Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Esther Goldstein, LCSW interviews Elisa Toha, LMSW - Helping Survivors Tell Their Stories

Transcript

Esther Goldstein, LCSW interviews Elisa Toha, LMSW - Helping Survivors Tell Their Stories · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
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Speaker 1: Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over to
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Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
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Speaker 1: all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
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Speaker 1: So sit back and enjoy.
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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, my name is Esther Goldstein.
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Speaker 3: I'm an anxiety therapist and trauma therapist the Long Island,
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Speaker 3: and I'm so excited to be on here. For those
0:28
Speaker 3: of you who have heard my past podcast episodes with
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Speaker 3: Guy Macpherson, I love the work that Guy has done
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Speaker 3: for the trauma community, for therapists, for bringing heart centered
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Speaker 3: conversations and humility to this world. So thank you guys
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Speaker 3: for inviting me as a guest host. I'm so excited
0:46
Speaker 3: to bring on Alyssa today. Alyssa, I'm not going to
0:49
Speaker 3: introduce yourself, introduce you. Tell us a little bit about
0:53
Speaker 3: who you are, some of your journey.
0:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yeah.
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Speaker 4: I'm a former journalist.
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Speaker 5: I worked as a breaking news producer for ABC and
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Speaker 5: CNN for over a decade, so I my job was,
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Speaker 5: you know, anytime a story broke, whether it was a kidnapping,
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Speaker 5: a shooting, a hurricane or tornado, I would jump on
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Speaker 5: a plane and go to wherever the story was and
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Speaker 5: in bed, sometimes for days or months at a time
1:19
Speaker 5: within these communities.
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Speaker 4: To try to get an interview.
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Speaker 5: And so, yeah, as you can imagine, it really gave
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Speaker 5: me a front row seat to a lot of large
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Speaker 5: scale trauma, and it made me want to do more
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Speaker 5: than just tell these stories. I wanted me to learn
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Speaker 5: more about how to heal from trauma, which is how
1:38
Speaker 5: our past crossed. You know, I'm in a group practice
1:41
Speaker 5: in New York City, but I was in your trauma
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Speaker 5: group consultation, which was incredible.
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Speaker 4: I've learned a lot from you.
1:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, so could you.
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Speaker 3: Tell us right now you are a trauma therapist, and
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Speaker 3: could you just tell us just for a minute, as
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Speaker 3: you tell me about being a journalist.
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Speaker 5: My specific job was finding interviews for Diansweer or Anderson Cooper,
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Speaker 5: you know, finding people for them to interview. So sometimes
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Speaker 5: you know, those interviews would happen right away. Other times
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Speaker 5: it would take months for people to you know, be
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Speaker 5: ready to share their story, especially with the more sensitive stories.
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Speaker 4: So you know, it was very competitive. We were trying
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Speaker 4: to get the.
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Speaker 5: First interview among the morning shows or among you know,
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Speaker 5: cable news.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, I'm curious if you can share before
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Speaker 3: we go into like what it means to be a
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Speaker 3: trauma therapist and how you've come to this journey, Because
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Speaker 3: there's professional journeys that propel us towards something or away
2:33
Speaker 3: from something, and then there's also our own personal sense of.
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Speaker 2: Meaning fulfillment or direction that we go towards.
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Speaker 3: I just do want to first say, like, yeah, Alyssa
2:42
Speaker 3: reached out to Drum one of our consultation groups. This group,
2:45
Speaker 3: I mean, right, like there are people around the world
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Speaker 3: who are just like incredible, like wow, like impact with them.
2:51
Speaker 3: But Alyssa, can you tell us, like what is it
2:54
Speaker 3: about the experience of being a journalist that what is
2:57
Speaker 3: it that you noticed about human beings creatures? Is about
3:01
Speaker 3: impact of trauma or big events that really impacts the psyche?
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Speaker 3: Like what did you notice that maybe the rest of
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Speaker 3: us who haven't been in their role noticed about humankind?
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Speaker 4: Yeah?
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Speaker 5: I mean, to be honest, I feel like the thing
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Speaker 5: I noticed most was just human resilience, right, Like, I
3:16
Speaker 5: think it was really really incredible to be able to
3:20
Speaker 5: watch how resilient people are, even right in the aftermath
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Speaker 5: of something like unimaginable, and I think journalism what that
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Speaker 5: taught me is just how powerful the relationship is. Like
3:33
Speaker 5: you know we learn in grad school, right, the most
3:35
Speaker 5: important thing is a therapeutic relationship, but like to have
3:38
Speaker 5: someone be there with you and hold space for you.
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Speaker 4: Like across from you, like just is so powerful.
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Speaker 5: And then like if you add the sort of idea
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Speaker 5: that we were their story was reaching millions of people,
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Speaker 5: like how you heal in community, right, and how like
3:52
Speaker 5: the idea of like all of these people around the
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Speaker 5: world hearing your story and like being able to reach
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Speaker 5: out to you and like, you know, reach towards you
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Speaker 5: in a time of tragedy. I felt like that was
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Speaker 5: just incredible. And then I think like then there was
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Speaker 5: the curiosity of Okay, so like what about that other
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Speaker 5: percent of.
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Speaker 4: People who don't heal or who aren't resilient? Right? Resilient?
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Speaker 5: I mean everyone is resilient, but like who still have
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Speaker 5: trouble like years later, you know, with something how to
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Speaker 5: be Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I think that's really my question because often there's breaking
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Speaker 3: stories and you'll hear people say like we're going to
4:23
Speaker 3: be strong. I love that you got to be the
4:25
Speaker 3: person for some of these people, because right, the whole
4:28
Speaker 3: concept of mirror neurons and cool regulation is like you're
4:32
Speaker 3: that voice, compassionate, You're not just a reporter who's wanting
4:35
Speaker 3: to like dig into their story.
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Speaker 2: You're basically saying, like, connect with me, and.
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Speaker 3: In this connection we will create, we will support you,
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Speaker 3: and then obviously in sharing with the world. But yeah,
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Speaker 3: there's always the questions after, Like when I look at
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Speaker 3: the world right now or even past events, I often
4:49
Speaker 3: look at like people who are in this spotlight and
4:53
Speaker 3: we all have and maybe we could talk about this
4:55
Speaker 3: in a minute, but like we have different parts of ourselves,
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Speaker 3: and so although one part might be at an episode,
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Speaker 3: at an experience, there are other parts present that often
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Speaker 3: either they do heal or there's enough support or making
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Speaker 3: sense of the experience, or they might be isolated and
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Speaker 3: alone and though they were in the spotlight, suddenly there's silence,
5:16
Speaker 3: or there's confusion, or there's pain. So I'm always curious
5:19
Speaker 3: about like there's these breaking headlines and then I'm like,
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Speaker 3: who's coming home with them for dinner?
5:23
Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: Holding them cry? What is happening? So I you know,
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Speaker 3: I wonder about that.
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Speaker 2: I don't know if you're privy to that information or
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Speaker 2: if you're just more you were more.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean I always wondered, like what I mean,
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Speaker 5: and I was lucky I kept in touch with so
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Speaker 5: many people I booked for stories so many times. I
5:40
Speaker 5: didn't have that window into what was happening after. But
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Speaker 5: I mean I think like that. I mean, if I
5:46
Speaker 5: could go back to school and you're like a PhD,
5:47
Speaker 5: I would follow up with all of these people right
5:49
Speaker 5: who've done interviews, because I feel like, overall, I felt
5:52
Speaker 5: like most of them had a positive experience, especially with Anderson,
5:55
Speaker 5: like you know, sitting across from him and the way
5:57
Speaker 5: that we you know, did our stories. I felt very
6:00
Speaker 5: you know, confident about the work we did.
