Latest / Rabbi Benjy's Shiur / Dealing with grief podcast

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Dealing with grief podcast · Rabbi Benjy's Shiur

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The following podcast was recorded at the end of December
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2020 to with the purpose of trying to help those who are
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struggling suffering with, it's from grief or from different
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challenges in life. And really, giving over the idea
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that sometimes we have to walk with a pebble in our shoe and it
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might hurt. But after a while, it just
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becomes normal and life can continue even after our shop
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belt of pain. I hope it helps Thank you for
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joining the relief from grief podcast by mrs.
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Marie M riviere and A several only mishnah.
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Our goal is to help you find the his that you may need and the
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comfort of knowing that you are not alone to sponsor an episode
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visit, however alumni mishnah dot-org forward, slash podcast
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and bring Comfort to listeners like you Hi everybody.
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Thank you for coming on today to the relief from grief podcast.
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Today's episode is sponsored, is sponsored the ELA dish.
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Must out the your Haskell been eliyahu and we do offer
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sponsorship opportunities. If anyone would like to sponsor,
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you could get in touch with me. You could go to the website.
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However, Lambda missional dot-org today.
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I'm very excited. Rabbi Benji.
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Rickman from England is here to join us and I'm very excited.
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So, thank you so much for coming on and they recommend.
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Thank you for having me. It's nice too.
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Do this together. So when I reached out to you and
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asked you if you would come on your response was yes, we have
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to help however many people we can.
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So I guess with that, in mind, let's start helping people join
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a club that nobody wants to be part of, I think.
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So we're three years ago it was the end of the summer holiday.
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My my oldest three children we had all those And then twins
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born pretty 13 months apart. After our first child was born,
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they all went to Florida to visit their grandparents.
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I Married An American Girl from Florida and the summer holiday
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was fantastic. Everything was brilliant, but
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the big three were in America. My younger ones were here with
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us. We thought this was no, really
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special time for the big kids and the younger kids could have
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special time, my wife, and I, and then beginning of September
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School New UK begins. Again, I taken my son to get
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his, his new Close you without to was in the senior years he
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worries own suit and his own shots and everything could be no
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is really excited to be independent a little bit
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independent in his life and about a few days into the school
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year, he suddenly got sick often, these things happen on
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Shabbos. So Shoppers night, you're really
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not feeling well, it's body was hurting.
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I just maybe got a virus, nothing too, serious Shabbos
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morning things look worse and And a friend of ours, who's a GP
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and also was involved a bit hot Seller.
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Said, you know, you've got a call at solar.
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Now at this is could be meningitis and when he was a
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baby, he had meningitis and Baruch Hashem.
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He was very, very sick, but workers.
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So he got better and we thought you can be plotted on a Shoppers
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to schlep the hospital and you've started killing, from
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sure lunch, we'll get to eat. Minnesota is never a good
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moment, but we got in the ambulance.
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Provide you the bit of entertainment for the street
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that book comes out the ambulance and Travis went to
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hospital and there he was in the neighborhood.
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So much pain and the doctors didn't know anything.
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And they thought just they just so many tasks and it wasn't
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nothing was being discovered. He was steady overnight, lots of
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Shadows, we were told to go home and that's hard, leaving a kid.
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And he's 15 years old before leaving out your child and
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hospital by themselves before the next morning, then maybe
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give him some antibiotics and he'll get better.
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And my life will just go back. Sunday was no better and he was
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he came home for a few hours and then already Monday he was.
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I think Monday was quite poorly. I'm straight to hospital.
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That is said, look we can't do anything in this Hospital, take
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him to the Children's Hospital where the experts are in touch
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with children and go that and from that point onwards he never
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came back home again and about 10 weeks later he was nefta.
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So now he had, he was he ready to call him my bodyguard because
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he was, he was my time, I'm not that tall, you know?
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Looks a six and a half. Seven inches on a good day.
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He was my he was my tool Big Boy, towered Over Me from the
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age of seven. Wherever I went, he went on
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people noticed that people spoke about that during the Shiva that
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he was always next to my side. And I'm very blessed that we
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have such an incredible relationship, but he got very
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sick. And the doctors were beyond
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amazing. They tried everything.
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They turned over, shall 9, the Arts Heaven and Earth will
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literally turned over. Organizing.
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It is a trial medication from Europe.
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That wasn't legalized yet? Yes, they got it, especially
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permission, every dose quarter of a million pounds for dose.
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And the blood was rushed to Europe for England.
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It can they figure out was even wrong?
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Some autoimmune condition that is incredibly rare and he was,
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he was graded, one of the Stick of kids in the hospital and out
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of nowhere, like would be now for 10 weeks Rosh, Hashanah Kids
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are so because they never came home again.
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And after the ten weeks I decided I am a teacher.
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I got to go back to, and I'm head of the college Department
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in our school. I better get back and teach a
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little bit. Hadn't.
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Been to school the whole time. Couldn't we going to be a part?
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It was too much and I went back and I said, well, crush em.
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Things are looking okay, little did I know that Baruch Hashem
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things are okay, 11 hours later, he was gone.
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He suddenly developed a check And infection, and they said you
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got to do an x-ray. We're going to put him back in
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intensive care. Now, he'd been in intensive care
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on Rosh, Hashanah. I was doubling from the onward
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in my short of Those Distant rather than multiple in local
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show in Manchester. And I literally just finished
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Hazara some shots of chakras. Are you?
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Sad are shallow and they're telling me get out now they're
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stripped off or he's gone to intensive care and they say
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Baruch Hashem we were given an extension.
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It was also shown it wasn't so push-ups wasn't so simple that
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he would he would make it And we got another good few weeks with
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him. Didn't know.
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He was going to go in that direction.
