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Commission Impossible: Senator Ron Johnson on DarkHorse · DarkHorse Podcast

• 0:02
  Hey folks, welcome to the DarkHorse podcast Inside Rail.(...) I have the distinct honor of sitting this morning with Senator Ron Johnson here in studio, which is the result of a strange and serendipitous meeting. We were literally hiking down the trail, Heather, Toby, and myself, and who should come the other direction, but Ron Johnson and his wife.
• 0:31
  And I recognize you. You recognize me and probably was incognito with you out of uniform. Even though I know you pretty well. I don't think I would have spotted you. I would have said hello and kept going. I'm really glad that you, uh, you did recognize, recognize us and stop us. And I will also just say that while you and I probably disagree on whether or not there is a creator, I think we would reach consensus on the fact that he works in some very mysterious ways. We'll agree on that.
• 1:03
  Sure. Yeah. All right. So, um, some, we're not going to have a Tucker Bret discussion here.
• 1:08
  I don't think no need for it. In fact, um, you know, in general, my sense is, uh, you know, I tend to think that those sorts of claims are metaphorical, but very important and that they, they stand in for things that we can't quite describe. Um, and lots of folks probably you feel that they're more literal, but I don't see a huge difference between those things. So anyway, there's nothing to disagree.
• 1:30
  It's a big mystery to me. That's all I can say.
• 1:32
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• 3:45
  You and I are both patriotic Americans.
• 3:50
  And well, let me just describe for a second what my experience of my own history with understanding those events has been and see how it dovetails with yours.
• 4:04
  I initially believed the official narrative enough that I, I've tried to reconstruct exactly where I became skeptical of what and when. And I can't do it. It's too long ago. But I know that I was sufficiently credulous that I supported the war in Afghanistan.(...) I did not support the war in Iraq. Going back, I wouldn't support either one of them, given what I think I now know.(...) But over the 24 years that have passed, I have become alarmed about obvious anomalies in this story.
• 4:46
  They have caused me to dig more deeply.
• 4:50
  I have spoken about my doubts and frankly, I see, I think we are obligated to have doubts when there is reason to, to express them, to discuss them. I would like nothing more than to have my doubts put to rest.
• 5:06
  I would love to discover that all of my concerns turn out to be wrong.(...) The official narrative has, you know,(...) bumps and scratches because reconstructing an event is difficult, but it all pretty much matches. I would love to discover that. But the more I know about it, the less that seems likely.
• 5:24
  And what I've come to understand in the last few years is that actually the doubts I harbor(...) are incredibly common amongst rigorously thinking people. But most of the people who harbor these doubts do not talk about them because the cost when you do talk about them is so spectacular that we've been trained out of it.(...) So my sense is what I have to say about what doesn't make sense about this story isn't really that controversial.(...) It might even be that a majority of people have spotted some fraction of these anomalies and privately harbor their own doubts, but that it is significant to discover that Americans who one would think were as free as anyone on earth to discuss whatever it is they should choose to discuss feel that they do not have that freedom because of the consequences in their own lives when they do so.
• 6:27
  Well, I would start on the day of 9 11 and those of us who are alive were alive back then. We'll never forget it. I think there's an almost universal thought at that point in time.(...) It was this changes the world.
• 6:43
  This changes everything.
• 6:45
  Yep.
• 6:46
  And no matter what the exact cause of 9 11 was, whoever initiated it knew that it was created, it knew this would change the world. And I would argue not for the better. You mentioned Afghanistan. I think the best book ever read in Afghanistan was written by special ops soldiers who basically made the point we accomplished what we need to accomplish in Afghanistan before Tommy Frank ever put a boot on the ground.(...) And, you know, 20 some years later, thousands of American lives, you know, Iraq, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, I mean, more thousands of Americans. I mean, it's just it's been a disaster. No doubt about it. But like you, I I pretty well accepted the narrative.
• 7:34
  I'm not a structural engineer. You know, you take a look at that and come, you know, it was massive damage planes running into the building. I mean, I suppose I could bring it down.
• 7:45
  What my eyes began opening during COVID had nothing to do with 9 11.(...) It just when you started seeing what was happening, how none of it made sense. The sabotage of early treatment, you know, the the maniacal desire to force a vaccine or an injection on on everybody, one that, you know, I was trying to medical experts.
• 8:12
  They were highly not skeptical, but I mean, they were beside themselves in terms of what their colleagues were doing, you know, literally turning the body into its own manufacturing site for something that's toxic to it. There would be attacked by it. OK. I mean, I mean, it didn't make sense to me very early on. So I started starting, you know, questioning that.
• 8:35
  Then is my role as a former chairman of Homeland Security, now then ranking member of the permanent subcommittee investigations.
• 8:42
  The chairman, then Richard Blumenthal, wanted to do an investigation into the PGA deal with the Saudi Arabia, the live.
• 8:52
  I didn't think it was really kind of investigation government ought to be doing. That's it's a problem between private parties. Let let them deal with it. We shouldn't have our nose under that tent. But the result of that, you know, high profile hearing.
• 9:06
  I had families, the families of 9 11 come up to me then in the hallway in the heart building with the, you know, stack papers. This was the what the FBI had released in terms of what we knew about Saudi involvement. Is it heavily redacted? You couldn't make head or tails of it. And they were literally begging me, can you use your position here to get the government to release this FBI report on redacted?
• 9:30
  That's where I started going down that rabbit hole.(...) And, you know, the result of that. And you probably have the same reactions when you when you start asking a few questions, those who.
• 9:44
  You know, the firefighters, I mean, the families now, people who lost their loved ones, the people who really paid attention that know that the narrative doesn't make sense at all. Just with a little bit of scrutiny, they start sending you information. You get, for example, links to was it calling out Bravo seven building seven.
• 10:06
  I had never heard of World Trade Center building seven. Never heard of it. But I mean, this is 20 years later. You know, I like you. I'm reasonably well informed.
• 10:16
  OK, I read a lot.(...) I'd never heard of it. And then you feel like why. And then you see the thing come down. And I've seen enough because it's cool to look at.
• 10:26
  I mean, when you see a controlled demolition, that's a. I mean, I'd love to see one of those things in person, you know. Sure.
• 10:32
  And here it sure looks like we experienced that on September 11th and nobody talked about it.(...) Instead, you had NIST do a investigation, examined no physical evidence.
• 10:50
  Doesn't make sense at all. It's been that their investigation has been reviewed by a structural engineering professor up in University of Alaska for your project.
• 11:00
  Pretty well debunks everything that NIST said. NIST will not release the data it used in its analysis. I mean, so again, you just start going down that rabbit hole. You start seeing very legitimate questions.
• 11:15
  That are not even allowed to be asked.
• 11:18
  And that just raises my own suspicion. So no, my eyes are wide open at this point in time. And again, you talk to more and more people and I just have more and more legitimate questions.
• 11:28
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• 16:00
  But the experience is virtually identical. Where you are given a story.
• 16:08
  (...) It's superficially is self consistent. There are elements of it that don't quite satisfy. And if you start to dig there, you discover that the whole thing comes apart. And it's like, I was thinking about what the analogy is.(...) Imagine that aliens got a hold of the movie Mission Impossible.
• 16:33
  And they had thought that it was a memoir of the life of Tom Cruise.
• 16:41
  Right. And some annoying alien is saying, Wait a second.(...) It doesn't really add up as a memoir of some set of events, because the scenes weren't filmed in the order that they're clipped together. We can tell that because of the shadows or something like that. Well, once you start looking at it as possibly not a literal description of events,(...) well, then you see a whole different something you understand that its purpose is to entertain. It's not to inform that the physics of many of the things that happen can't be reconciled with known physics.
• 17:16
  (...) So it's that experience where I understand that there is a story.
• 17:22
  That superficially explains 9 11. And I understand that every challenge that you and I would find worthy of a deeper dive has a superficial answer that will be delivered. You know, usually, you know, down somebody's nose at you.
• 17:39
  But all you have to do is be.
• 17:45
  Curious.
• 17:46
  And attempt to exert some sort of rational discipline.
• 17:52
  And it is clear that the story is not the right story. That does not make it clear what the right story is. But it should be a national priority, because, as you point out, the war in Iraq, for example.
