Latest / The Favorites Sports Betting Podcast / Wob on Finals + Ringer's David Hill on "Sharps"

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Wob on Finals + Ringer's David Hill on "Sharps" · The Favorites Sports Betting Podcast

0:08
Speaker 1: Welcome to The Favorites, the podcast from the Action Network.
0:15
Speaker 1: I am Chad Melnid along with my co host black
0:17
Speaker 1: Jack Fletcher. Boy, did we to pick a good day
0:21
Speaker 1: to record? Did uh stuff going on? Today? Black Jack
0:25
Speaker 1: has already held my hand and kissed it as if
0:31
Speaker 1: I was royalty. Um, yeah, I mean it's a high
0:36
Speaker 1: school girl and kind of price slabberds and chew juice
0:40
Speaker 1: on him. Well, you know, I've got a lip in
0:42
Speaker 1: and uh, a little bit of vodka and lemon saltzer.
0:46
Speaker 1: So it's a delightful. So listen Tuesday afternoon. That's great. Listen. Uh.
0:51
Speaker 1: In a few minutes, we're gonna bring on David Hill,
0:54
Speaker 1: who wrote probably the best, the best narrative sports betting
0:58
Speaker 1: story we've seen this year, without doubt. He wrote it
1:00
Speaker 1: for The Ringer. Uh, and it's got like all the
1:03
Speaker 1: cinematic epic landscape turns that a great story has about
1:10
Speaker 1: a modern day better about the world that's changing before him,
1:13
Speaker 1: about how he came to the world that he exists
1:15
Speaker 1: in today. It's brilliant. It's on the Ringer dot com.
1:19
Speaker 1: Everyone should go check it out. Just google David Hill,
1:21
Speaker 1: The Ringer and Spanky and you'll find it. But first
1:24
Speaker 1: up worldwide web, Mr ro Perez of the Action Network,
1:28
Speaker 1: it's going on, brother, anything out from last night? I
1:34
Speaker 1: don't know, christ I am. I am a tornado emotions.
1:41
Speaker 1: Let's let's talk about the big headline of the day,
1:43
Speaker 1: Rob Kevin Durant's on his way to New York right now?
1:46
Speaker 1: Does he leave here without signing a contract? I am
1:50
Speaker 1: my understanding from from people I spoke to her last
1:52
Speaker 1: night is this changes nothing in terms of Durants getting contracts.
1:57
Speaker 1: Some other teams and there are the specific team in
2:01
Speaker 1: New York who will go unnamed. That is a history
2:03
Speaker 1: of signing superstars with very drastic injuries to their knees
2:10
Speaker 1: without insurance policies a k. The New York Knicks. So
2:14
Speaker 1: nothing's gonna change. Like for Durant, he's gonna get if
2:17
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to get a max offer from the
2:19
Speaker 1: Warriors before he sures, and I was gonna get it
2:20
Speaker 1: now because he saw how bad Bob Buyers and the
2:23
Speaker 1: front office felt. So this is gonna change nothing for him.
2:26
Speaker 1: But there are some names out there that I've always
2:30
Speaker 1: kind of spoken to this. I've never seen anyone come
2:32
Speaker 1: back from a point Achilles A hundred percent, whether it's
2:36
Speaker 1: pretty gay, Kobe Bryant, Felton brand Westmkins Momento, per I
2:39
Speaker 1: could keep going here. Um, I would be surprised if
2:42
Speaker 1: he's ever as good as he was. And that's really
2:45
Speaker 1: tough to say. It sucks, but the truth rob that
2:48
Speaker 1: that number one I think makes him more likely to
2:50
Speaker 1: become a nick as you said, but um does is
2:53
Speaker 1: there any thought that maybe he doesn't opt out, that
2:56
Speaker 1: maybe he opts into the last year and rehabs this
2:58
Speaker 1: in Golden State. I thought about this, and I brought
3:02
Speaker 1: themself last night. And the only way, the only reason
3:06
Speaker 1: why he would opt in is to purely spite the warriors. Uh,
3:10
Speaker 1: if that's his his feeling in his five Because if
3:12
Speaker 1: you opt in, you occupy thirty one million dollars in
3:15
Speaker 1: cap space which they can't use to go out there
3:17
Speaker 1: and supplement Draymond in Clay because they're gonna need that
3:21
Speaker 1: that cap space. He would bring back or someone in
3:24
Speaker 1: there to help those guys, because he's got to get
3:26
Speaker 1: paid too. He's an im restrictive free agent. Now. If
3:29
Speaker 1: the option he takes up that space and then he
3:31
Speaker 1: just pieces out after his Achilles heels but since he's
3:34
Speaker 1: gonna be getting those max contracts from pretty much every
3:36
Speaker 1: other team in the league, you have to imagine that
3:38
Speaker 1: it's just not a smart business decision not to take
3:41
Speaker 1: one of those. So U in a chaotic world, he
3:43
Speaker 1: could certainly think about it. I just don't think it's realistic.
3:46
Speaker 1: Do you think the Brooklyn Nets in any way get
3:50
Speaker 1: involved here? The Brooklyn Nets are gonna be players regardless,
3:54
Speaker 1: and if if the rumors are true that they're really
3:56
Speaker 1: in on Kyrie Irving, we know how great of a
3:59
Speaker 1: friendship to Pyrie and Kevin Durant have, so I honestly,
4:03
Speaker 1: after last night, all bets are off. I can even
4:07
Speaker 1: transmit that I had some said knowledge that he was
4:10
Speaker 1: going to go to the Clippers Kevin Durant, but that's
4:13
Speaker 1: all out the window now and it's completely irrelevant because
4:16
Speaker 1: everything's changed. Seems to Worth Achilles like everything's out the
4:20
Speaker 1: window and not a single person, including Kevin Durant, knows
4:23
Speaker 1: what he's doing. I think he's more focused on just
4:25
Speaker 1: getting right first, and uh he was a go from there.
4:28
Speaker 1: But it's certainly looking forward to July is now it's
4:31
Speaker 1: a complete wild card, even more than it was in
4:33
Speaker 1: the past. What do you mean he was going to
4:35
Speaker 1: go to the Clippers. From what I heard, the Clippers
4:40
Speaker 1: were the front runner to get Kevin Durant. That's all.
4:43
Speaker 1: But that information, whether it's true or not, it doesn't
4:46
Speaker 1: matter anymore. All right. So you made a good point
4:50
Speaker 1: about all the players who have had torn achilles and
4:52
Speaker 1: and come back as less than what they were. What
4:55
Speaker 1: is a less than what he was Kevin Durant in
4:58
Speaker 1: terms of value a team in the league. Uh, well,
5:03
Speaker 1: that's my question. You know, he he in my opinion,
5:08
Speaker 1: he was the best. Like that's why this stups so much,
5:10
Speaker 1: because he had finally offended to being the best basketball
5:13
Speaker 1: player on earth. I think unanimously, will the Father time
5:16
Speaker 1: is to Lebron a little bod He's count in the
5:18
Speaker 1: playoffs and just seeing what the ranted to the Rockets.
5:21
Speaker 1: Uh in that first round series against the Clippers, like
5:24
Speaker 1: there was a feeling that this is the guy now,
5:26
Speaker 1: like this is one day. However it was Labron one
5:29
Speaker 1: A to rant one B. I think you can argue
5:31
Speaker 1: that they flipped this postseason. And as soon as he
5:34
Speaker 1: goes down with an injury at this Marymontude, Uh, can
5:37
Speaker 1: he come back to the top ten player most I'm
5:39
Speaker 1: not going to adult the man, so yeah, absolutely, but
5:41
Speaker 1: it's just hard for me to believe he can return
5:44
Speaker 1: and be at that same level that he was at.
5:46
Speaker 1: But he's certainly worth a max contract, don't get me wrong.
5:49
Speaker 1: And he's gonna be one of the guys that if
5:51
Speaker 1: he's on your team, you're guaranteed to be a championship contender.
