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Life Lessons On Memory & Popcorn Brain With A Neuroscientist · Two Broke Chicks

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Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gadigal Land Always was, always
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Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land.
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Speaker 2: Hey Jix, I'm sal and it feels so weird just
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Speaker 2: ending it there. But this is two broad Chicks, the
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Speaker 2: show that shares life lessons and tips to help make
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Speaker 2: you rich in life. And today Al's not with me
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Speaker 2: because she's had to jet off to Melbourne, so she
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Speaker 2: will be very sorely missed. But I'm not alone because
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Speaker 2: I am joined by the absolutely incredible doctor Leela Landowski,
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Speaker 2: Award winning neuroscientists, lecturer at the University of Tasmania and
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Speaker 2: Vice President of Science and Technology Australia.
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Speaker 3: Welcome, Thank you.
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Speaker 2: I am so excited to have you on the pod
0:45
Speaker 2: today because we're talking all things productivity, memory, popcorn, brain,
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Speaker 2: So I feel like I've got a lot of questions
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Speaker 2: for you that I'm like, yeah, look, the chicks are
0:56
Speaker 2: going to get a lot from this, but so am I.
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Speaker 2: So I'm excited to dive me in.
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Speaker 3: It sounds fabulous. I can't wait to talk about my
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Speaker 3: favorite body parts.
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Speaker 2: So it's good, the best one and honestly needs more attention.
1:07
Speaker 2: But before we get into the juicy questions, what's your
1:10
Speaker 2: life lesson?
1:10
Speaker 3: Of the week. Look, I think my life lesson of
1:14
Speaker 3: the week is probably like a life lesson of all
1:17
Speaker 3: time for me, and I've learned that the richness of
1:19
Speaker 3: life for me comes from the people in it, not
1:22
Speaker 3: the stuff I have, not not anything else that's material,
1:25
Speaker 3: But it's actually the connections with people, making new friends,
1:28
Speaker 3: and having those really great people in your life.
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Speaker 2: Honestly, I think you kind of get that understanding more
1:35
Speaker 2: and more as you grow up, because I know, for
1:37
Speaker 2: me personally, in my early twenties, I was so and
1:40
Speaker 2: I guess I still am, but you know, very career
1:42
Speaker 2: oriented and really thought about that has been the biggest
1:45
Speaker 2: marker of having a successful life. And then the more
1:48
Speaker 2: amazing things I've experienced, which are all so great and
1:52
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for. It is like the relationships and
1:55
Speaker 2: friendships that you have at the end of the day
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Speaker 2: that me and the most right.
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Speaker 3: Truly absolutely and you want to share them with people
2:00
Speaker 3: who have the same values, who actually want the best
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Speaker 3: for you. I think young when we're younger, we just
2:07
Speaker 3: we're friends with whoever's at school with. We don't necessarily
2:11
Speaker 3: have things in common with them, And I think as
2:12
Speaker 3: we get older as well, we meet people who are
2:16
Speaker 3: on the same path of life or have those things
2:18
Speaker 3: in common with us, And I think you can form
2:20
Speaker 3: some really robust friendships because you have those things in.
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Speaker 2: Common exactly, instead of relationships by proximity, it's based on.
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Speaker 3: Values, yes, exactly.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. What a beautiful way to start
2:31
Speaker 2: the episode. My life lesson is something that I saw
2:34
Speaker 2: when I was scrolling this week that I actually thought
2:37
Speaker 2: was kind of relevant to today's topic, and it's that
2:40
Speaker 2: our skin is the largest sensory organ on our body,
2:44
Speaker 2: which makes sense and seems super obvious, right, But then
2:47
Speaker 2: I realize that's why it's so important to prioritize materials
2:52
Speaker 2: that make you feel good and make you feel comfortable,
2:55
Speaker 2: like whether that is your bedding or your clothes, and
2:58
Speaker 2: being really conscious of that and how that has like
3:01
Speaker 2: a huge impact on your mental health and what's going on.
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Speaker 2: Whereas I never really would have thought about that, or
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Speaker 2: you know, I guess gave that the attention that it needs.
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Speaker 2: That comfort truly is key.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the interesting thing about our skin
3:17
Speaker 3: is it's kind of like, as far as our body
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Speaker 3: is concerned, it's like a low priority thing. So if
3:24
Speaker 3: you're stressed it's going to take blood flow away from
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Speaker 3: the skin, and you're more likely to have pimples or
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Speaker 3: dry skin, or your hair might fall out or go gray.
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Speaker 3: So it's also like, yeah, it's really influenced by what's
3:38
Speaker 3: happening in our lives. Holy shit.
3:41
Speaker 2: See that's the thing I feel like every time I
3:45
Speaker 2: like go to the doctor about something, they're like, it's
3:46
Speaker 2: stress like care. But we'll get into that more in
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Speaker 2: this episode. But it's wild that it really is.
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Speaker 3: It's all connected, yeah truly. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's get into the juicy stuff of the
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Speaker 2: episode before we really dive in. Can you tell us
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Speaker 2: a little bit about yourself and how you got into neuroscience.
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Speaker 3: I never wanted to be a neuroscientist. I never planned
4:11
Speaker 3: to be a neuroscientist. I always wanted to work in
4:15
Speaker 3: developing therapies for things. So when I was at a
4:18
Speaker 3: grades for school camp, I caught my first fish and
4:22
Speaker 3: I remember holding it and it was disgusting. It was
4:24
Speaker 3: covered in slime and this slime was kind of like
4:27
Speaker 3: forming webbing between my fingers, and I just yeah, I'd
4:30
Speaker 3: heard of things like shark lever oil or like fish
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Speaker 3: extracts that could be helpful for people, and I remember
4:36
Speaker 3: holding it thinking, Oh, wouldn't it be cool if one day,
4:38
Speaker 3: when I grow up, I could find a fish extract
4:41
Speaker 3: that could help people. And that was really my naive
4:44
Speaker 3: idea that I took all the way through to Union
4:46
Speaker 3: because I didn't have any mentors. I didn't have anyone
4:47
Speaker 3: who could kind of guide me in life. So I
4:50
Speaker 3: did a ultimately did a degree in medical research. And
4:55
Speaker 3: when I was doing that degree, I was sitting in
4:58
Speaker 3: a neuroscience lecture and the neuroscientist that was giving that
5:02
Speaker 3: lecture was talking about some of his work and I
5:04
Speaker 3: remember looking at it thinking I maybe have a different
5:07
Speaker 3: way to interpret what he's talking about, and maybe I
5:10
Speaker 3: wanted to really test this idea that I'd had, And
5:12
Speaker 3: I ended up testing that I did doing a doctorate
5:15
Speaker 3: in neuroscience and then making that my career. And the
5:18
Speaker 3: cool thing is is that through that work, I discovered
5:21
Speaker 3: a natural protein that could regenerate nerves in the skin,
5:24
Speaker 3: and that protein can be found in fish. So it's
5:27
Speaker 3: almost like life came full circle.