• 18:12
  Cost something like half a million to a million Iraqis their lives and many thousands of Americans their lives. Many more thousands than were killed on 9 11 itself. So from the point of view of a war triggered by an event, whatever the damage of the event, which was substantial, but not really a threat to the nation. We compounded that damage with the lives and treasure that we spent in the deserts of which we never talk about, which I mean, I think most people watching this podcast would not realize hundreds of thousands of Iraqis lost their life. Oh, yeah. That wasn't covered in the mainstream media.
• 18:50
  Nope, it wasn't. And, you know, there's debate about how many but it was a huge number of people who had nothing to do with.
• 19:01
  And Chaka not kills people.
• 19:03
  Yeah.
• 19:03
  I think a big part of the problem is any alternate scenario, any alternative explanation.
• 19:13
  You wouldn't want to even contemplate. I mean, that's that's part of the problem.
• 19:18
  It's like, okay, if that's not what happens, if it if it weren't these crazy Islamic terrorists that had this plot that brought down, you know, then what what did happen? Again, we start going to the talking to the structural engineers and the architects and the firefighters, you know, people that know what they're talking about, unlike me. Okay.
• 19:40
  Right.
• 19:40
  Or if there's they do not believe the narrative at all. And they've got in they lay out very convincing evidence of why you shouldn't believe that narrative.
• 19:52
  (...) Then, I mean, their explanation is explosions, thermite, military grade, nanoparticle, thermate, thermite, and they have all kinds of evidence that would point to it, including unexploded fragments of it through all the unexploded thermite and and iron globules.
• 20:15
  So then the next question is, well, who would have placed explosives in those buildings?
• 20:22
  And nobody, literally, virtually no one wants to go down that path.
• 20:28
  It's unthinkable. But of course, it's unthinkability is the defense that prevents us from asking the questions that obviously are so pressing. So two things. One, I don't feel like a 9-11 truther. I feel like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. The truth is clearly,(...) maybe I've got it wrong. I'll be tremendously relieved if that's true. If I'm not wrong, if the anomalies really are the anomalies that I think they are, then as you point out, any answer is unthinkable.
• 21:06
  But not discovering the answer to that question is equally unthinkable. It is terrifying, in fact.
• 21:16
  And I recently spent some time with a very old friend of mine who happens, he's not an architect, but he has spent his professional life in architecture. And he happened to be living in Manhattan on September 11, 2001. And he happened to be living in an apartment where when he started, he was living in Manhattan. And he happened to be living in an apartment where when he stepped out the front door of the building, he looked down the street at the Twin Towers.
• 21:40
  He saw them fall himself.
• 21:44
  And he told me that his immediate reaction was,(...) "That can't happen."(...) He knew right away, took you and me quite some time to figure out that what we had seen couldn't be reconciled with the structural engineering.
• 22:02
  But then, you know, it's another one of these things. You scratch the surface and you discover the Twin Towers were actually built to withstand impact by jetliners. 707. And yes, these were large.
• 22:13
  And steel doesn't melt. Right. It's the temperature that jet fuel burns at or ordinary office fires burn at. It just doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen. And there have been lots of fires and the buildings are charred, but they remain standing. And even if something anomalous existed in this context that would explain the difference between what you would expect to happen to such a building and what did happen, it doesn't fall.
• 22:42
  None of them fall like that.
• 22:44
  And if they did, you wouldn't have firefighters, no matter how brave they are, walking up into danger trying because again, the firefighters went up there because they did not feel like this thing's going to collapse on them. No, they're walking to danger. They got fires to put out. One of the more famous firefighters lost their life, Ariel Palmer, went up the elevator to the 40th floor, then walked up to, I think it's the 74th floor. And he's reporting a minute before the towers fell. Okay, we've got a couple of fires here. You'd be able to handle them. You know, pretty easy. You know, be able to put these things out again. They're trying to get up to the upper floors to evacuate people. I mean, that's what's on their in their mind is not, oh, these things, these things can come down because no building built like that to a stand, you know, with all the fire retardants and, you know, had ever come down and not before, not since. Right. Okay. So that's why the people really pushing for the answer to this are the 911 families, but in particularly the firefighters who lost their brethren, who realized that this just doesn't add up. And again, if you watch building seven, if you watch calling out Bravo seven, you look at those documentaries. I mean, they do a far better job and they're far more expert people like Richard Gage, you know, the former head of the, you know,(...) I guess architects and engineers for 911.
• 24:10
  I mean, these are people who, you know, their lives since 911 to just try and get the truth out. They're not crazy people.
• 24:19
  They are dedicated. They know what the vast majority of the rest of us don't know.
• 24:27
  And again, you kind of wise or such resistance.
• 24:31
  Why is there such resistance? And it occurs to me. I was rethinking in preparation for our discussion. I was rethinking the things that caused me to begin to wonder and to look into the matter. And I remembered Max Cleland.
• 24:49
  (...) Max Cleland was a Democratic senator from Georgia.
• 24:56
  This he was a veteran. He had lost three limbs in the Vietnam War and he was on the 911 commission. And he resigned saying I have the quote here. He said, I cannot look any American in the eye, especially family members of the victims and say that the commission had full access. This investigation is now compromised. He called it a national scandal.
• 25:23
  And so my feeling is this is an obvious patriot who had privileged access and quit in disgust because he took it to be raped.
• 25:34
  And he's not the only one. I mean, other 911 commissioners said this thing was set up to fail.
• 25:39
  Set up to fail. And I remember actually being quite angry myself at the revelation that George Bush and Dick Cheney were going to testify to the commission behind closed doors. It would not be recorded and they would not be under oath. It's like, tell me you have something to hide without telling me you have something to hide. Now, why should they have anything to hide? This is the most significant failure of American intelligence, arguably in history.
• 26:18
  We have a national interest in figuring out exactly how it happened so that we can protect ourselves from it happening again. And you don't want to do it under oath.
• 26:29
  It's mind boggling. And so all I would say to those who would challenge you and me for speaking about this is look at those two facts. The resignation of members of the 9-11 Commission and the insistence of the president and vice president that they not be put under oath for their testimony, which we cannot now scrutinize. That is reason in and of itself that Americans should go down this road and pursue every loose end that exists in this story just so that we can assure ourselves that the official story is right. If that's what's true or discover what terrifying thing explains it. That isn't the official narrative. If that's the case.
• 27:13
  So we start talking about, you know, how do we get into this? It really was COVID.
• 27:18
  But then COVID introduced me to Bobby Kennedy.
• 27:22
  And I remember we did a podcast with him.
• 27:24
  I think it was in Nashville, Tennessee.
• 27:28
  And first time I think I met him actually in person.
• 27:31
  And when I walk in the green room, he's talking about, you know, the assassination of his father in Sir Han, Sir Han. And again, I won't get into that. But that's where he turned me on to books like JFK and the unspeakable and the devil's chessboard. And you start reading that.(...) And okay, so he can't believe anything the government told us about the JFK assassination or the RFK assassination. Probably the Martin Luther King assassination. So again, you see the government is lying to you. People like Fauci. Okay.(...) During COVID, you start. Yeah, I kind of accepted the whole Lee Harvey Oswald thing to us. I never was a big JFK assassination buff. But when you start reading the evidence that's been accumulated, when you start reading about all the witnesses that disappear.
• 28:21
  When we met on the trail, I asked you, so what are you working on? And it's how the 9 11 thing came up. But I said, this is a book I just got blow back on Oklahoma City bombing. And you start reading the stories of all these potential witnesses that had a, you know, some kind of connection to Oklahoma City bombing and suicide in their cells. And after beating themselves up.
• 28:48
  Some of you ought to just develop a list of all the people who could provide key testimony to all kinds of conspiracy theories that happen to commit suicide in their cell.(...) I did not realize it was so easy to commit suicide in your cell.
• 29:01
  That's why they take your shoelaces away, right? Right. So I don't I don't have the answers. I think, Bret, I think one of the things that, you know, being involved in these investigations, understanding how very limited, for example,(...) congressional investigations are, we just don't have the man part. We don't have the, you know, we don't have the tools.
• 29:21
  When President Trump vowed to release all the JFK files, the Epstein files.
• 29:28
  I mean,(...) you know, the first thing I'm thinking is, are they all there?
• 29:31
  Right. I mean, I mean, do you think we're really going to get the full story here now? I mean, these things have been hanging around in the CIA headquarters for decades. You think they haven't kind of combed through those things and pulled out all the, you know, incriminating information or maybe inserted other stuff. You know, so I think what's very unsatisfying about any of these, what, you know, legacy media would call conspiracies.
