Latest / The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education / Our thoughts on the last episode: Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill - May Update

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Our thoughts on the last episode: Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill - May Update · The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education

0:13
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the big Home
0:16
Ed conversations. You are here with myself, Kelly
0:19
Rig, home Ed mum of two and founder of Off Roading
0:22
Motherhood. I'm a qualified mindset coach
0:24
and I've got a real passion for working with families as they
0:26
kind of transition into the home Ed world.
0:29
And so a lot of what I do is supporting them with that.
0:33
And I'm joined as always by my good friend Ashley Venario.
0:35
So she's basically another fellow home Ed mum of three, an
0:39
ex primary teacher. And we started this podcast
0:43
because we were kind of just sick of talking about the myths.
0:46
We didn't want to talk about the little things anymore.
0:49
The the, I don't know, all the things that people ask us, the
0:51
typical questions as home educators get asked every time
0:54
we speak to people. And we wanted to talk about the
0:55
big stuff, the stuff that we care about, the stuff that
0:57
actually as alternative educators means something to us.
1:00
So we hope that as you kind of pull up a chair, join us at the
1:04
table, have a cup of coffee with us, that you actually feel like
1:06
you're part of that conversation.
1:07
Hopefully it will inspire you to think differently about what's
1:11
kind of going on in your world, maybe kind of open your mind to
1:13
a different perspective or offer you another thought.
1:16
And do remember that we always want you as part of this
1:18
conversation. So come and talk to us.
1:21
If you enjoy an episode or don't enjoy an episode and you've got
1:23
something you want to say, come and have a conversation with us.
1:26
I'll, I'll handle this big home Ed podcast on Instagram and
1:30
TikTok only. So you can always reach out to
1:33
us there. So hopefully we'll hear from you
1:34
a little bit after this one. The episode that you guys will
1:39
have already heard from last week was myself and Wendy, who
1:43
is from Education Otherwise. So she is the Co chair of
1:46
Education Otherwise and essentially she is an incredibly
1:49
intelligent woman. She just knows so much about
1:52
what is going on with the fight for our rights as home
1:56
educators. She's recently written a book as
1:58
well about kind of the history of home education.
2:00
So she's just an incredibly intelligent woman and
2:03
essentially I always find her really reassuring and it helps
2:06
me to come just get a bit grounded and to understand what
2:09
she's had to say. And obviously Ashley wasn't
2:11
there for the conversation. So she's had a catch up and
2:13
she's had a listen and essentially she's like, I've got
2:15
notes, I've got questions, I want to talk about it more.
2:18
So we thought we'd do a kind of reaction episode getting into
2:21
the conversation a little bit deeper, maybe kind of expressing
2:24
some of our concerns or frustrations or the ways it's
2:26
making us feel, the fears that we're feeling a little bit as
2:29
well. But also hopefully to kind of
2:30
further reassure you that the community is really strong and
2:34
that we all care so much about each other and about our
2:37
children that ultimately we we don't go down easily.
2:41
So I want to kind of really emphasize that.
2:44
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to kick it straight over
2:46
to Ashley and let her kind of she's going to kind of run us
2:48
through her thoughts because she had some really interesting kind
2:51
of reactions off the back of what Wendy had to say.
2:54
And we're just going to dig into them a little bit.
2:56
More. Yeah, thanks.
2:57
So I think that first of all, just like you were saying,
3:01
hearing from Wendy is always is such a treat and she just
3:06
approaches things in a manner that feels really easy to
3:09
digest. She breaks it down.
3:11
She is always so calming in her approach to things as well that
3:16
I just really appreciate hearing from her.
3:18
I think it allows people to really understand what's
3:22
happening in a way that doesn't feel aggressive or challenging.
3:25
And I, I love hearing from her. So huge thank you to Wendy for
3:29
for doing that conversation. And the first thing that really
3:32
struck me from early in the conversation was when she was
3:37
just talking about what we can do as home educators,
3:39
particularly in at this stage. And she mentioned that a
3:42
petition that needs 100,000 signatures.
