Latest / Karl and Crew / Examining Purity Culture with Dannah Gresh & Decision vs Surrender with Dr. John Mabus

Transcript

Examining Purity Culture with Dannah Gresh & Decision vs Surrender with Dr. John Mabus · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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  S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew. Baba do baba do baba do baba do
• 0:51
  S1: baba do. It's Carl and crew. Just wanted to start
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  S1: it that way.
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  S2: Close to that mic this morning. It's like popping peas.
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  S1: And you.
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  S3: Buzz.
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  S1: And super die too. And Young Thunder makes it three.
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  S1: We're all here. Guys, this is crazy. What's going on?
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  S1: What are you laughing about?
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  S3: Young thunder and young thunder makes it three.
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  S2: It didn't.
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  S1: Quite.
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  S2: Didn't quite land.
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  S1: I was going to talk about doo doo, but I
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  S1: didn't want to do that to you. You.
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  S3: So I wouldn't have blamed you.
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  S2: You're doing good this morning, Carl.
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  S1: I'm doing.
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  S2: Great. Great.
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  S3: You gotta do what you gotta do.
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  S2: For that dog.
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  S1: Feeling good? All under. Remember that? Remember that perspiration commercial?
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  S1: But I just put her head in her hand.
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  S4: I'm tagging out.
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  S1: Come on. I feel good all under. Don't. Does anyone
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  S1: else remember that?
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  S2: I remember.
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  S3: I remember you telling me about that. We had a
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  S3: show probably 6 or 7 years ago that it was like.
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  S3: And there was like a song that you sang. It
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  S3: was like, so, so good. It makes me feel like
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  S3: good down under, like I don't remember, but you were like,
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  S3: what is that song? And then I was like, I
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  S3: don't know. And so I looked it up and we
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  S3: tried to find makes.
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  S1: Me feel so good. Makes me tingle all over.
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  S3: That's what it is.
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  S2: Yeah.
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  S3: Is it the same thing?
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  S2: Was an ad for a soap.
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  S1: Oh, those are two different.
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  S3: Oh, okay.
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  S2: Okay. Well, what's the good? All under one.
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  S1: A good all under is some kind of antiperspirant. And
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  S1: people walk around going, how you doing? I'm good. All under.
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  S1: And they lift up their arms a little bit.
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  S2: So you know, the other, the other. When I think
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  S2: about the commercials that stick with you, the other, the
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  S2: other antiperspirant one was, which is. Sure. Unsure. Sure. Do
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  S2: you remember that one?
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  S3: No, I.
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  S2: Don't. Oh boy. So the whole thing was like people
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  S2: saying sure, with confidence. And then they'd throw their hand
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  S2: up in the air, like they're raising their hand and
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  S2: then be like, unsure. And that person would like, only
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  S2: half raise their hand. That's hilarious. One of those things
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  S2: that went viral probably, uh, probably late 90s. Do you
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  S2: remember it?
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  S4: I, I do, I do.
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  S1: She's not, she's not a rave reviewer. How about the
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  S1: Old Spice commercial for soap for dudes?
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  S3: Best ever spice Commercials. Those things were the most insane.
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  S3: Just like anything that came out of someone's brain at
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  S3: any moment.
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  S1: No, no. Who is the guy that they did the
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  S1: animated like he's scrubbing in the in in a shower
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  S1: in Fiji, and then all of a sudden he gets transported.
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  S3: I don't remember. So I know, I don't know that
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  S3: it used to be it used to be Terry Crews.
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  S1: Oh yeah. Terry Crews.
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  S3: And then they changed it to another guy and I
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  S3: don't know who he was.
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  S1: Get rid of the new guy.
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  S2: Powerful testimony by the way. Terry Crews does. Does he? Yeah.
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  S2: He's got got a got a wife.
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  S3: Yeah I love him. I didn't know.
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  S2: That. Yeah. And okay, so we've got a bit of
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  S2: a correction. Do you want to give Carl the correction.
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  S4: Oh thank you. Hear.
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  S2: Good. All under was not deodorant.
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  S4: It was not.
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  S1: It was underwear. That's right. It's it's underwear. Makes me. Yeah.
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  S4: I just want to make sure we have the correct.
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  S1: Information under is underwear.
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  S4: Going out.
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  S1: Wow.
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  S2: Because that's.
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  S1: My. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I'd remembered it
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  S1: was underwear.
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  S4: I figured.
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  S1: That. Sorry about that. Makes me feel so good.
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  S2: We'll just move on.
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  S3: That's really funny.
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  S1: Thanks, Sally. You could have just let that one slide,
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  S1: and we could have gotten some corrective text messages, but no. Alli, just.
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  S4: Well, I'm the one that.
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  S3: Alli did not.
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  S4: Just.
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  S3: Want us to be informed. Alli thought it was very funny,
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  S3: that it was incorrect.
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  S1: Alli wants to highlight its undergarments.
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  S2: No, I just thought it was funny that you just
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  S2: proclaimed that it was this campaign for deodorant, that it
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  S2: was like, oh, wait.
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  S3: You did have kind of a false memory cause you
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  S3: were giving us details of the commercial that then wouldn't
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  S3: have been accurate.
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  S1: I thought that was true. Are we missing it? For sure.
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  S1: Super dye.
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  S4: For sure.
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  S1: So makes me feel so good.
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  S3: Makes me tingle all over. Makes Irish spring. Wasn't that
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  S3: Irish spring?
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  S4: Maybe you're combining both of them.
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  S1: Oh, I feel good all under. That is a different one.
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  S1: I feel good all under that is undergarments. I didn't
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  S1: mention that one. I didn't say feel good all under.
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  S3: Yes you did. That was how we started this whole thing.
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  S1: Oh it was oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. I'm so sorry.
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  S1: The good all under. You're right about that. That was not.
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  S1: Makes me feel so good. Makes me tingle all over.
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  S1: What's that one?
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  S3: That was the one that I remembered that I. That
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  S3: is confused. That's that was like Irish spring soap or something. Okay.
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  S1: So so yeah, I feel good. All under is undergarments.
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  S1: That is true. I stand corrected and rebuked.
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  S4: And and then all over is the Saint Ives lotion.
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  S3: Oh, Saint, I'm.
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  S2: Glad we've got all this cleared up for you.
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  S1: Here to help boom crew.
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  S2: It's going to be a good Wednesday. Well, you're listening
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  S2: to Carl and crew here on Moody Radio. Coming up,
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  S2: let's have an honest conversation about something that gets a
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  S2: little controversial in church circles. You say purity culture. What
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  S2: do we mean by that? Do we deconstruct? Can it
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  S2: be redeemed? What are your memories of some of those
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  S2: teachings that were very popular in the 90s? An honest
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  S2: conversation with Dana Gresh coming up.
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  S5: She was trying to earn her way to God, but
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  S5: God showed her she didn't have to. Ali is in
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  S5: the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
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  S2: Well, it's one of the most debated conversations in the
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  S2: church today. I'm going to give you two words, and
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  S2: you're probably going to have a strong opinion even before
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  S2: we get to the full conversation. Purity culture. Does that
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  S2: mean anything to you? Do you have associations, negative or positive?
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  S2: As a kid who grew up in the 90s, I
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  S2: have a lot of things that come to mind. One
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  S2: of them is an illustration that I remember seeing that
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  S2: involved glasses of water and bags of chips. So I'll
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  S2: give you the quick version. There were cups of water
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  S2: that were kept, just poured out. It was just the water.
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  S2: And then there were other cups of water where kids
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  S2: were asked to kind of chew on a couple of
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  S2: Doritos or chips and then take a sip of water
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  S2: and then kind of spit that back into the cup.
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  S2: And so I know this is getting gross, but the
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  S2: obvious illustration that you were supposed to see was that
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  S2: when you give yourself to someone else sexually, you are
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  S2: no longer that pure, clean water you now become. You
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  S2: carry parts of other people with you. And there certainly
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  S2: was a kind of a fear element to it. But
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  S2: there was also a sense that for those people who
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  S2: had missed it, who had not kept themselves pure, it
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  S2: was a sense of shame, even, that maybe there was
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  S2: no way to get back to that pure, clean water.
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  S2: I want to bring in a special guest. I know
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  S2: that's a strange setup, but I'm sharing honestly my memory.
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  S2: Dannah Gresh, she is the author of And The Bride
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  S2: Wore White and she has bravely tackled purity culture where
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  S2: we've been, but also where we are going. Do you
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  S2: remember that illustration, Dana? Is that one that you saw
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  S2: or had any experience with?
