Latest / Business Brain – The Entrepreneurs’ Podcast / Building in Reverse

Transcript

Building in Reverse · Business Brain – The Entrepreneurs’ Podcast

• 0:00
  Dave Hamilton: Business Brain, episode 792 for Wednesday, September 30th, International Podcast
• 0:07
  Dave Hamilton: Day, 2026. I know, right?
• 0:10
  Shannon Jean: Great day to be podcasting.
• 0:12
  Dave Hamilton: It is. Yeah, it is International Podcast Day. Podcasting has changed my life.
• 0:18
  Dave Hamilton: And it was something... Yeah, mine too. Exactly. Yeah. No doubt about it.
• 0:24
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah, I started it because I knew we needed one at Mac Observer.
• 0:27
  Dave Hamilton: That's what got me i knew we needed one at mac observer,
• 0:33
  Dave Hamilton: as things often happened i would start something and then like pass off you
• 0:39
  Dave Hamilton: know like systematize it and then pass it off to somebody else which did happen
• 0:43
  Dave Hamilton: in a sense except i never passed off the first podcast i started,
• 0:48
  Dave Hamilton: and i've told that story before actually as steve jobs in the middle of it but um,
• 0:53
  Dave Hamilton: but i wound up being the wanted to start it,
• 0:56
  Dave Hamilton: also because i had the like nerd skills to understand how to to like get something
• 1:04
  Dave Hamilton: published and all that stuff and the music like audio hardware and skills to figure out how to like
• 1:12
  Dave Hamilton: get something from a microphone to an rss feed like.
• 1:15
  Shannon Jean: Yes yes yes especially back then it was
• 1:16
  Dave Hamilton: 22 years ago exactly much more difficult way more difficult yeah exactly yeah,
• 1:23
  Dave Hamilton: One thing I still really like about podcasts, though, and I don't see this changing
• 1:29
  Dave Hamilton: anytime soon, and I like it, is that...
• 1:32
  Dave Hamilton: No one accidentally listens to a podcast, right?
• 1:37
  Shannon Jean: That's true.
• 1:38
  Dave Hamilton: Very true. Even here in 2026, it's still kind of a pain in the neck to listen
• 1:42
  Dave Hamilton: to a podcast. It's not just going to come on automatically. You have to seek
• 1:46
  Dave Hamilton: it out. Podcasts are sought out, right?
• 1:48
  Dave Hamilton: You have to go find it. You subscribe. And then you press play when you want to listen.
• 1:55
  Dave Hamilton: That's how it works. And that is one of the things I love about this medium.
• 2:00
  Dave Hamilton: It's why it's one of the best mediums for advertising because it's so targeted
• 2:08
  Dave Hamilton: and not just subject matter wise, but the host.
• 2:12
  Dave Hamilton: Like you listen to this show because presumably you like something that Shannon
• 2:17
  Dave Hamilton: and or I bring to this show.
• 2:20
  Dave Hamilton: If you didn't, you just stop listening, I would hope.
• 2:24
  Shannon Jean: And also specific episodes. You even pick like, oh, I'm going to drill down.
• 2:27
  Shannon Jean: I don't want to hear that.
• 2:28
  Dave Hamilton: I don't need to hear that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So speaking of sponsors,
• 2:32
  Dave Hamilton: factor meals.com slash business brain five zero off, uh, and use code business
• 2:38
  Dave Hamilton: brain five zero off gets you.
• 2:40
  Dave Hamilton: Yes. 50% off your first box at factor, uh, factor meals, I should say.
• 2:46
  Dave Hamilton: And then, uh, shopify.com slash business brain, where you can start your free
• 2:50
  Dave Hamilton: trial and own your revenue. We'll talk more about those in a little bit.
• 2:54
  Dave Hamilton: Uh, for now here, I'm in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton.
• 2:58
  Shannon Jean: And I'm in Northern California. I'm Shannon Jean. Yeah. Happy to be here.
• 3:01
  Dave Hamilton: I am too.
• 3:01
  Shannon Jean: Awesome. I wanna talk about, I like to, you know, I like to do things backward, do things in reverse.
• 3:08
  Dave Hamilton: And it, whenever I- Did you drive to the studio today in reverse?
• 3:13
  Shannon Jean: Yeah. Sorry, I can't help it. I didn't have to drive. Yeah, it's good.
