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Why Do I Persist When It's Not Working | Intermittent Reinforcement Explained · The Original Self Podcast

0:00
The numbers are sitting right there on the screen.
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Downloads, average listen duration, click -through
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rate. I look at them longer and more often than
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I actually need to. The upward momentum is barely
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visible. I've spent months putting something
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real out into the world, and yet the graphs still
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almost mirror Florida's very flat terrain. My
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brain reaches its conclusion quickly. No one's
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listening. This isn't going anywhere. And why
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am I still doing this? I sit with that for a
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second. I let it be as ugly as it wants to be.
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And then, quieter, but not gone. There's another
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voice. It isn't very cheerful. It doesn't say,
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you've got this. It's just, stubborn, keep going.
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That's it. That's all it says. Not an argument,
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not a little pep talk, just two words, just scratching
1:13
at the back of my skull. And for reasons I don't
1:16
fully understand, I just keep listening to that
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voice instead of the numbers. Hey, it's Evet.
1:34
That stubborn little voice telling me to keep
1:37
going raises a question I suspect many of us
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have asked ourselves. When something isn't giving
1:44
us the results we hoped for, how do we know whether
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continuing is the act of perseverance or evidence
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that we're having a little trouble letting go
1:56
of it? Because persistence is complicated. We
2:01
tend to speak about persistence as though it's
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always evidence of strength. Keep showing up,
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don't quit before the breakthrough, or success
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might be waiting for you just around the corner.
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And that advice may protect us from abandoning
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something during the slow, unglamorous middle
2:22
of whatever we're doing. But I think persistence
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also has another side to it. Sometimes we can
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remain committed to something because it matters
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deeply to us. Maybe we remain because every once
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in a while something happens that renews our
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hope just enough to keep us invested. Take a
2:48
struggling relationship suddenly gives us one
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wonderful weekend. or a job that regularly drains
2:57
us brings an unexpected compliment from a supervisor,
3:00
or a podcast with nearly flat analytics suddenly
3:10
receives a message from someone who says, I needed
3:13
to hear this. That moment may be very sincere
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and meaningful. And it may also affect our behavior
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in ways we don't consciously recognize. Psychologists
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call that broader pattern intermittent reinforcement.
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In B .F. Skinner's framework, this particular
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version resembles a variable ratio schedule of
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reinforcement. which basically means the reward
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comes after an unpredictable number of attempts
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rather than after every attempt. Because we never
3:54
know which attempt might pay off, we may continue
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the behavior far longer than we would if the
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outcome was predictable. But that doesn't necessarily
4:05
mean continuing is a mistake. It leaves us with
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a harder question. How do we tell the difference
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between persistence rooted in meaning and persistence
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sustained by the hope of receiving that one more
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reward? In this episode, we'll look at why unpredictable
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moments of encouragement can become so powerful.
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How outside responses can influence something
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we originally chose because it mattered to us
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or we believe that it might help someone else.
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And then finally, what we might ask ourselves
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when the numbers say to stop, but something inside
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of us continues to say, keep going. The reason
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I started this podcast is because I knew I could
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reach more people doing this than I could ever
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reach coaching one at a time. Also, after almost
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40 years of working closely with the public,
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and then studying psychology and becoming a life
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coach, I felt I had something valuable to contribute.
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I could see connections among the stories people
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told me with the psychology I was studying and
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then the pattern so many of us experience. I
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also saw how the right coaching questions could
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help someone look at those patterns that they
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perform differently. I believe those connections
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could help people. I also had ambition for the
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podcast. I definitely hope that it will grow.
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I wanted to stand apart in two very crowded spaces,
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podcasting and coaching. So by combining psychological
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research with the kind of human understanding
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that I could only get from decades of listening
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closely to people and noticing what they reveal
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about themselves. That's how the podcast was
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born. And then full stop honesty. I hope that
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one day the podcast might get picked up by a
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company willing to pay me to continue creating
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it and bring it to even a larger audience. That's
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part of my dream, too. I wasn't expecting instant
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success. I mean, not really. I was just hoping
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for the evidence that the podcast was moving
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towards something. That something could be an
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expanding audience, more engagement, and then
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obviously a growing body of work that people
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found useful and want to share. But because podcasting
6:59
was new to me, I asked many friends, family members
7:03
and clients for honest feedback. It was great.