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Speaker 4: But yeah, I think it depends.
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Speaker 5: It depends, like you know, as you know in therapy, right,
6:07
Speaker 5: like every human is different.
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Speaker 3: So yeah, so I'm curious, like what happened there that
6:13
Speaker 3: you were like I'm not staying in journalism, Like what
6:16
Speaker 3: shifted for you that you decided I want to go
6:21
Speaker 3: to a different kind of row, a different kind of connection,
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Speaker 3: not just an interviewing in that kind of way.
6:26
Speaker 2: I'm curious if you want to share a.
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Speaker 3: Bit about like the professional elements that took you to pause.
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Speaker 2: Or any other aspects connected to them.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I was saying that, Like, if you've read
6:37
Speaker 5: Dan Harris's My more ten percent Happier, we actually worked
6:41
Speaker 5: at A Morning America at the same time, although we're
6:43
Speaker 5: passed across that much.
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Speaker 4: But his story, you know, like you really get a.
6:47
Speaker 5: Feel for sort of the fast paced, like high pressure,
6:50
Speaker 5: you know, vicarious trauma, and whereas like his journey sort
6:53
Speaker 5: of like culminates with like drug addiction and an on
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Speaker 5: are panic attack. Like my story wasn't so dramatic, but
6:59
Speaker 5: I had the industry was definitely taking a toll on me.
7:03
Speaker 5: You know, I would get these debilitating migraines that would
7:06
Speaker 5: take me out for days at a time. I had
7:08
Speaker 5: really bad back pain. It's probably drinking more than I
7:10
Speaker 5: should have at the time. And I think, like, you know,
7:13
Speaker 5: whereas Dan Harris found meditation and Buddhism, I think my
7:16
Speaker 5: like come to do this moment was finding ifs our
7:19
Speaker 5: internal family systems, and we you know, talk a lot
7:22
Speaker 5: in our consultation group about that, but just this idea
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Speaker 5: of like that we all have parts, right and that
7:27
Speaker 5: some of our parts that make us really good at
7:30
Speaker 5: our job. So for me, you know, probably that relentless
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Speaker 5: drive and like a little bit of like anxiety and
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Speaker 5: people pleasing, right, like you know, which I see a
7:38
Speaker 5: lot in a lot of my clients. You know, that
7:40
Speaker 5: takes a toll when those parts are the only ones
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Speaker 5: driving the bus so to speak, you know, like other
7:45
Speaker 5: parts of us. And like clearly like my body was
7:48
Speaker 5: telling a different story, right, Like it was taking me.
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Speaker 3: Out, yeah, emotionally and physically. So wait, so the book
7:57
Speaker 3: was called just to back up from it such wise
8:00
Speaker 3: and I want to kind of open each of them slowly.
8:02
Speaker 3: So what was the author's name again? And then how
8:05
Speaker 3: soon after he was in that role did he then
8:08
Speaker 3: write the book?
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Speaker 2: Do you want to tell?
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Speaker 4: Yeah?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well his name is Dan Harris. So he was
8:13
Speaker 5: he worked, you know, he was on air, which I wasn't.
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Speaker 5: So it was a very different world but ten percent happier. Yeah,
8:19
Speaker 5: and he wrote I think he was still working at ABC.
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Speaker 4: When he wrote the book.
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Speaker 5: But yeah, you know, talked about his journey and you know,
8:28
Speaker 5: which is again like you know, there were a lot
8:30
Speaker 5: of parallels and how he found Buddhism and meditation, and
8:34
Speaker 5: it taught him to like slow down and understand.
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Speaker 4: It's very similar, right, there's like a lot of overlaps.
8:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I love that you're saying, basically his
8:42
Speaker 3: book The ten Percent Happier, How basically he's sharing his
8:45
Speaker 3: story of how maybe externally and I guess and when
8:49
Speaker 3: as we're having this conversation, essentially like you're talking about
8:52
Speaker 3: your story. I know on a previous podcast with Guy McPherson,
8:55
Speaker 3: I shared about building external components of growth or success,
9:00
Speaker 3: but then also wanting to feel like I'm coming.
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Speaker 2: Home to my body because sometimes and.
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Speaker 3: We'll talk about parts work in a minute, Sometimes we
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Speaker 3: build external like we could build a castle, but then
9:10
Speaker 3: it's also like can I live in the castle?
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Speaker 2: Can I slow down on the castle? Or am I
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Speaker 2: just so.
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Speaker 3: Good at building right that I forget and my body
9:17
Speaker 3: actually in mine don't even enjoy it? Right?
9:19
Speaker 2: And I think that's like the chapter two.
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Speaker 3: Sometimes we're looking at chapter one when we're in survival
9:24
Speaker 3: or when we're looking to build, which is not a
9:26
Speaker 3: bad thing, but very few people talk about chapter two.
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Speaker 3: It looks like and am I not look as sexy
9:32
Speaker 3: or as shiny or as sophisticated or as noisy, but
9:36
Speaker 3: it's actually important for longevity, of health and of growth
9:39
Speaker 3: and actually what success really means. Okay, so your thing
9:41
Speaker 3: he speaks about panic attacks and turning to addiction, and
9:46
Speaker 3: so could we talk. So you're saying like in your experience,
9:48
Speaker 3: even being in this journalism role was high pressuring. You
9:52
Speaker 3: were overworking, and we spoke about like the work hard,
9:56
Speaker 3: play hard, right, So and then and then it sounds
9:59
Speaker 3: like at some when you kind of found your own
10:01
Speaker 3: right you said, come to Jesus of like I want
10:04
Speaker 3: to slow down. You found the therapy world and specifically parts.
10:08
Speaker 3: So for anyone who does or doesn't know parts, could
10:10
Speaker 3: you talk? And I know, yeah, my consultations always talk
10:12
Speaker 3: about parts, and we always talk about this, like which
10:14
Speaker 3: modality so medic ifs cmdr right? And I always say
10:18
Speaker 3: it's usually a combination. But I think any good healing,
10:21
Speaker 3: really it is important for us to understand the concept
10:23
Speaker 3: of parts. So you want to give us just the
10:25
Speaker 3: basic of like how you understood what is parts? To
10:29
Speaker 3: anyone who's listening to talk about the overachieving, over successful
10:35
Speaker 3: drive part and how if we don't pause that then
10:37
Speaker 3: we end up just falling apart and how we could
10:40
Speaker 3: help ourselves as professionals but also our clients.
10:43
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean, I mean just even on the bait.
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Speaker 5: And there's many different types of parts work, you know,
10:47
Speaker 5: like IFS is just one of them. But yeah, IFS
10:50
Speaker 5: has this idea where we all you know, it's almost
10:52
Speaker 5: like we have an internal family inside of us, which
10:55
Speaker 5: like resonated so much for me, right, Like I think
10:58
Speaker 5: instead of you know, being an alcoholic or having anxiety, right,
11:03
Speaker 5: it's like there's a part of us that drinks and
11:06
Speaker 5: there's a purpose to that, right, And so I think,
11:08
Speaker 5: you know, they conceptualize managers, right, like parts that are
11:11
Speaker 5: sort of like never again, those are the parts that
11:14
Speaker 5: I talked about, right, like sort of that relentless, like
11:16
Speaker 5: dry you know, drive, anxiety, like hyper vigilance. You know,
11:21
Speaker 5: people pleasing these parts that are like you know, basically
11:24
Speaker 5: protecting younger wounds, which you know again like our parts
11:28
Speaker 5: that are frozen back in time and you know, holding
11:31
Speaker 5: a lot of pain and suffering and you know that
11:34
Speaker 5: can be from big t trauma, can be from small
11:36
Speaker 5: tea or a family of origin stuff.