• 3:16
  Shannon Jean: But what I find is that whenever I start something and I forget about doing
• 3:22
  Shannon Jean: it in reverse, it often doesn't turn out as well.
• 3:25
  Shannon Jean: And so here's what I mean about doing it in reverse is,
• 3:30
  Shannon Jean: A very easy example is building something you think people are going to use
• 3:35
  Shannon Jean: without talking to them, right? Without knowing what you're getting into,
• 3:40
  Shannon Jean: like piece of software or a service or a community or whatever.
• 3:44
  Shannon Jean: And on the flip side is you should be figuring out how to get in the conversation
• 3:51
  Shannon Jean: with those people so you can listen to what they want.
• 3:54
  Shannon Jean: And I see this all the time. I see people, or I get approached weekly with,
• 4:00
  Shannon Jean: I've created this app. I want you to look at it. It's going to help all these
• 4:03
  Shannon Jean: resellers. It's, it does yada, yada, yada. And then I look at it and go,
• 4:06
  Shannon Jean: well, are you sure that's what they want?
• 4:10
  Shannon Jean: And usually that sometimes that ends the conversation, you know,
• 4:13
  Shannon Jean: it's like, well, uh, like how many resellers have you talked to?
• 4:16
  Shannon Jean: You know, in my case, that's my niche. Uh, and so, uh,
• 4:20
  Shannon Jean: It's important to start things backwards, start in reverse. When I wanted to
• 4:26
  Shannon Jean: do my first cohort, which I'd never done before, I didn't even really know what
• 4:29
  Shannon Jean: they were, which is a group of people that you work with.
• 4:32
  Shannon Jean: I had no idea how to do it. So I just started talking about it.
• 4:35
  Shannon Jean: And I was like, okay, let's, you know, what would you want in a cohort?
• 4:40
  Shannon Jean: And people started telling me, and I like set up calls and like,
• 4:43
  Shannon Jean: hey, I'm gonna do a call. I'm just gonna ask questions because I don't know
• 4:46
  Shannon Jean: how to do this. My beginner mind, right?
• 4:48
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah.
• 4:49
  Shannon Jean: And so let's talk. And we had conversations with over 100 people,
• 4:54
  Shannon Jean: and they told us what they need help with,
• 4:58
  Shannon Jean: what the vehicle they would like to use, whether calls or an online forum,
• 5:03
  Shannon Jean: this kind of thing, or a combination of.
• 5:05
  Shannon Jean: And even more importantly, they told us what they would pay for it,
• 5:09
  Dave Hamilton: Right?
• 5:10
  Shannon Jean: So that by the time we were done with all that call, we had all these great data,
• 5:17
  Shannon Jean: and we had over 100 people that joined this wait list and I got a chance to
• 5:21
  Shannon Jean: talk with, we knew pretty much what they wanted. And
• 5:27
  Shannon Jean: we listened to them. So we built this thing at a price point that they wanted
• 5:33
  Shannon Jean: to pay, offering the information and the resources that they felt they needed
• 5:38
  Shannon Jean: via a vehicle they told us of how they would like to interact with us.
• 5:43
  Shannon Jean: And it was a success. that you know much better wildly successful than i even
• 5:48
  Shannon Jean: thought it would be but because we did it in reverse we did not say we're just
• 5:55
  Shannon Jean: going to launch this thing and see what happens we didn't do that
• 5:58
  Dave Hamilton: No so i i as sometimes happens on this show i'll say often um you,
• 6:09
  Dave Hamilton: described what you did uh your path to success for a thing,
• 6:15
  Dave Hamilton: and and it's all true right yeah i think that you because you're you you can't see,
• 6:26
  Dave Hamilton: one of the magic pieces one of the magic ingredients because it's obvious to
• 6:31
  Dave Hamilton: you so obvious in fact that you don't think of it as a magic ingredient And
• 6:37
  Dave Hamilton: yet it is one of your superpowers.
• 6:40
  Dave Hamilton: And yes, I am paying you a compliment, but I'm also. Thank you.
• 6:43
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. Well, I'll explain what I mean here.
• 6:46
  Dave Hamilton: I don't know what for yet. So. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'll get there.
• 6:48
  Dave Hamilton: So you're right. You built this in reverse.
