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S2 Ep 9: Futility Dreams - Q & A Part 2 · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
• 0:17
  of gender and
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
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  SPEAKER_03: In this episode,
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  we answer questions from listeners who feel they're working
• 0:42
  tirelessly at the
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: attachment with their trans-identified children,
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: and it's not working to create the deep bonds they yearn for.
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  How do we continue to invest our hearts and souls into this
• 0:54
  work when we're not
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  SPEAKER_03: experiencing the hoped for return on our efforts?
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  SPEAKER_03: This is part two of this Q&A set,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: and we'll be back with more listener questions in the next episode.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Back with some more Q&A.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great to see you and it's great to reconnect.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 1:15
  a huge thank you to all of our listeners for those of you who
• 1:20
  submitted questions
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: and just all of you who are out there.
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  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we appreciate you being open.
• 1:34
  to this content and to being willing to try new things takes a
• 1:38
  lot of courage and a
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: lot of consciousness yep so we do appreciate you yep absolutely
• 1:47
  So what we have found is that we have quite a few questions,
• 1:54
  which is wonderful.
• 1:57
  But we do want to just kind of mention as we get started that
• 2:00
  we probably aren't
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: going to cover all of the questions in our second Q&A episode.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: If we do, it'll be a surprise to us.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you find that your question hasn't been addressed yet,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: at the end of this episode,
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  SPEAKER_00: please don't despair.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to cover all of the questions we've received.
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  But we may actually end up needing or it's very likely that
• 2:26
  we're going to need
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  SPEAKER_00: three episodes to do so.
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  SPEAKER_00: So hang in there.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: If we don't address your question today, we are going to address it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Before we jump to Q&A, we talked about sharing this celebration.
• 2:40
  And I have gotten permission from this mom to share this
• 2:43
  celebration in this episode.
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  And this is really fun to be able to get to read this and
• 2:49
  celebrate with this mom
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  who is applying some of this information that we've been
• 2:54
  sharing through Attachment
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  SPEAKER_03: Matters.
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  SPEAKER_03: She says,
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  SPEAKER_03: on Tuesday,
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  our TI daughter texted saying that we failed to ask how it's
• 3:01
  going in her community
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  with ICE roundups and people scared in her community when we
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  briefly talked on
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  SPEAKER_03: Father's Day.
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  She's going door to door using her Spanish and talking to
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  people about their rights.
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  SPEAKER_03: She wanted money for more flyers.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: I told her I admire her big heart and willingness to go door to door,
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  SPEAKER_03: but in so many words,
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  SPEAKER_03: this is her thing,
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  SPEAKER_03: not ours to support.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so...
• 3:23
  first celebration right there for mom setting her boundaries
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  but warmly and in a
• 3:28
  caring way you know um and then she goes on to say so after
• 3:35
  listening to the latest
• 3:36
  attachment matters about priming the pump to help her see that
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  she's grappling with
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  SPEAKER_03: two emotions at the same time which is a fruit of maturity i texted her
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  I recognize that you must be feeling proud of yourself and your
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  hard work this
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  SPEAKER_03: semester at City College,
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  as well as sadness and how your community is being impacted by
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  government policies
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  SPEAKER_03: and your neighbors feeling scared.
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  SPEAKER_03: I see that.
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  SPEAKER_03: We love you.
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  SPEAKER_03: She responded in less than five minutes.
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  SPEAKER_03: Love you too.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for that.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then the mom goes on to say, I jumped up and did a happy dance.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Rose and Stoic Mom.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I am hearing some mixing.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Some modeling, you know, on the one hand.
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  SPEAKER_02: Modeling some integration here.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it just,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  we might get more into this as we go into our next questions in
• 4:31
  this episode.
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  SPEAKER_00: But this might be a good, what can I say?
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  SPEAKER_00: A good model almost of when we say this word detachment,
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  SPEAKER_00: which can mean so many different things.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  What I notice in this celebration,
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  in this example,
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  is that mom,
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  you know,
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  set that boundary.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, mom, you know, shares with us here.
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  SPEAKER_00: We didn't read it word for word,
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  but that she does feel irritated when her daughter reaches out
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  asking for money
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  SPEAKER_00: because they don't,
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  SPEAKER_00: she doesn't reach out a lot.
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  But when she does,
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  if there's that ask there,
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  it's kind of like,
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  this is,
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  this sucks.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, she didn't say that, but I'm just using that word.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is irritating.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: However,
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  SPEAKER_00: the way she presented to her daughter was like a simple,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: honey,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is your cause to support, not ours.
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  And then she that's like that's that model of sort of that when
• 5:26
  we use that word
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  SPEAKER_00: detachment,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's kind of like just putting a little that boundary,
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  SPEAKER_00: that distance there where you can see and honor your child and.
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  SPEAKER_00: But you don't have to be wrapped up in it.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can hold some space to see and honor,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: their reality or what they care about,
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  SPEAKER_00: what they have approached you with,
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  SPEAKER_00: but kind of have that enough emotional space.
