Latest / Lab to Lives / Reconnecting with Purpose: Transforming Job Satisfaction and Patient Care in Life Sciences with Jill Donahue

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Reconnecting with Purpose: Transforming Job Satisfaction and Patient Care in Life Sciences with Jill Donahue · Lab to Lives

• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Transformation in Trials.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: This is a podcast exploring all things transformational in clinical trials.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Nothing is off limits on the show and we will have guests from the whole spectrum of the clinical trials community, and we're your hosts, ivana and Sam.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Transformation in Trials.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to focus on the topic of why purpose matters in life sciences, and for this I have Jill Donoghue in the studio with me, who is an author, speaker, a teacher and passionate about changing the life sciences industry for the better.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Jill, can you tell us a little bit more about your background and why you're so passionate about this space?
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks, ivan.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Thanks for inviting me to chat with you today.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: My story goes back quite a ways.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: When I first joined the industry.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I came in with a background in psychology and noticed that everyone around me was really, really strong in the life sciences.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: That muscle, if you would, is really toned.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: But the other muscle, the behavioral science muscle, was not as well worked, and that was my fascination.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: So I started thinking, gosh, if both arms were equally strong, boy, could we do some good pushups in the industry.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Right, if our people you know the behavioral science skill of communicating in a way that would engage the person in front of them.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: So I did my.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: I studied this and did my master's in adult education with focus on influencing healthcare behavior change and, and was really fascinated learning about this.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: And then, when I was 35 things we had a tragedy in our family, and that was my father died as a result of a prescribing error, and so, being in pharma, I thought you know what if?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: What if dad's doctors rep, msl, cam, whomever?
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: What if they had been better at that behavioral science muscle?
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: What if they had been better able to engage and communicate, earn the trust and collaborate with the healthcare team?
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So they would have known the right product for the right time for the right patient.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: So this was super frustrating.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I left Big Pharma two years after that because I kept researching it.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: It drove my research.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Really, you know.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: You asked why that drove my research, trying to figure this out.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: And then I left Big Pharma because I thought I've got to teach this to people.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I've got to let my peers know that there's a better way for us to build trust, engagement, communication and actually collaborate.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: So I wrote a couple of books and then people started asking me to speak on global stages around the world, which was great.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: We started a nonprofit group called the Aurora Project to measure our path to patient centricity, because that's what I realized is foundational to all of our ability to do better is to be focused on the patient, and I started talking about this.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Before patient centricity was a term, but that's what it's evolved into.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: People wonder what that means, but the base of it for me is a mindset of being focused on what we are doing to help the patient.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: So I I tried to figure out how to communicate that to people, how to help people articulate their own connection to the purpose.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: You know, work, work isn't just a J-O-B but it's so much more, and that's where the Power of Purpose comes into play.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: We created a program many years ago now that has been, people say, transformational for them, and it is the work of my life.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I just love, love, love, helping people connect with literally the power of their purpose.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: So that was sort of a long answer to your question of why, but did I?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: No, absolutely, and this is also how I encountered your work in the first place.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: It is exactly what you're referring to there, and when I saw it, I was like, wow, this is exactly what our industry needs.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad, I'm so glad.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Was it the book?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: We just published a book.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: It was the book.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yeah, called A Dose of Inspiration, where we, you know, sort of like you, I get all these amazing conversations with people and I would go into my kitchen at the end of the day and say, oh my gosh, you won't believe this story or this story.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And then I this with more people.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: So we put together this book and and I really loved this perspective on that that many of us who are in the life science industry we do connect somewhat personally to, to why we are pursuing exactly this space.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was at a dinner with a bunch of biotech startups the other day where we did kind of around the table of how did we end in this space.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: All of us and everyone had some personal story to share of disease or clinical trials or something else that happened in their life that led them on the path, and I think that's unique to our industry.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: People come here because they want to be in this space.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, indeed, and then sometimes over the days, weeks, months, years, reorganizations, restructurings, sometimes that focus on that why gets lost.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: And to the point where you know, some studies say 90% of people are not connected to their purpose at work, to the meaning.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Wow, 90% of people are not connected to their purpose at work, to the meaning, yeah, and the US Surgeon General published something last year that said a report last year that said mattering at work matters, basically that that is key to our mental health, and sometimes and maybe some of the listeners, this will make sense to you you sort of lose track of right, this is why I'm here, this is why this work matters and why it's meaningful to me that.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: That makes that is a staggering statistic.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: 90 percent, right, yeah, that's most of us.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: That's exactly.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: And I think the thing is, ivana, that people want to be purpose-driven, but but it's sort of you know.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: You know, smiling takes more muscles than frowning.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Right, being purpose-driven actually takes some effort and some work, because it's so easy to just fall into the rut.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It does take some effort but the the outcomes, the benefits of it are really really amazing and very measurable, and there's lots of research out there that measures that says you know the best teams, the best organizations.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Why are they that way?
