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Female Firsts: Elizabeth Catlett · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I've never told you production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And it is time for another edition of Female First,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: the last of twenty twenty five, which means that we
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: are once again thrilled to be joined by the brilliant,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: the brainy Eves.
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  Speaker 3: Welcome ees, I like Brany, Thank you Brandy. That's fun.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, I'm mixing up. It's very before. I don't
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  Speaker 3: know why I was just giving like WB cartoons. I
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: don't know that is what I just thought. Yes, that
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  Speaker 3: should have scared me.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: It should. I think it was we are all of
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: our cartoons were a little bit eccentric, like you realize that.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we my brothers for some reason, probably because I
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: was a pushover, they got to choose what cartoons we
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: watched in the morning, and they would choose like Pinky
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: in the Brain, all these cartoons that just scared me,
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  Speaker 2: and I'd go to school like a little unseppled.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Is it because a rat was trying to take over
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: the world?
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  Speaker 3: Maybe I think it was more just vibes.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think it had a feeling to it, and
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  Speaker 2: the animation style was kind of just started out.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: It was dark, yeah, writ and stimpy Pinky and the Rain.
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  Speaker 1: I think this is where we are, like why adults
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  Speaker 1: swim in those cartoons and then things like Bob's Burgers
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  Speaker 1: all that are so like a part of our lives
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  Speaker 1: and so popular in our in our generation because of
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: stuff like that because it was cartoon but with adult
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  Speaker 1: meaning that we did not understand.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, where is this longitudinal study on how those impacted
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: our psychology? Though?
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  Speaker 1: Like?
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  Speaker 3: What is what? What was the effect of those?
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  Speaker 1: Deep dive?
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  Speaker 3: He should?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I would love I bet someone has looked into it,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: because there was a very particular aesthetic, and even the
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: educational ones like do you do you all remember hysteria?
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: It was like a hysteros.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I don't remember that one. I might be getting the
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: name wrong, but it was history. It was a history show, okay,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and it was kind of like animaniacs. I didn't like
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  Speaker 2: that one either. I didn't like it either.
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  Speaker 3: It sounds like that sounds like a.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Deep cut ny I didn't sounds vaguely familiar, but I
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: can't quite remember it. That's gonna be something that we
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: have to look down the road.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Sorry.
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  Speaker 2: I actually frequently end up talking about old cartoons with
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: random people.
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  Speaker 3: So here we are.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, well, Eves, how have you been What have you
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  Speaker 2: been up to?
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  Speaker 3: I've been good for the most part. I've been pretty good.
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  Speaker 3: It's hard not to be good when you're in such
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: lovely surrounds. I am in Cape Town now because I
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: live here now, so I get to see I get
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: to see these beautiful mountains every day and the day
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  Speaker 3: a long. Hey, I think you know, that's one thing
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  Speaker 3: that's really helping me out, because I think I do
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: have a tendency to get some seasonal depression, and I'm
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: living that what do they call it chasing the sun?
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: It has another name. I feel like I'm living that
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: life where I get to pretend I'm like those rich
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: people who like go from like where it's cold, and
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  Speaker 3: they're like, I don't want to be here because it's
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: cold warm and it's snowburts, and then it's about to
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: be old there and they go to the other place
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  Speaker 3: where it's warm. So uh, I faked my you know,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: fake it till you make it. I left the gold
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: of where I was and came here to the warmth. Actually,
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  Speaker 3: I was in India right before this, and that was
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  Speaker 3: a great time as well. Loved it there, can't wait
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  Speaker 3: to go back. But but here, yeah, long to be
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  Speaker 3: experiencing the exact opposite of what my body usually experienced.
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  Speaker 3: Is at this time, which is the longest day of
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  Speaker 3: the year, and it being very warm right now. I
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  Speaker 3: think it's very good for my for my psyche, for
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: my general health, for my mental health, for all of it.
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  Speaker 3: So it's definitely helping me out here. So I'm grateful
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  Speaker 3: for it. I love that.
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  Speaker 1: And I will tell you, just like in the zoom call,
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  Speaker 1: you are glowing from the sunlight behind you, so you
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: look that as well, so it's beautiful.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Thank you. I have to say, I think my skin
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: took a hit while I was in New Delhi, so
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  Speaker 3: I think I've been recovering since I got here. Be
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  Speaker 3: real about that. Like I got to the city and
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: I'm I like cities a lot, but like New Delhi
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  Speaker 3: is the citiest of all the cities, the city city
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  Speaker 3: high city with the capital t top tier, and I
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: think like that definitely took a toll on my scan.
