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Beek on being and NEURODIVERSITY · Beek on being

• 0:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: Hi. I hope you are well. This podcast is a place for people to share personal and professional perspectives, talk openly, and ask questions. From serious to silly to sublime, it's all about communication and connections. Always coming from a place of kindness and curiosity, we talk about shared humanity, discuss ideas, and highlight people creating a better world.
• 0:24
  We've got to keep learning, keep growing, keep being. I'm Melissa Beek, and this is Beek on being. Today's episode is Beek on being and NEURODIVERSITY. Everyone thinks, processes, and operates differently. There are differences in how we learn, how we behave, and how we experience situation.
• 0:43
  Today we have therapist Nicole Mendizabal here to discuss it all. Welcome.
• 0:49
  Nicole Mendizabal: Thank you.
• 0:50
  Melissa Shere Beek: Did I pronounce your name right? I'm so sorry.
• 0:52
  Nicole Mendizabal: You did. It's totally fine. I am used to it. It is a very difficult last name. Filling out the Scantron beautiful, though.
• 0:59
  Thank you. Yeah. Filling out the Scantron back in the day when I was in school was not a good time, and my middle name did not help either because it's not short.
• 1:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: Well, you're unique. It's fabulous. I love it. So can you introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about you?
• 1:16
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So thank you so much first for having me. I'm very excited to be here and have this conversation with you and for the listeners to hear this conversation. So I am Nicole Mendizibol. I'm a licensed therapist, and I am licensed in Florida, fully virtual at the moment.
• 1:35
  Actually, recently relocated to the Charlotte, North Carolina area, so licensed here as well in South Carolina. And I specialize in working I work with everyone, but my caseload is primarily women. And one of my specialties is neurodivergence, specifically ADHD, autism as well. And I primarily work with adults. And with that also kind of bleeds in some other things than my primary, niches is, I guess, what we'll call them, which are trauma, anxiety, and the modalities, which I believe you had asked me about.
• 2:19
  So I'm trying to not to forget any of the things. But so I primarily use somatic and kind of brain based type therapies. So some specialties are and that approaches that I use are EMDR as well as brain spotting. I also take
• 2:41
  Melissa Shere Beek: a So can you break down somatic and all of those things for our listeners? I know what you're talking about, but I wanna make sure that our listeners understand all the terminology you just said.
• 2:49
  Nicole Mendizabal: Absolutely. So somatic, at least in the way that I use it, it I'm not kind of referencing any specific type of, modality, although there are many. And EMDR does kind of fall into that as well as brain spotting, is basically just an approach to therapy that also addresses the body. Because I personally believe in, like, my approach in therapy is as a person is that the brain can't be separated from the body. Like, it's literally in our body.
• 3:19
  Right? So addressing the body as well, in the therapeutic process.
• 3:27
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. Good. And EMDR is one of those?
• 3:30
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So EMDR and brain spotting, it it can be done in a variation of ways. Right? Like, there's a foundation which is the bilateral stimulation that I think people are a bit more familiar with and has been, I think, adding, you know, more well known, has kind of been talked about more, I think, on social media, you know, in different forms. So I think people are a little bit more aware about it these days
• 3:58
  Melissa Shere Beek: Uh-huh.
• 3:58
  Nicole Mendizabal: As opposed to before. But if not, I'm happy to share more about that as well. And so you it can be done in a way that does focus on the somatic element. Right? So just kind of bringing in the body awareness into the approach of EMDR and therapy, in doing different kind of movements and things and addressing that.
• 4:22
  And then the brain spotting is similar to EMDR. It's a bit newer and I think a bit lesser known, But it's a really Okay.
• 4:29
  Melissa Shere Beek: Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
• 4:31
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. It's a really great therapy and it actually came from EMDR. So the person who developed it, his name is David Grand. And he was originally an EMDR therapist and practitioner and discovered in his sessions with clients that it seemed that when they looked in a certain spot that some sort of it, like, memory or sometimes not even a specific memory, but just feelings would come up. And that would be associated with the emotional trauma or sometimes it's not even trauma.
• 5:07
  Right? It could be anxiety or just kind of like a disturbance in general
• 5:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right.
• 5:11
  Nicole Mendizabal: Was associated with that spot. So his phrase for brain spotting is where you look affects how you feel, and I find that's very true. So it's a very cool kind of therapy similar to EMDR, but there are some differences.
• 5:26
  Melissa Shere Beek: That is cool. And can you tell our listeners a little bit about EMDR as well? Yeah. For anybody who's not aware? Okay.
• 5:32
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So EMDR is a type of therapy that was developed by Francine Shapiro, I believe. I don't wanna say the nineties. Maybe that's wrong. But maybe that's kind of more when it got popularized or evidence based.
• 5:46
  So it's a type of therapy that's largely used for trauma but can also, you know, be used for other things as well like anxiety, and different things. And so how EMDR therapy works is that the therapist it's an eight phase protocol. And so I think the part of that protocol in different phases that people think of is the reprocessing phase, which is the bilateral stimulation.
• 6:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Frozen for a second.
• 6:15
  Nicole Mendizabal: Oh, sorry.
• 6:16
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. Sorry. That's okay.
• 6:18
  Nicole Mendizabal: Which part did I get frozen at so I can make sure I didn't
• 6:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: You were just beginning to to break down EMDR
• 6:24
  Nicole Mendizabal: Perfect.
• 6:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: For bilateral stimulation.
• 6:26
  Nicole Mendizabal: Perfect. Okay. So and if I miss anything, just let me know. Go back to it. But, so the bilateral stimulation can be different forms.
• 6:34
  So it could be tapping, you know, kind of like on the arms and cross. Don't know if this video will be released but if people can see me.
• 6:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah they'll see it on YouTube.
• 6:44
  Nicole Mendizabal: Perfect. Okay. Or it can be audio as well so you know you can have headphones in and then have sounds coming from one ear and out the other, and then that's that form of bilateral stimulation. Or it could be, eye movements. So, you know, I think that is a commonly known one because of the name.
• 7:02
  But you know? So eye movements moving back and forth. And it's not fully understood. Understood. Like, it can't be scientifically validated as to how EMDR works.
• 7:14
  There are some theories, but a very common theory that people use when explaining it is that it's kind of similar to REM sleep. So when we're sleeping, our eyes, especially in, you know, specifically in REM sleep, are moving back and forth, we're experiencing that bilateral stimulation naturally. So the theory behind EMDR is that it replicates that experience and is the foundation of EMDR therapy is that the brain knows how to heal itself, that we just have to kind of guide it with this bilateral stimulation and, you know, the things that we do throughout the eight phases of EMDR therapy.
• 7:52
  Melissa Shere Beek: These are all the modalities that you use. But how did you get into this practice? How did you become a therapist?
• 7:59
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. I did actually forget some mode or I think I got so into EMDR that I didn't mention the others. So I'll just briefly touch on those and then come back to, you know, how I kind of got here. And with EMDR, you know, as well, I did want to mention in case people are wondering, like, okay. Well, I know, like, how it works now, but, like, what is it that it's doing?