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Because they're purpose driven.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I could also imagine that, especially in our industry, where many of us take small decisions on an everyday basis that can potentially impact the end products and how we engage with the patient and the drug itself, the safety of it, how we choose to deliver it, small choices in manufacturing.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Do we release this?
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Do we not release this?
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Do you think there's a tangible difference that can be made whether a person is feeling connected to purpose?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, I don't just think so, I know so really.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: There's so much evidence out there, um, you know examples like um, people reading x-rays uh, if they see the picture of the patient will do a better job.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: They'll find things.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of research from behavior scientists like Adam Grant.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: He's done a lot of research in this area to prove that it is so.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: When people are connected to the purpose, they do better work.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: I mean I see it in the teams that we work with.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I mean I see it in the teams that we work with.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: The change in the collaboration, the trust, the enthusiasm, the energy, the grit, the perseverance All these things improve when people are connected on the purpose and when they see that the other people are as well.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: It just changes everything.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: But absolutely, without a doubt, I believe that we would need much less.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: You know we have very high rules and I think we need less of the rules and just let people be guided by what they know to be true.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: When they're purpose driven, when they're focused on what's best for the patients, the creativity comes in for how we're going to do the clinical trials right, how we're going to make it more friendly for patients, how we're going to do the clinical trials right, how we're going to make it more friendly for patients, how we're going to include them.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: When we have that mindset, that's when the creativity and the innovation comes through.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, there's and that's the other thing about this.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: It sounds like it's very soft.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: You know behavioral science and purpose, but the amount of evidence behind it it's so funny because you know, everyone we work with is so evidence-based in the life sciences and I just say, well, get evidence-based in the behavioral sciences too and match them up, and it's just so powerful.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: No, I completely agree.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I would be curious to dive a little bit into this.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: In life sciences, we do have a lot of rules, we have a lot of regulation that we need to adhere to.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: And you're saying now that if we in fact were purpose-driven, we might not need the rules.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: But how did we end up with all these rules in the first place?
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think there's.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: You know, we made a lot of mistakes in the nineties we talk about there's an elephant in the room when we talk about why we need the rules and that's trust.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Right, that little but very big word, trust, uh.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: And in the 90s we could, you know, talk for hours about what happened.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: But we can just summarize it to say if anyone has seen the movie wall street and the gordon gecko character in there, he has a famous line that says greed is good, and that that was the thinking led by some writing by Milton Friedman.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Frankly, that was the thinking of that decade.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Breed is good and that's when we, you know, increase the number of reps like a nuclear arms race.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And we made a lot of mistakes, admittedly.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Then that was depicted by Hollywood too, in the movie Love and Other Drugs, if anyone saw that one and other movies.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, society does a good job of depicting all our mistakes, for sure.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: But so we made those mistakes, so trust was broken.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: And then came many, many rules and regulations, which I'm all for, you know, ensuring patient safety, obviously, patient safety, obviously.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: And I think that we can help people make better choices if they're inspired with the literally again, the power of their purpose when they're inspired by connecting to the meaning in their work and who they're doing this for.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: That one decision that ultimately will impact a patient right will be a better decision when you're thinking about that patient at the end of it.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: That makes total sense.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: We as an industry is there.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: It is easy to put regulation in place.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Well, relatively, if you can agree on the regulation.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: It is hard to take regulation away and loosen things up again.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: What do you think we as an industry need to do to potentially deregulate some of these things?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that deregulation is going to be in our near future, but I think we can improve the adherence to what we know is important by helping people find the meaning.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: To help people be more patient, focused, more purpose driven.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: I think we can improve is this where we're at finding our purpose.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Is that an individual activity, or can it also be a company-wide or team activity, such a good question.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Um, interestingly, sometimes people say, well, you know my team or my boss or my, you know they're not really like that, so I can't.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: And I always say you know, yes, it would be lovely if, being purpose driven and patient focused, started at the C-suite and trickled down.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: That's ideal.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And it can start with you as an individual, because you as an individual represent your organization to the rest of the world, right, whether it's internal or external, you represent your team.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: So it can start with you.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: And I have a great story of Johnny Johnson, the bus driver, and he was very purpose-driven, despite the fact that his manager was not, and he's sort of.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: He's a great picture and you probably have met Johnny Johnson's in your life too and maybe I can just share the story with you.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, please do he.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: I met him.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I was on a shuttle bus, so we had dropped off our rental car at the airport and then you know he drives that shuttle bus around and around and around all day long and we got on the shuttle bus and his voice boomed over the loudspeaker.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: It is my privilege to serve such an esteemed group of people today and we all kind of smiled, like normally.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: You know quiet passengers now are like what's going on.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: And he, by the end of our little route, he had us all smiling and happy and and I got off the shuttle bus.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I said, johnny, where do you get this great energy from?
