Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 711: The Movie Script Selling Game with Kathie Fong Yoneda

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IFH 711: The Movie Script Selling Game with Kathie Fong Yoneda · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Filmhustle Podcast, Episode number seven to eleven. It's not about selling, it's
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about creating value for your audience. Jerry Aloca broadcasting from the back alley in
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Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to
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survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz.
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And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of
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the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.
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Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur. How to turn your
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independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before for independent
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filmmakers can make money with their films from predatory film distributors ripping them off to
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for success. The book is available in paperback, ebook, and of course
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audiobook. If you want to order it, just head over to www dot
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film bizbook dot com. That's film Bizbook dot com. Well, guys,
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today on the show we have industry veteran story analysts, story consultant and best
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selling author Kathy fung Yanetta her book The Script Selling Game, The Hollywood Insiders
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look at Getting Your Script Sold and produced. It is a bestseller and now
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in its second edition. And I absolutely had a ball talking to Kathy.
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She was wonderful, has so many great stories, so much great insight about
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how the industry runs. Insider tips on how to get your screenplay scene and
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produced and so so much more. So, without any further ado, please
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enjoy my conversation with Kathy fo Yanetta. I'd like to welcome to show,
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Kathy fung Yanetta. How are you, Kathy? I'm fine, Thank you?
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How about you? I'm doing good as good as we can be in
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this crazy, upside down world that we live in today. But thank you
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for being on the show. I wanted to bring you on because I loved
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your book, The Script Selling Game, and it is I think a part
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of the screenwriting conversation with screenwriters that's not talked about enough. I try to
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yell about it at the top of my lungs from them from the mountain too.
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You understand, you need to understand the business side. You have to
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understand how the game is played. You need to It's not all about plot
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and characters and that. It is all about that, but it also is
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about the business. Like show business. There's two of them. You have
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to connect. So I wanted to bring you on the show and kind of
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dig into that. But before we get started, how did you get into
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the business. It's about the only thing I owe to my ex husband.
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My ex husband worked for famous director Stanley Kramer, and I was just doing
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secretarial work and he was telling me, well, if you can do secretary
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of work work at the studios, they at least have a union, you
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get paid a little bit more. So I applied at Universal Studios and surprisingly
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I got in. And it's kind of an interesting fact is that this is
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many, many years ago. I mean we're talking about in nineteen sixty nine.
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I mean in the industry for a long time. And what happened is
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that about I got put into the what they call the secretarial pool, and
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I was I was just doing my work and one of the girls in the
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secretarial pool came up to me and she said, you know, my friend
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was supposed to get that job. And I said, what what do you
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mean. She said, the only reason you got it is because you're Asian.
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And I thought, well, that's that's kind of a crazy thing for
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her to say. But I just looked at her and I just said,
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well, I don't know. All I know is I got the job.
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I went down to the you know, to the personnel office, and I
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asked the gal. I said, well, you know, what is this
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all about, you know? And she said, well, it's true.
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We were looking for it, specifically somebody who was of another ethnicity, because
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the industry is liable to get sued by the MO, by the by the
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United States government because we had less than one tenth of one percent of our
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workforce is uh, it's you know, minority, so everything else is white.
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And so it was a big wake up call for that industry. And
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she said, but you know you still we didn't hire you just because of
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that. We hired you because you were the best candidate. You actually typed
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faster, you gave a great you know, little you know, talk about
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who you are and and and sort of what you what you were interested in,
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and that's why we hired you. And so I kind of just worked
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my way up the ranks in the secretarial pool and eventually started working in the
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industrial excuse me, the executive office over at Warner Brothers. And that's where
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I met the man who became my mentor. His name was Richard Shepherd,
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and I don't know, I don't know a lot of people. People might
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not know him, but he was a producer. He was a top studio
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exact he helped to form I believe it was Creative Management Associates, which used
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to be a very famous agency. He went off on location for one of
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his films and I was left in the at the office, and so all
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these scripts kept coming in and I was getting bored, so I started reading
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them. And when he came back, he started to read picked up one
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of the scripts, started to read it and said, oh, you don't
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need to read that one, because well why not? And I said,
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it's not very good, and so he picked up another one. I said,
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you know, that one's even worse. You don't need to read it.
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And he looked at me and he said, how many of these did
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you read? And I said all of them. There were probably about forty
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scripts. It was pretty boring. When he was calm, so he said
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to me a favorite. He said, could you just do you know,
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a few lines telling me what it's about, and then do a paragraph on
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why you liked it or didn't like it. So I started doing that,
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and I found that it was just like doing book reports in a way,
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only they had to do scripts. So that's how I got started. And
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he said, you know, you are really good at this. You're very
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You're able to sort of get the essence of the story, and you must
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watch a lot of movies because you're able to determine whether it's not works.
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And so he was my mentor and what he started to do was involved me
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in some of his productions. So I became a production secretary and I actually
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was the first Asian female not only at Universal but at Fox. Now I
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was the first what they call production secretary to ever get a credit, and
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it was a credit was on Robin and her hand wow. And then then
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my boss moved over to be become president over at MGM before it eventually disintegrated.
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But while I was while going over there, he said, well,
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you know, the good thing is guess what you get to have your own
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secretary. You'll be the number one secretary. And I said, well,
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I'm not so sure about that, and he said, what do you mean?
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And so I did my first deal. I wanted to tear to us.
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I said, well, I'm happy to go over to MGM with you
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and I'll be I'll set up the office and i'll hire you know, somebody
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to to you know, to be the other secretary. But after a couple
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of months, after she's gotten used to everything, I would like to have
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the opportunity to spend thirty days in the story department as a story analyst,
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because in those days, in order to become a member of that guilt you
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had to work for thirty straight days and then you had to go through I
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guess it's sort of I don't know, qualifications or something like that. Yeah,
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a series of qualification things that you had to do. And so I
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did it, and I was one of the few that actually got it,
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got in right away on the on the first thing. I didn't have to
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take it take it over and over again. So I became a member of
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the Story Analysts Guild, and that's how I moved around from studio. So
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let me ask you, how how many scripts have you read in your career?