5:54
Speaker 1: I just don't know if he's going to be in
5:56
Speaker 1: the stratosphere of greatest players of all time for an
5:59
Speaker 1: extended period because the Achilles injury is just so drastic. Now,
6:03
Speaker 1: rob let's let's shift our focus here to this series
6:06
Speaker 1: a little bit. It's now three two, heading back to Oracle.
6:10
Speaker 1: It feels to me a little bit like Toronto. Let
6:12
Speaker 1: Freddy Krueger get up off the mat here and that
6:15
Speaker 1: that feels like a mistake, Like Chad and I were
6:17
Speaker 1: talking about it on the way over here. It almost
6:21
Speaker 1: feels like like this is going seven now, Like I
6:24
Speaker 1: can't imagine Golden State losing this on their home court.
6:26
Speaker 1: How do you see game six? The comparison Freddy Krueger
6:32
Speaker 1: things pretty accurate. You know, it's the hardest punched. The
6:34
Speaker 1: throw is the knockout right. There was a point in
6:37
Speaker 1: that game when they're jabbing a little bit. By the
6:38
Speaker 1: time they got to the point quarter they're putting her clothes,
6:40
Speaker 1: they able to put the close up anymore. They were
6:42
Speaker 1: just throwing shot for shot and pull. Somebody dropped. It
6:45
Speaker 1: felt like the end of Rocky for there that you're
6:47
Speaker 1: gonna do it, but it didn't actually happen. You know
6:50
Speaker 1: that that was the vibes I was getting. There's a
6:53
Speaker 1: game of throwing reference. Nobody running around the mountain celebrating,
6:56
Speaker 1: demanding that the mountain admit that he did that to
6:59
Speaker 1: assist in the mountain grabs himid smashes his face, and
7:02
Speaker 1: you know, we could dis similars and analogies all day here,
7:05
Speaker 1: but for me, just the first and foremost, it was
7:10
Speaker 1: one of the biggest holy ship moments that I've seen
7:12
Speaker 1: in the finals, probably since the Lebron Jr. Last year
7:17
Speaker 1: Lebron performance. This is up there in terms of gutsiest
7:20
Speaker 1: performances of all the time from a team with Durant
7:23
Speaker 1: going down and then blowing the lead and coming back
7:26
Speaker 1: from it like getting off the matt down six after
7:29
Speaker 1: Kwiet giving these two bunkets for ten straight minutes and
7:33
Speaker 1: it was like, this is it, It's gonna happen, and
7:36
Speaker 1: this team just never It's unreal. And now that they
7:40
Speaker 1: have to go back to Oracle, I'm still in the
7:42
Speaker 1: camp with the Rappids are gonna win this game recordless.
7:45
Speaker 1: But you had it. You had as good a chance
7:48
Speaker 1: to knock them off as anyone has ever had, sincilbroun In,
7:53
Speaker 1: I am so torn. Like suddenly, to me, Clay and
7:57
Speaker 1: Staff are sympathetic figures because they're they're doing it for
8:04
Speaker 1: in a throwback way, which makes it seem like the
8:07
Speaker 1: teams that they played on were so much worse than
8:10
Speaker 1: than they actually were, because now they're carrying a team
8:13
Speaker 1: that actually just isn't as deep as it was back then.
8:16
Speaker 1: But like, I feel like them doing it without Durant
8:21
Speaker 1: makes them someone that I'm cheering so hard for. On
8:24
Speaker 1: the flip side, I love Nick Nurse. I love his story,
8:28
Speaker 1: I love where he's come from. I love the fact
8:31
Speaker 1: he had this team up three one. I will feel
8:33
Speaker 1: sick to my stomach for him if he ends up
8:34
Speaker 1: losing this series. And seven, I love the narrative of Kauai.
8:38
Speaker 1: Is he gonna stay or go? If he brings this
8:39
Speaker 1: town of championship, does he then sort of leave it
8:43
Speaker 1: behind there? The narratives right now are amazing and it's
8:47
Speaker 1: messing with my betting head. There's a lot of heart
8:51
Speaker 1: over brain going on here. I I'll tell you this that,
8:56
Speaker 1: just to play double advocate for you for a second,
8:58
Speaker 1: no one's gonna feel badtable worst. They still technically have
9:01
Speaker 1: five All Stars in their teams with this final MVP,
9:04
Speaker 1: so there should be no excuses even with Al Durant book.
9:06
Speaker 1: The performance that we just saw from Stephen Clay last
9:09
Speaker 1: night that the entire continent, not even country of the
9:12
Speaker 1: United States, the continent of North America knew exactly what
9:16
Speaker 1: they were going through doing the three minutes. I gotta
9:18
Speaker 1: run off all screens for Clay is stuff Laker's cousins
9:21
Speaker 1: and standing under the room wide open, and nobody hears
9:24
Speaker 1: because Stephan Clay are shooting those basketball They're going down
9:27
Speaker 1: swinging with the brothers with the entire country of Kada
9:31
Speaker 1: inside of their shirts. They were still getting up those
9:34
Speaker 1: threes in making them and just completely normalizing these egregious,
9:39
Speaker 1: unfathomable clutch three point shots that they have never missed
9:43
Speaker 1: since the beginning of this dynasty. So they're gonna build
9:46
Speaker 1: the statues outside of Oracle in the Chase Center in
9:49
Speaker 1: San Francisco next year. I hope it is step and
9:52
Speaker 1: play shooting together with seven or eight offenders around them,
9:55
Speaker 1: because after last night, it's that type of performance. And
9:58
Speaker 1: I am always going to remember the Golden State Warriors
10:01
Speaker 1: by not not that the ran dominants over the cast
10:04
Speaker 1: and the sweeps, all that they caught up on that
10:07
Speaker 1: and they went to arguably one of the best backcourts
10:10
Speaker 1: in NBA history, with the whole world knowing, telegraphing knowledge
10:15
Speaker 1: of what was going to happen. And it's still be
10:18
Speaker 1: that right there, winner lose to find the Warrior's legacy
10:21
Speaker 1: for me, is there is there a road for the
10:25
Speaker 1: Warriors to win these next two games other than Steph
10:28
Speaker 1: and Clay like going for thirty seven apiece. I think
10:33
Speaker 1: really need the Marcus Cousins. You know, he's so frustrating
10:37
Speaker 1: because they had flashes in that game pod We're like,
10:40
Speaker 1: he's backed. Finally, that's the book you we need and
10:42
Speaker 1: then it gets the spotlight. It's really bright there in
10:45
Speaker 1: the fourth quarter and the Marks Cousins isn't even looking
10:47
Speaker 1: at the wind to shoot, and Andre and Draymond are
10:52
Speaker 1: just drilling around trying to get step and play open.
10:54
Speaker 1: And for all of those years, Book was notorious for
10:58
Speaker 1: being a ballhog in the spots like how do you
11:00
Speaker 1: not get your teammates involved? Now it's the complete opposite.
11:03
Speaker 1: So we need to kind a happy media mere with
11:05
Speaker 1: Boogie if they're gonna have a chance because Steph and
11:08
Speaker 1: Clay for gutting that performance. Doubt they can't do that
11:11
Speaker 1: for another nineties six minutes, which is two more games.
11:15
Speaker 1: They they won't even win the game at Oracle if
11:18
Speaker 1: they have to rely on that type of performance from
11:20
Speaker 1: Stephan Clay, it's not humanly possible. They can do it
11:22
Speaker 1: and clutch, you know, clut spurts down the stretch. But
11:25
Speaker 1: we saw what happened when Clay came out of the
11:27
Speaker 1: game at the end of the third quarter. Nick Nurse
11:29
Speaker 1: didn't even do a boxing one this time. He went
11:31
Speaker 1: to a triangle in too. He has zero respect for
11:34
Speaker 1: the Jordan Bills, the diret Goes and anyone not named
11:38
Speaker 1: Steph and Clay because are honestly none of them will shoot.