• 29:57
  I'm not sure we'll ever get the answers to it. And in particular, with 9-11.
• 30:03
  I think it's a legitimate point to be made. We maybe don't want to know the answers.(...) Well, I mean, you know, I'm sorry. I mean, I don't do we, do we, can we really afford to know the truth?
• 30:17
  I have, I have joked that I'm, I'm not part of the 9-11 truth movement. I'm the founder of the 9-11 fiction movement because I don't think we can handle the truth. So I mean, that is, I mean, it's a legitimate concern. Well, I would just say this.(...) Where I really come out is whatever happened here, damn them for putting us in this position, because I don't know that we can withstand the discovery of what happened. But I know we can't withstand allowing such things to pass and continue. And COVID effectively demonstrates that whatever happened to JFK and kept the actual narrative hidden, whatever happened with COVID, all of these stories that aren't what they appear to be on the surface suggest that there is a force or some forces that are capable of creating historical events on which our national fate pivots and that can't be allowed.
• 31:19
  They're the story that minute. Right. I mean, that's what, you know, they knew, they knew immediately as we signed in line. Well, how, how do they know that? I mean, that's, wow, that's great detective work, isn't it? Man, our government's really competent.
• 31:32
  And as good as the American press is, the British press is even better. They had the news of World Trade Center sevens, 20 minutes before it did.
• 31:41
  Right.(...) It's insane.
• 31:43
  And it's, it drives. And it's in the picture behind the reporter reporting on it.
• 31:47
  She's reporting on it. It's still standing in the background. But here, check this out. I wanted to make sure that I had the facts straight and that if anything had emerged since I last looked in it, that I would have knowledge of it.
• 32:00
  So I queried Grock about whether or not the BBC had indeed reported the collapse of World Trade Center seven before it had actually taken place, which I knew full well they had. Right. But anyway, listen to what Grock had to say on the matter.
• 32:17
  Grock said, no evidence supports claims that the BBC reported the collapse of World Trade Center seven before it occurred on September 11th, 2001. A widely discussed BBC broadcast aired around 454 p.m. Eastern, mentioned World Trade Center sevens collapse, but it was after the actual collapse at approximately 520 p.m. Eastern.
• 32:40
  The confusion stems from a BBC reporter stating the building had collapsed while it was still visible, likely due to erroneous information from emergency services or wire reports amid the day's chaos. Investigations, including by the 9-11 Commission and NIST, found no credible evidence of foreknowledge.
• 32:59
  Claims of a premature report often rely on misrepresentations or edited footage.
• 33:06
  That is the dumbest paragraph I have ever encountered. It literally says it didn't happen and then gives the two time stamps that show that it did.
• 33:19
  So I have learned because I started using Grock for looking at the budget and getting stats, that type of thing. My chief staff warned me, be careful because AI is often confidently wrong. Oh, and I have determined that. We do not want AI running the world. There's a difference between confidently wrong, though, and saying something that can't possibly be right because the sentence is contradicted by the one immediately after.
• 33:45
  So the question I always have is,(...) who are they?
• 33:50
  Who are they?
• 33:52
  Well, I have no idea.
• 33:54
  I don't know either.
• 33:56
  I will say this. We are often people like you and me are often challenged. Who are they? You know, because we know, you know, let's take the topic that brought you and me together. Covid.
• 34:07
  We can see the hand of they all over the place, multiple different topics, whether it's the slandering of repurposed drugs that had utility against covid, whether it's the pretending that the shots were safe and effective when they were the opposite on both counts, whether it was pretending this was a wild, zoonotic spillover rather than an engineered virus. We can see the hand of they.
• 34:33
  We don't know who they are, but that's not I'd love to know who they are. I think we can name a few names that are likely on the list. But as for what who decided to do this and why, that is an open question. But if we were on a battlefield and the mortar started landing and I said, they're shooting at us. And somebody says, well, who's they?
• 34:58
  It was like, I don't know. And at this moment, that is irrelevant. The point is the mortars are landing. They're coming this way. I don't know if that's friendly fire. I don't know if that's hostile fire. But what I do know is that there is a they implied by the rounds that are landing here. Right. So we're in that situation. Yes, we would love to know who did what and why. That is an important question, even if we can't punish them, knowing that at least allows us to recover. Our own history so that we can act rationally going forward.
• 35:29
  But pretending that the fact that we can't answer every question is somehow an indictment of the recognition that the story we've been given as obvious garbage. That doesn't make sense either.
• 35:41
  I think what the firefighters, I think it's a very legitimate request on their part. They're asking for a new 9-11 Commission. Yeah. The President Trump a point one. No political figures on it whatsoever. A guy like me is as open minded skeptical as I am.(...) You don't want it tainted. Right. By politics. And I support this. They ought to have firefighters. They ought to have structural engineers that have architects. They ought to have people that actually know the stuff.
• 36:09
  At least go through and ask the questions in an official forum that where they can't be called whack jobs where nobody can attack them. So this is this is a rigorous review.(...) Don't know that we have the answers of who they were in the case of 9-11.(...) But can we at least get these legitimate questions on the table and start asking them. I think I think that's the least we ought to be able to do. I hope President Trump takes him up on their offer. He's the only one that can really do this.
• 36:42
  Yeah. And you know it is what we voted for. We voted for a renting. Gaid who wasn't part of the structure in order to do the things that somebody was part of the structure couldn't do. I hope that he's in a position to do it. I don't know. And in part you know this is where the question of who they are.
• 37:04
  Depends on who they are.
• 37:05
  Depends on who they are.
• 37:06
  And how powerful they are. What kind of influence they can exert.
• 37:09
  Yeah. Which you know. And I mean.
• 37:11
  So again there's nothing there's nothing wrong. I mean there's nothing wrong with anything. There's nothing wrong with asking legitimate questions. No it's our obligation. Leaping to conclusions. I don't do that. So you've got to show me the proof.(...) It just sure seems like the story that we've been given doesn't add up on you know multiple fronts.
• 37:29
  So let's talk about you know again this is this podcast is not.
• 37:34
  Well it spontaneously happened based on a chance meeting on a trail.
• 37:39
  But let's instead of trying to do an exhaustive discussion of all.
• 37:46
  We're really not qualified.
• 37:47
  We're not. We're not qualified to do that. But we are patriots.(...) People who think carefully and critically about difficult topics.
• 37:56
  So what I thought would be useful is to discuss the things that after all these years bug you. Things about the story that cause you to feel that it's not just a matter of you know the fog of war and the fact that you know eyewitnesses don't always agree that the anomalies are significant enough to actually falsify the official story and leave us with a question as to what replaces the official story. What are those things.
• 38:26
  Well first of all I think the way to analyze the problem is you have to break it down into its components prior to 9 11 the actual event of 9 11 and then after 9 11.(...) So you know prior 9 11 I think there's an awful lot of evidence that the US government knew a whole lot more about Al Qaeda the cells some of the terrorists that were supposedly on the plane. There are a lot of questions that need be answered about what the government knew and when they knew it prior 9 11 which would obviously help inform you about what might have caused 9 11 then just the actual event. And this is like you know really what what got me curious is when you see things like you know why didn't I know about building 7.
• 39:09
  Sure looks like control demolition to me.
• 39:10
  I mean how could NIST ever come up with their theory which seems to be pretty well debunked.(...) You start again you start going down and you have you know I do zooms with Richard Gage and you know he takes me point by point. OK.(...) And if you do that and again there's some great documentaries that do that. I think Graham McQueen is the guy who just painstakingly assembled and found about 156 different witnesses pretty much that day on camera news reporters you know firefighters survivors you know saying they heard explosions you know evidence of explosions. And you know that's always been completely debunked right there were no explosions. So again there's so much just basic science and I'd love to get you know physics PhDs together and go through it.
• 40:02
  Tell tell us how this work. Tell us how you have these multi ton frame it's not framing massive pieces of steel hurled away from the Twin Towers as they're falling. You know 60 70 80 miles an hour trailing white smoke that again explain that to me.
• 40:26
  It doesn't fit in with the narrative.
• 40:27
  There's there's there's an alternate explanation so that's not 11 then then afterwards you can talk about Afghanistan and talk about Iraq. I mean if there was if there was a rationale for some other actor than Al Qaeda. Let's face it if Al Qaeda wanted to keep the US on the Middle East that was the wrong way to do it.