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You know, I really should have counted them when I started. I
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didn't. I didn't really think about counting them. But tens of thousands,
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yeah, I would say, you know, because listen, I've been reading
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scripts since about nineteen seventy three. We'll be right back after a word from
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our sponsor, and now back to the show. So and I yeah,
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so and I still was reading them when I became an executive over at Disney
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and so and I was. I was a VP over at Island Pictures,
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and I was still reading scripts as part of my job. And I'm still
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reading scripts now because I'm helping a lot of the new writers out there to
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sort of get started. So I'm a consultant now. So what should writers
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do in the development process that can give their story a fighting chance? Well,
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I think I should say something like, you could read my book.
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That would be a good Well, we're always gonna say, we're gonna begin
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every answer to every question, you should read my book that's being said.
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What else could you say? Well, you know it? First of all,
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if there, if you are a writer yourself, think about the scripts,
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the movies that really touched you, that are in that genre that you're
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doing, and get a hold of that script. You can usually go there's
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scripts dot com and a couple of other places that you can get you know,
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copies of scripts and look at more movies in that arena and see what
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were the scenes, the key scenes that were able to give you a good
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sense of the characters, their motivation, What is it that made that movie
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work? All those are the things that you need to work on to make
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sure that your movie in that particular genre has all of those different qualities to
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it. I really. I mean, I love working with writers, especially
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the newbie writers, because they have a there's still something about them where there's
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that originality, and I think so they haven't been beaten up exposed too much.
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I haven't been exposed too much, just some of the realities that we
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face in the industry. It does become rather tough. I mean when you
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when you become a paid screenwriter, yes, you will do a lot of
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writing and everything, but you also have a lot of other disappointments, and
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there's always knowing that there are other writers out there that are before you and
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behind you. It's just it's one of those things. And moods change and
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genres change on what's popular. You've got to kind of keep up with that.
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But what's nice now is that they're streaming and there's web series and there's
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lots of other ways that I think writers can actually express themselves. I used
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to be on the board of the La web Fest many years ago. I
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think it was starting back in two thousand and nine or so, and it
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was just amazing because the idea of taking something and winnowing it down to just
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watching three or four minutes of it and having people come back the next week
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to watch the next chapter, the next chapter, the next chapter. It
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just it gave me such a wonderful way of saying of being able to tell
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other writers start off small, if you're unsure, start off small and and
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go big. Probably one of the best success stories is, you know,
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there were there were a couple of people who had wonderful web series which eventually,
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you know, turned into while people started looking at those web series and
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realize that these people had a lot of talent and they were hired. So
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that that's one of the things that happened. And I think web series is
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another way of doing it. Is, especially if you want to break into
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television, get used to being able to tell things to scinctly, and you
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really have to develop those characters right away. And so I always tell people
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when you if you have a television series idea, start off small, start
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by by doing something like a web series. And I mean, the world
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is changing so rapidly, uh, and I mean just from I mean,
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I can only imagine since nineteen seventy three, how the world has changed in
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the film industry, how movies have changed, how though everything has changed so
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dramatically, there is more than ever need for content because there's so many outlets
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out right now, and there's so many streaming services, and and features in
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a lot of ways are not leading the pact anymore. It's more scripted television,
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and that's where a lot of these these independent voices are going. And
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that's, to be honest, was where a lot of the money is made.
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Is I mean, unless it's the upper echelon in the studio system,
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you're you're doing Marvel movies or pole movies, and that's a different conversation,
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but generally speaking, television is where a writer can actually start making a living.
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Even a low budget streaming series, you'll be able to make some money
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as a writer. Which if you're making any money as a writer, you're
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winning. Oh yes. But the one thing I again when I said at
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the beginning of the show, is a lot of screenwriters just don't even think
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about the politics the business side. What can screenwriters do to prepare themselves better
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for the business of screenwriting? We know that it's kind of like film school.
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Film school beat you up about the process of making a movie, but
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they don't teach you how to sell the movie. They don't teach you how
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to get a job in the industry. They don't teach you how to make
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any money. All they do is teach you the art. And the same
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thing goes with screenwriting a lot of times. You know, there's a thousand
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books out there about and a thousand courses about how to write a screenplay,
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very few about the business side of like how to actually make a living,
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how to sell your script. What can they do to better prepare themselves for
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the business side. Well, I think that what's difficult for a lot of
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writers is they would rather just have the words on paper do the talking for
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them. Learning how to pitch is really one of the more difficult things to
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get people to do, and it's being able to sort of boil down the
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heart of your story to let people know what your project is all about.
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And sometimes, you know, people are so used to being able to say,
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well, and this scene, this happens, and then this it's sort
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of like they start telling you the whole story, but they're not selling it.
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It's just it's just like to whoever it's listening to it, it's just
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a lot of words you need to be able to very succinctly tell your story.
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And so pitching is one of those things that I found. It's just
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as one of those things you've got to develop that as one of your talents.
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It can't be just handing somebody your script or your book. You have
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to be able to pitch it. And in doing that, you can put
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in your own personality. And I think that's important because a lot of it
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is when you're talking with somebody, they may have a wonderful story that they're
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pitching to you, but if they don't have the same kind of if they
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don't have a kind of personality that you feel you can work with, that
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can sometimes blow the deal. So this is where it's also this is I
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mean, you have to pitch to everybody you know, whether it's a studio
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exact of somebody in production, even if it's somebody you happen to meet at
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a party who works in the industry and they ask you what are you doing?