• 6:51
  Dave Hamilton: What you did, though, and I've seen you do this multiple times.
• 6:55
  Dave Hamilton: And I really think is is the key is you had a vision of sorts,
• 7:02
  Dave Hamilton: not a fully not a fully fleshed out vision at all.
• 7:06
  Dave Hamilton: But you have this vision of like, okay, there's some version of this thing that I want to build.
• 7:12
  Dave Hamilton: And I know that I can because why not?
• 7:16
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. And you're right. You go into all of these things with beginner's mind
• 7:21
  Dave Hamilton: and you start asking people and just collecting data and letting it sort of
• 7:26
  Dave Hamilton: form, like you said, in reverse in a sense.
• 7:30
  Dave Hamilton: And all of that's true. But there's one element that I think is...
• 7:36
  Dave Hamilton: Super important to this and it is a well-managed ego i was gonna say you did
• 7:42
  Dave Hamilton: it without any ego but that's not true what you what you did it with is a well-managed
• 7:48
  Dave Hamilton: ego and what i mean by that,
• 7:50
  Dave Hamilton: is you did not let your ego tell you
• 7:55
  Dave Hamilton: hey whatever version of this vision this cohort that you're going to start that
• 8:00
  Dave Hamilton: you might have had is the right one you didn't try to steer people towards your initial vision you,
• 8:08
  Dave Hamilton: had this idea and then was like well but what does that mean let me yeah.
• 8:13
  Shannon Jean: And i've done that i've done it the other way and it doesn't work as
• 8:15
  Dave Hamilton: Well it doesn't that's for sure that's what i'm saying is like and i've seen
• 8:20
  Dave Hamilton: this happen and i i've certainly done it and i but i've and i've i've experienced
• 8:25
  Dave Hamilton: it too it's often easier to see when other people do this because you know ego um,
• 8:30
  Dave Hamilton: but but we all do it at some level you have learned,
• 8:35
  Dave Hamilton: to do it less than than the average bear and i really think that is everything
• 8:43
  Dave Hamilton: you described is exactly the,
• 8:46
  Dave Hamilton: like the what you did and a right way i don't want to say the right way there's
• 8:50
  Dave Hamilton: many ways to do things oh yeah but it is a great way to implement these things but you can't do it,
• 8:58
  Dave Hamilton: If you're going to let your ego run the run the operation, because you don't
• 9:05
  Dave Hamilton: if you know that you don't know, then let that be.
• 9:09
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. Make make yourself OK with that. And I've it's super.
• 9:13
  Shannon Jean: Yeah. It's super freeing when you can say that. I don't know. I don't.
• 9:16
  Dave Hamilton: I don't know. And I'm even thinking, you know, here at BackBeat Media,
• 9:24
  Dave Hamilton: we really like to represent shows individually, which is why we have like 70
• 9:28
  Dave Hamilton: shows, not 700 shows, right? We really like that.
• 9:32
  Dave Hamilton: But we've done a lot internally to systematize things and automate the things,
• 9:39
  Dave Hamilton: that are okay to automate, you know, while still leaving the human touch in there.
• 9:44
  Dave Hamilton: In our vision of what the human touch is, and that's all fine.
• 9:47
  Dave Hamilton: And now we're at a point where we could do our thing with double the number of shows.
• 9:53
  Dave Hamilton: And so we're expanding shows. And it's fine. And it's going,
• 9:58
  Dave Hamilton: you know, we've, again, come up with a system for kind of filtering down and
• 10:01
  Dave Hamilton: finding the right shows of fiercely independent podcasters, the whole thing.
• 10:05
  Dave Hamilton: But as you're saying this and thinking, gosh, you know, what we're trying to do is build a cohort.
• 10:09
  Dave Hamilton: It's the same kind of thing. Right. Yes. You know, at 10,000 feet,
• 10:13
  Dave Hamilton: it's the same freaking thing.
• 10:15
  Dave Hamilton: And yet, why not build this in reverse? Why not ask people what they want?
• 10:25
  Shannon Jean: Not what you offer.
• 10:27
  Dave Hamilton: Instead of what I offer. Right. And why not? Just like, we can keep moving and
• 10:34
  Dave Hamilton: pulling in shows, but why not ask people, hey, what would you want?
• 10:37
  Dave Hamilton: And then, and this is the hard part, listen to them.