• 40:47
  Blowing up bring down the Twin Towers was probably the most likely way of getting us into the Middle East and it ran and proof is it did and we still have an extract ourselves. And again I are things better off having to listen side of Hussein evil human being. But in in real politics Iraq was a counterbalance to Iran right now Iran is the big threat. OK.
• 41:16
  Is the world better off by not having some counterbalance in the Middle East other than just Israel against Iran.
• 41:22
  Again unanswerable questions but that's how I analyze problem prior to 9 11 the actual event and then post 9 11 take a look at it. Prior to 9 11 which includes the day before when Donald Rumsfeld announced a 2 plus trillion dollar failure to it's just a couple trillion. It's just a couple trillion dollars that the Pentagon could not account for which was big news until the morning of September 11th at which point everybody forgot about it because.
• 41:58
  Well for multiple reasons they forgot about it because the entire news cycle was taken over for weeks and months with years sensational events that had just taken place but also because strangely the accounting section of the Pentagon which was at least partially the locale where this accounting.
• 42:22
  Failure was to be analyzed and understood was the exact section of the Pentagon that was hit by the flight that crashed there.
• 42:32
  So if that were the only anomaly here I would say wow odd coincidences happen that's really strange. But it's so far from the only coincidence that it does raise the question of whether or not you know in the same way that news bad news is often announced on a Friday because people don't tend to notice it if you knew that a major historical event was going to happen. That's also a great time to announce embarrassing things so that they get swept away. I'm not saying that happened but I am saying in light of the other anomalies including the very strange light path of that flight that is understood by pilots to be well beyond the capacity of somebody who could barely fly a Cessna raises questions. I don't like those questions.
• 43:23
  So again from my standpoint the way to approach this is the people who are invested so much time and effort in here and that's why I've asked them to do is just give me the questions give me a list of questions they've done that. I mean I've gotten you know. Talk me off the ledge. Dozens and dozens of questions here okay and they're all legitimate.
• 43:43
  None of them are crazy or wacky and there's probably a lot more. And so that's to me that that's what a 9 11 commission would do is assemble those lists of questions. Get experts that can speak to those questions. You know here's here's how the narrative answers that question but here's how science here's how physics here's how structural engineering would answer that question and prove the official narrative wrong.
• 44:08
  At least give the families and the firefighters the satisfaction that they've been right all on this. This doesn't make sense. Now do we actually have the final answer. Do we know who really prompted whose response for 9 11.
• 44:25
  Again it's also legitimate concern. Do we can we handle the truth. Do we really want to know that that answer.
• 44:32
  Well again I mean I mean I do. I would say I don't know whether we can handle the truth but I think it's a question of relative hazards.(...) The truth I think is a hazard and I'm not going to pretend it's a small one. Not having it is clearly to me a much worse hazard that the ability to create an event like this is.
• 44:59
  I mean let's put it this way.
• 45:01
  The official narrative described a group that had the ability to create an event like this and we went to war twice because it was that important to address it.
• 45:12
  Hundreds of thousands people lost their lives.
• 45:14
  Right.
• 45:14
  So that's that's in the rearview mirror now.
• 45:17
  So if those if those people weren't responsible or they were responsible with some larger they participating then the importance is as big as the one that got us into Afghanistan and Iraq.
• 45:32
  The question I have is if we honestly knew the truth would be the result of that would even be more horrific. I don't know. I just I just don't know. I mean what what they depend on is a good enough story a good enough narrative to get us downstream where. Listen if you're 25 years old or 24 years old you weren't alive. You know. So it just it all becomes the rearview mirror. It's it just all gets forgotten and you move on. You forget the hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan and the people who who really want to get the answers. I mean the firefighters that the families are not 11.(...) They also pass and it's their kids and grandkids who kind of lose touch with who their their firefighter father grandfather was. So that's that's the game they play. It's just wait them out.
• 46:28
  Save it off long enough.
• 46:29
  And you know history is written by the victors in that case they will be the victors. OK but let me ask you this question.
• 46:36
  Obviously neither of us can know the answer. But let's say that we had gotten to the bottom of 9 11 within a few years.
• 46:47
  Does Covid happen.
• 46:51
  Yeah it's an answerable question. What's your instinct.
• 46:55
  Listen I'm for the truth. I'm for transparency.
• 46:59
  So again I'm not I'm not arguing against it. OK. Yeah. But I think you have to contemplate part of as we talked about this is we want to discuss why are they so effective at preventing people from asking legitimate questions. I mean what is what is the downside. Let's face it.
• 47:20
  It's in back of both of our minds. Witnesses die.
• 47:23
  Yeah.
• 47:24
  I mean you go through. Like I say JFK and the unspeakable and you listen to all these key witnesses to Leah Harvey Oswald and what happened. They'll say they're dead. You know you read this book now that I'm starting to know I've got the free download sample on Kindle and blowback and it's just individual after individual after individual that dead.
• 47:46
  So when you're in public life and you get death threats and you kind of kind of live with it you kind of you know.
• 47:53
  But that's not an unreasonable or irrational fear if you really got important information if you're so again that that's certainly one of the torrent from getting to the truth from digging deeper. But again you know they can't really do much more damage to me publicly. I'm viewed and widely discusses a conspiracy theorist and you know whack job all that type of thing.
• 48:19
  You've got a career. You've got you've got. I mean and others do as well. OK.
• 48:24
  And you don't necessarily want to be on the conspiracy side of these issues. It's a lot easier to go out. We're never going to get the answer on that. So why delve into it. Why risk my career. And again that's that's a legitimate concern on the part of people. So that again that's that's why we're 25 years down the path here from from 9 11 and all these very legitimate questions are still buried.
• 48:49
  You've got Grock.(...) You've got rocks.
• 48:52
  You know these large language models right that should be have access to all this information obviously are tuned by algorithms to embrace the narrative.
• 49:04
  Well actually that's not what I take from us. What I take from this is that the story of World Trade Center 7 is so crazy that nobody has even put together. Rock can't make heads of tails. Rock cannot make heads of tails of what's going on because the claims are just from two different universes. So I think Grock is legitimately confused here because you know like it really is I think the dumb.
• 49:30
  So 9 11 stumping Grock. It's it's stumping Grock because of what the LLMs are. LLMs are a high compute rendering of the public mind. And the point is the public mind is high on drugs when it comes to World Trade Center 7. There's no coherent rendering of this.
• 49:50
  But but but the majority of the information out there would would tend to call that conspiracy theory that that wouldn't be true. And so I would think a large language model would come down the side of most of the things it's reading and has access to go. That's that's fringe. That's you know ignore that and go along with the main narrative that there's no because it says there's no there's no evidence.
• 50:16
  But of course the evidence is two sentences up where it gives you the two time stamps. And of course it does suggest I wouldn't call it foreknowledge.
• 50:23
  We don't know it could be the weirdest coincidence in history.
• 50:26
  But it but it pulls it pulls out the truth. But then it goes to the narrative and the narrative is there's no evidence.
• 50:31
  Right. So I think look there's a reason that all of those of us who have paid the price of questioning the 9 11 story and immediately found out that you know it's worse than we feared. Right. You question one thing and you hope to satisfy yourself and you just it leads you to a string of others.(...) The reason that World Trade Center 7 plays the role that it does is that it really is a smoking gun.
• 51:02
  There's no explaining World Trade Center 7 in a satisfactory which is why we never heard about why we didn't hear about it. Right.
• 51:10
  That's the first evidence right there.
• 51:12
  They were so effectively so effectively suppress that story which is the because there could be no explanation for it.
• 51:18
  It's the exact opposite of what you would expect. The news tends to air in the direction of the sensational. The idea that three buildings fell not two is more sensational. You would expect that to have been a focus. Right. It would have been minor compared to the towers but it would have nonetheless been you know an important well known footnote of history and yet it remained invisible to most people for a long time. Which in fact brings me back to your point about murder and witnesses and fears you and I might I think legitimately have about having our lives ended.
• 51:54
  Oh I'm not suicidal. I love life. Yes. I can't. I can't imagine ever contemplating suicide.
• 52:00
  Well you know short of some terrifying debilitating illness from which there's no way back. I am exactly in agreement with you. Life is absolutely precious and not only will I not kill myself but I drive carefully.
• 52:18
  I you know treat firearms with respect.