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  S6: I never heard that one. That is. So I, I,
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  S6: I'm listening to it. It's so gross. And I never
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  S6: saw the rose without petals. I never saw the chewed
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  S6: up bubblegum. I never saw the chips and water. I
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  S6: never saw any of those. I was a youth leader
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  S6: in the 90s, so I wasn't, you know, a teenager,
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  S6: but I was watching my youth girls, um, process what
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  S6: was then called the purity movement and was very applauded. Like,
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  S6: you know, every Disney celebrity, the Jonas Brothers had purity rings.
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  S6: Miley Cyrus had a purity ring. Like it was huge
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  S6: and positively affirmed. And, um, and yet I had not
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  S6: waited until my wedding day. And so I felt a
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  S6: lot of discomfort with how the conversation was unfolding in
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  S6: real time. You know, there's a lot of people that
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  S6: are uncomfortable with that now. I was like Uncomfortable. Then
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  S6: at the same time, I was so thankful the church
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  S6: was finally talking about sex. I was like, how can
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  S6: I be excited and also concerned at the same time?
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  S6: So I just I dared. Moody publishers helped me write
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  S6: my story. My. I was not the poster child for purity.
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  S6: And I just said, I think we're using this word purity,
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  S6: not according to the scriptures. Can we use it more accurately?
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  S6: Can we handle it more carefully? And I expected to be,
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  S6: you know, I was the chewed up bubble gum. So
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  S6: I didn't expect anyone to read the book. But it
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  S6: went crazy because I wasn't alone. There were people who
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  S6: had concerns then. My concern now is that not that
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  S6: people are excited about the word purity, but that they're
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  S6: just discounting it and saying, we shouldn't use this word. Well,
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  S6: it's a Bible word. So we got to figure it out.
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  S6: And there are hearts that were hurt by that time
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  S6: in in our church history, and there are hearts that
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  S6: were healed by that time in our church history and
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  S6: their hearts that were kept on a road of, of
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  S6: health because of that time in history. And it's really complicated,
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  S6: but we can't just sweep it under the carpet because
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  S6: hearts are unfolding with truth or untruth right now.
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  S2: Dana Gresh with us right now, international best selling author, speaker,
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  S2: media personality, the book and The Bride Wore White more
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  S2: than 300,000 copies sold. How has the conversation around purity
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  S2: changed over the years? We've I mean, no question. There
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  S2: was a lot of things that were that the church
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  S2: got wrong. But what remains true?
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  S6: Well, what remains true is that what makes us pure
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  S6: is our standing in Christ. And that's what really brought
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  S6: me healing is there's a verse in, I think it's
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  S6: First John, where it says that one day we're going
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  S6: to see him and we're going to be pure as
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  S6: he is pure because he's purified us. And I just
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  S6: suddenly was like, healed by reading that verse. Because first
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  S6: of all, it explained the fact that my behavior isn't
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  S6: what makes me pure or not pure. I may have
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  S6: behaviors that create a loss of innocence and that are sinful.
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  S6: I mean, we have to call it what it is.
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  S6: There are things in Scripture that Scripture calls sin that
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  S6: today we are celebrating as good, and that is not true.
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  S6: And we have to know what's hurtful and sinful and
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  S6: what separates us from God and from others. So I
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  S6: was like, okay, some of the things I've done have
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  S6: robbed me of my innocence and have created a distance
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  S6: between me and God, but he has fixed all of
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  S6: that through Jesus. That is what purifies me now. At
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  S6: the same time, that verse made me feel like it
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  S6: explained to me why I had so many feelings about
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  S6: the word purity. Because if Jesus purifies me and I
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  S6: want to be like Jesus, of course I'm going to
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  S6: have big thoughts about that as a Christian. So I
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  S6: don't know if that makes any sense, but like, it
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  S6: makes it for me. It settled the fact that I
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  S6: couldn't lose my purity. Only Jesus could give me my purity.
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  S6: And I still wanted my purity because it was a
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  S6: gift from him.
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  S2: Yeah. And, you know, when I think back to my
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  S2: own experiences, both as a teenager, I also actually did
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  S2: some abstinence education as a teacher myself, even in my
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  S2: young 20s. And, you know, there were presentations that I
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  S2: gave that I would go back and I would shift
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  S2: if I had to do it over again. And I
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  S2: think the biggest issue that I had is I think
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  S2: that the message was a where purity itself was a
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  S2: form of salvation, that if I could essentially keep the law,
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  S2: if I could keep myself pure and unstained, then that
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  S2: was kind of the end. And I honestly don't remember
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  S2: much of the conversation being around Jesus. It was kind
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  S2: of a self made righteousness where I could be righteousness,
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  S2: righteous by my own good decisions and choices. And so
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  S2: when I think back to that time, that's where I
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  S2: think at least my own interpretation of it and even
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  S2: my presenting of it was the biggest miss, was that
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  S2: it stripped away the the very essence of the gospel.
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  S2: And it put me and my choices at the center.
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  S2: What do you say?
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  S6: Well, here's the thing that's really hard about that is
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  S6: the people that that introduced the word purity in the
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  S6: 90s ish time period were actually trying to avoid that problem.
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  S6: So it just didn't work. Um, the word at the
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  S6: time was you said abstinence education, abstinence was the buzzword, right?
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  S6: Because people were dying of Aids. And, um, it was
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  S6: really scary and rightfully so. So educators, parents, politicians were
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  S6: all on board of this abstinence education title VI funding.
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  S6: And leaders in the church were watching youth, youth, kids,
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  S6: the kids themselves. The teenagers say, hey, let's do something
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  S6: about this. Like we we're the ones that know Jesus.
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  S6: He created sex. So we should be the ones to
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  S6: be able to speak to it with a lot of authority.
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  S6: This was a teenagers leading this right. And they, the
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  S6: concern that the adults had was that the word abstinence
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  S6: is not an adequate word for a person pursuing Christ.
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  S6: The reason being that God doesn't want us to abstain
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  S6: from anything. He wants us to hold sex as sacred.
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  S6: And that means it happens in the right context, with
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  S6: the right person in the right place, and that it
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  S6: pictures something. And what does it picture going back to
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  S6: what you were just saying, Ephesians 531 and 32 says,
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  S6: for this reason a man will leave his father and
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  S6: mother and be united to his wife, and the two
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  S6: will become one flesh. And then it's almost like the
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  S6: apostle Paul gets aid or sees a squirrel, because he says,
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  S6: I'm really talking about Christ and the church, the very
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  S6: thing you just mentioned. Um, that our salvation is in Christ.
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  S6: Marriage and sex is a picture of the love relationship
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  S6: that Jesus wants to have with us now, not in
• 14:54
  S6: a physical sense, but in an emotional sense. Right? And
• 14:58
  S6: so that's what's so sad about this. The movement said, let's,
• 15:01
  S6: let's come up with a different word because it's not
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  S6: about abstaining. It's about painting a picture of the gospel.
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  S6: It's so much bigger than virginity or not having sex
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  S6: or safe sex. Let's use the word purity because we
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  S6: are made pure in Christ. When you hear that, when
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  S6: you understand what the history is, you go, well, that
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  S6: makes a lot of sense. But somehow we still, I
• 15:26
  S6: think the lower it got down, um, the people, the
• 15:30
  S6: theologians that thought through that were on the right track,
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  S6: but the lower it got down and it got turned
• 15:36
  S6: into object lessons, really cheesy object lessons in our youth
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  S6: group basements. There was some damage done there, and that's
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  S6: the aftermath that we are sitting in right now. And
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  S6: we've got to fix it because purity still matters. If
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  S6: we could use something in this culture, I'll tell you,
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  S6: it's one thing. We could use a culture of purity
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  S6: because we are living in very impure times when what
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  S6: is evil is celebrated as good. And what God calls
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  S6: good is called evil.
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  S2: Dannah Gresh, our guest, she's the author of And the
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  S2: Bride Wore White Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity
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  S2: No matter Your past. So what do you see as
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  S2: the path forward as far as redeeming the purity culture,
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  S2: keeping what's true and what's good, and moving on past
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  S2: what was harmful? Maybe. Maybe not intentionally, but for so
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  S2: many people, you hear the word deconstructing. There's been a
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  S2: lot around this topic. What's the path forward?
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  S6: Two things. One is this conversation. You were just really honest.
