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INSIDE THE MIND OF A CREATOR WUNDERKIND · The Media Odyssey

• Jordan Schwarzenberger: [00:00:00] And they said, look, we'd love to have you full time as long as your parents won't come and try and hunt us down with pitchforks for getting you outta uni. I said, no, that'll be fine, trust me. And they said, great, well if you want, we would love to bring you on as a junior creative to start. And I was, I think I was the youngest creative that, I was [00:00:15] 18, right? So I was, couldn't be anyone legally younger than me.[00:00:30] Evan Shapiro: Welcome back to the Media Odyssey podcast. That is Marion Ranchet. Marion Ranchet: and that is Evan Shapiro. Evan Shapiro: We've got a great episode with somebody really brilliant from the creator world who is [00:00:45] leading innovation and thought across all platforms out there. But before we get to our friend and guest, let's talk about a little bit of news that's happening. There's a actually a lot of bit of news happening right now. Let's start with this country, [00:01:00] this side of the Atlantic and the shit show that is Nielsen and the MRC. Have you been following this news on your end? Marion Ranchet: Yeah, absolutely. I have to say a bit from afar 'cause I've been a bit busy. I was in London, [00:01:15] these last few days. But yeah, keen to have you bring us to speed. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, for those who do not know, the, Media Rating Council, which is as Orwellian as its sound is supposed to be the [00:01:30] self-regulatory watchdog. That's, those are their words that overseas, the quality of measurement in the United States. But for a long time, and a year ago, I actually called this out when they accredited, the big data [00:01:45] plus panel bullshit sandwich that Nielsen put out a year ago. I said this didn't go through a proper review, it was not a good product and that it was gonna end in tears. I got a lot of shit from friends of ours in the [00:02:00] industry for saying that, and I actually called for the MRC to be disbanded at that time. Well it turns out is that they found out the Media Rating Council found out that there were problems in the methodology for the denominator for the universe of Nielsen and the United States. They found this [00:02:15] out almost a year ago. They said nothing to the industry. They let the entire advertising in industry in the United States transact in the Upfront on data and a universe that they know was not [00:02:30] properly vetted. And what this means is that they were just not covering the right number of homes. They were not truly representing the number of homes or the diversity of homes in the United States. So this fall, the MRC accredited something called [00:02:45] Dash, which is a different kind of panel. and in fact it's been proven, it's from NORC, out of the University of Chicago, which has been very accurate at polling pre, prior to the last couple of elections, more accurate than any other, polling data out [00:03:00] there. So they accredited that as the denominator, as the household denominator for the universe of measurement. And then they forced Nielsen to integrate that panel into their data. They didn't tell anybody this. Marion Ranchet: No. [00:03:15] Evan Shapiro: They didn't alert the industry that this was going on. Then Nielsen, and it took, applied this to the February measurement. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: And they were preparing to put out The Gauge, which is this totem that we [00:03:30] all use here in the US to track the general direction of viewership. And the numbers were so dramatically different from their previous, methodology. It showed streaming at a far lower [00:03:45] number, below traditional broadcast and cable combined for the first time since last April. And it showed both YouTube and Netflix and all other streamers lower, and it showed broadcast higher. And that's because the Dash data [00:04:00] go, doesn't just panel, poll people online or using people to verify themselves. They go knock on doors and they ask people in their homes, what are you watching? How are you watching? And so they better represented an [00:04:15] older, more rural, less connected, fewer homes with broadband. And so they basically found a broadcast audience, that has not been measured, heretofor. And it, the [00:04:30] numbers were so dramatically different that everybody who saw them in the client list on Nielsen freaked the fuck out. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: Then Nielsen pushed back. The release of the gauge and said that they were gonna, delay it for a couple weeks to let everybody's freak out, [00:04:45] simmer down, and then they reversed themselves even further and said, Nope, we're gonna release the old version of The Gauge using the old methodology, and we're gonna push back this new version of the data until next fall [00:05:00] so everybody can find a way to deal with this in the Upfront. And I renewed my call to disband this bullshit panel, which is the MRC, the president or the CEO of the MRC commented in my comment section on LinkedIn. You can go there [00:05:15] and look at it. And by the way, I broke this all down on my Substack, you can go there, Media War and Peace. And then I broke it down into summary on LinkedIn. And then George Ivy, the CEO of MRC, commented in my comment section, not directly to me, but to somebody else, and admitted [00:05:30] that they've known about this problem for a long period of time and said nothing to the industry. And Sean Cunningham from VAB, the Video Advertising Bureau said this has cost the industry hundreds of millions of dollars. So there, the [00:05:45] measurement ecosystem, the measurement community in the United States is on fire right now, and it's an epic disaster. And it was what everybody was talking about at the Newfronts yesterday. So that's, the news as it stands today, I'm waiting [00:06:00] for another shoe to drop any, minute. The MRC is an embarrassment, and they have clearly, again, these are Sean Cunningham's words from the VAP, they've been giving Nielsen a get out of jail free card for way too long. And [00:06:15] the craziness is everybody in traditional television likes to complain about how the big wall gardens grade their own homework. Yeah. Okay. what's working and what's not. And here this is the Fox grading [00:06:30] its own homework on protecting the chickens. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: And it is a disaster. I don't understand how either Nielsen or MRC recover from this dumpster fire. Marion Ranchet: Quick question for you, if we put [00:06:45] aside the lying and the hiding all of that, this new, you said what's NORC Evan Shapiro: So it's NORC runs this pole. It's called Dash, DASH. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. [00:07:00] Is that, so do you believe in that as a solid source of truth? Or that's not even the point anymore? I'm trying to understand whether, clearly The Gauge [00:07:15] is useless. Anyone who uses it and comments on it, now that we know they're just gonna go back and, forget it. Is that showing a clearer picture? And should be, what we should trust moving forward? [00:07:30] This Dash thing, the results from Dash? Evan Shapiro: I don't understand how you use a panel to measure usage in the day where, in an age where consumers are watching everything wherever they want on different devices, on different [00:07:45] days, at different times on different platforms. I just, I, think usage data from the actual platforms itself. I was at Tubi Upfront yesterday and they talked about closed loop measurement and trackability. and so they are [00:08:00] using third party data solutions, but they're, tailoring it for each deal. So if Proctor and Gamble comes along and wants a specific data pool to be their metric of success and then they wanna track lift [00:08:15] in sales, then that's the deal you make for that transaction. But the idea that we would use a panel of, in the case of NORC, it's 11,000 ish people in case of, In the case of, Nielsen, it's [00:08:30] 42,000 homes for a country of 330 million people. It's just, it's bonkers and it, is not in keeping up with the times, it's nice for a poll to see if maybe, it's prediction and, it gives you an idea of where [00:08:45] things are headed. But to really measure consumption based on polls at this point in time, it's like trying to deliver the mail with Pony Express. I, it's just in an era of digital everything, the fact that we're [00:09:00] still using these analog things to measure, consumption is, I, it's just insanity. Marion Ranchet: We did an episode in March last year exactly at this same time. And, if you remember, we, [00:09:15] called it, Measurement is a Hot Mess. It looks like it's even messier. But, okay, let's see how this unfolds. Very interesting, to see this, happening in the us. Let's take a quick look at what happening in the UK because we've had some news. Evan Shapiro: When Channel [00:09:30] 4's, CEO, Alex Mayhan left, we talked about who should take that job. And we also talked about how, and you, you, this is one of your predictions at the early part of this year is that