• 8:20
  So, you know, with the theory of EMDR is that we have these experiences that get they don't process adaptively in our brains, so they're kind of stuck in our brains and our bodies. And so the EMDR therapy is a way to facilitate healthy processing of those experiences to integrate into our current experience and kind of update us into, you know, kind of where we are now and not with those experiences that kind of have us trapped Right. In the nervous system specifically. So that Right. Piece as well.
• 8:55
  And so with the other modalities and they all blend together, you know, I think very nicely. And I'm just the personally of the belief that there is no one modality that works perfectly for everyone or will solve everything.
• 9:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: I do No blanket solution.
• 9:11
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Right. It's like we're all individual. Right? There is bio individuality.
• 9:16
  There is no way that one thing is going to work for every single person on earth and every single issue. So I very much take an individualized approach and draw from these different modalities that, I am trained in or, you know, kind of gravitate towards. So the other is it's not specifically a modality, but it just informs my approach, and it's polyvagal theory. Okay.
• 9:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: Tell us a little bit more about that.
• 9:40
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. So it is was developed by Steven Forges. And it is basically a way of explaining and looking at the nervous system and our different nervous system states. So I know one that we hear of frequently is fight or flight. And so the main different ones that I think people are familiar with is that one, as well as we have freeze.
• 10:06
  And then, so we also have then a state where we are regulated. Our nervous system is regulated. And that is where we feel safe and can connect with others and, you know, do all of these different things. And so that's just kind of a way of explaining the nervous system and therapy and incorporating it and looking at it. And I have, like, this little chart that I show clients sometimes, and we map out the system and all of those different things.
• 10:35
  And then the other main one that I draw from as well, and I'm not formally trained in it, but I do use it to inform my approach, is internal family systems, also known as known as IFS. And the theory behind that one essentially is that we have a what in IFS is called a self with a capital s. And that would be what most people would probably refer to as their authentic self or, you know, their best self. And then we have these different parts that develop throughout our lives that are basically coping. You they are things that come up as a way to cope and these different kind of parts.
• 11:14
  And it's looked at as a family, you know, hence the name in general Right. Said stums. And that the self is who we really are. But oftentimes, these different parts are kind of driving the bus and our lives, and that can cause issues at times because, you know, they are Not true
• 11:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: to who you are.
• 11:35
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right. They're not who we are. They're not our authentic selves at the core, and they were typically developed when we were much younger. So, you know, it's like a kid trying to lead an adult when that probably isn't gonna work very well. So that's essentially the theory.
• 11:52
  It's a very I think it's a beautiful one and kind of how I see therapy in and of itself. You know, that it's not that there's anything wrong with anyone or that kind of thing. It's that we have to sometimes we have to become certain people or do certain things to get us to a certain point in life and then it no longer serves us. That's the process of therapy is undoing those things.
• 12:17
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. So how did you become a therapist?
• 12:22
  Nicole Mendizabal: Thank you for reminding me the question. So I feel like the process of me becoming a therapist and me getting to this point was kind of faded. I can't really see what else I would have been doing at this point or, you know, what else I would do. I've always been very interested in people and the brain and, you know, our selves and why we are the way we are, why we do the things we do. I tend to be a naturally curious person.
• 12:54
  And I knew I always wanted to do something to help people, so I think that kind of naturally led me down this road. And personally, and I know this is kind of our topic for today, is I have ADHD as well. So I think that in part, trying to understand myself and my brain
• 13:14
  Melissa Shere Beek: Mhmm.
• 13:14
  Nicole Mendizabal: Led me down this kind of rabbit hole and this path of, like, being really interested in what it is that makes us who we are or, you know, why we do the things we do and how we work.
• 13:26
  Melissa Shere Beek: So you're right. Today's episode is all about neurodiversity. So before we get into the meat of it, can you clarify the terms neurodiversity, neurodivergent, and neurotypical? Our listeners can understand what we're talking about.
• 13:43
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. I know they can definitely be confusing, terms. And I think oftentimes they're used interchangeable interchangeably, makes it more confusing because then it's like, okay, do they mean the same thing or are they interchangeable? But they are actually not the same thing. They do not mean the same thing.
• 14:01
  So, essentially, neurodiversity is a framework that a sociologist developed, I believe, in the nineties. And the idea of that framework is just that the human brain is there is variation in the human brain just as there is in biology and that it's a natural part of society. And so it looks at neurodivergence and, different forms of neurotypes, maybe better said, as a natural thing and not something that is a pathology per se.
• 14:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. And then And neurodivergent.
• 14:42
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So neurodivergent means that it there is a difference in wiring of the brain in comparison to what is the standard, norm. And by norm, I just mean statistically. So, you know, not that we're just, like, normal and abnormal, but Right. Neurodivergence just means that, that it differs in the wiring and structure from what is statistically the average in society.
• 15:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Because there is no norm. Everybody's wired differently. Right. Even with the same process things are different and the way we internalize.
• 15:20
  Yeah.
• 15:20
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. Even with neurotypical, you know, which would be considered the typical in terms
• 15:26
  Melissa Shere Beek: of The standard.
• 15:27
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right. The standard. There is variation in that as well. Like, so I actually recently learned myself, in the past couple of weeks or so, I think. It was never really explained this way, it really, like, landed differently this time is that even neurotypical brains, there are kind of like your thumbprint.
• 15:47
  So there is no, brain that is exactly the same as the other. So it's like Exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. And, you know, so there really is no typical.
• 15:55
  Like, there is variation, of course, then neurodivergence is more so referencing the structure and the wiring. But, yes, there are no two brains that are
• 16:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: exactly Right. Because we're all under the heading of neurodiversity because we are all diverse people. Yes. So then tell us what a neurodivergent brain is.
• 16:16
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So that so essentially, neurodivergence is what I have how I usually describe it is like the umbrella. So we have neurodivergence as like the broad category. And then under that, there are different forms of neurodivergence. So you have ADHD.
• 16:36
  You have, autism spectrum disorder. You have OCD is also considered a form of neurodivergence as well. Dyspraxia. Like, there are a bunch of different types of neurodivergence. So each of those look different, but essentially, in relation to all of them, the why they are all a form of neurodivergence is because the wiring or the structure is different.
• 17:04
  So for example, with, autism, there tends to be a more of a thickness in certain brain regions and hyperconnectivity and, difference in kind of path ways of different brain parts. So processing and experiences of how they receive information is different as well as ADHD. With ADHD, you have a dysregulation. And with and I think it's important to note as well with most forms of neurodivergence, if not all, research is still very much evolving. So these are all kind of theories that have some support in terms of research behind them.
• 17:48
  But things are continuing to evolve. So the current understanding, and I think that is agreed upon with ADHD, is that it's a dysregulation of dopamine. The previous explanation used to be more so that it was a deficit of dopamine and a lack of dopamine, but we've found that that's actually not the case. It seems to be more of a dysregulation. And actually, not everyone with ADHD has a issue with dopamine.