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, the fish oil prophecy came true. I
5:33
Speaker 2: love how that's the mind blowing, life altering realizations you
5:39
Speaker 2: were having when you were in here.
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Speaker 3: For it's one of those things that like, unless you've
5:42
Speaker 3: been exposed to something, you don't know that you might
5:45
Speaker 3: want to do it as a career. So we're totally
5:47
Speaker 3: influenced by what we see on TV. And yeah, pretty
5:49
Speaker 3: spit is awesome, Like who wouldn't want to be her?
5:52
Speaker 2: True? So so true. But I think it's really interesting because,
5:56
Speaker 2: like we were saying, all of these things are connected,
5:58
Speaker 2: like when we were talking about the relationship between your
6:01
Speaker 2: brain and your body and your mental health and how
6:04
Speaker 2: a lot of these things that we think are different
6:06
Speaker 2: parts of our body and they have their own functions,
6:08
Speaker 2: which they do, but they truly are all very, very related.
6:12
Speaker 2: And in you know, today's society, we're so productivity and
6:16
Speaker 2: output focused. But has our constant need and chase for
6:20
Speaker 2: productivity made us less productive?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, because I mean, our brain can only do
6:27
Speaker 3: so much, and we're constantly pushing it and pushing it
6:30
Speaker 3: and trying to do more and more with what we've
6:33
Speaker 3: got right, And one of the big things that happens
6:36
Speaker 3: is we're constantly context switching, so we're doing one thing
6:38
Speaker 3: and then we're doing the next thing, And I mean
6:40
Speaker 3: just think of it like this. If you're let's say
6:43
Speaker 3: you're in a kitchen making a meal, and then every
6:46
Speaker 3: five minutes so you have to go to another kitchen
6:48
Speaker 3: to start making another meal. You never finished the first one,
6:50
Speaker 3: and then you go to the next one. You've got
6:52
Speaker 3: to figure out what this new recipe is and you've
6:54
Speaker 3: got to you know, it takes time, and that's basically
6:56
Speaker 3: kind of what the brain is doing each time we context,
6:58
Speaker 3: which we've got to take time time to refill what
7:02
Speaker 3: we call our working memory with whatever it is that
7:04
Speaker 3: we're doing. And like it just it basically costs the brain,
7:08
Speaker 3: so it takes a lot of energy and it's just
7:10
Speaker 3: really inefficient. So we're never multitasking. What we're doing is
7:14
Speaker 3: really task switching, and it's just really inefficient for the brain.
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Speaker 2: Wow, that's so interesting because typically we would have seen
7:23
Speaker 2: like having a skill to multitask is like a badge
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Speaker 2: of honor, and that women are especially expected to multitask
7:31
Speaker 2: and juggle multiple things at once. And it's like, yeah,
7:34
Speaker 2: that's probably good to be able to do to a point,
7:36
Speaker 2: but a lot of the time it's to our detriment.
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Speaker 3: Right, And look, honestly, we never really had to multitask
7:42
Speaker 3: as much as we did today. Like, yeah, back in
7:45
Speaker 3: the day, you'd have a village that would bring up
7:47
Speaker 3: a family, you know, you wouldn't just be trying to
7:49
Speaker 3: do everything and trying to juggle everything. And I think
7:52
Speaker 3: this not just the emotional load, but the need to
7:56
Speaker 3: get kids to an appointment or worry about it, you know,
7:59
Speaker 3: worry about sports or all of these different things. We're
8:02
Speaker 3: worrying about, navigating traffic, all of these things take a
8:05
Speaker 3: lot of mental load, and that has consequences. You know,
8:09
Speaker 3: like we've gone so far away from the way we
8:13
Speaker 3: as social beings were meant to live. You know, we're
8:16
Speaker 3: really we've forced ourselves into this nuclear family, and we
8:19
Speaker 3: put all this pressure on ourselves and you know, maybe
8:22
Speaker 3: our significant other to get things done. But we've actually never,
8:25
Speaker 3: really in human history, had to do that until recently.
8:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like so many of the things that occupy our
8:31
Speaker 2: brain space and sources of stress are things that probably
8:34
Speaker 2: didn't even exist fifty one hundred and thousands of years ago,
8:39
Speaker 2: right exactly.
8:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, now we have to worry about getting
8:43
Speaker 3: stuck in traffic or you know, is there going to
8:45
Speaker 3: be a breakdown on the road or all of these
8:48
Speaker 3: things that you know are part of our life now
8:50
Speaker 3: but never used to be part of our lives. And
8:53
Speaker 3: being certain places at a certain time, you know, before
8:56
Speaker 3: you just do things as they arise and go with
8:59
Speaker 3: the flow, you'd have that kind of we call it
9:02
Speaker 3: time affluence. So when you feel like you've got control
9:04
Speaker 3: of your time, then you feel happier and you're less stressed.
9:08
Speaker 3: But in today's society, where you're running from one thing
9:10
Speaker 3: to the next and you don't feel like you have
9:12
Speaker 3: any control over things, that's a stressor and it's not
9:15
Speaker 3: good for us.
9:34
Speaker 2: You did a really interesting TED talk that I wanted
9:37
Speaker 2: to tap into a little bit, and you spoke about
9:40
Speaker 2: hacks for learning faster. So what are six hacks to
9:44
Speaker 2: learn faster?
9:45
Speaker 3: They sound really logical, but when I explain it will
9:48
Speaker 3: make more sense. So attention, alertness, sleep, repetition, breaks, and mistakes.