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I just love that.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, I had a choice to make.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: So what's that?
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, when I came here, it was in Phoenix in the US.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: He said, when I came here from my home country with my master's degree, I had a choice to make.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: What was going to be my purpose here.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: So was it going to be just driving around or could it be something bigger?
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: He said I decided it was going to be to make people happy.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: And I said wow.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: I said so you go home with a smile on your face.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: You put these smiles on our faces.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I said do you make more money than the other guys?
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: He says yeah, I said.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: He said I make a hundred bucks a day.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: And I said he said I make a hundred bucks a day.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: And I said what do the other guys make?
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: He said 40.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I said so you more than doubled your tips by having this purpose-driven mindset, despite what was going on around you.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and he said one day I made 500, it was my birthday.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I said, oh my gosh.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And then he said and this was sort of the key to everything here he said but you know what he said, people are smart.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: It has to come from here, yeah, and he put his hand on his heart and I said that's my whole workshop.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Right, this has to be authentic.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: We can't put this on right.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: It has to authentically come from inside you people need to connect with.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Remember back to why.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Why can this work be meaningful?
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Maybe it was at one time.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I work with a lot of um health care professionals who have come into pharma and had to go through the oh, you know you left academia, or you know phds, or you left academia and you went to the dark side, or you left practice and you went to the dark side, right, right.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And I find it really sad for them that they fall into that.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And when I see them pump back up, you know they stand taller and more proud because they reconnect with their why, like, why did you get into healthcare in the beginning?
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: And now, how does that translate to your work in pharma now?
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: That why is still there.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Do you want to pause for that airplane?
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: No, it adds some texture, it's fine, I love your attitude.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't have to be perfect, it's okay if it's imperfect.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: It's about the conversation.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love the attitude of the driver you just mentioned.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: That makes a big difference and that is a choice we can all make, like whether we're in quality, or we are in manufacturing or we're in sales.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Any role yeah, ivana, exactly.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: So any role.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, ivana, exactly so any role.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I say, you know, from the person at the front door to the person on the top floor, any role.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: We are all working to ultimately change people's lives, right, to improve patient lives, and whether it's in your leadership or not, it can be how you choose to see things.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: It is so fantastic when a whole team connects around the power of the purpose and they realize oh, my gosh, yvonne, I've worked with you for 20 years and I never knew that.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: And now I'm more inclined to assume best intent, I'm more inclined to forgive, I'm more inclined to reach out.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Right, we get this amazing collaboration.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: People play better in the sandbox and, gosh, the patients need us to play well on the sandbox together.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Right, it also changes.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: You know you, you mentioned reps Like it changes when people are out there trying to collaborate externally to say, hey, I know you might have a stereotype of me because you know they do, but hey, I just want to give you a minute to share with you why I'm here.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: You know, here's just a little bit of my story, of why I care so much.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Oh, and any of your listeners that give presentations.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: It's amazing at the front of the presentation no-transcript.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: You know, I pursued a PhD in biochemistry because of X, y, z and now I love using that expertise to take that information and whatever it is that is the point of their talk.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: It totally changes.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: The first 30 seconds of a presentation will make or break the engagement in your audience and it better not be your disclosure.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Slide by the way, which I know it always is.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Slide by the way which I know it always is.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: But rather, why not start with?