• 18:18
  So there are other things involved as well as, including, like, norepinephrine, epinephrine. I believe those two are the same thing. It kind of sent me down the neuroscience, research rabbit hole with, like, learning about all of these things. But those are kind of the key things as well and then things that are affected with that. So, you know, like executive functioning, working memory, and which are associated with the prefrontal cortex and all of that.
• 18:46
  It really depends on what form of neurodivergence or maybe better said what type of neurodivergence we're talking about. But
• 18:52
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay.
• 18:53
  Nicole Mendizabal: There are a few different types and different things that affect each.
• 18:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: And and to varying degrees too, each of them.
• 19:00
  Nicole Mendizabal: Correct. Yes. Like, no just as we were talking about, you know, diversity with neurotypical brains, neurodivergent brains, all of these things, there is no person who has the same exact presentation of ADHD or autism or, you know, these things. So you if you know one person with that who is, you know, let's say autistic or has ADHD, you just know one person. It doesn't represent everyone.
• 19:27
  It is very much a spectrum terms of presentation.
• 19:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: A spectrum. Yes. That's a full spectrum of it. And then I know that you told me something new that I wasn't aware of too, but I don't I forget the acronym. But it was autism with ADHD.
• 19:43
  Nicole Mendizabal: Oh, ADAUD. Yes.
• 19:45
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Because this was the first I was hearing about it.
• 19:50
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So actually just as of 2013, so not too, too long ago, you couldn't be diagnosed with both ADHD and autism.
• 20:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. I had never heard that.
• 20:02
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Right. Like it was either you had one or the other.
• 20:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: Or the other. Yeah.
• 20:06
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So this is a newer diagnosis. You know, as research has continued to evolve and we've learned different things and new things and it's been, you know, I think more updated, we have learned that there is significant overlap in the conditions. And I believe, I hope I'm not getting the numbers wrong, but I think it's, like, sixty percent of people who are autistic also have ADHD.
• 20:35
  Melissa Shere Beek: It's a large percentage.
• 20:37
  Nicole Mendizabal: No. I think it's a bit less vice versa. But Uh-huh. The number is to suggest that there is definitely an overlap. And some researchers actually are hypothesizing that they may be part of the same condition with different presentations.
• 20:54
  But that's not something that's been proven yet, but that is something that researchers are hypothesizing based off
• 21:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: of like we're still in the thick of Yes. Finding all of it out.
• 21:04
  Nicole Mendizabal: We very much are.
• 21:07
  Melissa Shere Beek: So what are some of the misconceptions and the false assumptions that people make with someone who's neurodivergent?
• 21:14
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. So I think that in terms of ADHD, some of the very common misconceptions are that people with ADHD can't focus. And that's kind of all that it is. And I think that's the most thing that's talked about. And that is very much a stressor for a lot of people with ADHD and a common experience.
• 21:38
  But it's a lot more than that. And it's actually a myth. So people with ADHD have what's called an interest based nervous system. And I believe that was coined by doctor William it was either doctor William nod Dodson or doctor Ed Ned Hallowell. So I apologize to whichever one I'm I'm mixing up.
• 22:02
  But he found that people with ADHD have an interest based nervous system, which essentially just means that compared to a person who has a neurotypical brain, they their nervous system is driven by urgency or importance. And the ADHD nervous system is driven by interest. So, you know, things that they're interested in and that we're interested in, we can hyper focus on. Hence, how I learned so much about ADHD and the nervous system, you know, and all of these things. But things that there is not a personal interest in, it can be very difficult to get ourselves to focus on that thing.
• 22:43
  And Right. It is due to different the differences in the wiring. Right? It's not like a motivation thing of like, oh, well, I just don't care. I don't want to.
• 22:51
  It's neurologically challenging. So I think that's a very common one. And I think because as how we mentioned, right, that there's still so much being learned about neurodivergence and specifically ADHD since that's what we're talking about, that something that is said a lot these days or I hear a lot is like, well, everyone has ADHD. And that's not the case. Like, everybody doesn't have ADHD.
• 23:18
  There might be similar experiences, but it doesn't mean that everyone has it. And so Again, a spectrum of degree. Right. Right. Exactly.
• 23:27
  It is a spectrum. And, you know, with all of the technology that we have these days, we are very much more distractible, and our attention is being pulled in a million different ways. And so, of course, that is affecting us and our attention span and all of those things. But as I mentioned, right, like, that's not the only thing to ADHD. A significant, experience that people with ADHD have as well is emotional dysregulation.
• 23:57
  So, difficulty, you know, with emotional regulated regulation and ease more easily than maybe what someone who's neurotypical would be dysregulated by. That is something that is commonly experienced too. And in relation to that, there is a term that is not, like, diagnostic criteria per se, but something that is frequently experienced by people who have ADHD is rejection sensitive dysphoria, also known as RSD. And it is the it is a heightened response to perceived or actual rejection. And there's actually been research studies that have been done that show that it is physically painful for people with ADHD.
• 24:53
  So there's an overlap in the parts of our brains that experience emotional pain and physical pain. And that part more sensitive in people who have ADHD.
• 25:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: So what Presents in a physical way.
• 25:07
  Nicole Mendizabal: Correct. Yeah. Like, physically feel pain. Like, it is very hurtful. And so I a lot of people who have ADHD Yeah.
• 25:16
  I that I have worked with and myself tend to be labeled as sensitive, and now it makes sense because you actually are
• 25:24
  Melissa Shere Beek: You actually are feeling Not just emotionally, but physically. Yeah.
• 25:29
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. Exactly. Emotionally and physically. And sometimes it actually kind of goes both ways, which is a very interesting, almost like, contradiction or what seems contradicting with ADHD is a lot of these things can go both ways. So we can be hypersensitive, meaning that we have a higher pain tolerance for, like, physical pain and that kind of thing, and also be hypersensitive.
• 25:56
  You know? So being sensitive emotionally or having a lower, pain tolerance physically. And Mhmm. I believe that it's due to, and the research may suggest this as well, is that with the ADHD brain, most of the challenges are related to dysregulation in communication in the brain. So sometimes that it that communication is hyper, so we get a lot of information.
• 26:27
  And that can explain, you know, the hypersensitivity. And then other times, it lags or doesn't receive the part of the brain that needs that information doesn't receive it, and so, you know, you don't
• 26:39
  Melissa Shere Beek: More hypo.
• 26:40
  Nicole Mendizabal: Much. Exactly. And that kind of thing. And then I think another common misconception, I think society is kind of coming more around to it and realizing that this isn't the case anymore. But because for so long, a lot of the criteria and actually still in the DSM five which is the current, so DSM stands for the diagnostic statistic.
• 27:04
  I always forget it on the spot when I need to say it. Diagnostic, the diagnostic standard manual, I'm not sure. It it's gonna it always escapes me at the moment that I need to remember it. But, basically, the the important point of that is that it's the book that we use, clinicians use to diagnose what would be considered a disorder and what's usually billed to the insurance if someone takes insurance in order for the insurance to cover it.
• 27:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: ICD codes.