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  S6: You shared a memory of an object lesson that was
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  S6: hurtful for you. You were transparent. You shared that you
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  S6: were teaching some of this stuff. That was very brave.
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  S6: I shared some of my hurt, some of my conviction.
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  S6: As we come together as women who have been hurt
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  S6: and men. Um, but I speak mostly to women. Women
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  S6: who've been hurt, women who've been healed, and women who say, well,
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  S6: my church wasn't legalistic. They did this with a lot
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  S6: of grace. And this movement this time produced a lot
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  S6: of good fruit in my life. As we come together
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  S6: and tell those stories, we're going to have a more
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  S6: honest conversation. But along with that, you mentioned deconstructing. We've
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  S6: got to go to the Word of God. That's that's
• 17:21
  S6: where that's where I think we're lacking right now. We're
• 17:23
  S6: going a lot to stories to decide what is true
• 17:27
  S6: and what is not true right now. That's not where
• 17:30
  S6: we find salvation. That's not where we find truth. We
• 17:32
  S6: find truth in the pages of Scripture. So we've got
• 17:35
  S6: to take our questions, move while we hear our stories
• 17:39
  S6: and share our stories, we then apply scripture to those stories.
• 17:43
  S6: And I think that's going to really help self-correct. But
• 17:45
  S6: what we cannot do is shove this under the carpet
• 17:49
  S6: and not use these words because they're God's words. Words like, um, man, woman,
• 17:55
  S6: sacred words, words like um, marriage, sacred word, words like um, virgin, virgin,
• 18:04
  S6: that's a sacred word. And we've got to use it. Careful, carefully.
• 18:07
  S6: And words like pure. We must redeem these words and
• 18:10
  S6: use them according to Scripture, for us to have healing
• 18:12
  S6: in the hearts of women and men, and also move
• 18:15
  S6: the next generation forward in a healthier conversation.
• 18:18
  S2: Dana Gresh, fantastic conversation this morning. And the bride wore
• 18:22
  S2: white seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity. No matter
• 18:26
  S2: your past important conversation, I hope that you will check
• 18:29
  S2: out this resource. Text white to 805 557898. Just text
• 18:35
  S2: that one word white 800 555 7898.
• 18:40
  S5: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to cast and Crew.
• 18:45
  S1: It's Carl and crew asking a really foundational first principle
• 18:50
  S1: kind of question here. If the foundation of your salvation
• 18:55
  S1: were off from the jump from the beginning, how would
• 19:00
  S1: you know? Now, I threw this out there to Allie
• 19:03
  S1: and she grabbed, I would say, probably the most fundamental answer.
• 19:09
  S1: And it's the plumb line of God's truth that's cited
• 19:12
  S1: in Amos seven, seven through 10 or 7 through eight,
• 19:16
  S1: something like that. But look it up. And it's the
• 19:20
  S1: essence of that whole passage is that God's saying, I've
• 19:24
  S1: put the plumb line before you, and it is the
• 19:29
  S1: plumb line of truth. So the question stands here. We'd
• 19:32
  S1: love to hear from you. 800, 555, 78. 98. We
• 19:37
  S1: got a couple answers coming in via text, but I'm
• 19:40
  S1: not even going to read them out. I'm going to
• 19:42
  S1: ask you guys to give us a call. Two. Two. Six. Eight.
• 19:46
  S1: I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I can't
• 19:48
  S1: see them all, but come on, give us a call
• 19:51
  S1: 805 557898. Why is this so important, Natalie?
• 19:58
  S4: So that's kind.
• 19:59
  S2: Of what I was going to ask you because, I mean,
• 20:01
  S2: obviously we know that when you use any sort of
• 20:04
  S2: building metaphor, if the foundation is off, they're going to
• 20:07
  S2: be many, many problems down the road, even if not
• 20:10
  S2: initially detected. You know, if you're if you've ever looked
• 20:13
  S2: at brand new construction, everything looks shiny and new and
• 20:16
  S2: the fixtures are new, but you need to know about
• 20:20
  S2: how that house was built. So, I mean, I guess
• 20:22
  S2: that that's what I would go to first is that there,
• 20:24
  S2: there will be problems down the road if the foundation
• 20:27
  S2: is off.
• 20:27
  S1: Yeah. At most basic level, you're spot on. There's going
• 20:31
  S1: to be problems later that are Consistent because the foundation
• 20:36
  S1: is wrong. And structurally, if you're building a house, it's
• 20:40
  S1: going to look really funky. It won't look right. Okay.
• 20:44
  S1: There's kind of one right there. It won't look right.
• 20:46
  S1: The further you go up, it's going to look off.
• 20:50
  S2: It will be visible.
• 20:52
  S1: Yeah. And I haven't even I've got five answers to
• 20:55
  S1: this thing in front of me here. By the way.
• 20:57
  S1: I'm going to turn this into a blog. I'm not
• 20:59
  S1: going to have it for you today. I'll have it
• 21:01
  S1: for you as soon as possible. Boom crew. Because I'm
• 21:03
  S1: so fired up about this, I can barely stand it.
• 21:05
  S1: This is so important. But yeah, it'll be visible is one.
• 21:10
  S1: The other reason that this is so important is a
• 21:14
  S1: lot of you love people who have a bad foundation
• 21:20
  S1: and they don't know it. And the question is, well,
• 21:24
  S1: what in the world can we do about this? And
• 21:27
  S1: I think sometimes we write this off of, well, there's
• 21:31
  S1: nothing I can do about it. I think that's a fallacy.
• 21:35
  S1: I think there's something we can do about it, which
• 21:38
  S1: is hopeful for people listening right now.
• 21:41
  S2: Yeah. And I, you know, we've had so many great
• 21:42
  S2: guests this week. I can't remember which of our guests
• 21:45
  S2: to attribute this to. But just thinking through that, the
• 21:48
  S2: answer that people give, why I think it was Dean
• 21:51
  S2: and Sarah who talked about this, that when people point
• 21:54
  S2: to their reason for being a Christian as anything other
• 21:58
  S2: than the foundational aspect of Jesus Christ, the gospel, the cross,
• 22:03
  S2: the I mean, even if they don't have all the
• 22:04
  S2: perfect language, but when many, many people will point to
• 22:08
  S2: things like, oh, well, I was raised in a Christian
• 22:09
  S2: home or will. I've been a Christian my whole life.
• 22:12
  S2: Like my whole family is a Christian. I go to
• 22:14
  S2: church every week, and a lot of those types of
• 22:17
  S2: answers can reveal where the foundation is off.
• 22:20
  S1: Yeah. And then the question is, what do you do
• 22:23
  S1: to help that person? Let's say you really love that person.
• 22:28
  S1: Let's say that the love of Jesus first John has
• 22:31
  S1: been so shown in your hearts that now you have
• 22:34
  S1: a love for others. A great commandment love the Lord
• 22:36
  S1: your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength,
• 22:38
  S1: and love your neighbor as yourself. So that's an action.
• 22:42
  S1: We're called to do something about it. And I think
• 22:45
  S1: a lot of us have been like, almost like hand-wringing
• 22:48
  S1: or praying. And that's good. That's good hand-wringing. No praying good.
• 22:54
  S1: But the question is, what can we do? And the
• 22:58
  S1: reason this question is so important is I think a
• 23:00
  S1: lot of us think, ah, nothing I can do. So
• 23:03
  S1: if the foundation of your salvation was off from the beginning,
• 23:10
  S1: how would you know? And the reason that's so important
• 23:12
  S1: to know is you can look at it yourself. Just
• 23:14
  S1: take that question. Just answer that, but then extrapolate that to, whoa,
• 23:20
  S1: there's other people out there whose eternal lives and the
• 23:23
  S1: abundant life is at risk right now. And I don't
• 23:25
  S1: know what to do about it, but Scripture says there
• 23:28
  S1: are things we can do. Got phone calls coming in.
• 23:30
  S1: This is awesome. So the question is, if the foundation
• 23:34
  S1: of your salvation was off from the jump from the beginning,
• 23:38
  S1: how would you know? What do you find in Scripture
• 23:42
  S1: that helps people see that their foundation is off from
• 23:50
  S1: the jump? 805. Five. Five, 78, 98. Give us a
• 23:55
  S1: call 800 555 7898 your calls straight ahead.
• 24:03
  S5: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 24:06
  S5: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 24:09
  S1: AM I having joy welling up in my heart today?
• 24:12
  S4: You are. You're pumped up this morning.
