Latest / Gil I Am / Malcolm X First Appearance on The Barry Gray Show (March 10, 1960)

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Malcolm X First Appearance on The Barry Gray Show (March 10, 1960) · Gil I Am

0:02
Speaker 1: Let's meet our first guest, mister Malcolm X, the leader
0:07
Speaker 1: of the so called black supremacy movement the Muslims, and
0:11
Speaker 1: that's spelled m U s l I M S yes, Sir,
0:15
Speaker 1: and mister I understand that all of the members of
0:18
Speaker 1: the Muslims have the last name of X.
0:21
Speaker 2: That's correct.
0:22
Speaker 3: And why is that? Well?
0:23
Speaker 2: The X actually identifies or distinguished with distinguishes those of
0:29
Speaker 2: us who are followers of mister Elijah Muhammad from those
0:33
Speaker 2: who are not.
0:34
Speaker 3: I see.
0:35
Speaker 2: And it also exits us from the usage and the
0:40
Speaker 2: identification and the connection with the slave names that were
0:44
Speaker 2: given to our people during slavery time by the slave master.
0:49
Speaker 3: I see.
0:49
Speaker 2: And it will stand until, as you know, mister Muhammad,
0:53
Speaker 2: our leader and teacher, he received his name from God,
0:58
Speaker 2: and those of us who follow him will receive our names.
1:02
Speaker 2: There will come in time when we will receive our names,
1:04
Speaker 2: just like the Bible says in the last Days that
1:06
Speaker 2: God will give the lost sheep or the lost people
1:11
Speaker 2: names out of his own mouth. And we feel that
1:13
Speaker 2: we're living at a day and in a time when
1:15
Speaker 2: those biblical prophecies will reach their fulfillment here in America.
1:20
Speaker 3: Mister X, I have no.
1:23
Speaker 1: Argument whether you're wanting to call yourself X or Y
1:26
Speaker 1: or Z or anything. And I respect your motives. But
1:28
Speaker 1: Shakespeare said, what's in a name? What differences it make?
1:32
Speaker 2: Sir? When you say what's in a name? Black people
1:35
Speaker 2: here in America who have gone into Mississippi using the
1:39
Speaker 2: name Smith, Jones, and Murphy have encountered serious barriers which
1:45
Speaker 2: immediately were eliminated when they use names such as Sharif, Hassan,
1:51
Speaker 2: Dyah and things like that. So when Shakespeare said what's
1:55
Speaker 2: in a name, he probably had never lived in America
1:58
Speaker 2: with a doc's skin.
1:59
Speaker 1: They took names to make the people think they were
2:03
Speaker 1: of Arabic extraction.
2:04
Speaker 2: A good example of that last year was mentioned in
2:07
Speaker 2: Jet where this so called negro from Florida spoke with
2:12
Speaker 2: a French accent in Mississippi and gave himself another name,
2:16
Speaker 2: a foreign name, and was accepted into the veteran hospitals,
2:21
Speaker 2: white veteran hospitals. They took him for an African. So
2:24
Speaker 2: there's much in a name, and I understand it.
2:27
Speaker 3: Mister X.
2:28
Speaker 1: I said in introducing you earlier, that your group has
2:32
Speaker 1: been charged with being Addie white, Addie Semitic, and a
2:36
Speaker 1: kind of black kok klux Klan. Now you've heard that
2:39
Speaker 1: charge before, yes, sir, And what is your answer to it?
2:42
Speaker 2: It's nothing could be father from the truth. First, when
2:47
Speaker 2: you introduced me as the leader of the black supremist
2:50
Speaker 2: movement here in Harlem or here in New York in itself,
2:53
Speaker 2: to is incorrect. I'm mister Elijah Muhammad's minister to the
2:58
Speaker 2: New York Muslim area, and he is the spiritual leader
3:03
Speaker 2: and teacher of all of the Muslims. And in fact,
3:05
Speaker 2: he's the spiritual leader and teacher of the fastest growing
3:07
Speaker 2: group of Muslims in the Western Hemisphere. And here in
3:11
Speaker 2: the New York area, I represent him. I'm his minister.
3:13
Speaker 1: Where does the word Muslim come from?
3:16
Speaker 2: The word Muslim is an Arabic word, which means it
3:19
Speaker 2: comes from the word Islam. Islam is the name of
3:22
Speaker 2: the religion that means complete submission to the will of
3:25
Speaker 2: the divine Supreme Being, and Muslim means one who has
3:30
Speaker 2: submitted himself to the will of the Divine Supreme Being.
3:33
Speaker 3: Now, what's the diervices in a Muslim and a Muslim?
3:36
Speaker 2: Mauslim is only the Anglicized pronunciation and spelling of the
3:40
Speaker 2: Arabic word Muslim.
3:41
Speaker 3: I see that it is the same thing.
3:43
Speaker 2: It's like if you were in Georgia, say you'd say
3:46
Speaker 2: hoss and in New York you say horse, the same thing.
3:49
Speaker 1: Now, where do the charges come from that you are
3:54
Speaker 1: ati white?
3:55
Speaker 2: I think that comes from people who lack the proper
3:58
Speaker 2: understanding and have and who have failed to do research.
4:03
Speaker 2: I think that some people who are bigoted and narrow
4:06
Speaker 2: minded create the phrase and others just follow suit by
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Speaker 2: parroting without actually looking into what mister Muhammad is teaching
4:14
Speaker 2: and what he is doing. If you recall, and I
4:16
Speaker 2: think this is the best answer. When Time magazine wrote
4:20
Speaker 2: an uticle in July or August of fifty nine in
4:24
Speaker 2: which they said that mister Muhammad had successfully eliminated from
4:30
Speaker 2: among his followers the use of alcohol, the use of dope,
4:34
Speaker 2: the use of profanity, adultery, and things of that sort.
4:39
Speaker 2: But then at the same time they turn around and
4:41
Speaker 2: accused him of teaching black supremacy. Now, mind you, they
4:45
Speaker 2: credited him, without realizing it, with reforming the morals of
4:50
Speaker 2: the so called negroes, and then in the next breath
4:52
Speaker 2: they accused him of black supremacy. In the same article,
4:55
Speaker 2: They pointed out that the police chiefs in Los Angeles
4:58
Speaker 2: and across the country marveled at the degree of discipline
5:03
Speaker 2: and obedience and respect for the law that existed among
5:07
Speaker 2: his followers. And at the same time they said that
5:09
Speaker 2: this is what worries the police department. Why that's absurd?