• 52:22
  So two points though with respect to to the the tendency of witnesses to disappear shorter lives. One if there's something weird about the 9 11 narrative and whoever the they is that engaged in this was obviously willing to kill thousands of people. Is it surprising that they would kill dozens to keep it secret. I mean in fact I think it's an automatic presumption that we should have that if you're willing to kill thousands you're probably willing to kill dozens.
• 53:00
  But the other thing is the most there are several strange things about the World Trade Center 7 story. One that we didn't know about it.
• 53:12
  Two that if the BBC didn't have foreknowledge it managed to predict one of the most unpredictable events in history in the most absurd form possible like literally reporting on the collapse of a building that had not yet collapsed and happened to be in the shot. Right.
• 53:36
  That isn't it. It wasn't foreknowledge.
• 53:40
  It was an amazing coincidence.
• 53:42
  But there were other people that walked away from there. They were being told no that's that building is coming down.
• 53:48
  Right.
• 53:49
  Again there was there's just again you have to watch the document is building seven or you know calling out Bravo 7. It just lays out all the sevens you know.
• 53:59
  But what I wanted to get to though is something that I think I don't know if you have seen it or not but there is a story that stops me in my tracks.
• 54:10
  Guy who I'd never heard of named Danny Joanko. Danny Joanko was if what I've read is correct.
• 54:18
  A demolition expert from the Netherlands.
• 54:21
  (...) I did a little checking this morning to make sure he didn't show up suddenly in the aftermath of 9 11. No in fact his demolition company there's evidence of it going back into the 90s so he was apparently the company that bears his name was apparently a demolition expert from the Netherlands was caught off guard by a documentary film crew that showed him without explaining what it was. The video of World Trade Center seven collapsing and asked for his opinion and he says it's obviously control demolition and they revealed to him that this building fell on the same day as the twin towers and he is disbelieving because how could that possibly be the case and he never heard a world. Imagine that a demolition expert one of the three.
• 55:15
  I think Donald Trump was quoted right after 9 11th think that was a controlled demolition.
• 55:21
  Really. I'm quite sure. Oh yeah there's a phone call I think in some program.(...) But anyway Danny Joanko says he's controlled demolition the crew asks him you know what would it have taken you know how long would it take to rig a building like that. You know how he runs through it and it becomes just clear that it's implausible to him that it was rigged on the day of 9 11.
• 55:45
  It's utterly clear to him that it fell because of controlled demolition which means it must have been rigged in advance of 9 11.
• 55:53
  And he never recanted his claim. It was just utterly obvious to him what he what he was seeing on this video and.
• 56:05
  Some years later he.
• 56:10
  Died in a one car car crash that he was driving a Volvo safe car crashed into a tree I believe on the way home from church on Saturday with his dog in the car the dog survived.
• 56:26
  Now obviously people wrap their cars around three.
• 56:31
  People travel with the dog people drive all those people go to church sometimes it even happens on Saturday but the whole story has kind of a Michael Hastings vibe to it Michael Hastings being a journalist to.
• 56:47
  If the story is accurate as I understand it was investigating some story that he thought put his life in danger in a panic asked his neighbor if he could borrow his neighbor's car because he thought his own car had been tampered with a river did not loan his car he got into his own car and.
• 57:06
  Hurtling down Highland Avenue in Los Angeles crashed into a palm tree the so hard the engines ejected from the vehicle and he was incinerated so.
• 57:18
  Oh and I well in any case the point is.
• 57:25
  Danny Joanka was a fly in the ointment he was a demolition expert who looked at this and didn't understand how any demolition expert could disagree that that's what had happened to World Trade Center seven and he's no longer with us and the story of why he's no longer with us raises questions of its own.
• 57:42
  So that's why I'd like to see a complete list covering all these instances of conspiracy of all the witnesses rather than do it kind of one off with this particular I mean just start listing all yeah I need to be a really long list will be a good idea for some journalist or some for some book.
• 58:06
  Many years ago I think it would have been when I was in college I started to wonder if you could use the tools of science to demonstrate that something anomalous had happened with the two Kennedy assassinations and the Martin Luther King assassination by studying the longevity of witnesses compared to a control group in similar health basically could you just say. Hey here's one of the things that shortens your life witnessing something conspiracy yeah something like that anyway it was an idle thought so there's a good query for for grokker perplexity or something like that just give me a list of all the witnesses and all these different cases that died mysteriously exactly so long list. Well then what are the chances that if you did ask grok that crock would end up dying in a one car accident wrapping his Volvo around a tree you know could happen. Yeah all right so are there are there particular we've talked a little bit about World Trade Center seven and the anomaly surrounding it the BBC reporting its collapse before it happened oh maybe before we complete that thread we should talk about the fact that there were two men trapped in World Trade Center seven trying to escape trapped by explosions that they well. I believe both of them spoke immediately about what they had experienced there's a on the street interview I think it's Barry Jennings very Jennings. Yeah so they went up there and because that was going to be a you know emergency response location but nobody was there there were like hot cups of coffee that they had evacuated to the building had been evacuated so they were basically told to get out but as they try to get out they were stopped I think in the sixth to eighth of January. Six to eighth floor landing because they've been blown out. Yeah and I think I'm pretty sure this before the towers come down.
• 1:00:12
  That's correct. So again there are there are multiple reports of explosions in buildings you know seismic events prior to the towers coming down again. Again the hundred fifty six witnesses that you know that day news reports testifying that they heard explosions and again these are these credible witnesses these are firefighters these are first responders I mean these are also reporters.
• 1:00:41
  And then NIST doesn't even mention I think they actually probably say the contrary there was no reports of explosions so there's there's all kinds of reports of explosions what what's going on. What are you talking about. So again it's it's just not credible. It's literally you know NIST to me in this instance is like a two year old just stole a cookie from the cookie jars holding his hands and God I didn't take cookie.
• 1:01:05
  Right. There are clearly reports of explosions in this case you have two witnesses in the building Michael Hess and Barry Jennings who reported initially explosions.(...) Barry Jennings continued to speak about the fact that what he had felt were explosions. He said that he had had experience with exploding boilers. He did not believe that this was a boiler in the building exploding and he of course is sadly no longer with us.(...) He another fly in the ointment who just so happens to have have died early.
• 1:01:41
  So World Trade Center 7 does seem to be whoever they might be something did not go right at World Trade Center 7. There's a part of me that wonders if the plane that crashed in Shanksville was supposed to hit building 7 which would then explain its collapse much as the other two World Trade Center towers collapse was explained by the air airliners that hit them which then of course brings us to the question of Shanksville does Shanksville bother you.
• 1:02:19
  So it's all part of the story. I mean it's a you know it's been turned into an end. Here's a story of heroism. You know Todd Beamer. Let's roll. Let's roll.
• 1:02:27
  Preventing whatever death was prevented by crashing into field.(...) By the way that's the if you ever go to that memorial they've got a row couple rows of telephone handsets. You can listen to the voicemail messages left by people on the plane for their loved ones. And what's extraordinary about it is just again you'd like to think just quintessential American people are concerned about themselves are concerned about the loved ones.
• 1:02:59
  It chokes it chokes me up even talking about it. It is the one thing about not you know all these tragedies.
• 1:03:08
  It is amazing how the real character the true character of the American people get revealed. I mean it's as much tragedy as much death as there was.
• 1:03:20
  These things are inspiring. I mean what what the pastors on you know that flight 93 three ninety eight. OK. What they did their hair wasn't but firefighters did. I mean the iconic pictures of firefighters walking up into danger. But again they knew they're walking to danger but they had no I'm sure no concern that these buildings are going to come down collapse because that just doesn't happen. They got fired to contend with but they've got people to rescue. So they walk up there.
• 1:03:50
  So that's that's the other flip part of this the whole 9 11 story is just the level of heroism and and really the inspiring stories of Americans doing what America does.
• 1:04:01
  Well look I agree about Americans and my concern is that they were used as pawns in this case and I will tell you you know I would love to discover that the crash in Shanksville is what it appeared to be because it is a story of American heroism.
• 1:04:19
  And you know it's one of the few bright spots from that morning is that you know passengers on this flight struck the first blow against whoever did this. But I will tell you that story doesn't stand up scrutiny either. The crash site does not it's not like any crash site from any jetliner previously in history in terms of I mean maybe I've got the story of your team you down a whole new round. A whole new rabbit hole. Well unfortunately.