11:39
Speaker 4: And then we have like our numbing like.
11:41
Speaker 5: Firefighters that when they start to feel the pain of
11:44
Speaker 5: the childhood. The younger parts, they will douse the flames, right,
11:47
Speaker 5: So that's like the drinking, the binge, eating right, like
11:50
Speaker 5: eating the things that are like reactive, and they come in.
11:55
Speaker 2: To stuff impulsive.
11:56
Speaker 3: It's almost like it's almost right. It's almost like impulsive,
11:59
Speaker 3: like safe sex or working like.
12:02
Speaker 2: A very strong degree.
12:04
Speaker 3: Usually, if people are developing panic attacks or are stuck
12:07
Speaker 3: in rage fits, or very disconnected or dissociated, or engaging
12:12
Speaker 3: in affairs or right things that are basically destructive to
12:15
Speaker 3: their life, and they're out of touch with their conscious choices,
12:19
Speaker 3: there's usually a level of like impulsivity, and this these
12:22
Speaker 3: parts are coming to save the person because it's like
12:25
Speaker 3: I'm bringing the bell.
12:25
Speaker 2: I'm saying I need help.
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Speaker 3: You're not listening, so I'm going to go even more
12:28
Speaker 3: intensely and I don't know any other way to cope.
12:31
Speaker 3: So we're not saying it's bad, it's just it's a
12:34
Speaker 3: very desperate attempt to try to help the system. And
12:38
Speaker 3: I love how you said, like the exiles are like childhood,
12:41
Speaker 3: are their wounds.
12:42
Speaker 2: I think they could even be like emotion.
12:44
Speaker 3: Sometimes we're so afraid of failure or we're so afraid
12:46
Speaker 3: of being alone achieve or like we said, like relentless.
12:51
Speaker 3: What was the term that you use, like relentless?
12:53
Speaker 5: Like I yeah, fuls need to just be better, to
12:58
Speaker 5: do more right like people, I mean, yeah, I see
13:01
Speaker 5: it with so many of my clients, right, and they're
13:03
Speaker 5: so good at their jobs.
13:05
Speaker 4: And I think, like.
13:06
Speaker 5: That's what esther, I don't know, Like I talk to
13:08
Speaker 5: my clients all the time about this. Is like in
13:10
Speaker 5: many ways, like trauma can be you can have sort
13:12
Speaker 5: of like these superpowers that come from experiencing trauma.
13:16
Speaker 4: Right.
13:16
Speaker 5: Like there's a lot of good right, Like, there's a
13:18
Speaker 5: lot of you know, people who are so successful because
13:21
Speaker 5: of things that have happened in their past. But I
13:23
Speaker 5: think the question I always ask my clients is like
13:26
Speaker 5: are you doing this because you want to do it?
13:28
Speaker 4: Or are you doing it because you need to? Right?
13:30
Speaker 5: So it's like, you know, and I think that's a
13:32
Speaker 5: good question that points to whether something needs to be healed.
13:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if we can hang out with that for
13:38
Speaker 3: just a moment, I think the question of are you
13:41
Speaker 3: doing this because you want to or are you doing
13:43
Speaker 3: this because you need to? That question alone gives the
13:47
Speaker 3: client opportunity to have access to a choice point. When
13:51
Speaker 3: we go through trauma, or we go through anxiety, or
13:53
Speaker 3: we're in an environment where we have to be over
13:56
Speaker 3: be overware or overwork or under perform or quiet ourselves,
14:02
Speaker 3: there's no choice points, right.
14:04
Speaker 2: Trauma collapses, time gives us this pressure of just go.
14:08
Speaker 3: And when you're talking about right this like hyper drive,
14:11
Speaker 3: it's almost like the person doesn't hasn't even taken.
14:14
Speaker 2: The time to have the ability or to be conscious of.
14:17
Speaker 3: Like there's actually a choice point here, and you're essentially
14:21
Speaker 3: splowing things down and saying do you have to or
14:24
Speaker 3: do you write?
14:25
Speaker 2: Or do you want to?
14:26
Speaker 3: And I think there alone is like the magic or
14:30
Speaker 3: the power of or really healing happens. Like we have
14:33
Speaker 3: someone in our consultation group who actually lives in.
14:38
Speaker 2: A different country, and she's treating a client who is
14:43
Speaker 2: an athlete. Right, we're talking about like aths.
14:45
Speaker 4: That's such a good point, right, And.
14:47
Speaker 3: So there's someone who and then there's a few people
14:50
Speaker 3: who I've like consulted with and on where some people
14:53
Speaker 3: could be like Michael Phelps, right, like a swimmer who
14:56
Speaker 3: basically is really hitting these incredible milestones. There are some
15:01
Speaker 3: people who have been in these huge positions up creativity, leadership, musicians,
15:06
Speaker 3: people who have built a lot of success, swimming the
15:09
Speaker 3: English Channel's creating so many different books, and often what
15:13
Speaker 3: we look at is people land up in our offices
15:16
Speaker 3: not because they're doing okay, but there's a level of distress.
15:19
Speaker 3: So when you see that intensity, right, that's kind of
15:22
Speaker 3: like taking that fight or flight energy, that rush, and
15:25
Speaker 3: they're channeling into something incredible. Right by the way, I
15:29
Speaker 3: don't mean that Michael Phelps has a trauma history.
15:31
Speaker 2: I'm actually swimmer, but there's an incredible energy.
15:34
Speaker 3: And we also know people who have taken their intense
15:36
Speaker 3: energy to be able to create, to be able to
15:39
Speaker 3: micro to manage so much right, so many things. But
15:42
Speaker 3: then what we often see is clients come in because
15:44
Speaker 3: they feel like they have to.
15:46
Speaker 2: Yes, when you have to, you feel.
15:47
Speaker 3: Like kind of what you said about driving the bus,
15:49
Speaker 3: feels like there was a part that's like shoving all
15:51
Speaker 3: the responsible drivers on the side, taking over, pressing on
15:54
Speaker 3: the gas at all, and it's like go, and then
15:56
Speaker 3: you're like wait, you're running things over and it's like
15:59
Speaker 3: stuff and stuff. I can't stop, I can't stop, and
16:01
Speaker 3: it's not might even be hitting milestones and it's not
16:04
Speaker 3: even feeling good.
16:05
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, and just like an internal family, just like
16:08
Speaker 5: a real family. Sorry, just like a real family when
16:11
Speaker 5: there is one sort of member of the family like
16:13
Speaker 5: driving the bus and like taking over, right, like there
16:16
Speaker 5: and does there's no space for the other members of
16:18
Speaker 5: the family, right, that will have like an impact with children, right,
16:21
Speaker 5: it will come out and their behaviors. Right, And I
16:23
Speaker 5: feel like internally we're the same way, right, it comes out.
16:26
Speaker 5: It's sort of like our clients come to us when
16:28
Speaker 5: the cracks start showing, right, like.
16:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So it's almost like when there's so I think,
16:36
Speaker 3: like the when you speak about this like hyper drive,
16:40
Speaker 3: to me, that's more like a manager, like the parts
16:42
Speaker 3: that are trying to manage the system, people who are
16:44
Speaker 3: very perfectionistic, people who are like there's healthy parts of
16:47
Speaker 3: trying to manage life, right, and then there is parts
16:51
Speaker 3: of here, Yeah, you're pretty extreme, right, compulsive. So I
16:54
Speaker 3: guess I'm wondering, like for you, what was it and
16:58
Speaker 3: being a journalist me, you think not just like pause,
17:03
Speaker 3: my body is like overworking. I'm curious what about I
17:06
Speaker 3: know you said we did a program at Akerman. I
17:08
Speaker 3: mean just curious what brought.
17:09
Speaker 2: You to Yeah, in their family system.
17:13
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean actually was incredible because my boss
17:16
Speaker 5: is at CNN let me go back to grad school
17:18
Speaker 5: while I was working, So so I started studying trauma
17:21
Speaker 5: like while I was, you know, simultaneously working on all
17:24
Speaker 5: of these stories.
17:26
Speaker 4: But yeah, no, I did.
17:27
Speaker 5: I studied family therapy at the Akerman Institute, which I think,
17:30
Speaker 5: I said, like, almost makes me like a better IFS
17:34
Speaker 5: therapist because I think, like many times you are working
17:36
Speaker 5: with these parts that are almost like members of a family,
17:39
Speaker 5: where like you have to sit them down on the
17:41
Speaker 5: couch and you're listen. When you finally listen to their stories,
17:45
Speaker 5: you're realizing, like these parts you think are really different, right,
17:48
Speaker 5: the part that drinks and then the part that like
17:50
Speaker 5: criticizes you are actually doing you know, both of them
17:54
Speaker 5: are doing what they do to keep you safe, to
17:56
Speaker 5: protect you, right, or like the younger version of you safe.
18:00
Speaker 5: And I think like when our clients have those like
18:02
Speaker 5: realizations or those moments, there's a lot more self compassion.
18:06
Speaker 5: And I think again like goes back to like such
18:08
Speaker 5: a key part of healing, right, is this ability to
18:10
Speaker 5: have compassion for yourself and hold space for yourself and
18:14
Speaker 5: your intern. Right, So I think that beautiful combination, which
18:17
Speaker 5: is like holding space for someone else and for your
18:19
Speaker 5: client that I learned sort of like early on in
18:21
Speaker 5: my journalism career, and then this like taking it one
18:25
Speaker 5: step forward of like helping your client learn how to
18:27
Speaker 5: hold space and compassion within themselves. And I think that's
18:31
Speaker 5: like the real right, Like I don't know, I'm sure
18:33
Speaker 5: you agree, but right.
18:34
Speaker 3: Like that that yeah, it's almost like you're saying, like
18:37
Speaker 3: learning about a family system, of real family system.
18:40
Speaker 2: It's like if one there's always a dynamics. Right.
18:42
Speaker 3: I think I just did this this like masterclass on
18:45
Speaker 3: looking shame, and John Ratchaw actually talks about he was
18:50
Speaker 3: He talks about the hero child, the attic child, the
18:53
Speaker 3: silent child. So we all kind of take on roles
18:56
Speaker 3: and family dynamics, and he talks about like a dysfunctional thing.
19:00
Speaker 2: Families.
19:00
Speaker 3: There's different roles people take on. But I love what
19:03
Speaker 3: you're saying is that essentially knowing actually real family therapy
19:06
Speaker 3: and essentially when when we're suffering or when our clients
19:10
Speaker 3: are suffering, there's something that's array or a ray inside
19:14
Speaker 3: of ourselves. That's basically saying I'm not okay instead of
19:17
Speaker 3: saying okay, so just stop it or change it. It's
19:20
Speaker 3: like I love what you're saying that you're almost like
19:22
Speaker 3: coming in as like the journalists, but you're first like
19:25
Speaker 3: connecting with them, and you're saying, okay, wait, hold on,
19:27
Speaker 3: who's making the noise the most noise? Right, there's one
19:30
Speaker 3: part it's almost like you're sitting like with a whole.
19:32
Speaker 3: It's almost like the clients come in, I'm like, where's
19:34
Speaker 3: the you know you're here with blink and and I'm like, oh, interesting,
19:39
Speaker 3: it feels like blah blah blahs here, or it feels
19:41
Speaker 3: like there's some angry part of you that you tell
19:43
Speaker 3: me you want to get you want to heal, but
19:44
Speaker 3: you have so much skepticism all over here.
19:47
Speaker 2: So I want to get to.
19:48
Speaker 3: Work with a skeptic or ling the anger in here.
19:52
Speaker 3: So I love how you're saying like one is because
19:54
Speaker 3: people often say, like, what's the quick work to working
19:57
Speaker 3: with these behaviors?
19:59
Speaker 2: And and I love that what you're saying.
20:01
Speaker 3: The first thing always like people say, okay, do in
20:03
Speaker 3: our child healing work, just say oh you're safe, everything's
20:06
Speaker 3: fine and awful when people do that, right, like the
20:09
Speaker 3: client does not feel relief because you're skipping over some
20:13
Speaker 3: important piece because it's like, let's first connect. Like if
20:17
Speaker 3: we see a part that's like overworking, it's usually so
20:21
Speaker 3: frightened or feels this pressure to keep doing what it's doing.
20:25
Speaker 3: And a lot of times if it had another option
20:28
Speaker 3: or if it knew that the system or the person
20:30
Speaker 3: would be okay, if it actually like didn't have to
20:33
Speaker 3: work so hard, it would let go, or if it
20:35
Speaker 3: had different kind of support.
20:37
Speaker 2: So I love that you're saying, like number one, get
20:40
Speaker 2: to know this part and connect with it.
20:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, like just.
20:43
Speaker 3: And then be compassionate to well instead of being like
20:45
Speaker 3: while you're drinking again, it's like, wow, so you're going
20:48
Speaker 3: back for that fifth bear tonight? Yeah, I wonder what's
20:52
Speaker 3: going on for you or I'm wondering what, like what's
20:54
Speaker 3: so unbearable about being in this moment without going for
20:58
Speaker 3: that bear or going yeah.
20:59
Speaker 5: And even like the huge shift of talking to the
21:02
Speaker 5: again sounds so woo right. And if you had asked
21:05
Speaker 5: me like ten, yeah, twenty years ago whatever, when I
21:08
Speaker 5: was a journalist, I'd be like, you've got to be kidding,
21:11
Speaker 5: you know, like anytime yoga like Medita, I'd be like, oh,
21:14
Speaker 5: like I could not slow down. So I'm not saying
21:17
Speaker 5: it's like an easy jump from there to there, but yeah,
21:19
Speaker 5: like getting curious about the part itself, right, like asking it.
21:23
Speaker 4: Yeah, like what you know when.
21:24
Speaker 5: You reach for that Like what are you afraid it
21:26
Speaker 5: would happen if you didn't reach for that drink?
21:29
Speaker 1: Right?
21:29
Speaker 5: And it's like sort of amazing, Like you know, all
21:31
Speaker 5: of our clients have those answers. I mean not to
21:34
Speaker 5: say there aren't parts that are like going to come
21:35
Speaker 5: in and block or numb them out or dissociate them, right.