5:13
Speaker 2: And I think that his teaching, mister Muhammad's teaching gives
5:17
Speaker 2: such dignity. It puts such a sincere and strong dignity
5:23
Speaker 2: in those black people who listen to his teaching and
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Speaker 2: accept his teaching, that they have had that inferiority complex
5:34
Speaker 2: and attitude for so long that when they change, it's
5:36
Speaker 2: so noticeable that people who don't understand they associated with
5:40
Speaker 2: an air of supremacy. But I think that's other than true.
5:45
Speaker 1: Malcolm XS to the Chicago American on February twenty second,
5:49
Speaker 1: said that your leader, Elijah Muhammad wants to unite the
5:53
Speaker 1: darker races in exterminating the white race.
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Speaker 2: I think, sir, that the same. And this is the
6:02
Speaker 2: same writer who wrote that didn't even take the time
6:06
Speaker 2: during the convention. We had a convention three days at
6:10
Speaker 2: that time. That writer didn't take the time to come
6:13
Speaker 2: to the convention and listen for himself what mister Mohammad
6:18
Speaker 2: is teaching or what he stated his aims were. I
6:21
Speaker 2: think had he done so that he would have written
6:24
Speaker 2: that article other than the way he did.
6:26
Speaker 1: You or your organization received funds from the United Arab Republic.
6:31
Speaker 2: That's another thing that could not be father from the truth.
6:35
Speaker 2: We receive funds from no one, no outside government other
6:40
Speaker 2: than right here. We received funds from ourselves. All of
6:43
Speaker 2: the finance, all of our projects are financed by so
6:46
Speaker 2: called negroes here in America. Who we even mister Mohammad's program.
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Speaker 1: You'll keep saying so called negro? Mister X, what do
6:52
Speaker 1: you mean by that?
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Speaker 2: Yes, sir, I'm glad you asked me that too. Because
6:57
Speaker 2: when you ask the person his nationality and he says German,
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Speaker 2: it identifies him with a nation called German Germany. If
7:03
Speaker 2: you ask him his nationality and he says French, it
7:05
Speaker 2: identifies him with a nation called France. If he says
7:07
Speaker 2: Englis should identifies him with a nation called England. Now,
7:09
Speaker 2: if you ask him his nationality and he says negro,
7:11
Speaker 2: what has identified.
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Speaker 3: Him with all the color of the skin.
7:14
Speaker 2: But no, negro is a Spanish word, not an English
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Speaker 2: word and the here and the present. In the school
7:21
Speaker 2: curriculum in this country, they have taught us that black
7:24
Speaker 2: is something derogatory. So most Negroes take offense when referred
7:28
Speaker 2: to as black. But except that Africa but understand. But
7:32
Speaker 2: at the same time they say that the word negro
7:35
Speaker 2: means black in Spanish. And they say that if this
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Speaker 2: negro means black in Spanish, then all of the black
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Speaker 2: Spanish speaking people in South and Central America would also
7:44
Speaker 2: be called negroes. And if you'd call a Puerto Rican
7:47
Speaker 2: or a Cuban, or a Mexican or somebody who is
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Speaker 2: black a negro, he takes a fence. A Spanish speaking
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Speaker 2: black person will not accept the term negro.
7:55
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with restricts the factors of many people
7:58
Speaker 1: who make the same mistake about negroes will speak of
8:02
Speaker 1: nationality and say that so and so is a Jew.
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Speaker 3: That's a faith, not a nationality.
8:07
Speaker 2: Negro is not a faith.
8:08
Speaker 1: No, Negro is the color of a skin a man.
8:12
Speaker 1: When you say that you resent or negroes resent the
8:15
Speaker 1: word black. I've had Tom and Boyer here on a
8:18
Speaker 1: couple of occasions, and he tells me that in Africa,
8:21
Speaker 1: the word black is applied by them to themselves. Yes,
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Speaker 1: there are the Blacks or the African, but not Negro.
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Speaker 2: No Negro carries with enough stigma.
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Speaker 1: Well only because of the unfortunate propaganda through the years.
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Speaker 3: But this doesn't mean that it should, sir.
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Speaker 2: Negro is a word that was made up for us,
8:41
Speaker 2: not by we ourselves, but by our slave master doing
8:45
Speaker 2: slavery time. Now, people of India, you have people in
8:49
Speaker 2: India who are doctor than people in Africa. They're not
8:51
Speaker 2: called negroes. You just can't. You can't when you chase
8:54
Speaker 2: it down.
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Speaker 3: I'll try and use what would you call yourself?
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Speaker 2: A black man? I refer to myself as a man
9:00
Speaker 2: despite complexion.
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Speaker 3: I should tell the radio audience that you're very fair.
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Speaker 2: Very light and but see, just like.
9:09
Speaker 1: Wouldn't colored be a more applicable word, No, sir, Colored.
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Speaker 2: To us means that which which has been changed from
9:18
Speaker 2: what it originally was. Those of us today who are
9:24
Speaker 2: who have been taught by mister Muhammad, we accept the
9:27
Speaker 2: term black. We refer to ourselves as black despite complexion,
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Speaker 2: and this gives us unity. As long as you have
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Speaker 2: a group of people like the Negroes, different complexions and
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Speaker 2: their uh, and they may stress upon their complexion that
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Speaker 2: creates a division. And what we need since we have
9:43
Speaker 2: been since one of our characteristic qualities is our disunity.
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Speaker 2: We as so called negroes in America don't need any
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Speaker 2: terms that tend to lend to that disunity. We need
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Speaker 2: to be in united instead of disunited.
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Speaker 3: The alchem X.
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Speaker 1: Why this is that Roy Wilkins of the NAACP and
10:02
Speaker 1: Thurgood Marshall their council are so opposed to your movement?
10:07
Speaker 1: Are they not hard working individuals for equality and desegregation?
10:13
Speaker 2: Sir, I don't think that mister Wilkins and mister Marshall
10:19
Speaker 2: are actually opposed to mister Mohammad's movement, because mister Mohammad's
10:25
Speaker 2: movement is actually doing what they are advocating the betterment
10:30
Speaker 2: of our people. Many people have put words in mister
10:35
Speaker 2: Wilkins's mouth and have put words in mister Marshall's mouth,
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Speaker 2: But I don't think that men of that standing and
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Speaker 2: of that caliber and with that intelligence would cast opinions
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Speaker 2: about a group such as ours without coming to us,
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Speaker 2: or coming among us and studying us who first hand themselves.