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But yeah, all of a sudden, the chest infection with all the
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other things that his autoimmune condition and 3:00 in the
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morning. Yeah, that was it.
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What's this amazing people already with the legal Community
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with Davon excetera? Very strange, many people have
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told us from the killer, they suddenly woke up in the middle
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of the night. They didn't know why they woke
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up. They just never wake up.
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Cup and they woke up dust and now the time that he was nefta.
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Wow. I mean the doctors were, you
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know, you see, doctors? Do you think they're going to be
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strong then they think they're gonna know?
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They just put it down to another.
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Another death that they just don't really care about the
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entire Hospital on you in the hospital.
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They were broken. The nurses, the doctors in the
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heaven, they came to our house during the Shiva.
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Well, to the non-jewish, doctors, and the OT staff came
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into our house and start with us, and we're sitting shiva,
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okay? They got to know him or he was
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really out of it. The whole he wasn't like, I'm
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kind of he was awake the whole time.
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We was always, he was very, very sick, because body was killing
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itself, and he was very, very sick and his numbers whatever.
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They were measuring were crazy. Wind tens of thousands of should
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have been like 30 or something. Whatever, they were measuring
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was crazy. Wow, was he was in pain but he
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was sick. You the whole time awake and we
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were chatting. We spoke we sat next to each
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other just lying on the bed together.
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Holding holding each other's hand goes to be with him.
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Did you have any discussions with him about dying?
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No, we didn't. I think does it was a kind of
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style? I got a sparkle gives us in our
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brains. We don't go there on this, like
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I remember when my father was in after six years ago, it was are
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poor. You wouldn't have to just off
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the for my mother said to me, you know, he's not gonna wake up
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and I I heard that from my mother, then I went to
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chauffeured from regular, then we had to go to art activities
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in school and we have to have a sort of stood there in that like
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I should have I should have fallen apart then because That
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was it? But because it wasn't the end.
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I think you don't acknowledge it tillich till it happens.
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And he did say he before he went to intensive care.
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He did say I'm dying and I don't know.
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He was just being if he knew like, he knew something was
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happening Ray, or he was just in pain and I'm dying of pain.
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Like I do, he wasn't quite a lot of discomfort and then they took
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him to intensive care. We told him, this is something I
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will treasure. And it's even this point here.
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You get a speak to someone who always say, nice things because
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you never know when their last moment will be my wife.
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And I said to him naphtali, we love you and then they put him
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in a coma. And then clay wanted to reduce
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some of the pressures in his body and he never woke up again
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that was it and at one point in the last few hours the nurse who
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was looking after else her face changed I think she knew wow
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looking thinking about the thinking back at a certain point
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he went from being optimistic because we'd been in intensive
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care. After summer we will be able to
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sustain us like we was we were quite excited.
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We thought brush am the same as a good signal on the same nurse.
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They area gonna be okay. It's going to For a couple of
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days and we'll go back and we'll continue this crazy experience
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with a kid who's sick after Southern Point everything
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changed and the doctors called us to his room and said what he
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said and I was it I guess whatever he said it definitely
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could go down as like the worst words I parents ever want to
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hear is the most awful thing. You know, it was my father who
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suddenly got sick then he was in a hospital for a month or so
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with the mysterious just be a family thing.
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These mysterious things he was he was sick with a mysterious
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bug but entire hospital was trying to work out.
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Was it viral? Was it bacterial?
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Was it? Whatever they could work it out.
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Wow. And it is bright, but that's,
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you know, that's parents awful. And I've just recently gave some
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cousins for a friend who just finished saying kaddish for his
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father. I said to him you're going to
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feel very different today 11 months you feel there's a
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connection the minute kaddish finishes.
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You filled the bereavement again because you filled the Gap can't
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do anything because that you've been connecting through saying
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kaddish really. A month and now it's finished.
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You feel and don't with women and maybe it's different cause
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you're not saying every day and sure, but for guys you've got a
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discipline and I support that but it's okay.
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You'll he said to me. Yeah, that's how I feel that I
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captured for him. He's emotion that he couldn't
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make sense of how he was feeling.
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Why does it, why does a loss while you're feeling bereavement
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after all those months? But on some level, it's, that's
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the make way it's meant to be with the child.
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It's, it's It's awful. Just the most awful then you
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can, we go ahead the Ross who was with us said, you know, go
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home. I'll stay with him.
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You got a busy day. Ahead you're not processing like
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well, I can say is, every single day of Shiva waking up in the
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morning. So I managed to fall asleep for
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a few hours was was Gahanna just to wake up to the reality again
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to know that your dad back at? That was the hardest thing
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really well? What does it feel like?
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I was actually asking parents recently, I was trying to put
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into Words. And I don't think there's really
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a way to put it in two words, but I guess I'm trying to see if
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there's any words in the English language that could capture the
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pain of a parent that lost a child.
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So it sounds cliche, but there's a part of you does Mystic the
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whole inside of you. There's just this huge
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emptiness. And there's a painting for me of
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us. There's a pain.
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That's the pain is constant. However, the way I described it.
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Someone, I don't know if it's the most profound way of
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explaining it, but if you're walking and you get a stone in
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your shoe, so it hurts. So you might stop in your bangle
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shoe. And get the stone out, then you
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continue. What?
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Have you can't take your shoe off?
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What if that Stones always that? So over time, that makes a dent
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in your foot and then the stone just becomes part of your foot
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and there's a little hole in it is difficult.
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Then and you learn to walk with that in.
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I think that's what it is. You learn to there's a huge
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emptiness and the shop was table is complicated and yontiff is
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complicated and that the house is somebody missing that, you
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know, aught to be there. And as the peanuts always there.
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But you learn to live with the pain, pain becomes like a buddy.