21:38
Speaker 5: I Mean it's not always eat smooth seiling and parts
21:41
Speaker 5: work either, but yeah, I think like that bringing that
21:44
Speaker 5: curiosity right.
21:47
Speaker 3: So almost like the journalist part of you is almost
21:49
Speaker 3: like there where you're connecting with them and then you're
21:51
Speaker 3: almost modeling like how they could connect with our own
21:54
Speaker 3: inner world because essentially we want our clients to copy
21:57
Speaker 3: and paste.
21:58
Speaker 2: Right it's happening in the therapy room.
21:59
Speaker 3: Is really like I want you to be able to
22:01
Speaker 3: do this in your own inner life and with other people.
22:05
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and experientially, I think like you're doing it
22:08
Speaker 5: in the therapy room, they're they're actually getting the opportunity
22:11
Speaker 5: to really listen, yeah, to like their own parts.
22:15
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm not going to jump into the like
22:18
Speaker 2: the blocking and associative parts, but I love that you
22:21
Speaker 2: said that because if there's anyone listening who's a therapist
22:24
Speaker 2: or a client, and if you've tried to do parts,
22:26
Speaker 2: or if you're trying to do fealing and it's a
22:28
Speaker 2: little getting a little hairy or tricky, there's nothing wrong
22:32
Speaker 2: with that.
22:32
Speaker 3: It just means that your system is very protective or
22:35
Speaker 3: maybe defended, and then a good and skilled therapist is
22:39
Speaker 3: going to work with the parts of you that block
22:42
Speaker 3: or dissociate or are willing yet to. Like what you
22:46
Speaker 3: said about parts are like do direct access and you
22:48
Speaker 3: have people might eye them laugh about this, but essentially,
22:53
Speaker 3: like what we found is it's one of the least
22:55
Speaker 3: pathologizing ways of just understanding that every part has a
23:00
Speaker 3: function or every behavior, every thought, every emotion. Sometimes it's
23:03
Speaker 3: an emotion that somebody's overtaken by and they want to
23:06
Speaker 3: avoid it, an emotion of shame, an emotion of fear,
23:09
Speaker 3: and emotion of you know, like anger.
23:13
Speaker 2: So people might avoid that in.
23:14
Speaker 3: Many different kinds of ways of coping I'm curious Alyssa, Like,
23:19
Speaker 3: if you just mentioned like looking back ten years ago yourself,
23:22
Speaker 3: you would kind of laugh.
23:23
Speaker 2: And say you're so rude.
23:25
Speaker 3: But the other day you shared with me how you're
23:27
Speaker 3: like the most fulfilled you.
23:28
Speaker 2: Are in your life right now.
23:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's okay, I'm like bringing that up. No, Yeah,
23:34
Speaker 3: And I'm loving that we're having this conversation right now.
23:36
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering for anyone listening who maybe is a
23:39
Speaker 3: younger therapist who's on a journey where maybe they are
23:43
Speaker 3: just noticing that they are coming into this field to
23:46
Speaker 3: either do their own healing work or they're wondering like
23:51
Speaker 3: how to be able to create space for their own
23:53
Speaker 3: self and also be a good therapist. Like what do
23:56
Speaker 3: you think allowed you from your story of being a
23:59
Speaker 3: journalist to doing some of the speaker work. What it
24:02
Speaker 3: allowed you to really feel that whole feeling in your body,
24:06
Speaker 3: feel that feeling inside.
24:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean like working with my own parts.
24:10
Speaker 5: I think finding it's like so beautiful when you start
24:14
Speaker 5: to make space for all of your parts and there's
24:17
Speaker 5: this sort of integration that happens. And I think my
24:21
Speaker 5: biggest thing, especially starting as a journalist, was I took
24:24
Speaker 5: all of my really efficient journalist parts and I just
24:26
Speaker 5: applied them to therapy. So, I mean, you love learning,
24:30
Speaker 5: but I would take every single training, you know, I
24:32
Speaker 5: would get every single consultation I know, and it became
24:36
Speaker 5: like I was just taking those old parts that were
24:38
Speaker 5: protecting some wounds, you know, like and I would just
24:42
Speaker 5: you know, let them drive the bus. And I think
24:44
Speaker 5: it wasn't until I finally was like, Okay, let's slow
24:47
Speaker 5: down with these parts that want to be the best
24:49
Speaker 5: therapist or want to learn you know, like the best training,
24:52
Speaker 5: you know, like or be so efficient and really help
24:54
Speaker 5: my clients heal. I think like when I worked with
24:57
Speaker 5: those parts and they stepped out of the way, that's
25:00
Speaker 5: when like the real miraculous hilling happens, right, is when
25:03
Speaker 5: you're letting your own client system guide and with like
25:07
Speaker 5: sort of the soft touch you bring in skills, right,
25:10
Speaker 5: but they also know when to get out of your
25:13
Speaker 5: parts know when to get out of the way, and
25:14
Speaker 5: they have trust that you know that you.
25:16
Speaker 4: Know what you're doing in the room. Does that make sense?
25:19
Speaker 2: Love you're saying.
25:20
Speaker 3: I love, love, love what you're saying. It's almost like
25:26
Speaker 3: I remember in one of my IFS, like I think
25:28
Speaker 3: it was the second level IFS training, and they were
25:31
Speaker 3: talking to us about the difference between therapist blood sessions
25:36
Speaker 3: with our clients or self led sessions and self is
25:40
Speaker 3: like the core of who we are. And then there's
25:41
Speaker 3: like parts of therapists who are like I need to
25:44
Speaker 3: be the healer, I need to be the hero, I
25:45
Speaker 3: need to be the judge, right, I.
25:47
Speaker 2: Need to be the caretaker.
25:48
Speaker 3: And as you're talking right now, I'm just thinking like
25:53
Speaker 3: essentially when.
25:54
Speaker 2: We as humans, when we as moms, when we as.
25:58
Speaker 3: Lovers, when we ASPI because who we are are like
26:02
Speaker 3: who we are with the way we do life, is
26:04
Speaker 3: the way we do love, it's the way we do relationships,
26:06
Speaker 3: it's everything. It's like the core of who we are
26:09
Speaker 3: comes across. That's why I always say, like your values,
26:11
Speaker 3: who you are, You're in it, like right, So I
26:13
Speaker 3: love how you're saying, like essentially doing your own inner
26:16
Speaker 3: work instead of taking like the part of you that
26:18
Speaker 3: was the seeker and the learner and the needing to
26:20
Speaker 3: be the best for whatever function that served or serves.
26:23
Speaker 3: It's almost like as you like exhaled and settled into
26:27
Speaker 3: self energy.
26:28
Speaker 5: Yes, that's exactly I can put it so much better
26:30
Speaker 5: than I could.
26:31
Speaker 3: I think you're actually saying it perfectly, and I'm actually
26:35
Speaker 3: linking all of this up, and and I think that,
26:39
Speaker 3: like I don't know, just anyone listening, I don't know
26:43
Speaker 3: if there's ever like a perfect route to get there,
26:45
Speaker 3: because as you're saying this, like I remember, the part
26:48
Speaker 3: of me that was like going to get my phdo
26:51
Speaker 3: was abroad. I went to Hebrew University and one of
26:55
Speaker 3: the professors you have to get a professor who takes
26:56
Speaker 3: you on as a mentor and then takes you on
26:59
Speaker 3: under this piecettlement and they kept I kept interviewing different
27:02
Speaker 3: mentors or they interviewed me and they said, what do
27:05
Speaker 3: you want to work with And I said trauma. So
27:06
Speaker 3: they said, don't get your PhD. I'm like, I want
27:08
Speaker 3: to be a doctor, like for your work or for
27:11
Speaker 3: your ego.