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Speaker 1: Mister Axel, Let's tell you the third good Marshall has
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Speaker 1: been there on many occasions, and he has stated to
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Speaker 1: me that he is opposed to your group. He's a
11:00
Speaker 1: learned and informed men, and he's told me this is
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Speaker 1: not a not something that i'd heard.
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Speaker 2: I think you'll find, Sir, that many negroes who reached.
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Speaker 3: I wish you'd stopped calling me sir. I was just
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Speaker 3: a corporal.
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Speaker 2: Well, Sir. One of the things mister Muhammad teaches us
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Speaker 2: is to respect everyone, and I do it.
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Speaker 3: You call me Barry, I think that's enough respect. Well, yes, Sir,
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Speaker 3: I'll call you much better than Ayu. I've been called that.
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Speaker 2: But what you will find that one of the things
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Speaker 2: characteristic too about mister Muhammad's followers is courtesy is a
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Speaker 2: part of our religion, and I respect it. And it's
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Speaker 2: difficult for us to separate ourselves from our religious teat
11:37
Speaker 2: may I.
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Speaker 1: Say, as a former GI that there are ways of
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Speaker 1: saying sir and other ways of saying.
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Speaker 3: Sir, and sometimes it doesn't sound very respectful.
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Speaker 2: Well, I understand. Let me pause here.
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Speaker 1: And tell you that I'm talking with mister Malcolm X,
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Speaker 1: the leader of the Movement of the Muslims or Muslims.
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Speaker 3: He returned to my guest. My guest is Malcolm X,
12:05
Speaker 3: the leader or associate leader.
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Speaker 1: I guess you'd call it of the movement called the Muslims.
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Speaker 3: Mister X, you've.
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Speaker 1: Denied here that your group is anti white, anti Semitic,
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Speaker 1: and in some cases anti Negro. A colleague of mine
12:24
Speaker 1: and an old friend, Mike Wallace, last summer, showed some
12:28
Speaker 1: films of your local rally and he charged then that
12:32
Speaker 1: you have a storm trooper type operation and that your leader,
12:37
Speaker 1: Elijah Muhammad, has a bodyguard of the elite troop.
12:41
Speaker 3: Character is that?
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Speaker 2: So? I wouldn't say that we have a storm before
12:46
Speaker 2: you go to that. So you asked me about Thirdgood
12:48
Speaker 2: Marshall in Wilkins, I wouldn't like to a comment. Go ahead,
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Speaker 2: number one. It hurts me to if they said what
12:54
Speaker 2: they did, which I've never heard it, But it hurts
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Speaker 2: me whenever any so called negroes like that speak out
13:00
Speaker 2: against us, because we think that black people have enough
13:04
Speaker 2: enemies today fighting to make the mistake of fighting each other,
13:08
Speaker 2: fighting among themselves and fighting each other. And I'm very
13:11
Speaker 2: reluctant to make any statement against any so called negro
13:15
Speaker 2: today who even professes to be fighting the battle for
13:18
Speaker 2: justice for the so called negroes. If they want to
13:20
Speaker 2: attack us, they're free to do so. But we find
13:23
Speaker 2: that we have our hands full enough fighting for justice
13:26
Speaker 2: for the soul called negro to spend time fighting. Mister
13:31
Speaker 2: Marshall and mister Wilkins.
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Speaker 3: Well, I understand that.
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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, of the democratic society, mister X,
13:36
Speaker 1: no one expects all Negroes or all anything to agree.
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Speaker 2: But you got a new Negro on the scene today, sir,
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Speaker 2: who's fast, Who's rising up faster than I think even
13:47
Speaker 2: mister Wilkins and mister Marshall are aware of. And I
13:51
Speaker 2: said a new Negro. When I say a new Negro,
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Speaker 2: a new collective negro. Whereas in the past negroes were
13:57
Speaker 2: reluctant to stick together on certain issues, and they were
14:01
Speaker 2: reluctant to exhibit action other than passive, today they'll try
14:06
Speaker 2: it passive if passive will work, and if passive doesn't work,
14:09
Speaker 2: they'll they resort to.
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Speaker 3: What will work. What what do you mean by what
14:13
Speaker 3: will work? Does that mean violence?
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Speaker 2: No, sir, because I would not want you to think
14:19
Speaker 2: that the followers of mister Muhammad are people of violence.
14:23
Speaker 2: But when you stop to think, sir, who does mister
14:26
Speaker 2: Wilkins speak for? Who does mister Thurgood Marshall speak for?
14:30
Speaker 2: If Roy Wilkins in Third Good Marshall combined advertise the
14:34
Speaker 2: fact that they were going to give a lecture or
14:37
Speaker 2: speech Saturday afternoon on one hundred and twenty fifth Street
14:40
Speaker 2: and Seventh Avenue in Harlem, they probably would be lucky
14:44
Speaker 2: to get a thousand people. If you advertise the fact
14:46
Speaker 2: that mister Mohammad was going to speak at that same place,
14:49
Speaker 2: you couldn't get within four blocks of the place. This
14:51
Speaker 2: is facts, now, mister egs.
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Speaker 1: To use your your very analogy, I'm sure that if
14:57
Speaker 1: Hitler was around, he'd draw a pretty big crowd too.
15:00
Speaker 2: I'm surprised that a man of your intelligence and experience
15:04
Speaker 2: would use the name Hitler in the same brand.
15:09
Speaker 1: No, but you've told me about the crowd sometimes, you know,
15:11
Speaker 1: the public is not always right.
15:13
Speaker 2: Well, then who speaks for who? This is the thing?
15:16
Speaker 2: If Roy Wilkins is this?
15:17
Speaker 1: If consume I assume that Roy Wilkins and the Third
15:21
Speaker 1: Good Marshall speak for all of the paid up members
15:25
Speaker 1: or contributors of the NAACP.
15:27
Speaker 3: No, I don't know what that number amounts to, sir.
15:29
Speaker 1: But people that contribute to an organization obviously believe in
15:33
Speaker 1: it and they represent these people. I don't think Roy
15:36
Speaker 1: Wilkins ever said that he speaks for all the Negroes of.
15:39
Speaker 3: The United States.