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  awareness that that you don't have to get entangled in it does
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  that make sense so
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  it's you know and then moving from there to say you know hey on
• 6:03
  the one hand you
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  got all a's amazing job you must be so proud on the other hand
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  how hard this must
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  be to witness um you know what's happening to your neighbors
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  and be so scared you
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  SPEAKER_00: know um so
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes,
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  SPEAKER_03: and I'm realizing I did leave out an important line there,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: too,
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  SPEAKER_03: about her texting her grades.
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  SPEAKER_03: She had received all A's from City College,
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  SPEAKER_03: and that's what her mom was referencing when she said,
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  I recognize you must be feeling proud of yourself and your hard
• 6:40
  work this semester.
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  SPEAKER_03: And taking the opportunity,
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  SPEAKER_03: too,
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  SPEAKER_03: if I might,
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  SPEAKER_03: to paint this picture of her heart,
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  SPEAKER_03: too,
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  SPEAKER_03: like holding this story of her.
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  being passionate about this cause and taking action and
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  acknowledging that.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: There's lots of good stuff in this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's helpful to listeners for me to,
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  SPEAKER_00: to frame it in that sense of detachment.
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  SPEAKER_00: But that's kind of the, the, some of the power of what I see here.
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  SPEAKER_00: is just being able to reflect back her daughter's experience,
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  SPEAKER_00: pull those mixed emotions in,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it is taking that alpha role where you're able to just say,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey,
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  SPEAKER_00: I see what's going on for you here,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it must be both wonderful and very challenging.
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  SPEAKER_00: to have these two things going on at the same time.
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  SPEAKER_00: But in the background,
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  we know mom is just overjoyed when her daughter responds
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  positively and tells her
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  SPEAKER_00: she loves her too,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know.
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  SPEAKER_00: So just what a wonderful example,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I do feel like it does give life to,
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  SPEAKER_00: in a concrete way,
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  SPEAKER_00: so many of the themes that we've been discussing.
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  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  And just a shout out and gratitude again for that mom giving us
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  permission to share.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
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  SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful celebration.
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  SPEAKER_00: Keep up the good work.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And for those listening to,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're going to move into some,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: some of the questions at this point.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I do just want to say,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: at any time,
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  SPEAKER_00: you all as our listeners are willing to share a celebration.
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  Whether it's directly through the Stoic Mom community or for
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  paid subscribers,
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  SPEAKER_00: you can use that same Q&A form.
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  Maybe we'll open up other ways for people to do it directly
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  instead of posting
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  SPEAKER_00: publicly on the show comments or the substat comments.
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  But we love,
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  we would love to hear more of these and be able to share them
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  too with listeners.
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  Ways that you might have applied things that you've taken from
• 9:09
  the podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: What have the results been?
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  SPEAKER_00: What are your reflections?
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: these,
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  SPEAKER_00: these moments,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it takes me back to season one,
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  SPEAKER_00: like that golden moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that there's a lot of strife.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that it's not always a celebration.
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  SPEAKER_00: But these moments are so precious.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well,
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  SPEAKER_03: and to hear it in practice,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: and to get the experience of somebody who is trying something new.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then to get such a heartwarming response,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: for her daughter,
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  SPEAKER_03: to have her daughter reflect back the softness,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: and express that she feels seen,
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  SPEAKER_03: which is what I get in the daughter's response there.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Softening.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's just helpful,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: to have real concrete examples of what this looks like in real life.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a great idea for us to think of a way,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: for listeners to submit those.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: So that's something we'll work on.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:25
  So we're going to be moving on to a question that has multiple
• 10:31
  parts to it.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to do our best to kind of paraphrase,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: read it,
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: but paraphrase a bit and,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: try to kind of tackle the different aspects of it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: piece by piece.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if we have time,
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  we're going to move from that question to a couple of the other
• 10:52
  pending questions.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to see how it goes.
• 10:57
  So I'm going to read,
• 10:59
  start reading this question that was submitted by a subscriber.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: couple of questions or themes that have come up for me.
• 11:09
  I wonder if you could explain more how you continue to build
• 11:13
  attachment to your
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: child while remaining detached from the outcome.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: acceptance of the situation but not affirming it,
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: grieving what was and will be lost,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: while trying to find a new life for yourself.
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  This all leads to detaching from your child so you can emerge
• 11:36
  from the pain and
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: grief,
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  SPEAKER_00: but not in the same way that young adults are supposed to individuate.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes more like estrangement with connection,
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  SPEAKER_00: shallow conversations and unsaid truths,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: constant sadness,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: self-preservation.
• 11:56
  I waffle between feeling like attachment theory has made me a
• 12:01
  better parent,
• 12:02
  but also feeling a bit betrayed by it since the bonds we have
• 12:08
  been so tirelessly
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: trying to nurture can't overcome this one thing.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: But perhaps Neufeld would say that it is the wrong way to look at it?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to stop there.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a second part to the question, but maybe we can just...
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Start with this.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 12:32
  it goes back to how to continue to build attachment to your
• 12:35
  child while remaining
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: detached from the outcome.
