Latest / The Science of Skin / Innovation: A discussion with Barb Green, J & J Consumer, Senior Director and Lead Innovator for Neutrogena, Aveeno and Clean & Clear

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Innovation: A discussion with Barb Green, J & J Consumer, Senior Director and Lead Innovator for Neutrogena, Aveeno and Clean & Clear · The Science of Skin

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Skin Care Confidential, a podcast dedicated to an insider's look at the skincare industry.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I am a board-certified dermatologist, and along with my co-founder, Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Patty Ferris, we run the Science of Skin Care Summit, a once-yearly summit dedicated to the science and trials data behind skincare ingredients.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I could not be more excited to have my guest, Barb Green, with us today.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Barb is a pharmacist.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: She's got a master's of pharmaceutical chemistry, but she also has decades of experience in the skincare industry.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: She is currently the senior director at JNJ with uh oversight of the portfolio and responsible for the innovation for Innovate Aveno, Neutrogena, and Clean and Clear.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: She's an advisory committee member for the Journal of Cosmetic Dermatology, and she herself is has published over 80 publications.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Barb, thanks so much for being with us.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's so great to be here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We are so excited to have you.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, Barb, let's get started.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean you've been involved in the skincare industry since, gosh, since the early 90s at least.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: I um I started off my career at Unilever, and then I had a really unique and amazing opportunity to join Neostrata Company when it was a startup and um to help develop all their novel patented technology, starting with the alpha hydroxy acids like glycolic acid, and then the polyhydroxy acids, gluconolactone, lactobionic acid, and some of the other bionics, and then moving into some newer areas like N acetyl glucosamine, which is a non-acid anti-aging exfoliant ingredient, and then more recently uh a novel acetyl dipeptide that we call microdipeptide 229.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a that's probably our latest um patented innovation that's just actually recently launched in our in our um brands, both within the Neostrata portfolio as well as um the Neutrogena as portfolio as well.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I think about Neostrata, I I think about think about it as one of the OGs in in the premium skincare um category.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and you're right, right.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's was started by a dermatologist and a formulator and a biochemist, right?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and they essentially discover what the alpha hydroxy acids, am I right?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so their you know, their original passion was um helping to find a cure for ichthyosis and particularly the most severe forms like lamellar ichthyosis and recognizing it's a full-body condition, what would be a kind of a natural type of ingredient that could be applied full-body that would have an effect on that process of keratinization?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and in screening compounds, they identified the very unique benefit of the AHAs relative to other compounds.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so glycolic acid, lactic acid, these are compounds that people would probably know pretty well and initially first discovered for their benefits on the dry skin conditions, and then later um related more to anti-aging and helping to volumize the skin, um, not only enhancing cell turnover, but having some benefits deeper in the skin that then help to reduce fine lines and wrinkles and um improve overall tone and texture.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when I think when I think about those alpha hydroxy acids, right?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I in terms of kind of stratifying them for their strength, I think of lactic acid maybe being a little bit weaker than than glycolic acid.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps it's a little bit larger molecule, doesn't cause as much exfoliation.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're pretty similar.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: They um there there's just there's a little bit of different data on them.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're but in terms of molecule size, both glycolic and lactic are pretty small.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: When you start to go up to the one of the benefits of moving up to say the pHs and the bionic acids, where they're just a little bit bigger in size, still small molecules, but um, so they can absorb into the skin, but just a little bigger.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that did help to impart some of the gentleness that those molecules brought with them.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, focusing on those polyhydroxy acids, gluconolactone, for example, that you mentioned, and there are others.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: We think about those as more gentle exfoliants, maybe more suitable for sensitive skin patients, or perhaps more suitable for those patients who are or consumers who are using a retinol or some kind of retinoid and want to still have some exfoliation.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Agree with that?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's an excellent point.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, um, one of the unique benefits that those ingredients bring are not only gentleness, but also a hydration component.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are humectants, they can attract water and um and and actually even can help to strengthen the skin barrier.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we've shown that with gluconolactone.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that makes it a really nice adjunctive um cosmetic product to use in conjunction with, say, retinoids.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love those ingredients that serve more than one purpose.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's crazy to think about an exfoliator and a humectant combined.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Think about that with urea as well in some way, as part of the natural moisturizing factor, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, so but there are so many different ways we can bring benefits to the skin and um focusing on replenishing what we normally would have, like natural moisturizing factor, also lactic acid part of that.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are we're able to help to rejuvenate the skin and the moisture barrier and and um bring about hydration in a lot of different ways.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so for our listeners, natural moisturizing factor is an endogenous, it's made by the skin.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's got a few different ingredients combined to provide more hydration.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you can cause the skin to produce more NMF or natural moisturizing factor, you can increase the hydration of the skin from the body's uh own system.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's really wonderful to be able to do that just by using different skincare ingredients.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what we're discussing.