there's this tremendous amount of leadership transition happening in public service media around the world. And last year, [00:09:45] or yeah, last year, Tim Davey announced that he was leaving not by his own choice necessarily, because of controversy at the BBC. And there's been this great swirl as who's taking the job. And it's, you and I both said, it's time to [00:10:00] put digital natives at the head of these major public service media organizations, and it seems like the BBC may have been listening to us or not, but they hired Matt Brittin, who was the ex-president of Google, in Europe. Marion Ranchet: Yep. [00:10:15] Evan Shapiro: so this is somebody who has actually worked in traditional broadcasting, but then spent a, really successful career at Google, running their enterprise in Europe. I think this is a brilliant, brilliant choice. I think he is the, [00:10:30] the right person for that job. I don't know why he took the job. It's the hardest job in media. It's hard to win at this gig, but I think, this is somebody who's made a really nice. Amount of money in his career, and he probably sees this as public [00:10:45] service, which is what the job really is. I think Tim Davy did a really nice job for the lion's share of his tenure there, but it is time to hire someone who comes from pure digital and understands that world in this moment of time. I'm understanding, you were in [00:11:00] London last week and his name, Matt Britain's name was being floated all week long, I think leaked by the BBC as trial balloons to see how it was gonna go. But what's the sense there? Marion Ranchet: Yeah, honestly, quite fascinating, to [00:11:15] see that they made that move. 'cause I've said it, yes, at the top of the year we're seeing a new generation of CEOs. But what we've seen is we have Priya Dogra Channel 4, but she was. At Sky, and she was at HBO, then, [00:11:30] was at, he's gonna be the new CEO at the RTL. But those were still people within the broadcasting world. This one takes it one step further and you are going for, [00:11:45] a bit for the big bad company, right? Because, so I was in London and fascinating to see that this is a frenemy relationship. People know they have to work with Google, know they have to work with YouTube, find a [00:12:00] way to do that, but are at the same time, not happy with the way those relationship actually unfold on a daily basis and are all saying, yes, the audience is there, but the money is not. Or, there's so many things that, actually [00:12:15] folks, at YouTube, Google in Europe can't really, do and tweak to make it specific for the region. A lot of the decision are still, made in the us so fascinating to see the Beeb, in [00:12:30] the hands of an ex Google, because it's a precious thing, the BBC, for the British. So it's gonna be exciting. I think we're gonna track him down and look at how he's doing. Evan Shapiro: I'm gonna try. Yeah. We have a lot of people in common, so I'm gonna really see if I can get him on the pod at [00:12:45] some point, yeah. It's gonna be fascinating to watch these two cultures. The, to his, to their credit, they, really threaded the needle here, which is they got somebody who understands the Beeb and, has lived inside these organizations previously and [00:13:00] also understands big tech. So I, think this is, I if there can be a perfect choice for this incredibly difficult job, when, Obama got elected president of the United States, the Onion printed a headline, which is black [00:13:15] man gets the worst job in the world. And I think this is a really interesting analogy. This, guy has probably one of the greatest challenges in all of media, but it's not a job he needed. [00:13:30] he didn't, he, this is a job he's taking, I think because he thinks it's his duty to do it. And I hope he succeeds. I, love the Beeb. I want them to survive. I've, been a very harsh critic of the last couple of years of [00:13:45] their lack ability, lack of ability to transition to digital. If there's anybody on earth who can pull this battleship into the modern era, I think it's this guy. Marion Ranchet: Nice. Okay. So you are betting on him. I love it. Okay. Now it's time to [00:14:00] move on our guests. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. Speaking of digital. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. I'm excited. Evan Shapiro: I Yeah, me too. Marion Ranchet: I worked hard. Evan Shapiro: You did. You chased his desk for some time, so congratulations. Marion Ranchet: It's been since last May. I wanted him at an event we were at in Spain. I was so keen, 'cause I see him as an [00:14:15] agent of change in the media industry. So we're gonna welcome on the pod, Jordan Schwarzenberger. He's the co-founder of Arcade Media. He's the manager of the Sideman, one of the most successful creator groups in history with [00:14:30] 244 million followers across all platforms. Your journey is incredible, Jordan, we cannot wait to spend the next 45 minutes with you. Welcome. Jordan Schwarzenberger: No, thank you so much for having me. very excited to get into it. And just to say as well, I do think that Matt [00:14:45] is the perfect for the BBC. To your point, they needed that tech bridge and somebody who has been in a movement of the cutting edge rather than from, we'll get into that sort of the legacy world out. I think that's been their [00:15:00] challenge and I'm, very equally as optimistic. Evan Shapiro: What's interesting about you is you're, the reverse translator, right? So you're taking creators and turning them into media companies, whereas he's gonna try to turn BBC into a creator. [00:15:15] it's a really interesting point of view that you have, and you've also been at it, you look extremely young, said the old white guy. But there, I do think what's interesting is you've come up at a, from a very young [00:15:30] age, through traditional media into digital, so you've worked on both sides of the industry. Can you just tell us about your origin story just a bit? When starting at 18 at Vice, right? Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah. yeah. To that point, It's, I've [00:15:45] been very fortunate because thinking about actually the creator space, a lot of creators haven't actually worked in traditional media companies. Whereas I was able to come through media in a traditional form and then into this space as it evolved out and became a fully fledged thing. So yeah, I'm 28 now, so I started my [00:16:00] career 10 years ago out of school, I went to go to start at university at King's College studying a degree ironically called Digital Culture, which is looking back a weird irony because it was so not digital and so not [00:16:15] culturally relevant. And what happened, I, had this instinct that it would be terrible and it, was, and I remember before going, I tried to find the one company that I could think of at school, which was a company I could maybe one day work for that I loved, and that was Vice at the time. This when Vice was, at its peak. When you're at school, you don't [00:16:30] really know about the industry. You dunno about the commercials and about the agency side versus editorial, any of those things you have to learn through really being in the industry and working. But I had Vice as a company in my head that was a great company and they had a role which was a creative, and I thought, hang on a minute, you get to work and make money being creative. I [00:16:45] dunno what it was, but that sounded great. Of course. That's what I wanted to do. So I emailed everyone that I could find advice through. A friend of mine actually, you had about 20 emails when he did work experience there in our year 10 work experience at school. And I asked him, please forward me the email you have. He sent me the [00:17:00] email with all of their names and then I emailed everybody and said, this is me. I'd love to come in for a coffee. This is all the different projects I'd been working on at school. I'd had a, I'd had a little music thing I'd done and I'd had a few blogs, had a film magazine, got invited to screenings, everything, these things I'd done when I was 15 to [00:17:15] 17. So I put all that together and said, look, can I come in for a chat? Went in for a chat with them. And that then led to me doing work experience with them over that summer before I then started at Kings in September. And then after, I learned more in those six weeks of advice, being on top of the world at that [00:17:30] point than I could ever have done at uni. And so then having to go from that back into uni and I was doing four days at uni, Monday to Thursday, days you're doing like an hour a day and spending a fortune on those hours. But then every Friday I was vice. It was this funny dichotomy of digital culture degree [00:17:45] at Kings like doing like nonsense stuff that made no sense. And then actually working at the heart of it at Vice every Friday and very quickly I was like, this is where I wanted to be. And it gotta, the Christmas party that year at Vice, which as you can imagine was quite a fun Christmas party being 18 at Vice event. And [00:18:00] I remember speaking to the creative director and the associate creative director and the Imagine director of the