• 12:37
  And I think a lot of what comes after that is just what I feel
• 12:40
  from this mom is
• 12:41
  reflecting kind of her own thoughts and experiences grappling
• 12:45
  with this already.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: And with so much of the language,
• 12:51
  I just want to acknowledge she's clearly been paying attention
• 12:57
  to this content and
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: is able to reflect and apply a lot of it to what she's experiencing.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: It seems like she recognizes what's needed in a lot of ways.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Talking about building attachments
• 13:18
  while remaining detached from the outcome you know talking
• 13:20
  about acceptance of the
• 13:21
  situation but not affirming it you know she mentions grief
• 13:27
  which is such an
• 13:28
  important part of this grieving what we don't get to have
• 13:32
  grieving what's been lost
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: um
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this line more like estrangement with connection.
• 13:42
  And I would say this is something that I'm seeing as a common
• 13:47
  theme where it feels
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: to mom like the relationship is superficial.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they're working so hard.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: to strengthen the bonds.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: And yet, you know, it might feel stilted or effortful.
• 14:06
  And there's always this elephant in the room that's not getting
• 14:09
  acknowledged.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so it doesn't feel like genuine deep connection.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: That makes so much sense.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: That makes so much sense, truly.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to acknowledge to this,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: what the feeling or the,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 14:29
  I'd say the feeling sense that that leaves her with is feeling
• 14:34
  a bit betrayed.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, by this attachment work.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it makes so much sense.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: It makes so much sense.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having so many thoughts right now,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I think the first thing I want to say,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: so I don't forget to say it,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: is just remembering,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: that six-stage model of attachment.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:10
  And so what you're speaking to when you say so many moms are
• 15:13
  experiencing this
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: idea,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: this relationship is superficial.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that, you know, is likely reflective of reality, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: That may be the reality of your relationship right now, right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps it wasn't in the past.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it is right now, potentially.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever, okay?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it is, I think, a good thing to have that awareness, you know?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: It does not mean that you can't still have attachment.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: For you,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:01
  I think the work is to try to nurture what is there to help
• 16:12
  facilitate your child
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: to continue to attach to you,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's superficial,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 16:19
  even if it's superficial,
• 16:20
  so going back to the senses,
• 16:24
  sameness,
• 16:27
  you know,
• 16:28
  coming alongside.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So in our celebration example that we just read out loud,
• 16:34
  that mother was able to come alongside her daughter with both
• 16:38
  celebrating her
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: feelings of being proud of her achievements,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: but also her,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: anguish,
• 16:46
  over,
• 16:46
  you know,
• 16:47
  how she sees the political situation happening right now.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of taking the side of your child.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, the feeling of valuing, etc.
• 16:58
  So it's in terms of that fourth stage of attachment,
• 17:00
  mattering,
• 17:02
  having value.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: we know the coming alongside and the loyalty,
• 17:08
  the taking the side of the being the same at all of these are
• 17:12
  challenged by a trans
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: identified child.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you not affirming.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: There is just going to be an inherent tension there.
• 17:22
  And depending on sort of the depth or lack of depth of how your
• 17:29
  child is feeling
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: attached to you at any given moment in time with this conflict...
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: you may or may not be able to, they may or may not feel valued.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: They may or may not feel you are on their side.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's, it's such an incredible challenge.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's just such an incredible challenge.
• 17:56
  So the way that you can continue to work,
• 18:01
  even if it is the most simple superficial levels,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: of sending a text message,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: is there any way that you can get,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: as we've said before,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: some play involved in the system of your relationship to your child?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not just the transactional or the punitive, but some warmth, some spark.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Is there any way that you can get that even at those
• 18:32
  superficial levels of being
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: with being in touch or,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: being the same as sharing something in common,
• 18:44
  even if you can't share the trans identification and coming
• 18:47
  along with that in
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: common.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just trying to reflect on the superficiality.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: This may be the reality right now.
• 18:56
  How can you still work those superficial levels the best you
• 19:00
  can to maintain the relationship?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of the first piece I wanted to say.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I find myself really curious.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: And looking over this question again,
• 19:16
  I'm curious about proximity in this situation and whether the
• 19:20
  son is at home.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:23
  You know,
• 19:23
  I think sometimes that sense of superficiality can get
• 19:28
  magnified.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, totally.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: When a young adult child is still at home.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: and parents are working so hard to keep those bonds tight,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: but it's just kind of up in their face all the time.
• 19:43
  You know,
• 19:43
  this disconnect with,
• 19:46
  which I completely agree with you,
• 19:48
  is just...
• 19:49
  it's um it's it's part of what we're dealing with right it's
• 19:54
  just you can't really
• 19:56
  get around that if you're not going to affirm there's going to
• 19:58
  be this disconnect
• 19:59
  if you're dealing with somebody with a trans identity yeah a
• 20:03
  young adult child with
• 20:03
  that so i just i'm really curious about that and would want to
• 20:08
  highlight that you
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: know that
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: If he's at home,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: that could just make this seem even more intense or just,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: more felt,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: a more felt sense of that superficiality.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think this is also quite normal.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:29
  among young adults for the relationship to be more superficial
• 20:35
  to to not feel as
• 20:37
  tight as it did when they were young you know as they are out
• 20:41
  figuring out who they
• 20:42
  are in the world you know that it's that this is i i think it's
• 20:47
  it's fairly normal
• 20:48
  fairly common you know and something that tends tends to change
• 20:54
  as your your adult
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: children mature
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And they have more experience in the world.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they return, I think, to that more...
