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Gonzo Santillan Interview · What You Have Seen and Heard

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Well hello again and welcome back to another episode of What You Have Seen and Heard.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: The name comes from when Jesus sent the delegation from John the Baptist back to him.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: They asked him, are you the Christ or should I wait for somebody else?
0:11
SPEAKER_01: And he says, go tell him what you have seen and heard and listed all the miracles.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: My name is Travis Stevick.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm a pastor in Northwest Iowa,
0:18
SPEAKER_01: and the whole purpose of this is a series of conversations with people from across
0:22
SPEAKER_01: the Upper Midwest Conference of the Global Methodist Church,
0:25
SPEAKER_01: just to get to know each other and to hear various stories and to see how God's
0:28
SPEAKER_01: at work in every corner of our conference.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Today is the first time I'm having a second guest from the same local church.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: We talked to Matt Kearns from Marian Methodist a while back,
0:38
SPEAKER_01: but today we have as our guest Gonzo Santijan,
0:41
SPEAKER_01: who is the Minister of Discipleship at Marian Methodist Church.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: So I'd like to, so Gonzo, welcome to this conversation.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: I just want to say you said my last name perfectly.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: So the question I start with everybody is just tell us your story
0:58
SPEAKER_01: about how is it you came to become a Christian or if you've been
1:01
SPEAKER_01: a Christian your whole life,
1:03
SPEAKER_01: how did you come at some point to start taking your faith really seriously?
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you again for the invite.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: As you might be able to tell, I didn't grow up in the United States.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Argentina, the last country in the south by the mountains.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: I was blessed to be born in a Christian home.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: But when I was about,
1:29
SPEAKER_00: I would say maybe five or six,
1:32
SPEAKER_00: my parents,
1:32
SPEAKER_00: although they were Christians and churchgoers,
1:35
SPEAKER_00: they had a very strong encounter with God.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, you know, their faith was awakened.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: So they started to seek more of God and really live out their faith.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't just a faith of Sundays, but it was a faith of like, it meant something to them.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: And Although they weren't saying, hey, kids, because we're four siblings, you need to do this.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: We could see it.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: We could see in our parents that they were passionate about their faith,
2:03
SPEAKER_00: about sharing God with others.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: And early on, my dad was actually, felt a call into missional ministry, right?
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: And he was bivocational because he had another job,
2:18
SPEAKER_00: but he felt called to go into the mountains of Argentina and small villages
2:23
SPEAKER_00: that didn't have much and be able to support the little churches there to the point
2:28
SPEAKER_00: that he started using his He was a videographer and photographer when back
2:33
SPEAKER_00: then were like, you only had a few of those.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: But he decided to use those gifts and he created a documentary about those little churches.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And he went to different parts of Argentina to share that video and tell people,
2:47
SPEAKER_00: hey,
2:48
SPEAKER_00: there are churches,
2:48
SPEAKER_00: there are Christians here that are walking miles to just come to one church.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Right?
2:54
SPEAKER_00: By the mountains.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: They don't have electricity.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: They don't have anything.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: But God is doing something.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: But I want you to support them.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: And through that, they were able to, you know, bring missionaries in.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And then they brought this first electric...
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Generator that use, you know, wind, wind generator.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: And I was able to be part of that mission trip when I was eight.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: That was my first ever mission trip.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: My dad just took me with him.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do much,
3:21
SPEAKER_00: but I got to enjoy that experience and really see how much it meant for
3:27
SPEAKER_00: the people there.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So seeds were planted in my life.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: And when I became a teenager, I realized, you know, faith could be my own, right?
3:38
SPEAKER_00: And so I made friends, a youth group, a church, and I was going to church just on my own.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: Nobody was pulling me to church.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And because I found that community, faith became my own.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: And that was something that made a difference.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: But as many people who grew up in a church, sometimes you take it for granted, right?
4:01
SPEAKER_00: You get busy.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: I was a busy guy.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: I loved doing sports like many people nowadays.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I loved doing music.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: I was a drummer.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: And then when I was 18, had my first serious girlfriend.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: I remember that, you know, thinking, oh, this girl I'm going to marry.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: And I had all these plans to go and become a drummer, go and study music and all of that.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: And then one day everything was gone.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: No girlfriend, plans weren't working out.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: And I fell into this, I would say not depression, but very close to a depression.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: I didn't see hope.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I was feeling lonely.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: I was feeling isolated.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: And I felt that all my plans were, you know, just not working out.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know what to do.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: I remember talking to my parents and they said, well, we'll pray for you.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: But I knew within my heart that I had to go to God.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: So I started to lock myself in my bedroom and just crying out to God, God, I need you.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what I'm going to do.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do to get out of this anxiety, this depression, this loneliness.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling this isolation.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: I need you.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know exactly when it happened.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: It happened the third day, but I remember doing it every day.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: But one day I did feel His presence.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: In that little room,
5:32
SPEAKER_00: in my bedroom,
5:33
SPEAKER_00: I felt God's presence for, I would say, maybe the first time in that way.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: And I felt that peace, that peace that goes beyond our understanding.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: And in that time, I tasted and got to sense God close to me.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted that.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like all my...
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Hopelessness was gone just in that moment.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: And I loved it.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: And so I started crying out to God.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I felt convicted.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: And it was an interesting way because I didn't feel guilt, but I felt conviction.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like God was saying to me,
6:13
SPEAKER_00: you are living a great life, but I'm not first in your life, right?
6:18
SPEAKER_00: You have your plans, your dreams, your relationships, and all of that.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: And I'm maybe fourth, fifth in your life.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: But you have an option.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: You can follow me or you can follow your plans.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: And if you follow your plans,
6:32
SPEAKER_00: your dreams, you might be able to succeed and maybe do great things, right?
6:36
SPEAKER_00: Become a famous drummer, famous musician, do a great career, but without me.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Or what you can do is you can follow me.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: The future might be uncertain, but I'm going to be with you always.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: And I remember realizing that and I was, wow, wow.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: I need that.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: I cannot live without God.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: I've tasted and seen the love of God.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: And I needed that.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: And without hesitation, honestly, maybe I didn't know what I was getting myself into.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: And I said to God, yes, I'll follow you.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: I'll follow you no matter what.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
7:15
SPEAKER_00: and I think that day I had a strong encounter with God and my life changed for
7:19
SPEAKER_00: the better.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: But again, you know, I thought, you know what?