agency, who's the person who brought me in and said to them look like, Hey uni, it's a waste. I feel like it's a waste of time. I love being here. This is where I get so, get so much from. And they said, look, we love to have you full time, as long as your parents won't [00:18:15] come and try and hunt us down with pitchforks for getting you outta uni. I said, no, that'll be fine. trust me. And they said, great, if you want, we would love to bring you on as a, junior creative to start. And I was, I think I was the youngest creative that, I was 18, right? So it couldn't mean anyone legally younger than me. [00:18:30] And so I started with them. I literally went home the next day, told my parents they were totally fine and they trusted what I was saying and dropped out and then didn't come back after Christmas. And started at Vice in the January of 2016. And now that led to me, working there for three months actually before, [00:18:45] Ian Richardson, who was the managing director of Virtue in the UK, he took me for an ominous walk around the block. He was like, oh, do you wanna just come for a coffee? I can remember it now, do just come for coffee. And we end up walking around. And he said to me, look, I've been asked to go to LabBible to build their agency function and basically copy the similar model, but put it into that business [00:19:00] and LabBible for those, who don't know, was at the time the biggest Facebook publisher in the UK and around Europe. They had, yeah, 50% of 18 to 30 year olds were following them. This was in that Facebook moment when Facebook publishing became a thing. And look, I'm 18. I said, yeah, for [00:19:15] sure, let's go. He asked me if I wanted to join him and I went with him and started at lad and then LabBible grew over a year and a half that I was there from being this sort of scrappy FHM 2.0 type business into a fully fledged media company with an [00:19:30] editorial and a commercial team and an agency function. And it brought out really well. And, Joy Ride, which was the name of our little agency model inside of it, did, played a real, really significant role in that. And now, then Lab went on to go and, float publicly for three 60 million and is now the biggest sort of Facebook [00:19:45] led publishing business in the world. But then about a year and a half in, I was like, look, I'm 19 now. I know, everything. I know what I'm doing. I can go start my own thing. Obviously I didn't, but I thought I did. And so I decided to take the experience of work with brands my age, which I [00:20:00] saw as a real differentiating point for me, being that I was young enough to have worked in the industry and understood it, and understood the economics and how to engage with brands, how to sell campaigns, how to, translate, commercial objectives with editorial output. I, that's what, that [00:20:15] was my role as a creative in both of those agency structures. And so I went and started my own Gen Z agency to help brands connect with Gen Z. So I did that in 19, it was called Roundabout. It was the first one obvious. It was kind at the time 'cause I was the youngest Gen Z entering the workforce. And I'd done enough within the year [00:20:30] and a half to be able to go and do that. Evan Shapiro: What year was this? Jordan Schwarzenberger: 2017. Evan Shapiro: Before people were really talking about Gen Z. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah, exactly. That's it. 'cause I was the only Gen Z in the industry really. I was one of very few. So I was able to then translate that and said, actually there's a moment for me to [00:20:45] be relevant. And I'd understood that actually you can have relevance at the age I was at for a limited amount of time before you then become old and part of the machine. But if I bottled that up and turned that into something, which people could buy in, that I was the generation that they would were to be targeting and trying to [00:21:00] reach and I can help them decipher and understand what we want because I'm talking to me and my friends effectively. Then that could be quite compelling. So I did that, had a great six months doing that. Working with MTV and Boiler Room and Dugout, which was a football publisher at the time that then became Football Co. [00:21:15] and then through that process ended up gonna a company called James Grant. And James Grant was at the time the biggest sort of TV management company in the uk. And they looked after everyone in, across ITB and Channel 4 and some of the biggest presenters, [00:21:30] people like your Anton Dex, Keith Lemon, Patty McGinnis, your Holly Willoughby, Philip Sko. Don't say that anymore, but Philip Sko, the sort of your slate of, of, real, sort of headline presenters and TV talent. But then they'd also just acquired a music agency in the States called Dexstar, which has [00:21:45] Steve Aoki and a bunch of other, DJs, Blink 182. They'd also acquired Troika. Were about to, which is, looking back is really tragic that business fell apart. But Troika had everyone now who's doing unbelievably well from an acting side. Everyone from a Daniel Kalua, Michael Fastbender, [00:22:00] Karen Gillan, Richard Madden, Matt Smith. They had Anya Taylor Joy, unbelievable roster of actors and scripted talent. And that sadly fell apart, partly due to the acquisition into YME. But then, from there, I, realized, hold on, talent, people, [00:22:15] personality brands paired with social was effectively a new model of publishing. And it occurred to me that the model of lab, bible, the model of vice, there's no difference to the model of really a business like a James Grant, because you look at that and you say, there's 200 [00:22:30] clients across the roster, each of them have a million followers, 1.5 million, whatever it might be. They've collected them just by virtue of being present on tv, when TV obviously had its cultural dominance at that time. And if you turn them into media brands and if you work with brands as a publisher would, and you in integrate them into original [00:22:45] formats and franchises and shows and IP, then that's a, massive opportunity that currently is not even being thought about because at that time anyway, are still largely to this day, but less so, all of those, the talent, we don't, I don't really the word talent, but the, the, presenters, et cetera, [00:23:00] they were looking at themselves as just. run and go and pay for play presenters rather than having any media of any value. They couldn't, they didn't know that was valuable. And so that was my role really to come in and help them to feature proof and to think in all of those ways. And we started off as, an agency [00:23:15] play through Roundabout. And then I loved it so much that I joined them as their chief creative officer in, at the beginning of 2018 to lead centrally that transformation into this new world. So yeah, and that was amazing. I loved every minute of it. It was four years. It was, I consider that like my business degree that I was, 19, [00:23:30] 20 when I started there. And now I know what that must have been like as well, having a 20-year-old like C-suite person coming into a business full of like actual grownups going who the hell is this kid? But they're all very nice, very patient with me. And, yeah, we loved it. My, doing things like, bringing in people like Amelia [00:23:45] Dimoldenberg, obviously Chicken Shop Date, signed her there. That was the first thing I ever did because I'd met Amelia through LabBible and then we tried to buy chicken shop date for 25 grand or something stupid. And she thankfully said no. But then we, I had a number and we stayed close and I thought actually she's obviously, [00:24:00] Say no surprise, she's had the best years of her career since I left. But at the time it was, actually you've got, I think she had 20,000 followers on social and maybe Chicken Shop Date had a hundred thousand subscribers. But you've got a cultural property that's really resonating because it had been going viral on Lad. And that's what that was [00:24:15] great about Lad, right? You got to see what, where the cultural temperature was because you saw the engagement towards things like Chicken Shop Date or the Chicken Corner Serve. It was an interesting Chicken Corner Serve show that came out here with a creator who reviewed chicken shops, went massive. It was big before this stuff was big. And you saw that [00:24:30] on LabBible bubbling and bubbling maybe three or four days before it became a massive thing because you could just see it was like a, trend pull, right? It was amazingly valuable. And Chicken Shop Date was another one. And so yeah, Emelia came over. People like Zach and Jay, Woody and Klein over time, people like Munya Chawawa, the Satirist, and [00:24:45] various other creators or creator first talent who could expand into the more mainstream. That was really the role. And yeah, my job was also to launch people at an deck on TikTok. What's the strategy for that? How do they become more relevant on social? How can they build, new formats and franchises, et cetera, [00:25:00] podcasts, people like happy, my happy baby, Giovanni Thatcher, all that kind of stuff. So my role is really helping all the different divisions to future-proof