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: But Barb, you touched on this new this novel peptide that was recently developed.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Can you go and go into more detail on that?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd love to.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one of the things we're always looking at are um what what consumer insights are out there to to drive innovation and discovery and what are the needs.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so um peptides are are small portions of, say, a protein, and um, so they can be very small.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case, um, we developed a dye peptide, so it's two amino acids in length, and that means it's very small, which gives it the opportunity to absorb into the surface layers of the skin, um, where it can then have the benefit on skin.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, one of the needs we identified was this uh opportunity to provide more lifting and firming, volumizing effects to skin.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so as we um studied skin biology and the opportunity to um look at novel um combinations of these amino acids and dipeptides, we honed in on this one ingredient that we call microdipeptide 229 that has a beautiful firming effect and volumizing effect.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that also penetrates um readily because it's a small enough size.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Many peptides are larger in size, making that a bit more challenging.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, understanding formulation components is so critical.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh we also were able to, our teams were able to develop a formulation that can um a strategy that helps to deliver it even more so into the skin, um, into the surface layers, just because of formulating components.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, like understanding formulating factors, so critical as well.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you talk about increasing penetration, right, that one of the skin's primary objectives is to keep things out.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it was meant to do, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a formulator, one of the largest hurdles is just to try and get something into the skin.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just give us some insight as to how you think about that as a formulator and and how much time is spent with a new formulation just increasing penetration and so that you can affect change?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's a really delicate balance because you need to, you know, you need to be able to get something into the surface layers in order to have a benefit, but you you can't do that too quickly, or or you could cause irritation depending on the ingredient.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, formulators, it's a you know, big part of their science and understanding how to modify components in the formulation so that it is more like the skin and then allowing ingredients to absorb in um you know a bit more gradually and naturally.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so that's where you know that a lot there's some experimentation involved, obviously.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: We can measure penetration through transdermal delivery models in certain cases, and um look to be able to show um activity.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are even surrogate ways to show activity.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, with retinol, we can look at activity through um bioactivation and for example, receptors like the um CRAB BP2 receptor, the cellular retinoic acid binding protein receptor.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: We know if we're activating that, we're getting the retinol into the skin to where it can then have its effect that we're looking for.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amazing.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, between different ethnicities and skin types, I mean, we can talk about Fitzpatrick skin types, which really is more related to how different skin types respond to phototherapy or sunlight.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we talk about Fitzpatrick skin types one through six, where you know, four, five, and six being more melanin-rich versus one and two being much lighter.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is it more, do you have to formulate differently for the different Fitzpatrick skin types or different ethnicities of skin, or does all skin react the same?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's an excellent question and something we're, you know, we're all working so hard to be able to make sure we're meeting the needs of a full range of the full range of consumers that we're serving.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of ways to approach that.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so, one, for example, in our skin biology assays, we can look at cells from different skin types and look to see the reactivity of the cells to the different kinds of special anti-aging molecules and benefit ingredients that we're using to see how different skin types respond.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are definitely formulating factors that go into delivering benefits for the different skin types and skin tones.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And depending on the area and category you're innovating against, formulation design is important.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And like, so if you think about sunscreens, for example, how critically important it is to be considering skin tone right at the beginning of formulation design.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of penetration and getting the benefit ingredients in, typically there it's pretty uniform across skin types, um, but you might see a different, you might have a different kind of need.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: For example, we know in the darker Fitzpatrick types and certain ethnicities that we'll see a bigger incidence of, say, post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation and the need to be able to focus on those unique benefits and and needs of the skin types, like helping to even the skin tone and to reduce the appearance of dark spots that can be hard to treat.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation is a pigmentation that occurs after inflammation, right?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's the dark spots that are left.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if you have an acne blemish, we see that much more commonly in the in the higher Fitzpatrick skin types than we do in in Fitzpatrick skin type one or two, for example.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I completely understand.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also uh from from my understanding, there's also a difference in terms of sebum production between the skin types, uh, ceramide content between the skin types.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: It you you know, formulating for the different skin types is tricky, but I I think you make a very, very good point uh about the sunscreens because historically, you know, we really didn't have much for melanin-rich skin.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and when you put on a zinc or titanium uh uh you know mineral sunscreen on on uh darker skin tones, it looks chalky and white and and therefore you know really not cosmetically elegant and not usable.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I have to give kudos to Neutrogena and to you, Barb, because you really are the tip of the spear in innovation in the skin in the excuse me in the sunscreen uh sector to develop products for different skin tones, which is so important as a practicing dermatologist where you know I deal with PIH, I deal with melasma, and I and I deal with photosensitive disorders.