15:40
Speaker 1: And I know Third Good Marshall not only professionally but personally.
15:45
Speaker 1: And I'm sure the Third Good Marshall doesn't believe that
15:47
Speaker 1: he speaks for all of the Negroes because there's some
15:49
Speaker 1: Negroes he has very.
15:50
Speaker 3: Little use for it, and he wouldn't want to speak
15:52
Speaker 3: for them.
15:54
Speaker 2: Well, there are no Negroes that we don't have any
15:57
Speaker 2: use for.
15:58
Speaker 1: We love all of them, but you're putting them in
15:59
Speaker 1: the same category, if I may say, as the racists
16:03
Speaker 1: on the other side put the negro you're making all
16:07
Speaker 1: Negroes good negroes and all whites bad whites.
16:11
Speaker 2: We think, Sir, that the bad qualities and bad characteristics
16:15
Speaker 2: that you might detect in the so called negroes today
16:20
Speaker 2: due to sociological conditions under which they live, for which
16:28
Speaker 2: we feel they are not responsible for most of their
16:32
Speaker 2: faults that you find false of drunkenness, false of dope addiction,
16:37
Speaker 2: and things of that sort. We don't feel that the
16:41
Speaker 2: Negro in America is having undergone three hundred and ten
16:45
Speaker 2: years of slavery, during which time he was stripped completely
16:50
Speaker 2: of his culture and anything that would give him dignity
16:54
Speaker 2: or racial cohesiveness to the point where he would want
16:58
Speaker 2: to stand up only under extreme circumstances. We just don't
17:03
Speaker 2: hold him responsible for that.
17:07
Speaker 3: These who have had You're not going to excuse us.
17:09
Speaker 2: We're not excusing it in this day in time, But
17:12
Speaker 2: we don't hold him responsible.
17:14
Speaker 1: The You are then saying, if I understand you correctly,
17:18
Speaker 1: that all Negroes who are involved in narcotics, traffic, addiction, drunkenness, whatever,
17:24
Speaker 1: these people.
17:24
Speaker 3: Are to be excused.
17:25
Speaker 2: No, sir, But I am saying that I think that
17:28
Speaker 2: the white man who is familiar with the history of
17:33
Speaker 2: the Negro in America, when he sees the false that
17:39
Speaker 2: the Negro displays today here in America, the white man
17:41
Speaker 2: himself should be very slow to criticize or condemn that
17:47
Speaker 2: Negro or his for his condition mis or X.
17:50
Speaker 1: I either criticize nor condemn. I'm trying to trying to
17:53
Speaker 1: get a story, except I hate to think that we're
17:56
Speaker 1: going to present the sacha of a poor, down trodden
18:01
Speaker 1: individual who's just crooked because he never had a chance.
18:05
Speaker 1: Because some of our finest citizens in this community, negro
18:08
Speaker 1: and white, have come out of those poor, down trodden conditions.
18:12
Speaker 1: Principal and the fiber of character are very strong things.
18:16
Speaker 1: They overcome a great many setbacks. And I'm not going
18:19
Speaker 1: to tell you that the Negroes have had an easy.
18:21
Speaker 3: Road to hoe. They've had a very tough row. But
18:24
Speaker 3: isn't it.
18:24
Speaker 1: Strange that out of that very background have come some
18:26
Speaker 1: of your most remarkable people.
18:28
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, and there are those few. We don't clap
18:34
Speaker 2: our hands and say hooray over the few. We're thinking
18:37
Speaker 2: of the masses.
18:38
Speaker 3: Oh, I think they're really more than two who.
18:40
Speaker 2: Are yet in that downtrodden condition. I agree, But.
18:43
Speaker 3: Mister X, we're getting far away from the subject. What
18:46
Speaker 3: about your the elite bodyguard.
18:49
Speaker 1: And the stormtrooper type operation that Mike Wallace showed on.
18:52
Speaker 3: Film last year.
18:54
Speaker 2: I think that Mike Wallace showed I don't think he
18:57
Speaker 2: showed anything that you could call stormtroopers, but he probably
19:01
Speaker 2: showed something that could be classified as elite in the
19:04
Speaker 2: sense that the followers of mister Muhammad taught discipline and
19:11
Speaker 2: courtesy and a hygiene, physical hygiene, mental hygiene, spiritual hygiene,
19:19
Speaker 2: to the point where they are very easy to distinguish
19:24
Speaker 2: between others.
19:27
Speaker 1: Mister X, you've just told me about the great mental
19:30
Speaker 1: hygiene of your leader. Is it true that he was
19:34
Speaker 1: in prison in the Federal penitentiary for three years beginning
19:37
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty three for subversive activity?
19:40
Speaker 2: He was in prison for refusing to go to the army,
19:46
Speaker 2: for refusing to fight. He's a Muslim, he teaches the
19:49
Speaker 2: religion of peace, and he was sent to prison for
19:52
Speaker 2: refusing to go to the war. That was why he
19:56
Speaker 2: was sent to prison.
19:57
Speaker 3: I am given to understand that it's because he aligned.
19:59
Speaker 1: Himself the Bright Black Dragon Society of Japan.
20:02
Speaker 2: That's absurd if he had aligned himself with the Black
20:06
Speaker 2: Dragon Society of Japan. Sir, well, bringing you a Federal
20:10
Speaker 2: Bureau of Investigation and ask them.
20:12
Speaker 1: Well, mister X, a man does not go to prison
20:15
Speaker 1: under our society if he can prove that he is
20:18
Speaker 1: a legitimate conscientious objector. We had many such during the.
20:23
Speaker 2: War, Sir. I think you'll find that prisons were filled
20:26
Speaker 2: with conscientious objectors. We have brothers right at this moment
20:29
Speaker 2: who are serving prison sentences for conscientious being conscientious objectors.
20:35
Speaker 1: Because possibly that their background did not show a legitimate
20:39
Speaker 1: reason they became conscientious objectors for the purposes.
20:42
Speaker 3: Of the draft.
20:44
Speaker 2: I don't quite understand.
20:45
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you a very well known example.
20:47
Speaker 1: There was a man named Lou Ayers who is a Quaker,
20:51
Speaker 1: and mister Ayres, known as a Quaker and a very
20:54
Speaker 1: religious man, would not bear arms. So he became a
20:58
Speaker 1: member of an ambulance unit, and he did not bear arms.