7:23
SPEAKER_00: I found a great university in the south of Argentina.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to move there to study music.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Already applied.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Already was almost accepted.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: I got an apartment down there.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: I had a place to live.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: I told all the people and my friends, my mentors, my parents, everybody was supporting me.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: It's like, that is the plan.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're going to do.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: But slowly.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: As I got closer to that time, that peace, I had to go there, it started to leave me.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: And I started feeling uneasy about that.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: And so I started praying about it.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like, God, is this still what you want me to do?
8:04
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like, no, it wasn't that.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: So I started talking to, maybe it's just me.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just like, I want to do something else.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: And I talked to people in my church.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: I was surprised to hear that most people thought like, what?
8:17
SPEAKER_00: No, you need to go.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: That's your plan.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And I remember getting an email because I signed up for a newsletter about YWA,
8:27
SPEAKER_00: Youth with Mission.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: And I remember getting just a general information about this place,
8:35
SPEAKER_00: this mission base called Homestead Manor in England,
8:39
SPEAKER_00: in the U.K., I don't know why I felt drawn to that.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: So I emailed them.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: They responded pretty quickly.
8:46
SPEAKER_00: And for some reason, I was drawn to that.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: So I started praying about that.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: And I felt more drawn to that.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: I felt like God was leading me to that place.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Less peace about going down and studying music in the south of Argentina.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: More peace about going and signing up for this discipleship training school was
9:05
SPEAKER_00: the name of that course.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: It was basically almost a year ago.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: Of dedicating, you know, your life to serving God.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Learning was like a Bible school that had a mission trip,
9:15
SPEAKER_00: like a two to three months mission trip at the end.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: And I talked to my parents and said, I don't know what to do.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: I felt drawn to this.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: And they said to me very wisely, it's like, if you feel God is calling you, we'll support you.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: We'll pray for you.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: We'll support you.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: And that's how kind of like...
9:36
SPEAKER_00: That step into faith saying, God, I'm going to give you everything.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: I had that encounter with God led me to ministry in a way I didn't realize.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: So that's a little bit of my story, how I grew up in a Christian home.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: My faith became real.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: I encountered God and surrendered to Him, not really knowing what was going to happen.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: But now looking back, I think it's been the best decision I've ever taken.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: So not only did you give your life to Jesus in a profound way,
10:07
SPEAKER_01: but you are currently,
10:09
SPEAKER_01: so you're a minister of discipleship is the title that you've got.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: And I know that you had done some other work before all that.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: So what was it like for you to feel God's call into ministry?
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And since I know it's changed forms a little bit over the years,
10:23
SPEAKER_01: how did that calling shift over time?
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: So...
10:31
SPEAKER_00: Different than maybe many people,
10:33
SPEAKER_00: and I think God's call is very unique for all of us,
10:37
SPEAKER_00: and I love to hear people's stories.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: In my case, I never even planned to be ever a pastor or even to serve the local church.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: I had my own plans, my own dreams.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: And again,
10:50
SPEAKER_00: when I surrendered everything to God,
10:52
SPEAKER_00: I felt that that was the right thing to do, but I didn't know what was next.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: And I felt in my faith life,
10:59
SPEAKER_00: and I think in many,
11:00
SPEAKER_00: many situations like that, you following Jesus is one step at a time.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: We all want to see the whole plan.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: We all want to see the whole picture.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to do that.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: But I felt God say, all right, come to England.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: That's the first step.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: How?
11:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Because to continue that story,
11:18
SPEAKER_00: when I felt called to the UK and to do that discipleship training school,
11:22
SPEAKER_00: I thought, okay,
11:23
SPEAKER_00: maybe God wants me to dedicate a year,
11:25
SPEAKER_00: learn about Him, and get back and keep going on my plans.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: So I decided to step out in faith.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Again, I didn't have money.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how I was going to do that.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: The school was, you know, fairly expensive.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: But I felt that was the right thing to do.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: So it was honestly in faith stepping into that and say, okay, I'm going to go.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: I just saved some money for my ticket to England and my visa a tiny bit for
11:53
SPEAKER_00: a portion of the school.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: But I still had a long ways to go.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times it is that the first goal is initial and I step into
12:03
SPEAKER_00: that, not knowing what was going to happen later.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was going to be a year.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: Long story short,
12:10
SPEAKER_00: I stayed in missions with Y1 for five years and I got to travel all over the world,
12:17
SPEAKER_00: really taking teams of young people,
12:20
SPEAKER_00: young adults, you know, to Europe, to Asia, to North Africa, all over that.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: Got to be part of a team pioneering missions in the northern part of England,
12:35
SPEAKER_00: in the city of York.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful city, by the way.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: I know you've been to England, but I'm not sure if you've been to York.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: I live in Scotland,
12:45
SPEAKER_01: so I've only been in England as much as in an airport,
12:48
SPEAKER_01: but the north of that island is beautiful.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you know, yeah, a little bit of that.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: But the city is beautiful, so I got to be part of that.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: But God did amazing things there.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: And I was doing missions, and I loved missions.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Because at least our philosophy of missions,
13:07
SPEAKER_00: or the reason why Y1 was created was because back then,
13:10
SPEAKER_00: if you wanted to be a missionary, there was a lot of hurdles you had to jump, right?
13:15
SPEAKER_00: So the founder of Y1 felt that God was calling him to...
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Mobilize young people into missions, right?
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Equipping them, but also sending them.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: So it was very innovative.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: If you love arts, in my case, I love music.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: We sometimes would form a band and go into the streets of Budapest.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: And start playing worship music and talking to people and evangelizing, right?
13:42
SPEAKER_00: And if you love soccer,
13:43
SPEAKER_00: you started a soccer club and then invited people from the community
13:47
SPEAKER_00: and got together.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: And after a soccer game,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: you just did devotionals and talked to people and were in the community, right?
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Where I felt that the local church was very stagnant, very inside of the four walls.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Sure, if they did a mission trip, they did one every now and then, right?