• 27:35
  Nicole Mendizabal: Exactly. Right. The the codes, all of that fun stuff. And so in this current version of the DSM five, which we should be getting the six soon, but the current version doesn't reference this, like, the emotional regulation component that we talked about and is very much geared more towards children. So ADHD for a long time was seen as, you know, a childhood disorder and specifically a boy's childhood disorder and believed that people grow out of it.
• 28:10
  It's when you're an adult and hence why a lot of, you know, has not been researched or known about adult ADHD because this was the theory. But, yes, it is very much not a childhood disorder, and people generally do not grow out of it. It's a neurodevelopmental condition. You know, so it is typically It's
• 28:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: how you're wired.
• 28:29
  Nicole Mendizabal: Exactly. Right. It is how you are wired. So those are kind of the key things with ADHD. And then with autism, I think the biggest misconception and myth is that people who are autistic are, like, are emotionless or, you know, don't have feelings and cold.
• 28:50
  And that is very much not the case. Actually, most people who are autistic are hypersensitive. Like, they are very empathetic and, you know, those kinds of things. So I think that is something that is a harmful stereotype and very much not true for most people.
• 29:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: I agree with you with that a 100%. I feel like, you know, they are exceptionally sensitive to a lot in of a positive and a negative way. But sometimes it's stimulation overload or sometimes it's sensory overload. But yeah, I agree with you. How does somebody get diagnosed?
• 29:27
  Nicole Mendizabal: So if you suspected or, you know, someone suspects that you have one of these forms of, neurodivergence, you could bring it to your doctor. And usually your doctor may know someone and refer you to them. But typically someone would get diagnosed by a licensed clinician, you know, so whether that is a neuropsychologist, psychologist, some sort of licensed clinician, is able to diagnose these conditions. And we'll do different kind of tests to diagnose the condition.
• 30:01
  Melissa Shere Beek: And why is it important to get diagnosed?
• 30:04
  Nicole Mendizabal: I believe that it's important to get diagnosed because I so I see it as if it's important to the person individually. And for the most part from my professional experience working with clients and from my personal experience as well, is I think that it gives people an understanding of themselves where unfortunately a lot of these types of neurodivergence are something that when someone is not diagnosed tends to be blamed on the person. And so they internalize the feeling of, like, something is wrong with me and the sense that I'm different, but I don't know how or why and internalizing, you know, just kind of, like, the shame and something is wrong with me. Yeah. So for a lot of people, it's very validating and allows
• 30:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: I was just gonna say.
• 30:56
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. And allows them to better understand themselves, you know, so then they can kind of start working through releasing that internalized shame and, you know, understanding that this is their wiring.
• 31:11
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Is there a difference, between being diagnosed earlier in life than later in life?
• 31:17
  Nicole Mendizabal: So I believe that there is. And I work primarily with people, adults who have been late diagnosed. So I kind of see it firsthand. And I actually had an interesting experience because girls and women tend to be misdiagnosed or not diagnosed until later in life, if at all. And I was actually diagnosed when I was 11.
• 31:42
  But that I don't I don't know when that was. Like early two thousands. But, you know, back then, not much was known about ADHD, so I didn't truly understand what it meant even though I had the diagnosis. So that kind of, like, led me down this path of learning for myself and then, you know, specializing in working with others. And so what and what I see with my a lot of my clients or, you know, people who have been late diagnosed is that you, you know, kind of what we were talking about before that you think that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.
• 32:21
  And people you know, whether it's teachers or parents and usually not with bad intention. Right? They are unaware of themselves. But Right. They'll label you as being lazy or not trying hard enough.
• 32:34
  And so a lot of things that come from those experiences are depression, anxiety, low self esteem because you know that you're working extremely hard. And Yeah. Sort of, you know, then receive the message of like, well, you're just not trying hard enough. You know, like, what what are you doing? What what are you thinking?
• 32:52
  What's wrong with you is essentially the message Right. You read. And that becomes internalized and, you know, then leads to all of these other kind of
• 33:00
  Melissa Shere Beek: More shame. More sadness.
• 33:01
  Nicole Mendizabal: More shame. And I think shame is the the most damaging part of these conditions. You know, it's not the neurodivergence in itself. In my opinion, it's the shame and all of those things that come with it that were put on you.
• 33:17
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Yeah. Shame and guilt and all this. So that that was one of my next questions was the challenges of being neurodivergent. So you talked a little bit about shame and you talked a little bit about the way people in society respond to you.
• 33:32
  Are these what your patients are saying as well? That these are some of the challenges that they face as being diagnosed as neurodivergent?
• 33:41
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So, you know, it's, they have had experiences. You know, think it's a common experience for a lot of people who are neurodivergent, depending on the form of neurodivergence. I because I mostly work with people who in adults who have ADHD or are autistic or both. I do work with some OCD as well, but I think it more so applies very heavily to ADHD and autism or, you know, that overlap we talked about, ADHD, is that, there's a lot of grief at times because they, you know, they see the version of themselves that maybe could have been different.
• 34:26
  So if they had the support that they needed or the understanding and, you know, were given the the permission in a way to work in a way that works with their brain rather than masking Understood. Which is a, you know, term that I think is being talked a lot about now and very damaging for people, you know, and kind of very disconnected from themselves. Right? Like, they get the message that who I am is not okay. I need to be someone different to be emotionally safe.
• 35:01
  And so they mask and, you know, turn into a version of themselves that allows them to be safe in those circumstances and connect with others.
• 35:10
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. They they think it's more socially acceptable.
• 35:12
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And, you know, that is a a very difficult experience to then untangle from after years of doing that. And it takes, you know, a toll in many ways.
• 35:26
  So I think that's Yeah. A very common experience.
• 35:30
  Melissa Shere Beek: Do they ever discuss the benefits of being neurodivergent? Like, you know, just being creative or, like, innovative or attention to detail or, like, those kinds of things?
• 35:42
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Absolutely. I a lot of my clients and I personally take a neuro affirming approach and, like, the way I see neurodivergence and neurodiversity is in an affirming kind of way and, you know, in that kind of framework of neurodiversity where there are different brain types and we all serve society in a different kind of way. And that is, of course, not without its challenges when, unfortunately, our society is kind of more, geared towards the neurotypical, you know, kind of brain type. There is a lot of difficulties that come from that.
• 36:21
  But a lot of my clients, you know, do don't want to change how their brain works. They like the, you know, creativity and, pattern recognition and all these different kind of strengths that come with neurodivergence, which, you know, I do myself as well. And so it's just wanting to find a way to overcome the challenges. But I don't usually see
• 36:46
  Melissa Shere Beek: The challenges are more external than internal. I feel like sometimes we
• 36:49
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right. Yeah. Exactly. It's kind of like the working memory issues and know, feeling easily overwhelmed, those kinds of things. But I find that that's actually we can separate that from neurodivergence in the sense of what I have found over the years of working with clients and what kind of it comes back to is the nervous system.
• 37:14
  So when we can learn to regulate our nervous system, then usually those challenges that are associated, you know, is and kind of more so known with these things such as like ADHD tend to become much less challenging. You know? So we're able to remember things easier. And, of course, there are still some challenges there, but it becomes a lot easier or, you know, to not become so easily overwhelmed or, you know, like those kinds of things. So it does.