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Oh, well, I wrote a screenplay. Oh tell me what's about
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now. The other thing that's helpful is if you belong to a writer's group,
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and there's so many online writers groups nowadays, and there are places like
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Stage thirty two and a couple of other places that a lot of people are
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very much aware of it. Those kinds of groups are very very helpful.
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You can find people who are going through the same thing you're doing. And
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that's what I like about this business now. Before it used to be so
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competitive that nobody would tell anybody anything because they were afraid somebody else would get
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ahead. Nowadays people seem to be willing to help one another, and in
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doing so, I've noticed that I do a lot of retreats, so I
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have to work with a lot of writers in a large group. And the
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idea of working that way, working together or working side by side with somebody
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and seeing what they're doing, how they're developing their material, and they can
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see how you're developing your material, and you guys are able to exchange ideas
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and give some advice to one another. It builds up a friendship. Not
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only that, but if one person makes it, they're gonna you know,
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if they hear about, oh there's another job up and we need somebody else
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on the staff, they're gonna They're they're friends are gonna probably be the next
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one. They're gonna be getting that phone call or email saying, hey,
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guess what we need somebody else on staff. So those kinds of things that
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you know, I mean, they used to have more conferences. Now there's
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a lot more online ones now, and I think that helps the small group.
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Online ones are kind of what's going on now because they used to have
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the ones where you would go to a hotel in center or something and you
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would have it. And I used to be a member of a lot of
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those. I taught it a lot of them. But we'll be right back
19:56
after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And
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it was great because you know, you were able to sometimes meet agents and
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producers and all that, but you were doing it with hundreds of other people.
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This way, at least online, you can start making your own contacts
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more directly. So I do think that, you know, joining some of
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those groups is really a step forward. Can you can you please tell the
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audience how important it is to build relationships in this business. That this business
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is so relationship based. I've said it on the show a bunch of times,
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and I will continue to say it because I want to hammer it into
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them that if you don't like, you could be the next Sorkin mixed with
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Tarantino's Love Child. I mean, you can be the next best writer ever.
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And if you don't understand how to get to somebody or at least build
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relationships to get to open those doors, you're going to be standing in the
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sidelines. Because I've even read I mean I haven't read nearly as many scripts
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as you, but even I've read scripts that I'm like, how is this
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not produced? This is an Oscar winning story, This is well written by
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a really big writer, and it's not getting produced. So if these guys
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who have credits, who have relationships, who have amazing content can't get their
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stuff done, what is the chance of a newbie writer having it so to
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at least stack the chips relationships do what you agree? Well, I actually
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think now is actually a very good time for those of us who maybe don't
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have as many credits or who are just getting into the business, because there
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are a lot of companies that will no longer exist after this COVID experience.
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Oh yeah, and so there's a lot of people then who are now branching
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off with people they've worked with to form smaller production companies or smaller entities.
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And you know that includes even agencies there's still a lot there's a lot of
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stuff going on, you know, with there is the writer's guilt. But
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then remember they did try to get rid of the writer's guilt and that didn't
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work. And I think that people are realizing who your real friends are and
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who you can really work with and talk to during this pandemic. And I
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think that's what's going to help people to form some of the relationships that they
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need. And it's it's interesting. You know, a lot of the people
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form things through film school. And I can't stress enough that even if you
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are not in college or at a film program at a universe city or something,
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talk to some of your friends. Do you know, do you have
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a friend that knows someone who's who does camera work, or somebody else who
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you know look at other people outside of writers, because the more information that
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you have about the process of getting a movie or a television series made really
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can help you with your writing and with your relationship building. Do you recommend
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that writers team up with directors and producers at a small level to create a
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web series let's say that's low budget, so they can have something produced that
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they can have actors acting their lines and it kind of might set them apart
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a little bit when going into one of these pitch meetings. They're like,
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oh, yeah, I've produced my scripts have been produced four or five times
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in these series. You could just go to Amazon, or you can watch
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it get better yet on Netflix if you can get it to that point.
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But even on Amazon or some other place that it kind of sets you apart
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a little been. It kind of puts the power a little bit more in
24:03
the writer's hands as opposed to just always looking for someone to give them the
24:07
opportunity or open that door for them. Well, you know, to me,
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it shows It also shows that you as an individual are not afraid to
24:17
get out there, that you're so passionate about your work that you're willing to
24:22
put yourself on the line. We cannot work, I don't think any of
24:26
us can if we just stand there and hold our hands out and expect somebody
24:30
to shake it and say, yes, we hiring you. You've got to
24:33
prove that. And when they know that you've done this, if you've you've
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paired up with some other people that you are familiar with and that you guys
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get long and you do things well together, like in a web series.