themselves. And then fast forward, to 2018 and had my first baby with my wife. And I know I felt as if I was at a point of reflection [00:25:15] personally, where I was looking for my time back a little bit, or to have more control over my time. I felt like I, I'd learned so much, but was more servicing now rather than really innovating and being as entrepreneurial. And it was just a seed that was planted and then was ultimately fulfilled by meeting Sam and Aaron. [00:25:30] Aaron, who was in the accountancy side of that business. And then he'd gone off to managing TikTok is just when TikTok became a thing from being, Musicly. And then he met Sam, who is our third co-founder in Arcade. And Sam has basically been the YouTuber accountant for the last 15 years. He's looked after [00:25:45] everybody, the Sideman, the v one of the Brick Crew era. his best friend at school was Marcus Butler, who was a big YouTuber. His friends are Zoe in AFI days, and he built, builds this roster as they start making money of everyone. And so he'd always seen the Sidemend as a massive opportunity. [00:26:00] I've obviously grown up, I'm 28, so we've grown up with the Side Bend and YouTubers as being the most culturally relevant people in culture. But there was no infrastructure around them at the time. They had no one building their business. They had zero staff, they had non-exclusive agency relationships and nothing [00:26:15] else. I mean they had a, the merch business, Sidemen and clothing, but they didn't have any infrastructure or any business. And we sat down the three of us, 'cause Aaron met Sam and we came together on a Zoom call just during COVID as it started to cool off. We said, look like we can go and speak to them and actually propose set, like really building their business for them [00:26:30] and helping them to go from where they are to, an actual company with people and infrastructure and a vision and a strategy. Because for creators, like they, they're never, they're not from the world of business. They don't come from sort of corporate infrastructure view. They actually, they rely a lot on their, accountants. [00:26:45] So Sam and then a lawyer typically, often Sheridans, who are both of our lawyers, and obviously Sam being Sam to help them with that stuff, but they don't have people really building for them. So the opportunity was take the methodology of YMU and the sort of strategy led approach to building brands around talent and bring that to [00:27:00] the Sidemen. And so we sat there on Zoom with them all, which quite intimidating. The first time we jump on Zoom is seven because there's seven of them. It's just a lot. But they love the vision. The whole aim was, look, we're not gonna even focus on brand deals. Like you have a number of people doing brand deals, so we're gonna build your own brand so that you [00:27:15] never have to do a brand deal again, and let's go on the journey together long term. And they said yes. So yeah, fast forward and that initial strategy had I think 15 things in, there. And we spent the last sort of four or five years knocking through that list. It's gone from now zero to Sidemen Entertainment having [00:27:30] 55 people in that team, led by Victor, who's the CEO and he started off running side plus the membership club. He was the first hire we made on their behalf to run that membership club that was, doubled their revenue and was incredibly successful. Still is. It's three, four years in now and that's six [00:27:45] pounds, 99 a month start model, and it, has bonus content and a podcast and a sort of dedicated community, which is amazing to see. Besides the fried chicken chains got seven stores opening Glasgow and Liverpool this year. Got Singapore, Malaysia, and all coming, [00:28:00] India coming too. Evan Shapiro: I think there, there's something central there though, which is, I think there are a lot of people who think that creators are just basically influencers that it's not a professional job. So there's that part of it. But then there's the other part of it, which is [00:28:15] when they think about big creators, they think it has to be pure scale and ads. And that's just the tip of the spear of a business. So can you talk about, the talent at the center of the IP hub [00:28:30] and how, really clicks and views is really just a kind of small part of vanity metrics and the business enterprise is much larger than that? Jordan Schwarzenberger: So when I always say that management is the icing on the cake, right? But you have to be the cake as talent or as great. And the [00:28:45] challenge often is there can be a reliance and a dependence on third parties and in reality, right? The Sidemen at seven years was already absolutely massive. You walk down any street and they get mobbed. They've been building organically themselves. They've bootstrapped an audience up to scale. So then when you have an audience [00:29:00] that's connected to you through consistency over seven years of content and through being incredibly consistent around, for example, Sidemen Sunday, their, weekly Sunday show, which we're thinking probably is the biggest show every Sunday in the UK in terms of the numbers, if you were to actually look at it fairly. But obviously there's a [00:29:15] TV bias, which we can talk about, we talk about measurement, et cetera. That maybe doesn't, it doesn't even come to the equation, but it gets, five to 10 million views a week. And if you look at the consistency of that alone, which has been going since 2019 as [00:29:30] every and as a Sunday show alongside more Sidemen, their second channel alongside reacts, there's an ecosystem of long form with YouTube at the core of it, which means that there is that ritual and the connection. I think the ritual's probably the biggest word I would say around, determining success for creators on YouTube. Are you part of someone's [00:29:45] ritual every week, every day? When are they gonna, when are you gonna show up in their lives in a way where they will spend time with you? And actually that's why streamers, we can get into this, the Kick streamers, Twitch streamers, that's why they're doing so well, is because they're part of people's daily ritual, or at least their weekly ritual. And you [00:30:00] are spending hours every week on the same time with these people. So you feel very connected because they're a part of your life. And I think Sideman did that amazingly well before us. And then we have this Lamborghini to then go and take out to the world. No one's seen this Lamborghini before. It's amazing. So if we didn't do what we did, I think it'd [00:30:15] be a failure. It's not so much us, it's, 90% them, I would say. But what we were able to do is to build an infrastructure around that to enable it to become automated. I think the biggest challenge is when you have that level of content going out, they have 15 pieces of content going out a week now.[00:30:30] And there are, there's multiple touch points with people in their lives across different times of the week. It's very easy for that to get overwhelming and for you to burn out. And so you need infrastructure, you need people running those, never mind the other businesses like Sides and XX Vodka, the venture capital fund, Upside, all [00:30:45] of that stuff is ancillary to the core YouTube business. And it was KSI, JJ who said actually, in a meeting once, that if the YouTube side falls, everything else falls. So double, triple, quadruple down on that. And if that starts to become poor, if we start [00:31:00] failing on that side, like scrap everything else almost. That was the essence of what you were saying. And there's truth to that. That is the absolute lifeblood, is that ritual connection that you have, ritual connection you have with an audience through YouTube is the long form platform. Evan Shapiro: Then why do the, then, why do the Netflix deal? [00:31:15] if YouTube is your main platform, why? Obviously I'm sure Netflix wrote a really nice check. But to your point, they're a self-fulfilling money machine unto themselves, right? What does Netflix add to the [00:31:30] equation? Jordan Schwarzenberger: I think Netflix adds a lot, actually, because, I, would always say if I was speaking to any creator, you wanna be on two platforms, Netflix and YouTube. The reason why Netflix is valuable is because they can editorially tailor content in a way that allows freedom for that content in a way that you don't have on YouTube. YouTube is [00:31:45] by virtue of the algorithm and the way that it trains the algorithm against an audience, you will be relatively capped with the audience size that you can generate based on the content you create. So there's only such, there's only so much that the Sidemen's existing content will grow beyond their existing base of an [00:32:00] audience unless they do content that takes that into new territories. For example, collaborations with people like Speed, right? That video gets 30 million views. The content that they can create in terms of their team, their time, like the works for them, but also for their core audience [00:32:15] might never break out into your 50 million, a hundred million. So in order to engineer that, those level of views into break out that