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  Speaker 3: So I've recovered in this a few weeks that I've
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  Speaker 3: been here so far, So thank you for noticing.
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  Speaker 1: That descriptor of the city was really on point.
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  Speaker 3: I mean it.
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  Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, okay, I will say here in
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  Speaker 1: Georgia as is gloomy and dry for the first time
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  Speaker 1: at the same time humid. My face is not loving
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  Speaker 1: it either. I'm like, I'm filling that. But maybe it's
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  Speaker 1: just this again, the seasonal thing with all the depression
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  Speaker 1: is just adding to my face.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, y'all had a cold snap there recently.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, we're slowly coming out of it.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, today it is rainy and very dark. I
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  Speaker 2: actually like the rain, but I hate when I have
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  Speaker 2: to work during I like to like watch it out
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  Speaker 2: my window.
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  Speaker 1: She likes to be a part of the Emo moment staring.
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  Speaker 3: At in the rain. You know, I was an EMO kid.
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  Speaker 1: I know.
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  Speaker 3: I was like, what video was that with Hillary Duff?
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  Speaker 3: Was that? Come clean? Were she's staring out at the
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  Speaker 3: window with the rain drops on it?
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  Speaker 1: You have.
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  Speaker 3: The poster child of emo. Okay, clearly you see what
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  Speaker 3: were my mind go?
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  Speaker 2: Where?
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  Speaker 3: What kind of kid I was? I didn't have a face.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's just say even when it's dark, is still
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  Speaker 1: not dark? Going than that?
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  Speaker 3: I love that for you.
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  Speaker 1: But also, Hillary Duff just came out with a new
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  Speaker 1: album not too long ago.
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  Speaker 3: You are she could be emo in that. I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: I think she said it was for her queer fans
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  Speaker 1: are gay fans. She was like, this is for my
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  Speaker 1: gay friends, This is for y'all.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, okay, everybody get one. I guess I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's gay emo people who would also love
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  Speaker 1: a gay emo band.
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  Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, you know. I'm not familiar with her work,
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  Speaker 2: but I know people of all kinds enjoyed it.
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  Speaker 3: So oh this is gone left.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know how how we got from old cartoons
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  Speaker 3: to Hillary Duff, but it's a natural progression, I think.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I am very excited to talk about who you
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  Speaker 2: brought today, Eves. I was looking at some I always
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  Speaker 2: love when I get to look at art when we're
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  Speaker 2: doing these, and I was just really enjoying looking at
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  Speaker 2: the art.
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  Speaker 3: So who are we talking about today? Today? We're talking
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  Speaker 3: about Elizabeth Catlett, and I have to say, I am
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  Speaker 3: so excited to talk about her. I'm truly excited. I
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  Speaker 3: am biased, and I love when we get to talk
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  Speaker 3: about people and artistic mediums here in general, too, So
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  Speaker 3: there is that, but I just love her story. It
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  Speaker 3: is one of lots of reinvention and her having going
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  Speaker 3: into a lot of different directions, and I really appreciate
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  Speaker 3: that about her story. But I also love being able
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  Speaker 3: to look at her art work because it is really marvelous.
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  Speaker 3: So anybody who gets a chance to see anything in
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  Speaker 3: person or you know, check out stuff peruse Elizabeth Catlet's
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  Speaker 3: work online, please do so. But her first is that
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  Speaker 3: she was the first woman to get an mfan sculpture
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  Speaker 3: from the University of Iowa, and she was the first
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  Speaker 3: woman sculpture professor at the National School of Fine Arts
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  Speaker 3: at the National Autonomous University of Mexico. So she had
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  Speaker 3: a couple of first and she had a very long
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  Speaker 3: and illustrious career which I'm looking forward to talking about.
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  Speaker 3: So Elizabeth was born on April fifteen, nineteen fifteen, in Washington,
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  Speaker 3: d c. Her grandparents were enslaved, and as a child,
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  Speaker 3: she heard stories of her great great grandmother, who had
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  Speaker 3: been pregnant when she was kidnapped from Madagascar and enslaved
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  Speaker 3: in the United States. She had also heard about her
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  Speaker 3: grandmother's enslavement and how her grandparents learned to read and write. Unfortunately,
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  Speaker 3: her father died some months before she was born. He
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  Speaker 3: had been a math professor at Tuskegee and he taught
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  Speaker 3: in the public school system in DC. He also had
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  Speaker 3: artistic side, so he was a musician and a wood carver.
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  Speaker 3: Her mother, on the other hand, was a truant officer.