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That's always not a good body but someone that's always with
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you that accompanies you through everything you're doing, there's
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a mix a real mixer synthesis. Always of I have to continue
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because there's no point not continuing as a life to live as
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a when we made certain commitments, our family, you can
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smile again and require Crusher, made a customer for oldest
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daughter and we Had her crazy few months we had before pesach
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this year. Did I can also stay with her in
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his memory that we also Shabbos. I goggled was the off the Sunday
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was the can also save your throat to your mama's getting
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from to huge extremes of emotion, but on the shop was
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like, goggle we were happy, I can also say, for Tara was a
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mixture, the Fastener right off the bat, after per site, we
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promised our daughter. This is how Costner this is not
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about who's missing. This is about our oldest
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daughter. Back in shape, getting married
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to a great guy. Great guy and we were Basim car
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and we promised this or we weren't going to make it.
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It's so could have been about who wasn't there your brother?
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Your brother but it was her wedding.
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No, one else is waiting man. Say you can do it.
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You can you have the capacity human beings are amazing.
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We are, we can do more than we imagine ourselves to do.
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And was it? What is it was an exhausting?
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Absolutely, like we were shattered, not just do the
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regular wedding, you're making a Fastener, you're exhausted.
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But we exalt country the extremes and Emotion, backwards
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and forwards. So it's living with a pain
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living with an emptiness living with the contradiction between
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happy and sad. And then I think you've got a
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choice. Now, do you but Carter behind
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you choose to live and make life the best it can be or do you
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give up? And you know, it hasn't been one
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day three years. What?
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I've got back into bed and given up, I might have thought about
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it. You know, I've gotten up.
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I can't be bothered to today. I know.
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Listen well, and dealing with more than you can imagine, just
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leave me alone. Forgive me for a day.
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We never did it, but once you get up and you've got a
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responsibility to start living and it's but that's time.
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Don't anyone to think I'm not exhausted the whole time because
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you drink all the time from emotion.
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Wow. What happens today, when you
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look at the wedding pictures, like each picture.
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You see who's not there. Okay, so we just printed
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actually printed actually. Then we did the veteran August
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to my son by the sons bar mitzvahs.
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We just wow. The religion had three big
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events for a crush on abortion rights.
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So we have a gorgeous picture from the bar.
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Mitzvah the bar mitzvah boy, and my two other side.
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Um's my son-in-law and I look at that picture and they're all
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smiling, but I find that picture out because there's a guy Mystic
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met on. The one hand is beautiful there,
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all's that it was a sunny day and UK Manchester, which is
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quite rare. So it is the picture picture in
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the garden and he was green. It was beautiful but there's
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somebody absent from that. But also, the vents for, I think
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we promised ourselves for the simple as we have to be
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somewhere. May people look at our someone
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just now in the killer, we had a tragedy in the cute.
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Doing suckers. Yeah.
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I think she's your ex a young lady in the fifties.
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She said she went to sleep, erev Shabbos, color words because
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didn't wake up ago and it was told you it's all make clear
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during the shiver that they look, our family husband
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children, look at our family and how we continue that like Som
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sometimes you get a badge that you don't ask for my
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responsibility. That Hashem gives you and I
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think we're quite motivated by that.
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I don't want happy to give it back now.
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Sometimes asked I asked in the in Quiet Moments.
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Like a to what? I did.
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I know I was teaching her, I was giving sure room I'm a kindness
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to know and in my life was pretty I thought you know okay
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give or take whatever. I think I put those.
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Okay. I was looking after the Jewish
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people, they're giving my life to educate teenagers.
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Why did I need more? But there's no answer to that
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question but there's no answer. You're not going it like, can't
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her son's voice with an answer, but is there anything that you
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found kind of to be like an answer, something that you
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thought? That you have is a comfort,
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okay? So weird historical processes
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that they the UK's Chief Rabbi happens to be in Manchester the
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day after we finished sitting shiva, he went to the high
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school that I work in. I wasn't like at school.
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And then he came to our house because we'd arranged, I was
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that he was pulling. Who's going to come to my chest?
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I called up his opposite. Could you could the chief Rabbi
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come to hospital for visit? My son night wasn't about my son
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needing the chief Rabbi that wanted the nurses to get a
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clear. Look, I wanted them to see what
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is it? To be a year that the road would
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have come in and he would have greeted, everybody given
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everyone such a physical looking after this, Jewish boy, when I,
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then what happened. He was nipped on has to be came
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to our house. Many people don't know the
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current chief Rabbi of UK. He also lost a child.
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His daughter was lifted and she was in her late teens.
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Oh, well Kate. So he came to us as a chief
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Rabbi also has a father who lost a child and he said to me, I
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said to him, how do you know, how do you do it?
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Yeah. How do you continue living?
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Have you. Why don't you just day to day?
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So he told me something, very beautiful that he tries to
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channel the, his daughter. And I don't remember her name
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was three years ago. They'll something to do with
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light or simcha. Something along those lines.
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I'm not mistaken. I'm wrong.
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I'm wrong the name but his whole approach to being a chief, Rabbi
18:17
and meeting people. And teaching her is to bring the
18:20
life of his daughter and what she represented for him and the
18:22
family into what he does that to keep her energy with them.
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I Baby. That's one thing.
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I felt very beautiful. We try and do that enough.
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Totally, you know, from when he was three months old, he had
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meningitis. And we can get out when I gave
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the students who died after you've lost, cause the baby and
18:38
spoke about his name, being to struggle or being to David and
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that we need to know, not give up in life and keep going and
18:45
they feel that there's a responsibility from his energy.
18:48
They left in the world to continue doing that.