3:45
And I admittedly, I'm not super tapped in and following what's
3:51
going on in terms of home education rights because it, it
3:54
is a lot to take in and it does cause anxiety and just another
4:00
mental load for me to carry around.
4:02
But I have not heard of this petition.
4:04
So that was something where I'm thinking, gosh, we, we can raise
4:07
awareness for that. That's something we can do.
4:09
We can pass it out to, to our little WhatsApp groups and, and
4:12
make sure that people are seeing it and sharing it with their
4:14
friends and family and other home educators.
4:15
So I think if we can just find that petition and and also any
4:20
of the open letters that you mentioned and link it here for
4:22
people that might allow them to access it as well if they don't
4:24
know about it. Yeah, I think we should
4:27
definitely get them out into the description for this episode so
4:29
you guys can find it and we'll certainly share it out into our
4:32
little community and the people who kind of follow the podcast
4:35
and that as well. I think one of the things that
4:37
we maybe are seeing a bit of a challenge this time, so many
4:41
people who maybe are new to the homeland community don't realise
4:43
that we've been fighting against this register and some of the
4:46
things that are in this current kind of children's well-being in
4:49
schools Bill for many, many years.
4:52
And actually the the register was put through a couple of
4:56
years ago. And Wendy Education otherwise
4:59
was the person who spearheaded the petition.
5:01
That was basically the biggest ever hand signed petition that
5:04
was submitted to government and we had it thrown out.
5:08
And essentially she has tried again, this time with the
5:12
support of lawyers and MPs and Lords and people who are 100% on
5:17
our side, who are paying attention to this fight and have
5:20
been with us for years. And they came up with this
5:23
petition to try and obviously get the right response from the
5:28
government. And what's what's really hard is
5:31
that it's a really positive thing that so many others this
5:34
time are aware of the fight, are putting their efforts in and
5:37
doing all the things that they are doing as well.
5:39
And I think one of the difficulties we find is that
5:41
when you've got a lot of different people who feel very
5:43
passionately about something, who are all working really hard
5:46
to do their various inputs into a fight, that maybe sometimes it
5:50
can actually spread it out and make it look a bit smaller.
5:54
And that's such a shame because ultimately I think what happened
5:57
last time is we had this really funnelled approach where
6:00
everyone just jumped on board the exact same thing.
6:02
We all hand signed this petition, had this one massive
6:05
petition put into government. And this time, I think lots of
6:08
people have been running petitions.
6:09
They've been doing lots of different open letters.
6:11
We've been seeing lots of people kind of putting out different
6:14
kind of words about it and all sorts of different things.
6:16
And so unfortunately that sometimes means that marches and
6:19
all sorts of other stuff. So lots of people have been
6:21
doing those great things, really powerful things, but you kind of
6:25
people tend to feel like they have contributed when they've
6:27
done one or two of those things and they don't necessarily need,
6:31
they don't feel like they need to do all of them.
6:33
And So what I guess I'm trying to kind of get across is that if
6:36
you have done one or two of those things, it's also worth
6:40
trying to pick a thing like the petition that we are all doing.
6:45
Everybody does that too, as well as whatever else you want to be
6:48
doing, an offering into the fight as well.
6:49
If you want to go to a March as well, great.
6:51
If you want to send a letter, great, whatever.
6:53
But maybe if we can all bring back a bit of a rally behind
6:56
this petition that's been put out and see if we can get those
6:59
numbers up, then maybe it will give us that oomph again and
7:03
show them how many of us there actually are that care about
7:06
this. And I think that's what's really
7:08
important here is, is to try and make sure that we that we
7:10
demonstrate the numbers of people who actually care.
7:13
And it isn't just home educators who care, it's teachers, it's
7:15
other parents. There are lots and lots of Lords
7:18
and MPs in that that aren't happy with this either.
7:20
And recognizing actually it's on doing a lot of good work that's
7:23
happened as well. So yeah, that's worth
7:26
considering. So we'll make sure we share that
7:28
petition and we will put it out into the into the actual
7:30
description of this episode. So if you haven't yet signed it,
7:33
let's let's rally behind it. Let's let's support Wendy like
7:36
we all did last time. And let's see if we can get that
7:39
up to the 100,000 signatures. I think that would be really
7:41
amazing to see that actually reach its goal.