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  Speaker 3: She also helped support the family that way, and Elizabeth
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  Speaker 3: had two older siblings, so it was very early on.
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  Speaker 3: Clearly she already had in her parents' role models in
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  Speaker 3: people who cared about education, and they cared about the
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  Speaker 3: arts as well, and Elizabeth knew early on that she
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  Speaker 3: wanted to be an artist. Now, of course, at the time,
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  Speaker 3: this was the early nineteen hundreds, there weren't a lot
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  Speaker 3: of black women who were practicing artists, but this was
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  Speaker 3: still an aim of hers. She ended up graduating from
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  Speaker 3: Dunbar High School in nineteen thirty one, and she applied
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  Speaker 3: to art schools as she was graduating from high school,
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  Speaker 3: and she did end up getting into the Carnegie Institute
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  Speaker 3: of Technology which is now Carnegie Mellon. But she was black,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: which she couldn't help. But she was black, and they
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  Speaker 3: were like, that's not going to fly with us. You're
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  Speaker 3: not getting in, So it doesn't matter how well you
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  Speaker 3: did at your Infrances exams. You're not coming in to
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  Speaker 3: our school. She went to Howard University instead. Great school,
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: so it's like great, she went to Howard University instead,
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  Speaker 3: screw you other people. She studied design, printmaking, drawing, painting,
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  Speaker 3: art history, all of the art things when she was
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  Speaker 3: at Howard, and you can see that there was a
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  Speaker 3: lot of influence for her at Howard and going on
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: to the rest of her artistic and professional life. James
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  Speaker 3: Porter was one of her teachers, and she later said
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  Speaker 3: that he helped her develop the discipline necessary to be
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  Speaker 3: an artist, which is a lot of the battle. So
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: clearly that had an impact on her. So through her
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: education at Howard, she was also surrounded by the artistic
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  Speaker 3: thought that came along with the Harlem Renaissance, surrounded by
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  Speaker 3: a lot of the people who were thinking about concepts
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: that were related to race. So she had the best
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: of both worlds, seemingly. So she was surrounded by all
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  Speaker 3: of this critical thought, all of this artistic thought, and
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: then she had somebody who was helping her with her discipline.
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  Speaker 3: So I could just imagine that there was so much
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  Speaker 3: that was being fomented, so much that was welling up
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  Speaker 3: in her because she was getting the skill and the
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  Speaker 3: aptitude of things, and she was also able to work
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  Speaker 3: through all these different ideas and a lot of them
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  Speaker 3: were competing ideas, not everybody agreed with each other. So
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  Speaker 3: there was Alan Locke who was a philosophy professor at
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  Speaker 3: Howard and he was also an important figure in the
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  Speaker 3: Harlem Renaissance, and he was really about this whole racialism
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  Speaker 3: and art side of things, versus her teacher, James Porter.
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  Speaker 3: Elizabeth's teacher, James Porter, was not so much in that wheelhouse.
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  Speaker 3: He wasn't so much about racializing so much in his art.
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  Speaker 3: So at the same time, Elizabeth herself was drawn to
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: African art and black subjects. But she did say that
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  Speaker 3: wasn't so much about doctor Alan Locke's viewpoints, and it
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  Speaker 3: was more about the fact that there were other artists
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  Speaker 3: that were also focusing on black subjects. And that makes
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  Speaker 3: a lot of sense too, because it's like you're surrounded
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  Speaker 3: by this. This is a lot of what you're seeing.
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  Speaker 3: So she was clearly influenced by that. But yeah, so
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  Speaker 3: she continued school. In nineteen thirty five, she got her
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  Speaker 3: bachelors and she was Kumbloudie and then after school she
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  Speaker 3: moved to Durham, North Carolina, and in Durham, she basically
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: jumped right into education, following in her parents' footsteps. She
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: taught art in the public schools, but you know, as
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: is wont to happen, she wasn't so focused on her
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: own art and she went to grad school at the
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: State University of Iowa later the Universe of Iowa in
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Iowa City. She's like, it's taught for me to get
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  Speaker 3: back to my own art. She was only one of
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: just two black students in the art department there. And
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  Speaker 3: I think if y'all once y'all heard University of Iowa,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: y'all were probably like, yes, she's probably not that many
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  Speaker 3: other black students in the art department there. It's also
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: the early nineteen hundreds, Okay, makes sense. But she it
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  Speaker 3: was actually fortuitous because she made a lifelong friend there.