18:51
And then the other strange thing that happened a shutter at, they
18:53
had a holocaust Survivor who's still alive today in his In his
18:57
90s, I can't remember his name and he lost over 100, family
19:01
members the Holocaust, and he came to my house. 8:00, they
19:04
wanted to bring him to me as well.
19:05
So I said to him, how do you? And I'm not comparing one child
19:08
took 200 fat, but you know, and he said to me again, he said
19:11
that our answers, the answers are with her sure.
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You've got to be in, shimane to hear those answers.
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He said, I'm not in any rush to give up living just yet.
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I think those two ideas are really important.
19:23
Yes, it's hard. It's very hot and there are
19:26
moments. Just this weekend was hit by
19:28
Mitzvah six years ago, harshest v8c and it was a hard shot.
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This is no Basho into. My son was a twin.
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So his twin sister she can and should sit here and just
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learning and, and then wine and Israel right now.
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She's no, she doesn't celebrate her birthday.
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She doesn't Kebab. We didn't submit in so she can't
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do it. We didn't talk about it.
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Wow, it's their birthday and half.
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The package is missing. Wow, so that's that.
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Adds another layer of. So this Shabbos was complicated
19:59
but there are answers but I don't wanna just be outsourced.
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Have to try we have today after I accept the challenge.
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No there's pain. And then be there for other
20:09
people. If we've gone something, then
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you can offer a perspective, we can offer, we can offer the love
20:15
and the support and the knowledge that people are
20:17
suffering, and to share to share the experiences to challenge,
20:24
not just to hear the pain, but to challenge, people to know
20:27
that they can do something with that pain.
20:30
Doesn't have to be the end. Life might be paid for this is
20:33
not the end. So what do you say when someone
20:37
says, I absolutely can't go on and see, you know, maybe you
20:40
managed to do something good with your pain, I can't.
20:43
Okay. So I don't pretend that there's
20:45
some sort of easy outs of everybody.
20:47
And definitely not some sort of superhero that there because
20:50
they're plenty of moments where the head is hurting and the
20:53
hearts empty. And it's feels awful.
20:55
The first the first seder night after he was nipped abortion
20:59
there. But then it was a botched,
21:00
abortion was covid. Y Bar, her sure.
21:02
Because there was so many Booklets out how to do a quick
21:05
seder. Hi, I know enough that I use
21:10
very useful to know which bits are essential and which bits
21:13
weren't essential. So that our bond him, which was
21:15
not an essential part of selling, the story of received
21:18
suppressing, like I didn't, we did nothing new except no songs
21:21
at the end and we skipped out a bonnet.
21:23
I cooked about four Sons but I didn't have four sons that
21:26
wasn't happening. And I, we did all the bits that
21:29
you have to do like the main headlines.
21:32
We got through seder little the myth.
21:34
It was as well as we could and that was it.
21:36
So to tell people now not everything you're going to do
21:39
from now on is going to be the most perfect way.
21:42
I mean that first day that I got through about seven seconds and
21:45
started saying Kiddush and then it all went then I just broke
21:48
down because it was overwhelming.
21:50
It's that wave their what sorts of allocution of the wave just
21:54
hitting you with grief and you don't know how it is going to
21:56
come and can come at any moment. But again, you've got other
22:02
people in your life. Got no, my husband's wife, other
22:05
children. And they need, they need
22:07
another, they needed me to make it pays off on some level.
22:11
Not the pace up. We had previously where everyone
22:13
could sing and be happy together the different one.
22:16
And every patient is a bit in. It's not what it was.
22:19
That was a sham in fullness of time.
22:22
Had another over this son-in-law of mixture and future
22:25
grandchildren you know, they will be empty, you have to
22:28
redefine thing. They can't always be the same
22:30
what we also did come up the Hanukkah.
22:32
So what seemed to be pretty standard.
22:35
And what in the gala here, Notch the killer?
22:37
Was that women? Didn't like Hanukkah.
22:38
Countless, I grew up in London. Another let my sister die here.
22:42
The kids went to school, girls, to read this.
22:43
You know what, whatever, that's what everyone's doing here and
22:46
why confuse everybody. But I said after naphtali was
22:49
NAFTA, we're not going to have one less Menorah, we're gonna
22:53
have more, everyone's gonna like handles now.
22:56
So we didn't have last, we had a plus.
22:58
And I want that was important in this year.
23:00
Now that he's through his twin sister lit.
23:02
His Menorah child's me out by who's gonna like us at, I'm
23:05
gonna call my mother. I want my wife will like, sure
23:07
like this year as well. So we try to increase the light
23:10
in the house, not to not tell something missing.
23:12
And I think that's part of it as well as a try and see what you
23:15
could do to add to add, to every node, to recognize the
23:18
experience, is going to be different.
23:20
And to know it's not to like, don't beat yourself up over it
23:23
if it's not perfect. No, I'm not going to do another
23:26
To our state or an hour-and-a-half, say the zooming
23:29
through things and just having an amounts of some chicken soup
23:31
and that's bench and it's just read Hollow because that's not
23:35
what he would want. What if he was here?
23:37
He would say come on, let's do it nicely.
23:38
But at the same time, give yourself space.
23:41
If you pass or Shalem bereaved and it's complicated, give
23:45
yourself state of how men I said, very nice.
23:48
The Holocaust said, you've got to Dublin from the be the
23:50
housing and show people. Say got a heel will look after
23:53
yourself and if traveling is too much of his Standing out there
23:57
and leading a service in the morning is stressful and you
23:59
don't need it. You just need to let you know,
24:01
you learn submission is due to an active, Crestor do something,
24:05
other couldn't you got a bridge yourself and your commitments to
24:09
other people. Everyone says it may be.