7:43
So we'll definitely give it another big push.
7:45
Yeah, great points. And it sounds like getting to
7:47
100,000 actually means something.
7:49
It's not just a a target number. It it actually means they have
7:53
to talk about it. And so that's huge.
7:54
Like we can help for that. So yeah.
7:57
OK, great. And then the next thing, her
8:00
comment on the request to offer GCS ES testing at no cost to
8:05
home and children, because right now, obviously there is
8:08
currently a charge, but it's free if you're in school, in
8:11
traditional school. And the response that they don't
8:14
want this to encourage people to home educate.
8:18
So that's the reason for not offering it.
8:20
I was just like, I think by jaw drop because home educating is
8:23
legal. So what does that mean if
8:25
they're openly admitting to treating this group of children
8:28
differently because they're, they're choosing a different
8:31
legal path, They're just really showing their cards with that
8:35
one. And it's beyond upsetting to me.
8:37
It feels like punishment to me, frankly, and I I can't
8:40
understand how it's still allowed to be this way.
8:43
There should be an equal approach to each group, all
8:46
groups, and from a legal perspective, I can't understand
8:49
how it's not it. That to me does feel different
8:52
from home educating in the US and so I yeah, it just, it just
8:58
really, I was like, wow, that is a bold response that they gave
9:02
her. So yeah, unfortunately.
9:04
Sometimes as well, I think we forget that our our hang ups and
9:08
our stereotypes and our beliefs aren't all facts.
9:12
And the person who said that clearly has the belief that home
9:16
education is not what they want people to be doing.
9:19
They want them to send their kids to school.
9:21
And they may have reasons for those beliefs that stem from
9:25
positive reasons. They they may genuinely mean
9:27
that because they believe that a child in school is going to get
9:30
a better quality of education. They may genuinely believe that.
9:33
They do if they're saying that I have their belief.
9:35
I really hope so too. And I think the alternative is
9:39
that that person just just is just being judgmental.
9:44
And unfortunately, we can form an awful lot of our belief
9:47
systems based not at all off of facts, but 100% off of opinions.
9:52
And home education has had stereotyping thrown at it for
9:57
generations. I know that before I started
9:59
home educating like again, we don't, we don't talk about the
10:02
myths here, but we, we know what they are and we know what people
10:04
say about home educating families like we don't, I don't
10:07
need to even say them. I know that you will know and I
10:09
think ultimately if we have MPs and laws sitting there believing
10:13
these things about home education as if they are a fact
10:17
and we are sitting here going, no, please listen to us like
10:19
we're just good parents. We're just people who care about
10:22
our kids. And sure, we do want to do
10:23
things a little bit differently. And sure, we don't necessarily
10:26
teach them the full curriculum. And sure, we do sometimes allow
10:28
them to get to things a little bit slower than other people
10:30
might make their kids get to them.
10:32
Or we aren't so hugely focused on success and high earning and
10:36
we actually want them to do jobs that make them feel happy and
10:39
satisfied and allow them to have a well around in life.
10:41
Like, you know what I mean? Like sure, we don't necessarily
10:44
align with mainstream values. And that might seem a little
10:48
scary because I can understand how we form our mainstream
10:51
values as a society and we all like work so hard to attain
10:56
them. And ultimately, we actually,
10:59
often people aren't very happy when they are desperately trying
11:03
to attain high social standards. They, they actually would much
11:07
prefer to be a little scruffier or a little slower or to take
11:10
their time or to, to see their kids more or to rest more or to
11:14
nap sometimes instead of having to do loads of DIY or whatever
11:18
it is, right? Like we, we have all these weird
11:20
rules and expectations put on us.
11:22
And I think ultimately we're dealing with people here who in
11:25
that, that I'd say coming back around to what you said that we
11:27
don't want to encourage people to choose home education.