21:02
Speaker 1: He was a conscientious objector. The medical Corps was filled
21:05
Speaker 1: with hundreds of men who would not bear arms but
21:07
Speaker 1: worked as laboratory technicians and the rest. But those who
21:11
Speaker 1: suddenly became conscientious objectors on the day that the draft
21:14
Speaker 1: called them were put in prison because there was no
21:17
Speaker 1: record of their ever having been a member of a
21:20
Speaker 1: religious group or sect that would prove this point.
21:23
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I think you'll find, sir, that nearly a
21:27
Speaker 2: hundred of mister Muhammad's followers went to prison along with
21:31
Speaker 2: him for refusing to go to the army. And by
21:35
Speaker 2: refusing to go to the army, they absolutely didn't even register.
21:39
Speaker 2: They had no part of the war whatsoever. But it
21:41
Speaker 2: wasn't in line with Japan or because of what Japan
21:45
Speaker 2: was doing.
21:47
Speaker 3: Let me quote to you from the Chicago American.
21:50
Speaker 1: It says here, there's the nineteen forty two of the
21:52
Speaker 1: Chicago Herald American. This newspaper's predecessor exposed a fifth Column
21:58
Speaker 1: plot designed to unite the world world's dark skinned people under.
22:02
Speaker 3: Japan and exterminate the white race.
22:05
Speaker 1: Elijah Muhammad alias Elijah Pool alias Elijah Makhmud was accused
22:11
Speaker 1: by the FBI of being one of the leaders in
22:14
Speaker 1: this fantastic plot. When the FBI tracked him to his
22:18
Speaker 1: mother's home in Chicago, they found.
22:20
Speaker 3: Him rolled up in a carpet under her feet.
22:23
Speaker 2: Sir, I think you will find this.
22:26
Speaker 1: Is the FBI you said you wanted the FBI quote.
22:29
Speaker 1: Leaders of the sect were charged with violating the Federal
22:32
Speaker 1: Espionage Act. Conviction under that law carried a maximum penalty
22:37
Speaker 1: of twenty years in prison and a ten thousand dollars
22:40
Speaker 1: fine for each offense. The FBI said the subversive groups,
22:44
Speaker 1: numbering one hundred thousand persons throughout the United States, had
22:48
Speaker 1: been organizing for more than ten years under the Japanese
22:52
Speaker 1: Black Dragon Society. A four month undercover investigation by The
22:55
Speaker 1: Herald American brought to light the activities of these groups,
22:59
Speaker 1: and these findings were turned over to federal authorities. When
23:03
Speaker 1: questioned by Assistant US Attorneys William J. Conner, John Keeley
23:08
Speaker 1: and Leroy Crime, all the leaders denied they were citizens
23:12
Speaker 1: of the United States. All asserted they were born in
23:15
Speaker 1: West Asia, that they were Asiatics and Muslims and not
23:18
Speaker 1: subject to American laws. Records, however, showed they were all
23:23
Speaker 1: born in this country, and Mohammad and one other were
23:26
Speaker 1: arranged on sedition charges.
23:28
Speaker 3: And held in bond after the U.
23:29
Speaker 1: S Commissioner said these men were leaders in this dangerous
23:33
Speaker 1: subversive plot. It was at there behest that many of
23:36
Speaker 1: the others evaded the draft.
23:38
Speaker 3: They also advocated direct alliance with this nation's anime Japan.
23:43
Speaker 2: Sir, I completely disagree, and I read that in the
23:50
Speaker 2: Chicago paper when I was out there last week. If
23:53
Speaker 2: mister Muhammad and his followers were arrested for that, were
23:56
Speaker 2: they convicted for that, well, they went to jail, No, Sir, No,
24:01
Speaker 2: they went to jail for refusing to register for the draft,
24:04
Speaker 2: But they were not convicted of any kind of espionage. Mister,
24:09
Speaker 2: and Sir, today they aren't on the Attorney General subversive list,
24:13
Speaker 2: and if they said they weren't citizens. The United States
24:17
Speaker 2: Senate right now is putting on a filibuster in Washington,
24:20
Speaker 2: d C. To prove that the black man here is
24:24
Speaker 2: not a citizen.
24:25
Speaker 3: Yes, but I don't accept that.
24:28
Speaker 2: You are an individual.
24:29
Speaker 1: The federal law of this country states that anyone naturally
24:32
Speaker 1: born in the United States is a citizen of this country,
24:36
Speaker 1: whether he be of the black.
24:37
Speaker 3: Race, the yellow race, of the white race.
24:40
Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, the Japanese in California
24:43
Speaker 1: had the same difficulty.
24:44
Speaker 3: For a very long time.
24:45
Speaker 1: But anyone born in this country, naturally born, is an
24:49
Speaker 1: automatic citizen and it can never be denied.
24:52
Speaker 2: Do they deny these Japanese and white people civil rights?
24:56
Speaker 2: You see, civil rights makes a man a citizen. You're
24:59
Speaker 2: in You've gotta not yet. Men in Washington right now.
25:02
Speaker 2: That revolves around civil rights, which is supposed to make
25:05
Speaker 2: Negro citizens know, it's.
25:07
Speaker 3: Supposed to give them voting privileges.
25:09
Speaker 1: It does not have anything to do with Edicen has
25:11
Speaker 1: voting peronos and he doesn't have voting privileges, even not
25:14
Speaker 1: a citizen, he has.
25:15
Speaker 3: Voting privilege in the South that he pays his poll tax,
25:18
Speaker 3: and I'm against that.
25:19
Speaker 2: But I understand Sarah, and I think that you're intelligent
25:22
Speaker 2: enough to see that any time you have to make
25:25
Speaker 2: new bills or pass new bills to give voting privileges,
25:30
Speaker 2: of voting rights to approximately twenty million black people, then
25:34
Speaker 2: you just can't call those people's citizen.
25:36
Speaker 3: Well, let's go back to your leader.
25:38
Speaker 1: According to the Chicago Newspaper, at a meeting September the thirteenth,
25:42
Speaker 1: nineteen forty two, this same Elijah Muhammad told his followers,
25:47
Speaker 1: and this is a direct quote, the red back to
25:50
Speaker 1: the ground of the flag of Islam represents the Sun.
25:54
Speaker 1: The crescent and star represent the moon and the planets.
25:57
Speaker 1: The other flag you see there, the stars and stripes,
26:00
Speaker 1: is the symbol of the white devils. There is only
26:03
Speaker 1: one flag for us, and that is the flag of Islam.