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I'm here, what my intentions are, why this matters to me.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's a great, a great tip and again, finding that that comes from the heart, something that's made you embark on this journey yes, and maybe it's something that keeps you on this journey, you know.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Some people say, you know, I joined Farmer twice at once, when it was just at JLB, because, frankly, the remuneration package was great for the lifestyle I wanted.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: People will say, and then boom, then you know.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Some people would say, you know, it was the first hug I had from a patient, you know.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Or when I first saw the you know patient on first hug I had from a patient, you know.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Or when I first saw the you know patient on stage talking about the impact of the work we're doing.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: You know, whatever it is, you know, that journey evolves.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So there might have been your original reason to go into science, your original reason to go into pharma, and then maybe other experiences that have happened that bring meaning, yeah, and joy to your work yeah, that that makes sense.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: um, we've had, we've done, uh well, four seasons of transformation trials.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Now we're recording for season five.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Now, um and a lot of um.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Part of the reason why sam and I started this podcast originally was to investigate, well, both what kind of transformation is happening in life sciences, but also what is holding it back, and so far we have found a general trend that actually there are a lot of solutions to many of the problems we have in life sciences.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: What is holding it back is mainly, you can say, the human system within our organizations, within life sciences, but also in society more broadly, and that kills me a little bit, because that is fixable.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: We could do it differently, we can change that, and I feel like what you and I are talking about now if we went back and connected with well, what is it that we're actually trying to achieve?
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: We're trying to cure patients, we're trying to.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: We're trying to cure patients, we're trying to help manage diseases.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: How have we lost that, both as an industry but also on an individual level, because we're also a very profit oriented industry.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: But we're more than that and we can be more than that.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Well, and they go together.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I never separate them because actually patient centricity leads to profitability.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: So I have this image in the workshop that I teach and it's the growth of a tree.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: So there's a seed and then like a very small sapling, then a larger sapling, then a fruit bearing tree, and so four stages here.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And then I say you know, I've talked about four things.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I've talked about profitability, I've talked about engagement, trust and patient centricity.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Which one comes first in this growth?
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: And you know what people will, what would you guess would come first in the growth of the tree?
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: so there was engagement, trust, patient centricity or patient focus, and um profit I would guess people guess trust yes, they do good for you.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And then I say, yes, if we had that seed we could drop it, but we, it fell out of the hole in our pocket in the 90s, didn't it it?
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: did.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, we lost the trust seed, so we don't have that seed to plant.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: What seed do we have to plant?
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Patient focus, yes, right, so we plant the seed of patient focus that grows into trust.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Trust is what empowers us or enables us to engage, that engagement that we can have with each other, that engagement with each other, that collaboration with each other, that then creates the fruit bearing tree, the profitability, the seed, the drop from the tree, and that gives us more patient focus.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: So and again, you know that's a simple way of summarizing some incredible research out there.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: So amazing research out there and I can share with you references afterwards that says the most profitable companies are the ones that are purpose driven.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: In fact, albert Bordeaux, ceo of Pfizer, in his amazing book Moonshot that he wrote about the journey to the vaccine development, covid vaccine development, he said you know, do you think it was the amazing technology?
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Nope.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Was it the amazing science?