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  Speaker 3: She had to live in off campus housing because black
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: students couldn't stay in the dorms. The other the student,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: the other black student who was also her roommate, was
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Margaret Walker, and she remained her friend and colleague for
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: the rest of her life. So while she was at
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: the University of Iowa, she was studying drawing and painting.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: And she had this other teacher, Grant Wood, who also
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: left a big mark on her. He was a painter.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: So Elizabeth became interested in sculpture, but her teacher, Grant
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: would He was like, you, you should make what you
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: know and that'll be the best subject of your art.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: So this is how he encouraged her to make art.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: And you'll see this show up in her commentary about
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: her work and in some of the work she did.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: As we'll talk about going forward. She got the first
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Master of Fine Arts degree in sculpture that was awarded
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: at the University of Ioue. At this point, it's her
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: first and then the main piece she had to have
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: an exhibition at the end of her time in the school.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: In her nineteen forty exhibition was a limestone sculpture called
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: Negro Mother and Child. And this is what she said
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: in her thesis statement. She said, to create a composition
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: of two figures, one smaller than the other, so interlaced
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: as to be expressive of maternity, and so compact as
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: to be suitable to stone seemed a desirable problem. The
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: implications of motherhood, especially Negro motherhood, are quite important to
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: me as I am a Negro as well as a woman.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: That's the end of the quote. So she's already getting
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: into kind of a The best subject of your art
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: is what you know about, and it's also a lot
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: of what she was surrounded surrounded by in her actual
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: lived experience, and also a lot of the other art
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: that she was saying what it was representing. So that sculpture,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: she actually sent off a picture to it because this
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: was part of what she needed to be able to graduate,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: basically to be in a national exposition, And she sent
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: off a picture to it and got accepted into the
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: American Negro Exposition in Chicago that summer, and she actually
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: got the first place award in sculpture there, so that
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: was pretty cool. And in the fall of nineteen forty
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: she started teaching at Diller University in New Orleans. She
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: taught drawing, painting, printmaking, art history, and I'm just like
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: you weren't really teaching all the things like you have
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: to be very adept at something to be able to
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: share it with people. And she did all of those
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: things in her practice and in her and in studying
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: and in her she would go on to do in
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: her practice and then she was also sharing all of
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: those with everyone, which is really cool to see, and
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: there are other things we'll talk about it she shared
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: with people. So this story, I love this story in
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: her biography. So she wanted her students to see a
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Picasso retrospective at the Del Gatto Museum, which is now
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: the New Orleans Museum of Art, but it was in
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: a park where black folks couldn't go. So she was like,
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: that's we got to I want them to see this exhibition,
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: so we're going to figure out a way to make
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: it happen, and she did just that. She reached out
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: to another faculty member at Sophie Newcombe College, which was
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: a college for white women, and they were able to
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: get all the students, all of Elizabeth's students, taken or
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: right up to the door of the art museum. It
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: was on a Monday that it was closed to the
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: rest of the people, the rest of the people being
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: the white people, because those are the people who could
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: go there. And so the students all gathered and then
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: they had this person who was there from the college
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: who was able to tell them more about, you know, everything,
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: all the art that was there in the museum. And
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth said that some of the students loved the work
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: and some hated the work, but nobody was bored. I'm
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: just in my head, I picture like in the quote
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: she talks about how they were running from this room
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: to that room, and I just imagined this large group
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: of students super excited. It was the first time for
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: many of them that they had ever even been to
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: an art museum period. And I love art museums. I
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: love being at art museums. They bring me so much
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: comfort and joy, and just to think about like it
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: being their first time and it being in a place
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: where like black people don't even step foot in at all,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: and you have, you know, you have all of these
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: people in the museum for the first time, going our
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: being able to critique it, seeing it up close in person,
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: and having that experience with it. It seems very edifying.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: So onto the summer of nineteen forty one, she's in Chicago.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: She's studying ceramics and lithography there. While she's there, she
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: also meets this guy named Charles White, and she ended
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: up marrying him very soon after that. And there she
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: was also surrounded by this really lively, creative community that
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: was also I think a lot of the people who
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: are listening know a little bit about Chicago at the time.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Very there are a lot of people there who are
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: in the arts, who are socially and politically engaged. And
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: this is a quote from Elizabeth Catlett. She said, we
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: would meet at each other's houses and we would get
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: together socially and discuss things and talk about creative things,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: and people would read things and we would look at
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: each other's work. End quote. So there's this kind of