• 37:49
  You still have the neurodivergent brain type. Right?
• 37:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: But Right.
• 37:53
  Nicole Mendizabal: So many of the challenges that come with what you would see on the DSM.
• 37:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Teaching how to regulate your nervous system and everything.
• 38:03
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right.
• 38:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: Is the lifespan for someone who's diagnosed as neurodivergent different than someone who's neurotypical?
• 38:11
  Nicole Mendizabal: So I do know for ADHD that there is research that untreated, So that's the important part. You know, it's untreated ADHD. That's the key. Yes. Can be shorter.
• 38:24
  And that is a a complex thing. You know, I think it's due to a lot of things. But some of the things are related to, you know, what we've talked about of, masking and trauma that comes with being neurodivergent and that has physical impacts on our health and, you know, those kinds. Things. And then there's, car accidents before a certain age are higher in people who have ADHD versus, who do not.
• 38:55
  Melissa Shere Beek: I know that.
• 38:56
  Nicole Mendizabal: And there it's not fully understood why, but there are some theories, you know, distractibility, but
• 39:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: then
• 39:03
  Nicole Mendizabal: also proprioception is something that can be a challenge for a lot of people with ADHD. And what that is is just knowing where your body is in space, like that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
• 39:16
  Like that feeling of like, okay. This is like where my body is. And a a lot of us, I can very much personally attest to this, some are clumsy who have ADHD because, you know, there is that challenge with proprioception at times. Mhmm. And so, you know, kind of like all of these different things layer on to the experience and can contribute to the shorter life expectancy, but that's seen in the untreated, you know, version.
• 39:43
  So when Right. Someone is treated, it it go it goes back to being more comparable with someone who is not neurodivergent in that specific type of neurodivergence.
• 39:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: So I'm going back to what you said about new research that's going on and new diagnoses today, especially like the one with the autism and ADHD and the overlap and stuff like that. So is there a difference? Because I know there's a difference in diagnosing today than, let's say, twenty five years ago. But is there a difference in the stigma that's associated with this still? Because I feel the talk of neurodiversity is very different today than before.
• 40:31
  I know personally, like thirty years ago, I had a friend who had a child and a lot of people weren't understanding why this child needed a shadow or to help processing with information or things like that. But it made a tremendous difference in the life of that child getting the help that it needed, but it wasn't really talked about. And there was this sort of like stigma associated with it in some circles. Now I feel, I'm hoping, people are more educated, people are more aware, people have more knowledge of terminology. So what are you are you sensing as far as the stigma and the shame that's associated?
• 41:12
  Is it as was then? Are we getting better at that? Or
• 41:17
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So I do definitely think it's getting better. I do think there is still work to do and there is still some stigma. And this reminds me of a point with, you know, autism that I had forgotten to make is when we were addressing, you know, common maybe misconceptions or myths. And so with autism, I think a lot of people when they think about autism, they have something particular in mind, like a certain idea.
• 41:50
  And that's where the spectrum part comes in. Right? And it's very important. So I don't know how recently, but we now know that autism is a spectrum. And so you have what would be considered level one is someone would be what someone would be called, quote unquote, like, high functioning.
• 42:08
  It's not a term that we use that we try not to use because it implies, you know,
• 42:16
  Melissa Shere Beek: certain Certainly someone on the other end of the spectrum isn't functioning.
• 42:21
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right. Exactly. And so It's a negative connotation. Right. Exactly.
• 42:26
  And so how it is suggested to address that is someone with low support needs. You know, so that might be someone that
• 42:33
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, like that. Low support needs.
• 42:35
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. So, you know, that might be someone that you work with, that you go to school with or, you know, that you would never know that they are autistic by just, you know, looking at their behavior, that kind of thing. There might be certain things that stand out, you're like, oh, that is something that, like, sticks out to me, but usually isn't something that is noticed by a lot of people. And then you have on the other end of the spectrum, and I believe the highest level is level three if I'm not mistaken, and that's someone who would be considered high support needs. So, you know, maybe someone like the friend that you had mentioned that their child needs the support of a shadow at school or, you know, that kind of thing.
• 43:14
  So there are varying degrees and people it it doesn't just look one way.
• 43:21
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. Okay. So how do we break that stigma?
• 43:25
  Nicole Mendizabal: So I was like, if you could just briefly remind me of your previous question. So yes, the stigma and if there is still that stigma. So, you know, I do think it's definitely getting better as you mentioned. People are more aware of terminology, more accepting. And the younger generations give me a lot of hope in terms Yeah.
• 43:46
  Like it seems to continue being something that is more accepting of diversity in many ways.
• 43:54
  Melissa Shere Beek: And discussed and more Yes.
• 43:56
  Nicole Mendizabal: And discussed and, you know, not kind of like hiding these things in the shadows. Like talking about mental health and therapy and, you know, being diagnosed as autistic or having ADHD and these different kinds of things. So definitely improvement. But I think some of the stigma is still there's definitely still some internalized, like, shame that a lot of people experience. And I think that is in the difficulty of measuring up to a lot of the standards that our society has and a lot of effort that is required for that and feeling inadequate because it requires that amount of effort.
• 44:35
  Melissa Shere Beek: Mhmm.
• 44:36
  Nicole Mendizabal: And specifically with ADHD, a big one that I see and know, you know, a lot of people experience is the stigma around medication because the the medication that has the most research behind it and has seemed to be most helpful for most types of ADHD are stimulants. And so there is still very much a stigma against stimulants in treatment of ADHD. So I think that's something that people struggle with generally. Right. And then with how we can kind of work to break that stigma, I think continuing what these younger generations are doing.
• 45:13
  Right? And, like, what you're doing here is so great of, like, having these conversations and learning about people and their experiences. And, you know, in doing so, we reduce the stigma and shame. Because shame is something that, Brene Brown says or about shame and that I love is that shame, like, thrives in isolation. So when we kind of, like, talk about it, right, and bring it to the light and Right.
• 45:39
  Connect over these things and discuss them, we can help to reduce that shame that people feel and that stigma.
• 45:46
  Melissa Shere Beek: I agree. And I think also not only discussing it, but understanding terminology around it. Mhmm. And and all of it is critical as far as erasing the shame and stigma associated with the diagnosis or taking medication or anything like that. Are there certain developmental phases that that someone who's diagnosed goes through?
• 46:08
  So I know your clients are mostly older, not so much children, but
• 46:13
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah.
• 46:13
  Melissa Shere Beek: Maybe a broad Yes.
• 46:16
  Nicole Mendizabal: I pretty I haven't worked, with kids in a a while. I did work very much with teens, when I first started out and still do work with some teens, but, they're older kind of teens. But with autism, what I believe the research still says, and, you know, as these things are evolving, it might be something that changes or that has already changed. But early intervention has been the gold standard. So in importance of getting diagnosed, you know, know that's something we talked about.