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Nope.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: He said what was key to the success was the purpose-driven culture, purpose-driven culture.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: There's just so many stories and so much evidence that that is what produces winning teams and more profitable teams.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: So people who think patient centricity and profitability are at odds, they are completely connected.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's when we have this mindset of patient centricity that we actually will be our best and our most profitable.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: It's a beautiful cycle.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: It definitely is.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: And I think this also touches upon well, you mentioned in the beginning the behavioral science element that in life sciences we focus a lot on you can say the natural sciences, we believe a lot in that, but somehow as an industry I often experience we overlook the behavioral sciences Exactly.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that dynamic is?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Well, we have a certain academic path in our industry, don't we?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: A lot of people in our industry go through the life sciences, the natural science path and perhaps never take a, a behavioral science course, right?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So, and we value that, uh, academically, we value that.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Our industry, um, and and that's something that I'm trying to change is to say, hey, look over here, there's some amazing research that we can learn from.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: To take that amazing life science, combine it with some behavioral science so that we can have our best engagement and collaboration.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great, great point.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: It's more about thinking science in general, I think, because there is science in all disciplines and we should not be winging things where we actually have data and where we have.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I love how you said that Exactly.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't be winging it because there is data and proof.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: But so many of the scientists and the people in clinical trials, for example, who are trying to communicate it, they're not familiar with the behavioral science for how to communicate it.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: I was just listening to your episode with Matt talking about even if the letter is written by a man to a woman, it's not going to be as effective in engaging them in the clinical trial.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Do you remember that episode?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely yeah, applying some of the behavioral science to engaging the patients.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Lots of evidence behind that.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: I do want to talk more about.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about the way that we engage with doctors in our industry, that we have this model, which is still at least every company I've ever been in this is the main way we interact with our prescribers is that we have this field force that visits doctors and talks about the drugs and hope to get more prescriptions that way.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I'm curious, when you think about purpose and when you think about this broken trust, how does that manifest in that interaction?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Love that question, yeah, so I've always thought, and I've been advocating, that we need to stop calling doctors our customers or even patients our customers.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I think we're all partners in improving health care and that we need to approach our engagement with these people as a partnership.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I'm here to help you find the right product, right time for the right patient, not here to promote my product.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of language I want to change in our industry.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Promote my product, my product, product.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: This is a patient treatment option and this is my competitor.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I hate that expression.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, my competitor's product does this and my product does this.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: When we change our language, and that will be based on the mindset right, because when we go in there with that purpose-driven mindset, it's not my competitor's product about me getting a sale no, no, no, no.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I'm here to help you look at the treatment options because I have some expertise in this.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I've been able to do a very deep dive in this one area.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Doctor, I know you have to do deep dives or shallow dives in all of the areas, right, but I've got this very deep dive in this one area.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: So I want to and they might not even know what product I'm representing, right, because I'm there as an expert in this disease state and the behavioral science around engaging the patient in the follow-up, in the diagnosis, in the treatment options of areas.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I want to come as the expert, as the pharma person expert I hope we stop calling them sales reps, right?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, that might be yeah, and that might be leaning in the trend towards more msl type roles and less sales type roles.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: It's somewhere in them, you know, and then people are struggling with well, we're not selling.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Well, please tell me you're trying to engage them.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Please tell me you're going to be an expert in engaging the doctor, right?
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: It's not enough to just say here's the science, there, I've taught them the science.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: That is so not enough.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Right, finding out what their challenges are, what their headaches are, how are they diagnosing, how are they following up and providing evidence that will help the physician, the healthcare professional, find a solution.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: So much more in the partnership mindset is the direction I want to see us go.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: That we're here, we have an expertise, you have an expertise.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Let's all come together for the best interest of the uh, the patient at the end.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: I think that also creates a more fulfilling role for the person.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, imagine the difference, if you would, of being in your car.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the sales reps.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Uh, being in your car and thinking, oh, this doctor doesn't want to see me and I've got to go in there because I've got to make another call, I've got to have six calls and, uh, if I mention my product six times, they'll remember it and maybe they'll say you know, and I'm going to go bother them and you know, I don't want to go in versus the mindset of.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: I know from my research that there are X number of patients in this area that are undiagnosed and untreated and they're at home suffering with A, b and C.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Right, I got to go in there to help that doctor.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Know, this is what that patient might look like and here are the ways that that patient will best be treated.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So now I'm sort of an advocate for that patient.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Right, I'm going in there because I'm picturing those patients in my mind and I'm going to go in there and do my best to help.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: What a difference, right, when you go home at the end of the day with that energy.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Huge difference, yeah, and also, like from the medical side of things, I think that there's a difference between science and fact-based communication and and the lack of passion, like we can be passionate about the science the passion about the science and about its impact on patients.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, and I think there's this misunderstanding that, oh, my job is just to communicate the science, or just to tell them, versus engage the minute right, but it's that taking it the next step to that?
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: How how does this make a difference?
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: What is the impact of this?