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And so in my head, I was like, no, God's calling me to this.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be working or serving the local church.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to do missions.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Of course, I went to church and I believed in the local church.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: By my head, I was doing that.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: I was blessed to meet my lovely wife in England.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: And the funny story is that she grew up in Iowa.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: And so I grew up in Argentina.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: She grew up in Iowa.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: We met all the way in England.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: When I met her for the first time, I was like, where's Iowa?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: But when we got married, we decided to move to the States.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And I was praying during that season.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: I was working for a Christian high school in northern Minnesota.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: And I was praying what was next, right?
14:58
SPEAKER_00: And slowly I felt God was calling me to the local church.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, God, why?
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Why the local church?
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, if I'm honest, I don't like that.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And God started transforming my heart saying like,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: through the church, I'm transforming the world.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: The church is my bride, right?
15:22
SPEAKER_00: I gave my life for my church.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: And slowly he started to give me a heart for the local church.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, where do I start?
15:31
SPEAKER_00: And because I've had a lot of experience in youth ministry,
15:34
SPEAKER_00: I was like, maybe I can start doing that.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: I love investing in young people.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm passionate about helping young people find and fulfill
15:42
SPEAKER_00: the purpose God might have in their lives.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's that.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: And I remember I had to decide if I had to continue working for
15:52
SPEAKER_00: that Christian high school or step out.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a church where I was going to work.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, the deadline was there.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: So I felt I talked to my wife.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: We didn't have kids.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: She was actually pregnant at the moment with our first child.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And we prayed and decided to step out of faith again.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: We don't have a place where to go.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: So I started applying for churches.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: And stuff like that.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't find a job, to be honest.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: A month went by, two months went by, three months went by.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: I got a job as a landscaper with a company there,
16:30
SPEAKER_00: just working all day and applying during the evenings,
16:32
SPEAKER_00: doing interviews and doing different things.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: I was praying, is this really you, God?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, did I just messed up, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm about to have a kid and living with my in-laws and it's just like, do you know what to do?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: And one day God opened the door to work at Methodist Church in Illinois and in the Chicago area.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: And I have worked in the past a little bit with the Methodist Church.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: And the other experience I had with the Methodist Church was my parents.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: When I was a teen, they moved to this small church plant that happened to be a Methodist Church.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: And I remember loving it because it was very homey.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: It was very welcoming.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: It was like, you know, they did everything together.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: And they met in a garage.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: I just love the feel of that.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: And that was the first time I heard actually open communion and say,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: everybody's welcome to the table and all of that.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: So I have a good experience in that sense.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: But then other than that, I didn't know much about the Methodist Church.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: So I started reading about it and praying about it.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: And they really were very welcoming to me.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like God was saying, yes, go there.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's how I started my ministry in the local church
17:59
SPEAKER_00: and how God started shifting my calling there.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: So I served as a youth pastor there
18:06
SPEAKER_01: for six years in the Chicago
18:09
SPEAKER_00: area.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And then after that,
18:13
SPEAKER_00: we wanted to,
18:13
SPEAKER_00: you know, pray about it, wanted to move closer to family and all of that.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And God opened the door and married Methodist as well.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm here.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And God kept shifting and everything was one step at a time in faith.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And now I feel home.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Now I feel home.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Not just about being a mere Methodist, but being part of the Global Methodist Church.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Because when I started everything, the Global Methodist Church didn't exist.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm, in a way, part of it.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited to be where I am now.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: So in particular,
18:54
SPEAKER_01: my understanding is you are a candidate for ordained ministry in
18:59
SPEAKER_01: the Globe Methodist Church and you're attending seminary.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: And unlike the other folks I've talked to so far in this,
19:05
SPEAKER_01: you are actually doing,
19:06
SPEAKER_01: you're not doing a course of study, you're doing a master's degree at Asbury.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's correct.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: So what has the process and the schooling been like from your point of view?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: So to continue, because I think I started from the beginning and it keeps going.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: And so with that, I wasn't planning to even be ordained.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: So I, you know,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: when I came to Mary Methodist,
19:34
SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, I, again, I know God's calling me here.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: This is what God wants me.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: I was almost a hundred
19:43
SPEAKER_01: percent sure of that.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, I'm here and now I'm going to be here.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: I feel also that I should get more of a formal theological education.
19:54
SPEAKER_00: I love learning always, you know, I read always and all of that.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: But it's like, you know what?
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Now I feel I'm going to be here for a while.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a good time to go to seminary.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: And I was initially thinking to go to Fuller in California because I worked with them before.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: I was part of cohorts with them.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: I know Grace Seminary.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: But again,
20:15
SPEAKER_00: how funny,
20:16
SPEAKER_00: when we yield our will to God's will,
20:19
SPEAKER_00: a lot of times He kind of changes our plans, right?
20:21
SPEAKER_00: For the better.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: Because His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So I was going to Fuller and I checked out Asbury.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: I knew Asbury was a good seminary, but I'm going to check it out and maybe see what happens.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: My experience was when I checked out Asbury, first of all, I felt like
20:42
SPEAKER_00: God was very tangible within the seminary.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: All the way from the advisors were like, man, we'll pray for you.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: We want God's will for you.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: If God is leading you here to Asbury, that's what we want.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: But if God doesn't lead you to Asbury,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: we'll pray that God will lead you to the right seminary and all of that.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: When I checked different seminaries, I felt like, oh, sure, you can apply here.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Good luck, basically, right?
21:10
SPEAKER_00: So I really love that spirit-filled community that I sense within Asbury.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: So I signed up to Asbury, not even thinking, no, I don't need to be ordained.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm doing everything that I'm supposed to do here.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm married Methodist, right?