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: Depth, a relationship with more depth with the parents.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense to me.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld does talk about in his adolescence material that,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: this rite of passage,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: this bridge of adolescence.
• 21:21
  And I'm using that term kind of generally because I'm not going
• 21:24
  to put an age to it per se.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not just talking about 12-year-olds.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about that whole experience of transitioning.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: From childhood to adulthood.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: For those who do mature, you know, who who take up the challenge.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:40
  There is going to be a sense of separation from parents during
• 21:46
  that period,
• 21:49
  partially because.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Attachment is sexualized in adolescence.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: So some of the physical proximity,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: some of the things that the attachment at the senses,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: between a mother and a son or a father and a daughter,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: there are changes that happen.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: open up this separation and this sense of,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: of,
• 22:11
  of shifting of attachment during that period that is just part
• 22:15
  of what it is.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: so yeah,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to kind of say,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: that makes a lot of sense to me what you're saying.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: And, and, and speaks to that felt sense of estrangement.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so.
• 22:37
  I always want us to be mindful of that because our language is
• 22:42
  so powerful.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just thinking of that more like estrangement with connection.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:56
  And I guess my point is just being really conscious of the
• 22:59
  stories we're telling ourselves.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: so that we're not reinforcing that sense of estrangement.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: and I wanted to come back around to this,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: what you spoke to earlier about the sense of betrayal.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say that is so real, you know, and, um,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel that in a, let's say, less high stakes way so often.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've spoken to this in past conversations.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I have done so much.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've put in so much work.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm holding so much for my child.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no reciprocity,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: despite all of my efforts to care and nurture and make things work.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: and in this case,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: it's,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:51
  this mom talking about we've worked tirelessly to nurture this
• 23:56
  attachment.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: With more information, probably even more so, but it's not working.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Our son has still chosen this path that terrifies us.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just it's even more elevated that sense of,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't want to put words in her mouth,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: but the sense of I have done so much.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I've invested my heart and soul.
• 24:25
  in you as my child and i can do nothing and and this is what
• 24:31
  happens in return
• 24:32
  almost you know like and i i i'm not saying she's saying that
• 24:37
  but i can imagine
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: feeling that way i could imagine feeling that sense of betrayal um
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And especially if I'm continuing to,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: which everyone is,
• 24:49
  walk the maze of the yearning for our child to reach their full
• 24:55
  potential,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: to be in relationship with us and be able to depend and be connected.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not working.
• 25:05
  I'm hitting walls over and over and over again,
• 25:09
  whether they are of my own doing or my child's
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: not wanting the intimacy or connection or listening to my concerns,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it may be.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: it can be,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:26
  in the next section of her question is just talking about this
• 25:29
  experience of
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: incredible futility.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I also, I want, I'm wondering if this is the place for it, but
• 25:45
  First,
• 25:45
  I want to notice again that she's saying she feels betrayed by
• 25:48
  attachment theory.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Attachment information.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's the sense I get is.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm doing all the things.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't overcome this one thing.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to point that out, too, you know, that this.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: the identity can end up being the symbol.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: Of all that is wrong in the relationship.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that, that's not always, that can be an unhelpful, uh, thought.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Narrative.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I just, I wanted to highlight those two things in there.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because then now we're dealing with an enemy,
• 26:38
  I think maybe is one reason I want to caution and maybe look at
• 26:44
  that and maybe
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: offer a different way to think about it because,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: and I think we have spoken to the futility of it.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this is in your home, right?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: We are dealing with this thing,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: but it can feel like then we do have to fight that thing.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:05
  that thing that is coming between me and my child yeah so thank
• 27:09
  you for kind of
• 27:11
  pausing us on that because I do think it takes us back to the
• 27:14
  original question how
• 27:18
  to continue to build attachment to your child while remaining
• 27:22
  detached from the
• 27:23
  outcome so so maybe there is some letting go needed my child is
• 27:31
  trans identified he
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: has chosen to medicalize
• 27:36
  You know,
• 27:39
  and then shifting out of the relentless work to try to stop the
• 27:49
  medicalization.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: whatever kind of emotional process needs to be gone through to say,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't stop this.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't stop it.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And now this is the path that he has chosen.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because then for me,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: the goal becomes the relationship,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: and the rest is letting go of control over that peace,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: as hard as it can be.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: As devastating as it can be.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 28:46
  It's bringing to mind another question in this set,
• 28:49
  but maybe we continue with this one.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: just the second half,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: this question goes on to say,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: holding the cognitive dissonance,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: but not owning it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can you elaborate on this?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: As a parent,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to accept the situation,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: parentheses,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: carrying all the grief and sadness and illogic of gender ideology,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I do not affirm the identity,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: parentheses,
• 29:21
  still trying to encourage stopping or slowing down the
• 29:23
  medicalization to give him
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: time to mature.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I am that wall of futility just as my son is my wall.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Two examples.