11:31
We have to therefore accept there is some level of agenda
11:35
behind that. It's, it's, there is a little
11:37
bit of manipulation going on and probably a lot, but with without
11:42
the kind of getting feisty about it, it's, it's recognizing that
11:45
ultimately that there could indeed be some agenda there.
11:48
And actually them being that transparent.
11:52
We cannot ignore that. We have got to recognize it as
11:55
parents, as people. We have got to remember that
11:59
people who are in government who put these bills through have an
12:02
agenda behind those bills. Like we know that not everything
12:07
that they are thinking is put out there and explained for us
12:11
to know about. Like some of some of the reasons
12:14
why they put these things through.
12:15
It might look a certain way to us.
12:17
So like, for example, when schooling first started, parents
12:21
would have been paying a small amount of money to local
12:23
churches for their kids to go to school.
12:25
And the government offered free education as a way to help and
12:29
to allow parents to work easier and to keep more money in their
12:32
own pockets. And that sounds really
12:34
altruistic, doesn't it? Sounds really amazing.
12:37
And we know that part of that process was a power grab.
12:40
It was trying to get parents to go to work.
12:43
It was trying to stop churches from having so much of an
12:46
influence over the home messaging, the values that
12:49
people were having at home. It was trying to stop farmers
12:52
from just wanting to live out in their fields, dictating the
12:55
rules. And it wanted them in the
12:56
industries. It wanted them in the factories
12:58
working for the new goals of these big industrial leaders who
13:01
were our government. And I think we just have to kind
13:04
of remember that with every message that goes out there,
13:08
there is potentially another message right behind it.
13:10
And that kind of vibe of we don't want to encourage people
13:13
to home educate. And actually, since so many
13:15
people are choosing home education, we're now cracking
13:17
down on it because we're worried about all of these children.
13:20
It's just like, what are you really worried about?
13:23
I think if we want to like actually ask the question, I
13:26
think we know what they're really worried about.
13:29
And that's a kind of a loss of control over messaging and and
13:34
obviously being able to kind of force the country to go in a set
13:36
direction because as a government, they've got a big
13:39
group of people who they're basically trying to keep an
13:41
economy running and jobs opening and people going into work.
13:45
And maybe they can forecast massive changes for a country if
13:49
lots and lots of people decide to to home educate.
13:52
I wonder what they're worried about.
13:53
I wonder what they can see forecasted for the future if
13:56
hundreds of thousands of people pull their kids out of schools.
13:59
It makes you wonder, doesn't? It it does.
14:01
And I think that I guess I feel so obviously there's a long term
14:05
here, right? That could be a thought that
14:07
they're having. But even if they're not, even if
14:09
it's just feeling like maybe they truly feel like this is the
14:15
key. This is the answer to protecting
14:18
and ensuring that there is no abuse happening to children.
14:22
It's got to be getting them in the schools because that's what
14:25
we think is the answer. If they truly feel that, then I
14:28
think their approach is wrong, right?
14:30
If when we're threatened, when anyone is threatened and they
14:33
hide, right, they, they want to run away, they want to find ways
14:36
around it. They want to avoid.
14:38
But if you approach people with respect and compassion and work
14:41
together to find the right solution, instead of this
14:43
argumentative, this is what it is.
14:46
Listen to Wendy, listen to what she's saying, listen to all the
14:48
other people and, and they're like you mentioned, there are
14:50
people all over, there are Lords, there are peers, there
14:54
are people everywhere that are, are saying, guys, this is not
14:57
actually solving what we think it's solving.
15:00
You're going to get a much better outcome all around.
15:02
And of of course, I'm not saying that this is going to happen.
15:04
I wish it would. I wish we could have this deeper
15:06
conversation. I wish we could sit these people
15:08
around the table and say, let's actually look at some statistics
15:11
here. Let's actually dive into this.
15:12
Let's look at how this has happened in the past.
15:15
Let's look closer at this case that came up that sort of
15:18
spurred all this into action. Was that child really home
15:21
educated? Really no.
15:24
And so I think for a government that's so focused on getting
15:28
home educated children to register with the local
15:31
authority, you can see how Wendy mentioned Wales.
15:35
Wales was doing that successfully.
15:37
I don't think it was their intent.