24:12
We tell ourselves because it helps you Ahsoka when we
24:14
convince ourselves as things, but then, the one who passed
24:18
away would want you to continue living and fungal my
24:20
perspective. There are Irish coffee tells us
24:23
that they're very happy. Right there, they're in a good
24:26
place. They're not suffering, the
24:28
they're looking down, they see, they see us, they can feel our
24:30
pain but they're not suffering. So it's the idea of what can I
24:35
give him? I can give him that.
24:36
We're continuing the right way that we can include him in a SIM
24:40
card. Happy some are when we're doing
24:42
a myth sofa and think of him and the key to keep keep on someone
24:47
that's really broken. Just give them the love and no
24:49
expectations like her. I think we're very good.
24:51
Sometimes I go about this in my sure we're good at We sometimes
24:56
forget the little Sparkle behind everything across protocol knows
24:59
you. He knows where you're at by
25:01
shows shower. He knows what you can do and
25:03
what you can't do, and sometimes we forget bringing the from
25:06
world. We forget those God, you know,
25:08
very well. My kids wanted to be way.
25:10
I poured water on my Knuckles, Yom Kippur Beyond grasp it on my
25:13
hand and all the facts that guy. Sure knows, you were trying to
25:16
let you did it. You learnt in school where to
25:17
pull the water. It's okay.
25:19
Relax. But it was a splash, like No
25:21
One's Gonna put you in prison, and I think If we need to remind
25:25
ourselves, that Hashem loves us, Michelle knows where we are.
25:28
But he's a loving God, not out to squash, after we get things
25:31
wrong. And so you got to just remind
25:34
ourselves of some, we believe in these things or sometimes we
25:37
forget what we believe. I really want people to just be
25:41
kind to themselves. The walk around and pretend it's
25:46
all fine. It's not fine because it's been
25:48
no one's fine when they go through one of these situations
25:51
and it is painful. Someone said to us, there are
25:54
some dangerous things up. Sometimes people say in innocent
25:57
so my daughter and I had a code during the shiver it was a big.
26:00
Someone brought us a blanket. There was, we put the blanket
26:03
over Alex and when someone came in and was saying something a
26:06
little bit silly. They had good intentions, but we
26:09
used to squeeze each other's hands.
26:11
Like I'm suffering right now. Someone super dumb, I said to
26:16
her, that's my daughter said, you should just say Baruch
26:19
Hashem, you should do them for them.
26:21
They should never ever know what this type of pain is let them
26:25
continue their whole life saying dumb things and I never know the
26:29
pain of what it is. In a situation that's very kind
26:32
of you, that's for sure. And we read that was our plan
26:36
because you've got two options you or you can shout back and
26:39
embarrass them, you can allow them to hurt you which is not
26:43
their intention. They're just being ignorant,
26:45
right? They should never know.
26:48
Well, I want you to remain ignorant because Baruch Hashem
26:51
because you couldn't cope. And people say if you like art I
26:55
don't know how you do it. Let's say you should never know.
26:58
Like, if I'm doing it is because on some mysterious Cosmic scheme
27:02
Hashem, things that we can then I don't want you to have to know
27:07
this and there's no people try and understand it can't
27:11
understand. They say things the outsides
27:13
difficult. No.
27:14
You should just then a shot must have an early age died recently
27:17
on them and then they give you that puppy dog face and they
27:20
look at your sad. Don't do that to me.
27:23
I'm already feeling sad. I think needs I need you to look
27:26
at me and just put me on that spot but people don't know what
27:30
to say. I think that's part of it.
27:32
I think that's a percussion people that are helpful to say
27:36
because if people do want to stay a mentor mean, that lots of
27:38
kids are dying and then it would become part of our vocabulary
27:41
would have more guidebooks or what to say because it'd be more
27:44
common. My rather, I think on a very
27:48
bad, it should be level. There was looking at the
27:49
positive, it's a good thing. People don't know what to say.
27:53
I think me and you can't understand things.
27:55
You can't understand. You think back to when you had
27:57
your first choice, you can never understand exhaustion.
28:00
You can do, I can wake up in the night, okay?
28:02
But you can't understand what it is to wake up in the night for
28:04
five times. Running back to a baby just
28:06
screaming. You can't calm down.
28:08
You're so desperate to go to sleep, and no matter how
28:10
intelligent you are, or what your IQ is, you can never
28:13
understand it until you're in that situation, right?
28:16
Love it. I feel that some things we can't
28:18
make sense of until you're in the situation.
28:21
So, how did you take care of your own grief?
28:25
And then of course I'm sure you had you know, your wife you
28:28
probably grieve differently and your children but especially his
28:32
twin sister like she was probably her own kind of
28:35
perisher. Well yeah that's as to them to
28:39
the drama. Yeah.
28:40
When you, when you lose your parents, you hope that you'll
28:43
your partner in life appreciated that in-laws, but they're not
28:46
going to feel the same. So there's one person grieving
28:49
and other person's The Supporting Cast.
28:51
But in this case, Everyone's breathing now, some people want
28:55
to see pictures. I can't bear looking at
28:58
pictures. The love is like a tsunami hits
29:01
me? And I don't have it.
29:03
It's overwhelming. I can't I can't do it.
29:06
Well, my wife wants to see pictures so that's 11.
29:10
The same people understand. A dip watch, how you can grieve.
29:12
Different is one simple example, but it's really true.
29:15
Sometimes one person will fill in right now.
29:18
I need to talk to you about it and Utah, I'm feeling something.
29:20
Now, I've had a song or item of food, food or something as
29:23
reminded me. And I want to talk about it.
29:25
You're like I'm coping I'm in a good place right now.
29:28
I'm in a I'm in an okay place. You're going to take me down
29:31
with you. I don't want to be there right
29:33
now trying to just get through a Shabbos in it and there's no
29:36
rules that can just and then so that was really difficult.