• 29:33
  If my husband offered to pay to bank our son's sperm to protect
• 29:36
  him from the
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: possible profound regret of sterilization,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: but I push back and say if that is important to our son,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: he should pay for it as it's a consequence of an action he is taking.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is that punitive or is that parenting?
• 29:51
  I have told my son it is up to him to talk to family members
• 29:54
  about what he is doing
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: because it is his story,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: his path,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: and I want to give him the freedom to change his mind.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: But again,
• 30:01
  I feel like having those hard conversations with other family
• 30:04
  members is a
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: consequence of actions and part of growing up.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you mean by my holding it but not owning it?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Am I encouraging maturation or am I damaging the attachment?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then which brings me to my last question,
• 30:21
  how can a parent trust in nature's design that all humans
• 30:25
  mature if their child's
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: actions mean they may never mature?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Nature's design is that all humans are designed to mature.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Not that all humans mature.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: Correct?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: it's like the spontaneous but not inevitable,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: that concept of like we all have the potential,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: but for many that potential is not fully realized.
• 31:02
  That it's not that ages and stages,
• 31:04
  okay,
• 31:04
  at this age you become more mature.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's our potential.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: So is she encouraging maturation or damaging the attachment?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just going to speak off the cuff here, and this is just me.
• 31:30
  I want to encourage this mom to get out of the consequence for
• 31:37
  actions mode.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I worry that that is...
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: that that is a place that's not going to encourage kind of like that,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: the softness,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: the warmth,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: the play.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just going to repeat that just in case we need to repeat it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want to encourage this subscriber to try to see,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: which I think you are by writing this question,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know, this paradigm of consequences for actions.
• 32:24
  And while it can be useful at times,
• 32:26
  I don't want to just throw it out completely.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think my concern is that it is kind of that north wind
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: that idea of that Aesop's fable of the north wind and the sun,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: that when we get into that mode,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: we kind of get into that stuck,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: what I would call like that,
• 32:47
  just that entrenched north wind where we just want to blow and
• 32:53
  blow and blow to try
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: to get the action to change.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, go ahead.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately,
• 33:10
  I haven't heard everything you've said because the technology
• 33:13
  is glitching a little
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: bit for me.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm finding myself wanting to push back a little bit.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: Only in that she's not imposing consequences.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 33:29
  What I'm seeing here is allowing the natural consequences of
• 33:33
  those choices.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Which I think could sometimes be helpful.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just how,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: maybe how do we,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: can we be the angel of comfort when he's having,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: when he's up against or facing some of these natural consequences?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: and I think it does come down to a boundaries thing that,
• 34:10
  that in my mind is more about her and her husband determining
• 34:16
  what their boundaries
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: are with this.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Is that making sense?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: What are, what are we okay with doing?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: What's more important to us?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, is it preserving that?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: his potential to have children in the future.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: and that's where I can see then thinking through,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: do we allow the natural consequence here?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Or are we invested in his fertility?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: And let that help you make that decision.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: Rather than
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: and she says this, am I encouraging maturity?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think is what is coming to mind about,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: shouldn't he pay for it because this is his choice,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: and this is where that detachment comes in again,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: So what are you invested in?
• 35:17
  And if you are invested in his,
• 35:19
  his future fertility,
• 35:20
  then it's,
• 35:21
  I think,
• 35:25
  then you pitch in.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: This is really more of what,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:31
  what are my values and what are my boundaries rather than
• 35:36
  letting him learn the
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: lesson.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: A minute ago,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I hope we delete everything I just said because I felt so bad about it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: But where you just came to was so good that everyone forgive me.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I that's exactly I couldn't have said it better.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't have said it better, you know, and you're right.
• 36:04
  So it is kind of feeling out inside of yourself to the best of
• 36:08
  your ability.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Am I trying to teach a lesson versus am I clear about my boundaries and
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe that's kind of the teasing out here.
• 36:27
  So I very much appreciate you saying,
• 36:29
  hey,
• 36:30
  this is about having boundaries.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if that is what it is,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: that is totally up to the parents to determine their values.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And how to do that in a loving way, saying no.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: versus is it coming from that kind of entrenched feeling of like,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I want him to learn a lesson,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so that's a beautiful question.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is this punitive or is it parenting?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: What does it feel like inside of you?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:09
  Cause my,
• 37:10
  the other question I have here,
• 37:11
  this sounds like it's her husband's idea.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: Potentially.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: That this isn't the child asking for this.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not likely something he's even.
• 37:27
  Well,
• 37:27
  I don't know whether he's thinking about it or not,
• 37:30
  but it's hard to say.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it sounds like dad's trying to be proactive.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: On something that he cares about.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: The dad.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I probably land,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: without knowing,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: being in the situation in my sense,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I probably land more with the dad on this one,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: just personally.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: But this is just because of my own experience and how...