15:38
But you know, Wendy mentioned that during COVID, the
15:40
government gave the local authority, what was it £200 per
15:44
home Ed family and families were coming to Wendy asking how do I
15:48
register so I can get that money?
15:50
I mean, if we, if we come, if they come at it at a better
15:53
solution, especially if they're going to offer some money
15:55
because we all know home educators spend a ton of fortune
15:58
of fortune, especially in the UK.
16:03
That life is so expensive these days.
16:05
Yeah, you're gonna bring all those families right to you, you
16:08
know, and, and all this time that we've spent arguing about
16:13
this and, and working on this bill, whether for or against it
16:16
could have been avoided in a different approach, I don't
16:18
know. So that's interesting to me.
16:21
Yeah. And I know I'm like rehashing,
16:23
but I know that the the kind of the concepts that you catch more
16:26
flies with honey and also the ultimately cost of living crisis
16:31
has meant that most families are being put under tremendous
16:33
pressure right now. And that ultimately as tax
16:36
paying UK citizens, like we've paid our taxes, we've paid our
16:40
dues. If we send our kids to school,
16:42
they will get that funding given to that school to help take care
16:45
of their education. In my opinion, again, it's that
16:48
kind of othering, it's that punishment kind of vibe.
16:50
It's that what what is it that we've decided that families that
16:54
are UK citizens who are basically their child is owed
16:56
that money. That's part of their rights as
16:58
auk citizen is access to a good education.
17:02
And essentially, they want to kind of crack down on the
17:06
quality of education that home educators are offering, but
17:09
they're not willing to kind of put their money where their
17:11
mouth is. Give people a real choice,
17:13
actually allow them to make this decision.
17:15
Give them the money that would be otherwise intended for a
17:17
school to take care of them or even half of it, frankly, would
17:20
make a huge difference to most families and allow them to
17:23
provide a great quality of education at home if that is
17:26
what serves that family. And I mean, that's the thing.
17:29
I mean, it's, it's a whole other conversation, but it's for me, I
17:31
just think that there is an argument that says that if they
17:34
actually started recognizing that putting their money where
17:36
their mouth is supporting children to get these grades to
17:39
get great GCS, CS or outcomes to go on to higher education.
17:43
If they still want them to have great outcomes, then they have
17:46
to actually start recognizing that if more people are going to
17:49
choose home education, then actually we deserve equal rights
17:55
to the money that would otherwise be sent on our child's
17:57
education. And to allow them to have an
17:58
education. Not, not not for the parents to
18:00
just spend on whatever they fancy, but you can literally be
18:03
claiming it back with receipts or whatever for reasonable
18:06
things. But ultimately that would mean
18:08
that you then free up some of the income that you guys are
18:10
generating as a family for food and for shoes.
18:16
Why do they destroy shoes so fast?
18:17
Like, I don't even know what it is about kids just destroy shoes
18:19
every 5 minutes. But the point is that it's, it's
18:22
we just have to start recognising that the cost of
18:24
living is making things very hard for most people.
18:27
And I think where a lot of families are having to work, are
18:29
now working from home, are working more flexibly.
18:31
They are starting to recognise that actually home education is
18:34
an option if their child is not happy in school and ultimately
18:39
bring back around to this conversation actually, why are
18:41
people deregistering in the 1st place?
18:44
Let's stop cracking down on the people who've chosen to do it
18:46
and let's start asking them why they did and let's start
18:49
actually doing something about the reasons because they are
18:51
good reasons. They are really good reasons and
18:54
we really need to start listening because it's just not
18:57
OK. And I think the biggest campaign
18:59
around this is the Are you listening now hashtag, which is
19:03
a lot of people kind of sharing stories of why they do
19:06
registered and why they decided not to go to school anymore.
19:09
So that's another thing you can get behind as well.
19:11
If you have got a story to share, post about it or write a
19:14
letter and use the hashtag and tell them to go look up the
19:17
hashtag and to go and listen to some of the the stories and
19:20
posts that people have put out there about it.
19:21
Because that's another message that's been trying to put out.