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Some took notes while they listened to the podcast
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and they told me which ideas stayed with them,
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how the episodes made them feel and reflect on
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their own lives and what else they wanted to
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hear. All of their feedback was incredibly encouraging
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to me because they weren't just simply telling
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me, good job. They were engaging with the ideas
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and showing me that something I had said made
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them pause or recognize something in themselves.
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I took that feedback very seriously because I
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wanted to learn. I wanted to get better. When
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I first started the podcast, my focus was primarily
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on what I could offer. But once I began releasing
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episodes, I also had to think about how Everyone
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would find each episode and what would make them
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choose to listen to the next one? And that's
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when even more advice started pouring in. Things
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like post more often, be consistent, pick a lane.
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Turn every episode into multiple pieces of content.
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Strengthen your hook. Sound less like you're
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reading. That was very good advice. Get better
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equipment. Compress the audio. I don't even know
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what that means. Study what performs well. And
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then do more of that, of course. I listened.
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I tried. I implemented almost all of the suggested
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changes. I experimented with social media posts,
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promotional videos, reels, titles, and artwork.
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I... thought very carefully about which few words
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might persuade someone to stop scrolling long
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enough just to listen. Most of the advice was
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very useful. It helped me become much clearer
9:14
and more intentional about how I presented the
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podcast and each episode. But it also changed
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what I paid attention to. Something that began
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as a place to explore why we behave the way we
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do and how we find our way back to our authentic
9:34
selves became something I could measure. Downloads,
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views, clicks, listening time, subscribers. And
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what all that did was make me realize that once
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something can be measured, it becomes very easy
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to let that measurement decide the worth of what
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you're doing. Over the past few months I have
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questioned whether all the time and effort I've
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invested, is it paying off? And whenever I've
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come close to seriously doubting it, I've heard
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or read something completely unexpected. Someone
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might tell me they listened to an episode more
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than once because there was a lot in it that
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they wanted to absorb. I used to think that that
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was a bad thing. Like, oh, I put too many things
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in it. I put too much information in it, but
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they meant it as they really wanted to listen.
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Another person told me that a particular perspective
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stayed with them, that they hadn't thought about
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it that way. And that It made sense to them.
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And then occasionally, a complete stranger comments
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that they recognize a part of their own life
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and something I said. Those responses, they never
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arrive on schedule. I can't predict which episode
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will reach someone or when they will decide to
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tell me about it. Then my friend's kid told me
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about something that happened while he was avoiding
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a task he needed to complete. Instead of doing
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the task, he just decided to clean his room.
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And while he was cleaning, he was listening to
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my episode on procrastination. At one point,
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I described the exact thing he was doing, completing
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a different, less important task to avoid the
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discomfort of beginning the necessary one. He
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laughed when he recognized himself. So he said
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he stopped cleaning and listened to the rest
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of the episode. And when it ended, he went to
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his computer, took the first action required
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to begin the task he had been avoiding, and then
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realized he had broken through the resistance,
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fueling his procrastination. I was totally stoked
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to hear this. Something I had written and recorded
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did exactly what I hoped it would do. It helps
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someone recognize a pattern and take action.
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Yay. Suddenly that mostly flat graph that I've
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been looking at mattered a little bit less. His
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response didn't erase my doubt, but it definitely
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interrupted it for a second. It gave me just
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enough evidence to think maybe the work is reaching
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people in ways the numbers can't show me. So
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I keep going. For a while, you know, I think,
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okay, I'm just trusting my instincts. But I've
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learned enough psychology to know that instinct
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might not be the entire explanation. Sometimes
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the thing that keeps us invested isn't a steady
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reward. It's the possibility that another reward
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might be coming. That possibility that Another
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reward might be coming is exactly what Skinner's
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research speaks to. The most relevant part is
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what happens when rewards become scarce or appear
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to stop altogether. A behavior that's rewarded
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consistently is often easy to abandon once the
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reward disappears. The change is clear. Something
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that used to happen every time is no longer happening.