• 24:14
  S1: Yeah, I really am. This question is so vital, not
• 24:18
  S1: just for ourselves, but for people that we love and
• 24:21
  S1: the world around us. I think sometimes we're like, oh,
• 24:25
  S1: you know, what do we do? You know, somebody's got
• 24:28
  S1: their foundation offer. I suspect they do. What do I do?
• 24:32
  S1: Someone I love? Someone I was raised with a sibling,
• 24:35
  S1: a parent, um, a child. And we're like, oh, what
• 24:39
  S1: do we do? So the question is, if the foundation
• 24:42
  S1: of your salvation was off from the very beginning, from
• 24:46
  S1: the jump, how would you know? 805, 55, 78, 98? Ali,
• 24:53
  S1: let's go to the phone lines. Who do we have?
• 24:55
  S2: Yeah. Let's go to Joe calling in this morning from Demotte, Indiana.
• 24:58
  S2: Tell us, how would you know if the foundation of
• 25:00
  S2: your salvation was off from the very beginning? Where? What
• 25:03
  S2: do you have for us?
• 25:06
  S7: Hey. Yeah, I was just sharing that. Um, I just
• 25:10
  S7: learned in, in First John three this morning, it talks
• 25:13
  S7: about the love that God has for us and that
• 25:16
  S7: he laid down his life for us and that we're
• 25:18
  S7: supposed to love each other, not shut our hearts from them.
• 25:22
  S7: And then the encouragement really was that how do we
• 25:25
  S7: know that we love God? It's because God is greater
• 25:28
  S7: than our hearts. We don't have to worry about how
• 25:30
  S7: we perform. We need to trust in the fact that
• 25:34
  S7: Jesus died for us and has a plan for our lives.
• 25:37
  S7: And if we're loving each other and not holding on
• 25:40
  S7: to the world's goods, and just being willing to trust
• 25:44
  S7: in God to provide for us, we can provide for
• 25:46
  S7: each other. And that's how we show the love of
• 25:49
  S7: Christ to everyone.
• 25:51
  S1: You added one to my list. That's awesome Joe. That's dynamite.
• 25:54
  S1: First John three. That is absolutely spot on. You know,
• 26:01
  S1: if there's someone that has an absence of wanting to
• 26:04
  S1: really leverage. I go back to Matthew 25. We we
• 26:10
  S1: see all that we've been given, and we're willing to
• 26:12
  S1: pour that out for the sake of others. That's one
• 26:15
  S1: of the greatest evidences that our foundation is built good
• 26:18
  S1: from the jump. Way to go, John. From Dumont. Love that. Wow. Okay,
• 26:23
  S1: let's get some more here. Ali.
• 26:24
  S2: Yeah. Let's go to Edward calling in this morning from Cleveland, Ohio. Edward,
• 26:29
  S2: if the foundation of your salvation was off from the
• 26:31
  S2: very beginning, how would you know?
• 26:34
  S8: I would know, because when you go to church and
• 26:37
  S8: you give your life to Christ and, um, and you
• 26:42
  S8: come out and you basically just go back living, living
• 26:46
  S8: for the world and not for God, then to me
• 26:50
  S8: that tells you that your, your life is off. But
• 26:53
  S8: if you go out and you spread the gospel and
• 26:57
  S8: you live for God and do the things that God
• 27:00
  S8: commands you to do, then you know that you're on
• 27:02
  S8: the right path.
• 27:03
  S1: Yeah. And you know what, Edward? You're right on from Cleveland.
• 27:08
  S1: And what, what I, where I would go with that
• 27:10
  S1: would be Galatians five. We talked about this, I think
• 27:14
  S1: last week. I think, Allie, you were out. We were
• 27:18
  S1: talking about the freedom test and the freedom test in
• 27:21
  S1: is in Galatians five, because you've got the deeds of
• 27:24
  S1: the flesh and the fruit of the spirit. And I
• 27:26
  S1: think Paul put those in there to compare and contrast. Oh,
• 27:30
  S1: what's going on? Yeah. What's characteristic of me and I
• 27:33
  S1: love that last fruit of the spirit, which is self-control.
• 27:38
  S1: So what what a great way. Yeah. If if you're
• 27:41
  S1: totally absent of self-control, which is really a misnomer. It's
• 27:45
  S1: not self-control because it's the fruit of the spirit. But
• 27:48
  S1: if the Spirit of God isn't able to help you
• 27:51
  S1: control yourself, is there lordship opportunity? Could someone have that
• 27:58
  S1: in them? And it just needs to be cultivated? Yes.
• 28:00
  S1: But if the characteristic of your life is not exhibiting
• 28:04
  S1: the life of Christ. Right on good feedback here, Ali.
• 28:09
  S2: Really good. Let's squeeze in one more. Kevin from Cedar Lake, Indiana.
• 28:13
  S2: You get the final word. If the foundation of your
• 28:15
  S2: salvation was off from the beginning, how would you know?
• 28:19
  S9: Well, I think scripture would reveal it to you in
• 28:21
  S9: this verse, and I'm going to paraphrase it, but, Ephesians
• 28:25
  S9: two 8 to 10. You are saved by grace through
• 28:29
  S9: faith in Christ, not of works, but it is the
• 28:32
  S9: gift of God, lest any man should boast. But we
• 28:36
  S9: were created in Christ to do good works and see
• 28:39
  S9: many people get that that backward. They put the cart
• 28:42
  S9: before the horse and think, I got to be good enough.
• 28:44
  S9: I got to do this. I got to do that
• 28:45
  S9: to earn God's favor. And we could never do that.
• 28:48
  S9: And it's because we have his favor and we receive
• 28:50
  S9: his gift that we are able to be saved. Yeah.
• 28:53
  S9: And I think if you if you read that and
• 28:56
  S9: that hits you like it hits me or it did
• 28:59
  S9: a while ago, then you know, something's off.
• 29:02
  S1: Yeah, I love that. Kevin. Cedar Lake, Indiana. Yeah. That
• 29:05
  S1: is absolutely true. There's going to be an ease of
• 29:10
  S1: something now that to live for Christ that wasn't resident beforehand.
• 29:16
  S1: And it's like it's real. And when someone's really in Christ,
• 29:20
  S1: those works are not something that they're measuring and conjuring
• 29:25
  S1: and feeling like I ought to. There's way more of
• 29:28
  S1: a supernatural overflow of that to people around us.
• 29:32
  S3: Yeah. You know, I love what you just said there
• 29:34
  S3: about the I shoulds or I ought to. I read
• 29:36
  S3: this verse last night and it really stuck with me
• 29:38
  S3: from Romans ten, verse four. It says, For Christ is
• 29:41
  S3: the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
• 29:45
  S3: So the law still applies. We still follow, we still
• 29:48
  S3: do the things of the law because it's God's heart. We.
• 29:50
  S3: We stay close to God's heart, but we don't do
• 29:53
  S3: it to earn righteousness. Yes. We don't do it because
• 29:56
  S3: I ought to do this or I should do this,
• 29:58
  S3: or I have to check a box so God will
• 29:59
  S3: be happy with me. We do it because it's what
• 30:02
  S3: God does, and we love him, and we want to
• 30:04
  S3: be more like him. That's all.
• 30:05
  S1: Yeah. Yes. So what does God used in our life,
• 30:10
  S1: and what can we use in others to help them see,
• 30:13
  S1: to help us see if the foundation of our salvation
• 30:16
  S1: was off? From the very beginning, we had an illusion
• 30:18
  S1: of salvation. Maybe someone you love has that. And they're,
• 30:22
  S1: they're good people and that they're image bearers and they
• 30:24
  S1: do good stuff. And they were raised in church. But
• 30:28
  S1: was there really a salvific moment of transformation? Let me
• 30:32
  S1: give you the ones that I have, and I'll put
• 30:34
  S1: it in a blog soon. But here they are. Ali
• 30:36
  S1: kicked us off. It's the Word of God, the plumb
• 30:40
  S1: line of truth. Amos seven, seven and eight, I believe,
• 30:43
  S1: right in there. Secondly, it's the teaching or the preaching
• 30:48
  S1: of the Word of God. Romans ten. How beautiful. It's
• 30:51
  S1: quote from Isaiah. How beautiful are the feet of those
• 30:53
  S1: who bring good news. How in the world are they
• 30:54
  S1: going to be changed unless somebody tells them, right? So
• 31:00
  S1: keeping up with the proclamation of the word, this doesn't
• 31:03
  S1: mean pounding people over the head. But if you get
• 31:06
  S1: an opportunity to bring the gospel to someone over a
• 31:09
  S1: cup of coffee, dynamite the Holy Spirit, John 168 convicts
• 31:15
  S1: the world regarding sin, righteousness, and judgment. We often think
• 31:19
  S1: that's the only factor here, boy. If the Holy Spirit
• 31:22
  S1: didn't convict him. I'm out, but I go on. There's
• 31:25
  S1: other things. A good friend, you might say. Really? Yeah.