19:24
Like are you listening? Like, you're clearly worried
19:27
about this, but are you actually listening?
19:28
Are you actually paying attention to why, or are you
19:30
just getting annoyed with us and wanting to find us too?
19:33
So it's, it's just a bit frustrating, I guess that yeah,
19:37
we're having the same conversations with the
19:39
government every couple of years trying to get them to hear us.
19:41
And like everything, progress is always slow.
19:44
But I have actually felt quite optimistic that we are getting
19:48
the opportunity, small little moments as it may be, to be seen
19:52
and to be heard. And the bigger the community
19:55
gets, the more of an impact it can have have when we have the
19:59
government kind of kind of wanting to gain more control
20:02
over it and we actually have the opportunity to shout louder.
20:05
So I think we just have to remember how vital we all are in
20:08
that kind of like, as, as Wendy was saying, like that every
20:11
molecule in the tree, like comes together to make the tree.
20:14
It wouldn't be a tree without you.
20:16
And so try to remember that no matter how new to it you are,
20:19
even if you're not even doing it yet, but you care about it and
20:21
you want to do it, or you're a teacher and you see great value
20:23
in it or whatever it is. Bracket support us, make sure
20:27
that people know that you don't agree with it either because
20:30
yeah, the more volume we can create around this, the more
20:33
will be heard. So I, as I say, I feel quite
20:35
optimistic about that. I like that we're being heard
20:38
even a little bit, like even just a little bit.
20:40
We are starting to get more sway.
20:43
So yeah, I think that could only have a positive effect for the
20:45
future. Yeah.
20:47
And I, I think that it's important to note that we're
20:50
probably always going to be the minority.
20:52
I don't ever see, I just right now, as you mentioned, change is
20:56
slow. Most families require 2 incomes.
21:00
People have a certain quality of life they want to maintain.
21:03
I, I don't ever see home education being the, the bulk
21:08
of, of what's happening in, in terms of education across the
21:11
globe. Even just looking at the UK,
21:13
right. I don't think that'll ever be
21:14
the case. There are plenty of people who
21:16
have 0 interest home educating. We all know that.
21:19
So I, I think that like you're saying, it's, it's great that
21:22
we're getting a voice now at this moment that is important.
21:26
And I think that it's also important for the community to
21:30
have home education there. I think it adds flavor to our
21:35
culture. I think it is important just for
21:38
diversity. And, you know, Wendy had
21:41
mentioned how we want to be careful about not shaving off
21:43
the edges of a square peg so it fits into a round hole.
21:46
And that really stuck. Like, it struck me because it's
21:49
exactly the reason so many people home school.
21:52
They want their child to be a child, to not feel early
21:55
bullying or stress, to really develop their sense of self and
21:59
their confidence and to be able to learn in a supportive
22:01
environment that encourages creativity and individual
22:05
thought. And yes, that that can happen in
22:07
a traditional school, but it often doesn't, at least not the
22:11
way that maybe we feel it at home.
22:13
And so many of the successful businesses in our our world,
22:16
entrepreneurs, they come from a non traditional education
22:19
background. And we don't, we don't want to
22:22
lose our future Einsteins of the world.
22:23
We we want that. So I'm not saying it has to be
22:26
for everyone. I would never say that.
22:28
I'm not even saying it'll be for us forever.
22:31
But it is important to allow it to exist and to not make it so
22:36
cumbersome, to not put up so many roadblocks that people feel
22:41
so put upon, so pressed down, that they just give up because
22:46
it just becomes too hard, too expensive, too time consuming to
22:50
maintain. Exactly.
22:51
And I think that kind of brings us around to the point that when
22:54
she was kind of talking about the changes that we might feel
22:56
as home educators if this comes into play.
22:59
And I know that the the element around kind of how much
23:01
information we might have to get to local authorities is in
23:04
dispute. And we have got Lords pushing
23:06
back against it. And they even had a concession
23:08
in the last debate I saw that they did say that it is under
23:11
discussion about kind of how much would be reasonable to even
23:15
be expected. Because ultimately you've got
23:17
the concept of being able to actually even contact the local
23:20
authority every two weeks with an update is just like, holy
23:23
moly. I can't even imagine having to
23:24
like have this in my diary or even being able to remember
23:28
everything that we've done. Like that means we'd have to go
23:30
back through my calendar and have to think about everything
23:32
we've done. I'd have to be making a note of
23:33
it every single day. I'd have to be keeping some sort
23:35
of report. There's no way.