26:06
Speaker 1: Siaad compares with the Japanese flag of the Rising Sun.
26:11
Speaker 1: The reason for the likeness is that the Japanese are
26:13
Speaker 1: our brothers. They're the only ones who can give us justice,
26:17
Speaker 1: freedom and equality.
26:19
Speaker 3: And at the meeting of one.
26:20
Speaker 1: Of the subversive groups, one of the leaders exhibited a
26:22
Speaker 1: movie showing the Japanese version of the bombing of Pearl Harbor,
26:27
Speaker 1: and the followers cheered loudly. Speakers at some of the
26:30
Speaker 1: meetings uncovered by Patriotic Negro organizations made statements as our
26:35
Speaker 1: prayers were answered with the bombings of Pearl Harbor. God
26:39
Speaker 1: bless Hitler Tojo will save American Negroes from the white yoke.
26:43
Speaker 1: Great Japanese victories leave fewer victims for us. And on
26:48
Speaker 1: March fifth, nineteen thirty five, two hundred members of the
26:51
Speaker 1: group rioted in the Chicago courtroom of Municipal Judge Edward S.
26:56
Speaker 2: Scheffler, Sir, I'm surprised that you would take a newspaper
27:03
Speaker 2: which you could, pardon me, go ahead, which you can
27:05
Speaker 2: get one printed in Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama, and Chicago. Is
27:10
Speaker 2: no exception.
27:10
Speaker 1: This is a newspaper with millions of dollars of assets.
27:13
Speaker 1: Mister X the off you wanted to see them, It's
27:16
Speaker 1: very simple.
27:17
Speaker 2: You have papers in Mississippi that have million dollars worth
27:20
Speaker 2: of assets. The assets are of no consequence whatsoever. The flag,
27:26
Speaker 2: the sun mooning Star, the Shriners, which is one of
27:29
Speaker 2: the top orders of the Massonic. They used the cress.
27:32
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with.
27:33
Speaker 1: That, or I have no objection to your flag, nor
27:35
Speaker 1: in particularly the flag of Islam.
27:36
Speaker 3: I do have objection of the speeches that this.
27:39
Speaker 1: Man has made, and incidentally, the stupidity of the statement
27:42
Speaker 1: that God blessed Hitler, because I seen to recall Hitler
27:45
Speaker 1: and a man named Jesse Ollen.
27:47
Speaker 2: Yes, understand if you will take that paper which you've
27:50
Speaker 2: never seen until.
27:50
Speaker 3: It was put in front of you, or I saw
27:52
Speaker 3: it earlier.
27:53
Speaker 2: And I reached the conclusion that the man said it
27:56
Speaker 2: without doing some investigation for yourself. You're overlooking the fact
27:59
Speaker 2: that mister Muhammad has united and reformed and is reforming
28:04
Speaker 2: more Negroes than any other black man in America. You're
28:08
Speaker 2: overlooking the fact that he's creating love and brotherhood among
28:14
Speaker 2: his people that didn't exist before. You're overlooking the fact
28:17
Speaker 2: that he's making law abiding citizens out of black people
28:21
Speaker 2: who had no regard or respect.
28:23
Speaker 3: For law before.
28:24
Speaker 2: You're overlooking all of these positive quality not only and
28:28
Speaker 2: lulling out something, sir, that was planted in a newspaper
28:31
Speaker 2: twenty years ago.
28:32
Speaker 1: Oh no, this is from this is the issue of
28:34
Speaker 1: February twenty.
28:36
Speaker 2: What's your quoting, sir? Was written twenty years ago. Which
28:40
Speaker 2: your quoting was written twenty years ago. It come out
28:42
Speaker 2: in the paper in Chicago last week to try and
28:45
Speaker 2: keep the make the negroes in Chicago afraid. Any time
28:49
Speaker 2: you can find a black man.
28:51
Speaker 3: Mister, Yes, sir, there's one so called black man.
28:54
Speaker 1: I don't use the term, but there is a black
28:56
Speaker 1: man named Lestra Brownly.
28:59
Speaker 2: Yes.
28:59
Speaker 3: And he writes the column yes, in which he says
29:02
Speaker 3: that your organization.
29:03
Speaker 1: Has great similarities with Hitlerism. He says both have made
29:08
Speaker 1: a strong appeal to the frustrated pointing up injustices. Both
29:13
Speaker 1: use hatred to pit one group against another. Both spread
29:16
Speaker 1: the quasi religious doctrine.
29:18
Speaker 3: Of racial superiority.
29:21
Speaker 1: Both attacked Christianity and democracy as incompetent to solve problems.
29:26
Speaker 1: Both used the approach of a demagogue. Both demand fierce
29:29
Speaker 1: loyalty of followers. Both started inside the framework of the law,
29:33
Speaker 1: both in doctrine and youth. Both built an.
29:36
Speaker 3: Ela and elite guard.
29:38
Speaker 1: Both allied their causes, which with other nations which had
29:41
Speaker 1: similar doctrines, in Mohammad's case, with a rising tide of
29:44
Speaker 1: nationalism in Africa today. Now that's a Negro writer who
29:48
Speaker 1: wrote that you're right.
29:49
Speaker 2: He's a Negro writer, Sir. And the thing that surprises
29:53
Speaker 2: me about what you're saying, you overlooking the fact that
29:56
Speaker 2: mister Mohammad just finished the tour of the Muslim world,
30:00
Speaker 2: Muslim countries of Africa and Asia, at which time he
30:03
Speaker 2: was warmly received at the Holy City of Mecca and
30:06
Speaker 2: Medina in Arabia. And you cannot call a Muslim who
30:10
Speaker 2: enters Mecca a pseudo Muslim or a member of a
30:13
Speaker 2: quasi religion. And also, Sir, I think you'll find that
30:18
Speaker 2: if you think that mister Muhammad is anti white, you cannot.