• 46:47
  That seems to be important specifically for autism because intervening earlier with support and treatment, right, and whatever the challenges are and the support that's needed seems to be helpful on the trajectory of that per that person's life or that individual. And with ADHD, so some things that would relate specifically to development is that hormones play a pretty big role in ADHD and something about ADHD is that it's not a static condition. You know, it's not, like, the same all of the time. It is very much something that varies. It can vary from day to day and across the lifespan.
• 47:35
  So hormones is one of the things that affects the severity or the presentation of ADHD throughout the life. And so that is why girls specifically seem to be more affected in adolescents because that's when puberty is happening. Right? And our hormones
• 47:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: Raging hormones.
• 47:54
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right. Our menstruation. And so our estrogen is changing and, you know, all of these things. And so and then you also have later on as well, right, like perimenopause, menopause. A lot of women tend to be diagnosed around these times because that is when their symptoms become a lot more challenging and evident.
• 48:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, that's interesting to know that.
• 48:14
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, or sometimes people didn't even find it difficult, right, or maybe they had systems in place or it varies depending on the person. But that is a very common time for people, specifically women, to get diagnosed because of the impact of hormones.
• 48:31
  Melissa Shere Beek: So you just said something about symptoms. What are some symptomologies that one would experience or a family member would notice if someone was experiencing them? Yeah.
• 48:44
  Nicole Mendizabal: So with ADHD, common symptoms is so I think this is the kind of spectrum part. Right? And I think this kind of plays into when people say, like, everybody has ADHD because this is a common experience for a lot of people. But the whole point of it being a disorder, right, what is defined as a disorder under the DSM is that it is significantly interfering with the quality of someone's life. So, you know, it's not like, oh, I forgot my keys and, you know, that happens every once in a while or so.
• 49:18
  Something that is a consistent issue in that person's life and affects the quality of their life. So forgetfulness is one of them, you know, challenges with working memory. Emotional regulation is not in the DSM yet. I believe it's gonna be in the next version as we had talked about, but that is a common one. So, you know, feeling easily overwhelmed or having a difficult time, getting back to a place of regulation when you are overwhelmed.
• 49:49
  Melissa Shere Beek: The So really a disruption.
• 49:52
  Nicole Mendizabal: What's that?
• 49:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: Really a disruption.
• 49:55
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. Yes. Exactly. And this is also which it's really not, like, funny, But it is quite interesting that a lot of the, like, true symptoms that I see as a clinician and, like, in my own personal life and just from, like, real life experience versus what's in the DSM is quite different. You know?
• 50:15
  What that's kind of, like, one presentation. And, again, makes sense because it's based off of, like, little boys. But all of these other things that are very challenging for a lot of people are not in it. And so, you know, one of those is we I think it's more commonly known that sensory sensitivity is associated with autism. But it's also common
• 50:37
  Melissa Shere Beek: for
• 50:37
  Nicole Mendizabal: a lot of people with ADHD as well to be sensitive to, different sensory inputs. So and that's believed to be because the sensory gating part of our brain, unfortunately, does not always, do what it does in a neurotypical brain where, you know, it kind of filters information. So Right. Of, like, this is what you need to know. This is what you don't need to know.
• 51:01
  So that can lead to sensory overwhelm because all of that data and information from your senses comes in. And I, you know, would then make sense to lead into emotional dysregulation and those kinds of things.
• 51:16
  Melissa Shere Beek: Well, goes along with what you said about the research with sixty percent overlap with autism and ADHD. Right, Fascinating. Yes. So where does someone go for help? If a okay, so an adult, where does an adult go for help?
• 51:31
  And then also children, if a parent recognizes some of the symptomology in a child, where where do they begin to go for help?
• 51:39
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. So that's a great question. And if that person, you know, whether it's the parent or the child is old enough and sees their own kind of primary doctor or if it's a pediatrician, you know, and it goes with parent, that kind of thing, you can start there. And at times, they can refer you to someone. But if not, you can also just go directly to if you are looking to get diagnosed to a licensed clinician.
• 52:07
  So someone like a neuropsychologist, psychologist, some, you know, licensed clinician that is able to, diagnose and treat. So specifically in ADHD because there is the treatment in terms of medication. I'm not sure in terms of autism specifically Mhmm. Like medication or that kind of thing. But with ADHD, you know, then you can go to seek if that is a route that someone would want to seek you can, you know, once you are diagnosed then receive.
• 52:42
  Melissa Shere Beek: So was going ask you about some of those treatments. Besides medical treatments, are there different kinds of therapies for treatments? Like I know in autism there will probably be some occupational therapy or some physical therapy or maybe speech therapy or sensory therapy, like different things like that. What are you seeing as far as different forms of treatments for both ADHD and autism or anything else that's considered a neurodivergent diagnosis?
• 53:09
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. So with ADHD specifically there are types of therapies that are evidence based and shown to be helpful with reduction in symptoms of ADHD. So one of those is CBT. Now the caveat there is that it's specialized a bit to work with ADHD because standard kind of CBT doesn't seem as helpful Wait.
• 53:43
  Melissa Shere Beek: I just have to say for our listeners, CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy
• 53:46
  Nicole Mendizabal: Oh, yes. Sorry about that.
• 53:47
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. I just wanna make sure. No. No. That's okay.
• 53:48
  I understand what you're saying, then I realize maybe someone listening may not know what we're talking about.
• 53:52
  Nicole Mendizabal: Absolutely. So that is, you know, one treatment that is evidence based. And, you know, an important note as well with medication is that there's this saying that is there is truth behind. And so it's that pills don't teach skills. So the medication can be very helpful for a lot of people and even life changing for a lot of people.
• 54:16
  But it doesn't change the challenges that are as a lot of the challenges that are associated with ADHD. So it can make, you know, implementing those changes that would resolve those challenges easier. But it Right. Of itself does not make them go away.
• 54:36
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right. We still have to have a new skill set and learn different patterns of ourselves.
• 54:41
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right. Yes. And so it's it can be used, as a form of, you know, neuroplasticity. So changing the brain, right, in certain pathways. And now I think this is kind of where we go back to the brain structure and type, right, that it's and the wiring, and that doesn't change.
• 54:59
  Your brain is still neurodivergent, but you can develop new pathways that make certain things that are associated with those challenges easier, like working memory. Mindfulness is a great and has research behind it in helping with symptoms of ADHD, you know, and those kinds of things. And then in terms of, like, not necessarily therapy, but lifestyle interventions, there are a lot of lifestyle interventions that are very helpful as well. So there you know, as I had mentioned, research is still emerging. So there are newer theories that have some research behind them and why researchers believe that that these things may be the case.
• 55:46
  But that ADHD, for example, there is a theory that it might be a circadian related in large part to circadian rhythm, disruptions. So a lot of people who have ADHD have what's called delayed sleep phase syndrome. I think it's up to, like, seventy percent. So, essentially, all that means is that there are melatonin. It doesn't, we don't have the same rise of melatonin at the same time that most neurotypical people do.
• 56:19
  It's usually about two to three hours behind. So that then disturbs sleep. And sleep is something that we know can significantly exacerbate your ADHD symptoms. Right. And there are, you know, common deficiencies in certain vitamins and, like, nutrients that are also common with ADHD.