21:28
SPEAKER_00: And because, you know, I believe that not all people are called to be ordained.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: They can do ministry and well without being ordained as well.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And when I went to,
21:39
SPEAKER_00: started doing Asbury,
21:41
SPEAKER_00: doing a master's there,
21:43
SPEAKER_00: I started getting to know professors,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: and I started learning more about Wesleyan theology,
21:48
SPEAKER_00: which, to be honest, I didn't know much about.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: I worked for a Methodist church for,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: you know, at that time, maybe seven years, almost eight years.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have much of an idea what Methodism was.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So I started falling in love with it.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: And then I started realizing the vision that these professors,
22:13
SPEAKER_00: some of them were elders in the Global Methodist Church by this time,
22:16
SPEAKER_00: and telling me about the vision they had for the future of
22:19
SPEAKER_00: the Global Methodist Church.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And slowly I started realizing, like, I arrived home.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: because I mean,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a very conservative,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:34
SPEAKER_00: tradition actually where it was brother,
22:36
SPEAKER_00: brethren,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: that came from England and they planted a lot of churches in South America.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Mine was one of them, very, very, you know, strong in scripture.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: But very legalistic at the same time.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: But I also had experiences through Y1 and all of that with the other extreme,
22:53
SPEAKER_00: super charismatic, all about signs and wonders.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And I never felt home.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: But when I came to understand,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: learn more about Wesleyan theology,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I realized that it had all the robust theology grounded in scripture with spirit
23:12
SPEAKER_00: in it.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, to allow the spirit to move within that.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: And I realized that, wow, this is awesome.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: Why I never learned about this?
23:19
SPEAKER_00: So I started getting more passionate about it.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: And because I do youth ministry, a lot of our young people didn't know about it.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: And also was a time that realized a lot of young people,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: because our church were blessed to have,
23:31
SPEAKER_00: you know, to always have had a good, strong youth ministry.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: From our church, a lot of young people Came from our youth ministry going into being pastors.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: But a lot of those pastors were losing them to other churches, right?
23:47
SPEAKER_00: And I realized that one of the reasons maybe that was
23:51
SPEAKER_00: because we weren't teaching them strong theology and grounding them in Scripture.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: So I started realizing we need to do more of that.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: And as I was praying and talking with pastors from the Global Methodist Church,
24:07
SPEAKER_00: I found myself more excited to be part of what was going to come
24:13
SPEAKER_00: within our denomination.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm a person that loves envisioning new things,
24:20
SPEAKER_00: dreaming, and just looking what the future could be.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And I saw a huge need.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think a need in society that we can meet with people that
24:33
SPEAKER_00: are seeking truth,
24:35
SPEAKER_00: but also freedom from God.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: No, freedom from the world in God, right?
24:45
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: and that's why I felt like God was leading me into ordained ministry to be a part
24:51
SPEAKER_00: of what the Global Methodist Church is and could be in the future as well.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: I really resonate with that part of that story because I didn't grow up in
25:01
SPEAKER_01: the church,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: but as long as I've been a Christian, I've been part of a Methodist church.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: But it just happened because that's where the Methodists are the ones who reach out
25:08
SPEAKER_01: to me and invited me along.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: And I found myself getting ready for seminary.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: I started reading John Wesley.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: And the more I read of John Wesley, the more...
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I loved what I was reading.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: And it was funny because at the same time,
25:20
SPEAKER_01: the more I learned about some of the other historic leaders, the more I went, ah.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: And I probably actually overreacted about some of them, right?
25:27
SPEAKER_01: They're not really as bad as all that.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: But I remember having a time where I said out loud,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: I said, the more I learned about Wesley, the more I like him.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: And the more I learned about Calvin and Luther, the less I like them.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, I think that's an overstatement.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: But it was amazing to see God's providence in place that it was clear
25:43
SPEAKER_01: that God had used the people...
25:46
SPEAKER_01: Who are part of the Methodist tradition to draw me in where I needed to be,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: you know, theologically.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: I really found it so compelling.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: No, I was going to say,
26:01
SPEAKER_00: being part of seminary right now while doing full-time ministry,
26:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it's been,
26:05
SPEAKER_00: it's not easy because, you know, time-wise I have four kids as well.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: It's been packed,
26:11
SPEAKER_00: but I've been enjoying it because everything you're learning,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: you're pouring into it.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: Ministried right away, right?
26:18
SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's been a great experience really being able to also,
26:25
SPEAKER_00: you know, tell people, it's like, do you know that how Methodists were born, right?
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Do you know like the fire people had?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: What happens?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, I experienced the Methodist church when it was almost dead, right?
26:39
SPEAKER_00: And I have colleagues that,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: that have a view of the Methodist church,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: but they don't realize that Where the Methodist Church was born was like,
26:49
SPEAKER_00: you know, a revival.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why I'm excited about going back to the roots of real Methodism,
26:58
SPEAKER_00: you know, within our churches and really seeing that again.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, yeah,
27:04
SPEAKER_01: very excited.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting you say, because one of the things that I'm an advocate for, Yeah.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: But I think there's a real beauty to the mental discipline of not just saying,
28:00
SPEAKER_01: well, what do I hear when I open the Bible?
28:03
SPEAKER_01: But also to hear from the great cloud of witnesses throughout church history and
28:08
SPEAKER_01: the great thinkers and the people who can challenge us.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Not that they're always right,
28:13
SPEAKER_01: but for me, it was helpful to learn I have a better picture of the whole landscape.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: So it's one of those things where if I hear something that I think is
28:20
SPEAKER_01: a little bit odd, I go, okay,
28:21
SPEAKER_01: I know a bit of where that's coming from because I know some more of the history
28:24
SPEAKER_01: and I know some more of the theological landscape.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: So that's just kind of a commercial for anybody who's on the fence
28:29
SPEAKER_01: about potentially considering formal theological education.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: I think there is,
28:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:35
SPEAKER_01: there's a definite possibility that it might be,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: I think it will help your discipleship.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Throw that out there.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I got the warning As I was going into,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: and even before,
28:48
SPEAKER_00: into seminary thinking like,
28:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: actually,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: you know, seminary actually a lot of times kills your spiritual life, right?
28:55
SPEAKER_00: And having that in the back of my mind, I don't know if it helped, maybe it did.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: But in my case, it was the opposite because, you know, I think you need to practice it, right?
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Sure, knowledge by itself, you know, it is dead.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: But when it is fueled by the Spirit and you put into practice with your brothers
29:16
SPEAKER_00: and sisters in Christ,
29:17
SPEAKER_00: that's where it really takes a new meaning, a new level there.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, absolutely.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Can you share a bit about what is God doing in Marian Methodist in general,
29:31
SPEAKER_01: but more particularly where you have some specific role?