• 31:32
  S1: Proverbs 276 says, faithful are the wounds of a friend.
• 31:36
  S1: A good friend can love someone and say, you know what?
• 31:41
  S1: This might hurt, but I need you to hear my heart.
• 31:45
  S1: The foundation of your salvation may be off right from
• 31:49
  S1: the jump. And there you talk about justification by faith alone.
• 31:56
  S1: Putting all that you are into the hands of God.
• 31:59
  S1: So there's another one. I've got another one for you.
• 32:02
  S1: The good life. Matthew 516. Let your light so shine
• 32:07
  S1: before men, that they will see your good deeds and
• 32:10
  S1: glorify your father who is in heaven. So because of
• 32:14
  S1: the other calls that came in here, in fact, one
• 32:16
  S1: that would call in and I jotted it down, they
• 32:18
  S1: they didn't stay on air here. But here's another one.
• 32:22
  S1: The feeling of isolation or aloneness or emptiness. All you
• 32:26
  S1: have to do is go to John 1224. What do
• 32:28
  S1: you find there? Unless a kernel of wheat falls to
• 32:32
  S1: the ground and dies, it remains alone. If there's a
• 32:37
  S1: sense of isolation or emptiness or selfness in someone, grab
• 32:43
  S1: that moment and point them back to Jesus. So there's.
• 32:48
  S1: Isn't it encouraging that there's lots of ways that we
• 32:52
  S1: can help ourselves or others? See if the foundation of
• 32:56
  S1: their salvation is off from the very beginning.
• 32:59
  S2: And I'm glad, I'm glad that you said you're going
• 33:01
  S2: to put that in a blog. I'll repeat that because
• 33:03
  S2: I know you're listening. Going, I didn't catch number two
• 33:05
  S2: and I didn't. That will be coming as soon as
• 33:08
  S2: as soon as we get that together.
• 33:10
  S1: It takes a little bit of work, but I promise
• 33:12
  S1: you we will put that together. This kind of stuff
• 33:15
  S1: puts fire in my belly.
• 33:17
  S2: Ali, I know, I know, This is great. Great. Half
• 33:21
  S2: hour going.
• 33:22
  S5: It's Carl and crew on Moody radio.
• 33:26
  S1: Is it possible to make a decision? And it doesn't
• 33:32
  S1: have any effect on your life. Well, we can see
• 33:35
  S1: that in almost everything under the sun. Right.
• 33:38
  S2: Give me a for example.
• 33:39
  S1: Oh my goodness. I've decided I am going to be
• 33:42
  S1: a marathoner.
• 33:43
  S4: Oh, okay. Yeah.
• 33:44
  S1: And I never put on my shoes and go train.
• 33:49
  S4: Yeah.
• 33:50
  S1: I mean, that's a problem.
• 33:51
  S3: Yeah. You won't.
• 33:52
  S4: Do.
• 33:52
  S2: It. Are you a marathoner? So decision only.
• 33:55
  S1: So give me some other decisions that we make. And
• 33:58
  S1: yet they don't have any oomph to it.
• 34:02
  S2: Yeah. I mean, I decided that this summer I was
• 34:05
  S2: going to have all these activities and homemade meals and.
• 34:09
  S2: And yet, here we are. Yeah. Well, into July. And,
• 34:12
  S2: you know, it's the typical kind of what can feel
• 34:15
  S2: like summer chaos. My decision in advance didn't necessarily help
• 34:20
  S2: me get there.
• 34:21
  S1: You got summer.
• 34:21
  S2: Left.
• 34:22
  S1: You still got summer left. Uh, give me one, Jonathan.
• 34:25
  S1: Come on.
• 34:25
  S3: I decided I was going to fix that squeaky door
• 34:31
  S3: in my house, and three months later, my door is
• 34:36
  S3: still squeaking.
• 34:38
  S1: Yeah, it's it's a rudimentary kind of, uh, kind of
• 34:42
  S1: a clunky analogy for spiritual, uh, transformation, but it's not.
• 34:50
  S1: And this is the big discussion we've been having here
• 34:53
  S1: this week off and on with different guests. But I
• 34:55
  S1: want to ask you a simple question because clearly for
• 35:02
  S1: myself and Jonathan, somewhat differently, maybe for Ali, but clearly
• 35:07
  S1: for Jonathan and myself, we had both made decisions to
• 35:11
  S1: follow Jesus, but there was nothing salvific about it.
• 35:16
  S3: Correct.
• 35:16
  S1: So I decided to walk down an aisle, but I
• 35:20
  S1: wasn't fully surrendered to Christ. In fact, I thought I
• 35:23
  S1: was because I thought that's what you do. Walk down
• 35:25
  S1: an aisle, for crying out loud. Get to that front.
• 35:28
  S1: If you can muster the courage to get to the
• 35:30
  S1: front step. Man, you're all good if you can. If
• 35:34
  S1: you can kneel on that carpet just for a few scary,
• 35:38
  S1: you know, minutes, you're going to be all good.
• 35:41
  S2: And it's possible for some people that's the case. I mean, it.
• 35:43
  S1: Is possible that that is the case because the Spirit
• 35:47
  S1: of God can move in any moment, at any time.
• 35:51
  S3: 100%.
• 35:53
  S1: But it's also possible that that decision can be a
• 35:58
  S1: source of deep spiritual deception.
• 36:02
  S3: Yes.
• 36:02
  S1: And I'm not even going to go to Matthew seven
• 36:05
  S1: and Matthew 25 right now, but it's possible. So a
• 36:09
  S1: quick question. We got to get you in here quickly.
• 36:11
  S1: Were you one of those like Jonathan and myself, who
• 36:15
  S1: had decided, I'm going to lift my hand in the
• 36:19
  S1: air while no one's looking around. I'm going to walk
• 36:22
  S1: down an aisle. I'm going to get baptized. But years later,
• 36:26
  S1: you found out, wow, I was never born again. Like
• 36:31
  S1: one texture. We had come in here and said, this
• 36:33
  S1: is now three years ago. I said, man, I got
• 36:36
  S1: some bad information.
• 36:38
  S2: About the gospel.
• 36:39
  S1: Yeah, about the gospel. And it led me to make
• 36:42
  S1: a decision. But it wasn't salvific, didn't save my soul.
• 36:47
  S1: So you can go to passages like John 1224, unless
• 36:51
  S1: a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies,
• 36:53
  S1: it remains alone. So an undying decision, undying to self
• 36:58
  S1: is empty promises, empty promises you make to yourself. And
• 37:04
  S1: we see this because I can decide to be a
• 37:06
  S1: marathoner and never put on shoes. I'm never going to
• 37:08
  S1: be a marathoner.
• 37:09
  S3: Yeah. I mean, I, I'm thinking of, of taking that
• 37:13
  S3: analogy just a little further, it's like in high school,
• 37:16
  S3: if I said, you know what, I'm gonna be a
• 37:17
  S3: football player. And I walk up to the sign up
• 37:20
  S3: sheet for tryouts and I put Jonathan rinky on it,
• 37:23
  S3: sign up. I'm a football player now, and I never
• 37:27
  S3: go to the tryouts and I don't ever train and
• 37:31
  S3: I don't ever practice. And Friday night comes and I
• 37:34
  S3: show up for that high school football game and I say, coach,
• 37:38
  S3: put me in coach. And he goes, who are you?
• 37:41
  S1: I put that's that's a powerful analogy there, big dog.
• 37:45
  S3: I put my name on the sheet. I made a
• 37:47
  S3: decision that I was gonna do this, and that's all
• 37:51
  S3: I did. And then I never did anything else.
• 37:54
  S1: Making a metaphor. That's really good. Yeah, yeah. Coach put
• 37:57
  S1: me in. Well, dude, you're not on the roster. That's
• 37:59
  S1: Matthew 25. Yeah. Woo. So really quickly here fired up.