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: How much of a gift it has been to have children,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: so it's like that's where my heart just immediately goes is,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: wanting to help my child,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: protect my child,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: make this work for them,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 38:30
  But I can also understand if together you would determine that
• 38:35
  this is not what
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to do,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: that you are not,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: that you're going to have a boundary around that.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's, those are tough conversations too, between the parents.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to lift up the profound regret,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: that this is also something we can't protect our children from.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 39:06
  I mean,
• 39:07
  in this case,
• 39:08
  there is this potential to do this thing to help protect.
• 39:11
  But ultimately,
• 39:13
  there is going to be profound regret in some form or another.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:19
  as a result often of this medicalization there's going you know
• 39:23
  there's a good
• 39:24
  chance of profound regret down the down the road yeah yeah
• 39:29
  exactly yeah what comes
• 39:32
  to me is just again going back to the original question
• 39:36
  building the attachment
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: detachment from outcome it's um
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: It is this dance of,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: even with the idea of the experience of profound regret,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: that we know that this could be coming,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: that it's likely that it might,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: but that we can't ultimately save our child from that either.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just like we couldn't stop the medicalization.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 40:12
  we're not going to be able to stop that wall of futility from
• 40:15
  settling in if and
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: when it does in the future.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, it is important to do exactly like you said.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Have that discussion with your husband.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: What are our values?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: What are we willing to do?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are we not willing to do?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And really try to get the best sense internally that you can.
• 40:37
  where am I coming from on this what's moving me emotionally
• 40:46
  when I'm trying to
• 40:48
  figure out this decision and to be you know it's like kind of
• 40:57
  be to be try to be
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: okay with
• 41:02
  Saying this is,
• 41:03
  you know,
• 41:04
  I,
• 41:04
  if it's not feeling punitive,
• 41:06
  you know,
• 41:07
  this is my boundary.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: These are my values.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: if you do it,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: or if you don't,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: if you decide to say no,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: that we're not going to offer to pay for this.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I agree.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: She's asked herself the right question there.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: Is this punitive or is this parenting?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: And punitive, you'll have a good sense if you tune into yourself.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And kind of, yeah, really feeling out.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: What am I hoping for from this?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: What am I what am I able to live with?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: if I offer to pay for this,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: is my sense of betrayal going to increase versus,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: I will be able to let go.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Whether or not, you know, the sperm is ever used in the future.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Whether my son is ever grateful for it in the future.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what kind of resentment.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Detachment too.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 42:19
  am I able to make this decision and remember that I was fully
• 42:26
  responsible for my
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: own decision?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: and let go of what he does or does not do with it in the future.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Make it a values-based decision.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: That is not attached to outcome.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or what he does with it.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that might help feel out the answer, you know?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 43:05
  Basically to say,
• 43:06
  regardless of what he does with this,
• 43:08
  this felt right to us.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's that, again, that's that alpha position.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And no matter what the decision is, you own it.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Did we answer the last question?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: How can a parent trust in nature's design?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think so.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we kind of clarified that, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: Not all humans will mature.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: If their child's actions mean they may never mature.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Does she mean that he's stunting his biological maturity?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: Through medicalization?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious about that.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Without knowing more, yeah.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry.
• 44:10
  I was just going to...
• 44:11
  One thing I was going to say to that is it's never too late.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 44:15
  You know,
• 44:17
  there might be harm to his physical form,
• 44:22
  but emotional maturity is always possible.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely believe that.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I... Yeah, me too.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly...
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I've probably said this already in past episodes,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: but when I look at some of the detransitioner stories,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: it is tragic.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: But what I see is that this was their maturation process.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: This was hitting that futility, finding those tears, grieving that.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: forgiving themselves,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: all of,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm not saying that everybody is able to do this as a result,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: but some have,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: some have,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: walked this path and come out of it having it grown them up.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it is a, it doesn't take away from the tragedy.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: It makes me think of like a drunk driving accident or something similar,
• 45:46
  where we make a decision we wish we could take back and there
• 45:52
  are permanent
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: consequences to it.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is not an uncommon occurrence.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it often is, like you said, the thing that becomes our crucible.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: The thing that matures us.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes even leads us to our gifts.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: And our contribution.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it has for some, for sure.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 46:27
  And I just,
• 46:28
  I think about the,
• 46:30
  again,
• 46:30
  going back to this,
• 46:32
  what we can and can't control.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not just in this world of trans identified young people,
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: sons and daughters,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: but in general,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: In our relationships to our children and to each other,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: there is so much that,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: we cannot control.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: going back to that sense of feeling betrayed by attachment theory,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: it's like the reality is,
• 47:04
  and I do hear people speak to this kind of time and time again
• 47:07
  in the Neufeld
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: classes that I've taken of this profound grief.