9:54
Speaker 3: So in order to learn something, you need to be
9:56
Speaker 3: paying attention to it right. You can't be distracted. You've
9:58
Speaker 3: got to give it your attention. Then you'll you've got
10:01
Speaker 3: to be alert. You know, if you're tired and sleepy,
10:03
Speaker 3: then it's going to be hard to pay attention. You
10:06
Speaker 3: need to keep repeating the thing that you're doing, because
10:09
Speaker 3: basically the brain doesn't want to change, and in order
10:14
Speaker 3: for you to learn, your brain is physically changing. It's
10:16
Speaker 3: making these brand new little connections called signapses between neurons
10:20
Speaker 3: when you're learning right, and the brain isn't going to
10:23
Speaker 3: want to put all that energy into making these new
10:25
Speaker 3: connections if it's something that you've only done once. And
10:28
Speaker 3: so when you're repeating something, it's basically flagging to your
10:32
Speaker 3: brain and saying, hey, this is important because it keeps
10:35
Speaker 3: coming up over and over again. So let's actually physically
10:38
Speaker 3: change and make that process easier and more efficient. So
10:41
Speaker 3: repetition is really critical when it comes to learning. Sleep
10:45
Speaker 3: is important too, So you know, we used to think
10:48
Speaker 3: that sleep was a bit of a waste of time,
10:49
Speaker 3: you know, spending a third of our lives in suspended animation,
10:53
Speaker 3: just like chilling.
10:54
Speaker 2: But that's how I want to Okay, what's up that,
10:58
Speaker 2: Let's bring that percentage up.
10:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it's like it's like actually critical for learning.
11:03
Speaker 3: So when we're doing things throughout the course of the day,
11:05
Speaker 3: we're putting things into a short term memory storage. So
11:08
Speaker 3: part of our brain, called the hippo campus is really
11:11
Speaker 3: just keeping track of what we're doing and what's sort
11:13
Speaker 3: of important. So if I was to ask you what
11:17
Speaker 3: you were doing this morning or what you had for breakfast,
11:19
Speaker 3: you're using your hippo campus to recall that information. And
11:22
Speaker 3: when we go to sleep, basically all of those important
11:25
Speaker 3: things throughout the course of the day get flitted off
11:27
Speaker 3: into other parts of our long term memory storage. So
11:31
Speaker 3: if you don't sleep, the short term stuff doesn't get
11:34
Speaker 3: converted into long term memory. So you know, that's why
11:38
Speaker 3: it's so important to sleep. You have to think of
11:39
Speaker 3: sleep almost as is really the time when your brain
11:43
Speaker 3: is changing and actually doing the consolidation the actual learning.
11:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's doing its file story.
11:48
Speaker 3: Yeah that time. Yeah, we often feel bad when we
11:52
Speaker 3: make a mistake, and we kind of feel a bit
11:55
Speaker 3: anxious and it's not a nice feeling. Yeah, but really
11:59
Speaker 3: mistakes are really important when it comes to learning. So
12:02
Speaker 3: when we make a mistake and we feel a bit
12:04
Speaker 3: anxious and you know, we're feeling uncomfortable, what's actually happening
12:08
Speaker 3: is our brain is releasing all of these neurochemicals that
12:12
Speaker 3: are actually helping us to pay attention. That's where the
12:14
Speaker 3: agitation comes from. It's actually creating these neurochemicals to make
12:18
Speaker 3: us focus on the thing that we just did wrong.
12:21
Speaker 3: And I guess the next part of that is it's
12:23
Speaker 3: also opening up this little window of neuroplasticity. So whatever
12:26
Speaker 3: we do next, the brain's much more likely to be
12:28
Speaker 3: a bit of a sponge and take up. So we
12:31
Speaker 3: make a mistake, we feel a bit anxious, but it's
12:33
Speaker 3: our brain's way of preparing us to pay attention. And
12:36
Speaker 3: then we do it again and hopefully get it right.
12:39
Speaker 3: And when we get it right, our brain releases other
12:42
Speaker 3: chemicals like dopamine, and it makes that memory stick into place.
12:46
Speaker 3: So when you're trying to learn something, don't just wait
12:50
Speaker 3: until you're ready to test your knowledge. Just keep testing
12:54
Speaker 3: yourself as you go. Like if you're trying to play
12:56
Speaker 3: a sport, get it wrong, you know, make it difficult.
13:00
Speaker 3: Let's say you're trying to play basketball, take a weird
13:03
Speaker 3: shot at a weird angle and test yourself. Allow yourself
13:06
Speaker 3: to make that mistake because that way, yes, you might
13:10
Speaker 3: get it wrong at first, but also you're making your
13:12
Speaker 3: brain remember how to do it right a lot better
13:14
Speaker 3: and it becomes a lot more efficient. Let's say you're
13:17
Speaker 3: trying to learn a speech or something. Don't wait until
13:21
Speaker 3: you think you've memorized it all to actually say it
13:23
Speaker 3: all out loud. Just actually say it when you don't
13:26
Speaker 3: know it. You'll actually have a much better chance of
13:29
Speaker 3: consolidating that information. I think we often tell ourselves that
13:34
Speaker 3: when we make a mistake, it's a bad thing, but
13:35
Speaker 3: actually it's the best thing we can do for learning.
13:38
Speaker 3: We really need to embrace that discomfort and that feeling
13:41
Speaker 3: and lean into it.
13:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have any hacks for anybody who, especially
13:46
Speaker 2: like in a corporate workplace kind of or any sort
13:49
Speaker 2: of workplace scenario, when you make a mistake, what should
13:53
Speaker 2: be the next step to really take advantage of some
13:55
Speaker 2: of those chemical reactions that are happening in your brain
13:59
Speaker 2: that because I know for me, if I make a mistake,
14:02
Speaker 2: that feeling kicks in. But sometimes that can be quite
14:05
Speaker 2: overwhelming and it feels more like debilitating rather than being like, Okay,
14:10
Speaker 2: how do I jump on and like take advantage of
14:12
Speaker 2: this and see it is a bit of a superpower?
14:14
Speaker 2: Like what would be the next best steps on using
14:18
Speaker 2: that as a learning opportunity instead of like spiraling and
14:21
Speaker 2: potentially being mean to yourself about the mistake. That you made.
14:24
Speaker 3: I think knowledge is power. I think knowing that that
14:26
Speaker 3: discomfort is actually your brain just helping you to be
14:29
Speaker 3: the best version of yourself, and leaning into that it
14:31
Speaker 3: makes it easier. If you don't know that, then of
14:33
Speaker 3: course you're just going to be like, this feels horrible,
14:35
Speaker 3: let's walk away from it and let's just not try again. Yeah,
14:38
Speaker 3: but if you know that actually it's just a good
14:41
Speaker 3: thing ultimately, then you can sort of lean into it
14:44
Speaker 3: a bit better.
14:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, all right, cool, So did we get through
14:47
Speaker 2: all six? We had alertnessleep breaks.
14:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
14:52
Speaker 3: Breaks. So, especially in you know, if you're twenty five
14:57
Speaker 3: or above, we know that if you take if you
15:01
Speaker 3: try and do something else as as soon as you've
15:03
Speaker 3: finished learning something, those brand new memories are really fragile,
15:07
Speaker 3: and they're really easy to get like overwritten in your brain,
15:11
Speaker 3: and so you really need to spend time taking a
15:15
Speaker 3: break and just letting yourself mull over whatever it is
15:17
Speaker 3: that you've done. So let's say you've just sat down
15:20
Speaker 3: to learn something and then you finished learning, and then
15:23
Speaker 3: you go and scroll on your phone. That's pretty much
15:25
Speaker 3: the worst thing you can do because you're using those
15:28
Speaker 3: you know, you're putting irrelevant information into your brain, and
15:31
Speaker 3: you have a much bigger chance of sort of overwriting
15:34
Speaker 3: those new memories, but actually taking a break and then
15:37
Speaker 3: just chilling out. And when you're in that space of
15:41
Speaker 3: just chilling out, you're actually replaying the things that you've
15:44
Speaker 3: just done. You're not aware of it necessarily, but you're
15:46
Speaker 3: actually thinking through it, you're actually processing it. And when
15:49
Speaker 3: you're processing it, it's actually another form of repetition, so
15:52
Speaker 3: you're just actually practicing it. So an example of this
15:56
Speaker 3: is they did a study in people who are learning
15:58
Speaker 3: how to play the piano, and when you take a break,
16:01
Speaker 3: like a twenty second break after learning that little sequence,
16:04
Speaker 3: your brain is replaying it afterwards, and you're just actually
16:08
Speaker 3: repeating that information in your mind, and it does that
16:11
Speaker 3: really really quickly. So it's a really useful thing to do.
16:16
Speaker 3: One thing I didn't mention when we're talking about alertness,
16:18
Speaker 3: So it's really important to be alert in order for
16:21
Speaker 3: you to learn. And one of the best things to
16:23
Speaker 3: do is actually just get a little bit of exercise,
16:25
Speaker 3: get your heart rate pumping. So let's say you've got
16:27
Speaker 3: an important meeting that you need to or you're about
16:31
Speaker 3: to sit down to learn, go for a run, or
16:33
Speaker 3: run up and down the stairs, or do star jumps,
16:35
Speaker 3: do whatever it is to get those chemicals. These neurochemicals,
16:40
Speaker 3: they don't just affect your body, they affect your brain
16:42
Speaker 3: as well, and they help you feel more alert and
16:44
Speaker 3: pay attention to what you're about to do.
16:46
Speaker 2: Oh, I like that. Is it cardio especially? Is that
16:50
Speaker 2: the sort of exercise that people should be doing, or
16:52
Speaker 2: is there anything.
16:53
Speaker 3: Well, you really whatever it is to get your heart
16:55
Speaker 3: rate up? Okay, yeah, so you really want to get
16:57
Speaker 3: those things like adrenaline and more adrenaline released in order
17:01
Speaker 3: to make you feel, you know, a bit more peppy
17:04
Speaker 3: and help you pay attention. That's a really good hack.
17:08
Speaker 2: I like that because it's super achievable. And I think
17:12
Speaker 2: something else that I've seen just doing research and stuff
17:15
Speaker 2: for the show is I read an article by neuroscientists.
17:19
Speaker 2: I find it and I'll link it in the show notes.
17:21
Speaker 2: But she was saying that actually, when we take breaks
17:26
Speaker 2: is when our brain can be creative, and that boredom
17:30
Speaker 2: truly is what fuels creativity. And because we're constantly pacifying
17:35
Speaker 2: ourselves with media, whether that's scrolling on your phone or
17:39
Speaker 2: always having a podcast playing or always listening to music,
17:42
Speaker 2: or going into the shower and putting YouTube on, whatever
17:45
Speaker 2: it is. Like, we have that constant chase now and
17:49
Speaker 2: we don't ever let our brains be quiet exactly.
17:52
Speaker 3: We don't let ourselves be bored, and being bored is
17:56
Speaker 3: one of the greatest things we can do for creativity.
17:58
Speaker 3: So part of our brain we call the default mode network.
18:03
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what it's called, but it's basically where
18:05
Speaker 3: our brain starts wandering and we start thinking about ideas
18:09
Speaker 3: and connecting them in like weird and abstract ways. That's
18:12
Speaker 3: what we come up with our creative ideas. You know,
18:14
Speaker 3: the genius moments happens when you're bored, like when you're
18:18
Speaker 3: in the shower wherever it might be. And this is
18:21
Speaker 3: maybe a little bit of a kind of weird concept,
18:25
Speaker 3: but bear with me for a second. So in human history,
18:30
Speaker 3: the time where people weren't suddenly worrying about shelter and
18:35
Speaker 3: worrying about food and finally actually had time to be bored,
18:38
Speaker 3: that's when human civilization really blossomed. So the Bronze Age
18:43
Speaker 3: is a time where they got figured out to mix
18:46
Speaker 3: these metals together and develop bronze, and it allowed them
18:49
Speaker 3: to make these tools, like you know, like things to
18:53
Speaker 3: use for agriculture, to make buildings, all those sorts of things.
18:57
Speaker 3: So suddenly it was really easy to get lots of food,
19:00
Speaker 3: was suddenly great to make lots of shelter. All those
19:03
Speaker 3: things that used to be problems on a daily basis
19:06
Speaker 3: now no longer were there. So suddenly people had time
19:10
Speaker 3: to be bored. They had time to work on artisan crafts.
19:14
Speaker 3: That's where mathematics was developed, that's where language was developed.
19:17
Speaker 3: It all came from humans not being in a fair
19:21
Speaker 3: state anymore and actually being able to be bored and
19:23
Speaker 3: therefore be creative. So, really, boredom is where the root
19:28
Speaker 3: of human civilization came from. It's such an important thing,
19:32
Speaker 3: and we're always we don't let ourselves be bort It's
19:34
Speaker 3: almost like we can't sit down without just scrolling our phones.