29:40
I think they just took a lot of Seattle dish, Maya and a lot of
29:45
patience. It was really hard, I don't
29:47
know. I know, I can't say if I
29:48
succeeded 100%, I tried to be the best husband, the best dad
29:52
and With myself as well. Probably me being me.
29:56
I prioritized everybody else and that's when I got high blood
29:59
pressure that's one of the perks of the job of being a teacher as
30:02
well. So that was how it was, a
30:03
husband, a wife, how to balance it, and it's very hard to make
30:05
space and you can even three is down the night evens.
30:08
Any three years, things still come up, one person, it can go
30:11
very quiet since you really want to put yourself in that place
30:15
with Outlets big dilemma, how to be, just to give space to each
30:18
other. The be that but you know, you're
30:20
going to be damaged in the process with his Sister that was
30:24
also a big thing because my oldest child was only 13 months
30:28
older than the twins. So they grew up with like a
30:31
triplet because it's right, there wasn't really much
30:33
difference at a certain point. They were all doing similar
30:35
things and she had her relationship but they were the
30:38
twin that I do think I managed so.
30:41
Well I think it's very I think with the twin no one really
30:44
knows. No.
30:45
There were times I look back but I smile when they would walk
30:47
home from shore of Shadows and the twins would they would stand
30:50
next to each other? Because they're those bonds
30:52
that? I can't explain that.
30:53
They just had it and they like, you didn't know who our family
30:57
were like a boyfriend and girlfriend walking in the street
31:00
and some people walk past looking very upset that there
31:03
was this from people. They were, why were they
31:05
together? I just would stand back and
31:07
laugh at them because I could see that eyes like they're
31:09
brother and sister and they're twins and there's a connection
31:13
there that goes deeper than even up.
31:14
Even parents come at, can't understand.
31:16
So I know I didn't do that. Well, that was very hard but she
31:19
had her grief. That was so profound.
31:21
But it was hard to then validate my oldest and my youngest my
31:25
boys had their grief. The younger one is then your
31:28
kids use any nine years old. So he's worrying about.
31:30
Am I going to forget my brother? Because no.
31:32
Well, I'm only nine. What do we remember?
31:34
Woman nine years old those. He'll see.
31:37
I don't even know. Now, like are his memories
31:40
really his own or other memories that he's been given by
31:42
conversations that we've had in the house and there's that
31:45
concern and he shared a bedroom with him.
31:47
Used to my old not follow you struck after his younger
31:49
brother. We live we never knew that.
31:51
Half of things. He did, whether it was ripping
31:53
off to his friends at school, where he was a very private, a
31:57
secret little sadek that did things to change people's lives
31:59
that came out during the Shiva. And his friends have told us
32:02
things that subsequent mean, the last thing he did with my head,
32:06
the last thing he did freely before he got sick, was go to a
32:10
shiver of his face while his friend was sitting shiva because
32:13
their baby sister passed away from illness.
32:15
That was his last act that he did in the world before.
32:18
Going to hospital was going to a shimmer and when he came back
32:21
from the Chevy, then Feeling well and then that led them, so
32:23
that it was Elvis, do much when he was sick me out.
32:26
Not at home, but I'm not in hospitals, right?
32:29
So it's hard. It's, I think that's very,
32:30
that's one of the big challenges when you're losing it when you
32:33
lost a kid to balance everybody. And took to keep I was
32:37
determined that the family was not going to break up because of
32:40
grief. But I also knew that that's very
32:43
very real realistic possibility. That grief can can destroy a
32:47
family. Any type of pressure, like that
32:49
know how some classes. Don't teach you to deal with
32:51
that then And color classes. Don't teach you deal with these
32:54
types of extreme situation. There's no books that give you
32:57
advice. You have two dozen weed.
32:59
I haven't and you have to really want to keep everything
33:02
together. So when your daughter got
33:04
engaged, like, did you right away?
33:05
Like let her husband know all about the the brother-in-law
33:09
that he's never going to know. So I think she she took him to
33:13
the cave. I can't remember after they got
33:16
must be after then you though laughter then you do get engaged
33:19
or after they formally got engaged, whatever that's it.
33:21
Track of the timeline, but she did, and she spoke about him,
33:25
and I think she she needed someone.
33:27
And she looked someone that it was kind, who could understand.
33:31
Because bash have told he was very kind.
33:33
She does someone have certain M, like her brother and he says,
33:36
pictures and our pictures up in our house.
33:38
I try and avoid looking at. I know that I just can't really
33:41
look at them and she speaks about him, but doesn't this?
33:43
No expectations. He goes to a cave and sees a
33:45
stone with words on it and the whole different world, what
33:49
she's feeling and what he can understand.
33:51
He's a really good guy. So he's, there's like that
33:53
picture. He's filled in a gap in there,
33:55
were three, four brothers, and they were three brothers are
33:57
brother-in-law. So he's slotted in, right?
34:01
But it's, he hits. He listens, he listens and tells
34:05
she tells him story sometimes or were doing on the York sites,
34:08
the beginning of freshman and birthday and kislev.
34:11
She was feeling very fragile. She explains them.
34:14
And they're young couples, he has to learn to deal with great
34:18
things. Like normal, young mid-20s
34:21
aren't really dealing with, but he's I got engage like a year,
34:26
right? Like right after my brother's
34:28
first day, I'd say, and I got married and I'm not sure if it
34:31
was the second year, I'd say, like, my first, you know, your
34:34
thought that I was married or the next year, I think, was that
34:36
first one? I forgot to light the yard, so I
34:38
candle and like, besides that, I felt so terrible.
34:43
Like, my father was like, so devastated that, like, how could
34:47
I forget? Like he thought.