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: So again,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: I want to say this because I've been doing now youth ministry,
29:44
SPEAKER_00: I think for 15, about 15 years or 16.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I'm losing the count now.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, sure, I learned a lot through my experience and all of that.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I haven't been doing something new or something extraordinary, right?
30:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, something I'm doing for sure is being a little bit bolder to...
30:09
SPEAKER_00: You know,
30:10
SPEAKER_00: put Christ at the center and no worry too much about what other society
30:16
SPEAKER_00: or people would think.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: And the interesting part of that is that,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: I believe, is when God starts to grow and bear fruit, right?
30:29
SPEAKER_00: It's not really about all the strategies.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: It's good to have strategies, but it's not about that, right?
30:34
SPEAKER_00: When God is at the center, He's the one that transforms lives and all of that.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: So we've seen growth within our ministries and seeing people coming hungry for more.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: Something that is very unique lately is how many young people are coming without their families.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I was so used to Kids coming because their parents come to church, right?
31:00
SPEAKER_00: Or the most faithful kids were because their families were very faithful to the church.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's a good thing.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: But seeing a lot of kids coming because they know they need something.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Or the parents don't necessarily want them to be part of a tradition,
31:17
SPEAKER_00: but they come anyways, right?
31:20
SPEAKER_00: Quick story.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: We had a kid come.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: About a year and so ago, right?
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Came to church invited by another.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: He was already curious.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: He was invited by another friend to the youth group.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
31:34
SPEAKER_00: he encountered God and gave his life to Christ and started,
31:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:38
SPEAKER_00: coming and coming and being,
31:40
SPEAKER_00: you know, very, very hungry for God to the point that he decided to get baptized.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: He got baptized and, you know, kept giving.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: He came to camp as well that summer.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: And that summer also he kind of like surrendered everything to Christ, went back home.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: And the following summer,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: which was a year later,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: right, his family that didn't come to a church got baptized, the whole family.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: So one kid came and brought his whole family to church and all of them got baptized
32:14
SPEAKER_00: a year later.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: And God is doing things like that, and it's nothing that I can take credit for.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: It's nothing that,
32:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:21
SPEAKER_00: I think what I'm just trying to do is see where God is doing good things and trying
32:26
SPEAKER_00: to join Him there.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's very exciting, I think.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm very excited for,
32:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:35
SPEAKER_00: where we are at as a church,
32:37
SPEAKER_00: too, because there's so much more that, you know, that could happen.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: They are,
32:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: another thing I'm excited about is investing in young people and for people
32:49
SPEAKER_00: to understand biblical foundations,
32:53
SPEAKER_00: strong theology too,
32:55
SPEAKER_00: and mostly those ones that are feeling a nudge to go into ministry.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: Because like I was telling you,
33:00
SPEAKER_00: it's like so many,
33:02
SPEAKER_00: and maybe I'm sure you know,
33:03
SPEAKER_00: people that grew up in the Methodist church and you ask them,
33:05
SPEAKER_00: what does it mean to be a Methodist?
33:07
SPEAKER_00: They'll say, I don't know.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Be a nice person.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: And so many, I still ask them, hey, do you know what it means to be a Methodist?
33:17
SPEAKER_00: And they'll tell me the same.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: So I'm passionate about saying, hey, look,
33:22
SPEAKER_00: we have a very,
33:23
SPEAKER_00: I believe God used this group of people at this time to really bring revival.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: And I believe he wants to do the same.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: So it's good for us to learn from that.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, from that tradition and to be grounded in Scripture.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite parts is, you know, the Wesleyan quadrilateral.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Why?
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Because personally, I like to think, you know, logically about things.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: I like to question things, right?
33:51
SPEAKER_00: I like to reason with things, right?
33:53
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I believe that, you know, the gifts of the Spirit are for today.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: So...
34:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, Wesleyan theology with that quadrilateral, you know, you're grounded in scripture.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: That's the basis for everything.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: But then you can use reason.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: God created a reason, right?
34:11
SPEAKER_00: He created a logic to think logically, right?
34:14
SPEAKER_00: But also we have the tradition of many,
34:17
SPEAKER_00: like you said, the cloud of witnesses, people that we can learn from.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: God has been working throughout history, right?
34:23
SPEAKER_00: And we can learn from them as well.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: And all of that together, right?
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Brings a robust faith,
34:32
SPEAKER_00: a robust faith that we can use all of that and know what is from God and what is not
34:38
SPEAKER_00: from God.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And so I love to kind of share that with the students and teach them in
34:44
SPEAKER_00: a way they can learn and grow and be grounded in Scripture
34:48
SPEAKER_00: and surrender really everything.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Now, you use the word quadrilateral,
34:53
SPEAKER_01: and for some people who might be watching this, that is a triggering word.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: So I want to at least,
34:57
SPEAKER_01: I want to,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: I agree with you,
34:59
SPEAKER_01: I want to say,
34:59
SPEAKER_01: but I want to make sure I'm clear to anybody who might be watching this who only has
35:02
SPEAKER_01: a negative experience of the Wesleyan quadrilateral.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: It is true that,
35:06
SPEAKER_01: so the quadrilateral is a tool that was developed by a guy named Albert Outler,
35:11
SPEAKER_01: and he basically says we use four main resources for doing our faith,
35:14
SPEAKER_01: scripture, reason, tradition, and experience.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: And The problem that many people face with that is that if you treat all of those
35:21
SPEAKER_01: as equally important, you're going to come to some problems.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: And also,
35:24
SPEAKER_01: if you misunderstand what experience means,
35:26
SPEAKER_01: because some people were saying,
35:27
SPEAKER_01: well, starting from my experience, this is what I conclude about God.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: But Wesley meant things like when we teach about And so if you are the kind
35:33
SPEAKER_01: of person who hears the term Wesleyan quadrilateral and you get a little nervous,
35:37
SPEAKER_01: I want to advocate and suggest that perhaps you have only experienced
35:39
SPEAKER_01: the quadrilateral in a negative sense that's been used badly.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: What God's saying here is absolutely correct that actually when used correctly,
35:45
SPEAKER_01: when used in a Wesleyan way,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: It is a very powerful, liberating tool that is deeply scripturally rooted.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: So I just want to put that out there just in case anyone hears that term
36:08
SPEAKER_01: and stop listening when you heard the word quadrilateral because it's not as bad
36:12
SPEAKER_01: as all that.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: And as a new Methodist, you know, I saw this tool.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: It's like this amazing.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you why.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: So I grew up again, you know, as a Christian.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: And when my parents had these encounters with God, they also...