11:41
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't play a normal defense either, and it's
11:45
Speaker 1: up to boogie, is my opinion. Let let me ask
11:48
Speaker 1: you this, though, it seems the one guy who is
11:51
Speaker 1: willing to shoot on that team is Quinn Cook. I mean,
11:54
Speaker 1: is it worthwhile for the Warriors to maybe give him
11:57
Speaker 1: some more run at the expensive Iguidala because like you
12:00
Speaker 1: said that, but but I mean, Chad, they're not They're
12:04
Speaker 1: willing to let Igwadala and Dreymond Green take ten threes
12:07
Speaker 1: a game and make three between the two of them.
12:10
Speaker 1: Is it worth letting another shooter out there just to
12:13
Speaker 1: create some spacing? Your your assessment there is not only
12:18
Speaker 1: true that it's like three out of ten between the
12:21
Speaker 1: two of them, but it's exactly what Jef van Gundy
12:23
Speaker 1: was alluding to their down the stretch that Iguadallo had
12:26
Speaker 1: a wide open, like eighteen footer on a pull up.
12:28
Speaker 1: But that's not Igwadala's game. You know, he's a catching
12:30
Speaker 1: shoot kind of guy. Uh, And he went out there
12:33
Speaker 1: and just he almost broke the backboard. He missed so bad.
12:36
Speaker 1: So to you sacrifice what he gives you on the
12:38
Speaker 1: defensive side of the ball for Quinn Cook, you better
12:41
Speaker 1: pray to God that Quinn Cook has that game too.
12:44
Speaker 1: I think you know Team two and he has that
12:46
Speaker 1: national championship game that he had Burduke because this team
12:49
Speaker 1: was king destroyed on the class Abaca. This all in Kauai.
12:54
Speaker 1: Unless that ball shaped off the rim, there was not
12:57
Speaker 1: a chance in hell Warriors or going you can rebound.
13:01
Speaker 1: And the fact that we're having this conversation about the
13:03
Speaker 1: Warriors that they're not the ones with the advantage of
13:05
Speaker 1: every category is yet another true testiment to the Raptors
13:09
Speaker 1: are simply just a better team without Durant on the
13:12
Speaker 1: Warriors they are. They flip the narrative completely that you
13:15
Speaker 1: could never out Warriors the Warriors in the past. Well,
13:18
Speaker 1: the Raptors are making the Warriors play the style of
13:22
Speaker 1: the way that they play in the half courts set,
13:24
Speaker 1: and they're going to get out on you in transition
13:26
Speaker 1: off turnovers. That's what the Warriors made their name off,
13:29
Speaker 1: that's what their dynasty legacy is built around, and that
13:32
Speaker 1: the Raptors have just clept up that from them is
13:34
Speaker 1: truly remarkable. So right now the game opened it four
13:38
Speaker 1: and a half, it's been beat down to three Golden
13:42
Speaker 1: State minus three. I'm looking in the Action Network gap,
13:45
Speaker 1: which is Blackjack free free to download. Go download it.
13:50
Speaker 1: The money is coming in on Toronto, largely public money.
13:54
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I want to wait and hit
13:56
Speaker 1: that number when it gets a little bit lower and
13:58
Speaker 1: buy me some Warriors. Wow, what am I doing well?
14:03
Speaker 1: I mean, for the same reasons why I personally I
14:07
Speaker 1: had the Lawyers in Game five, even in Toronto, despite
14:10
Speaker 1: having the Raptors for the series. I thought they were
14:12
Speaker 1: gonna play with a lot of nervous energy at home,
14:14
Speaker 1: and I thought the Warriors were gonna get out quick
14:16
Speaker 1: on them, is what I said. And you know, whether
14:18
Speaker 1: that was true or not, the nervous energy affected them.
14:20
Speaker 1: It did. And this is gonna be the last game
14:23
Speaker 1: ever played at Lotcal Arena. It's gonna be emotional. You
14:26
Speaker 1: think of any narrative you can come up with. The
14:29
Speaker 1: Warriors have lost two games in this series at home.
14:31
Speaker 1: They've lost multiple games against the Clippers and Rockets at home.
14:35
Speaker 1: And I don't know if Oracle Arena has the same
14:39
Speaker 1: power this like fully armed in operational battlestation from Star
14:43
Speaker 1: Wars that it has in the past. So if we're
14:46
Speaker 1: factoring in home court advantage, here is it worth four points?
14:51
Speaker 1: You know, probably still on paper and the Warriors are
14:53
Speaker 1: gonna be vibing like they always do with that crowdacy.
14:56
Speaker 1: But the fact remains to me that over the course
14:59
Speaker 1: of a forty eight man it James said this, it's
15:01
Speaker 1: not a point where many games is not one had
15:03
Speaker 1: done much his and works madness. We're simply too many
15:06
Speaker 1: possessions for me to believe that Stephan Clay can do
15:08
Speaker 1: that again. I do think the Raptors called it out
15:11
Speaker 1: and again, and I can't believe I'm saying this. It's
15:13
Speaker 1: because they're better. Wow. Wow, it's just stunning to hear
15:20
Speaker 1: after the dominance this team has had sustained over all
15:24
Speaker 1: these years, to hear to hear you say that that
15:26
Speaker 1: the Raptors are just better, and I know you're you're right.
15:29
Speaker 1: It's just I have such a hard time rob betting
15:34
Speaker 1: against those two guys in this spot. I don't know
15:36
Speaker 1: what it is that's short of a number. I'm going
15:38
Speaker 1: to assume this two days rest. This number shrinks with
15:41
Speaker 1: two days I think you're right. I think it will
15:42
Speaker 1: drop with two days rest. At home the last game
15:45
Speaker 1: in that building. Everything in my body tells me Golden
15:49
Speaker 1: State wins this game. He's not wrong about the possessions though,
15:52
Speaker 1: like look at that game last night. Yeah, there are
15:57
Speaker 1: there are. There are a lot of reasons the bad
16:00
Speaker 1: Golden State. So I don't think there's a bad debt
16:03
Speaker 1: he artcause being honestly, because I can make cases for
16:06
Speaker 1: both teams and if there's a day that can ever
16:08
Speaker 1: avalanche into a pretty point when it just wipe the
16:11
Speaker 1: late waste to their opponents listening to the gold State.
16:14
Speaker 1: Whereas even without him to rant, we have to remember
16:18
Speaker 1: that the Toronto Draphers have the best player on the
16:20
Speaker 1: floor by far. They have a nuclear weapon that cannot stops,
16:24
Speaker 1: and he is dominating at both ends. And if they
16:27
Speaker 1: just get one mate shot at a Kyle Lowry or
16:29
Speaker 1: Pascal Siako, I did they didn't get that in game five?
16:33
Speaker 1: You have to assume that because the zig zag theory
16:35
Speaker 1: that's kind of happened here with the performances from the
16:38
Speaker 1: guys like Seaco and Lowry, that they're gonna eventually make
16:41
Speaker 1: shots again. And then what happens. Are you praying at
16:44
Speaker 1: a Kuai game that cos a somewhat quiet because even
16:48
Speaker 1: if he's nas shoot and well, he's able to accomminate
16:50
Speaker 1: the game in the other place, like we saw last
16:52
Speaker 1: night with his offensive, rebounding and just keeping possessions alive.
16:55
Speaker 1: Any suction cup steals when the Warriors are trying to
16:57
Speaker 1: get out the transition, there's so many he waits for
17:01
Speaker 1: him to just put his mark on there and I
17:04
Speaker 1: can't bet against that. I'm sorry, rob Let. Let me
17:06
Speaker 1: just ask you this. We talked a lot about the
17:08
Speaker 1: Warriors mindset after Durant, you know, the injury and all that.
17:13
Speaker 1: What is Toronto's mindset like right now? Because they had
17:16
Speaker 1: a championship literally within their grasp at home, it was there,
17:22
Speaker 1: They led the game six points down the stretch, they
17:26
Speaker 1: had a chance to win it on the last possession.
17:28
Speaker 1: How does that affect them going forward? Knowing all of
17:32
Speaker 1: the postseason failures this team has had in the past,
17:34
Speaker 1: obviously without Kawhi Leonard, But how does it affect the
17:37
Speaker 1: rest of that team? I would say it's as close
17:40
Speaker 1: to theroow as possible, But the demons of the Raptors
17:43
Speaker 1: past are dead. Just because there's differences wearing this this uniform.