34:48
I'm just forgetting my brother. Like, I got married.
34:50
I'm moving on. And like, that's it.
34:52
I was like, no, no, no. No, I'm just I just got married
34:55
like I'm just like it's okay like I'm not forgetting him
34:58
really but I am. My gosh, I never forgot since
35:02
lights. We sure.
35:04
I think I think she's very keen to have him part of her life,
35:07
but it's very hard to connect to someone, you know, we will try
35:09
really hard from tissue below to connect to the base.
35:11
I'm English and we try and connect something I've never
35:13
experienced and we read and we study and we learn.
35:17
And we listen that maybe that's what it's like for someone that
35:20
marries someone who's lost a sibling, right?
35:24
Probably the most beautiful thing in your whole life.
35:26
Something you're close to and Basham.
35:28
She has good memories and she has some memories and the
35:33
dangerous having the regrets as well.
35:36
So, we didn't know how sick he knew he was sick, but we didn't
35:38
want to hear it. And whenever they told us, you
35:40
know, he's very sick. One of the Sickest Kids in this
35:42
whole Hospital. A children's hospital in the top
35:45
three or four? Well, you tell yourself will be
35:48
okay. It's going to be okay.
35:49
And she was, she was in gateshead seminary that she
35:52
didn't come home, we didn't know.
35:53
No. Wow.
35:55
But it's you're trying to connect it.
35:57
No Shredder to bring their stories.
35:59
Bring the lived example of what he represented to be that That
36:04
life example, that a shaman that he wasn't trying to bring his,
36:07
his gift to the world, back into the world Trend, it's not her
36:11
chicken to do this types of things because her life get his
36:14
life. But if you can demonstrate some
36:17
of it and show your husband, show you why this is who my
36:19
brother. Was we look at letters, we look
36:21
at his text messages on Tisha. Bobby we bought him a phone when
36:26
he was the hospital. His high school, it did allow
36:29
phones but he was all alone, we got him a famous.
36:32
Oh no, told the school. You know, it's against the rules
36:34
basil alone in the hospital overnight.
36:36
They were fine. And we look at we look at the
36:38
matter WhatsApp messages, we look letters at his friends,
36:40
wrote US during the shiver after the shiver and take the just on
36:44
Tisha b'av. I think there's a danger that
36:46
you get stuck in that place and you don't want to let go, right?
36:52
I could very easily. All right, we're all of us.
36:54
Could you could spend a lot of time in the, the basic Rivera's,
36:57
by the K value. Just because you feel that as a
37:00
point of connection to that place and you could spend hours
37:06
and Theory your life, just they're not doing.
37:10
I think we've all this one of the snow at times.
37:13
We've I want to go by no, don't go because there's no point.
37:16
Just do something positive in the world to make a difference
37:18
in somebody's life. Don't stick in the world of
37:23
death and loss. Your something that's positive
37:26
do something that tells people there was a kid in the world
37:29
called the Italian. He was 15 years old and he
37:33
looked at people and you notice when they were sad and he he
37:36
actually saved their lives. If they're at, they told us they
37:38
were from his kids in school. When a bad place, he noticed
37:41
that they were feeling sad and he made a point of going up to
37:44
them. He worried for other people and
37:46
cared for other people. And suddenly example for other
37:49
people and doing those types of things, makes you feel that he's
37:55
still going on some level. Nice life hasn't been forgotten.
38:00
We see it with his friends. His friends were totally broke.
38:02
Another nother level, his friends were spiritually broken.
38:05
That's how many high school kids and it's cool.
38:08
It's a you don't really know what to do.
38:10
You're not experienced enough to know in high school, right?
38:14
So they brought shame to the very date at their most ammonia,
38:16
or narration strong, they're studying them.
38:18
They got together for the outside and they did those that
38:20
you to see him and they had memories and they sung songs.
38:25
They showed us this, at the videos to us, So he's still very
38:29
much a part of people's lives, which is amazing and reading
38:32
when they will go make it when they get married.
38:34
I am I am very nervous about that because many of them from
38:37
the glue killer, they know us. There's at the robin, the shores
38:41
friend of no, I'm not and the back of my head, how to go to
38:46
their weddings and dance with them because they have a short
38:49
go to want to do that. That's going to be.
38:52
Headache. That's going to be.
38:55
I have a I have a message. I have a message to all these
38:58
two. All these boys.
38:59
I was at a wedding. I want to see recently, but by
39:02
now could have been like a year ago.
39:03
Could have been a little more than a year ago and my brother
39:06
was even younger when he was in after he was only too happy when
39:08
he was 14 and it was a very good friend of his sub, my brother's
39:12
friend was his like sister that was making the wedding.
39:15
His sister happens to be my neighbor or whatever.
39:17
So that's really why I was there and somehow I he came into the
39:21
latest, actually, I'm not really sure.
39:22
Have I got to see him but I don't know.
39:25
I just said hi. I am, you know I told them, you
39:27
know, member Anna Liam show Nick and he starts telling me about
39:30
how much he thinks about my brother and how he's really like
39:34
he didn't just get married and have kids and move on because
39:37
I'm looking at him. He's home now.
39:39
I don't even know I close to 40 by now.
39:41
Does that makes it? No, I don't know whatever it is.
39:43
But you know, a whole family bunch of kids and like of course
39:46
he forgot his friend who died when he was 14, like, you know,
39:49
they rode bikes together. Like I know he was going on and
39:52
on And then I even think he sent me pictures that he had of him
39:55
and everything, and it was just so comforting.
39:58
It was like, the best thing, you know, it was just the best thing
40:01
that anyone could do. I like, I like, I know that.
40:03
Oh, like people really remember him.