19:39
Speaker 3: Were always looking for a way to fill the time.
19:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, Which is that like an anxiety response or is
19:46
Speaker 2: it like a habit loop that we've kind of just
19:49
Speaker 2: found ourselves in.
19:50
Speaker 3: Like why is that Probably a bit of both? Yeah,
19:53
Speaker 3: Because I mean social media it gives us what we want.
19:58
Speaker 3: It's acute, interesting cat fit. It's a funny bit of content.
20:03
Speaker 3: It's an interesting podcast, it's interesting, it's a great way
20:06
Speaker 3: to fill the time, and being bored can sometimes feel uncomfortable.
20:09
Speaker 3: So it's almost like we're self soothing ourselves. If you
20:12
Speaker 3: don't have to be bored, then why would you bother?
20:14
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, And a lot of these things impact memory,
20:18
Speaker 2: right because, like you said, if you're not getting enough sleep,
20:21
Speaker 2: or if we're constantly pacifying our souls as some of
20:24
Speaker 2: these things, we're not giving our brain the chance to
20:26
Speaker 2: do that busy work. It needs to file things away.
20:29
Speaker 2: But I wanted to ask you what about the concept
20:32
Speaker 2: of false memories, Like what's with that, because you know,
20:37
Speaker 2: sometimes you'll be like, no, I swear I sent that
20:39
Speaker 2: birthday message. I swear I did, and then you look
20:41
Speaker 2: and you're like, no I didn't.
20:42
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean at the end of the day, we
20:45
Speaker 3: sort of think of our we like to think of
20:47
Speaker 3: our memories being like CCTV footage, like it's a perfect
20:51
Speaker 3: recollection of things, but it's not. It's really a collection
20:55
Speaker 3: of memories that we then try and piece together when
20:59
Speaker 3: we trying to recall what might have happened at a
21:02
Speaker 3: certain thing. And that also means that it's really vulnerable
21:05
Speaker 3: to change as well. So the longer we spend after
21:10
Speaker 3: an event has happened and we try and recall what
21:13
Speaker 3: happened at that event, then the more likely it is
21:16
Speaker 3: that those memories can be changed and can be influenced
21:19
Speaker 3: by things that we've done. So let's just say we
21:23
Speaker 3: went to a party a couple of weeks ago, and
21:25
Speaker 3: I have my version of what happened at that party,
21:28
Speaker 3: but you tell me that you remember that something else happened,
21:30
Speaker 3: and we have that conversation, then my brain might start
21:34
Speaker 3: to sort of piece that into the memory of what happened,
21:37
Speaker 3: even though I never was there, I never actually saw it.
21:39
Speaker 3: And we see that all the time. And that's sort
21:42
Speaker 3: of why we have this thing called a statute of
21:45
Speaker 3: limitations in the court process when someone has experienced something
21:49
Speaker 3: traumatic or whatever it might be, and they're trying you know,
21:54
Speaker 3: I guess because those memories aren't as trustworthy as time
21:59
Speaker 3: goes on, it's hard to use that as evidence.
22:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, our contexts and perceptions and other influencers can
22:07
Speaker 2: really impact our memory totally. Yeah, that's so interesting. I
22:11
Speaker 2: think that's very validating in a way because it happens
22:14
Speaker 2: more and more as you get older as well, So
22:17
Speaker 2: I think it can be a little bit unnerving, but
22:19
Speaker 2: it's good to know that it is, you know, sort
22:21
Speaker 2: of just a natural process. What about popcorn brain?
22:43
Speaker 3: Popcorn brain? Ah, so it's this, well, I guess it's
22:47
Speaker 3: a pop term that sort of mean describes how our
22:50
Speaker 3: brain sort of bounces about from one thing to the next.
22:52
Speaker 3: Our attention is constantly shifting and popping around. But really
22:56
Speaker 3: that's also kind of because of social media a lot.
22:59
Speaker 3: So if it think about it like this, so our
23:01
Speaker 3: brain is really good at learning from things that we
23:05
Speaker 3: do all the time. And if we're constantly using our
23:07
Speaker 3: phones and seeing one bit of information and then seeing
23:10
Speaker 3: a different kind of bit of information, we're constantly actually
23:13
Speaker 3: context switching. We're looking at one thing and looking at
23:16
Speaker 3: the next thing. So we're actually training our brain to
23:19
Speaker 3: have bad attention. We're training it to be able to
23:21
Speaker 3: move from one thing to the next, because that's what
23:24
Speaker 3: you know, that's what we're doing. And so the more
23:26
Speaker 3: you do that, the easier it becomes. And so our
23:29
Speaker 3: brain will just naturally move from one thing to the next.
23:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
23:32
Speaker 2: Right, And because in some of the things that I've
23:35
Speaker 2: read around popcorn brain a lot of people talk about
23:38
Speaker 2: it in relation to women, and that a lot of
23:40
Speaker 2: women experiencing Why is.
23:41
Speaker 3: That in particular, Well, I guess the more you have
23:45
Speaker 3: other stresses in life, or the more burdens you might
23:48
Speaker 3: have in other places, the more you're likely to have
23:51
Speaker 3: a fragmented attention span. So let's say you've got a
23:54
Speaker 3: huge emotional load trying to figure out things in the
23:56
Speaker 3: house and juggling family or whatever it might be, or
24:01
Speaker 3: you know, we're hustling, we're doing lots of different jobs.
24:03
Speaker 3: Then you're already a bit stressed, right, and so that
24:08
Speaker 3: burden of stress makes a lot harder to pay attention
24:11
Speaker 3: to things. It actually fragments our ability to pay attention.
24:15
Speaker 3: So when you're really stressed in life, it affects the brain.
24:19
Speaker 3: And it's not just a small effect. It's actually quite significant.
24:23
Speaker 3: So let's say you're worrying about paying the bills, and
24:28
Speaker 3: you're worrying about covering rent, and you're worrying about getting
24:33
Speaker 3: from A to B, and you're worrying about everything else
24:36
Speaker 3: at home, and you're worrying about your job. That is
24:39
Speaker 3: a chronic stress, and over time it changes our brain
24:41
Speaker 3: structure and the way we behave So one of the
24:44
Speaker 3: things it does is it makes your hippocampus, the brain's
24:47
Speaker 3: memory center, shrink, like brain cells actually die and so
24:51
Speaker 3: your memory gets worse.