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: salon situation happening where everybody's talking and sharing ideas and
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: seemingly a very sincere, authentic, natural way. And many of
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: these artists that were around her were dedicated to creating
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: art for social change. Eventually, though, in nineteen forty two,
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth and her husband Charles, they moved to New York
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: and they were connected with I mean all these names
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: names that a lot of names you would know, people
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: like Ernie Krishlowe Langston Hughes, Jacob Lawrence, Gwendolen Bennett, a
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: bunch of other black artists. They started being in circles with,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: and during her first summer there in New York, she
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: also worked with the sculptor name Osip zach Keene, and
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: he had just gotten to New York after leaving Nazi
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: occupation in France, and what he encouraged her to do
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: was work more with abstraction and to look for African
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: art for inspiration. But he kind of had while she
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: was like, I'm making stuff for my people, I'm making
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: the things that I'm used to singing. I'm making art
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: about the things that I'm used to seeing. He was like, no,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: art should be international, Why does it have to be
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: limited to this? She wanted to make work she thought
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: her audience would relate to, so she was focusing on
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: black subjects. So they were kind of there was some
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: friction there between the two of them and that thinking.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: And of course her wanting to focus on black subjects
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: is in line with the advice that she got from
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: her teacher, who we talked about earlier. Grant would so
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth making her own work, you know, working in her
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: own practice, still teaching now, she goes back to teaching
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: at the George Washington Carver School from nineteen forty four
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: until nineteen forty six. I'm going to say I love
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: every part. I'm going to say I love this part
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: A million times in her story because I just her
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: story is really fascinating and I really admire the work
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: that she did. But yeah, so she taught students who
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: had working class day jobs, and she would teach them
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: things like sculpture and sewing. And she was the school's
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: promotion director. I'm not fully sure what that job entailed,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: but she was called the school's promotion director. And she
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: tells stories from her time at school. She talks about
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: how there was a class call it how to make
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: a dress, and there was another one called how to
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: make a Hat that one of her colleagues taught. But
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: when she was talking about the how to make a
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: dress class, she mentioned how this one person looked fabulous
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: in the dress that they made, and she talked about
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: the kind of practical tips that she gave them to
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: be able to sew. So that was that was a
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: cool part of her story. But there is another part
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: of her story where it seems to have functioned as
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: a sort of awakening for her and when it comes
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: to class consciousness. So one day she said there was
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: a professor from Juilliard who came to play a symphony
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: for the students, and the professor invited them to take
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: a break between the first and second movements. He was like,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: all right, I know that was a lot, y'all, go
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: take a break, go drink something. And the students were like, no,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: I don't want to take a break. Let's keep going,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: let's move forward. And Elizabeth had this idea that they
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: weren't interested in classical music. She thought had she thought
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: she was like, I had been ignorant to that fact.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: And these experiences that she had in this school, she said,
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: were kind of a catalyst for the work that she
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: wanted to do. And here's another quote from her. She said,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: I always had a superior feeling to these people. I
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: felt superior to my grandmother, who had been a house slave.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: I thought she should have been a field slave. And
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: I felt superior to my other grandmother, who sowed sacks
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: at the post office in Washington, because she had never
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: gone to school. And then Elizabeth went on to say
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: this as well, and I realized that I had a
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: debt that I hadn't paid, I'd had privileges that they
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: hadn't had. That didn't make me superior, it made me luckier.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: So clearly a moment of humility, she had to humble
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: herself here and just like self awareness for her to
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: be able to admit that to herself and then change course,
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: because I think it's kind of it's pretty relatable to
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: think about in these days too, because I feel like
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: there's so much that I have in twenty twenty five
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: that I take for granted, and it's easy to kind
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: of like lose sight of those things when you have
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: a level of comfort and convenience that comes along with
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: living the way that you do when you grow up,
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: and you know, with a relative amount of privilege. So
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: I appreciated her saying that out loud, and also really
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: interesting to think about from someone who also I mean,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: she was living in the early nineteen hundred. Still, it's
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: not like things were all and roses there either. And
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: she was also already before this pretty aware of what
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: clear I surmise you know, what enslavement meant, because she
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: she'd heard all those stories about her grandparents and great
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: great grandparents. So yet very fascinating thing to hear her say.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: But so her work at the Carver School ended up
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: inspiring her to get a Julius rosenwal Fun Fellowship to
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: produce a series of artworks on black women. Now, she
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: didn't make a lot of progress on that, another moment
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: of being like, I'm doing this teaching stuff, not having
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: so much time for my own things. So here comes