• 38:06
  S1: Even if you've called in before and there's some I've
• 38:09
  S1: got an alternative motive here. Nothing That's scary, but I
• 38:13
  S1: would love to have you call in right now. You,
• 38:16
  S1: you you had made that decision, but it wasn't salvific,
• 38:21
  S1: didn't save you. And then you realize, whoa, I was
• 38:26
  S1: an unbroken kernel of wheat, but now I'm broken. Give
• 38:30
  S1: us a call right now, if that's your story, just quickly,
• 38:33
  S1: 805 557898. Give us a jingle right now 805 557898.
• 38:42
  S1: Give us a jingle.
• 38:43
  S3: Jingle a jingle.
• 38:44
  S1: Where'd that come.
• 38:44
  S3: From? I'm not sure. I think it's when the phones
• 38:46
  S3: used to go ding ding ding ding ding NE NE
• 38:48
  S3: NE NE NE.
• 38:48
  S1: That's it, that's it. Sounded like a jingle.
• 38:50
  S3: They don't do it anymore.
• 38:51
  S5: Your spiritual pit stop to keep you going in the race.
• 38:55
  S5: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 38:58
  S1: Yeah, man. Passion. The Lord will provide. I at least
• 39:01
  S1: want to get one in here. Robert. First time caller. Bloomington, Indiana.
• 39:05
  S1: Thanks for calling in. You made a decision for Christ
• 39:08
  S1: but weren't really saved. Now you are. What's your story? Thanks, Robert.
• 39:13
  S10: Um, yeah, I was a, uh, a lifelong, uh, self-medicating and, uh, whatever.
• 39:21
  S10: Got baptized in, uh, nine years. It took nine years. Really. Um, and, uh, then, yeah, I, wow,
• 39:34
  S10: I got in an argument with my wife and spoke
• 39:40
  S10: to her in ways we're not supposed to speak to anyone. And, uh,
• 39:45
  S10: so yeah, the next morning, uh, I was folding a
• 39:50
  S10: load of laundry and, um, I was convicted of, of how,
• 39:58
  S10: I guess delusional I was. And there you go on
• 40:01
  S10: my face, uh, on my living room floor, and boom,
• 40:05
  S10: it's been seven years of freedom. Uh, freedom I never knew.
• 40:10
  S10: And that said, I'm still walking out. So, uh, it's
• 40:15
  S10: a whole nother ball game, though. Once he came for him.
• 40:18
  S1: Amen. Robert. That is so cool, man. So honest. So vulnerable.
• 40:24
  S1: Stay on the horn. You're getting Carl and crew prize pack.
• 40:26
  S1: That's that's honest. And that takes courage because a lot
• 40:32
  S1: of people don't want to talk about this reality, even
• 40:34
  S1: though it's warned of in Scripture.
• 40:37
  S3: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Jesus warns of it. He gives
• 40:40
  S3: the the different types of soil. And I think of
• 40:42
  S3: what Robert was sharing when he said I was a
• 40:44
  S3: self medicator my whole life. And, and I got baptized
• 40:47
  S3: and was doing religion that.
• 40:49
  S1: For nine years.
• 40:50
  S3: A decision like that or getting baptized can. And Jesus
• 40:53
  S3: describes it in the in the parable of the soils
• 40:56
  S3: is that that can kind of be a self-medication, almost.
• 40:59
  S3: They initially receive it with joy. Oh my goodness, I'm
• 41:02
  S3: so excited. I'm so excited. I've done this thing. I'm free.
• 41:05
  S3: And then it's just the soil was shallow and it
• 41:09
  S3: gets rocky and they're not rooted in anything.
• 41:12
  S1: Here's the danger with Robert's story. Here's the danger. People
• 41:18
  S1: listen to Robert story and they go, yeah, sure enough,
• 41:20
  S1: that guy was self-medicate. And then you go, and you're
• 41:23
  S1: probably right. He was using substances. Here's the greatest danger,
• 41:27
  S1: according to Jesus of self-medication. You ready for it? Self righteousness.
• 41:32
  S1: Law abiders.
• 41:33
  S3: 100%.
• 41:37
  S1: Yeah.
• 41:37
  S3: You have to be convinced that your righteousness can never
• 41:41
  S3: medicate anything for you, because your righteousness is nothing without Jesus.
• 41:45
  S2: I mean, that's why the good person delusion is so
• 41:48
  S2: strong is because most people, you know, they believe for
• 41:52
  S2: the expression that people tend to believe the best about
• 41:54
  S2: themselves and the worst about other people. And so we
• 41:57
  S2: look at it's easy to look at our lives. And
• 42:00
  S2: you can always find people who they're demonstratively way more.
• 42:06
  S2: It feels like way more off. Like their their lives
• 42:09
  S2: are messy, their in addictions, they're this or they're that.
• 42:12
  S2: And we can always kind of prop ourselves up by going, well,
• 42:15
  S2: I'm not, I'm not, I'm not perfect, but I'm not
• 42:18
  S2: like that.
• 42:21
  S1: It's the biggest deal, man. If in fact, it's just
• 42:25
  S1: hitting me like a thunderbolt. The biggest warning of Jesus
• 42:29
  S1: is not the guys that and I don't know what
• 42:32
  S1: you medicated with back in the first century. I got
• 42:34
  S1: to figure this one out because there's alcohol for sure.
• 42:38
  S1: That would that was there. I don't know if there
• 42:40
  S1: were other organic plants like we do with coca leaves,
• 42:44
  S1: and we crunch it down and turn it into cocaine, right?
• 42:48
  S1: I mean.
• 42:49
  S3: I'm sure there had to have been.
• 42:50
  S1: There had to have been stuff that you could put
• 42:53
  S1: in a bowl and smoke something. But the tendency is
• 42:57
  S1: to think, oh yeah, that poor sucker, that poor sucker.
• 43:01
  S1: You look at Carl's story and go, yeah, cocaine. The
• 43:04
  S1: greater danger, according to Jesus, is smug self-righteousness, and you
• 43:08
  S1: don't even see yourself as smug or self-righteous.
• 43:10
  S4: Totally.
• 43:12
  S2: Totally.
• 43:14
  S1: Steven, Michigan. Come on in here, man. We just got
• 43:16
  S1: a quick second. What's your story, bro?
• 43:19
  S11: All right. Yeah. I grew up in the church, and
• 43:22
  S11: I thought that I was in I went to to
• 43:26
  S11: all the services. I said my profession of faith as
• 43:29
  S11: a teenager. And then, uh, Christ showed me that I
• 43:33
  S11: could know all the right answers, but I didn't know him.
• 43:38
  S11: And it was through my father's death that, uh, that
• 43:42
  S11: he showed me that, um, I was, uh, it was
• 43:46
  S11: in my 30s and, uh, my father was my best friend.
• 43:51
  S11: And when he died, I thought to myself as I
• 43:55
  S11: was in his workshop, I thought, you know, if he
• 43:58
  S11: was right here, if Papa was right here, and I
• 44:00
  S11: couldn't see him or hear him, I would still know.
• 44:05
  S11: He's right here. You know, when you get so close
• 44:08
  S11: to somebody, you know their presence. And the next question
• 44:11
  S11: I knew was from the Holy Spirit. And that question
• 44:14
  S11: was here. I have been calling God my Father, and
• 44:19
  S11: he's supposed to be a better father. And if he
• 44:21
  S11: was here right now and I couldn't see him or
• 44:24
  S11: hear him, would I know that he's right there? And
• 44:27
  S11: the answer at that time was no. It was no.
• 44:32
  S11: I knew all the right answers. I knew all the
• 44:35
  S11: right things, but I did not know him. Boom. Brother
• 44:39
  S11: Matthew seven card and threw that at me and said,
• 44:42
  S11: I don't know you, but at the same time he
• 44:46
  S11: lit a fire in me that I could know him,
• 44:49
  S11: and I could know him through his word. And for
• 44:52
  S11: some people, they're like a slow cooker where God is
• 44:55
  S11: slowly pouring into him. But for me, I was like
• 44:58
  S11: a rocket. And from then on he changed me. He
• 45:01
  S11: gave me a fire to go into his word, and
• 45:03
  S11: I can remember it. People would say like they were
• 45:07
  S11: born again. And, uh, I used to think those were
• 45:10
  S11: people that just held their hands up really high in church.
• 45:13
  S11: And I never knew that that was quite real.