36:29
SPEAKER_00: We went to different churches, some very biblical churches, some not so very biblical churches.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And I remember being sent to a camp as a kid, I might have been 10.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: And it was a very,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: very charismatic camp,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: but to the point that they were seeking signs and wonders, right?
36:49
SPEAKER_00: And I remember specifically one evening, they were teaching you how to speak in tongues, right?
36:55
SPEAKER_00: This leader was saying,
36:57
SPEAKER_00: okay, just start speaking, just bubbling words, and slowly that'll come out, right?
37:02
SPEAKER_00: And as a kid, you do what you're told, right?
37:06
SPEAKER_00: And I realized as I grew older,
37:08
SPEAKER_00: as somebody who likes to think and question things, I knew that was like, not right.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: That's definitely not tongues, right?
37:17
SPEAKER_00: That wasn't the spirit of moving, but just somebody teaching you how to make sounds.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: And then I start to grow a resentment from that, right?
37:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking, oh, it's no way.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Until one day,
37:36
SPEAKER_00: I felt, you know, I was filled by, you know, the spirit, I believe.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't seeking it.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: It was just a time of worship, right?
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And I was overwhelmed by the Spirit of God.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: And there were people around me that
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Didn't speak in tongues, they were speaking in tongues.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: They were,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:00
SPEAKER_00: experienced the gift of the Spirit in their own way,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: being slayed by the Spirit or being filled by the Spirit.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, you might have different words to describe that.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't seeking it, but I felt it.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: So I knew it was God, but I didn't know how to explain it.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: But when I came to Wesleyan theology,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: that gave me tools to understand that, the beauty was like, your experience...
38:21
SPEAKER_00: It's grounded in Scripture.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: So if your experience or your experience it doesn't align with Scripture,
38:27
SPEAKER_00: then you can discard it.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: You can just say, hey, it's not.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: And if your tradition doesn't align with Scripture, then you can discard it, right?
38:34
SPEAKER_00: If your reason is grounded in Scripture.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's not just experience, right?
38:40
SPEAKER_00: If you just do experience by itself, sure, you can go anywhere with that.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: And people do have all kinds of experiences, right?
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: But in that framework helps you to be grounded and follow the spirit by
38:53
SPEAKER_00: the same time being grounded in scripture.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I think is valuable.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: But I can say thanks for clarifying that because it can be confusing for many.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I once helped somebody in there.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: I have often been just kind of a reader for people's ordination paperwork.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: And I knew somebody who was,
39:10
SPEAKER_01: he was told to answer the question of how he was going to use the quadrilateral
39:14
SPEAKER_01: in his ministry.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: And his answer was essentially not in quite these words,
39:16
SPEAKER_01: but the tone was, I won't because it's stupid and I hate it.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: And I said, okay, let's have a conversation that maybe that's not your best approach.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about it.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: We'll have a good conversation about What the quadrilateral was.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: And I said,
39:28
SPEAKER_01: I think that all of your problems with it are real problems that are usually rooting
39:34
SPEAKER_01: from somebody doing it badly.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about how it could be used well.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of an ongoing thing.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people, I think, in the Global Methodist Church have a bad taste in their mouth.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: But it's not so much because of Wesley.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: It's not all from Wesley.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: It's not really from the Wesley quadrilateral understood well.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: It's when it's been distorted over the years, which is unfortunate.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: So one of the questions I've been asking folks,
39:56
SPEAKER_01: especially because people have all kinds of backgrounds, right?
39:59
SPEAKER_01: And you yourself have already talked about being part of a variety of different churches.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: So we're not picking on any one church here.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: But I've been asking everybody if they can share what they see as being like a sickness.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of keep saying this.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I shouldn't ever stop explaining what I mean by that,
40:16
SPEAKER_01: just to make sure we're always centered on what that means.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Because if somebody is sick, then the solution is not shame and condemnation.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: The solution is diabolism.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: Diagnosis and treatment, whether it's medicine or therapy or something like that.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: So it'd be clear when I said,
40:29
SPEAKER_01: so yes, I'm asking, I'm asking everybody here to name a problem in the church.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: But my hope is to say,
40:35
SPEAKER_01: what is the problem that the more we can talk about it and think about it
40:39
SPEAKER_01: and be aware of it,
40:40
SPEAKER_01: the more likely we are to be able to give it to God and let God bring healing in
40:43
SPEAKER_01: the midst of it.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: So my question is,
40:45
SPEAKER_01: have you in your experience in all over the place,
40:48
SPEAKER_01: all over the world,
40:49
SPEAKER_01: have you seen any kind of sickness that has infected the church that needs healing?
40:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things that affects the church,
41:07
SPEAKER_00: and I think in the West quite a bit as well,
41:13
SPEAKER_00: it is, I mean, it has many names, maybe nominal Christianity, lukewarm Christianity.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: There's a study that you might be familiar with about That they came out with,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: they really interviewed teenagers and
41:30
SPEAKER_00: young adults and this idea of a therapeutic,
41:34
SPEAKER_00: moralistic deism, right?
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Which basically means, like,
41:39
SPEAKER_00: my Christianity is to serve me when I need it and to be a good person and
41:43
SPEAKER_00: to be happy, right?
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Which is not what the gospel is, right?
41:48
SPEAKER_00: If you really, truly dive into the gospel, that is not that.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting, this, because...
41:56
SPEAKER_00: I think throughout the 20th century,
41:59
SPEAKER_00: the Methodist church has been guilty of becoming lukewarm and kind of quenching
42:06
SPEAKER_00: that fire that initially started it.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
42:10
SPEAKER_00: when I started studying really the beginnings of Methodism,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:13
SPEAKER_00: where like,
42:15
SPEAKER_00: The Methodists from back at the time, you know, they were on fire for God.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: They saw healings happen.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: You know,
42:22
SPEAKER_00: they were deemed by the Anglican Church, right,
42:24
SPEAKER_00: a little bit of like weird people because,
42:26
SPEAKER_00: you know, they were like, what are you doing, right?