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: a big turn in her life of her going to Mexico.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Nineteen forty six. She and her husband went there. Her
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: marriage wasn't doing so hot at the time, but they
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: went to Mexico. She had become interested in murals and
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: graphic art, and these are a big part of Mexican
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: cultural and artistic history. So she had become interested in
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: the art that was being made there after the Mexican Revolution,
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: and she was really inspired by the art work and
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: how it was so socially engaged, the consciousness that was there,
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: and how accessible it was for everyday people. And her
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: plan was to stay in Mexico City for just a year,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: studying sculpture at a government run school and making prints
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: at the Tayerra de Graphica popular the People's Graphic Arts workshop.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: But what actually happened was that her marriage kind of
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: blew up. She went back to the US to end it, yeah,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: and then ended up going back to Mexico in nineteen
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: forty seven, and eventually she worked toward establishing permanent residents there.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: So another part of her story that I'm like, I
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: was just like, WHOA, that's a big deal, right, Like,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: that's a huge deal. I mean she had already moved
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: different places in the United States and done so many
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: different jobs since she graduated. But yeah, saying I'm going
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: to stay somewhere for a year, and then that going
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: to being I'm no longer with the person I was
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: married to, and I'm going back to that place outside
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: of the country to work on my own art alone
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: at the time now seemingly because it seems like it
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: was pretty quick that she fell in love with someone
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: else and his name was Francisco Mora. A little scandalous, right,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: but he was an artist at the workshop as well,
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: and they ended up getting married very soon, like nineteen
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: forty seven. So her series The Negro Woman that she
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: made from like nineteen forty six to nineteen forty seven
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: is made up of fifteen linoleum cuts with captions, and
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: she pretty much she she immediately ingrained herself in that workshop.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: She immediately started working on art there. She had three sons.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: She had a son board in nineteen forty seven, one
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: born in forty nine, and then another born in nineteen
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: fifty one, and eventually they all became artists themselves too.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: But yes, so you start to see the evolution of
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: her prints that she was doing because she was making
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: a lot, it's a lot of volume here through this workshop.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: At first, these prints that she was creating, they had
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: a lot of harsh lines. Things were pretty angular in
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: the prints, and by the early nineteen fifties they ended
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: up becoming softer and more rounded. And she would make
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: these prints at the workshops in the evening, at the
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: workshop in the evenings, and then on Friday nights she
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: would go to the collective meetings, and so at these meetings,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: because it was a socially engaged workshop, people would come
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: from other organizations asking for images that would support whatever
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: mission that that was critical to them at the time.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: So the people in the workshop, including Elizabeth, would make
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: prints for them to be able to distribute as part
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: of uplifting their causes. And so Elizabeth ended up creating
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: images of working women, laborers, like indigenous children, black mothers,
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: so on, and so forth, all these people that she
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: cared about that she was engaged in their causes, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: she was seeing these movements happened around her in the
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: United States and in Mexico. She herself was politically engaged.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: In nineteen fifty eight, she actually ended up being arrested
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: at a railroad workers protest. So she got arrested at
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: this protest, and the next year, nineteen fifty nine, this
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: is when her next first comes into play. So she
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: was the first woman's sculpture professor at the National School
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: of Fine Arts at the National Autonomous New Recipe of Mexico,
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: and she taught there for many years until nineteen seventy five.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: And she talked about how she was kind of moving
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: through two different worlds in the workshop and then in
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: her work as a professor. Of course, one is more
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: socially engaged, she's making this work for herself, and the
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: other one is her work as an educator. She said,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking differently in the two mediums. In the printmaking,
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking about something social or political, and in the sculpture,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking about form. But I'm also thinking about women,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: black women. And it is clear too that in her printmaking,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: like and across all of these spaces, she was thinking
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: about women and black women. But she sculpted in a
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: lot of different mediums. She sculpted in wood, stone, clay,
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: sometimes she cast in bronze, and she was inspired by
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: African and Prespanic sculpture. She said that she was inspired
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: by black not the female news of the European artists,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: but the women of the African wood carvers and the
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: pre Hispanic stone carvers. And she also even called out
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: the fact that, you know, abstract art was born in Africa.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: So some of that encouragement that she had got earlier
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: in her days about turning to African sculpture as an
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: inspiration for her work still stayed with her, and so
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: she was deeply engaged and rooted in that work. At
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: the same time. You know, like I said, in nineteen
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: fifty eight, she had been arrested for going to this protest.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: So in the United States there was this whole Macarthy era.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: People were super afraid of communism, and the Graphic Arts
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Workshop that she was working with was deemed a Communist
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: front organization, and because Elizabeth was involved with it, the
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: US embassy ended up harassing her throughout the nineteen fifth