17:47
Speaker 1: I understand it has Raptors on the front, but all
17:49
Speaker 1: those to Marduros and days of choking Lebron, No nobody
17:53
Speaker 1: cares about toes and I got the vibe after Paying
17:55
Speaker 1: four when that Raptors team was reportedly in the locker
17:58
Speaker 1: room not even celebrating, or some only just not saying
18:00
Speaker 1: a word. They know the series is and over or
18:03
Speaker 1: even close to being over. And I think they have
18:05
Speaker 1: the same building after after Game five. Do they know
18:08
Speaker 1: they missed an opportunity? Yeah, they're all human. Uh, they
18:11
Speaker 1: understand that it was right there on the dust and
18:13
Speaker 1: that really sucks. But I'm going to Oracle thinking I'm
18:17
Speaker 1: playing and still playing with house money here because even
18:19
Speaker 1: if we lose, we get another opportunity to redeem ourselves.
18:22
Speaker 1: And the third facet of this all is they haven't
18:25
Speaker 1: played well at home either all all postseason. They've all
18:28
Speaker 1: said first game to Orlando, they lose first games of
18:30
Speaker 1: the series at home all the time. And they've been
18:33
Speaker 1: playing better on the road all years, so they may
18:35
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable not having all of that pressure of
18:38
Speaker 1: Canada and all of that nervous energy in front of
18:41
Speaker 1: those fans. It's proven that they can play better without
18:45
Speaker 1: that presence there, so it may be an advantage from
18:47
Speaker 1: them going on the road. And quote hostile atmosphere isn't
18:52
Speaker 1: their own supporters. Alright, worldwide, We thanks so much for
18:57
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. The good news is one more game.
19:00
Speaker 1: We have one more game to talk about at least,
19:03
Speaker 1: which we're gonna do. Thanks man, Thank you, Jesus. Thanks
19:06
Speaker 1: guys joining us now on the podcast. David Hill, writer
19:12
Speaker 1: wrote a story for The Ringer that is really about, um,
19:19
Speaker 1: the world of sports betting today and what professional sports
19:22
Speaker 1: bettors are confronting and underneath it all sort of how
19:26
Speaker 1: the industry is evolving and what this means for all
19:29
Speaker 1: of us, both as sports fans and then more more
19:32
Speaker 1: sort of myopically as sports people in the sports betting industry.
19:36
Speaker 1: Thank you, sir, uh. David, welcome, great job in the story.
19:41
Speaker 1: Thanks uh. The centerpiece of the story is a character
19:45
Speaker 1: named Spanky, who's a professional better use their real name. No,
19:52
Speaker 1: he uses his real name in the story. It's his nickname.
19:55
Speaker 1: He was a chat Oh. Because you don't use your
19:58
Speaker 1: real name, it is you're like a circus clown. David,
20:03
Speaker 1: answer the question, please, I don't know. I'll try. I um,
20:07
Speaker 1: you know. I originally reached out to Spanky to write
20:09
Speaker 1: a much more kind of pedestrian story. I wanted to
20:11
Speaker 1: um just watched the Super Bowl with UM, like a
20:15
Speaker 1: big sports better in New Jersey and one of the
20:17
Speaker 1: sports books and kind of write something about, um, what's
20:22
Speaker 1: you know about the industry in New Jersey and how
20:24
Speaker 1: I had grown over the last six months or however
20:25
Speaker 1: many months it had been at that point, and he
20:28
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not gonna watch the super Bowl. I
20:30
Speaker 1: don't watch the super Bowl. So UM we just kept
20:34
Speaker 1: talking and UM he had this. He started talking to
20:37
Speaker 1: me about some of what he's seen in the industry.
20:40
Speaker 1: And the more we talked, the more I realized that
20:42
Speaker 1: there was a deeper story there. And so I spent
20:45
Speaker 1: a few months kind of hanging out with him and
20:47
Speaker 1: his crew and UM, going back and forth Atlantic City
20:50
Speaker 1: and UM and uh, learning what I could about him
20:54
Speaker 1: in his life and uh in the industry today. Why
20:57
Speaker 1: do you think, uh he let you follow him? Well,
21:01
Speaker 1: I think he you see it in the story a
21:03
Speaker 1: little bit too. Like he once he kind of decided that, UM,
21:07
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to get to betnywhere in New Jersey,
21:09
Speaker 1: and UM, Mike had this idea that they used social
21:12
Speaker 1: media to try to like one of the guys on
21:15
Speaker 1: his team. Yeah, and UM they stayed sort of went
21:18
Speaker 1: on Twitter and started posting these videos of him getting
21:21
Speaker 1: you know, backed off at all these um sports books,
21:24
Speaker 1: and that was picking up some traction, and I think
21:27
Speaker 1: he realized that, um, he didn't have much to lose
21:30
Speaker 1: by kind of being more public and that um, he
21:32
Speaker 1: had a lot of leverage over them, the books, who
21:36
Speaker 1: I think had a lot more to lose from bad publicity.
21:39
Speaker 1: I mean, every bad thing that could happen to Spanky's
21:41
Speaker 1: already happened to him, you know. I mean he got arrested,
21:43
Speaker 1: he had all his money taken away from him. You know,
21:45
Speaker 1: he's had a lot of you know, so at this
21:47
Speaker 1: point he's, um, he sort of sees this as a
21:49
Speaker 1: hail Mary pass um to try to change something in
21:53
Speaker 1: the industry. You say that, um, you know he's doing
21:59
Speaker 1: this to try to h to to force some some
22:02
Speaker 1: leverage against the casinos for for them not taking his bets.
22:06
Speaker 1: I mean, just objectively, what is the what is the
22:09
Speaker 1: chief complaint there? I mean, it's it's a private business.
22:11
Speaker 1: They can serve where they choose to serve. Yeah, it is,
22:13
Speaker 1: It's true. And uh, I think one of the things
22:15
Speaker 1: I heard from one thing that gamblers would say over
22:18
Speaker 1: and over to me was it's so Unamerican what they're doing.
22:21
Speaker 1: And I always kind of laugh at that because it
22:22
Speaker 1: feels to me like it's the most American thing ever. Right,
22:25
Speaker 1: like the idea of saying like, hey, I'm I'm trying
22:27
Speaker 1: to make a buck here, I'm not trying to give
22:29
Speaker 1: my money to you, so you can't you can't bet
22:32
Speaker 1: with me. But um, But what I do think resonates
22:36
Speaker 1: with people is that it, um, it seems unfair and
22:41
Speaker 1: it's unfair and kind of a in in more ways
22:44
Speaker 1: than it's not unfair in like a silly way, it's
22:46
Speaker 1: unfair and a really concrete way. And the one thing
22:48
Speaker 1: that was sort of there were two things that I
22:49
Speaker 1: think we're really really kind of meaningful to me as
22:52
Speaker 1: someone from the outside looking in. The first is that
22:55
Speaker 1: a sharp player, Um, a sharp player has information right
22:59
Speaker 1: that's about able to the book, and the book gets
23:01
Speaker 1: to buy that as cheaply as they want, right, Because
23:03
Speaker 1: when you go to make a bet, they can say, well,
23:05
Speaker 1: you tell them what you want to bet, and then
23:06
Speaker 1: they tell you how much you can bet for. So
23:08
Speaker 1: they're buying your information cheap and you don't get an
23:10
Speaker 1: opportunity to walk, they already know what you're trying to bet.
23:13
Speaker 1: So sometimes they can deny you a bet and they
23:15
Speaker 1: get your information for free, and then they can move
23:17
Speaker 1: off that information without taking the action. To me, that
23:19
Speaker 1: seems like that should be that's completely unfair. Sure. The
23:22
Speaker 1: second thing that I thought was compelling was that, um,
23:25
Speaker 1: you know, people are people who are um good at
23:28
Speaker 1: this want to believe that they can make a living
23:30
Speaker 1: at it, and you can't. And I think that the
23:32
Speaker 1: marketing around the marketing around sports betting is something that
23:37
Speaker 1: you can win at, something that you can be good at.