30:22
Speaker 2: No white person can come around any group of black
30:26
Speaker 2: people and get more respect than they will get when
30:29
Speaker 2: they come amongst the followers of mister Elijah Muhammad. I
30:32
Speaker 2: think one thing that the white man should know is this,
30:35
Speaker 2: there's a new Negro, there's a new thinking going on
30:38
Speaker 2: among Negroes. And it's the misinformation that's being given to
30:43
Speaker 2: the white man by the leaders he himself has put
30:47
Speaker 2: up there to keep him in form that makes him
30:50
Speaker 2: not aware today of the dissatisfaction and the degree of
30:54
Speaker 2: it and the intensity of it that's the existing among
30:58
Speaker 2: the Negroes. And because mister Muhammad comes long and expresses
31:01
Speaker 2: it openly and frankly so that you will understand. Instead
31:05
Speaker 2: of listening to what he's saying and taking that as
31:07
Speaker 2: a warning, you are making the mistake of condemning the
31:11
Speaker 2: man as a hate teacher, a warning of what sir,
31:17
Speaker 2: you reap what you saw, ass you sow social U.
31:22
Speaker 3: Let me put it this way.
31:23
Speaker 1: There are one hundred and seventy million people in the
31:25
Speaker 1: United States, and I venture to say that the overwhelming
31:29
Speaker 1: number of them are very much for civil rights. Because
31:33
Speaker 1: the South is certainly a minority group of our total population.
31:37
Speaker 1: Would you say that all of the white people should
31:40
Speaker 1: reap as they sew?
31:41
Speaker 2: Sir? If the overwhelming number of white people in America
31:47
Speaker 2: or four civil rights, why do you have such a
31:51
Speaker 2: difficult time getting a civil rights build back because of
31:56
Speaker 2: the makeup of our political chamber? Sir? If the number
32:00
Speaker 2: in America of whites for civil rights was overwhelming, there
32:05
Speaker 2: is no combination of schemes that Southern senators could concoct
32:11
Speaker 2: to get that bill from being passed. President Eisenhower himself
32:15
Speaker 2: has just made a tour of Africa, Asia and South America,
32:19
Speaker 2: and he has not said one word yet against the
32:23
Speaker 2: atrocities that are being committed against black people here in America.
32:27
Speaker 1: Well, you wouldn't expect the president to go abroad and
32:30
Speaker 1: make that kind of.
32:31
Speaker 2: A speech where he hasn't made a speech such as
32:33
Speaker 2: that in Washington, Sir, I wouldn't expect him.
32:35
Speaker 1: I happened to be of democratic persuasion. So please don't
32:39
Speaker 1: ask me to defend the president this week.
32:41
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, how.
32:43
Speaker 3: About Hubert Humphrey.
32:45
Speaker 2: Hubert Humphrey is one man. Yes, if President Eisenhower is
32:50
Speaker 2: the president, he has influenced enough to speak out on
32:55
Speaker 2: any kind of situation.
32:56
Speaker 3: I agree with that. But what about Hubert Humphrey?
32:58
Speaker 2: And what about the Great and Humphrey, Sir, is not
33:01
Speaker 2: the president.
33:02
Speaker 3: What about the Great? Well, he may be, You're.
33:04
Speaker 2: Humphrey doesn't represent the United States of America as such.
33:07
Speaker 2: Eisenhower represents the thinking of the United States, the program
33:13
Speaker 2: of principles the United States. And if he doesn't speak
33:16
Speaker 2: out against these atrocities, then.
33:19
Speaker 3: Who will mister X Let me ask you this.
33:21
Speaker 1: Aren't you building, in your way a black supremacy group,
33:26
Speaker 1: just like the ko klux Klan has built a white
33:29
Speaker 1: supremacy group.
33:30
Speaker 3: What's the difference, sir?
33:31
Speaker 2: I think that as a white man, you yourself should
33:37
Speaker 2: use or exercise caution in referring to any black group
33:43
Speaker 2: in America in the same breath with the ku Klux Klan.
33:47
Speaker 2: The ku Klux Klan was set up and designed to
33:50
Speaker 2: uphold quite supremacy, rightly or wrongly. Yet that's what their
33:55
Speaker 2: program is. Now, then we represent a group that has
34:00
Speaker 2: been oppressed by whites for four hundred years. The white
34:06
Speaker 2: man cannot deny that we were kidnapped and brought here.
34:09
Speaker 2: He can't deny that we were stripped of our culture,
34:11
Speaker 2: stripped of our language, stripped of our flag, stripped of
34:14
Speaker 2: our identity, and then robbed of three hundred and ten
34:18
Speaker 2: years of free labor. He can't deny that now any
34:21
Speaker 2: group today that voices resentment and speaks it openly and frankly.
34:27
Speaker 2: The white man, since his hands are so blood soaked,
34:32
Speaker 2: he should feel guilty. He shouldn't feel vindictive. He shouldn't
34:36
Speaker 2: say why this man is a hate bonger. Instead, he
34:39
Speaker 2: should go and talk to that man and say, well, now, listen,
34:42
Speaker 2: we are guilty of this. What can we do to
34:44
Speaker 2: right things? What can we do to correct thing? Especially
34:47
Speaker 2: in light of the fact that the senators will stand
34:50
Speaker 2: up on the floor of the Senate and say some
34:53
Speaker 2: of the most outrageous things about the black man in America,
34:57
Speaker 2: and not one time on your program, even sir, would
35:00
Speaker 2: you accuse McLellan who received an award Rea If.
35:05
Speaker 3: You haven't, you haven't heard this broadcast, I listen to you.
35:07
Speaker 1: I admired Senator McClellan has had a couple of lumps
35:12
Speaker 1: on this microphone and solve all the Southern senators.
35:15
Speaker 2: You'd be surprised how many white people agree with mister
35:17
Speaker 2: Muhammad and right, and I mean intelligent white people who
35:20
Speaker 2: are what you call biggots, but who are open minded,
35:23
Speaker 2: both Democrats, Republicans and otherwise.
35:25
Speaker 1: If that's the case, then I suggest you form a
35:28
Speaker 1: political party and run candidate.
35:30
Speaker 2: And so I would like to say, if you allow me,
35:32
Speaker 2: that one of the things that has cost so much unrest,
35:36
Speaker 2: and it's going to cause worse unrest, is this integration
35:39
Speaker 2: thing that they are trying to put across in which the.
35:43
Speaker 3: Masses of mister X.
35:44
Speaker 1: I'm terribly sorry we have to break for the mids
35:46
Speaker 1: Ideas on Radio WMCA.
35:48
Speaker 3: Will be right back and now my guest again Malcolm X.
35:53
Speaker 3: And mister X. We've spent almost an hour talking and
35:56
Speaker 3: I have.
35:57
Speaker 1: Other guests, so I would like to ask you to
35:59
Speaker 1: provide some wind up comment, if you will, about your movement.