• 56:39
  Of course, not everyone, but it is something that I would recommend to my clients to get blood work done to make sure that these things aren't something that they're experiencing and making their symptoms worse. So some of those are like vitamin D, omega-three, magnesium.
• 56:57
  Melissa Shere Beek: Melatonin, magnesium.
• 56:59
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Yeah. There's a few of them. So I always recommend getting your blood work done.
• 57:05
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, that's brilliant. Absolutely. Because why not help yourself with that? That'd be amazing to Oh, wow. It's a lot.
• 57:16
  Nicole Mendizabal: I know. And I'm already in my mind like, oh, I didn't mention the overlap with trauma and neurodivergence but I think if I mentioned all of the things that I had like in my mind of like this is important to note we would be here for quite some time and not
• 57:28
  Melissa Shere Beek: No give me more important stuff because I want to know what society needs to know.
• 57:33
  Nicole Mendizabal: Perfect. Perfect. So yes. With it so with the I wanna make sure I mention, you know, most of the lifestyle stuff.
• 57:44
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yes. Maybe more of that.
• 57:46
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Absolutely. So specifically with ADHD as well is something that we know is very helpful is movement and exercise. And that's what we have found, you know, or the research has found is that brain derived neurotrophic factor, I hope I'm saying that right, BDNF, is something that is associated with higher intensity exercise and that's something that can help with ADHD symptoms. We also know that blood sugar like, significant increases or drops in blood sugar also can worsen ADHD symptoms.
• 58:24
  So, you know, that is something that can help as well as making sure that you are maintaining regulated blood sugar levels for the most part. Mhmm. And then I know we mentioned proprioception. And then another thing is interoception. So interoception is our eighth sense.
• 58:43
  So I know most of us hear about the five senses. Right? But we actually have eight senses. And interoception is one of them and is a common, challenge for neurodivergent people. And specifically with, ADHD and autism, you know, are the two that I'm more familiar with.
• 59:02
  And in that challenge is that there is a disconnect in the mind and body. So sometimes we are not aware that we're hungry until we're starving or it relates to emotional regulation as well. You know? Sometimes that sense of when people can feel stress building up in themselves is not as easily recognized in people who are neurodivergent specifically here, you know, autistic or have ADHD and or. And so that kind of contributes to a lot of these challenges.
• 59:37
  Right? And then also with the eating because if you don't know that you're hungry, you're not gonna eat and then your blood sugar drops. Right? And, hydration is another thing that impacts symptoms as well. So it's a very complex snobble effect.
• 59:50
  Yeah. Right. It's like a very multilayered, you know, kind of thing and complex. And so that's why I was like, well, there are a bunch of things here, but, you know, I just wanna make sure I'm not overwhelming people because this is years of like No.
• 1:00:04
  Melissa Shere Beek: Information. It's Yeah. It's incredible. I love it. Keep it coming.
• 1:00:08
  Nicole Mendizabal: Perfect.
• 1:00:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: So what does society need to know? What what how how can we how can we help?
• 1:00:15
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. That's a great question. And so I think something important for society to know as well is that trauma is very common in the neurodivergent nervous system in people. So I think in order to kind of address that, we need to first start with understanding what is trauma. Because I think a lot of people and I know a lot of my clients have this experience of thinking, like, well, it wasn't that bad.
• 1:00:45
  So, no, like, don't have any trauma. And trauma isn't something, like, bad that happens to you. That's not the definition of trauma. You know, we don't get to decide what's traumatic and what's not. It's your nervous system's capacity to cope with what happened.
• 1:01:01
  And since we kind of, you know, discussed that neuro people who are neurodivergent and the neurodivergent nervous system tends to be more sensitive, you're more susceptible to trauma because, you know, your nervous system doesn't naturally have much capacity. You cope with a lot of the challenges. And then you layer onto that a lot of the things that people who are neurodivergent, especially growing up undiagnosed or late diagnosed experience. It makes the perfect storm for trauma. So, you know, I think that's where then us having these conversations and improving to reduce stigma and shame surrounding neurodivergence and all of these things helps because then, you know, it makes that the likelihood and that someone would experience trauma just as a result of being neurodivergent to be less likely.
• 1:01:56
  Right.
• 1:01:58
  Melissa Shere Beek: You said something else too. Want to go back to it. Oh gosh, I just lost my train of thought. No, about trauma and diagnosis later and things like that. Is it harder being diagnosed later?
• 1:02:12
  Just want to go back to this for one second because behaviors are learned and set in motion. So it's different when you're dealing with a child who you can help them process information, help them process experiences, and sort of with that neuroplasticity train their brain. Whereas I find that people diagnosed later, correct me if I'm wrong, it's harder to retrain the brain once that behavior is sort of set and established.
• 1:02:46
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. Yes. So it's definitely not work with that. Yeah. So it's definitely not impossible, which is great.
• 1:02:54
  Right? Like, I love I tell all my clients about neuroplasticity, you know, and, like, love that idea, and it's supported. Right? Like, it is a scientifically supported, thing that we know about neuroplasticity and your brain's ability to change at any point in life. But, yes, it is easier when you are a child.
• 1:03:12
  When your brain is still developing, it is easier to have those changes versus when you're an adult, it is still very much possible. But a lot of things become ingrained in your identity and something that is very common for a lot of neurodivergent people and kind of nervous systems is what we call complex trauma. And it's not in the DSM, but it is in the international codes of, you know, diagnostics. So other countries do recognize it. And maybe in this next version of the DSM, we'll have it.
• 1:03:47
  But essentially complex trauma is trauma over the lifespan and consistently an individual experiencing, especially at crucial developmental points. And so that very much becomes part of someone's identity and is difficult to disentangle from, you know, that of, like, okay. These are challenges I experienced versus I am the problem. And this learned helplessness that can kind of come with that at times because you've tried so many things up until this point. Right?
• 1:04:20
  And so you if it doesn't work, you tend to come back to this idea that you are the problem. And so I think that's where these modalities that address the brain and body, right, and not just kind of like coping skills or talking through it in the nervous system, which is so important, are essential to being able to overcome those things.
• 1:04:45
  Melissa Shere Beek: So enlightening what you said about trauma. I had absolutely no idea about the connection of trauma and the way we cope and the way we perceive that something that was associated with ADHD or autism or anything like that.
• 1:04:58
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yes. Wow. It's It's big huge.
• 1:05:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: And I had no idea. So is there anything else that we left out that we need to know, that we need to discuss, that you want to tell us about neurodiversity and dealing with neurodivergence? I
• 1:05:17
  Nicole Mendizabal: am sure when I read through my eight pages of notes that I'll be like, oh, but I do not want to be
• 1:05:22
  Melissa Shere Beek: over We can have a part two.
• 1:05:24
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. That would be great. So, you know, I think that we covered a lot of important things, and I'm sure there is definitely more in, like, more detail that could, definitely be addressed as well. But I think, you know, it kind of comes back to my opinion and from my experience, both personally and professionally. The thing that is most helpful aside from, you know, reducing stigma and shame, which relates to this because that is essentially, you know, to be regulate for your nervous system to be regulated, you have to feel safe.