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, those skin issues that become worse with sunlight, we have to use sunscreens.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so to have cosmetically elegant Fitzpatrick skin type appropriate products has been such a revelation in in my specialty.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um thank you for what you're doing for for the patience and to to help us out as well.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean I couldn't agree more.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's super it's very critical, and um it's a big part of our innovation and in process now, just to make it make sure we're embedding diversity and into all of the elements from our insights through skin biology, the way we design our clinicals and the formulation strategy all the way through to execution because we need to make sure all the patients are, you know, we're able to talk to all the patients and deliver against the needs.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think we're seeing diversity finally taken into account with product development.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm all I also hope we're seeing diversity taken into account in industry and and hiring um uh diverse backgrounds, people with with diverse ethnicities.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that, you know, as you you've been involved for a while, so you've seen the industry change.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw on your CV you you kind of led a DEI initiative.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about how the industry is changing and we're finally able to really grasp the importance of inclusion within skincare development.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I it it it is critically important.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that we focus on at Johnson ⁇ Johnson Consumer and across our brands.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as I said, both in our innovation approach, but also, as you said, in terms of the way we approach hiring and ensure that we're we are taking an approach that encourages diversity and inclusion throughout all these processes.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it's it's not only it's it's important because we want to be able to represent the consumers that we're that we're that we're selling to and and all the different you know patients that you're that you're seeing, um, but also because diversity makes us all better.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: We get to we get different perspectives and um and it it helps to provide a more holistic view in terms of how we research, develop, look at insights, and and assess things.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um without question, I think in this industry especially, um, we're see we're seeing a huge movement here.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you within dermatology, it's it's there's a huge initiative to not only include more ethnicities in terms of training uh of dermatologists, but also for us to understand how the different especially inflammatory skin diseases present in the different skin tones, because it it really is very different between a physopatric skin type one and a five or six when you think about psoriasis or eczema or even sebarric dermatitis.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's very different.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So so I I really I'm so enthusiastic about what's happening right now with the DEI initiatives with an industry, as well as our specialty in education, in in hiring, all of it m much too late, but at least we are we are finally come around and and we are embracing it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's great.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So Barb, I just want to switch gears a little bit.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, I I you in particular have been involved in the development of stabilized retinol.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, without stabilized retinol, I'm not sure where we'd be with OTC skincare.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: As we know, retinol is incredibly important for improving fine lines and wrinkles, increasing collagen production, therefore, increasing dermal matrix contents, it decreases pigmentation, it may even have anti-cancer benefits.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: The list goes on and on, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just talk to us about the history of stabilized retinol and please lead us into that retinol essay that was recently launched?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so uh I'm gonna I'll speak to this topic, but this goes back to Johnson ⁇ Johnson consumer um many years ago, and um at a time when you know the retinoids were really just developing cosmetic retinoids, and so in with retinol, and and in 1996, the Neutrogena brand launched the first stabilized retinol formulation.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um, part of what needed to be done was retinol is extremely reactive to both light and air, and so needed to be able to be formulated in a way that it could be protected.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there was a lot of work early on to help ensure protection and then maintenance of the level of the of the ingredient in the product over its shelf life, so that it could go on to deliver the benefit over the life of the product, which was important.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and something probably pretty new to cosmetics at the time, like that was something we would think about from a drug perspective.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: But because this was a sensitive ingredient in cosmetics, we also needed to be able to take that approach for cosmetic formulations.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so um stabilizing through packaging, through ensuring you're removing um oxidation-prone environment in the in the processing of the ingredient and then formulating in ways that you provide extra protection within the formulation.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I started to mention a little bit before just how important it is to make sure you also control the rate of delivery so that when you're when you're selling in an environment like um to the mass market and um in the consumer area, even though you know we know we're bringing a prestige like aesthetic and we want dermatologists great efficacy, we also know we need to be able to deliver on gentleness so that these are not irritating when a broader population is using them.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so another big part of the of the innovation for retinol that Johnson ⁇ Johnson Consumer and Neutrogeno was able to bring was um the just the gradual penetration by modifying the polarity index of the of the formulation relative to what we know the skin is, and to then just be able to deliver it in a way that you're getting the benefit, but not irritating the skin.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was something that was really um a big innovation for retinol.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, Neutrogena has over a hundred clinical studies on the benefits of retinol.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So really um a leader in that space.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now let's let's talk about this novel retinol essay.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I'm just so in enthralled by this ingredient.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us how it was even developed?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it's it's launched already.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's in multiple different products within the Neutrogena line, right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, in the rapid wrinkle repair line.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um yes, and so it's it the formulation was developed, like I said, to be able to um have that sustained action effect.