23:37
And what will happen is it'll, it'll end up being a gist and it
23:41
won't even be accurate. And so like, what is even the
23:43
point? And then even if you did submit
23:45
it all, if like if every single one of us registered and started
23:47
sending these regular updates, they're not going to read them
23:50
all. They're not going to be
23:51
interested in half of what anybody sends.
23:53
They're not going to investigate it.
23:55
They're not, you know what I mean?
23:56
Like this, this information is going like, what is this data
23:58
for? Like what they even going to do
23:59
with it? And I think the truth is it's
24:01
only going to really be for families where they have
24:04
concerns already that they would want to know this information.
24:07
But then those families are not probably going to be providing
24:10
very much data. So it's like, is this just us
24:14
trying to prove that we are actually doing something?
24:16
Like, what is it that they actually care about?
24:18
Like, what is it that they are interested in when it comes to
24:20
this information? I guess it's it's overreach and
24:23
it's completely unnecessary. And it's, it's just like, it's
24:26
our lives, it's our private, private lives for doing things
24:29
in our own days, doing things that make sense for our kids.
24:32
These extracurriculars. If someone else books a kid into
24:34
a dance class, they don't have to tell someone about it and
24:37
have it investigated like. What's?
24:39
That about so very strange. This is all so strange.
24:44
Yeah. And so if you, if you haven't
24:46
listened to the previous conversation with Wendy, or if
24:49
you were like me and didn't understand even what she was
24:51
talking about because you haven't read the bill that
24:53
carefully, it sounds like the request is to provide details on
25:00
anything and anyone your child interacts with both academically
25:06
and on like an extracurricular level.
25:09
So if they are attending a 5:00 PM dance class that any child is
25:15
allowed to register for, whether they're in a traditional school
25:18
or not, right. Just your local gymnastics or
25:19
whatever swim team, some lessons that you then have to report
25:24
information about the instructor business, right?
25:27
And, and, and share all that their name, etcetera.
25:31
And that was shocking because again, like you were saying,
25:34
this first of all is not their main academic hub.
25:37
All these things are important. Yes, they build who the child
25:40
is. Of course, they contribute to
25:41
everything, but they're not specific to home Ed.
25:46
It's every child does these, their parents are putting them
25:48
in, you know, field hockey or soccer or swimming or whatever
25:52
it is. And that's just what kids do
25:56
after school. So it's shocking to me that
25:58
there's this request, but it's not an equal request to
26:01
traditional school children either.
26:03
Yeah, it's, it's sharing extracurricular details as well,
26:06
not just academic experiences. And I don't mind putting that
26:11
information together and submitting it as part of like an
26:14
end of the year packet like we do in the US.
26:17
Not that you include that kind of level of detail, but you
26:19
might say like, yes, my kid is doing the sports, they're doing
26:22
art class or whatever, that that's fine.
26:24
But this, this feels very different from that.
26:28
And so I I was really surprised and then hear like a biweekly
26:32
request, wow, that yeah, I don't even know how to manage that.
26:36
No, no, I think about admin, right?
26:39
I know it is. And I think let's not you've
26:41
been a teacher. How much fun was the paperwork?
26:43
Like how much fun was that? I mean, what is the main reason
26:46
why we're losing teachers? The bureaucracy, the the endless
26:49
paperwork, the forms and the observations and the constant
26:53
trying to monitor and grade and like keep on track of targets
26:56
and expectations. And I think there's a very real
26:59
fear in the homeland community that essentially what this is
27:01
gearing towards is more kind of insistence on any kind of
27:06
testing or kind of mandatory assessments of our children in
27:10
some way. And I think the reality is like
27:13
to kind of skirt around this a little bit, but to kind of just
27:15
to, I don't know, the concept of Domino's, like we've talked
27:19
about this before, the concept of something happening that
27:22
seems innocuous. We're going to put a register in
27:25
place and we're going to get you all to register on it to say
27:27
that you're home educators in a small way, if they wanted to say
27:31
every, every single child that is on this physical land has to
27:36
be registered somewhere, even, I mean, just identify who they are
27:42
and where they are. So that obviously there is a way
27:44
of keeping track of them and know that they're OK.