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It really I think gives whoever you're talking to a better a stronger sense of
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who you are and that you have the passion to move ahead. Uh,
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and and that it doesn't You're not going to let anything stop you. You
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you certainly don't mind, you know, working with other people. And that's
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that's the main thing is. You know a lot of people have made the
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mistake of thinking that Okay, you know, I've got this job and that's
25:15
it, and I now have you know, I've got something on my resume
25:18
here and they don't fail to keep up with their relationships with some of the
25:23
people that they may have been working with. Uh. This happens a lot
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with movies and television. The important thing is if you are in a writer's
25:33
room, like you are on most television series, you you form relationships very
25:40
quickly. You are in that room sometimes for twelve to fifteen hours a day,
25:45
for five six days in a room, and you have you have to
25:51
prove that your team player and your your you know, personalities always have to
25:56
come out because you can't always hold back on something. If you believe in
26:00
something, I mean, your personality comes through. And if you work with
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people who have similar personalities or similar points of view when they move. If
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they get a you know, say one of their scripts is bought for a
26:15
television series, you better believe they're going to think about, oh yeah,
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all these writers that I've worked with that I got along with, They're going
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to hire those people. So having building those kind of relationships are very key,
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and starting off on a smaller level with web series is a perfect way
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to go. Now, when you get into a room, let's say you
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finally get into this room that we keep hearing about and you're in the you're
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in the room with this mogul, producer, agent, manager. What do
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you do in a pitch meeting? What are some pieces of some tips so
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you can give a writer to be in a pitch meeting. First of all,
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do your homework, so another word, whoever you're meeting, find out
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a little bit more about the Uh. You don't have to do a whole
27:03
bio or something on it, but you know, just see if there's something
27:06
you know, find out what they're what they've done in the past, what
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helped them to get where they are now. Uh, maybe maybe you know
27:15
a producer might have might have been a creative exec at an agency or you
27:22
know, at a at a studio, or maybe someone might have even been
27:26
a reader or a story analyst somewhere. You usually can find out, you
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know, you go online and if you google that person's name, there's stuff
27:33
bound to come up about what their background is like not you know. Plus
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you know, you can go to you know what is it? Uh,
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some of the other websites. There's so many of them now, you know
27:44
out there, But go to some of those websites and check them out and
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see what was their background. You could have something in common like them.
27:52
You could have gone to the same college even though it was ten years apart
27:55
when they graduated, or it could be that that maybe they have up.
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Sometimes you find out things like, oh, yeah, and so and so
28:07
is in this club, you know so maybe it's a literary club or maybe
28:11
it's flying airplanes club or whatever. I mean. They have funny things that
28:15
people will put in there about who who people are and what do they do.
28:19
And if you know someone else in the industry who happens to know them
28:25
a little bit more or have worked with them before, it doesn't hurt that
28:29
you say, oh, so and so told me to say hi to you.
28:32
I told him it's kind of a meeting, and they told me to
28:33
say hi. That goes a long way too. You never know who's mind.
28:40
So if don't be afraid to just talk to your writers group or to
28:45
something you know, to whoever it is that you kind of hang out with,
28:47
and you say, you know, I've got a meeting with mister X,
28:49
and do you know anybody who knows them or whatever, and just to
28:53
find out if they know a little bit more about it. There's there's You
29:00
have to have a certain amount of sincerity about things that too. Authenticity right,
29:04
Yeah, I've been in meetings where people you could tell when they're trying
29:10
too hard and they're not being well that that they're not really kind of sincere
29:17
about what there's there's. I like to call it the stench of desperation.
29:22
It's like a it's a perfume that that that you wear. I warred for
29:26
many years where if anybody came on set that even had a remote amount of
29:30
power, you would just rush over to them and go. You'd be like
29:34
that grip on set with the screenplay in his back pocket, like, hey,
29:37
you know, when you get a chance, do you mind reading Like
29:40
it was just this kind of like energy sucking thing, like what can you
29:44
do for me? What can how can you help me? As opposed to
29:47
the opposite, which was why I've discovered later in my career is how can
29:51
I be of service to you? How can I help you? And that's
29:55
a much more authentic way to become to get to build a relationship. We'll
30:00
be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show,
30:10
and then you start working together, but you've got to start by offering
30:14
what you can do as opposed to sucking. Would you agree? I'll agree
30:18
very much agree. The other thing too, is you know, nowadays a
30:23
lot of colleges now do have film schools as part of their curriculum, and
30:30
that's that's one of the things that if you can, even if it's just
30:34
taking two or three classes and maybe not doing it exactly a major in it,
30:40
but if you I mean, if you can, that's great. But
30:42
if if you're you know, if your dad's paying for your college degree and
30:45
he wants you to get it in something like applied science or accounting, yeah
30:52
you could still you could still take a few screenwriting classes because if you graduated
30:59
from that particular school and had taken some of those things. It's very easy
31:04
to sort of find out a lot about the other people out there, whether
31:10
they're agents, exacts, producers, actors even and by the way, actors
31:18
nowadays, they're getting a lot smarter. They're forming their own production covid as
31:22
they should, they as they should, they should develop projects for themselves.
31:26
Yeah. Absolutely, this whole concept of and I think writers are going to
31:30
start getting to that place. I don't know if they're there yet, but
31:33
there are some that are doing it. Where you as the creator in today's
31:38
world the old studio system, where there's a gate and there's gatekeepers. If
31:45
you want to play at the very high end of again, tent Poles,
31:48
Marvel, Studio, Disney, these big giant corporations. You got to play
31:52
that game. But you can still build something outside where those people or those
32:00
outlets or many other outlets like Netflix, for God's sakes, or Hulu or
32:04
these other companies will come looking for you if you build something else. So
32:08
that's why actors and I think with writers can team up with production people and
32:13
team up with actors. That's when it starts getting really interesting as opposed to
32:16
always waiting for the gatekeeper to open the gate and give you, you know,
32:21
crumbs to get in there or something like that. It's because it's just
32:24
a lot of people trying to get in. And that's what my personal journey
32:30
was. I was trying to get into the party for the longest time.
32:32
I snuck in a couple of times, but the bouncers took me out later
32:36
on. So I understood always trying to get into that Hollywood party until I
32:39
finally decided to make my own party and started creating my own company and started
32:43
developing my own projects. And then magically they start knocking on my door and
32:50
asking me what I'm doing. And I was like, oh, so this
32:52
is how you do it. Okay, I get it. And then that's
32:54
the stench, that desperation stench started to go away. Well, I mean,
33:00
you're self reliant. You have to be like to invest in people who
33:05
are self reliant. And that's something they don't teach you in school. They
33:08
don't under That's like something that that one little comment is so powerful because you're
33:14
saying if you are self reliant, if you show that you can do it
33:17
on your own, if you show that you can build even at a small
33:21
level, a web series that you were able to produce, a web series
33:24
that has a good story, decent production value, which in today's world you
33:29
could absolutely get for tens of thousands of dollars because I've done it and I've
33:32
seen other filmmakers do it. That shows a lot as opposed to one of
33:37
the tenth How many times did you walk in a room during your career and
33:43
just saw piles of scripts from the floor to the ceiling, just sitting there
33:46
that either you had to read or someone else was reading, and you guys
33:50
were just going through it. And am I exaggerating or I've seen the pictures?