23:39
Speaker 1: You know that you can be a handicapper and you
23:40
Speaker 1: can you know, pick games whatever. That that's that there's
23:43
Speaker 1: you know, there's something untrue about that if the rules
23:45
Speaker 1: are that the book can deny you if they think
23:48
Speaker 1: you're a winning players. So I think that like like
23:51
Speaker 1: one of the things that Rufus Peabody says in the
23:53
Speaker 1: story is that, um, you know, in Vegas used to
23:55
Speaker 1: be their house limits posted and so if you were
23:57
Speaker 1: like some if you were like Bruce Willis or some
24:00
Speaker 1: thin or you were like some you know, Floyd Mayweather,
24:02
Speaker 1: you could bet anything you wanted. You know what I mean,
24:04
Speaker 1: You could bet the farm, but for everybody else walking
24:07
Speaker 1: in there were posted limits. And that was the same
24:09
Speaker 1: whether you were sharp or whether you were just a sucker. Right,
24:12
Speaker 1: but you had posted limits. You knew what your limit
24:13
Speaker 1: was before you walked up. That sharp is not going
24:16
Speaker 1: to get cheated because they know what they're going to
24:18
Speaker 1: get to bet before they go in there and give
24:19
Speaker 1: that information to the book. So to me, that really
24:21
Speaker 1: that resonated. This is a you know, I think my
24:25
Speaker 1: original title for the piece was Requiem for a Bookmaker,
24:27
Speaker 1: not Requiem for a sports better, because I actually think
24:29
Speaker 1: that what the story is telling is that bookmakers or
24:32
Speaker 1: would have died out right, not sports better, so that
24:34
Speaker 1: we don't really have bookmakers anymore. We just we just
24:37
Speaker 1: had these like trading desk, these like kind of finance
24:39
Speaker 1: you know, finance capital type companies, and um, what we
24:44
Speaker 1: don't have is somebody who's hanging a number, offering a
24:46
Speaker 1: bet and saying, here's a bet. Who wants the other
24:48
Speaker 1: side of it, Let's let's make a bet. That doesn't exist.
24:50
Speaker 1: It's just people who want to enter into a contract
24:52
Speaker 1: where they have all of the language and the contract.
24:54
Speaker 1: And so I thought that you know, made to me,
24:57
Speaker 1: and I don't. Look, I don't want to be too
24:58
Speaker 1: romantic about it, but I think there is something a
25:00
Speaker 1: little romantic about this idea of like a bet being
25:03
Speaker 1: bet between two parties having you know, it's like we
25:06
Speaker 1: both entered into an agreement and we're going to make
25:07
Speaker 1: this bet and one of us will win and the
25:09
Speaker 1: other one will lose. Um. I think that, like, that's
25:12
Speaker 1: the way that people told me it used to be,
25:14
Speaker 1: and it's not that way anymore. And I think the
25:16
Speaker 1: only reason it's not that way anymore is because these
25:18
Speaker 1: companies are trying to, you know, squeeze every bit of
25:21
Speaker 1: blood out of the stone that they can get. It
25:24
Speaker 1: used to be. I have so many thoughts on what
25:26
Speaker 1: you just said. Uh, it used to be a more,
25:30
Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, gentlemanly game. Even when
25:34
Speaker 1: people were killing each other literally, there was sort of
25:36
Speaker 1: a code that made it feel romantic. Uh. You quoted
25:40
Speaker 1: Joe Lubo in the story who I know really well
25:42
Speaker 1: and who was a character of mine in the book
25:44
Speaker 1: I wrote about all this like twenty years ago, and
25:47
Speaker 1: uh he uh, he sort of captured the spirit of
25:53
Speaker 1: what I think is at the heart of this dilemma,
25:56
Speaker 1: which is I'm happy to take your bet. I'll take
25:59
Speaker 1: one hit, I'll find what you're doing, I'll let you
26:01
Speaker 1: bet big, and then I'm moving on. Um. But he's
26:03
Speaker 1: pretty old school, and I think what is happening now
26:06
Speaker 1: was these bookmakers are actually just catching up to the
26:09
Speaker 1: rest of the casino business right as the potential for
26:14
Speaker 1: the volume has become bigger. The idea behind the casinos
26:19
Speaker 1: is we want people who do risk management, and risk
26:23
Speaker 1: management to us means increasing profitability and minimizing risk. And
26:28
Speaker 1: so they're not interested in sort of the spirit of
26:30
Speaker 1: the way the game used to be. They want to
26:31
Speaker 1: run it the way they want slots, the way they well,
26:34
Speaker 1: you know, originally like people that you know, street bookies
26:37
Speaker 1: or whatever, they were gambling, right, they were gamblings. They
26:39
Speaker 1: weren't balanced, you know what I mean. They took me
26:40
Speaker 1: they actually couldn't they are. And even when they sort
26:43
Speaker 1: of moved into Nevada and we're booking legally in Nevada.
26:46
Speaker 1: You know. I quote Vix Learner on the piece. He's
26:48
Speaker 1: the guy that started LeRoy's and he said we were
26:49
Speaker 1: gambling all the time. He said there was a you know,
26:51
Speaker 1: the in the during the um hag Learns fight. I
26:54
Speaker 1: My whole business was on the line of that fight,
26:56
Speaker 1: you know. UM. Once they were able to move into
26:58
Speaker 1: the casinos, UM when the when the taxes sort of
27:02
Speaker 1: changed in Nevada, casinos treated sports books as an amenity, right.
27:06
Speaker 1: It wasn't a part of their bottom line. They understood
27:08
Speaker 1: that this is the riskiest part of our business. We
27:10
Speaker 1: might even lose money in here, but this is an
27:11
Speaker 1: amenity we offer for customers to come in and play
27:14
Speaker 1: in our casino and spend money in other ways. And
27:17
Speaker 1: so there wasn't a lot of pressure on them. I
27:18
Speaker 1: think the problem now is that states that are legalizing UM,
27:21
Speaker 1: you know, in regulating bookmaking now, they the states want
27:25
Speaker 1: so much tax they see this as they want so
27:27
Speaker 1: much tax revenue that there's almost like you have to
27:29
Speaker 1: guarantee a certain edge that may be as harder to guarantee.
27:31
Speaker 1: You can't look at it as an amenity if it's
27:33
Speaker 1: a standalone thing, if it's not just a piece of
27:35
Speaker 1: a larger gaming property, UM or if you're not or
27:39
Speaker 1: if you're not running a sports but you're not running
27:41
Speaker 1: your book as a gambler willing to take a risk,
27:44
Speaker 1: or even as you know, even as um a traitor
27:47
Speaker 1: if you want to use that language UM instead. I
27:50
Speaker 1: think there's too much pressure on them to to um
27:53
Speaker 1: bring back too high of a percentage. And so that's
27:55
Speaker 1: why I think we're seeing these kind of buzz saw tactics.
27:58
Speaker 1: And you bring up a great point because as more
28:00
Speaker 1: states legalize it, you're seeing some states get really crazy
28:04
Speaker 1: with with the taxation on it. I mean Rhode Island
28:06
Speaker 1: for example, I think tax to which I mean, you know,
28:10
Speaker 1: Chad sports books. The margins are so when you tax
28:15
Speaker 1: at that percentage, I mean you're going to eventually have
28:18
Speaker 1: states I think that that this wine's up failing in.
28:21
Speaker 1: I mean, what what do you think about that? Do
28:22
Speaker 1: you think that we will have a rush to legalize
28:25
Speaker 1: and then some states kind of back out and say, look,
28:27
Speaker 1: this isn't working. I think that if a state doesn't
28:29
Speaker 1: have the liquidity, you know, they don't have volume or
28:32
Speaker 1: whatever UM, and the tax rate is too high, they're
28:34
Speaker 1: gonna disappointed at what they bring back. So Rhode Islands
28:37
Speaker 1: a state a good example where I think they're bringing
28:39
Speaker 1: back some pitiful amount back to the states. So the
28:41
Speaker 1: voters or the state legislators are gonna look at and say, oh,
28:44
Speaker 1: we don't really make anything off of this. The business
28:46
Speaker 1: may survive there, but it's not going to be what
28:49
Speaker 1: the state thought it would. I think New Jerseys proving
28:51
Speaker 1: that they're gonna do fine. But they have they have
28:53
Speaker 1: such a huge market of people too, and they have
28:55
Speaker 1: so many different business you know, companies competing there. Um.