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But when reinforcement has always been inconsistent,
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its absence doesn't give us the same clarity.
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We're already accustomed to waiting. One attempt
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without a reward doesn't mean anything. Neither
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do five attempts necessarily because we never
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knew how long the wait would be in the first
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place. The absence of a reward can't tell us
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whether it's over or whether it simply hasn't
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happened again yet. That uncertainty is what
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makes the behavior so resistant to what psychologists
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call partial reinforcement extinction effect.
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It's quite a mouthful. What that means is that
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behaviors that are reinforced unpredictably are
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harder to let go of than behaviors reinforced
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every time. Extinction, part of it, is simply
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the term for what happens when a previously reinforced
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behavior gradually fades. And partial reinforcement
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is what slows that fading down. A definite no
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gives us information. Maybe keeps the story open.
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Maybe can appear anywhere that we're waiting
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for an outcome. Think about this. We may wonder
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whether a relationship is slowly improving or
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whether it was one good experience that temporarily
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renewed our hope. Maybe we're questioning whether
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a career opportunity is developing behind the
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scenes or if we're holding on because no one
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has given us a definitive answer. When the outcome
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remains uncertain, Almost any encouraging sign
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can become a reason to wait just a little bit
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longer. I can interpret several weeks of nearly
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flat analytics in two completely different ways.
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I can see it as evidence that the podcast isn't
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growing, of course. Or I can tell myself that
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growth takes time and the right audience hasn't
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found it yet. Then a meaningful response arrives
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and maybe becomes powerful again. Hope returns,
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although no certainty comes along with that.
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And that's where persistence becomes difficult
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to evaluate. Continuing can be an act of patience
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and commitment. It can also be a way of postponing
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a truth we don't want to confront. The fact that
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we're still willing to try doesn't prove that
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continuing is wise. But the absence of immediate
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success doesn't prove that stopping is wise either.
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Intermittent reinforcement can help explain why
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I continue the behavior. It can't tell me whether
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the behavior is still aligned with what I value.
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For that, I have to look beyond the reward and
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ask what was motivating me before it arrived.
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Psychologists Edward Deci and Richard Ryan
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developed a theory called self -determination
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theory to explain not just what motivates us,
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but also the quality of that motivation. If it
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comes from inside of us or from something outside
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of us. I started this podcast because I believed
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I could help people. I also enjoy the work itself,
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like finding the connections, writing about them,
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and then translating what I learn into something
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someone can use. That's intrinsic motivation.
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It comes from within me. But like I had told
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you, I wanted the podcast to grow. I want people
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to recognize its value. And yes, I hope it might
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lead to a paid opportunity someday. That's extrinsic
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motivation. outside of me. Both can be completely
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true at the same time. Someone can find genuine
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purpose in their work and still want the promotion.
18:08
A person can exercise because it makes them feel
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good but still enjoy being told that they look
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pretty good. Or someone can create something
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because the process itself was satisfying but
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still hope people will buy it. Self -determination
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theory says that healthy motivation rests on
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three needs. Autonomy, which is like choosing
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what we do rather than being controlled by outside
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pressure. The second is competence, that's feeling
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like our efforts are actually landing. And then
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relatedness, feeling connected to other people
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through whatever we do. This podcast feeds my
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autonomy because I get to choose what it's about.
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It feeds my confidence when someone tells me
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something I said stayed with them. And then it
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feeds my relatedness when a listener recognizes
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their own life in an episode. Where the trouble
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begins is when an outside response becomes the
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only evidence that the work is worthwhile. Certain
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external rewards, especially ones that feel expected
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or controlled, can actually weaken an interest
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that used to come from within yourself. What
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we chose starts to become something we perform
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in order to get the reward. But not every outside
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response has that effect. A listener's message
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is an external reward. it can still feed competence
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and relatedness at the same time. You know, still
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reconnect me to why I'm doing this. I can feel
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that connection and I still want the validation
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of the rising graph. So maybe the more useful
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question isn't whether my motivation is intrinsic
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or extrinsic. Maybe it's which one is making
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the decision for me right now. That question
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sounds so simple until I try to answer it honestly.