audience, from a subscriber perspective, you have to be doing content that is very different, I think, to the content that they're doing. They've got a captive base of five to 10 million people who are there [00:32:30] consistently. Will that grow massively? Not really. And Vic actually said this. He said, I think at the time that they're relatively capped and that's wise because. What works for the seven of them to make it work for them every week across 15 different pieces of content is limited by YouTube and by the algorithm to a certain amount of audience. Whereas with [00:32:45] Netflix, you can do a show that can be editorially pushed and YouTube is never editorially, or they have done in the past. They've flooded back and forth between are they editorial, are they just a platform? And they did the commissioning side with originals, then they backtracked on that, and now they're just, they, remain neutral. And so it's all driven by [00:33:00] the algorithm. Whereas on, on Netflix, they can push, they can recommend, they can serve content up in a way that pushes, puts it into people's viewership, right? And that then opens up the audience. So I think that's why, and, yes, of course then the money to be able to de-risk it and to have it funded and to have a partner who [00:33:15] can scale it out. So I think there's, benefit. I'd say the audiences is, as Netflix said when we spoke to them, they're the same audience. It's just providing it in a different setting for them. And I think, yeah, in that sense it's been very valuable to have both. Marion Ranchet: And so on that if I, if you are able to [00:33:30] share a bit about the exact strategy you've had on there, meaning I'm looking at Mr. Beast and what he did with Amazon. He built something completely new for Prime. What was your approach to those who don't [00:33:45] necessarily, were not watching the Sidemen on YouTube. What's the difference in terms of the, programming, the creativity you've put into this? Does it work as a flywheel or is it in a bit in silos? Also because Netflix [00:34:00] loves to be very exclusive about the content that it invests in. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah, so it was an interesting one. I think it set a bit of a blueprint actually for the way that Netflix works with creators. Because the interesting thing is the Sidemen don't need Netflix. And this is, to your point, Evan, like [00:34:15] that's the leverage point. That's different today. The Sidemen don't need Netflix. It helps and it is value adding because it works for them. But in theory, they released inside on YouTube, they were having half a million people wait in the lobby for the episode by the time it got to Thursday in that [00:34:30] week, because there was such demand live for people to watch it on YouTube. So they had the captive audience. It did incredibly well season one, it was the most viral thing in the country. And that was all driven by their own distribution,and their own funding. But ultimately with Netflix, it had to therefore work for that. Are they gonna [00:34:45] creatively empower that show? Are they gonna make sure that it's funded to improve it and go beyond the amount that Sidemen would be willing commercially to put in? Because, the show probably cost a million and a bit to make season one. But the Sidemen didn't make that back commercially. It would've probably taken a couple of seasons to get brands involved and then that's a lot [00:35:00] of work has to go in to cover costs and then make a profit. Could have been done. But again, the audience in the capping of that audience. With YouTube, the numbers are, with the segment, it's already so big. There's only so much more that it could probably grow from that point. So from a brand perspective, and that'd be about building confidence in the market and working with the [00:35:15] WPs of the world, et cetera. And it could have been done, but there's a, I guess there's a sense of risk that comes with that. That means that they can't then look at the next thing. So for us, and for the Victor really, and for the boys, it was around how do they create new IP that they can test and distribute themselves and then graduate up [00:35:30] to Netflix for that global editorial distribution, which isn't capped to the algorithm and doesn't have those, boundaries, which the algorithm does place around content and how it has to be made for it to work and break out. So I think the combination of the two, but then also what's great is the leverage of, but ultimately, if you [00:35:45] guys don't want it. The Sidemen can always go and distribute it themselves, means that the deal structure becomes slightly different. It means that the, the conversation around the future becomes different. And also the IP is the Sidemen's. It's the Sidemen's IP they made it for, they made it already existed. So similar to Miss [00:36:00] Rachel or maybe Mark Rob and some of these other deals where you, Netflix have been I think, very innovative in the way that they're not trying to land grab with creators because they know that this IP already existed. The value we're getting was already there. So they're almost taking the benefit of the tapes that they're making. But they're not trying to own Miss [00:36:15] Rachel. They're not trying to own, they couldn't do that. And they couldn't do it with the Sidemen neither. And I think that's a healthier relationship, I think. Marion Ranchet: So they're giving you a platform to be creative in different ways. You are releasing a new season just this week or just last [00:36:30] week, right? Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah, so season three came out, season three of the UK version came out on Monday this week and went to number one overnight, which is great. Marion Ranchet: Good for you. And what, when you're saying that they don't need Netflix and that they have an audience already, [00:36:45] have you seen numbers showing that, it has had a bit of an a Netflix effect. It's something that we see very often. It's always the same example as this TV show called Suits. it's been existing for years, but the minute it [00:37:00] was on Netflix, a when, gangbuster everywhere because Evan Shapiro: It's same thing. Yeah. It happens every time. Are you seeing the same thing you seeing the same thing? Jordan Schwarzenberger: I don't think so. With, you know what? Interesting. I don't think so. I don't think the Netflix effect, and even interestingly for, I, don't think it's as, [00:37:15] the way that media and culture shifted. I don't think the scarcity of Netflix exists in the same way that it did. I think, I see it almost as it's one part of a bigger content world that you're consuming, but it doesn't have that sort of special feeling in the same way because it exists amongst so much noise that you're watching. And so back [00:37:30] in the day, I say back in the day, five years ago, six years ago, a decade ago, a show on Netflix would be the biggest, most talked about thing in the world. We can get onto the idea of the monoculture and that shift away from that sort of central institutional media landscape, but it means that, for example, the talent on Inside, I [00:37:45] remember you look at their socials and maybe if you were to watch a reality show on Netflix five years ago, every person who goes on that show gets a lift of this. That doesn't happen anymore. Like they don't really, they maybe grow a little bit and they get the DMs. Evan Shapiro: In fact the opposite. They're bringing the lift to Netflix. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Exactly. [00:38:00] Evan Shapiro: They're the lift. and let's, dig into the, to the monocultural thing for a second. I was on a call yesterday with one of the most important production companies and management companies in Hollywood. Very traditional. And I was talking [00:38:15] about how they have to start to understand how to go direct to consumer before they take a pilot out to sell. They have to build a community around a either artist or a piece of IP. And that after having done so, after having become undeniable on a social [00:38:30] video platform or a podcasting platform, then the gatekeepers, the greenlighters will all come pound on their door. And this was such a kind of unusual way of thinking for them, but it's how you think. And it's because Hollywood [00:38:45] and Fleet Street, you know that those as the center of the monoculture, that's completely dead. You have to go out and build it directly with your own consumers before you become culturally relevant. Am I getting that right? Is that the right way of thinking? Jordan Schwarzenberger: [00:39:00] 100%. I think it's, everything exists in a decentralized world, where you don't have central distribution and audience that's captive anymore. So the audience of cinema used to be relatively stable because people would consistently go to the [00:39:15] cinema as the only place that they could experience X film or X media. And so it had a rhythm and a consistency. Same for linear distribution on TV. Talk about the UK TV landscape, is a good example of this whereby the numbers have just slid and slid. And every time you look at [00:39:30] comparables for a comic relief, right? 