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: and they actually banned her from even returning to the
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: United States. In nineteen sixty two, Okay, so not great,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: but also not totally a problem for Elizabeth because in
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty two she became a Mexican citizen. So she said,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: I always got something for y'all. I always know how
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: to turn on a heel and know how to pivot. Okay,
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: nobody's gonna hold me down. She was also, of course,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: not discouraged from, you know, still being uplifting the civil rights,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: black power and other movements that were happening in the
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: United States at the time, and actually in January of
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy her work was featured in an Ebony magazine
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: article called My art Speaks for both my peoples, and
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: of course she's talking about the Mexican people's and her
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: people in the United States, and pretty cool to see
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: how she had really stepped into this new culture in
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Mexico that she had been inspired by before she got there,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: and then when she got there, it was like it
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: seemed like it was one of those things. It was
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: like it was everything I hoped it would be, because
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: you know, you can get somewhere and you're like, I
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: studied all this stuff about Mexican muralism, but when I
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: got there, things weren't feeling the same. Well, clearly what
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: she got was what she needed when she went to
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Mexico and was able to really assimilate and grow in
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: that environment. So yeah, that article in Ebony got her
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: more attention and got her invitations to show her work
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: in the United States, and she kept being denied entry
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: into the United States until nineteen seventy one, where she
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: finally got a visa to go to the opening of
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: her solo show at the Studio Museum in Harlem, which
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: was her first show in the United States since she
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: exhibited her Negro Woman series in nineteen forty seven nineteen
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: forty eight, and that series was later renamed The Black Woman.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: So yeah. She retired from teaching in nineteen seventy five,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: but she didn't stop making work. In nineteen ninety two,
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: she made a series of osset lithographs with her old
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: friend Margaret Walker Alexander, and the prints that she made
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: accompanied text from Margaret's poem for My People. So really
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: nice to see the continuity of their friendship and them
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: being able to collaborate in that way. And she was
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: also still a person of the people and exhibited her
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: work to express that she would show her work in
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: community centers, public libraries, HBCUs, galleries, museums, all types of places,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: so that all types of people could be able to
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: access those shows and enjoy her work. And in two
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: thousand and two she got her US citizenship back and
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: became a dual citizen in the United States in Mexico
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: and Yeah, and continued to make her work. Her son,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: her youngest son, helped her with her sculptures in her
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: later years, and in April of twenty ten, just after
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: she turned ninety five, her sculpture of Mahalia Jackson was
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: unveiled in New Orleans. A lot of public sculptures of
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: hers that were put out, and she died on April second,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: twenty twelve, in Cornovaca, Mexico, when she was ninety six
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: years old. Yeah, and that is the story of Elizabeth Catlet.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad that you shared this with us.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: She does have so many fantastic as you said, like
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: pivots or things that I love that she was clearly
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: developing her ideas and thoughts but was opened to changing
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: or having that kind of moment of humility or things
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: like that. But I do I also love the museum
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: story where she was just determined to share this passion
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: with younger people and knowing that she found a way
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: and she was I also agreeve, So that's just a
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: thinking about that and like the joy and having the
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: critique and being so excited about that. That's just a
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: beautiful moment that she made happen. Yeah, I love it.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And the way she thought about art was that
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: it was a necessary part of education, and there were
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: a lot of people who didn't fully have access to
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: things like museums, So I mean there is a dissonance
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: there was like, Okay, it's a necessary part of education,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: but everybody can't be educated in this way. So it
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: was clear that she was like, what ways can I
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: make this more accessible? And I mean her work, I
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: mean prints and printmaking is one of the most you know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: accessible forms of being able to deliver art to a
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: wide audience in the first place, and is one that
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: so many of us even to this day are familiar
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: with interacting with and is a vehicle for so much
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: propaganda of different different parts of the spectrum, but also
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: like just popular art. And so it's clear that she
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: showed that through that form of her own personal art
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: making and then showed that through like making sculpture for
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: public spaces, but also sculptures of people like like Mahelia Jackson,
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: who is also part of popular culture that a lot
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: of people would be familiar with, and then also just
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: through literally educating people as a professor. So it was
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: like she was able to take that mission and disseminated
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: in all of the parts of her life that she
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: was sharing her art in, which I really appreciate, but
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: just all so I appreciate that like she had a
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: change of heart or change of mind, or she came
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: to a new understanding and she acted on that so
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: quickly and thoroughly comprehensively, and how she shared her art,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: it was like, oh, I've been enlightened, my class consciousness
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: has changed, and so I'm going to so dramatically figure