• 1:04:54
  So again I've been there went through with Secretary J. Johnson we toured that I was again I wasn't I was inspired by what I saw there. I'm inspired by it too but I have the sense that whatever look as you say can we handle the truth.
• 1:05:14
  The the goodness within us was weaponized by whoever they were.
• 1:05:21
  Well that's again that's what they that's a huge advantage they have that they have none of us wants to contemplate that level of evil.
• 1:05:33
  It's just don't write me American. I'm not a fan of government. I mean it causes or exacerbates more problems than ever solved. But most Americans don't want to contemplate that the trillions of dollars we spend every year is wasted or goes to exacerbating problems. They don't want to believe it. They certainly don't want to believe that the US government might take some you know participating role in the assassination JFK or RFK or Martin Luther King Jr. They don't want to contemplate it. So it's it's a huge advantage for who they are in terms of developing a narrative very quickly. And OK good. It's been explained. It's been explained. Let's move on.
• 1:06:21
  Until until covid hits.
• 1:06:23
  Well but that's that's just what I wanted to raise with you is there's I have a principle that I detest but I find it useful which is no matter how cynical you become you're still being naive.
• 1:06:36
  And you know you and I got a graduate level education in reality from covid.
• 1:06:47
  The inability to swallow the official narrative on covid results in the terrifying recognition that something deployed.
• 1:07:01
  Very dangerous shots to billions of people at best not knowing what would happen but more likely understanding they knew they knew exactly what happened.
• 1:07:15
  There you go.
• 1:07:16
  That's why you like guy like Michael Yeeden was beside himself and I was trying to hit me. So Brown I know I know you know I said to keep these people I know what they know. I know they're lying to us. I know they know they're lying to us. You know just right.
• 1:07:27
  So my only point is this.
• 1:07:30
  Very hard.
• 1:07:32
  Empathy is a key tool in the human toolkit but it depends on the fact that somebody else is structured sufficiently similarly to you that you can figure out what they're thinking and they're feeling by just sort of putting yourself in their place.
• 1:07:49
  Very hard for somebody like you or me to imagine saying yes to a plan in which you knew that billions of people would be exposed to a lethal shot. Right.
• 1:08:02
  You couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. But obviously there are enough people who could do it that it happened. So if you take that discovery that there are people who you know presumably with files and communications and discussions could actually get to the point of saying yes to a plan that dangerous then coming to understand how the rest of this stuff happens is much simpler.
• 1:08:30
  It's the one thing you really need is a willingness a broadening of the imagination to allow you to imagine monstrousness this powerful and apparently this common.
• 1:08:44
  So this gets us into a discussion like you and Tucker had.
• 1:08:47
  You know it was striking as I started holding my hearings on early treatment that type of thing and you know contacting doctors medical researchers.
• 1:08:56
  Most of them were not Republicans. Most of them were Democrat.
• 1:09:00
  Most of them voted for Obama.
• 1:09:04
  But there's a very common theme of these interviews. Most of them were people of faith and they would often express me we're seeing here as we're seeing evil on a biblical scale. They viewed what was happening as evil on a biblical scale.
• 1:09:21
  And I think that's probably what's open.
• 1:09:23
  My eyes have been opened to the fact that there is evil.(...) And you know in this world there is a struggle between good and evil. There always has been probably always will be. But we are we are witnessing we are we are witnessing evil just on a again biblical scale massive scale. It's I mean it is. And again the good news is most people are good and they're so good that they don't want to contemplate evil at that level. They just they don't want to accept that exists.
• 1:09:54
  And I think that's maybe the difference between a lot of people and you and I know we're we're owning a good deal.
• 1:10:02
  But I think that's something that's coming up to the fact. No it does exist.
• 1:10:03
  It's wish it didn't. But but it does.
• 1:10:06
  Yeah I don't disagree with that at all.
• 1:10:08
  And you know the only hint of a disagreement is I think this was evil on a biblical scale. I don't think that necessarily requires anything supernatural.
• 1:10:19
  Yeah.
• 1:10:20
  But you know but is it evil on a biblical scale. Absolutely.(...) So I did want to point out though you know there are a number of things in the story of 9 11.
• 1:10:32
  Sadly reached the conclusion that there's a they and there's a story we don't know that accounts for most or all of the major anomalies which we could go on for hours recounting. There is also a set of things that I don't understand if there is a they why they didn't do it better.(...) Right.
• 1:10:54
  OK. If this was a setup to get us into Iraq.
• 1:10:58
  Why not include some Iraqi paperwork just to make that connection because there wasn't any there's plenty of Saudi paperwork. There was no Iraqi paperwork to justify that they had to to phony that up. Likewise you know they burned Colin Powell on the phony claim that there was evidence of weapons of mass destruction.
• 1:11:20
  Well whatever got us into a war in Iraq couldn't come up with a measly little something on the ground that would amount to you know a validation of that claim like why why would.
• 1:11:34
  Why would anything capable of an elaborate hoax not you know tie up some loose ends that are galling to many of us.
• 1:11:44
  I mean I don't know the answer but my point is that those things exist there too.
• 1:11:48
  And I think one of the things that I'm learning about this and it fits very well with your point about most people are good.
• 1:11:59
  I hate it when people say that everybody thinks they're the hero because I think it's true for most people but I don't I think there is a small number of people who are comfortable with their own evil and we just don't intuit it because it works differently in the mind.
• 1:12:11
  But even even if elements of our government participated here somehow most of our government didn't know anything about it. And in fact the you see agents of government there's no obviously if you're going to create some sort of a phony event you can't have entire agencies be aware of that.
• 1:12:40
  That wouldn't work. So what you have is agencies that don't understand that they're not supposed to be investigating something and then other and you know I don't know how that plays out internal to these things but.
• 1:12:52
  Anyway you see you know for example in the Oklahoma City bombing case you see the FBI continuing to discover evidence that then later gets dropped you know the John Doe number two stuff like the FBI is initially pursuing this and then somehow you know.
• 1:13:10
  It evaporates what happened behind the scenes maybe you know I sure don't so you have to imagine that there's you know there's the earnest FBI and there's the corrupt FBI and they live in the same building and maybe if you're inside the thing you don't even know who's who.
• 1:13:28
  But I.
• 1:13:29
  I mean you know there's interesting Bobby Kennedy reports that he had dinner with Mike Pompeo you know person he does not like at all and apparently Pompeo made a couple.
• 1:13:43
  Points or confessions to our case for first of all he fell guilty about not doing more reform CIA was there but then there was a group you're not an insignificant group didn't sound like but a group inside the CIA that simply don't believe in democracy. And then you go back down to the devil's chessboard and Allen Dulles and I mean these these people that are powerful you know they got they got their black ledgers they've got their you know amounts appropriate to them that never get audited their covert operations that type of thing. So you know whoever they are they are immensely powerful and they are there in positions that span administrations not necessarily the top job but then there's just so many people that connected you know at the top right. You know you get I guess get let in the club I got I don't know how I don't know how it works I haven't by the way I have no insight information on this mean we secure briefings in Congress or a joke I mean it's they're mainly designed to make sure that you don't talk about something because you just had a secure briefing on this issue and then what you're told you're it's already out in the news media so.
• 1:14:53
  Again maybe if you're on the Intel Committee which I'm not maybe you get some more information but in general don't don't think you're a member of Congress has a clue in terms of what's happening here these.
• 1:15:04
  Again our founders are geniuses they realize we're not angels you know if you don't want to live in Cass and anarchy some form of government but government is something by and large to fear.
• 1:15:16
  I agree and you know it took me a died in the world liberal a long time to understand and I sort of thought that the founders had PTSD because of what they had experienced but I now have exactly the same PTSD having watched malignant governance you know engage in.
• 1:15:37
  Tyranny effectively out in the open so we saw during covid.
• 1:15:42
  Good news you know Kings had no restraint eventually did the Magna Carta but at least there's some constraint on our government but is it you know spend seven trillion dollars and mortgage their kids future sets up these agencies that are you know again that those beer crafts look at a present with this to show pass you know that they are the ongoing government they do do say please.
• 1:16:05
  Well that is I think exactly the reason that we have to.
• 1:16:11
  Overcome our fears fears that I share with you about what happens if we do pursue this threat I just don't. We don't know how much of.
• 1:16:21
  What we face is the result of.