28:59
Speaker 1: I think it, Uh, the tax rates will start to
29:02
Speaker 1: all sort of if we do this nationwide, the law
29:05
Speaker 1: get to be the same in every state, you know
29:06
Speaker 1: what I mean, But for for a minute now, it's
29:08
Speaker 1: gonna be really weird where every state is going to
29:10
Speaker 1: have a different situation. Alright. So you spent all this
29:12
Speaker 1: time with Spanky and there's sort of a great through
29:15
Speaker 1: line in the story where he's basically using you as
29:18
Speaker 1: a runner. Uh, and you're going to make as many bets.
29:21
Speaker 1: You know, if you can get ten times down, you'll
29:23
Speaker 1: get ten times. You end up getting five. Take listeners
29:27
Speaker 1: through the process of what it's like going to the
29:28
Speaker 1: counter with that brick of cash and trying to make bets,
29:32
Speaker 1: and how the bookmakers are responding to you. I mean,
29:35
Speaker 1: it was stressful for me. You know, I've got this
29:37
Speaker 1: guy who I barely know. I have a bag for
29:39
Speaker 1: his money, and like, if you know, I can't let
29:42
Speaker 1: that bag disappear or I might disappear, right, So I'm
29:44
Speaker 1: I'm definitely nervous about that part of it. But um,
29:47
Speaker 1: and this is Atlantic City, you know what I mean.
29:49
Speaker 1: I mean, I love Atlantic City. But let's be real, right,
29:51
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, people will get you for a
29:55
Speaker 1: lot less. So you know, it was, Um, I think
29:58
Speaker 1: the book immediately. Um, the manager of sports book, I
30:02
Speaker 1: think he knew exactly what the deal was right away.
30:04
Speaker 1: That's what I think. I think he knew that I was.
30:06
Speaker 1: You know, Um, I mean he'd never met me before.
30:09
Speaker 1: I've never been in there before, and here I am
30:10
Speaker 1: showing up and saying, hey, I'm in a bit ten
30:12
Speaker 1: thousand and game. I'm sure I'm not the first person
30:14
Speaker 1: to come through and do the In fact, I'd seen
30:16
Speaker 1: other guys while I was in the book come through
30:17
Speaker 1: with backpacks full of money and make a bunch of
30:19
Speaker 1: bets and lead probably head into the next book down
30:21
Speaker 1: the boardwalk, you know. So I think there's quite a
30:23
Speaker 1: bit of that going on in New Jersey anyway. Um,
30:25
Speaker 1: But it was funny, like you know, when they put
30:26
Speaker 1: your money into the little money counter and it he goes,
30:29
Speaker 1: do you know everybody's heads turn? You know what I mean?
30:31
Speaker 1: It's really true. Like the whole casino. I feel like
30:33
Speaker 1: everybody's heads turn when they hear that sound, and they're like,
30:35
Speaker 1: what's going on over there? So but the UM, what
30:39
Speaker 1: was interesting to me was I got limited real quick,
30:41
Speaker 1: like second bet I made, and UM the teller, the
30:44
Speaker 1: tellers at this book at the ocean, they were blown
30:47
Speaker 1: away by it. And this was over two days, and
30:48
Speaker 1: every time I got a new teller, it was the
30:49
Speaker 1: same thing all over again. Whether they're like I've never
30:51
Speaker 1: seen this before. I don't understand what they're doing to you. Um,
30:54
Speaker 1: you know, we take bets bigger than this all the time,
30:57
Speaker 1: Like what's going on? You know? I think the manager,
31:00
Speaker 1: least one of the days, the manager, I think knew
31:01
Speaker 1: what was up. But for most part, the employees felt
31:03
Speaker 1: like they hadn't seen a lot of seeing somebody get
31:06
Speaker 1: limited so so much so quickly. Um. But you know,
31:09
Speaker 1: I just shrugged my shoulders. I was just playing the part.
31:11
Speaker 1: I was like, Man, I don't know, you know, I
31:13
Speaker 1: guess they think I'm gonna win. I don't know what
31:15
Speaker 1: they limit you to. Well, the first the first bet
31:19
Speaker 1: I made was five thousand dollars and in the second
31:20
Speaker 1: bet they limited me to a thousand, but that was
31:22
Speaker 1: for um. That was for a total um for sides.
31:26
Speaker 1: I was able to still bet five thousand for a
31:29
Speaker 1: little bit, and then they they dropped me down to
31:31
Speaker 1: a thousand across the board and uh, do you think
31:33
Speaker 1: they recognize you were betting for Spanky or you? They
31:37
Speaker 1: just thought he's playing for somebody. Well, the thing is,
31:40
Speaker 1: when we say they, I mean the folks in Atlantic City,
31:43
Speaker 1: they had no say in it. They punched the bed
31:45
Speaker 1: into a computer, and then there's a trading office in
31:48
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, and then trading offices the bet and they'd
31:51
Speaker 1: make a determination. So they're looking at the number, they're
31:53
Speaker 1: looking at what the game is. They look at my name,
31:56
Speaker 1: but see, I got nothing on me, you know what
31:58
Speaker 1: I mean. They may have googled me and saw that
32:00
Speaker 1: I've written I write about gambling, and maybe they thought, okay,
32:02
Speaker 1: maybe that played into it somehow, but but for the
32:05
Speaker 1: most part, I'm I've got so there's no way they
32:07
Speaker 1: connected me to a particular player. I think they figured
32:10
Speaker 1: the actions sharp because it's like well, if he's bet
32:12
Speaker 1: in this game, he's trying to bet you know whatever,
32:14
Speaker 1: three thou dollars on the Lakers, and then thirty minutes
32:18
Speaker 1: later we find out that Lebron is out. You know,
32:20
Speaker 1: then you're marked right away as a sharp player. So
32:23
Speaker 1: I wish there would have been more about his wife
32:29
Speaker 1: and their relationship in the story. Uh, And I wondered
32:32
Speaker 1: if you spoke to her. I didn't speak to her,
32:35
Speaker 1: but it does seem to me like they have a
32:37
Speaker 1: pretty strong relationship. Um. You know, they're they're still together,
32:41
Speaker 1: they have they have four kids. They you know, they
32:44
Speaker 1: vacation a lot. They think they have a pretty rich,
32:46
Speaker 1: you know, family life. Um, he's pretty close with his family.
32:50
Speaker 1: We did talk a little bit about how after he
32:52
Speaker 1: got arrested, how when he decided to go back to work,
32:56
Speaker 1: he had to kind of process process that with her,
32:58
Speaker 1: and that she was really scared about it. Um, and
33:00
Speaker 1: he was straight, you know, to his credit, he was
33:02
Speaker 1: straight with her. He said, look, I can't promise you
33:03
Speaker 1: that this won't happen again. Yeah, you mentioned that in
33:05
Speaker 1: the story. And I just was thinking to myself, why
33:09
Speaker 1: does he feel compelled to put everything at risk like that?
33:14
Speaker 1: Because it seemed like, you know, by all accounts, they've
33:17
Speaker 1: got a nice relationship and he's got four kids. And
33:20
Speaker 1: when he had gotten arrested, I imagine and it's one
33:22
Speaker 1: of my questions for you, like he lost all of
33:24
Speaker 1: his money. Um, so he's a pretty smart guy. He
33:30
Speaker 1: doesn't have to do this. So he's compelled by addiction
33:33
Speaker 1: or like why is he doing this? Well, I think
33:37
Speaker 1: he loves the game, um. And by that I mean
33:39
Speaker 1: I think he really loves you know. To him, I
33:42
Speaker 1: think beating the line and you know, outsmarting the books
33:45
Speaker 1: is the reason that I opened and closed the piece
33:47
Speaker 1: with us playing slot machines is because I think that
33:50
Speaker 1: that's that sort of symbolized for me, what was what
33:53
Speaker 1: really the gas and spankies tank is. You know, what
33:55
Speaker 1: really is motivating him is um not money, because when
33:58
Speaker 1: we're playing, these slots were plan for you know, we're
34:01
Speaker 1: playing for pennies and quarters and you know what I mean.