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: That is the the key.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: It's not because they can I mean the internet's right there, they can find all the science they need on there.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: It's that collaboration and the problem solving exactly difference for patients an article online will not help you problem solve it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: It can inform you, but it will not help you.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and that's why I want to get you know myself away from thinking that they're just there to inform.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Rather, they're there to engage and problem solve, move things forward that way.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also I imagine it could take some pressure off the person in the field thinking well, I'm here as the expert, I'm here to well, I'm here as the expert, I'm here to help, I'm here to engage.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not here to convince or force anyone to do anything.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: It goes back to language, doesn't it?
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: How we think of things comes out in the words we use, yeah.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: And that is interesting and would be a big shift, I think, both for mending that lack of trust, if we weren't the experts.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: We're just the people who, as you said, have dove in deep into a topic.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: We know a lot about that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: We bring that in an engaging way.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: That's very different than our product, is better than the competitors.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, isn't it, though?
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Isn't it though?
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much competitors?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, isn't it, though?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Isn't it though?
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think about presentations, you know, at all associates meetings, and it needs to start from that stage.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Right, how we talk about instead of just the market share and all those numbers are just so mind numbing for people.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: But when you translate that, you can still use the same numbers, but translate it into the patients versus the market share.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: It changes things for people.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, language at all levels would be a big way of improving things.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: That would be a big change.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, Jill, what are you most excited about that you're currently working on?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Oh lovely.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm super excited about the book being out.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: As I said, you know, I felt like it was not enough to just share these stories at my dining room table, but what if we could get them out there?
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: So the book is free as a free download.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: We're trying to spread it as far and wide as possible.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: It features a hundred purpose-driven leaders in our industry, their stories.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I tried to do it from different countries, different roles, different departments, different.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Tried to do it from different countries, different roles, different departments, different.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so quite a variety.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: So you can download it for free and I'll send you the link, my website accelerate with the exaccelerateca slash free book and then people wanted a hard copy, so we actually now have it on Amazon so people can get a copy.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of cool.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: We make no profit from it, but Amazon does, so it's Amazon's price of printing and their surcharge.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: It's on sale right now, though I noticed they put it on sale, but anyway it's on at Amazon.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: So it's A Dose of Inspiration 100 Purpose Stories from Pharma Leaders and the title is literally what I hope it is is A Dose of Inspiration, either for people who've already been through our program it'll help keep that inspiration up or for people who haven't.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Hopefully it'll get them to start thinking about it, to start thinking about their story.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Um, so, yeah, I'm super excited about that, super excited about bringing our power of purpose to, uh, to more people.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: But, like I said, I I feel like this is what I was meant to do, frankly, um, yeah, I really I know my lifetime isn't long enough to bring it to all 5 million people Someone said is in our industry, but but I'll do my best to light that flame.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: And then other people like it becomes something that they carry forward and so on and so on.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Like that is amazing.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: So I love spreading that fire.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: No, I love that.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: 5 million people, that's actually that's interesting.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: That's the population of Denmark, just in life sciences.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Is that right fire?
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: No, I, I love that.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Uh, five million people, that's actually that's interesting.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: That's, uh, the population of denmark.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Just in life sciences, is that?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: right, there you go in our industry, that is quite a few people, but also that's why it must feel like such a close-knit community, because that is a few enough people that we can actually like.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe you know someone who knows someone, who knows someone, and then we kind of all know each other absolutely, and I feel very positive about this change because I have seen the change in my time.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Like I said, I started talking about patients and trust reasons before.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: It was a word yeah right, this idea of focusing the patient and I've seen tremendous changes.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Well, we have one company we work with and they, they, everyone in the organization goes through the power of purpose and they say when they're out there working with external um partners, they'll say you know, we work with 17 companies in this space, but none of them do we trust more than you.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: They have tangible differences.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: We see differences and, whether it's in teams and organizations or entire organizations, I see the impact of this fire.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: I call it a fire of being purpose-driven, patient focused yeah, it is so I'm excited about that.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: I'm excited about how that will change health care.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Frankly, I'm excited about how that will change things.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know the science that is needed to um, find the cure for alzheimer's, like I that is needed to find the cure for Alzheimer's Like I desperately want them to find right.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, but I do believe that my way of helping is to inspire people to be driven by meaning and purpose.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how I'm hoping to make my difference.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: That's the perfect segue for the question that we always ask our audience.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: In the end, we don't ask our audiences.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: We ask this of our guests our guests.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, you should ask the audience perhaps yes, there we go, just had another idea, another book so, joe, if I gave you the transformation Magic Wand and this magic wand can change one thing in the life sciences industry what would you wish for?