• 45:18
  S1: Oh, bro. Dog, stay on the horn. I'm giving you
• 45:20
  S1: Carl and Price back. Boom, boom, boom, triple pick and
• 45:25
  S1: boom for both of you bros. This is the real deal, guys.
• 45:33
  S1: It's the real thing.
• 45:34
  S2: I mean, I think both of those stories are so relatable.
• 45:37
  S1: Yeah.
• 45:38
  S2: I mean, if you've ever had any experience of growing
• 45:41
  S2: up in a Christian home or, or being in it
• 45:44
  S2: for a time, or like you said, praying a prayer
• 45:46
  S2: and raising a hand, that can absolutely be the real
• 45:49
  S2: thing for some people. So we don't want to suggest
• 45:51
  S2: that it's that, that that act alone is, is like that.
• 45:55
  S2: It doesn't mean anything. I mean, there are many people, sure,
• 45:57
  S2: but there's also many people where it's something that you
• 46:01
  S2: do and then you go on living your life and thinking, well, yeah,
• 46:05
  S2: I prayed the prayer. I raised a hand. I walked
• 46:06
  S2: an aisle. So I'm good with God.
• 46:08
  S1: Spiritually busy. Um. Religiously busy. Um, how dare you say
• 46:12
  S1: many though, Ali. That's kind of oh that's right.
• 46:16
  S3: Jesus.
• 46:17
  S1: Jesus said.
• 46:17
  S3: That.
• 46:18
  S2: It's sobering.
• 46:20
  S1: It really is. Hang on, Doctor Mabus, we love this guy,
• 46:25
  S1: don't we?
• 46:25
  S2: Yes we do. The difference between decision and surrender.
• 46:29
  S5: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
• 46:32
  S5: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 46:36
  S1: So we're talking first principles and we got to get
• 46:41
  S1: the foundation right here. Ali, do you agree with that?
• 46:45
  S4: I would.
• 46:46
  S2: Agree the foundation is always important.
• 46:48
  S1: With us today. Uh, one of our favorites, Doctor John Mabus,
• 46:52
  S1: associate professor and program head of pastoral studies here at
• 46:56
  S1: Moody Bible Institute. Okay, so let's jump in the deep end.
• 47:01
  S1: There's a big difference between decision and surrender and decisionism.
• 47:06
  S1: The history, as you're probably well aware, started about 250
• 47:09
  S1: years ago during the Great Awakenings, and it hasn't served
• 47:14
  S1: us all that well. What's your take on this, doc?
• 47:17
  S12: Yeah. You know, those two words, um, have such weight
• 47:20
  S12: to them. Decision and surrender. Now I'll just say up front,
• 47:23
  S12: you guys know I have a military background. Military folks,
• 47:27
  S12: we don't always like the word surrender just up front. Um.
• 47:32
  S1: But by the way, that almost spikes the word almost
• 47:34
  S1: more so because of your background.
• 47:36
  S13: That's exactly. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love we'll talk
• 47:38
  S13: about that maybe.
• 47:39
  S12: But when I think about the word surrender and as
• 47:41
  S12: you mentioned it, there's something about that keeps the ball
• 47:44
  S12: in my hands that, um, allows me to kind of
• 47:49
  S12: manage how far I'll go or what I'll do because
• 47:52
  S12: it's still my decision. And, um, so I think there's
• 47:56
  S12: a worthwhile conversation about how what is really, what do
• 47:59
  S12: we mean when we say, I made a decision to
• 48:01
  S12: follow Christ and versus surrender?
• 48:04
  S2: Doctor John Mabus, our guest this morning, associate professor and
• 48:07
  S2: program head of pastoral studies here at Moody Bible Institute.
• 48:10
  S2: He mentioned his military background. For the past 14 years,
• 48:13
  S2: he's served as a Navy chaplain, sharing the gospel and
• 48:17
  S2: caring for people in the context of military life. You know,
• 48:20
  S2: sometimes we get our language pretty confused around this topic
• 48:25
  S2: of salvation. And so some churches will say, make a
• 48:28
  S2: decision for Christ. Some people say, do you want to
• 48:31
  S2: give your heart to the Lord? Do you want to
• 48:33
  S2: surrender to Jesus? Do they all mean the same thing,
• 48:38
  S2: or do we need to be more precise with even
• 48:40
  S2: how we word this to people in the church?
• 48:44
  S12: You know, I think often in the scriptures, a big
• 48:47
  S12: word that we see regularly right up front is, is
• 48:50
  S12: where's our heart at? And what are we doing with
• 48:53
  S12: our heart? One word that's sometimes used is consecrated, meaning
• 48:56
  S12: it's given over to that it fully surrendered is what
• 49:00
  S12: we can talk about. Consecrated a word that our founder, D.L. Moody,
• 49:03
  S12: loved to think about how a man can be fully
• 49:06
  S12: consecrated to God. But this idea of heart condition. And
• 49:10
  S12: where is your heart? A whole heart towards God. A
• 49:12
  S12: double heart kind of divided heart that all plays into
• 49:16
  S12: how we think about following Christ and whether or not
• 49:19
  S12: we're making a decision that's sort of a sliver of
• 49:21
  S12: our life or a surrender. That's all of my life.
• 49:25
  S1: I'm thinking right now of James one, don't let a
• 49:28
  S1: double minded man or double souled man. It could be
• 49:31
  S1: better translated believe he will receive anything from the Lord.
• 49:35
  S1: It's interesting because that double solidness I'm not sure that
• 49:39
  S1: that's a warning just about belief for salvation, but it's
• 49:44
  S1: also sanctification. So it doesn't mean that we aren't going
• 49:49
  S1: to struggle after we are fully surrendered. After that grain
• 49:53
  S1: of wheat falls to the ground and dies and becomes
• 49:57
  S1: alive in Christ. It doesn't mean that we're going to
• 50:00
  S1: stop battling with being double hearted. Double souled, right, doc?
• 50:06
  S12: Absolutely. Because that same book that James starts with double
• 50:09
  S12: minded double solidness towards the end of it, James four eight,
• 50:13
  S12: he talks about draw near to God. Uh, he'll draw
• 50:15
  S12: near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify
• 50:18
  S12: your hearts, you double minded. It's this regular call for
• 50:22
  S12: us to say, keep drawing near to God, because there
• 50:24
  S12: are so many things that are pulling our souls or
• 50:26
  S12: our minds away from a full, wholehearted surrender to him.
• 50:30
  S1: So let's go back, though, to decision versus surrender. We've
• 50:36
  S1: discovered something here. Um, there's defining moments for any kind
• 50:40
  S1: of a morning show. And as we've seen through the
• 50:42
  S1: years here at Moody Radio, it's we're nearly celebrating 100
• 50:46
  S1: years on the 28th. And one of our defining moments
• 50:50
  S1: was when Billy Graham passed away. And I brought on
• 50:54
  S1: Erwin Lutzer, and we gave a bold gospel invitation, and
• 50:57
  S1: that began what is now resulted in many thousands of people,
• 51:02
  S1: most of whom have been raised in the church, many
• 51:05
  S1: doing mighty works. Matthew seven but not knowing Jesus personally.
• 51:11
  S1: The danger of Decisionism. C.H. Spurgeon, Charles Haddon Spurgeon had
• 51:16
  S1: a big problem with that because he was concerned that
• 51:19
  S1: people wouldn't know what they're getting into. What's your heart
• 51:21
  S1: on this?
• 51:23
  S12: Yeah. You know, I mean, sometimes when we're we're hearing
• 51:26
  S12: the story of Jesus and we see his call to us.
• 51:28
  S12: We don't always know what the right word to use is.
• 51:31
  S12: So I understand that, you know, people are hearing the
• 51:33
  S12: gospel invitation and there's different aspects to how they respond.
• 51:38
  S12: We value, as evangelicals the idea that people do make
• 51:41
  S12: a personal commitment, one that requires a decision to say
• 51:45
  S12: no to my old life and yes to Jesus. That
• 51:49
  S12: decision is is really important as a part of all
• 51:52
  S12: of our stories. I think a deeper level does. What's
• 51:55
  S12: the decision I'm making? Is it to give over an
• 51:58
  S12: area of my life that I feel like is, you know,
• 52:01
  S12: needs some improvement? Or is it a decision to believe
• 52:04
  S12: just some certain facts or is a decision to say, Jesus,
• 52:09
  S12: I need you for all of my life. So here's
• 52:11
  S12: all of my life. And that surrender, I think, is
• 52:14
  S12: that's the decision we're making, right? We're, we're saying, I'm
• 52:16
  S12: surrendering it all to you, Jesus. So I understand people
• 52:20
  S12: are are hearing the gospel story. Sometimes we get words right.