27:12
Speaker 4: Oh that's so funny.
27:14
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, because they were like, actually, like you should
27:17
Speaker 3: do POSTCRAD training.
27:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, you good trauma work.
27:22
Speaker 3: Because I was working with a lot of people struggling
27:24
Speaker 3: with addiction, and I realized there's behavioral management kind of
27:28
Speaker 3: what we're mentioning, which, of course you want to help
27:29
Speaker 3: people become sober, but you know how like.
27:34
Speaker 2: What's his name?
27:34
Speaker 3: He always talks about how the opposite, like the opposite
27:37
Speaker 3: of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection, right.
27:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he does.
27:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it was a matter of like looking at
27:44
Speaker 3: the parts of them that never felt connection. So anyway,
27:47
Speaker 3: so then I was like, hey, I'm not going to
27:48
Speaker 3: do that. I did a postcrad in the end at
27:50
Speaker 3: Hebrew You but as you're saying this, like I have
27:54
Speaker 3: also had parts and I still have that part that
27:58
Speaker 3: sometimes gets woken up and is like ah, and then
28:01
Speaker 3: I'm like right where it's like I want to grab
28:04
Speaker 3: this and I want to grab this. Yeah, like more
28:06
Speaker 3: presence in session or less presence in sessions. I want
28:08
Speaker 3: to say this to anyone, like it's not that you're
28:11
Speaker 3: meant to listen to Alyssa and be like I want
28:13
Speaker 3: to be like Alyssa or how can I be perfectly
28:16
Speaker 3: self led therapist.
28:18
Speaker 4: And I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I think even just like.
28:23
Speaker 2: Knowing like it's okay.
28:24
Speaker 3: The therapists who are wonderful humans and therapists are the
28:27
Speaker 3: ones who, like you're sharing, you've taken the time to reflect.
28:31
Speaker 3: I share like like it's okay to have all these
28:34
Speaker 3: different parts. What we do want to do is be like, okay,
28:36
Speaker 3: now how do I Yes, we do need skills, we
28:38
Speaker 3: do need to be able to provide offer.
28:40
Speaker 2: I'm healing, but.
28:42
Speaker 3: If we're kind of divorcing ourselves, or if we're not
28:44
Speaker 3: present or integrated, like you said, in our own minds
28:47
Speaker 3: and bodies, we're not going to be as impactful of
28:50
Speaker 3: a healing vessel. We're not really going to model that
28:53
Speaker 3: homeness or that integration that our clients are really needing.
28:57
Speaker 3: And I just want to bring this back is when
28:59
Speaker 3: I asked you what allows you to feel so fulfilled
29:02
Speaker 3: right away? Bingo, you said, well, I feel like I'm
29:04
Speaker 3: working with my own heart, like a sense of integration, which.
29:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, I like, will be honest, I
29:12
Speaker 5: think that there is a big element like in journalism,
29:15
Speaker 5: there was part of me that felt like unfulfilled, like
29:18
Speaker 5: I wanted I wanted more meaning in my life, you know,
29:20
Speaker 5: and like you know there which like looking back, I
29:23
Speaker 5: do think like, wow, you know you still had you
29:25
Speaker 5: were doing like these big things, reaching big audiences, but
29:28
Speaker 5: there was like still avoid right and I think now
29:31
Speaker 5: like being able to work with people every day and
29:34
Speaker 5: have that connection and truly feel like I'm on this
29:37
Speaker 5: like collaborative journey to helping them heal. Like there's no
29:39
Speaker 5: better feeling, like at the end of the day, you know,
29:41
Speaker 5: to feel like you're making a difference and you're like
29:44
Speaker 5: connecting in a really genuine, you know, true honest way.
29:49
Speaker 5: I mean that sounds cheesy, but like I think that's
29:51
Speaker 5: like why I love my job.
29:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it's cheesy.
29:54
Speaker 3: I think like some of us, like we all have
29:56
Speaker 3: different needs, and I love that you're speaking.
29:57
Speaker 2: To the fact like one of the people how much.
30:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, she said to me, I'm loving this trauma training
30:03
Speaker 3: or I'm loving to learn about this, but to be honest,
30:06
Speaker 3: I feel like this is helping me heal and me
30:08
Speaker 3: understand my own somatic and symptoms better. And she's like, honestly,
30:12
Speaker 3: she was in like an educational role and in leadership.
30:14
Speaker 3: She's like, I want to create like trauma unformed systems
30:18
Speaker 3: to support like schools and to support like trauma occupational therapy.
30:23
Speaker 3: So we all have different needs and I love it
30:25
Speaker 3: for you. You're saying like you want, you appreciate you
30:29
Speaker 3: were hungering for more of this, like right, being a
30:31
Speaker 3: therapist is a very intimate experience of very big human emotions.
30:36
Speaker 3: You have a lot of capacity, Like this is why
30:37
Speaker 3: I think you're an excellent therapist. No, really, because I
30:40
Speaker 3: think it's like having the not just like oh, I
30:42
Speaker 3: want to help heal the world. It's like I'm holding
30:45
Speaker 3: myself accountable to a real sense of integration or noticing
30:48
Speaker 3: my own parts, or can tolerate and be with big
30:52
Speaker 3: realities or be curious about what's going on and then
30:56
Speaker 3: kind of provide some kind of healing relationship. Obviously, I mean,
30:59
Speaker 3: you have so many skills with the right kind of
31:01
Speaker 3: therapeutic interventions. But I think that's really a parallel process
31:06
Speaker 3: of like, hey, you're checked into like a very meaningful
31:08
Speaker 3: line of work for.
31:09
Speaker 4: You, Yeah, and figuring what that is for you.
31:12
Speaker 5: But I think that's such a great example with this
31:14
Speaker 5: other woman, Right, it looks different for everyone.
31:17
Speaker 4: And also like your balance of you know, like yeah,
31:19
Speaker 4: what you want your work day.
31:20
Speaker 5: You know, we were talking about like working in the office
31:22
Speaker 5: versus being remote. Right, those are all questions I think,
31:25
Speaker 5: you know, every therapist has to ask themselves.
31:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think just to wrap up, like I'm
31:30
Speaker 3: loving this conversation. I like to talk about parts work
31:33
Speaker 3: for hours. Mike, do you love what you just said
31:35
Speaker 3: about like needing to right? Obviously do a check in.
31:38
Speaker 3: I think the thing that I'm working away with most
31:40
Speaker 3: from this conversation is one, Oh.
31:43
Speaker 2: We didn't talk about this. This is what I do
31:44
Speaker 2: want to say. I guess as I wrap up, is
31:46
Speaker 2: like the concept of.
31:49
Speaker 3: What it means to be in this place of like
31:52
Speaker 3: noticing when we have parts of ourselves that might be
31:55
Speaker 3: overworking or overperforming, and how going through trauma or just revival.
32:00
Speaker 2: Or parts of ourselves that learn to function.