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: out a way for my lived way of sharing my
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: art to reflect my new consciousness. And I really appreciate
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: that as an artist because it's like it's sometimes you're
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: learning new things all the time, and as an artist,
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: you might want to do new things or do things
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: in a different way, and you're wondering how do I
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: do that? And so to see her enacted so you know,
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: courageously and maybe not fearlessly, I don't know, but in
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: a way that was like, I'm committed to it. I'm
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: committed to the cause of going forth, pressing forward. I'm
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: on the front line and I'm going to get it done.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: And so it's cool to see that part of her story.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, she's definitely the tale of just living life
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: in change. And we've been doing talking about activists who
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: are artists, are people who even call themselves like artivists
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: because we understand things like art does bring a lot
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: of insight and like political change and political shifts, and
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: we know printmaking historically is about rebellion and able to
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: communicate with others, oftentimes in a way that was not
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: a thing previously. So having her doing these things all
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: through her life as a part of teaching as well
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: as spreading, as well as understanding the importance behind its phenomenal,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Like that's her life story, is bringing about change as
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: she is changing and also teaching how to make change happen.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: That's a phenomenal way of being also great art.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah yes, beautiful yeah, beautiful yes, beautiful thing too, Like
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: for those who saw maybe her show in the forties
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: and then had to wait thirty years because they didn't
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: go to Mexico or weren't having accessibility to see the shows.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: And then having her come back in the seventies to
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: do finally another show, what kind of excitement, Like if
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: you've been studying art and you know about this, like
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: oh my god, it's happening, It's happening. Like the joy
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: of seeing her arm live again, I couldn't imagine. I
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: just thought it, like, wow, that's thirty year difference and
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: waiting for that to happen.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: That's actually a good point because it kind of I
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: could see how it could kind of it's clear that
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: the American like black American audiences embraced her artwork and
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: realized what she was doing at the time and appreciated
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: her work from a you know, technical and also contextual
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: like you know, mindset. But I think it's interesting to
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: think that like she it could feel like she's the
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: one that got away, Like it's it was brain drained,
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: like this amazing skilled person, this amazing talent, this amazing
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: mind that you forced out of the United States. You know.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: Of course there was agency in her going to Mexico.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: She wanted to study there, but she was also being
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: denied her place in the United States, the place that
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: she was born, because of you know, natural the racism
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: that always existed there, but also all of the other
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: you know, anti communist sentiment and all of the other
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: problematic things that were happening at the time that made
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: it so that she was basically an undesirable to the
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: United States government, you know, kept her out of it.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: So it was like the one that got away. It's like,
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: this is my person and she's saying, these are my
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: two peoples, Like this is my people. Those people in
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: United States saying she's my people, and she's saying, these
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: are my people. But like we can't be together, we
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: can't be you know, I'm not welcome there. And so
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: I would imagine it's like it's like it was kind
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: of a could be a homecoming for her where it's
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: like I'm back to this place that really charged and enlivened,
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: enlightened you know, my work and you know my manner
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: of thinking. So yeah, I think that's a good a
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: good thing to think about, Samantha, that distance that was
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: created and coming back after that long time, good works,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: beautiful art.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, I also do a door that her and Margaret
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: stayed closed. Yeah, we love a good story of a friendship.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: That's I love that.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, well definitely check out the art listeners
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: if you haven't seen it, it's really amazing and thank
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: you so much Eves for making the time coming at
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: us from from Cape Town.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: We always love having you. Where can the good listeners
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: find you? Y'all can find me. You can just go
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: to my website, which is Eves Jeffcote dot com. That's
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: spelled y V E S J E F F c
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: A T dot com. You can sign up for my
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: newsletter there. You can pretty much get to all of
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: the other things from there, but you can also go
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: to my Instagram I'm at Not Apologizing and you can
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: message me contact me through there as well, and you
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: can hear me on many other episodes of Stuff Mom
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Never Told You with female first talking about women's accomplishments
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: in history.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, and go check out all of that stuff if
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: you haven't already, listeners. If you would like to contact us,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: you can or email is hello at stuff I've Never
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Told You dot com. We're also on Blue Skype Mom
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Stuff Podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Never told you. We have a YouTube channel, we have
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: some merchandise at Cotton Bureau, and we have a book
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: you can get where if you get your books. Thanks
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: as always, stare A super Disi Christina Executive PRUSA Maya
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: and our contruder Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: for listening stuff never told you Inspection by Heart Radio.
• 43:03
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• 43:05
  Speaker 2: out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or where you
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.