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My motivations are usually mixed. So what if
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I started with asking myself, am I committed
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to this purpose or how I become attached to one
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particular outcome? That one alone takes some
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time sitting with that question for me. Then
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a few more, you know, quieter or just as pointed
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questions are, if the next effort, when I noticed,
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would there should be value in making it? What
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part of this matters independently of the response
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I receive? How much does it matter to me? And
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then I think the one that's harder to answer
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than it sounds for me is What would I change
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if I weren't waiting for the next reward to reassure
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me that this is good? Those questions, they're
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not going to guarantee a clear answer. But they
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do shift my attention away from waiting for reassurance
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and then realizing that the decision is on me.
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It comes back to me. Author of Atomic Habits,
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James Clear, has this newsletter. It's called
21:40
3-2-1. He said in the newsletter, I read it, winning
21:47
isn't what makes you feel good. Growth is what
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makes you feel good. And I truly needed to hear
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that because I have these moments of doubt and
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hesitation. And I think that distinction matters.
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Take winning. Winning depends on a particular
22:07
outcome, right? The numbers rise, the audience
22:09
expands, the opportunities arrive. But growth
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can happen even when none of that has. I may
22:21
be becoming a stronger writer, definitely a clearer
22:25
communicator, and for sure a better researcher.
22:32
I also may be learning which advice is useful
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and which advice is pulling me away from what
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I actually was trying to create. Growth doesn't
22:44
require me to pretend that the outcome no longer
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matters. I still want the podcast to succeed.
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But if winning is the only result that I'm willing
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to count, I think I'll miss what the work is
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already producing in me. I think persistence
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doesn't mean repeating the same approach forever.
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We can stay committed to a goal while, you know,
23:11
changing the strategy. We could change the pace,
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the amount of energy we're investing, if we ask
23:19
for help or not. And then what does meaningful
23:23
progress even look like? In a career that might
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mean pursuing the same purpose through a different
23:32
role. Change it up. In a relationship, it might
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mean staying open to repair without accepting
23:40
the same harmful pattern again and again. And
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with a personal goal, it could just be adjusting
23:48
the plan instead of treating one failed attempt
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as the proof that we're incapable. Changing direction
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isn't always giving up. I mean, sometimes it
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means we're finally paying attention. Concept.
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I can believe in the purpose of the podcast without
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believing that every part of my current approach
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is working. I know it's not. Maybe the healthiest
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form of persistence isn't blind continuation
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or abruptly walking away. Maybe it's simply staying
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connected to the purpose while remaining willing
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to change the plan. When I look at the analytics
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now, the graph has not magically changed, but
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my questions have. Instead of asking myself,
24:45
why am I still doing this? I can ask, am I still
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choosing this? For now, The answer is yes. And
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it's not because I've been promised that the
24:58
next episode will be the one that changes everything.
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It's not because I believe persistence always
25:04
leads to success. I'm choosing it because I still
25:08
have something to say. I'm still curious about
25:12
the ideas I explore and I still believe the work
25:15
has the potential to help people. There may come
25:20
a time when my answer is different. Who knows?
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And if that happens, stopping won't necessarily
25:29
mean I failed or gave up too soon. It might mean
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I paid attention long enough to recognize that
25:37
the work or my relationship with it has changed.
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Maybe the thing you're questioning is a relationship,
25:47
a career, a personal goal. or a future you've
25:51
invested years imagining? The question isn't
25:56
simply how much longer can we hold on. It's whether
26:00
we're still consciously choosing this or just
26:04
waiting for the next reward to decide for us.
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The stubborn voice in our head still says, keep
26:11
going. But this time, it's not just obedience.
26:19
This time the answer is yes. For now. By choice.
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That answer is ours. I'm Evet DeCota. If this
26:33
episode resonated with you and you'd like to
26:35
connect with me, all of my information is in
26:38
this episode's notes. I thank you so much for
26:42
listening and I hope you have a great day. The
26:50
Original Self Podcast