40:06
And it's really important, I think for people to let people
40:09
know, especially parents know that their child was not
40:11
forgotten. Yeah.
40:14
Have you seen Bob similar situations where everything's
40:17
fine is someone would come out with a memory.
40:19
I want to share something with us, tell you of a freaky story,
40:22
simple Tomorrow night, I wasn't feeling happier than the not in
40:25
the mood. I was missing him.
40:28
So I left shoulder a bit, little bit earlier schlepping on.
40:31
It was ready in England. It's ready like water.
40:32
Potentials getting silly time to go home.
40:35
I was walking home past another Shore.
40:37
Someone said to me He went into that, show me off.
40:41
Does he know me? Why?
40:42
Because they were dancing with the safer Terror that we
40:45
dedicate went to his high school.
40:46
They borrowed it from the high school.
40:47
So there's new minions have more severe in terms of simple syrup.
40:51
I went in 20 seconds after they, just take it and put it back in
40:54
the on code is not just about to leave.
40:57
But I went it was the uncoated, I kiss the sefer Torah and the
41:00
Ralph came over and people study, they felt in this minion
41:04
that he was with them. Wanted his Rebels from school.
41:06
Was that it means it's it, does it gives you a hazard to know
41:10
that he's not forgotten that there's a statement syrup that
41:13
has a mantle that has a subscription on it.
41:15
But people remember the boy that they're not just dancing with
41:18
the safe with her. Right.
41:20
Right. And it was and I couldn't
41:21
understand why I maybe the show I had to be somewhere else.
41:24
I should have gone there earlier.
41:25
Maybe I could have held the safe with her.
41:27
At least to me. So I filled a hole that say that
41:29
I feel like I'm holding him. It's through a field with it as
41:34
a plaque. I was someone donated some
41:36
bookshelves for the storm in that basement or so there are
41:38
places around that that he's names mentioned that people see
41:43
his name and they know me and they know what family it does is
41:46
gives up his it, but it also goes back to that emptiness
41:49
that's inside the heart. Thanks.
41:52
That's but it's living living with that pain.
41:55
But with the joy, Something that is that you don't know it's
41:58
possible to your to you'd start doing it, you can do it and just
42:04
to love to know that the person lived and they're not suffering.
42:09
And it's hard. And so there are questions
42:12
course their questions. But I think To sanctify life to
42:16
keep life going in to be the be there for other people.
42:19
I thought is what and you go, what you do in a situation,
42:22
you're coping, or you're not coping find someone to cope
42:25
with. You've got shems, put you in a
42:27
situation, then this is what I'm called to do.
42:30
So, to talk about grief, to talk about, paying the say, that it's
42:33
okay and not to make it embarrassing.
42:35
Like, it's okay to be in pain as okay.
42:38
It's okay to feel sad, you can own that.
42:40
So, the UK with a difference, the Americans, they, we don't
42:42
like to show our emotions on the outside.
42:45
They're a bit more deliver a bit, a bit more closed in the
42:47
UK. Wow, there any and working to
42:50
change that. Like, people can cry, it's okay
42:51
to cry so cater to say I need help and that's what we do.
42:57
Wow, okay. I mean has some should continue
43:03
to give you strength and and even know what to say.
43:06
Help you with your pain? No, you don't.
43:08
I mean, says something that you sort of want to hold on to it a
43:10
little bit forever. But I think that you've given so
43:14
many Important messages. I feel like you said so many
43:16
good things. But I guess before we end, if
43:18
there's anything that we missed that you want to say, I think
43:22
that's final conversations. People are really important.
43:27
It's a big Circus, the last thing.
43:28
My father said to me before he stopped being able to
43:32
communicate like him. Now for Manchester to London to
43:34
the hospital to see. Him said, I love you and
43:38
Bittersweet. Well, that was the last thing I
43:39
said to myself. Wow, that fills me with tears
43:43
and joy at the same time, and it's a very, but now for a cool,
43:46
I whole life turned around. My My Bodyguard ended up being
43:50
very weak. Very, very fragile.
43:54
But love people. Love Of people, they never go to
43:57
bed angry because you just could, we really just don't
44:00
know. We don't know.
44:02
And if you need help reach out for it.
44:04
Never be scared to say. I need help and the show's got a
44:07
plan. Don't always have to understand
44:09
it but know if you're in a community of people that just
44:13
through your through what you do there's a community that dealing
44:16
with grief and dealing with sad things that helps to bring
44:19
people together. I did a counseling session soon
44:22
after and unzoom during covid and Girl was on it because she
44:26
missed her grandfather when she discovered my story.
44:29
She felt so inadequate. Like what am I crying of my
44:31
grandfather? Thought you crying of your child
44:33
said? No, no, grief is grief.
44:36
No one's got the badge. Who has it, was you who has it?
44:38
There is no Baruch Hashem. There are people, we grieve
44:41
because the person who's gone, we loved them.
44:44
And that's what we hold onto that, right?
44:46
We grieve the people. We love that.
44:48
We have this little horse, have someone that we loved in our
44:50
lives. We could give love, they were
44:52
worthy of our love. And to be that person for
44:55
another post to be that type of being, for another person to be
44:58
someone that you can love and you can love others as
45:00
important. Okay, thank you so much time.
45:03
Should give everyone in Hama and we should have Michelle soon.
45:08
And again, I just want to end off if anyone is interested in a
45:11
sponsorship opportunities to come to Kerala michigan.org.
45:14
Thank you, so, so much. You have just listen to an
45:22
episode by mrs. Marie.
45:23
M, riviere for more episodes or for additional information about
45:27
future episodes. Visit our website at
45:30
www.carandtruckremotes.com org or email M riviere at her Lambda
45:37
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45:40
speaker to suggest another speaker, who might be mahasabha
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