24:53
Speaker 2: So stress is shrinking our brains.
24:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well actually makes one part of the brain bigger.
24:58
Speaker 3: It makes the emotion out of the brain bigger, which
25:02
Speaker 3: is why we get more emotional and more visceral and
25:05
Speaker 3: just a bit more reactive to things because it's I mean,
25:10
Speaker 3: that's it makes sense. Like if you're if you have
25:13
Speaker 3: if you've constantly got stress in your life, then the
25:15
Speaker 3: part of your brain that's involved with dealing with stress
25:18
Speaker 3: wants to get bigger so you can deal with the
25:20
Speaker 3: next stress that comes along.
25:21
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yeah, you've just blown my mind. I
25:25
Speaker 2: just had like a that was a real like one
25:27
Speaker 2: plus one equals too moment. Yeah.
25:29
Speaker 3: But it's also like we have to remind ourselves it's
25:31
Speaker 3: not that we've changed as a person. It's not that
25:33
Speaker 3: we've become more angry or aggressive. It's just that our
25:35
Speaker 3: brain is doing its best to try and cope with
25:37
Speaker 3: that situation. So it's not our fault. So we need
25:39
Speaker 3: to be kind to ourselves as well.
25:41
Speaker 2: Can you reverse some of those things?
25:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, you definitely can. So, I mean, I guess the
25:46
Speaker 3: rule of thumb is that the longer you've been stressed
25:49
Speaker 3: and the longer it's going to take to bounce back.
25:52
Speaker 3: But some of the great things to do to reduce
25:54
Speaker 3: the level of stress or to reduce the impact of
25:57
Speaker 3: stress are things like exercise. So exercise helps you make
26:01
Speaker 3: new brain cells. In the hippo camphus it makes it bigger.
26:04
Speaker 3: You can do things like mindfulness or meditation practices, which
26:07
Speaker 3: are really great as well. You can do breathing techniques.
26:10
Speaker 3: You might have heard the physiological sigh, So it's where
26:13
Speaker 3: you do this. It's really the best way to de
26:15
Speaker 3: escalate a panic attack. Actually, so do me through. You
26:19
Speaker 3: do two inhales through your nose and then a long exhale.
26:22
Speaker 3: So I'll show you in a second. But an example
26:25
Speaker 3: of it is imagine, you know when a kid might
26:29
Speaker 3: might be throwing a tantrum, or you're crying really really hard,
26:31
Speaker 3: and you just you go, that's actually the physiological side.
26:36
Speaker 3: We don't even know we're doing it. We're actually self
26:38
Speaker 3: soothing ourselves. Yeah, so it's two inhales through the nose.
26:43
Speaker 3: So the second inhale is just like fully filling up
26:45
Speaker 3: the lungs with air and then a long exhale, so
26:48
Speaker 3: you have to spend a longer time exhaling. It has
26:50
Speaker 3: to be in that order, otherwise it doesn't really work.
26:53
Speaker 3: So let's do it together. So two inhales and then
26:55
Speaker 3: a long exhale and then we'll do it again.
26:57
Speaker 2: Okay, so in heal through the nose, exhal through them out.
27:01
Speaker 2: Let's do it together.
27:01
Speaker 3: Takes ready r WHOA do you feel that?
27:21
Speaker 1: Yeah?
27:22
Speaker 3: I mean I do it three times, you'll watch your
27:25
Speaker 3: heart rate go down. I already feel way more chill.
27:27
Speaker 1: Like that's yeah, you.
27:29
Speaker 2: Better do that every part just halfway through.
27:32
Speaker 3: And if you do it for five minutes, then it
27:34
Speaker 3: has like really measurable effects on how your body is functioning.
27:37
Speaker 3: Just it's like the greatest hack almost, but it's not
27:40
Speaker 3: a hack. It's what our body does anyway. Yeah.
27:42
Speaker 2: But it's being conscious of that too, because if you're
27:45
Speaker 2: like you know, like you said, if you're crying or
27:47
Speaker 2: if you're spiraling a little bit and your body's doing
27:49
Speaker 2: it once, it's like sure, I'm sure that helps. But
27:53
Speaker 2: if you're conscious of it, and say, if you're in
27:55
Speaker 2: a really stressful work situation, you're like, I'm going to
27:58
Speaker 2: go for a walk quickly, to go to the bathroom
28:01
Speaker 2: quickly and spend a few minutes doing that. I'm sure
28:04
Speaker 2: being more conscious about it and actually giving that the
28:07
Speaker 2: time and the space to also do it properly, it
28:09
Speaker 2: can really have a solid impact.
28:11
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Another thing that's really great for stress as well
28:15
Speaker 3: is socializing, like actually just hanging out with people that
28:19
Speaker 3: you like people. It has to be people that you like.
28:21
Speaker 3: If you don't like it, it's not going to be
28:22
Speaker 3: not stressful. But when you're hanging out with people that
28:25
Speaker 3: you like that you like, it does a lot of things,
28:29
Speaker 3: but one of them is that you know you're talking
28:31
Speaker 3: about it, so you're I guess it takes the fear
28:33
Speaker 3: away from whatever situation you're in because you feel safe
28:35
Speaker 3: because you're in a safe space. And also you're releasing
28:38
Speaker 3: all of these neurochemicals, things like oxytocin. People call it
28:41
Speaker 3: the love hormone, but it's more than that. It's yes,
28:44
Speaker 3: it makes you feel closer to whoever you're talking to,
28:47
Speaker 3: but also it releases that reduces a level of our
28:50
Speaker 3: stress hormone cortisol, So it actually like part of the
28:53
Speaker 3: reason why we feel better is and feel less stressed
28:56
Speaker 3: is because those stress hormones go down. Yeah, And you know,
29:00
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, we know that the
29:02
Speaker 3: people who live happiest for the longest have the best
29:06
Speaker 3: social connections. And so really, you know, having great friendships
29:10
Speaker 3: or having just people that you trust that you can
29:12
Speaker 3: connect with, really has a profound influence on your life.
29:15
Speaker 3: We know that people who will lonely live less long.
29:18
Speaker 3: In fact, they're about thirty percent more likely to die.