33:54
It's of course nowadays it's it's digital. You know, they get online,
33:59
which is just as bad because I actually think and I've actually talked a
34:05
lot of people who are in the industry, and they say they actually kind
34:08
of prefer having something you can put in your hand, yeah, instead of
34:14
reading it off the computer, which you know, after about two hours of
34:17
that, it kind of gets get it's weary on the eyes, and sometimes
34:22
you kind of forget everything. But you know, so much of of this
34:28
industry is I understand it. It's about who you know, But it's also
34:32
who you can be and who you are. You've got to have some I
34:37
mean I always tell this funny story, you know, the guy who was
34:42
who's on that television show which always which is escaping my mind right now.
34:47
But Randall, the one that the one that does the thing about about the
34:52
Asians. Oh uh fresh off the boat? Yeah, fresh off the boat
34:58
okay, because it's built off the air now for two seasons. But yeah,
35:00
what he did. You probably have heard this story too, is that
35:07
he was actually with a bunch of others friends and they wanted to kind of,
35:13
you know, get into the industry as writers, directors and actors in
35:16
office. So they started a web series. And you probably already know this
35:22
story, but a lot of people don't know, so please go ahead.
35:29
So Ikea is this Swedish company that has furniture and they've got all those different
35:37
floors of furniture and everything in it. And Randal and his friends wanted to
35:40
do a little short film, which is back in those days it would just
35:43
call a short film. Wasn't called a web series, but that's what it
35:45
was. It ended up being that they would have to shoot certain scenes here
35:50
there, but they would usually web series usually only have one or two scenes
35:53
in them anyway for each episode because it's hard to find scenery that you can
35:59
actually use, so if they didn't, they all were kind of like a
36:05
couple of them in fact, I think we're roommates, and so they were
36:07
sharing a single apartment and so they didn't have much to work with. So
36:12
they lived in Burbank, some of them lived in Burbank, and they went
36:15
over to the ikeast Or had started filming some things at the Ikeas store.
36:21
First it would be in the kitchen, then it would be in the living
36:22
room area, and then it would be in the area. And finally the
36:29
night manager actually the one who the one who was there from about three o'clock
36:32
in the afternoon until it closed at ten, kind of noticed all of this
36:37
thing and what's going on. They aren't just taking pictures of the furniture.
36:39
These guys are actually, you know, taking movies. So he asked them
36:44
what they were doing, and they explained, look, we're really sorry about
36:46
this. It's just that we you know, he explained, we're trying to
36:52
to do a series so we can show people. And he says, you're
36:54
gonna do a TV series? There and he goes, well, now we're
36:57
putting it on the internet. And the guy was actually kind of intriguing interested.
37:00
He just thought, oh, oh, okay, that's well. He
37:05
says, you know, well, actually, you know, it's the best
37:06
time to come there. Come after seven thirty because most people have gone home.
37:10
They either passed by here on the way to work or during lunch.
37:14
But after about seven thirty or so, it fins out, so come on
37:17
over. He actually let them do it. Now he he's no longer working
37:22
there, So don't you could still do this because I don't want people.
37:28
I don't want the IKEA manager calling me and saying, what the heck did
37:30
you? What did you? What did you tell people? There's there's there's
37:34
there's filmmakers everywhere trying to shoot now in Ikea. Well not right now anyway,
37:37
because of COVID, but when it does come back out, well,
37:42
Randall was unknown at the time, and Randall Randall Park the actor. Yeah
37:47
right, yeah, and he's gone on to be big. He's huge now.
37:52
And it's one of those stories. And it's the same thing. There's
37:57
that that Gal Jane who the the Hispanic Gale who in her first series she
38:07
started off doing three web series and one of the casting people was hooked on
38:15
web series and noticed her. And that's what he did, is he called
38:17
her in and she you know, she was She's very famous and got her
38:23
own She not only had her own television series, but she now then ended
38:28
up I think she's now producing a film. Yeah, you're talking about Gina
38:34
Rodriguez from Jane the Virgin. Funny enough, I actually funny enough. I
38:37
actually worked on I think her first feature as a I was I was the
38:44
post production guy, editor, glorist person on her first film, and she
38:49
was a supporting cast member and she was she stole the show. And I
38:52
was like, Wow, this girl's got something. And then, like you
38:54
know, a year or two later, she's like, oh, well she
38:57
got her own TV show. Now, okay, she's exploded. Okay,
39:00
that's how it works here in Hollywood. And yeah, oh she's an Emi
39:02
Rin. Yeah, okay, so this is this is how that works.
39:07
Okay, great, It's it's funny, you know, being here in LA.
39:14
They started scuper friends saying, you know what, we gotta do some
39:16
to show that we are serious about being in this industry. Yeah, and
39:22
it's so important. You're absolutely right. So important to just kind of go
39:24
out there and do it. And you know, like like the Ikea story,
39:29
sometimes you gotta not break the rules. But just you live in the
39:31
gray area. You live in the gray area bit and you gotta do what
39:36
you gotta do, and as long as you're not doing anything illegal, just
39:38
go for it and try to make it happen for yourself. But that says
39:42
a lot more to me as a producer as a filmmaker about somebody that they've
39:47
actually gone on produce something on their own that has some quality to it then
39:52
a thousand scripts. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
40:01
and now back to the show. You know that you know, in a
40:07
lot of times, I don't know if you agree with this or not,
40:08
but a lot of times it's the best stuff doesn't always get produced. It's
40:15
not always the cream rises to the top. And I'm sure you've read a
40:20
ton of scripts that've never been produced that were Oscar worthy or should have Emmy
40:24
worthy series that just didn't get produced for whatever politics. You know, money
40:30
falling apart, all that kind of stuff. It's a lot of times who
40:32
hustles the hardest and who who gets who proves it to the right people and
40:37
the politics involved. Is that a fair statement, it's it's not a good
40:42
statement, but it is a fairstate. You agree with you. It's not
40:45
a good statement, but it's a fair statement. But it's But you know
40:51
what, it's sort of like that, no matter what industry you're going,
40:53
sure have people that that know other people and they get up there right away.