32:02
Speaker 3: Sometimes we feel like we need to versus we want
32:06
Speaker 3: to noticing that differentiation looking at just like when you
32:12
Speaker 3: mentioned like the ten percent happier times or maybe your
32:15
Speaker 3: own mind, your body as a therapist or with your
32:17
Speaker 3: clients are starting to speak and the power of listening
32:21
Speaker 3: in you know, so many times I read these articles around,
32:23
Speaker 3: like suicide prevention, like here the one eight hundred number,
32:26
Speaker 3: and suicide prevention is not a one hundred number. Suicide
32:29
Speaker 3: prevention is understand your anxiety and trauma, get the right
32:33
Speaker 3: medication for mental health conditions if you need, get the
32:35
Speaker 3: right support, have a food and shelter right, be able
32:39
Speaker 3: to make sense of the narrative of your life, or
32:41
Speaker 3: like you're saying, like figure out. For him, it was
32:43
Speaker 3: about Buddhism. For you, it was about slowing down and
32:46
Speaker 3: doing healing work. Like people can walk, can drive themselves
32:50
Speaker 3: into a grieve, or they can they can get themselves
32:52
Speaker 3: back up. And I guess I want that hope and
32:54
Speaker 3: inspiration here. Who's in a very dark spot suicide prevention
32:59
Speaker 3: or I don't just mean physical suicide, even emotional mental suicide.
33:03
Speaker 2: So many people are living detached.
33:05
Speaker 3: And healing is a matter of we're becoming alive, is
33:08
Speaker 3: a matter of really looking at those parts. Yeah, like
33:12
Speaker 3: the right supports, the right resources, These kinds of podcasts
33:15
Speaker 3: I think are very rich. So I get them his
33:17
Speaker 3: last piece and we talk about work hard, play hard.
33:20
Speaker 2: It could we just.
33:21
Speaker 3: Like open that nut for one second, like what's the
33:23
Speaker 3: work hard, play hard, and then we'll talk about like
33:26
Speaker 3: what is that How can we help let's say, a
33:28
Speaker 3: therapist or people who are working with clients like that.
33:31
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I mean I think because like I think
33:33
Speaker 5: it looks different for everyone, Like I think like there
33:37
Speaker 5: is a healthy way to work hard, play hard. But
33:40
Speaker 5: I think usually what we see, which I think we
33:42
Speaker 5: started with, it's like work hard, play hard means like
33:45
Speaker 5: I'm going to let these manager parts completely drive the
33:48
Speaker 5: bus for like five days of the week, and then
33:51
Speaker 5: on Friday, this other part, right that could be a firefighter,
33:54
Speaker 5: right or a numbing part is like okay, now it's
33:56
Speaker 5: our turn. And then that's where like the drug addiction
33:59
Speaker 5: or alcohol or sex or you know, TV or be
34:03
Speaker 5: you know right like where any of these other things
34:05
Speaker 5: come in. And it's I mean, you know, like sometimes
34:08
Speaker 5: it's completely dissociative, right where those parts take you over
34:12
Speaker 5: so much that you might not remember what you did
34:14
Speaker 5: over the weekend, right, or like there's a huge physical toll.
34:18
Speaker 5: So I don't know, I think like that there is
34:20
Speaker 5: a spectrum. I think like that's the most extreme when
34:23
Speaker 5: people come to us, right like, and then there's like
34:27
Speaker 5: I think there is a way to work hard, play
34:28
Speaker 5: hard where you're like noticing, Okay, like there's a part
34:31
Speaker 5: that just wants to go dancing with my friends, and
34:34
Speaker 5: I'm gonna let that part just like you know, I
34:36
Speaker 5: think like when you have an integrated system, you can
34:38
Speaker 5: listen to all of those parts and.
34:40
Speaker 4: Say yeah, like or you have to get up early, and.
34:43
Speaker 5: My mother part does not know it says no to
34:45
Speaker 5: that plan, right, Like you know, I think it's about
34:47
Speaker 5: listening to all of them and like coming to an
34:49
Speaker 5: agreement like a family.
34:50
Speaker 3: Essentially, it's the concept of integration, and when you have
34:53
Speaker 3: integrated or acknowledged your parts, you're likely going to choose
34:56
Speaker 3: for healthier, yes, active ways to work hard, play hard.
35:00
Speaker 3: Remember you and I were talking and I said, like
35:02
Speaker 3: you and the journalism world, and you in the world
35:04
Speaker 3: of seeing people in corporate America or New York. I
35:07
Speaker 3: know myself like having worked with some leaders in the
35:11
Speaker 3: corporate world and business professionals of big businesses, A lot
35:15
Speaker 3: of what I've seen is.
35:16
Speaker 2: That they are high functioning.
35:18
Speaker 3: Alcoholics are addicts, so incredibly high functioning.
35:21
Speaker 2: So the work hard is they are overworking.
35:23
Speaker 3: They're wanting to hit the milestone, then hit another milestone,
35:26
Speaker 3: then hit another milestone.
35:28
Speaker 2: Obviously we're talking.
35:29
Speaker 3: About very high functioning because people could have similar struggles
35:31
Speaker 3: not as accomplishing, So I'm not so they are accomplishing, right,
35:35
Speaker 3: But then on the weekends or with their family, they're
35:37
Speaker 3: completely numbing. And so essentially, if we look at that,
35:40
Speaker 3: how rich is their quality of life. Then sometimes they
35:43
Speaker 3: have either their wives or their children or themselves, they
35:46
Speaker 3: end up and say, this is not a life like
35:48
Speaker 3: I built, Like I just said, like a castle, I'm
35:51
Speaker 3: not living in it.
35:51
Speaker 2: And that's really starting to look at this.
35:54
Speaker 3: Survival part or this working part really was brilliant, built
35:58
Speaker 3: something that you needed.
35:58
Speaker 2: A lot of them came from not or keep from trauma.
36:00
Speaker 3: Yes, and at a certain point where people talk about
36:03
Speaker 3: like scaling or leveraging or maintaining the mind and body
36:07
Speaker 3: doesn't know how to then go like go into autopilot.
36:09
Speaker 2: It basically just keeps speeding like it's.
36:12
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, oh totally so like yeah, yeah.
36:16
Speaker 3: So it's funny because my son always says, like we
36:18
Speaker 3: have to go to the autobonn because I always say,
36:19
Speaker 3: I'm like that's where I could.
36:20
Speaker 2: Speak on and you're not going to take me, but
36:23
Speaker 2: that's our thing.
36:24
Speaker 3: But then there's also something about like slowing down on
36:26
Speaker 3: regular highways, you're not always on the autobah, and I
36:29
Speaker 3: think that's where it's like, I know, I shared at
36:32
Speaker 3: one point like there were years in my life where
36:35
Speaker 3: I was hitting stir milestones or hitting certain income brackets,
36:38
Speaker 3: but my quality of life went down. I think I
36:40
Speaker 3: mentioned there was one guy who was like I looked
36:42
Speaker 3: up to him. He owned, he opened therapy, practiced many
36:46
Speaker 3: therapy practices, he duplicated it, he franchised, and he said
36:49
Speaker 3: he hit ten million dollars and he was talking about
36:53
Speaker 3: ways to do it. And the next year he came
36:54
Speaker 3: out and he said, and why you should never be
36:56
Speaker 3: a millionaire in the ten millions like me? And he
36:59
Speaker 3: should have very personal story about how much alcohol we drink,
37:03
Speaker 3: many moments he missed with his wife, how many like
37:05
Speaker 3: Obviously it's not a matter of either being a millionaire
37:08
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, or not make money. But I love the
37:11
Speaker 3: honesty of the inner world. And I think coming back
37:14
Speaker 3: here he was doing healing work. I think this conversation
37:17
Speaker 3: essentially for anyone listening, for you yourself or for your clients,
37:20
Speaker 3: is we're not going to rob them of if they
37:23
Speaker 3: do have an overworking part right about.