42:30
SPEAKER_00: You know,
42:30
SPEAKER_00: and there were towns that were closing down their bars
42:33
SPEAKER_00: because all these people were becoming Christians.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: Nobody was going to the bars and revival was coming.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: And when you read all of that, it's like, what happened?
42:41
SPEAKER_00: I was talking to a professor of mine.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: He teaches...
42:45
SPEAKER_00: A lot of history.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: I was asking what happened with the Methodist church.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: That is not the church that I've seen.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: He had an interesting response.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: He said,
42:59
SPEAKER_00: once people start maybe gaining more popularity in society,
43:06
SPEAKER_00: Methodists started getting more influence in society
43:09
SPEAKER_00: because initially Methodists were the ones that were lower in society.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: They were, you know, just working class, right?
43:17
SPEAKER_00: But because everybody wanted to hire Methodists,
43:19
SPEAKER_00: they had integrity, they had good morals, right?
43:22
SPEAKER_00: They were hard workers.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: They started to climb up in society and, you know, be more influencers.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: A lot of pastors started to preach or being afraid to preach challenging messages
43:36
SPEAKER_00: because what if one of those congregants that gave a lot
43:40
SPEAKER_00: of money would get offended?
43:43
SPEAKER_00: What if that happened?
43:44
SPEAKER_00: And slowly the Methodist church started to become more about doing nice things than
43:52
SPEAKER_00: to be on fire for God and for what he wanted the church to be.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is basically what Revelation speaks about in chapter 3, verse 14, right?
44:09
SPEAKER_00: The church letter to Laodicea,
44:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: I have this against you, that you are neither cold or hot, you are lukewarm, right?
44:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is something that it is hard because we are a Christian nation, in quotes.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: And that means that Nowadays,
44:28
SPEAKER_00: it's a little bit less,
44:29
SPEAKER_00: but it used to be 80% of people in America called themselves Christians.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: Only about a small percentage of those people actually followed biblical Christianity.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus,
44:42
SPEAKER_00: I believe Jesus,
44:43
SPEAKER_00: I know Jesus didn't come to get believers, meaning people that claim believe in him.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: He came...
44:52
SPEAKER_00: To call followers, right?
44:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's where the difference.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: And a follower is, you know, like Luke says, you know, pick up your cross and follow me.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is something that the church is lacking now
45:09
SPEAKER_00: because we don't realize that faith is not about...
45:14
SPEAKER_00: Feeling good, doing good things.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: It's about really surrender everything to the king of kings, which is Jesus.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: And following a king means, okay,
45:23
SPEAKER_00: I do as you say,
45:25
SPEAKER_00: but with the difference that this king is good and this king is loving.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: So when we surrender everything to him,
45:32
SPEAKER_00: which is hard,
45:32
SPEAKER_00: if we're honest,
45:34
SPEAKER_00: what we receive is an adoption into his family and being part of what God is doing
45:41
SPEAKER_00: in the world.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: I think that's worth it.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: Everything.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: Everything.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's tough.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, life is busy.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: So, Sidena's providing things that the church is to provide, right?
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Community, you know, missions.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to do missions, in a way, do good things and, you know, service projects.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: You don't need a church anymore.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Schools do that.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Non-profits do that.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, other religions do that.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: If that was your Christianity, then yeah, you don't need it.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: But true Christianity calls you to surrender.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: So I think that would be maybe the sickness that is affecting
46:24
SPEAKER_01: the church.
46:25
SPEAKER_01: Reading through the history of American Methodism is fascinating because on
46:28
SPEAKER_01: the one hand, it is a story of...
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Just a multitude of extraordinarily faithful people.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: And yet you also have what you described as a sickness kind of woven right through it.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: When I have, I've taught on...
46:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Kind of,
47:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:09
SPEAKER_01: state religion is you get caught up in all the things that the state gets caught up
47:14
SPEAKER_01: in.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: And so we had, I know,
47:16
SPEAKER_01: for example, we had,
47:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:17
SPEAKER_01: we had Methodist bishops in the north and the south on either side of the Civil War,
47:21
SPEAKER_01: exemplifying the very worst of what was going on there.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: So it's a, it's a, it's a,
47:26
SPEAKER_01: It's a strange experience to read American Methodist history because on
47:29
SPEAKER_01: the one hand,
47:29
SPEAKER_01: there are these incredible tales of commitment and faithfulness and discipleship,
47:35
SPEAKER_01: but there's also these just gut-wrenching tales of compromise.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's a very interesting thing,
47:41
SPEAKER_01: and I know that part of what we're hoping to do in
47:43
SPEAKER_01: the Globe Methodist Church is not just go back to some previous era like
47:49
SPEAKER_01: when our grandparents were growing up,
47:50
SPEAKER_01: but to go back to the root where that revival really started and transformed a lot
47:54
SPEAKER_01: of the world.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: I really, it's not really even going back to, you know, the beginning of Methodism.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: It's going back to biblical, you know, Christianity and biblical church acts, right?
48:08
SPEAKER_00: That is what, you know, the church enacts, right?
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Meeting,
48:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:15
SPEAKER_00: not giving up meeting together in temple courts and then breaking bread
48:19
SPEAKER_00: and just having that communal church.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: Discipleship where they supported each other and they lived life together.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Also, having a theology of suffering is important.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Because, I mean, we all want to escape suffering because that's a big no, right?
48:38
SPEAKER_00: But having a theology of suffering is important because we are called to suffer as Christians.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: And I know that's not popular, but it's true.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: If Jesus, our Savior, suffered and He's calling us to follow Him, there's going to be suffering.
48:51
SPEAKER_00: But...
48:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, Jesus already overcame the world.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's the hope we have that we'll never lose it.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to think about ways in which people can be aware of.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: So I know that your wife is one of the people who runs the Upper Midwest Missions Facebook page.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: So if you are not already following that page,
49:14
SPEAKER_01: make sure you're doing that because there's information.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: And I know that part of the plan is to eventually share more and more stories
49:22
SPEAKER_01: about what various churches across the conference are doing.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: So I make sure I want to, I was thinking about that.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: So I make sure I say that out loud.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: One of the things I'm curious to hear if you have any thoughts on,
49:30
SPEAKER_01: I have not prepared you to answer this question at all.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I find fascinating is I've spent the last 12 years of ministry
49:39
SPEAKER_01: and you could argue, you know, longer than that in, Distinctly rural contexts.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: And you are in about as unrural of a context as we have in our annual conference.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: So there's a handful of kind of urban centers where, so we,
49:55
SPEAKER_01: the Global Methodist Church,
49:56
SPEAKER_01: in a lot of ways across annual conference is relatively weak in the urban areas
50:01
SPEAKER_01: and is relatively strong in rural areas.
50:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious about what,
50:05
SPEAKER_01: is there anything that you find distinctive about being in a more urban environment
50:09
SPEAKER_01: That is either good or challenging or anything.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Have you thought at all about the fact that you're in an urban context in
50:16
SPEAKER_01: a rural annual conference?
50:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I have thought about it.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
50:25
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, to be honest, my experience has been in the...
50:32
SPEAKER_00: In a city context, always in ministry.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: No matter where on ministry,
50:36
SPEAKER_00: whether in missions or not, and most of the time we would go to cities, right?
50:41
SPEAKER_00: And do that.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: And I grew up in a fairly big city as well, very dense city.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: But actually, not that long ago, we visited a small church, a small global message church.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, where's Wachir?
50:59
SPEAKER_00: That's a funny name.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: It is a funny name.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: But we went to that.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: It is a funny name.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Went to that church, not knowing what to say.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: We're sharing about,
51:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:07
SPEAKER_00: camp and maybe calling because there were several young people in that church
51:12
SPEAKER_00: and share about camp and what, you know, God could do in their lives through camp.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: And I was really moved by.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: By the amount of families and young people and just life that church had.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: Little church in the middle of a town that I wouldn't tell you is vibrant, right?
51:34
SPEAKER_00: But that church was for sure.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: So I believe it's not really so much where you are located or all the resources you have.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: I think if you are joining God's work,
51:47
SPEAKER_01: Your work will flourish.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not about like, oh God, look here.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: You forgot about this idea.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: So why don't you bless my...
51:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like, are we seeking God's will and yielding our will to God's will?
52:01
SPEAKER_00: And when we do that, I mean,
52:03
SPEAKER_00: the pastor of that church was telling me that there are people driving
52:06
SPEAKER_00: from all different towns
52:08
SPEAKER_00: to just come to that Global Methodist Church.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: So I believe that no matter what the size of the church,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: if God is moving,
52:15
SPEAKER_00: God will,
52:16
SPEAKER_00: you know, bring people and it's That place is going to be a beacon of light.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: And the same if you're in a big city church, right?
52:24
SPEAKER_00: Because in big cities, you also have dying churches.
52:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: And something I realized,
52:29
SPEAKER_00: a lot of the dying churches,
52:31
SPEAKER_00: it became more about the tradition or the policing culture and knowing about Christ
52:41
SPEAKER_00: and what God is doing in that community, right?
52:44
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times I realize it is that.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: So...
52:48
SPEAKER_00: And of course, being faithful and seeking with prayer and with humbleness for God to move.
52:57
SPEAKER_01: So is there anything else that's burning on your heart that you want to share around
53:01
SPEAKER_01: the annual conference?
53:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think we need to.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually going to be going to the annual,
53:17
SPEAKER_00: not the annual conference, the general conference in South Africa.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm very excited to see, you know, what God is also doing in the rest of the world, right?
53:26
SPEAKER_00: Because we hear a story of what God has done in the past within the Global Methodist Church.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: I think we're positioned in a unique time in But also, we're a unique church in society.
53:41
SPEAKER_00: Not a lot of people know about the Global Methodist Church.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: We're still new.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: But I think we provide a healthy, holistic approach to Christianity.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: That's spirit-filled,
53:53
SPEAKER_00: which is important, which is Christ-centered, and which is biblical, right?
53:58
SPEAKER_00: And if we keep those, the main things, I think...
54:02
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people seeking for our type of churches.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think if we remain not worried about politics,
54:13
SPEAKER_00: not worried about what the other side is doing,
54:16
SPEAKER_00: but worry what God is doing in our midst,
54:19
SPEAKER_00: and not being afraid to be bold for the gospel,
54:21
SPEAKER_00: I think God is going to do something great again within our churches.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: And with young people too.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: I think we need to invest in young people because they are the president of the church.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: If you study revival, you'll see a lot of revivals came out from the youth, right?
54:43
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times God used young people to really establish revival.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's what I'm very excited about.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think those are...
54:56
SPEAKER_00: My last thoughts I have, unless you have any other questions.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: No, no.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: And then my last request from you is, would you close us out in prayer?
55:06
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Travis.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate this time and sharing with you.
55:12
SPEAKER_01: Let's pray.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: God, I want to thank you for your goodness.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: Thank you because you love us more than we can imagine.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: And we're not perfect.
55:20
SPEAKER_00: We don't have a perfect approach to church, to discipleship, to anything.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: But humbly, we want to say, here we are, God, send me.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: So I want to pray that.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: You're going to keep sending us,
55:33
SPEAKER_00: whether we are in lay ministry,
55:36
SPEAKER_00: in ordained ministry, or in the process of being ordained.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: I want to pray that you're going to use this.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, we're going to claim allegiance, not to a denomination or to a specific church.
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SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks everybody for joining.
56:15
SPEAKER_01: This has been What You Have Seen and Heard with my guest is Gonzo Santajan.
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SPEAKER_01: I go 100% on recommendations.
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SPEAKER_01: So if you know somebody who's got a good story or
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SPEAKER_01: if you've got some place tucked away somewhere in our annual conference
56:27
SPEAKER_01: where God's doing some pretty exciting stuff and more people should know about it,
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SPEAKER_01: send me an email at pastortravisatmarcusgrace.com and I will try to reach out
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SPEAKER_01: to them.
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SPEAKER_01: So thanks for coming and watch this and we'll see you next time.