2 million viewers, the lowest in their history and it peaked before, I dunno, 13 million. 15. So like you see this decline or something like Saturday Night Live UK, which could have embodied this, right? Whereby they've actually came out 10 years ago, it'd be the biggest show and most talk about it was [00:39:45] brilliant. I didn't watch it live. Probably part of the problem. I didn't watch it live, had 250,000 viewers. That was the overnights, 250,000 viewers. And that show must have cost a fortune in terms of the staff and the writers and everything else. So you've got this mismatch between the [00:40:00] audience that is within the distribution that is still incredibly well funded and arguably overfunded and overpaid for by brands, with an audience that just isn't there because they've moved on and they've moved to decentralized choice at scale with five or six or seven platforms that they're consuming on every single day. [00:40:15] So the competition for people's mind share and their attention is just so vast that no longer can you rely on those old forms of institutional distribution, which means Evan Shapiro: That, yeah, I watched most of the Saturday Night Live from the UK on TikTok. Watched and it was really good, by the way. Very [00:40:30] funny, very timely to a certain extent. Had they reversed trended that and done the sketches at a low cost on TikTok first with the same exact talent and built an audience there and then launched on Sky, they probably would've done a [00:40:45] lot better. And that's now the new norm. That, I mean that's how your whole agency works, right? Jordan Schwarzenberger: A hundred percent. But also, even that or whether it went on YouTube and became a YouTube first property, right which was live, there's a need for that. There's a need for more of that. But also the had economics [00:41:00] that match that. And this is the reality of the industry, right? The economics that we used to in production in, in terms of the team you can afford and the talent you can get like that has to measure against the real, the income reality of YouTube, which is relatively capped. [00:41:15] there are ways of overcoming that. Like we've got, for example, in our business we have a business called Creator Access, which, has a partner sales license from YouTube. We can directly sell to market, but that's a whole journey to take the traders that a WPP or a publicist on in relation to the content and the channels that you have [00:41:30] access to. In that case, look though, we can take a CPM from a 12 dollar auction up to a 50 dollar, 60 dollar, whatever it might be, and sell directly. And, but that's very bespoke and that's quite case by case. Sky actually have one, which is why I don't understand if they'd have. I get, because the, [00:41:45] advertisers and the amount that they would have to sell sold the show in order to justify the budgets would need linear, because that's still the default. But you're dealing with 250,000 viewers and actually the amount of noise they were generating, the amount of social impressions, 250,000 live viewers versus, 1.9 billion they've [00:42:00] said in terms of social impressions, that's a mismatch there and shows the audience is here, is not over there. And the problem is the industry still thinks that the audience will come over and they just won't, I'll not watch it on Sky One, I'll watch it on clips and most people will. And so you're in the wrong place. You're simply not [00:42:15] distributing the show to where the audience is today. And that's again, this kind of monoculture transition that we're into, we're in at the moment whereby the old world needs to economically check itself against where the audiences are today and find a way to generate more value from those [00:42:30] eyeballs and from where the audience is now, which is ultimately YouTube and social first. I did also think though, that if it was on Netflix, it would've been probably the biggest thing. And actually that's because Netflix is again, what audiences are. But 250,000 viewers and that's not uncommon. Comment Relief. Britain's Got Talent, look, go through the list of [00:42:45] shows and they're all in this point. So yeah, I think that the monoculture is, I think an interesting way of understanding the shift from ultimately centralized media to decentralized media and the lag that's taken place in terms of brands and the industry, recognizing that fact [00:43:00] and going to where the audience now is, which is definitely not where they were 10 years ago. Marion Ranchet: And so you've actually, you've taken a step forward just a few weeks ago in building that flywheel with talent and IP at the center with the [00:43:15] Creator Access. Do, you wanna tell us a bit more about that? Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah, for sure. Creator Access is essentially the next era we think of, selling Creator Media as TV. Like the way that we view it is that creators on YouTube are simply TV [00:43:30] 2.0, 3.0, it's TV for the generation that are consuming primarily through the pipe of YouTube versus through the pipe of Sky or Virgin or Freeview, right? So it's simply the transition of that and what obviously they will be, right? It's infinite content, it's decentralized. There are [00:43:45] much, much better technical products, whether it's live premiers, et cetera. Podcasting is all it's a much better experience. Of course it's doing so well. That's why YouTube is, the biggest entertainment company in the world right now, even though they don't produce any entertainment. And, I think [00:44:00] for that though, you have a world of brands that are trying to reach an audience that's now moved. Who's helping them to move with those times, and how are they getting access to the Channel 4, the ITV, the Channel 5 of this new era? So Creator Access is. Our propose, our [00:44:15] proposition to solve that. And that's with a partner sales license from YouTube, which for those who don't know, it's quite a technical thing. But as I was saying, it allows us to directly sell the media within our CMS, which is the Content Management System on YouTube to brands and set the pricing and set the takeovers and set the [00:44:30] integration ourselves. So that means that rather than a brand buying an audience demographic through YouTube, they can buy a specific channel with us. So they can buy Sidemen, which you could equate to a Channel 4. They can buy Channel 4 with us. And they can buy that in a way that, let's say for the World Cup, a [00:44:45] brand might come to us and say, we want 75% takeover of all of the Sidemen content over the World Cup. Or we say, we've got these shows coming out and a brand can in advance, buy share a voice and buy takeovers over that content, which means far greater customization of, [00:45:00] planning. And it allows us to do that for Sideman, but also other creators as well, which means that we in theory, become the destination that brands can buy premium YouTube inventory from the best creators in the country and, our, and also the world. So that's our, that's our sort of, yeah, what we think is the [00:45:15] next part of formalizing that. Evan Shapiro: There are a couple of nuances around this. First of all, you represent more than just the Sidemen. Not just the Sidemen, but you represent a bunch of creators beyond them. And I think that it's crucial to recognize that. But then secondarily, [00:45:30] two things. One, I think you're the only non broadcaster in the UK that has this license, this partnership program from YouTube, correct? Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah. So Sky, ITV, Channel 4, and now us that have one. Evan Shapiro: And, I, when we talked to, and [00:45:45] Marion and I have had this debate numerous times on this podcast, which is the mainstream publishers, they say, we're only making pennies on, on, on YouTube. We can't make the money there. I tell them my answer is, you are selling it [00:46:00] incorrectly. You do not know how to sell the platform. You don't have to worry, you don't have to suffer along with $2 CPMs. You can really name your own price if you have the right intellectual property and you know how to [00:46:15] package it. There are big broadcasters who have the, this partnership, the partners program license here in the US and in the UK and around the rest of the world. They just, they're not selling it and packaging it correctly. So they're not getting the CPMs [00:46:30] and they're not doing the branded takeovers. They're not doing all of the things that you're doing. So can you explain how you can turn YouTube sales like that into an actual proper business that is just as good, if not better than today's television business? Jordan Schwarzenberger: A hundred percent. And you know what, [00:46:45] this is going back to my sort of career and my start at Vice and LabBible, it's the exact same setup that you need. And it's a leap I think, from a lot of people in the space who don't, maybe don't come from those worlds of publishing in a new media that doesn't have the luxury of just being the [00:47:00] media that everyone trusts already. So you have to prove the case. So I think the way I would set, the way I would suggest one sets up and the way we're setting up is you have two wings, right? You have editorial and you have commercial. And the editorial wing is about the creativity and about the output that's building the audience and nurturing [00:47:15] that without the brands. And then you have obviously your commercial agency function, which is the filter or I guess the vehicle for brands to engage with that audience. This was the thing at Lad, this is why we came to set up Joy Ride.