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: I bet you know.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: I bet you know what it's going to be.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: If I had a magic wand, I would wave it at every person and say and to help them light that fire inside, to connect with their purpose.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's not as easy as a magic wand.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: You know we've created this journey.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: That takes several steps, but man is it worth it.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: But yeah, if I could bottle that up into a magic wand, that's what it'd be, because when people have that, that connection to their purpose and it's so tangible, it's so right there in our industry, right, because we do such good work I mean, anyone can find this wherever they work, but it's so right there in our industry.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: So if I could wait that magic wand and help people light that fire, gosh, that'd be pretty special.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: I think that would change a lot, that a lot of people's lives, their happiness when they go home, as well as the people they work with and the patients they ultimately touch, their company, bottom line everything.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that would be a really big magic wand, that would be really good.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: That would be a ripple throughout the whole space.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: And meanwhile, without the magic wand, I'll just keep plodding along working on it and talking about it and continue to publish books and talk to people like you and thank you again for showcasing this important topic of of purpose and patient centricity.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Really appreciate it and I love the work you do and you know what you.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: What I didn't get from you was that I want to know, like you are driven right doing this podcast, for example, on top of everything else that you do.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Where does that come from for you?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: well, yeah, that's.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: That's a great question.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: So for me, um, first of all, I feel like this is my second life.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Um, as a child I had, I had cancer and survived that, and feel like somehow this is my second chance.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: So, whatever I do in life, it needs to, it needs to matter, like so that's it.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: That's kind of the first purpose.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: And then growing, yeah, and the good thing about almost having died once is that, well, it's not so scary anymore, like what is a little bit of resistance or what is a big challenge?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Well it's.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: it's nothing compared to that wow, okay, I have goosebumps on my whole body.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: I just I knew from the when I met you just a few weeks ago that there was a great story behind there, and that is it right there.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I totally get it.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: It sounded like you were about to add something else to that.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then my very specific experience with life sciences was as a teenager.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: I had a family member who got Crohn's disease and kind of and went through several clinical trials because there was no treatment that was working.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: And I kind of saw, well, both the the incredible benefits of experimental treatment but also like all the frustration of the patient experience in a clinical trial, and I thought maybe arrogantly, as like in my late teens well, you know what.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I think I can help make this better.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: And look at what you're doing just a few years later now.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Right A couple of years later.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my gosh, I knew it.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I knew there was an amazing story in there.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy to to hear how you're using your life, like what you're doing with you know, the fifth season here of this podcast on top of your other work is just amazing.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, driven to change, driven I'm with you for solving and changing this industry.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: There's so much more we can do that can benefit so many more people yes, yes to that, and let's keep finding people who are doing it and showcasing them, like you are.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the amazing work that you're doing and using your life so like you are.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the amazing work that you're doing and using your life so well for positive change and impacting so many lives that you'll never know Impacting so many lives with the ripple effect of your work.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you, jill, and it's been an absolute pleasure having this conversation and I hope it does inspire people to find that purpose within themselves.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, if our listeners want to reach out to you, ask more questions and follow-ups where can they find you?
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Sure, linkedin is the only social media I'm on, so chill down if you want LinkedIn.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: And then our website, accelerateca Like excellence and acceleration come to mind.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Accelerateca and yeah, very happy to hear from anyone.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: I love finding other like-minded, purpose-driven people or people who want to to bring that to their, their team, to their lives.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Happy to connect and I can send you some resources that you can provide, some, some references and stuff that you can put.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: And if you do that sort of thing, yes, we'll put them in the show notes so people can access them.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, that would be great.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, jill.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: This has been absolutely wonderful, it's so great connecting with you, ivana.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: You made my day.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you, take good care.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Transformation in Trials.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: If you have a suggestion for a guest for our show, reach out to Sam Parnell or Ivana Rosendahl on LinkedIn.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: You can find more episodes on Apple Podcasts, spotify, google Podcasts or in any other player.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Remember to subscribe and get the episodes hot off the editor.