40:58
And then you have people who who are struggling and even though they may
41:01
be very talented, they just haven't. They just haven't found their voice and
41:07
their community to be able to help move them ahead. And I think what's
41:13
great is now with the Internet or finding a lot more of these people.
41:19
I do know that that one of those things about the Internet is people are
41:24
very easy to talk to over online, much more so than if you'd meet
41:30
somebody in person. For some reason, maybe it's because they think that people
41:37
judge you, you know, by how you look or your first appearances or
41:42
something. But once you start talking to people online, you get a real
41:46
sense of someone's personality. And I just I have so many people of my
41:51
writers who have told me that they have met the most interesting people who are
41:55
now people They are working with on objects, whether it's a director or an
42:01
actor or whatever. They are actually starting to work together and move ahead on
42:07
projects because they found people that they can work with. And sometimes, you
42:14
know, back in the olden days, you just had to work with whoever
42:16
was shoved your way, whether that person was someone that had a good personality
42:22
or had a good sense of humor or whatever something. You know, you
42:24
just had to work with whoever they told you to work with. It's still
42:28
a little true today, but I find that I see groups of people,
42:32
especially behind the scenes, people that like to move together to another project.
42:39
Oh god, ya, I mean Clint Eastwood, Ron Howard, Steven Spielberg.
42:43
They've been working with the same team for decades. Because once you get
42:46
people you can work with, you want to stay with them because and all
42:51
those people started off together. And it's and the funny thing is too,
42:54
one thing that just people don't understand, especially when they're coming in the industry,
42:58
is it is difficult to find people you can work with, like really
43:01
connect with, really have a secondhand with. And when you find these people,
43:06
you don't want to let them go. You want to want to hold
43:08
onto them. And if you have the power to do so, especially like
43:13
those guys, you can bring them along and build out like I mean,
43:16
I know, I think Ron Howard won't do a movie without his first ad
43:20
Like he just waits until he's available, and then he does a movie with
43:22
him. He just won't do it without one without him. And same thing
43:25
for dps and art directors and production designers and all that kind of stuff.
43:30
It's it's something that screenwriters need to understand as well. If you can build
43:35
that group together, like you said earlier, if they get a job and
43:37
they need to fill another seat or two in that in that writer's room,
43:42
you're getting the first call. It's about that relationship much more so then,
43:45
or at least I know I can hang with this person. He's talented.
43:49
Talent is like the that's the that's the bare minimum. Like we understand your
43:53
talented. You have to be talented. Then there's a lot of talented people.
43:58
Now the next criteria is can I sit in a room with you for
44:00
twelve hours and not kill you. That's so much more valuable than having a
44:07
super talented person. I would rather have someone who's a little less talented and
44:13
I can actually work with than a super talented person who is impossible to work
44:16
with. No. I have a very dear friend who's a writer and he's
44:22
been a writer for a long time, and she's told me, she said,
44:27
you know you, she said she would she would rather rely on somebody
44:32
on her writings, on a writing staff, because they know so much more
44:37
about who she is and how she can react at any given time to any
44:43
different situation. I mean, sometimes you're you're asked, Okay, guess what,
44:46
We're not going to do that that script that you guys put together.
44:50
We're gonna instead you got to come up with a new one in the next
44:52
twenty four hours. I mean, when if you can work with a group
44:57
of people who are willing to step up to the plate and and you know,
45:01
get things done, that means so much more. It's it's it's those
45:07
kind of people that really, you know, make her feel that she's got
45:12
her worth and that she's got their back. You know, if you can
45:15
do that, it really helps. Now, what are some of the common
45:19
reasons scripts are rejected in Hollywood? I'm sure there's a thousand reasons, but
45:25
what are some of the common ones that you're just like, oh, cheez,
45:28
please, why It usually has to do with the characters more of I
45:36
mean, it's you know, story too, but uh, you can some
45:40
of the some stories are actually you know, sort of things that we have
45:45
seen before. But it's the characters that make it set it apart a little
45:50
bit. And I think that's what people. You know, Sometimes they say,
45:52
oh, I wrote this, I wrote this romantic comedy. And I'll
45:57
ask, well, what's it like and They'll say, oh, it's like,
46:00
you know, I don't know whatever. You know any Audrey hepburn one
46:04
or something like that. And then I'll look at it and I'll thought,
46:07
my god, it's almost like they're copying scene for scene, except that it's
46:09
not set in Rome. It's set in someplace else. You've got to be
46:14
still have that spark of creativity to set it apart from everything else that we
46:19
are reading. The average executive and the average agent probably reads oh, i'd
46:27
say twenty thirty scripts a week minimum, you know, if they fit,
46:32
if they finish all of it. Oh, generally, isn't it true?