37:25
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's a fir.
37:27
Speaker 5: I think, you know, we shouldn't name that because I
37:29
Speaker 5: think it's a fear of a lot of people coming
37:31
Speaker 5: into therapy. Is like if I don't want to, you know,
37:34
Speaker 5: And I think, like that's the important part. Dick short
37:36
Speaker 5: to say like there are no bad parts. We're not
37:38
Speaker 5: trying to get rid of those parts. I think that's
37:40
Speaker 5: really important to name because the people are like, well,
37:42
Speaker 5: I wouldn't be a good journalist, like how would I
37:44
Speaker 5: cover breaking news if I didn't? And that's so valid,
37:48
Speaker 5: and we don't want to get rid of those parts.
37:49
Speaker 4: But it's about integration, which is exactly what you.
37:52
Speaker 3: Said, right, and the way we interview for anyone listening,
37:54
Speaker 3: like if somebody does have a really difficult or exhausting schedule,
37:57
Speaker 3: I don't like open the window shades on a room
38:00
Speaker 3: that's been locked and say here, you have to change
38:02
Speaker 3: your life. I'll just slowly start inching towards it or
38:04
Speaker 3: use with like little slivers of awareness. So it's a
38:07
Speaker 3: little bit more conscious choice points, right, But I think.
38:10
Speaker 2: I just want to name like that.
38:12
Speaker 3: They're right, there's beautiful parts, but I think it comes
38:14
Speaker 3: back to as we're wrapping up, but it all comes
38:17
Speaker 3: back down to like integration, And I think for any
38:20
Speaker 3: client listening looking for a therapist or a therapist looking
38:23
Speaker 3: to deepen their own selves. Of course you can go
38:26
Speaker 3: to trainings. And I love Alyssa what you said, and
38:29
Speaker 3: I know I find this for myself, life is a teacher.
38:32
Speaker 2: Like I remembered at eighteen, I thought I had life
38:34
Speaker 2: will figure it out and.
38:35
Speaker 3: Then humble pies instead of I think life has a
38:41
Speaker 3: way of again and again and again teaching like.
38:43
Speaker 2: Integration or humility or.
38:45
Speaker 3: Wisdom or slowing down or learning this or here's what
38:48
Speaker 3: life is or this is what you hoped it would
38:50
Speaker 3: be and this is where it is. And can you
38:51
Speaker 3: find the beauty in that as you're you know, or
38:54
Speaker 3: could you be present with the pain?
38:55
Speaker 2: Right?
38:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the same valve of pleasure is the same
38:58
Speaker 3: valve of pain, and as we clear that out, there's
39:01
Speaker 3: more capacity to be.
39:02
Speaker 2: So are there.
39:03
Speaker 3: Any last thoughts or any takeaway that you would want
39:07
Speaker 3: to give anyone who's maybe on a journey, maybe somebody
39:10
Speaker 3: who's very overworking doing the rap rates of trainings and
39:13
Speaker 3: they're not sure what to do? Like, is there a
39:15
Speaker 3: question that you would ask them to ask themselves that
39:17
Speaker 3: might help them?
39:18
Speaker 1: Yeah?
39:19
Speaker 5: I mean I would ask them that same question do
39:20
Speaker 5: they want to do it? Or do they feel like
39:22
Speaker 5: they need to? And I think that's again like getting
39:26
Speaker 5: familiar right. Every person is so different and has such
39:29
Speaker 5: a different constellation of parts that I think like for them,
39:33
Speaker 5: like you said, it's like to do their own therapy
39:35
Speaker 5: or have that own space. And honestly, even if it
39:37
Speaker 5: is more of like a peer, like, I think that
39:39
Speaker 5: they're you know, because I want to be realistic that
39:42
Speaker 5: I think like it's a privilege to be able to
39:45
Speaker 5: afford to like spend a lot of money on healing,
39:48
Speaker 5: right on your own self healing. And I think there's
39:50
Speaker 5: a lot that you can do by yourself, Like I
39:52
Speaker 5: will say, I feel like a lot of reading, right
39:55
Speaker 5: or like sort of you know, stuff can happen where
39:58
Speaker 5: you can get like curious about your own parts in
40:00
Speaker 5: your own you know, like in your.
40:02
Speaker 4: Own space, and you can get creative about it, right.
40:05
Speaker 5: I like also want to give that as hope because
40:07
Speaker 5: I think, as like a young therapist, you're not making
40:10
Speaker 5: like money to be able to sit with an IFS
40:12
Speaker 5: level three trained person.
40:15
Speaker 3: But while you're saying that, yeah, I remember when I
40:17
Speaker 3: started going to therapy, I went through like a clinic abroad,
40:20
Speaker 3: and then after I went to a therapist that was
40:23
Speaker 3: like doing a postgrad training. I know there's like some
40:25
Speaker 3: postgrads where you'll get it very highly discounted, And I
40:29
Speaker 3: love what you're saying, like, honestly, guy knows about this podcast.
40:33
Speaker 3: A lot of the conversations were very validating and enriching
40:36
Speaker 3: to me to help me understand like my own mind
40:38
Speaker 3: and body like knowledge is with the connecting with friends
40:41
Speaker 3: or colleagues. Yeah, find someone who's able to support you
40:45
Speaker 3: in the healing work or start developing language around it.
40:48
Speaker 3: I love how you're talking about like what's reasonable, but
40:52
Speaker 3: I think like being able to give yourself that gift,
40:55
Speaker 3: Like people often ask me, like, what's your training? And
40:57
Speaker 3: I did get and I do have a lot of
40:58
Speaker 3: training right remote right, But like when I think about it,
41:03
Speaker 3: like I was just working on one of the chapters
41:06
Speaker 3: that I was editing in the book that I wrote
41:08
Speaker 3: with a new Harbinger, and I'm like, I like, to me,
41:11
Speaker 3: it's like my own reflections, my own confusion, my own fear,
41:14
Speaker 3: and then be present with that and moving through that
41:16
Speaker 3: is really like the own right, my own therapy journey,
41:19
Speaker 3: whatever that looks like for people. Your self reflection is
41:21
Speaker 3: really also one of the biggest investments. So if somebody
41:24
Speaker 3: is looking at do I do a post scridge training
41:26
Speaker 3: or do I do my own therapy, obviously I.
41:28
Speaker 2: Would love for you to do both.
41:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, but sometimes right, sometimes there's a time for more
41:34
Speaker 3: inner work, and sometimes it's more like a building, a
41:37
Speaker 3: building up the skills work. By the way, on parts work,
41:40
Speaker 3: like you said, there's actually a blog I wrote a
41:41
Speaker 3: long time ago. It's called what is parts or what
41:44
Speaker 3: is parts work? If anyone wants to google it, and
41:47
Speaker 3: I just explained, and there's like some images when I
41:49
Speaker 3: had like a lot of time I created and I
41:51
Speaker 3: just so if anyone wants to use that as a resource. Yeah,
41:54
Speaker 3: this was so wonderful. I'm so glad to be on here. Guy,
41:58
Speaker 3: keep doing your amazing work.
41:59
Speaker 2: And I thank you all for listening.
42:03
Speaker 4: Thank you Esther
42:07
Speaker 1: Hm