• 52:23
  S12: Sometimes we still struggle with what we mean by them.
• 52:25
  S12: But I think that's where discipleship comes in is to say, okay,
• 52:28
  S12: you had that original decision. What did you mean by that?
• 52:31
  S12: What does what does that look like from here?
• 52:33
  S2: Doctor John Mabus, our guest this morning. You know, I
• 52:36
  S2: had the experience, and I know many other kids who
• 52:38
  S2: were raised in church had this experience where I, I
• 52:41
  S2: raised my hand multiple times. I went forward definitely more
• 52:46
  S2: than once. I prayed the sinner's prayer. You know, sometimes
• 52:50
  S2: it would be, I just want to be sure. And
• 52:53
  S2: we have people who will text in new multiple times. And,
• 52:57
  S2: you know, there's this sense of, okay, if it's a
• 52:59
  S2: decision or if it's a surrender, well, I want to
• 53:02
  S2: do it again just to be sure. Speak to that
• 53:06
  S2: a little bit because, I mean, it's a common experience
• 53:09
  S2: of feeling like I kind of want to have that
• 53:12
  S2: assurance that maybe I'm lacking. And so maybe I do
• 53:14
  S2: it again.
• 53:15
  S12: I have the same way growing up. Ali. As far
• 53:17
  S12: as I think I've made that prayer to, to allow
• 53:20
  S12: Christ to be my savior several times because I just
• 53:22
  S12: wanted to make sure it was the right way or
• 53:24
  S12: did the right timing. But I think that probably actually,
• 53:27
  S12: while that is a, you know, a humble posture, it
• 53:30
  S12: still shows us a little bit that my view of
• 53:32
  S12: how the gospel works is still kind of connected to
• 53:35
  S12: how well I perform and if I've done the right things.
• 53:38
  S12: And so there is a way in which we kind
• 53:40
  S12: of come to Jesus and say, Jesus, here's who I am.
• 53:43
  S12: I know I can say different prayers, but I really
• 53:45
  S12: do need you and all of me. And it's not
• 53:49
  S12: so much about how many times we come to Jesus.
• 53:52
  S12: He forgives us of our sins. The father adopts us
• 53:55
  S12: into his family. We are secure in the father. We
• 53:58
  S12: do have to recognize that there is that longing to say, hey,
• 54:00
  S12: I want to be close to the father, I messed up,
• 54:02
  S12: I want to come back. But ultimately is our view
• 54:04
  S12: of the gospel that Jesus redeems us. He rescues us,
• 54:08
  S12: and we're his. That is a part of that wonderful surrender,
• 54:11
  S12: surrendering to what he the safety that he provides.
• 54:14
  S1: You know, there's a lot of evidence of what a
• 54:17
  S1: true disciple is, not least of which is that they
• 54:21
  S1: are followers of Jesus Christ. And because we've lacked discipleship
• 54:26
  S1: in the church, I wonder if that isn't, uh, the
• 54:30
  S1: biggest cause for questioning because we've not helped people journeying
• 54:35
  S1: down this path. I was just talking with a man
• 54:37
  S1: here about a week ago, and I just asked him,
• 54:40
  S1: where are you at with God? Have you ever really
• 54:43
  S1: looked into the mirror of your soul and said, I'm
• 54:45
  S1: a sinner, I need a Savior, I repent, I turn
• 54:48
  S1: everything I am over to Jesus Christ. He says, I have.
• 54:52
  S1: And then he went on to explain that he's. He's
• 54:55
  S1: never gone one step beyond that. He's been in Bible
• 54:59
  S1: preaching churches for 30 years, but he's never had the
• 55:02
  S1: privilege of being discipled. And so what that brings up
• 55:06
  S1: in him is a lot of lack of confidence of
• 55:09
  S1: where he stands with God. Do you feel that with him?
• 55:12
  S12: I absolutely, I think it's, um, you know, one way
• 55:15
  S12: when I was a young follower of Christ, I think
• 55:17
  S12: actually a student at Moody when I was just being
• 55:19
  S12: taught the basics of Christ, this idea of Jesus coming
• 55:23
  S12: into every nook and cranny of the home of our life.
• 55:26
  S12: And so we sort of surrendered to him or make
• 55:28
  S12: a decision for him to come in the front door. But, uh,
• 55:31
  S12: what it looks like for him to come to every
• 55:33
  S12: single room and begin to bring new life and transform
• 55:36
  S12: that we maybe just don't know what that's like. So
• 55:38
  S12: we know some facts about Jesus. We know we should
• 55:40
  S12: maybe get our anger under control, or watch our words
• 55:43
  S12: or be nice to our neighbor. But when it comes
• 55:45
  S12: to some of those deeper fears we have, or the
• 55:47
  S12: things of our past that we're still struggling with. We
• 55:50
  S12: just haven't experienced or what really walked with that those
• 55:54
  S12: areas with the Lord. And so part of that discipleship
• 55:57
  S12: is saying, hey, here's, here's every room. And I may
• 56:00
  S12: not know what that looks like right yet, but I
• 56:02
  S12: want some loving Christians around me as we explore what
• 56:05
  S12: following Jesus looks like in this particular area.
• 56:08
  S2: Doctor John Mabus, our guest this morning. Thank you so
• 56:10
  S2: much for the time. Associate professor and program head of
• 56:13
  S2: Pastoral studies here at Moody Bible Institute. If you want
• 56:16
  S2: more on Moody, just text Moody to 805 557898. Always
• 56:22
  S2: want to point you to where you can get great teaching,
• 56:24
  S2: more of great teaching, like what you're hearing this morning.
• 56:27
  S2: Text Moody to 805 557898.
• 56:31
  S5: A basketball mom who's mastered the dad joke. Ali is
• 56:36
  S5: in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody radio.
• 56:40
  S5: Bottom of the hour on Wednesday morning.
• 56:42
  S1: You know what time it is?
• 56:44
  S5: Making herself laugh no matter who joins her. It's time for.
• 56:48
  S5: Ali thinks it's funny.
• 56:51
  S2: There was a guy up on a ladder trying to
• 56:53
  S2: fix something on his roof.
• 56:58
  S1: I'm sorry. I I'm so getting in with you that
• 57:01
  S1: Ali thinks it's funny. I laugh ahead of time with you.
• 57:06
  S2: You know, he he was pretty secure, but when he reached,
• 57:09
  S2: he lost his balance a little bit. He wasn't very
• 57:11
  S2: high off the ground, but he did injure his arm
• 57:14
  S2: when he hit the ground. And so he goes to
• 57:17
  S2: the doctor and he says, doc, I, I think I
• 57:20
  S2: broke my arm in three places. I can kind of
• 57:22
  S2: feel it. What did the doctor say?
• 57:24
  S14: I don't know, I don't know.
• 57:25
  S2: You broke your arm in three places. Maybe. Consider not
• 57:28
  S2: going to those three places.
• 57:35
  S3: That's like a real a real dad joke. Like one
• 57:39
  S3: that a dad would actually tell.
• 57:40
  S2: Going full on dad?
• 57:41
  S1: No, no, that was dad all the way.
• 57:44
  S2: That was dad all the way.
• 57:44
  S1: Beautiful.
• 57:45
  S2: Here's a here's something I want you to consider. This
• 57:48
  S2: is in addition to kind of being a joke. It's
• 57:50
  S2: just a kind of makes you wonder. I am a
• 57:54
  S2: non I don't do any dairy. I only drink plant
• 57:58
  S2: based milks. Okay. So I prefer oat milk sometimes almond milk.
• 58:03
  S2: I don't prefer soy milk, but I want you to
• 58:05
  S2: consider something about soy milk. Have you ever seen it
• 58:07
  S2: in the in the, like the milk aisle? Yeah. Have
• 58:10
  S2: you ever considered that soy milk may just be regular milk?
• 58:15
  S2: Introducing itself in Spanish?
• 58:19
  S3: Hola. Soy milk.
• 58:24
  S2: Text jokes to 805 557898. Our Spanish speakers. I hope
• 58:31
  S2: you enjoyed that one. The text jokes to 805 557898.
• 58:36
  S2: Just food for thought.
• 58:38
  S15: Oh, that is really good. Oh, it just changed the labels.
• 58:42
  S1: Oh, text jokes to 805 557898.