46:36
It's like you got five you got five pages, five to ten pages,
46:38
thomps. You're lucky if you have an agent that actually will read ten or
46:43
twenty pages. Occasionally they you know, they will do that. It's just
46:49
it's it's really a hard business and there is just so much coming in the
46:52
doors. I've been in this industry for so long, and I just remember
46:57
I was talking to somebody who just retired as an agent and he basically said,
47:02
these that you know, on an average day at our agency, we
47:07
would probably get something like seventy scripts. Some of them were well and a
47:14
lot of them came from friends of friends, and some of them came from
47:15
from, you know, clients they already have, or from clients that are
47:21
looking for have that have had an agent but are looking for a new agent.
47:25
Yeah, that's that's how many every single week, and they all have
47:29
to read it and everything. It's just And the funny thing is that what
47:32
you just said, though they're all referred uh scripts, these aren't cold scripts
47:37
that just come in from you know, Joe Blow in the middle of the
47:40
streets somewhere. These are just these are these are actual things that they have
47:44
to read because they're either coming in they're referred for a friend of a friend
47:46
or something like that. Then add that the thousands a day from unknown screenwriters
47:52
who are trying to break in if they even could get through the door.
47:58
Yeah, it's you know, it's it's a difficult thing in this industry,
48:02
you know. But the relationships that if you especially if you've gone into film
48:07
school or at least taken three or four film classes, those relationships are what
48:15
I think really can help you because you guys have that common sense, you
48:19
have that common background and foundation, and you guys know each other, you
48:23
know whether you can work together or not. And if that's just so vitally
48:27
important. You know, there are a lot of agents out there who told
48:32
me, you know, when I asked, oh, how'd you get into
48:35
this get into this agency? Oh, well, so and so and I
48:39
used to used to go to USC together or something like that, and so
48:44
it was sort of like it was it was more like because there were somebody
48:46
they already knew, sure, and or they're doing favors for somebody. That's
48:52
the other thing. And it's not it's fine if you want to do favors.
48:57
I mean, I've actually had one writer that's that told me that she
49:00
was a nanny for an actor as kid for his kids, and he actually
49:08
gave it to his his agent to read. He did read part of it.
49:12
He read the first twenty five pages or so, and then he he
49:15
said, well, I don't have time to read the whole thing, but
49:17
I do think it's a good start. You know, I don't mind.
49:20
I'll just give it to my my agents. So he did, and that's
49:23
how I got in to have her script read. And they did like it
49:29
enough that they kept her on for a little while. But she now has
49:34
kids of her own and she's not in the industry. So what you're saying
49:37
is we should become nanny's. Is that's the way in is the nanny's?
49:40
Is that? Is that what I'm getting from that stories for her at least
49:45
that it worked for that. I mean, you know, she she actually
49:47
realized after after a while she was on staff on a television show for a
49:52
while, and we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
50:01
now back to the show. It was it was fine. But then she
50:06
met her husband and you know, he just said, you know, I
50:10
have the kind of job that I have to be on call because he's a
50:14
doctor. And so he said, you know, we're either going to have
50:16
to hire a nanny or you're gonna have to take care of the kids or
50:22
whatever, and she was fine. She was at that point felt comfortable enough
50:25
that okay, you know, but she has now started, now that her
50:30
kids are older, she's now thinking about getting back into the business of writing.
50:36
But then COVID hit, So I don't know that slows down things a
50:40
little bit. Now. I wanted to ask you because this is a myth
50:44
that has talked about so often. Is that and a lot of newbies screenwriters
50:49
think this, All I need is an agent, All I need is an
50:53
agent or a manager, and all my dreams are going to come true.
50:57
They're gonna put me out onto the street and I'm going to get million dollar
51:00
offers and things like that. Can you please debunk the whole all I need
51:05
is an agent thing? And when a writer actually needs an agent, can
51:09
you answer that for us? There are about entered twenty really good screenwriting competitions
51:19
where they actually have agents or studio execs or production executives who are the judges
51:30
of the finals. And sometimes I've seen that. Whoever, sometimes the person
51:35
who wins the competition doesn't end up with the agent. It's somebody who was
51:40
like maybe in third place, gets the agent. But there are at least
51:45
ten to twenty really really good screenwriting competitions out there that I think people should
51:52
think about. I think that's one way to kind of also get started it.
51:58
Really In fact, I would say, I know, the one that
52:01
I really like a lot is the final draft one that their final draft has
52:06
their competition, and of course you know most people are using final drafts,
52:10
so that that's a good thing. Because what I like is the people who
52:15
are the finalists, and they do it for television and they do it for
52:17
features, which is nice. They not only get to have a trip to
52:23
visit as an agency or to visit you introduce to some agents, they also
52:30
have an opportunity to meet a lot of people in the industry because they have
52:35
a big party where they're giving out awards and everything for the Final Draft awards.
52:39
And I was surprised. It's held on the Paramount Lot, and I've
52:44
gone a couple of times, and there are actually actors and production to people
52:49
producers from who work on the lot who go over there and there's a big
52:54
cocktail hour and they you can meet these people. I mean that to me
53:00
is you know, it's almost like if you get in and you're one of
53:05
the twenty people or so that that become you know, viable for all for
53:09
those awards. They actually you can meet all those people and they will,
53:15
they're very they'll talk to you. They're they're there at Paramountain and it's promoted
53:20
there where. Oh, here's so and so, you got to meet this
53:22
person. They have people who are actually moving around their their their creative execs
53:27
who are helping to get those writers at the competition to meet all of these
53:32
different people. And I have seen, I've heard about all these people getting
53:37
actual agents or actually getting their script to a production company for a TV show.
53:44
So things like that can happen. So the competitions are a good way
53:49
of getting started. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask
53:52
all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read? Oh god,
54:04
oh my absolute there's there's my absolute favorite screenplay ever where I read it
54:16
and I didn't want to change one word on it. Jog day Afternoon.
54:22
Yeah, it's amazing script. It's amazing script. Yeah. Uh, most
54:31
of them, I are. Unfortunately most of the dramas, it's okay,
54:36
it doesn't matter. Well, another one too, that that I absolutely love
54:40
is Network. Yeah, that's that's been an answer on The show Manytimes.