• 1:16:26
  Forces that are steering us in the same way that you know firefighters went up into these buildings not understanding which hazard it was that they were being exposed to.
• 1:16:36
  It's just it's extremely extremely dangerous.
• 1:16:40
  Let me tell you that you know the decision I have to make okay you got chairman of the permanent subcoming investigations you have very limited budget okay I guess.
• 1:16:50
  I got like one point four million dollars sounds like a lot but you know DC wages right you only have some investigators we just don't have the tools and yeah I can issue subpoenas I have very little ability to enforce those subpoenas and you know administration's know that.
• 1:17:03
  So again I'm kind of doing this I'm talking about the Commission that the firefighters are asking President Trump to. Point I think it's a good idea don't have people like me here or any elected official on this thing keep it strictly to subject experts on that. If President Trump doesn't do that.
• 1:17:25
  I'll have to make a decision do I want to use my committee to hold a hearing to voice these questions I mean I think I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily shy from that it's just not the best venue. And one of the reasons I say that is you know I came out on some podcast and I was talking a little bit about this and get immediately attacked by a Republican member of Congress.
• 1:17:51
  You know to chiding me for criticizing me for pushing conspiracy theories and being really harmful to the nine eleven families and. Are you not talking the nine eleven families the nine eleven nine eleven families the firefighters they're the ones.
• 1:18:06
  That I'd be doing this for their their I'm from Oshkosh Wisconsin you know nine eleven other than it changed the world didn't impact me like it did impact people who lost loved ones. You know I'm advocating for them yeah they've got legitimate questions that want to be answered so again I've got a. I hope President Trump again I've I ran with him same tick in 2016 I always talked about him as the political equivalent of disruptive technology. He is he's a disruptor and we need disruption Washington DC this would certainly be disruptive yeah so again I'd.
• 1:18:41
  Mr.
• 1:18:42
  President if you're watching this appoint that commission if not I've got to make the decision would it be beneficial would it be do more more good than harm me holding hearing on this and letting these questions be aired publicly.
• 1:18:57
  Yeah well it's a great idea let me ask you this question I really beyond my expertise I don't know.
• 1:19:03
  What did you say the budget was one point four million point four million so that's I think I think the January six committee and the Democrats I think devote a whole lot more time and effort to that yeah what no one point four million is not it's not a lot in Washington dollars.
• 1:19:17
  Is there any mechanism by which the public could crowdsource funds and you could exert we couldn't use I mean there's can't do it ethic that's what I figured I mean I can't even get people to volunteer time that kind of stuff and we get there we have all these ethics rules to keep us pure. The keep you chasing around so there's no corruption yeah all right so let's see we mentioned the FBI there was one thing I definitely wanted to mention actually maybe this is something that your committee could do very inexpensively one one of the things about the nine eleven story that has. Never stopped bothering me.
• 1:20:04
  Never stopped bothering me.
• 1:20:07
  Is there's obviously a lot of debate about what hit the Pentagon.
• 1:20:12
  Doesn't look like a plane to me.
• 1:20:13
  How very few videos are. You were talking about the Pentagon there's going to again.
• 1:20:21
  Well that's what I wanted to get to though doesn't look like a plane to me but I am willing to accept that you know first of all a plane is an elegant structure with less material to it than you would think you know the tube is what gives it structure and so who knows maybe something happened that I don't quite anticipate where a lot of material went through the hole in the side of the building and we can't see it. But here's here's the problem with that story for me.
• 1:20:50
  There were a lot of videos.
• 1:20:52
  They were all collected by the FBI and we've only been allowed to see one of them which does not resolve the question yeah it's so here's the question twenty four years after this event get those videos what.
• 1:21:07
  Possible purpose does it serve to not let us see the other ones unless they reflect something that is inconsistent with the narrative so my feeling is the FBI should shut us up just release the damn videos let us see them let us go through a frame by frame and then you know.
• 1:21:25
  I wasn't aware that the FBI had collected all those things so there are more videos that exist and the FBI hasn't that's interesting yeah you know anybody watching this if you have information.
• 1:21:37
  I'm open for business I'm collecting information I told you about a gentleman I saw outside the heart building he claimed it had been in my office and left them information because I asked him if he had a business card so I left with your office. Nobody in my staff has that but basically told me the story he is a government employee volunteered to help out in the aftermath of nine eleven so they signed him to the debris pile and they had debris going by conveyor and his job was to just pull out anything that looked like an electronic component.
• 1:22:06
  Now again it's just a just a little tidbit of information I thought that was quite interesting when they were just couldn't get rid of that crap soon I put it on a barge to be recycled over in China within two weeks but they're having.
• 1:22:20
  Yeah volunteers were you know government government employee volunteers go through and extracting any electronic component why would they do that well so let's fill this in so if that guy's listening I want to know your name I want to ask us more questions.
• 1:22:34
  So let's fill in some things that you said for people who are new to questioning this story.
• 1:22:42
  One the structural steal from the twin towers at least was immediately recycled gone which.
• 1:22:52
  Is probably criminal because it was evidence of crime and it was disposed of you can understand why they removed from the site sure okay but then they have to hold it right because you have to do forensic tests and you have to do a test.
• 1:23:03
  You have to test it for explosive chemicals that type of thing that's the firefighters they'll go through their you know investigation manuals and just the basic laws were broken in terms of doing that and of course is all justified by well this national emergency and so you can call it out to a dump site and leave it available for further investigation.
• 1:23:23
  Absolutely and it would solve the question so what I'd like to know yeah who ordered that right.
• 1:23:31
  Who ordered that and why that ought to be something we ought to get to the bottom of I mean it was somebody with the true investigatory of manpower and ability to do it who ordered the disposal of all this equipment and all the all this material all the all the wreckage who ordered it and I would also just point out.
• 1:23:52
  If you and I are wrong the if the official narrative is basically correct.
• 1:24:01
  It is not our fault that we are left with questions that could easily have been solved by looking at the 25 years right that's not our fault that somebody destroyed the evidence that could have put this to rest and.
• 1:24:15
  A totally foreseeable consequence is that we would be left with questions that we should be able to answer but can't.(...) The obvious implication is that those you know structural beams would have answered the question in a direction that would actually have validated our concerns rather than the other way around with respect to the.
• 1:24:39
  The pulling of electronic components from the WTC 7 site.
• 1:24:45
  I did look into it after you mentioned I'd never heard okay. And here's the here's the upshot the grock explanation.
• 1:24:53
  I can't I can't remember where I found a description of it but I did find description that this in fact had happened.
• 1:25:01
  So here's the issue. World Trade Center 7 contained some really interesting stuff right really interesting stuff including.
• 1:25:12
  Much of the evidence surrounding the Enron scandal.
• 1:25:19
  There by the way we're just scratching the surface of all the interesting questions surrounding I mean we're just we're just scratching the surf go for many many hours just basically you know with the bubble.
• 1:25:30
  But World Trade Center 7 contained really interesting stuff the Enron files being part of it or some of the Enron files.
• 1:25:42
  The Enron scandal was a major problem for the Bush administration because the Bush administration was closely tied with Enron and lay was good friend of the president.
• 1:25:52
  And the Enron scandal I did not remember this effectively spanned 9 11 Enron began to come apart with the resignation of its CEO I believe in August and the collapse of the stock happens in October right the flanking months of 9 11.
• 1:26:14
  And lo and behold it was much harder to figure out what had happened because of all of the loss of documentation so one could imagine a legitimate search for whatever remained and it wasn't the only you know the CIA also had an office in World Trade Center 7 there were many interesting things. Just the ownership of it the insurance policies taken out the right you know I know there's just again we're only scratching the surface only scratching the surface but you could imagine a legitimate search to recover you know I would have certainly imagined that the stuff would have been backed up and be in multiple sites because of exactly the hazard of one site being lost but somehow lots of stuff was lost the destruction at the Pentagon and World Trade Center 7 seems to have compromised our ability to recover.
• 1:27:02
  And so I think that's a good thing to know that the idea was that they didn't want to investigate financial crimes or anomalies that's interesting but one could imagine an honorable search for hard drives to recover some of that information and one could also imagine that the idea was they didn't want that information to survive so looking for it made sense so I don't know what are these things explains that but it's certainly interesting that somebody came to you suggested that this had happened and then vanished. Yeah. I know. All right. Well what else is is on your list of anomalies or things worth discussing in this context.