29:21
Speaker 3: It's about as bad as having a pack a day
29:23
Speaker 3: of cigarettes. It's really not good for us. Like we're
29:27
Speaker 3: designed to be a social species. We're meant to be
29:30
Speaker 3: hanging out.
29:31
Speaker 2: Wow, no way, that is actually wild. And because even
29:38
Speaker 2: though we're more and more connected to people now, there
29:42
Speaker 2: have been studies that show that young people especially are
29:44
Speaker 2: feeling more emotions of loneliness and feelings secluded from people. Right,
29:50
Speaker 2: So it's so important to make time for those social connections,
29:53
Speaker 2: but also pay attention to how you feel after you
29:56
Speaker 2: spend time with someone, right, Because somebody might be a
29:59
Speaker 2: friend because you've had history with them, or like we
30:02
Speaker 2: said earlier, like you've gone to school with them, or
30:04
Speaker 2: maybe you work with them. But pay attention to how
30:06
Speaker 2: you feel. Do you feel stressed and anxious afterwards? Because
30:09
Speaker 2: it might be a friendship, but it's like, is it
30:12
Speaker 2: good for your nervous system?
30:13
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, You've got to trust that feeling, and it
30:16
Speaker 3: has to be face to face. You don't get that
30:18
Speaker 3: from texting, you don't get that from digital connection. It
30:23
Speaker 3: has to be a face to face thing. Another thing
30:25
Speaker 3: that happens when we're face to face, like right now, Yeah,
30:27
Speaker 3: we're not aware of it, but our brain are starting
30:29
Speaker 3: to synchronize, Like certain parts of our brain are synchronizing
30:34
Speaker 3: the brain ways, which the first time I heard that,
30:36
Speaker 3: I thought it was a bunch of whack, what is this?
30:39
Speaker 3: But it's the science is solid, Like we're doing that.
30:42
Speaker 3: We're actually synchronizing in parts of our brain.
30:45
Speaker 2: So is that why you like finish people's sentences and
30:48
Speaker 2: stuff when you're together in person, or like you do
30:50
Speaker 2: feel like you start to talk similar to or like
30:54
Speaker 2: behave in similar ways to your friends and more that
30:56
Speaker 2: you spend time with them.
30:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe it there's a bit of that. Yeah, because
30:59
Speaker 3: you're actually kind I have been sinking you know often
31:01
Speaker 3: when you say you're on the same wavelength. Maybe there's
31:03
Speaker 3: a bit more to that than we realize.
31:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, oh my god. I was just thinking. I
31:07
Speaker 2: was like, so, if our brains are sinking up currently,
31:09
Speaker 2: does that mean that I'm becoming smarter or I'm making
31:12
Speaker 2: you dumber? I feel bad.
31:16
Speaker 3: I'm learning from you. I mean I already learned where
31:18
Speaker 3: to get the best blazer in Canberra.
31:19
Speaker 2: So yeah, through we were saying off air before that,
31:24
Speaker 2: if you go to Canberra, go to the Vinni's there
31:26
Speaker 2: because all the politicians let go of their old blazers
31:29
Speaker 2: at the op shops and they're all incredible quality and
31:31
Speaker 2: like fifteen bucks genius.
31:33
Speaker 3: Yeah see see, I love this. I wish I knew
31:36
Speaker 3: this yesterday though. Anyway, that's right, we'll.
31:38
Speaker 2: Just go to Canberra again. And I also read that
31:42
Speaker 2: humans now have an attention span of forty seven seconds,
31:45
Speaker 2: but it takes twenty three minutes to refocus on a
31:49
Speaker 2: task when you become distracted. So do you have any
31:51
Speaker 2: hacks that are backed by neuroscience to help us stay
31:54
Speaker 2: focused or regain focus.
31:56
Speaker 3: Well, we've just got to train our mental muscles. Basically,
32:00
Speaker 3: we've got to actually force ourselves to pay attention to things.
32:03
Speaker 3: So one thing that you could do is just, let's
32:05
Speaker 3: say twenty minutes a day, you put your phone away,
32:08
Speaker 3: put every distraction away that you possibly have, and just
32:12
Speaker 3: focus on whatever it is that you're trying to focus on.
32:14
Speaker 3: And the more you do that, the easier it will get.
32:18
Speaker 3: Other ways that you can sort of train your focus
32:20
Speaker 3: is through things like focused attention meditation, which is basically
32:24
Speaker 3: a type of meditation where you're just you know, you
32:25
Speaker 3: might be focusing on one body part at a time,
32:28
Speaker 3: but by doing that, you're focusing your attention and it
32:31
Speaker 3: just helps train that mental muscle. Other things you could do,
32:35
Speaker 3: I mean, I always love having a pad next to
32:38
Speaker 3: me when I'm working because when an idea pops into
32:41
Speaker 3: my head or something that I was meant to do
32:43
Speaker 3: pops into my head, I write it down. And it's
32:46
Speaker 3: really important to write it down because it takes it
32:48
Speaker 3: out of your working memory, so you're not you know,
32:51
Speaker 3: we've got this finite amount of working memory. It's basically
32:55
Speaker 3: the working memories is pretty much this really really really
32:58
Speaker 3: short term memory that stores about, you know, the information
33:01
Speaker 3: that allows you to do what you're doing in that moment.
33:03
Speaker 3: So my working memory has told me I'm aware of
33:06
Speaker 3: what I just said so I don't repeat it. It's
33:09
Speaker 3: like just that really it's in the moment, right, Yeah.
33:12
Speaker 3: And if you're also thinking about, oh, I need to
33:15
Speaker 3: do this thing, you're going to keep thinking about it.
33:18
Speaker 3: But by putting it down on paper, you can take
33:20
Speaker 3: it out of that working memory. You can just focus
33:22
Speaker 3: on what you're doing, so things like yeah, So it
33:26
Speaker 3: allows you to give that attention to the thing that
33:28
Speaker 3: you're doing, giving it the attention it deserves.
33:30
Speaker 2: And does it need to be physical, like should you
33:32
Speaker 2: be writing it down on a piece of paper or
33:34
Speaker 2: can you.
33:35
Speaker 3: Type it out? You can type it out, Okay, it's just.
33:37
Speaker 2: A matter of like acknowledging that you've got it covered.
