you.
47:06
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for.
47:08
Speaker 2: To be continued.
47:09
Speaker 1: To be continued. Oh, we're going to have you check
47:11
Speaker 1: in at your availability, but- Thank you for giving me
47:14
Speaker 1: this time.
47:15
Speaker 2: My pleasure.
47:15
Speaker 1: And I appreciate it.
47:16
Speaker 2: And interesting.
47:17
Speaker 1: Thank you.
47:18
Speaker 2: And thank you all.
47:20
Speaker 1: How hard can it be? With Diana Maria Riva is
47:22
Speaker 1: a Hyphenate Media Group production in partnership with iHeart's My
47:26
Speaker 1: Cultura podcast network. For more of your favorite shows, visit
47:29
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.