• 1:06:00
  And, unfortunately, a lot of people who are neurodivergent and have, you know, that neurodivergent nervous system have not felt safe growing up because, you know, they didn't right, they didn't feel safe to be themselves. They had to mask. They didn't understand themselves. Things were overwhelming, you know, a lot of these complex experiences. And so what I find to be the most helpful thing for my clients and for myself personally and my experience has been focusing on nervous system regulation.
• 1:06:35
  That has been is very helpful, you know, and I think one of the most life changing things. And then, you know, kind of, of course, the reducing stigma and shame, it comes into that because if you feel safe around others and, you know, not judged for just being who you are and allowed to be your authentic self and connecting to your authentic self, I think that's another important point, is a lot of people, you know, who are neurodivergent, especially if you're late diagnosed, have a hard time even knowing who they are because they've Right. Had to conform for so long or, you know, mask in these ways. Yeah. That's a challenge.
• 1:07:10
  So that's kind of my Yeah. The tidbit.
• 1:07:13
  Melissa Shere Beek: I think that's a huge takeaway. I I like what you said about, like, they've had to mask all the all their life and they can't be their authentic self, but the huge takeaway is regulating the nervous system. I think that's huge. I appreciate I
• 1:07:27
  Nicole Mendizabal: think if we were all, you know, just allowed to be ourselves, right, whether you're neurotypical, neurodivergent, whatever the, you know, form of neurodiversity is or, you know, kind of neurotype in this category of neurodiversity, we would all be so much better off instead of always comparing ourselves to others, you know, and trying to be like other people or others comparing us to others. Right? And I know. So much easier said than done. And I definitely compare myself, so don't get me wrong.
• 1:07:55
  But I think that we would all be better off in the world if we did.
• 1:07:59
  Melissa Shere Beek: I think there's a beauty in appreciating our uniqueness.
• 1:08:02
  Nicole Mendizabal: Absolutely.
• 1:08:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: Everybody has something incredible to offer.
• 1:08:05
  Nicole Mendizabal: So Right. Yeah. Right. It's like we do not want the same. That would not serve us.
• 1:08:10
  It it really does serve all of us.
• 1:08:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Certainly wouldn't be fun.
• 1:08:13
  Nicole Mendizabal: Right? Yeah. Make it more fun. Let's add some some Spice.
• 1:08:18
  Melissa Shere Beek: We like it. Little salt and sugar. It's good. Oh my god. Thank you so much.
• 1:08:23
  Before I let you go, though, I have a little thing that I do with my guests before I sign off. It's called quickie questions. Are you game?
• 1:08:30
  Nicole Mendizabal: I'm game. Let's do
• 1:08:31
  Melissa Shere Beek: it. Good. Okay. Great. The first question, is there anything you're afraid to try?
• 1:08:40
  Nicole Mendizabal: I'm scared of heights. I I have a best friend who wants to go skydiving. I'm like, why?
• 1:08:45
  Melissa Shere Beek: No. I'll watch you.
• 1:08:47
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know that I need to jump out of a plane. I I like trying new things, but I think I'm good with that one.
• 1:08:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. No. Thank you. Mhmm. Someone you'd like to meet.
• 1:08:57
  It could be a historical figure, a family ancestor, a fictional character.
• 1:09:02
  Nicole Mendizabal: I think currently it would be Andrew Huberman. He is a neuroscientist and has a podcast himself. And I've learned a lot about neuroscience in the brain and, you know, gone even deeper into nervous system, education there. So that's been my latest, hyperfixation as, you know, neuroscience and all of
• 1:09:27
  Melissa Shere Beek: these things. If you're listening
• 1:09:29
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. Right. Andrew Cooperman. Let's
• 1:09:33
  Melissa Shere Beek: make that connection.
• 1:09:34
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah.
• 1:09:34
  Melissa Shere Beek: Okay. How do you relax?
• 1:09:38
  Nicole Mendizabal: I am a big animal lover. So pretty much anything that makes my dog happy is what I will do to relax. And I also love binging a a good TV series. I try to, you know, not do that too much because I know springtime and yada yada yada. But that is a a guilty, you know, quote, unquote, pleasure that I enjoy doing.
• 1:10:01
  And I also really enjoy being outdoors. So Yeah. The sunshine specifically. I miss the the Florida sunshine very much.
• 1:10:08
  Melissa Shere Beek: Come back.
• 1:10:09
  Nicole Mendizabal: I I I will be tomorrow, isn't
• 1:10:12
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, yay. Yeah. Okay. Last one. Do you have a favorite movie?
• 1:10:17
  Or it could be a TV show because you just said you like to binge stuff.
• 1:10:22
  Nicole Mendizabal: Movie, I don't think I have a particular favorite. Like, Titanic sticks out in mine is memorable, but I grew up watching. My grandma had the VHS, and so I'd watch it regularly. So I think that's just why I think of it. And, obviously, a great movie.
• 1:10:40
  But TV show, at one point, it was The Office, but that was a while ago. But I guess I'll still go with The Office cause
• 1:10:50
  Melissa Shere Beek: Yeah. You could rebinge that. That's fine.
• 1:10:52
  Nicole Mendizabal: Is actually a good one and therapist related. It's really funny. I I didn't care for it too much the first season, but I kept watching and really enjoy them now. That is not what Which one? Therapy shrinking.
• 1:11:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: Oh, it's great.
• 1:11:04
  Nicole Mendizabal: Yeah. It it is great. That is not what therapy is usually like, people. So just watching No.
• 1:11:09
  Melissa Shere Beek: But it's all about their relationships. Yeah. And the dynamic and the love between all of them. Yes.
• 1:11:15
  Nicole Mendizabal: Why I love it. Know, it's like shows how much we care as therapists and things that maybe we would do that sometimes isn't the best, but
• 1:11:22
  Melissa Shere Beek: Right, right. I love it. Well, thank you so much for bringing clarity and understanding to the terms and to giving us such important information and an education in all of this. I I really truly appreciate it and I'm so glad that you were here today and and and grateful that we were able to make this happen.
• 1:11:40
  Nicole Mendizabal: Of course. Thank you so much. This was so great and I hope that this was helpful for your listeners. And you're doing, you know, such a service in having these conversations. So
• 1:11:53
  Melissa Shere Beek: No. You are. I'm so appreciative. This is amazing. Thank you.
• 1:11:57
  Thank you so much. I'm gonna just hold on one second. I'm gonna do my sign off, and then we could talk a little bit after.
• 1:12:02
  Nicole Mendizabal: No problem.
• 1:12:03
  Melissa Shere Beek: To our listeners, thank you so much. So grateful you're here. Keep listening. Keep learning. Keep laughing.
• 1:12:09
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• 1:12:21
  Listen to beek on being wherever you get your podcast. All episodes are automatically transcribed. Big shout out and a huge thank you to Steven Chen at Penthouse Studios. Beek on being was recorded at Penthouse Studios and is a proud member of the Penthouse Podcast Network.