[00:47:30] A brand coming to LadBile and see we want to promote X on your page and her's some money. Gets you 10% of the potential value where you get to a hundred percent or 90% is when you say, right this is the brief that you have. Here's a creative campaign that can work around that brief, that can engage this audience because of this strategic rationale that we put aside and the data and [00:47:45] inside that we've leveraged to actually interrogate that brief for the audience we're trying to reach and the challenges and the ways that you need to connect for your product to land. And here's inventory that we have, here's a matrix of inventory that covers social for [00:48:00] example LabBible nowadays will cover, Facebook, will cover Instagram when that became more efficient, but also cover on site ads. We cover, long form integration, short form integrations, and you build a matrix that enables a compounded CPM to be quite high. The compound value [00:48:15] quite high, but for the brand, so the effective CPM is efficient for them. And then you can do things like discounts and you can have, economies of scale in that model, but you need the inventory to do it. And this is the problem. There's not enough inventory. And we've talked, we talked about this before, that, YouTube requires more inventory than we think. And [00:48:30] to make a media company, you need media company inventory because brands need impressions and they need compounded impressions to build a plan that's meaningful and of high value. So one video is not enough. One integration's not enough. You need packages, you need economies of scale. And also you need planning. And this is the bit that most creators are [00:48:45] struggling with, is they can't plan enough in advance because the Sidemen have 55 people in their entertainment team, they can have a content plan for the next six months in terms of Sidemen Sunday content, more Sidemen content, Sidemen. They can measure that all out. A planner might be setting their budget in Q1, or four [00:49:00] Q3 or four in Q1. So if you don't have the properties to sell 'em or you don't have the consistency and the cadence, you are not, it's not gonna work. Which is why so many creators struggle with integrations and they can only really work with typically digital products. You know, games or VPNs, that kind of stuff where there's a [00:49:15] trackable ROI versus being able to go to a mediator, like a publicist or a WPP or any of the bigger planners who are managing hundreds of millions of pounds for brands and engage 'em at a much higher level. Which is what we're doing. So we're taking Sidemen, the biggest goal for us from an owned and operated perspective [00:49:30] is taking them on the same journey. That was the LabBible journey. That was the Vice journey. How do you take the inventory you have and the vast amount of audience that you have, and build that into a media company that can be understood by planners. And that's the bit the most creators don't do, and they need to do. I spoke at Adobe's Creator Live the other day, and [00:49:45] I said exactly that. Like creators need to think like media companies and they need to be bought and understood on a plan and on a media plan. And most creators don't even know what media plan is, but that's how media is bought. It's bought on a spreadsheet table essentially based on CPMs, effective CPMs, economies of [00:50:00] scale, et cetera. And that's what a planner needs in order to take that and get a much bigger budget signed off. Otherwise, you'll always be dealing with the small sort of trickle down from influencer agencies who I think will die in a few years anyway, but those sort of small influencer agency budgets, which is so little in terms [00:50:15] of value versus the media that you probably have in your. Evan Shapiro: But let me ask you to teach you now, that's how you teach creators how to think like a media company. Now reverse this. Let's pretend you're not talking to creators and you're talking to traditional media who are trying to grapple with their inability to get the same [00:50:30] CPMs on YouTube. How do you teach them how to think more like you do around their approach to YouTube? So they understand media plans, they understand how to plan out in advance, but they don't know how to package in social video. What's the lesson that you could give them? Jordan Schwarzenberger: I think it's, [00:50:45] it probably goes back to that point on cadence and volume and inventory still, like I'd imagine and you see most, right? There isn't enough inventory across social, across long form, across all the different touch points that you can have with an audience. So how are you putting that all into a matrix of different, in different touch points and then [00:51:00] building out enough editorial content consistently to then create that inventory organically first. And so how are you with your rollouts? How are you making sure that there's enough spread in terms of content across different platforms in different forms? Whether it's stories, whether it's you know, short form video, whether it's [00:51:15] carousels on Instagram, whether it's, Facebook, whatever it might be. How do you have enough inventory touch points from one long form episode, let's say, if you're dealing in long form, that can then build out a compelling plan? Because ultimately plan is what impressions. And they wanna see a big impression number that can be guaranteed. Are you [00:51:30] getting to those bigger numbers by being creative in the way that you're rolling out content? Especially today when there isn't as much, vanity around feeds or around, what you post. It's more about volume, to be honest, more than anything else. Are you producing enough and then also packaging it in a way that's creative enough as well, that often it's the [00:51:45] simple badging exercises that's old. How are you into integrating brands into content in a way that is more creative and is more thoughtful versus just the reads? That kind of read culture is very much a 10-year-old thing of, our brand just sponsors and badges. Now how are you bringing a brand into the story and the narrative? Which is [00:52:00] why I was saying that agency function, which is the key for us, that creative function is the key. That's what built Vice into a 4 billion company was being able to help brands as a creative partner who understands this world, not just as a, oh, we have this media and you can [00:52:15] buy it and badge onto it. It needs to have that creative interrogation and the ability to translate the challenges of the brand into the editorial in an authentic way. And that's, that bridge is the bit that most people miss. And that's what is missing both ways. Typically, the more traditional don't have it going into [00:52:30] social and creative verse, and creators definitely don't have it going into traditional brands. Marion Ranchet: And this past year, and especially in the UK have to say, we've seen traditional media invest more into YouTube and be a bit less, this is just a promo platform. [00:52:45] Really investing, building teams, et cetera. We've had several of these, people, whether that's BBC Studios, Channel 4 on the pod, more, more, generically what have you seen? Are you seeing [00:53:00] good practices, mistakes that are being made by those companies? And this time less so on, on the media portion of it, but more while the buying, the selling against inventory, but more on the content strategy itself, on how they're being [00:53:15] presented on that plan. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah. look, we are yet to see BBC and that plan. Obviously I know the team there. and, I think they're going about it in a, in an ambitious way. they'll even, they'll be the first to say it's probably 10 years too late. But they're going for it now and I think, [00:53:30] it always baffled me that there wasn't more of an originals focus on YouTube. Especially for the BBC where they are not measured in the same way. They're not measured by money as a commercial broadcaster would be in terms of ROI. They just need audience affinity. Obviously need to manage budgets, but there's more freedom [00:53:45] there to take risks actually, which is the value of the BBC that they're not beholden to commercials in the same way. So we're yet to see that, I think Channel 4, 4.0 has done a great job actually in terms of building scale. I know the team there also really well, and I think [00:54:00] that they've done it in a brilliant way. The only thing that I've said to them, the only thing that I struggle with a little bit is that maybe if they'd spun out the assets into individual channels, it would've been a better use of the resource. And I do worry that there's a bit of broadcaster thinking creeping in. We're like, oh, it needs to sit all on one [00:54:15] channel. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Jordan Schwarzenberger: And I look at that and go, yeah, but guys, like you've invested millions into this channel. And you built all these formats. But YouTube is about consistency. It's about clarity of audience. And if they YouTube's not, it's not rocket science in this, in, in a way. And it's not about, there's not some, mythical [00:54:30] algorithm. Ultimately YouTube wants to take your content and over time find who the audience is for it. And so the more specific that content can be on that channel, the more likely it is to keep a retained audience, which is how the channel then grows and builds a proper community. Which is why podcasts do quite well and shows that have the exact same [00:54:45] thing every single day or every single week. But you always see people do it, the Telegraph do it. And I think The Telegraph have, I, think the Daily Tea, for example, I think is a really good example of a daily regular show that does this really well. But it frustrates the life out me that it's on the Telegraph channel, because you see that and then you have, [00:55:00] as an individual viewer, I'm going on that let's say, and then I'm, I'm not watching the next 10 things. So that is a signal to YouTube that you would say- Evan Shapiro: So you would say that the Daily Tea should have its own channel and that individual- Jordan Schwarzenberger: Hundred percent. Yeah. Evan Shapiro: That's a very broadcaster [00:55:15] mindset. Traditionalist mindset. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Yeah. And it's a broadcast mindset that all has to be aggregated into one central space. And the future of media is really that one person may have 15, 20, 30 media, like smaller worlds that they're engaging with versus, I engage with Channel 4. [00:55:30] It's when, no, I engage in Channel 4's, show, whatever the show is. Evan Shapiro: One show, exactly. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Exactly. And that world, or I engage in Chicken Shop date, or I engage in TrackStar, or engage in Subway Takes, or I engage with the Daily Tea or The Media Odyssey. Evan Shapiro: There's this thing that you said that there's not enough content out there. That there's [00:55:45] not enough. Yeah. I think that there, people look at YouTube or any of the other social platforms like it's infinite content, how could be adding more to it, be successful? But in reality, your theory is there's not enough good quality [00:56:00] inventory out there. And so the more good quality channels and IP that you can put into the marketplace, the more quality impressions in quality environments, the better off you're gonna. Jordan Schwarzenberger: A hundred percent. I think that YouTube is very underserved and I see this from, on a personal level, when I [00:56:15] watch content on YouTube, and I dunno again, how many people in the industry yet, it's always been a thing. How many people are actually engaging with YouTube every day? Like how many people are really watching content? How many people have sub, have channels that they love? I think probably fewer than we think in the traditional world actually. And if more people did they, they'd [00:56:30] realize that, oh, you run out of content quite quickly. If you are looking for more stuff, you might be, you may be, I dunno, whatever you're doing, whether you're listing and you have premium and you can list on your headphones or you're commuting, there might, there's probably, you get to a point, I think everyone probably does, who uses YouTube properly where they go, I want more, but it's not [00:56:45] here. And that's the signal that there isn't enough quality content because it's not just me saying that on a personal level. You see the sentiment online. A lot of people say the UK YouTube, for example, fell off and it's not very good because all the YouTubers have tried to become too optimized. But also there's not enough of them making [00:57:00] content. And the reason why is because YouTube is hard, right? It takes a lot of time, a lot of resources to get right, which is why the default is podcast because podcasts are relatively very easy from a production perspective in comparison to your big studio shoots and your out and about videos or your challenge [00:57:15] videos where there's a lot more planning and cost. So podcasts are relatively low risk. But if you take that out, there's still a massive lack, I think, of consistent regular programming that is of a high quality in nature that is part of your ritual every single day. And again, it goes also back to that point on, as I was saying, rituals, [00:57:30] which is the word of this new era, right? Are you involved? Are you in someone's life consistently? And you are showing up again and again for somebody. Every day or every week, and even every week is kind of outdated. And this is the bit that I think a lot of people need to realize that the [00:57:45] world of consumptions moving on to the point where we are watching so much more than we've ever watched. We're engaging with so much content and we have a craving for more. Like the human soul is insatiable in that sense. There is a never ending whole of does demand for more content. And so ultimately now the [00:58:00] expectation is to show up every day. And like streamers, if you think about streamers on Kick, Twitch, et cetera, why are they winning? They're probably winning the most out of anyone in content and, creators today. And the reason why is because they're showing up so much that you build a relationship and you have more mind share with your viewer. In [00:58:15] terms of rituals, I might watch somebody's stream. I don't actually watch that mainstreams myself, but you might watch a long form stream. You might then see the clips, you might then see them on this platform or that platform, and you're showing up again, so you can't not see this person. So you feel a little bit of connection to them. And in a world of total decent decentralization [00:58:30] and also saturation, connection is the key, which is why there's such opportunity. I would say the biggest opportunity today, it's all like what the Daily Tea do or what, streamers do, showing up every day, why they're not more daily shows. America's been way ahead of this for so long. I always look at the best example of this [00:58:45] probably in the world, regardless of opinion about them, is probably the Daily Wire actually American brought, conservative media network. They've been going since 2013, 14. And they had daily shows with personalities and they showed up every single day, 20, 30 minutes, 40 minutes [00:59:00] a day. And they built up to, at their peak, a subscription base of paid subscribers, 900,000 of them. Why? Because they had such a ritualistic consistency within people's lives. They were there every single day. So you feel connected to these people. You feel a relationship with them, [00:59:15] slightly parasocial, but you do. And you come to them, you have a reason to show up. They're part of your habit. And so getting into people's habits is the key. And people doing one, once a week podcast, is that enough? Is that enough in this world? Probably not. I don't think so. By the time it gets to it, is it even gonna be relevant to [00:59:30] someone? Whereas if you can find a daily habit from as a creator or as a broadcaster or a production company to get into people's lives consistently, you stand, I think, a much greater chance of being a part of their ritual, and therefore someone that they actually connect with and they want to engage with and support. Evan Shapiro: So Marion, [00:59:45] we have to go every day. We have to go. Marion Ranchet: It's a fascinating, that's the perfect, I wanted to ask you for final advice. I think that's an amazing advice. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I agree. Marion Ranchet: we could take that advice too. We should. We're putting one episode a week. [01:00:00] And it's been difficult already, Evan Shapiro: but, we do to, to, his point, to Jordan's point, we both post every day on LinkedIn. And that's why people have this parasocial relationship with us wherever we go. Marion Ranchet: Yeah, that's true. Evan Shapiro: Jordan, I, we, we have [01:00:15] learned so much from you mostly 'cause you put more words per second than any human I've ever met in my, Jordan Schwarzenberger: I said I speak quick. I speak quick. Evan Shapiro: No, you are a knowledge machine. Marion Ranchet: It's crazy. Evan Shapiro: I hope this is not the last time you come on the pod. We wanna [01:00:30] hear what's going on with your new enterprise. We wanna keep up to date with you. Again, you're an incredibly impressive, still very young man, so we really appreciate you spending time with us today. Thanks so much. Jordan Schwarzenberger: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Marion Ranchet: This was an amazing [01:00:45] episode of the Media Odyssey podcast. That was Evan Shapiro. Evan Shapiro: And that was Marion Ranchet, thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you again next week. Marion Ranchet: See you next [01:01:00] week.