34:04
Speaker 1: But to him, it was that he was outsmarting the
34:06
Speaker 1: casino right, that he was getting an edge on the casino.
34:08
Speaker 1: I think he plays a lot of board games and
34:10
Speaker 1: it was like Twilight Struggle and stuff, and he's like,
34:12
Speaker 1: really his fan he plays backgammon, and you know, he's
34:16
Speaker 1: he's somebody who I think loves games and he loves
34:19
Speaker 1: figuring out puzzles and taking on challenges, and so I
34:21
Speaker 1: think for him that's what's exciting and fun about it
34:24
Speaker 1: for him. But I also think that he feels very
34:27
Speaker 1: passionately and strongly that what he's doing is legal and
34:29
Speaker 1: right and he has broken no laws and that there's
34:32
Speaker 1: no reason that he should be and he that he
34:33
Speaker 1: doesn't believe he's really putting everything at risk because he
34:35
Speaker 1: doesn't feel he put it at risk the first time around.
34:38
Speaker 1: So I think if he I don't mean to speak
34:40
Speaker 1: from too much, but I think he would say that
34:42
Speaker 1: he learned a lot of lessons when he got arrested
34:44
Speaker 1: in and he knows not to make those same mistakes,
34:47
Speaker 1: so that it's very clear what side of the counter
34:49
Speaker 1: he's on now, is what he would say. He says,
34:51
Speaker 1: n I all my business that I conduct now, there
34:53
Speaker 1: won't be any more of this ambiguity. And so you
34:55
Speaker 1: know he was involved in this, you know cannor um
34:58
Speaker 1: gaming situation. How familiar you are with it. I didn't
35:02
Speaker 1: get too much into it, into the piece. It's a
35:04
Speaker 1: whole another saga talk about it for the thirty seconds. Well,
35:07
Speaker 1: it's you know, Canner. Fitzgerald decided to get into gambling
35:10
Speaker 1: at one point, and they started a trading desk where
35:13
Speaker 1: they where they were going to go to Las Vegas
35:17
Speaker 1: and bet right. They were going to use investors money
35:19
Speaker 1: and just gamble it to make make money for their
35:21
Speaker 1: They were doing big, like they were big, and they
35:24
Speaker 1: were the first players doing in play betting. And uh,
35:27
Speaker 1: I remember I did a story about this for sixty
35:29
Speaker 1: when they launched, and I was doing in play like
35:31
Speaker 1: during the Inda Way Tournament no March Madness or yeah
35:35
Speaker 1: n tournament. And I remember leam Madus who was one
35:40
Speaker 1: of the guys who sort of went out there to
35:41
Speaker 1: run it and was at the center of all this.
35:43
Speaker 1: I think if I remember, um, He's like, we just
35:47
Speaker 1: want pennies on the dollar. We're about volume. And then
35:50
Speaker 1: they all ended up getting caught and sort of this
35:53
Speaker 1: scandal where they were basically running an illegal book, one
35:57
Speaker 1: of their bookmakers running in a legal book out of
35:59
Speaker 1: the Yeah, I mean it was a messenger betting too.
36:01
Speaker 1: I mean they were you know, what what happened is
36:02
Speaker 1: they'd get they'd get way too heavy on one side,
36:05
Speaker 1: so they'd go looking for someone to take the other,
36:07
Speaker 1: you know, they look for a layoff guy, and um,
36:09
Speaker 1: that's something I think that's common with live street bookies
36:12
Speaker 1: or whatever. But they would call big players, players like
36:15
Speaker 1: Spanky and say, will you take the other side of
36:17
Speaker 1: this bed? And then the Nevada law that isn't that's
36:20
Speaker 1: not legal. I mean, so, you know, I think players
36:23
Speaker 1: who are playing with them maybe thought that there was
36:25
Speaker 1: that it was legit because it's Candor Fitzgerald and because
36:28
Speaker 1: it's the casino, and because it's people. It's like the
36:30
Speaker 1: executives from the casino are the ones calling you. You
36:32
Speaker 1: think that you're doing that what you're doing is okay,
36:34
Speaker 1: you know. So, um, the government had other ideas about it.
36:37
Speaker 1: But I think Spanky doesn't feel he's putting things at
36:39
Speaker 1: risk now because I think he'd say, what I do,
36:41
Speaker 1: my business that I do is legal, it's legal in
36:43
Speaker 1: the United States. I'm following the laws. I'm not breaking
36:46
Speaker 1: any laws. And he says, like, I have every converence,
36:49
Speaker 1: every conversation I have today, I have it like my
36:51
Speaker 1: phone is tapped to make sure that I don't you
36:52
Speaker 1: know that I always feel like I'm being watched, and
36:54
Speaker 1: so I think that too, is why he's probably more
36:56
Speaker 1: willing to be public now, because he wants to show like,
36:58
Speaker 1: I got nothing to hide. I'm us a gambler. I'm
37:00
Speaker 1: just making bets. But you know, I think he probably
37:04
Speaker 1: realized it was also mistake to have seven thousand dollars
37:07
Speaker 1: in cash in his house too. Yeah. Right, the other
37:10
Speaker 1: gamblers I talked to for the story, we said, yeah,
37:12
Speaker 1: that was kind of stupid. You know, I don't I
37:14
Speaker 1: don't keep any of my cash, you know, because civil
37:17
Speaker 1: forfeiture ism, you know, motivating. You know, when you think
37:19
Speaker 1: about the government coming coming after gamblers, that's a motive
37:23
Speaker 1: reader for them. If they know that you have a
37:24
Speaker 1: lot of money on that they can grab that, that's
37:27
Speaker 1: something they can motivate them nothing but bust, even when
37:29
Speaker 1: they don't have it on you. The the one thing
37:33
Speaker 1: that's challenging is making sports betters look sympathetic, which is
37:40
Speaker 1: a lot of what you're trying to do in this story. Yeah.
37:43
Speaker 1: I think I did try to do a little bit
37:45
Speaker 1: of that. I mean, even with like, at first, I
37:47
Speaker 1: had to convince my editors that I wasn't like, you
37:49
Speaker 1: know whatever, too much and throw all to these guys.
37:51
Speaker 1: But by the way, I don't mean it as a criticism.
37:53
Speaker 1: I mean that's sort of the part of the construct
37:58
Speaker 1: of the story is you're trying to make a case
38:01
Speaker 1: for these big corporations not playing fair, and the people
38:04
Speaker 1: that are not playing fair with are guys who are
38:07
Speaker 1: notoriously not people who you would have sympathy for. Now
38:10
Speaker 1: I understand, and and and I had this the same
38:13
Speaker 1: thing that that black Jack was just saying about, like, well,
38:15
Speaker 1: what's the what's the beef? You know, this is their business.
38:18
Speaker 1: Why can't they tell people to screw off? And I
38:20
Speaker 1: think that another thing that I mentioned to Spanking several times.
38:23
Speaker 1: It's like, man, do you do people the level that
38:26
Speaker 1: you're playing at is not going to make sense to people, right,
38:28
Speaker 1: Like people aren't gonna see it as some big injustice
38:30
Speaker 1: that you can only bet a thousand dollars on a game,
38:33
Speaker 1: like for most of us in America will will never
38:35
Speaker 1: bet a thousand dollars a game. So it's hard to
38:36
Speaker 1: get people to feel bad for you. So I really
38:39
Speaker 1: had to take some time to explain to people that
38:42
Speaker 1: you know, how he makes his money isn't by getting
38:44
Speaker 1: lucky and winning a thousand dollars in a game, but
38:46
Speaker 1: by eking out one to two percent over the long run,
38:48
Speaker 1: and he has employees and he has a family, you know,
38:51
Speaker 1: so like you have to bet millions of dollars in
38:53
Speaker 1: order to eke out something close to you know, six
38:55
Speaker 1: figures there, and you're also risking that you won't even
38:58
Speaker 1: make your one to two percent. You could go under
39:00
Speaker 1: some years. So that in that sense, limiting that player
39:03
Speaker 1: down to a thousand dollars as a killer. And I
39:05
Speaker 1: also wanted to point out to the reader that, like,
39:08
Speaker 1: they're not going to take a thousand dollar bet or
39:10
Speaker 1: even a five dollar bet from this guy, but they
39:12
Speaker 1: do like a half a million dollars a bet in
39:14
Speaker 1: bets a day across one counter, you know what I mean.