• 47:14
  when we do experience the futility of having done everything
• 47:18
  right quote unquote
• 47:21
  but yet ultimately our child is a separate being and we can't
• 47:29
  we we aren't inside
• 47:30
  of them to be the one unfolding you know ultimately you know
• 47:39
  all those little
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: chicks got a peck out of those eggs
• 47:43
  You know,
• 47:44
  and it is,
• 47:45
  again,
• 47:45
  profound grief,
• 47:47
  profound,
• 47:49
  you know,
• 47:49
  sadness if our child does not.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: reciprocate the attachment,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: does not,
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: mature and unfold and reach their full potential,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: has,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: all these challenging life experiences.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that we can just make all of that sadness go away.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is profoundly challenging.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, it is not something we get to determine.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean we stop doing what we're doing.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: It takes me back to my, I've probably spoken to this, my stepmother.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's who came to mind as you were saying that.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Her mantra at this point with my,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: my young sister-in-law,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: who's had a lot of challenge,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: is I signed on for this.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to keep loving her unconditionally with boundaries.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 49:02
  You know,
• 49:03
  with so much hard walls of futility of what she can and cannot
• 49:09
  do to help her.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't mean she's walking away.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it is, yeah, like that, that's the sort of alpha thing too.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_03: And the...
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: The crucible of parenting and what it demands of us.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to acknowledge,
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_03: and she doesn't really say this,
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_03: and maybe she's not experiencing this,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: but the escape fantasies that are also a common experience,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: that I also...
• 49:46
  experienced many times just wanting to run away yeah when
• 49:52
  things weren't working
• 49:53
  for me yeah and when when it felt like the relationship was not
• 49:56
  being reciprocated
• 49:57
  yeah you know and that sense of betrayal yeah what is happening
• 50:04
  i worked so hard
• 50:07
  on these relationships and I'm not feeling the reciprocation or
• 50:12
  any appreciation or
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: any,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: any sense of being seen at all for the work that I have put into this.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it, it's hard to persevere through that.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so hard.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 50:32
  And I don't know if that does kind of take us to one of the
• 50:35
  other questions.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the one I'm thinking of, oh, go ahead, jump in.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no, you go.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just looking at the time thinking we can squeeze in one more.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: We can do this, Rose.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got two options here.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: One is,
• 50:51
  but the one that I'm leaning towards based on what you just
• 50:54
  reflected on is the
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: question that says,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: to what extent,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: if any,
• 50:58
  would you share with your child what his or her transition has
• 51:01
  created in your
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: life?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do this by invitation only,
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: or is there a place to express our own grief or resentment without being
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: specifically asked?
• 51:12
  I feel like I cannot shake these feelings despite years of
• 51:14
  trying and want to
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: express them,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: even just to have them out in the air.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Despite feeling like it won't have any tangible effect on anything,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: there's a big part of me that wants her to hear part of my experience.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then I wonder whether loved,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: held,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: guided,
• 51:32
  and never alone goals compel me to keep my thoughts and
• 51:36
  feelings to myself unless
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: solicited.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: I am having a lot of my life matters to moments,
• 51:46
  and they are definitely making me feel like I want to pull away
• 51:49
  from my kid.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where does my experience fit into our relationship?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: I doubt it will help strengthen attachment,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: but I feel so invisible and resentful shoving this down all the time.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there it is in the end.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I feel so invisible and resentful.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Unseen.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_03: For everything she's putting into this.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no, I didn't.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: You go.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to take that up.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry for this.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_03: And take a breath there.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's okay.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a on the one hand and on the other hand, in response to this.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to say on the one hand,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: my initial response is to be total alpha,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: total Neufeld and say,
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: Alphas don't, we don't show our feelings.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: We don't expect to be taken care of by our child,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: even if they're an adult,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: don't share.
• 53:22
  And I think about my own parents who went through incredible
• 53:26
  strife and difficulty with me.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when we healed our relationship, they never shared it with me.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: They just, they just didn't.
• 53:39
  they haven't you know they've talked about sadness forgiveness
• 53:41
  all of these things
• 53:42
  but we've never gone into the weeds so that's on my on the one
• 53:47
  hand on the other
• 53:49
  hand you know i entered this recording session today sharing
• 53:53
  with you about all of
• 53:56
  the frustrations i'm having you know today with my own children
• 54:00
  and you know
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm feeling the rawness of this.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling the rawness of this in myself and how challenging it is.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so on the other hand,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: part of me wants to say,
• 54:16
  there's going to be times when you have to say something where
• 54:20
  you're not going to
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: keep it in.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's not an intimate heart to heart and,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: bring out the Hallmark movie and the Kleenex.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just you've reached your limit.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to say something like, this is not working for me.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is in that moment where you just have to,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: this isn't getting in the weeds per se,
• 54:50
  but it is about sometimes we do have to say something and draw
• 54:58
  a line or set a
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: boundary or express that frustration.
• 55:03
  And so I hope this is not too frustrating of a response,
• 55:07
  but I am feeling just because of my own
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: My own experience of, like, I'm not always able to keep it in.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm experiencing that all the time right now,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: in these day-to-day dynamics with my kids.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, you know.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I want to lift up.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like you are...
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to use the word triggered, but I will.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about situations where you're activated.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: And there's frustration in the system.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_03: It needs to come out.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it's going to come out around your kids.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to go back to something you said earlier in the episode.