• 10:42
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, you have to implement. And let me back up a little bit because I want
• 10:47
  Shannon Jean: to also, it's important to highlight.
• 10:49
  Shannon Jean: But the reason why in that case, as I used as an example, that cohort is because
• 10:53
  Shannon Jean: it was solving a problem for me. And the problem was the consultant trap.
• 10:58
  Dave Hamilton: Right.
• 10:58
  Shannon Jean: That we identified on this show that we're talking about. Because I was excited.
• 11:02
  Shannon Jean: I'm like, I'm coaching all these people. This is so amazing.
• 11:04
  Shannon Jean: And you were like, oh, dude, you're in trouble.
• 11:08
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:09
  Shannon Jean: Exactly. And it was exactly right. And I experienced the same thing.
• 11:12
  Shannon Jean: And I was like, okay, how do we get out of this? And so I just started talking
• 11:17
  Shannon Jean: to our community about that. Oh, and also in public talking about,
• 11:22
  Shannon Jean: oh, I don't know, we don't know.
• 11:24
  Shannon Jean: I don't know how to do this, but I'd love your input. And you can be,
• 11:28
  Shannon Jean: we call them founding members. Like you could become a founding member of these
• 11:31
  Shannon Jean: cohorts and we'll build it together to make sure it fits your needs and what
• 11:36
  Shannon Jean: you wanna do. And I just really,
• 11:39
  Shannon Jean: you know, that's, and I've done this, that kind of thing a few times forward,
• 11:42
  Shannon Jean: but I can easily look at doing it the other way and see things in my business
• 11:46
  Shannon Jean: career that have failed miserably because I did not take into account what they really wanted.
• 11:53
  Shannon Jean: I took more into account what I was offering.
• 11:55
  Dave Hamilton: So here's a question for all of us to ask about our existing businesses.
• 12:01
  Dave Hamilton: It's also good to ask about like anything you're about to build,
• 12:06
  Dave Hamilton: but for your existing business, and this is a hard question to ask because it's
• 12:12
  Dave Hamilton: your business already and presumably generating some sort of cash flow that
• 12:17
  Dave Hamilton: you're relying on, all of those things.
• 12:19
  Dave Hamilton: Ask the question, who wants this?
• 12:25
  Dave Hamilton: Who wants it? This should be a question that's fairly easy to answer.
• 12:29
  Shannon Jean: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Dave Hamilton: You might not like the answer if you answer it honestly, but it also,
• 12:36
  Dave Hamilton: can be really exciting because it gives you literally the answer of what to
• 12:42
  Dave Hamilton: build next in your business. Yeah. Who wants this?
• 12:45
  Shannon Jean: And it's hard because you fall in love with certain processes,
• 12:51
  Shannon Jean: certain products and services that you're offering.
• 12:54
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah.
• 12:54
  Shannon Jean: You know, and it is a good question to ask. And I also would add,
• 12:59
  Shannon Jean: you are not your customer.
• 13:02
  Dave Hamilton: You might have been at one point. But probably not anymore. But probably not
• 13:06
  Dave Hamilton: anymore. That's right. Yeah. Yep.
• 13:09
  Dave Hamilton: Yep. Yeah. And if you are still your customer, then you can help answer this
• 13:15
  Dave Hamilton: question. But you've got to be honest.
• 13:17
  Dave Hamilton: You've got to take off your I'm the business owner hat. You've got to put on I'm the customer hat.
• 13:22
  Dave Hamilton: What are all the things that I would want differently than that business,
• 13:27
  Dave Hamilton: which is also your business, offers?
• 13:29
  Dave Hamilton: And look at your competition. Do they offer something I don't?
• 13:32
  Dave Hamilton: Would I like that if I was a customer? Yeah, that's right. Okay, well, you know.
• 13:38
  Shannon Jean: I think you'd be surprised if you get an opportunity to talk to your customers
• 13:42
  Shannon Jean: or potential customers that,
• 13:44
  Shannon Jean: You'd be surprised at what becomes most important to them.
• 13:48
  Shannon Jean: It could be the littlest thing that you could then build your service around.
• 13:52
  Shannon Jean: It could be like, you know, if you're in the HVAC business, I wouldn't be shocked
• 13:56
  Shannon Jean: if people say, you know, I want the technicians to be clean when they walk in
• 14:00
  Shannon Jean: my house. I want them to cover their boots.