33:40
Speaker 2: You can let it go now. I find that really
33:42
Speaker 2: helpful before bed, and that's why I love to create
33:45
Speaker 2: my to do list at the end of the work
33:47
Speaker 2: day and I do like a closing shift before I
33:50
Speaker 2: go to bed, and I write down, like, these are
33:52
Speaker 2: the things that I need to do. I get everything
33:54
Speaker 2: kind of organized that I need to for the next morning,
33:56
Speaker 2: because otherwise I find it so hard to fall a sleave.
33:58
Speaker 3: I mean, perfect example of how useful it can be.
34:01
Speaker 3: Otherwise you might be sitting in bed thinking, oh, I
34:04
Speaker 3: have to do that tomorrow. I better not forget. I
34:05
Speaker 3: better not forget. And then you stay up worrying about
34:10
Speaker 3: it because you're not sure if you'll remember in the morning. Yeah,
34:12
Speaker 3: just write it down.
34:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I love that. Well, thank you so much
34:17
Speaker 2: for coming on the show. I've learned so much, and
34:20
Speaker 2: I know the chicks would have as well. But before
34:23
Speaker 2: I let you go, we always like to wrap our
34:24
Speaker 2: episodes with our guests by asking them one final question. So,
34:28
Speaker 2: across your studies and research of the brain and neuroscience,
34:32
Speaker 2: what's the biggest life lesson you've learned so far?
34:36
Speaker 3: I think the most important thing that I've learned is
34:40
Speaker 3: something called belief effects. So belief effects are this thing
34:43
Speaker 3: where you might have heard the placebo effect right where
34:46
Speaker 3: you've got. You take a like a sugar pill, and
34:49
Speaker 3: it might have an effect on you because you think
34:50
Speaker 3: it might do something good for you, even though it's
34:52
Speaker 3: got nothing in it that might be useful. The same
34:55
Speaker 3: thing applies to how we think about things. So if
35:00
Speaker 3: you think something bad is going to happen, you're more
35:03
Speaker 3: likely to release a lot of stress hormones that can
35:06
Speaker 3: ultimately have a bad effect on your body. One of
35:09
Speaker 3: my favorite studies of all time is called the Milkshake
35:12
Speaker 3: Study and it's by Ali Crum in the United States.
35:16
Speaker 3: And really what that study was is she had a
35:18
Speaker 3: bunch of people that she had chocolate milkshakes, and you know,
35:23
Speaker 3: they either had the chocolate milkshake, which she told them
35:25
Speaker 3: was like rich and decadent and full of calories and
35:28
Speaker 3: all that stuff, and then she had another one which
35:30
Speaker 3: she told them and it was like, you know, a
35:32
Speaker 3: normal sort of like nutritious milkshake. It was the same milkshake, right,
35:37
Speaker 3: but based on what they thought it was, their body
35:40
Speaker 3: released different amounts of hormones and so if they thought
35:44
Speaker 3: it was a rich, dec milkshake, they released less or
35:50
Speaker 3: it changed the amount of the hormone that makes them
35:51
Speaker 3: feel full, so they felt full of for longer because
35:54
Speaker 3: they thought it was a rich, decadent milkshake. And this
35:58
Speaker 3: blew my mind because what shows us is that what
36:01
Speaker 3: we think can change how much of our hormones get released.
36:05
Speaker 3: Other thing, it changes our physiology at this deep, deep level.
36:09
Speaker 3: And I think what this new science of belief effects
36:12
Speaker 3: really shows us is that we have the power to
36:15
Speaker 3: change our body in a way that can really serve us.
36:18
Speaker 3: So we might We often tell ourselves in our minds
36:23
Speaker 3: about how something might happen we might worry about. We
36:25
Speaker 3: might say, Okay, I think this is going to go
36:27
Speaker 3: really badly and things are going to go things will
36:31
Speaker 3: just not work out for me. And when you do that,
36:33
Speaker 3: you'll be releasing maybe more stress hormones and things will
36:36
Speaker 3: go more badly. But why not just tell yourself the
36:39
Speaker 3: positive version of events? Why not just say, actually, I
36:41
Speaker 3: think this is going to be okay. I'm going to
36:43
Speaker 3: be okay, and not only will you have a better
36:46
Speaker 3: physical body state, you will perform better, Like science shows
36:49
Speaker 3: us this now, So how we think about things really matters.
36:52
Speaker 3: Mindset really matters. And I really take that forward in
36:57
Speaker 3: so many parts of my life. I used to have
36:59
Speaker 3: a fear of pub speaking, which might sound a bit
37:01
Speaker 3: weird because I do a lot of it now. Yeah,
37:03
Speaker 3: But one of the things I learned was, well, when
37:06
Speaker 3: you view that stress response and your heart racing and
37:09
Speaker 3: your palms being sweaty and you're breathing fast, if you
37:13
Speaker 3: tell yourself that it means that you're not coping with
37:15
Speaker 3: the situation, then you will do worse. But if you
37:18
Speaker 3: remind yourself that actually that's just your body's stress response
37:22
Speaker 3: helping you to deal with that situation and to improve
37:26
Speaker 3: your performance, then you will do better. So that's really
37:30
Speaker 3: a really pivotal thing for me, and I think it
37:32
Speaker 3: should be for all of us. Like mindset matters.
37:35
Speaker 2: I love that, and because it kind of sounds like
37:38
Speaker 2: manifestation in a way, which I do think a lot
37:41
Speaker 2: of people resonate with, but a lot of people also
37:43
Speaker 2: think like, uh, we we're bullshit. And if you're maybe
37:47
Speaker 2: a little bit more science inspired than knowing the neuroscience
37:51
Speaker 2: behind that, yeah, proves to you that mindset is so important.
37:55
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, Oh my gosh.
37:58
Speaker 2: Well, for any of the chicks who don't already follow you,
38:01
Speaker 2: where can I find you and learn more about you
38:03
Speaker 2: and the work you do.
38:04
Speaker 3: You can find me at Rocket Scientist on pretty much
38:06
Speaker 3: any social media.
38:08
Speaker 2: Yeah amazing. We'll put links to that and your ted
38:11
Speaker 2: talk and your website and everything in the show notes
38:13
Speaker 2: as well, so the chicks can find you.
38:14
Speaker 1: Cool.
38:14
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much, Leli, and thank you
38:17
Speaker 2: chicks for having us in the ear holes. We love
38:19
Speaker 2: to be here, and thanks to el miss you. Bye chicks, Bye,