54:46
Yeah, now network, just it's it really, I think what it is,
54:52
it's because what that guy says, screaming, it's how we've we've all
54:59
of us have felt like, oh hate, I hate to tell you,
55:01
we all feel like that. Right now we're going through some stuff right now.
55:07
It's it's amazing, how how accurate that thing. It's even Today's let's
55:15
see. God, I have to say. There's also some musical comedies.
55:31
Sure, sure, go ahead. I love I love musicals too, so
55:37
I love Greece. Greece is fantastic, even though there are there's their teen
55:44
hit, their high school students who who are thirty five years old? Other
55:46
than that, other than the thirty five, I mean literally Stocker Channing is
55:53
I think thirty two in Greece. So it's it's pretty it's but it's a
56:00
it's an amazing film. It's an amazing film. Now, what advice would
56:04
you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today, Well, I
56:13
think it's important if you can to try and figure out who do I know
56:19
somebody from college or who's in the same neighborhood or something that that that you
56:27
live in are they writers? You know, where can you find another writer?
56:32
And if you can, you know, you could actually even go online.
56:36
There's a lot that's what's nice about the Internet. There are so many
56:39
now online writing groups. In fact, I'm going to be done, I
56:45
think in another week or two, I'm supposed to be doing a little Q
56:47
and A for this writing group. And it's just you know, if you
56:52
can get together with other writers, it gives you a sense of community.
56:59
And I think when you have a sense of community, you then realize you
57:01
are not alone. And back in the eighties and nineties a little bit in
57:07
the beginning of the two thousands, people tended not to want to do that
57:12
because they looked at each other as competitors instead of instead of as as people
57:19
that they can share things with. I think it's gotten a lot better,
57:23
of course, in the last ten fifteen years, and so I you know,
57:27
I would strongly suggest that if you can find a group, even if
57:31
it's an online one talk with people there. They oftentimes will have people that
57:37
are in the industry who you know, are willing to come and you know,
57:43
do a one hour talk on different aspects of writing. I think joining.
57:50
And the other thing too is I would also like to let people know
57:53
that it's not just for people who are writing screenplays if you have a novel,
58:00
because if you have noticed around Academy Award time, most of the movies,
58:06
especially for dramas, uh usually came from a book. Correct. So
58:13
if you you know, if you have a literary group, that's also something
58:17
you know that you might want to get into, especially if you know start
58:21
off with that. A lot of the lot of the famous writers, that's
58:25
what they did. They started off with a book and then they suddenly realize,
58:30
okay, wait a minute, here I can turn this and some of
58:32
the other books I have into movies. And there's a lot. I love
58:37
it nowadays because with the internet, they have more places now because everything is
58:42
streaming. Yeah. Absolutely, and now and where can people find you your
58:46
work and your book? Okay, here's my book, The Script Selling King.
58:54
You can go to MWP dot com dot com and that's my Blisher's website.
59:01
And I believe I think they're still doing it. They were giving a
59:06
twenty five percent discount if you bought their book through their website, So you
59:13
know you want want to check that out of let's see anybody looking for your
59:19
consulting services. Well, I do consulting. I also I also do some
59:30
workshops overseas, and I don't know how far your audience goes around the world.
59:39
Now with the COVID paying, of course, all of my everything in
59:43
this year is has been kind of capoop. But I already have the next
59:46
year lined up. I will be in Iskia, island of Italy, which
59:52
is off the coast of Naples. Very difficult, tough, tough job.
59:54
Tough job. It's a very tough job. We'll be right back after a
1:00:00
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I'll be teaching
1:00:08
at a Swedish film school of teaching at a school in Estonia, another one
1:00:15
in Cologne, and another one in Warsaw, and another one in Budapest.
1:00:21
But also I teach on Rocaberti for the Rokaberti Retreat Virtual. They have a
1:00:29
regular Rokaberti Retreat in France, but there's also a virtual one they have.
1:00:35
I will be They usually have it like once a month. I don't know
1:00:38
if they're doing it in August or not, but I'm going to be teaching
1:00:42
a segment of it in September, and if you just go to Rocaberti Retreat
1:00:47
dot com and click on Rocaberti Virtual, it's like a five hour mini retreat.
1:00:54
There's four mentors more in different areas. One might be somebody who's a
1:01:00
manager, somebody else might be a writer, someone else might be a production
1:01:06
person, and someone else might might specialize in books or something. I mean,
1:01:09
they have four different people who are the mentors, and it's a limited
1:01:15
I think it's a limited enrollment. I think there's maybe thirty people on a
1:01:21
online thing and there each of us mentors have to give a twenty minute lecture,
1:01:28
and then we also have to read a two page synopsis of a fair
1:01:37
number of the writers who who I will put I will put that all in
1:01:42
the show. I will put that all in the show notes. Kathy,
1:01:44
thank you so much for taking the time out for coming on the show and
1:01:47
dropping the knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. So I appreciate that so much.
1:01:52
Stay safe out there. I want to thank Kathy for coming on the
1:01:55
show and really giving us an inside view of what it takes to sell your
1:02:00
script in the Hollywood machine. And if you want to pick up her book,
1:02:06
The Script Selling Game, The Hollywood Insiders look at getting your script sold
1:02:09
and produced, and links to actually reach out to Kathy. Head over to
1:02:15
the show notes at any film muscle dot com forward slash seven to eleven.
1:02:17
If you have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com,
1:02:22
subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out
1:02:27
a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for listening. Guys.
1:02:29
As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe
1:02:32
out there, and I'll talk too soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie
1:02:36
Film Hustle podcast at Indie Film Hustle dot com. That's I N D I
1:02:40
E F I L M Hustli dot com.