39:16
Speaker 1: So the volume is really huge here. So it's like,
39:19
Speaker 1: what are you scared of? I mean, Captain Jack getting
39:21
Speaker 1: limited to thirty dollars that was kind of crazy. Yeah,
39:24
Speaker 1: it's like, what do you this is draft Kings, What
39:26
Speaker 1: are you guys afraid of? You've got so much money
39:27
Speaker 1: you can't give the guy fifty bucks an a bet
39:29
Speaker 1: on an inning. So, you know the way that I
39:32
Speaker 1: tried to make people feel some sympathy for this for
39:34
Speaker 1: the gambler is by showing making people feel unsympathetic about
39:38
Speaker 1: the book. The corporations, I think that we're coming in
39:42
Speaker 1: and sort of changing the game a little bit. David,
39:43
Speaker 1: let me ask you this because obviously we work for
39:45
Speaker 1: a gambling company. Um, but my view on on gambling
39:50
Speaker 1: is that it's something that should be fun. It's something
39:53
Speaker 1: that that you know, you should go into with your
39:55
Speaker 1: eyes open, and probably you should expect more often than
39:58
Speaker 1: not to lose because it's set up that way. The system,
40:01
Speaker 1: the system is set up for the player to lose.
40:05
Speaker 1: People that view it as almost a career or a
40:08
Speaker 1: form of investing. What are your thoughts on that? You
40:11
Speaker 1: have a lot of thoughts on that. But I think
40:12
Speaker 1: about this a lot. I read a lot about gambling
40:14
Speaker 1: on a gamble and it's it's something that's in my
40:17
Speaker 1: family and it's something that, like I, um, I'm drawn
40:19
Speaker 1: to and I've always wondered why. And you know, I
40:22
Speaker 1: think that that people like the idea. I think we
40:28
Speaker 1: all like stories about folks that that sort of win,
40:31
Speaker 1: can win a battle by their wits, you know what
40:33
Speaker 1: I mean, That people that can kind of outsmart their competition,
40:37
Speaker 1: and in that sense, I think people like the idea
40:38
Speaker 1: of a sharp player or smart gambler, or somebody who's
40:41
Speaker 1: like really skilled at playing a certain game and can
40:43
Speaker 1: win against their opponents or win against the casino or whatever.
40:45
Speaker 1: I think people like those kinds of stories. I think
40:49
Speaker 1: that gambling, though, is about more than just having some
40:53
Speaker 1: fun and maybe you win and maybe you lose. What
40:54
Speaker 1: the heck, you know? I think that it's a game.
40:56
Speaker 1: We're playing a game. I mean, when you sit down
40:58
Speaker 1: and play a game, there's rules, you learn the rules,
41:00
Speaker 1: and you want to try to figure out how to
41:01
Speaker 1: play the game. Is best that you can't give yourself
41:03
Speaker 1: your best chance of winning. I mean we say that
41:06
Speaker 1: it's fun, and it is, but it's like it's it's
41:07
Speaker 1: not like people are playing basketball on a basketball court
41:10
Speaker 1: in the NBA. There we can say them, hey, it's
41:12
Speaker 1: just fun, you know. I mean, it's just fun. You win,
41:14
Speaker 1: you lose, you had a good time. It's basketball. You
41:15
Speaker 1: should go into with your eyes open and know that
41:17
Speaker 1: you could lose the game. But they're passionate about it
41:19
Speaker 1: because they want to win, and their desire to win
41:22
Speaker 1: makes them want to be as good at it as
41:23
Speaker 1: they possibly can. I think we all can relate to that.
41:26
Speaker 1: We're not all going to be sharp sports players, you
41:28
Speaker 1: know what I mean, But what we do all want
41:29
Speaker 1: to believe is that a sharp sports player can exist,
41:32
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I'm never going to be
41:33
Speaker 1: a sharp player, but I don't want to believe that
41:36
Speaker 1: someone can't be a sharp player because it's all so
41:38
Speaker 1: rigged against them. I want to believe that somebody can.
41:40
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think is crazy
41:42
Speaker 1: about what the way the industry is approaching this, and
41:44
Speaker 1: I've said this in a couple of different interviews, is
41:46
Speaker 1: that this is an opportunity that I think that the
41:49
Speaker 1: the sort of burgeoning sports betting industry the United States
41:52
Speaker 1: is missing out on, and that is to market the sports,
41:54
Speaker 1: uh the professional sports better the sharp players market them
41:57
Speaker 1: the way Poker did with their players. If I'm a
42:00
Speaker 1: recreational sports better, I may want to aspire to be
42:03
Speaker 1: one of those guys. It may take me years to
42:05
Speaker 1: be as good as they are. It may take years
42:07
Speaker 1: of losing, you know what I mean. I may never
42:09
Speaker 1: actually get to where I can be a winner, winning player,
42:11
Speaker 1: but having that sort of north start to follow, to
42:13
Speaker 1: know that someone is winning motivates me? Instead, what does
42:16
Speaker 1: sports books do? They It's like some sucker walks in
42:19
Speaker 1: and makes some crazy team parlay and wins it, and
42:22
Speaker 1: then they give them this giant check and like that's
42:24
Speaker 1: how what they're saying, see this could be you. You
42:26
Speaker 1: could be the lucky jackpot winner. That doesn't motivate me.
42:28
Speaker 1: What motivates me is to see somebody who came in
42:31
Speaker 1: and like did their homework, was smart, knew a lot
42:33
Speaker 1: about sports, understood numbers, and was able to win over
42:36
Speaker 1: the long run. That's what I think most people. That's
42:38
Speaker 1: your long term players. That's what you want is people
42:40
Speaker 1: who are going to approach the game that way. And
42:42
Speaker 1: if you don't market people who are successful at it,
42:44
Speaker 1: then you don't give anybody an example of somebody who
42:46
Speaker 1: can be. The only examples we have is these like
42:48
Speaker 1: you know, these these like big big check parlay winners.
42:51
Speaker 1: We don't everybody else. They want to push the kick
42:53
Speaker 1: those guys out of the casino as fast as they can.
42:55
Speaker 1: I think they're missing a huge opportunity to market those players,
42:57
Speaker 1: turn them into celebrities. Let's and David. It is an epic, sweeping, layered,
43:04
Speaker 1: complex story about a subject we love. All of our
43:08
Speaker 1: listeners listen, they should go read it because it's amazing.
43:11
Speaker 1: So again it's it's long, it's worth it, like, it's
43:15
Speaker 1: totally worth it. Again, Um, go google the story. Just
43:20
Speaker 1: type in David Hill the Ringer, Uh, Spanky, Uh, You're
43:25
Speaker 1: gonna love it. And I feel like that's a better
43:27
Speaker 1: way to describe to tell people to go find the
43:29
Speaker 1: story than to like say, go to Ringer dot com
43:33
Speaker 1: and you know, give them the title of the story.
43:35
Speaker 1: The story might not be in the front page of
43:37
Speaker 1: the website anymore. Where you just put those terms in,
43:40
Speaker 1: it's going to come right to the top. It's a
43:41
Speaker 1: better sort of homepage. Well done. Yeah, thank you, great work.
43:45
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see what you do next. I
43:47
Speaker 1: appreciate that guy. All right. This has been the favorites
43:52
Speaker 1: from the Action Network. Download rate, Subscribe, review, Apple Podcasts,
43:59
Speaker 1: Radio dot com, slash the Action Network Until next time.
44:05
Speaker 1: I love you, love your black Cat, Love you too.