36:03
Speaker 2: Yes, Sir, I think, sir, and I really appreciate your
36:08
Speaker 2: allowing me to say these things because I think that
36:11
Speaker 2: if the white man had a better understanding of what
36:14
Speaker 2: mister Muhammad is actually teaching and doing, that there would
36:18
Speaker 2: be no disagreement between him and us.
36:20
Speaker 1: But mister X, the federal government obviously knows what he's doing.
36:25
Speaker 2: I think, Sir, that you will not find us on
36:27
Speaker 2: any government subverssive list.
36:29
Speaker 3: No no, no, no, I'm talking about his jail term.
36:33
Speaker 2: You will find, also, Sir, that I don't think it's
36:35
Speaker 2: a disgrace for any man to have gone to prison
36:39
Speaker 2: for because he felt that fighting was other than religious.
36:43
Speaker 2: And I think, also, Sir, you will find and if
36:46
Speaker 2: you think that mister Muhammad is not expressing the views
36:52
Speaker 2: of many, many, many masses of negroes, I would advise
36:56
Speaker 2: those who listen to this to write into you and
36:58
Speaker 2: let you know how they feel. I think that it
37:00
Speaker 2: would be better representative. You probably would be more receptive
37:04
Speaker 2: to what your audience had to say than what I say,
37:07
Speaker 2: mister X.
37:08
Speaker 1: You tell me that you're listener's broadcast to great many times. Well,
37:10
Speaker 1: a lot of people in this country they thought McCarthy
37:13
Speaker 1: was a kind of an elevated political figure, and they
37:18
Speaker 1: wrote to me too.
37:19
Speaker 2: You know why, I think that most people misunderstand. They
37:21
Speaker 2: don't realize the religious the actual essence of our religious interpretation.
37:28
Speaker 2: We when we look at mister Muhammad, we look at
37:32
Speaker 2: him as Moses. We look at the Bible.
37:35
Speaker 1: I can't recall the Bible saying anything about Moses having
37:38
Speaker 1: an elite troop of guards.
37:40
Speaker 2: I think you will find, sir, that Moses was a
37:42
Speaker 2: person who came to separate his people from the slave master.
37:46
Speaker 2: Moses didn't advocate integration. Moses advocated separation.
37:50
Speaker 3: Did the march Moses.
37:52
Speaker 2: Moses was a man who appeared to slaves, and his
37:55
Speaker 2: mission was to separate those slaves from their slave master.
38:00
Speaker 2: God could destroy the slave master. And we feel that
38:03
Speaker 2: those Bible stories, Sir, are only symbols that pink prophetic
38:07
Speaker 2: pictures of the day and time that we're living in
38:10
Speaker 2: right now.
38:10
Speaker 1: I cannot recall any word of Moses in the Old
38:14
Speaker 1: Testament professing anything of hatred, and all I've said, all
38:18
Speaker 1: I've read here, according to these newspaper reports, which if
38:22
Speaker 1: they are untrue, you have every right to sue for
38:25
Speaker 1: enormous sums of money. All I've read here are speeches
38:29
Speaker 1: of hatred made by your leader. Sir, I think you
38:32
Speaker 1: can read the Congressional record in the morning and find
38:35
Speaker 1: some speeches that are more hate filled being delivered by
38:39
Speaker 1: the senators from the floor of the United States Senate.
38:42
Speaker 1: We are not talking about the senators. And while I'm
38:46
Speaker 1: on the subject of the Old Testament, I would remind
38:48
Speaker 1: you that it was Moses who fled from the Muslims,
38:52
Speaker 1: his slave masters.
38:53
Speaker 2: No, Sir, I think you'll find that in those days,
38:57
Speaker 2: Moses were in firstnumber one. We don't even look at
39:01
Speaker 2: the thing as literal but a symbolic story referring to today.
39:07
Speaker 2: That this is the story of the health of bondage
39:09
Speaker 2: represents America. The Hebrew children represent the so called negroes.
39:14
Speaker 2: Moses in that day represents mister Mohammad here in America
39:17
Speaker 2: today to us. And we feel that that is a warning.
39:21
Speaker 2: Just as Moses' job was to warn the slave master
39:24
Speaker 2: that it was time for God to bless his people,
39:27
Speaker 2: mister Mohammad's job here in America today is to warn
39:31
Speaker 2: the white man, not condemn him, but warn him, warning
39:34
Speaker 2: of what, warn him that.
39:35
Speaker 1: As you saw war, shall the word warren as an
39:38
Speaker 1: armorous sound. You mean that for every Negro that's been lenched,
39:41
Speaker 1: the white person will be laying.
39:43
Speaker 2: I think you'll find, sir, that the law of justice
39:47
Speaker 2: is and God is a just God. If God visited
39:50
Speaker 2: the slave master in Egypt for what he did to
39:55
Speaker 2: the slaves, and he visited the slave master in Babylon
39:58
Speaker 2: for what he did to the slave if you look
40:01
Speaker 2: at that and see how God worked in the past,
40:03
Speaker 2: and you don't think he's going to work the same
40:04
Speaker 2: way today, then I think that it's it's fool heart.
40:07
Speaker 1: I am simply on the record against anyone who preaches hatred, Sir,
40:11
Speaker 1: and I believe that your leader preaches hatred.
40:13
Speaker 2: I don't think I do.
40:16
Speaker 1: I don't believe in black supremacy, and more than I
40:19
Speaker 1: believe in white supremacy, I don't believe in supremacy of
40:22
Speaker 1: anything except the Almighty. And I get very nervous about
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Speaker 1: people who stand around and try.
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Speaker 3: To build us up so we're ready to march, Sir.
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Speaker 2: God is considered supreme because he was first and will
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Speaker 2: be last. His people are also considered supreme, because just
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Speaker 2: as he was first and will be last, they were
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Speaker 2: first and will be last. That which is first and
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Speaker 2: last is supreme.
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Speaker 3: I was neither first, nor do I expect to be last.
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Speaker 3: I thank you for coming.
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Speaker 2: I thank you, mister Gray.
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Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen.
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Speaker 1: Malcolm X of the SO calls it's been described as such,
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Speaker 1: the Black supremacy movement, the Muslims, their leader Elijah Muhammad.
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Speaker 1: We've been spending We spent more than an hour on
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Speaker 1: this discussion. We have many guests.