• 14:02
  Shannon Jean: I want them to do whatever. It's not price.
• 14:05
  Shannon Jean: Yes. You just don't know. It's often not price.
• 14:09
  Shannon Jean: When people answer those questions, price is down the list. It's mainly service
• 14:13
  Shannon Jean: type issues. So it's a great idea asking that question.
• 14:17
  Dave Hamilton: Who wants this? All right. We will all ask that question.
• 14:23
  Dave Hamilton: And we have some other questions to ask, too. The next thing that we want to
• 14:27
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• 14:32
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• 14:36
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• 14:39
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• 14:44
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• 14:48
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• 15:02
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• 15:10
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• 15:12
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• 15:19
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• 15:23
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• 15:25
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• 15:29
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• 15:34
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• 15:41
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• 15:46
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• 15:51
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• 15:54
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• 16:00
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• 17:34
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• 17:39
  Dave Hamilton: All right. I think I'm going to I'm going to take a slight detour here,
• 17:44
  Dave Hamilton: Shannon, because I had a couple of couple of ideas to chat about.
• 17:49
  Dave Hamilton: But the one that I I want to talk about, actually, the thing that I just want
• 17:53
  Dave Hamilton: to say is buy a tripod for your phone.
• 18:00
  Dave Hamilton: You know, and it can be it can be a tripod that that like hold your phone with
• 18:04
  Dave Hamilton: a MagSafe thing. If your phone supports, you know, MagSafe, which,
• 18:08
  Dave Hamilton: you know, I like because it's simple and easy or it can be one that has like
• 18:12
  Dave Hamilton: a, you know, a compression mount, like a squeeze mount or whatever, whatever.
• 18:14
  Dave Hamilton: Sure. Something where your phone can be held up while you
• 18:20
  Dave Hamilton: are talking and recording all of the content that you're going to record for
• 18:26
  Dave Hamilton: your business, for whatever it is you're doing.
• 18:31
  Dave Hamilton: Sure, you can hold your phone up and record, but man, it hurts.
• 18:38
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:39
  Dave Hamilton: It hurts.
• 18:40
  Shannon Jean: I actually, yeah, I have one that attaches to my desk too as well.
• 18:43
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Shannon Jean: I have both. I have a tripod. I think it's awesome. And you're spot on that
• 18:52
  Shannon Jean: you need to have one. And for me, I record a lot of that kind of content sitting at my desk.
• 18:57
  Shannon Jean: So I'm like, oh, I'm just going to get one in addition to, you know,
• 19:01
  Shannon Jean: This is inexpensive stuff.
• 19:03
  Dave Hamilton: Yeah. I've got one from ShiftCam. It's the SnapStand Max. And it's,
• 19:10
  Dave Hamilton: for what it is, it is inexpensive. It's about $70. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's mag safe.
• 19:16
  Dave Hamilton: It can go up to six feet tall.
• 19:18
  Dave Hamilton: You definitely want something,
• 19:23
  Dave Hamilton: that can go tall. so that you know i i traveled to new york last week and i grabbed,
• 19:30
  Dave Hamilton: the i grabbed a much smaller tripod i was like oh let me that's fine i'll just
• 19:33
  Dave Hamilton: throw that in and it's meant for like use on a desk and,
• 19:37
  Dave Hamilton: it sucked that limits you yes it limits you you know and and you don't want
• 19:42
  Dave Hamilton: to be looking down at it that's a weird angle um the stuff that you do at your desk are they,
• 19:48
  Dave Hamilton: the the t because i think you have a team who manages all this stuff are they
• 19:51
  Dave Hamilton: filtering out the background and just putting like other things in the background at your desk uh.
• 19:57
  Shannon Jean: Sometimes but sometimes it's just this i got my i have a black curtain that's
• 20:01
  Shannon Jean: behind my desk and that's all so i do it i do both ways
• 20:05
  Dave Hamilton: Um interesting and.
• 20:07
  Shannon Jean: Yeah and it's it's great you know
• 20:09
  Dave Hamilton: I found the stuff that i recorded at my desk did not do nearly as well as the
• 20:13
  Dave Hamilton: things that i just recorded like standing up somewhere in my office or outside
• 20:17
  Dave Hamilton: or you know sitting in front of my drums or what like that's a.