• 55:58
  You said,
• 55:58
  quote,
• 55:59
  unquote,
• 55:59
  I'm glad you used,
• 56:00
  quote,
• 56:00
  unquote,
• 56:01
  do everything right.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because the bottom line is you're not going to.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: And not only is that okay, it's important.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: We are humans and our kids need us to model a human experience.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: So there's that.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: And also, I just think...
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm hearing something maybe a little bit different here that she's,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: she's wants to plan a conversation potentially where she wants to share.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: What's happening.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: I would still agree with you,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: but I would,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: I would have a couple of caveats here,
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: Think about what you're expecting in response.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you feel like you must say this, then say it.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, but just I would consider your expectations.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 57:10
  and not expect that your child is going to respond in the way
• 57:14
  you wish or hope she
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_03: would.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: He would, you know.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: That it's not likely to get you the response you hope for.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:28
  And also,
• 57:28
  I think on all of this,
• 57:31
  as much as possible,
• 57:34
  don't be attached to perfection.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's not going to happen.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: And can you turn, right?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_03: So turn down the volume on it, if that makes sense.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that, it doesn't have to be this high stakes.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's, I'm just going to blow it if I do this.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_03: Don't think of it that way.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_03: if you feel the need to get this off your chest,
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: I would manage,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: I would,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: manage my expectations and I turn the volume on it.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's not going to be the end of the world.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: Try it.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: See what happens.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, go into it with a sense of experimentation.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to say it.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things,
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: that I'm just like,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: if you're not already doing this,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would just start writing letters that you never send.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: I found in my own past...
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: I did this many times with my parents.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would dream about it.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just,
• 58:39
  there were so many things that I couldn't say to them that I
• 58:43
  wanted to say,
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: but I never did.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: I never did.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: looking back on it,
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: maybe we'd still be where we are today if I had sent those letters,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 58:55
  but I would have felt a great deal of frustration because I
• 58:59
  would have never gotten
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: the outcome that I
• 59:03
  that I sought,
• 59:04
  like you're saying,
• 59:07
  you know,
• 59:07
  it would not have done anything.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, and those were my dreams, honestly.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would dream this,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: a futility dream,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: essentially,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: over and over and over again,
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: where I was,
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: shaking my parents,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: trying to get them to believe me,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: to understand,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: to hear me.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: It would happen in,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: retail stores,
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: it was the most random places,
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: and it would always end in me,
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: like...
• 59:32
  like physically hitting them,
• 59:33
  like just,
• 59:34
  you know,
• 59:34
  but they,
• 59:35
  they,
• 59:36
  nothing ever changed.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing ever changed.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this dream for years in different shapes and form.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: I share this just,
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: because it's coming to mind,
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: but yes,
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: trying to hold it more lightly.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 59:55
  maybe you're not ever going to be able to have an intimate
• 59:58
  heart to heart,
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: or maybe not for many years.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:00:02
  But if there's something that you just got to say,
• 1:00:05
  maybe you just got to say it.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then you go from that and see what happens.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in the meantime,
• 1:00:16
  if you're holding all this inside and you're yearning to share
• 1:00:19
  this intimate part
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: of your heart,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: write it down.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: Write it down.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Find a way to get it out, even if you never give it to her.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: And cry those tears.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: The unmet needs.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Find a way to get it out.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: Find a way to express,
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: find a way to be,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: feel that,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: get that yearning for that intimacy met in some way,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: even if your daughter can't fulfill it,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's imaginary.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:00:55
  Even if you have to give it to your own self as a gift of like
• 1:00:58
  writing it out in a letter.
• 1:01:05
  yeah i do think it's important that moms are also discovering
• 1:01:11
  you know attuning to
• 1:01:14
  open to the context or the the support that helps them feel
• 1:01:20
  loved held guided and
• 1:01:21
  never alone yeah yeah yeah that can look very different you
• 1:01:27
  know depending on
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: What provides that for you?
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that is a missing need that is being expressed here.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:01:39
  Trying to provide that for your child when you're not feeling
• 1:01:41
  it yourself.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's really difficult to do.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: We're at time.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we are.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: We've covered a lot here,
• 1:02:03
  and I hope we've honored each of you who submitted these
• 1:02:08
  questions as fully as
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: possible.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we are always like,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to get back to you with more ways to,
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: share back with us.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:02:23
  my hope and I think our hope is for you to be seen and bringing
• 1:02:28
  these questions and
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: your experience is honored.
• 1:02:34
  And I am always just so profoundly moved by what is shared and
• 1:02:40
  the thoughtfulness and,
• 1:02:42
  you know.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just all the layers, all the layers of these experiences.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for inviting us into your process.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: And on the one hand,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: all of the pain and grief and frustration and futility,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: and on the other hand,
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: How may this winter help us move into a sense of spring, you know?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: All that you are doing is growing you.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes we just are sick of it.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: Don't want to keep growing.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's exhausting.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: Hang in there.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hang in there.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:03:59
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:04:02
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:04:06
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the
• 1:04:09
  conversation.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: As always,
• 1:04:12
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:04:14
  comments and hope you
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_03: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.