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you're getting sustained action.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: CSA, yes, you're getting um a gentle and gradual penetration into the skin.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're able to map, we're able to show the bioactivity, as I mentioned, through um through the the skin biology tests that we're able to do looking at cells and cellular activation um in in vitro models.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um we're also similarly able to look at the impact on um on irritation endpoints that way.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we're able to be able to show that you're that you're maintaining or delivering that effectiveness without increasing irritation potential, especially will benchmark against high strength formulations or maybe even other um, you know, types of products out there to make sure able to deliver a benefit, but also in a tolerable way.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you can mitigate some of the adverse effects of the retinol, the retinization, for example, the initial redness and scaling, stinging, burning, photosensitivity, or sun sensitivity, if you're able to mitigate that by doing a slow release and still penetrate, you you kind of benefit, you get all the benefits, but limit the downside, which is absolutely perfect for retinol, because really there's very few people in whom retinol is not advised.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: We we think about retinol as as almost a one size fits all fits all product.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um I see that as being uh a really big advantage in the marketplace and something that was such a great innovation.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there are retinol alternatives, right, Barb?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: For those people who just are are scared about using retinol, maybe their skin is super sensitive.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: There are retinol alternatives for me.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: That the one that comes to mind is Bacuchiol.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Have you done work with that product?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: So Bacuchiol, relatively new to the formulating environment and products.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um yes, it's something that we're super interested in and exploring.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is um it's an ingredient that is not a retinoid per se, but delivers benefits similar to retinol.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I have to say there are other ingredients I would say that can deliver also maybe similar benefits, like the AHAs actually are pretty complementary.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: PHA is pretty complementary in terms of benefit to um to retinol.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, there are certainly options, but cuchial is an interesting one.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting a lot of um getting a lot of usage.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um there are, you know, these are ingredients.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one we have in, you know, a novel ingredient in development where we're looking at what can can have a similar effect, like in the bioactivity models that I mentioned, um, that's not actually a retinoid, but but that hits all the same kind of triggers that maybe uh that are that retinol would.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think we'll see over time continued use of Bacuchi Allen alternatives like that, and maybe even some new ones coming to the consumers in the future.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's great insight.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Barb.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have much time left, but I just wanted to ask you because of your role as as the lead for innovation in a Veno Clean and Clear Neutrogena, you know, when you look at in a crystal ball, three to five years from now, maybe even 10 years from now, what do you what do you see skincare looking like?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: This OTC mass market skincare, what do you what do you think it's gonna look like?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is is there gonna be more personalization or individualization, or is that just too difficult?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Will AI help with that?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just interested in getting your feedback on that.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a really great question.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think one of the things we'll see is getting closer and closer to individual consumers through real ways to engage with them, real world evidence, showing real pictures of consumers.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like so clinical studies will still be critically important to validate results, but then how can we also bring that to consumers in ways that they see themselves through selfies and things that we might enable through some of the digital applications that we have at our fingertips now?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um AI is a way that we're able to understand our consumers' needs more.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um the Skin360 application that we have scans the skin.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it gives, it analyzes, I think, 2,000 different components, uses AI to be able to assess versus um dermatologist graded images, um, what individual needs might be, and to then allow a personalization approach.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we will only see more of that.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think we'll see more certainly in sustainability and as companies are hitting those ESG goals and um what what might come to the fore.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for innovation in this space from our suppliers and partners in the industry.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then certainly transparency is a huge is a huge trend as well.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like how can we explain science in a way that that um connects with our consumers?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so um we do some of that through our skin you approach that we love, um teaching science and um conveying that in a in a way that our consumers can engage with us.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um taking, you know, taking our scientists and um showing them in the lab and having them talk directly to consumers has really been a lot of fun.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I feel like though it's getting a little closer, like we're getting closer to our consumers and we're able to um make sure we're developing and innovating against their needs more more directly.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh believe it or not, we've run out of time.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: That was just amazing, Barb.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I count you as a friend, but I look up to you so much for what you're doing.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for those of you who who are listening, she she's responsible for billions of dollars worth of sales of skincare in terms of the the management of the current uh uh formulations and innovations.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this is someone who really is leading our industry, and so it's so wonderful for you to to take some time and talk with us.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: We really, really appreciate it, Barb.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's it signing out from this uh episode of Skincare Confidential.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.