• 20:20
  Shannon Jean: Really good point Because what's happening is people are really getting tired of like AI
• 20:26
  Dave Hamilton: Slop and fake videos.
• 20:29
  Shannon Jean: So yours where you're standing there and you're just normal and you're talking to your camera,
• 20:36
  Shannon Jean: uh it their their trend much higher they do engage your engagement's going to
• 20:41
  Shannon Jean: be much better and i i think
• 20:44
  Shannon Jean: the the here i already know what the big takeaway from this episode is okay
• 20:49
  Shannon Jean: because it's not just get a tripod it's get comfortable in front of the camera well
• 20:55
  Dave Hamilton: That's it and that's why i said get a tripod because.
• 20:59
  Shannon Jean: It'll make you look better it
• 21:00
  Dave Hamilton: Well and it's more comfortable to record that way than holding your phone up for.
• 21:07
  Shannon Jean: 10 minutes. Yeah, because you want to be able to talk and you want to be able
• 21:10
  Shannon Jean: to frame the space the way you want.
• 21:12
  Shannon Jean: And if you're like this all the time, it's weird. And if you look up,
• 21:18
  Shannon Jean: you're right. It's a huge thing.
• 21:21
  Dave Hamilton: I wound up doing it that way in New York last week because it was my option.
• 21:23
  Dave Hamilton: It was like, all right, well, I got to do it for three shows.
• 21:25
  Dave Hamilton: I got to do this one. I got to do GigGab. I got to do MacGigab.
• 21:29
  Dave Hamilton: And I'm just going to do it. And I would, you know, do one and then,
• 21:32
  Dave Hamilton: you know, take a three minute break and then I'd do the next round and three
• 21:36
  Dave Hamilton: minute break and then the next round and I was done.
• 21:38
  Dave Hamilton: And it was fine. And there is some charm in that, in the kind of like,
• 21:43
  Dave Hamilton: you know, jaggedy camera kind of thing.
• 21:47
  Dave Hamilton: But it can it's way simpler to be able to just have both hands free.
• 21:53
  Shannon Jean: When you're talking more.
• 21:55
  Dave Hamilton: And you want people to be able to see you talking.
• 21:58
  Shannon Jean: That is the key. Yep, that's it.
• 22:00
  Dave Hamilton: So, and you're not gonna do it,
• 22:03
  Dave Hamilton: Like if you haven't started yet, you can come up with a million different excuses,
• 22:08
  Dave Hamilton: and really you just have to start and eventually you will get comfortable with it.
• 22:12
  Dave Hamilton: And one way to get comfortable is to have a tripod. That's also an investment
• 22:16
  Dave Hamilton: that you've made. And so now you want to use it and you get excited about it
• 22:19
  Dave Hamilton: and maybe that'll get you over the hump. So, yep.
• 22:21
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, I think that's great. I think, you know, when we could do a whole episode
• 22:25
  Shannon Jean: on tips for filming because I sucked at it and I wasn't comfortable with it.
• 22:29
  Shannon Jean: Yeah, we'll put that on the list because there's a lot to it and a lot to getting
• 22:34
  Shannon Jean: comfortable, but it's super powerful. It's a massive unlock for every single
• 22:39
  Shannon Jean: business to have the founder talking on camera.
• 22:41
  Dave Hamilton: It is the world we live in right now. And there is no amount of content that is too much.
• 22:49
  Dave Hamilton: You just put it all out there.
• 22:51
  Shannon Jean: Or too weird. We talked about it in between. So, yeah, to me,
• 22:56
  Shannon Jean: that's the big takeaway. get comfortable on the camera, behind the camera,
• 23:00
  Shannon Jean: you know, so you can get on there. I think that's huge. I'd love to expand on it more.
• 23:05
  Shannon Jean: We're gonna do it in our Business Blueprint. Go to businessbrain.show slash
• 23:10
  Shannon Jean: blueprints and you can download those, they're free.
• 23:13
  Shannon Jean: And we do them for every single episode. We take a deeper dive into a topic that we really like.
• 23:19
  Dave Hamilton: Check it out, folks. Feedback at businessbrain.show if you have anything to
• 23:22
  Dave Hamilton: send in and keep living that charmed life. We'll see you on Friday.