• 1:27:42
  I don't know. Honestly I think we've covered it there again there's so many things that I'm just not expert in as you read about it. All I can say is if if you're interested in this topic start looking these documentaries start reading up about it. You know Richard Gage is a wealth of information that firefighters for 9 11 truth architectural structural engineers. I mean these there's just a there's a growing list of questions that they're legitimate they need to be answered. So there's again just just all what was housed in World Trade Center 7.
• 1:28:17
  Yeah.
• 1:28:17
  I mean I've got I'm not expert in it. I don't understand all the things that that was supposed to be the emergency site but they had something set up. But they use immediately say what you know.(...) Again they're just there just so many things and it's not like as you go down these rabbit holes that you go this is a rabbit hole. So these are legitimate issues. So again I think the question that we were kind of discussing is why is there why is there such reluctance for anybody getting into this. It's because people get destroyed. Yeah you get you get punished.
• 1:28:53
  Whether it's whether it's your career or your reputation people lose their lives.
• 1:28:58
  I'm assuming that we don't know anywhere near enough to be in danger from that standpoint. I hope not. I mean we're certainly we're certainly in danger of again I've just what I didn't. Covid is is marginalized me enough in the eyes of the public. I mean my wife was reading your Wikipedia pages. So you I don't I don't even bother reading mine. I mean it's why why subject yourself to that kind of torture. You know. So yeah it's it's we're human beings. We we we I think enjoy or value our integrity our reputation stuff. So you don't you don't do this lightly. But you do it pursuing the truth.
• 1:29:35
  Well I don't frankly feel I mean I don't feel like I have a choice.
• 1:29:42
  And I also would point out the toolkit that is necessary to do this work is the scientific toolkit. And most even most scientists don't really know how to use it. They don't understand the philosophical requirements for a valid hypothesis and how you figure out whether or not it's been refuted. But when you apply those tools to something like this you don't end up discovering that.
• 1:30:08
  It all makes sense. Right. You sure don't. And you do discover you know if you were studying a forest you would know what to do because the questions lead to each other and you pursue them. In this case what happens is the discovery of what is true leads to a social penalty.
• 1:30:27
  (...) Right. It's a kind of don't go there girlfriend response which has nothing to do with the analytics of the matter.
• 1:30:34
  Right. It's not like you've got it wrong.
• 1:30:36
  That's what they say.
• 1:30:37
  And again the alternate theories of what may be true.
• 1:30:41
  You just don't want to contemplate.
• 1:30:43
  Can't can't afford to contemplate it but I think can't afford not to is is the problem.
• 1:30:51
  And you know I do I do think there's a danger hopefully not to us. I think in my case I think probably what protects me is that as annoying as I am to power sometimes doing something about it would make the problem worse not better from their power.
• 1:31:12
  Perspective and we both cleared we're not suicidal. We love life. I'm cling to the you know until the last. Something really horrific. Yeah. Death in sight. Exactly.
• 1:31:24
  And again I think I'd mention this to you. I mean all the things that have happened to me that are serendipitous.
• 1:31:30
  (...) I mean I gave President Trump the chart that end up you know a lot of serendipitous.
• 1:31:37
  The chart that saved his life because he turned his head.
• 1:31:40
  I mean walking down a trail not expecting to see Bret Weinstein in your family. So that's pretty much it was funny your reaction is like oh God somebody recognize and you obviously didn't recognize me because I wasn't in my my Senate costume. But again just the serendipity of that you go with it. Yeah.
• 1:31:59
  Doors are open. I walk in and again I think you are like Bobby Kennedy was with the vaccine injured right. He he he knew he knew the problem with that. OK. That's why he kept him at arm's length for such a long period of time till one of those moms came up to him at his house stack science. I'm not leaving till you read it. He read it into his credit.
• 1:32:21
  Probably to his you know because you're compelled. You see the truth. Your eyes are open. You can't close them.
• 1:32:27
  And that's I think both were. We both are. It's like well again I've seen truth after truth after truth. It's been covered up and hidden in the lies our government tells us routinely at some point. I just I'm going to pursue the truth. I will try and uncover. I'll try and expose it. Try and publicize. And that's kind of the position we're in.
• 1:32:46
  We're we're compelled to do it compelled to do it. And I would say for those who have completely understandable fears about going down these rabbit holes you will discover a much larger percentage of the thinking of the human being. The percentage of the thinking population has already gone down these rabbit holes than you're aware of. People have been trained not to talk about this because of the social consequences but you are not you know you are led to imagine that you are by questioning this a fringe human. And this is just not the case.
• 1:33:20
  And a huge problem now with the internet.
• 1:33:22
  There are a lot of rabbit holes that are rabbit holes. OK.
• 1:33:26
  And people you know praying feed off of that. And so there's monetary benefit for doing that type of thing. So again it's what's getting very difficult is what is the truth. How do you discern it. It's it's it's it's a real challenge. I mean there because first of all we're we're biased. We all have our biases. You hear something go.
• 1:33:48
  I remember you know the onion. Yeah. OK.
• 1:33:52
  First time I ever read the onion my daughter gave us. She's going to UW Madison and there was a story about it just left down the counter. There's a story about Bill Clinton and I was obviously biased to believe anything about Clinton.(...) I'm just reading the story. Why isn't this in the mainstream.
• 1:34:07
  I didn't realize this is a parody joke.
• 1:34:10
  But but I immediately believed it because I could believe that about Bill Clinton.
• 1:34:14
  OK. So again I think we all have to understand our own biases how we're we can easily and and the people who perveys of these these things. They understand that as well. So we're in a tough tough situation with a deep fake solid type thing. It's getting more and more difficult to discern the truth.
• 1:34:31
  Yes. And in fact there's a clock ticking because of the point that I becomes capable of making video that we can't detect a lot of stuff that constitutes evidence like you know the video that was taken of the crash at the Pentagon becomes meaningless because you don't know. Right. What was generated. I mean same thing with the Epstein video. So we've got to get some of this stuff done quickly. I will also just say though on your point about there being lots of rabbit holes that really aren't legitimate. I completely agree with this.
• 1:35:02
  Not only are there lots of people who have engaged in low quality thinking but I also think that one of the tools that those who conspire use is they set tracks. Oh they're false legs. Sure.
• 1:35:17
  Yeah. So they give you something that's you know 70 percent true but contains 30 percent garbage. And if you're uncritical because you're like yeah it was that then you fall into these traps. So what that means is that the whole thing is a puzzle. Can you sort the wheat from the chaff. What is a real signal.
• 1:35:36
  Well as chairman of the European Subcommittee on Foreign Relations I held a hearing on Russians disinformation.
• 1:35:41
  And this 2014 2015 timeframe and what I got out of that was Russia is not trying to convince you of their point of view.
• 1:35:50
  (...) They're just trying to make sure that nobody believes anything. Yeah. And that's kind of again that they get that's the weapon they can use is throw a bunch of other stuff out there that's plausible. You know that feeds into the bias people have. And then when you find out that you got burned on that one it's just going to be that much easier for you to just dismiss.
• 1:36:11
  You know the truth that you don't want to face up to totally.
• 1:36:14
  And it you know the overarching lesson for whoever whoever they is and I assume it's not the Russians in this case but who knows. Is to train you out of the instinct to question which is the last thing that you should allow them to do because you know your ability to question is it's your primary way.
• 1:36:34
  And that's the weapon with which to protect yourself and your family from all sorts of things whether it's you know a dangerous shot or you know have you know being sent to war on a foreign battlefield where we have no business.
• 1:36:46
  So you're my daughter I used to accuse me of being too judgmental. That's what life is right. It's it's a you know it's a series of judgment calls.
• 1:36:57
  Right. In fact you know judgment judgmental makes it sound negative but it's really a question of discernment.
• 1:37:03
  You know you've got signal and you got noise distinguishing the two is the difference between a life wasted and a quality life. And in that light I think we have to figure out how to figure out which of these things are illusions and which of them are sad truths that we have to confront.
• 1:37:23
  Good luck.(...) Glad I met you on that trail.
• 1:37:26
  Yeah I'm really glad that we met on that trail and I want to thank you for doing this. It obviously takes a lot of courage to say these things. The cost is not small in terms of reputation but I think most Americans have realized by now that you are a true patriot and that you do what you do because you believe it's the right thing.
• 1:37:49
  Well you kind of say that and write back at you.