27:47
Like we know that human trafficking is a thing.
27:50
We, we know that these things happen.
27:51
And actually from a safeguarding and safety perspective, if they
27:55
really want to know where every single child is, like where
27:59
their address is, who is responsible for them.
28:02
And make sure that you have seen some recent check insurance,
28:05
like they have been to AGP recently, they've been to a
28:07
hospital because they've had an illness.
28:09
They've, you know what I mean? Like they've had regular
28:11
vaccinations, whatever it might be.
28:13
Like there should be some, to some degree, some central
28:17
information that allows the government to be reassured that
28:19
that child is being careful, that there are no red flags
28:21
against that child. And obviously if they disappear
28:24
abroad for six months unexpectedly, that there is some
28:30
sort of red flag that comes up on the system that says we just
28:32
need to check in and make sure that this child is safe, that
28:34
they haven't been taken somewhere they shouldn't have or
28:36
whatever. That I actually think to some
28:38
degree we have got to have some stuff in place and there's some
28:40
awful things that happen on this planet.
28:42
But the issue you've got here is that a register that is solely
28:46
for children out of school, that becomes a legal thing that if
28:51
you don't do it, you risk punishment, essentially starts
28:55
to make you kind of almost criminalized that you as an
28:58
individual group of people now have to provide certain data to
29:02
the government about your children and their movements and
29:04
what they're doing because they're not in a school.
29:06
But let's actually talk safeguarding for a minute.
29:09
I think there's there's absolutely no argument in the
29:12
teaching community, in the parenting communities that
29:15
safeguarding in schools is not up to scratch.
29:19
You've got secondary school pupils in schools with count
29:23
seeing countless different teachers, all of whom are so
29:27
busy and have not got the time to be properly safeguarding
29:31
individual pupils. They might notice async that
29:33
happens and maybe report it or do something about it, but
29:36
ultimately they have not got eyes on that child all the time.
29:39
They have not got time to have a relationship with that child.
29:41
They don't know everything that's going on in that child's
29:43
world. Whatever, right?
29:46
Bullying, the, the abuse that happens still there is teacher
29:51
to student abuse. There is all kinds of stuff that
29:53
still happens. And ultimately we are being told
29:57
forcibly in the media and through what the government is
30:01
trying to say with this bill that ultimately schools are
30:04
safer, that children should be under the like observation of a
30:09
teacher, qualified teachers are better, that they should be in a
30:12
school and that that is essentially what's best for
30:14
them. And I think that arguably a lot
30:17
of people are deregistering their kids these days because
30:18
school was not what was best for their child.
30:21
That format of education, that type of education was not
30:24
appropriate. And possibly they have even
30:26
experienced abuse or they have experienced significant bullying
30:30
or been at risk or whatever. They've they've pulled them out
30:33
for a reason or chosen not to send them in the first place for
30:36
a reason. And yeah, I think we just have
30:39
to really kind of address this kind of concept that government
30:41
really want to say right now and be really strong about the fact
30:44
that their schools are safer, that we should have kids in
30:46
schools, that this this visibility is important.
30:48
Anybody outside of that is at risk.
30:51
And I think that a lot of parents are feeling quite
30:53
emotive about that because actually we as parents are
30:55
ultimately responsible for safeguarding our children.
30:58
When we're putting them into groups and clubs or like a day
31:01
session or leaving them with a friend or having their uncle
31:05
take care of them for a day or whatever, we are making a
31:08
conscious choice to keep that child safe.
31:10
We are aware of their behaviours, we're aware of their
31:13
parenting style, we're aware of making sure we advocate for our
31:16
children, we stand up for them, we we research, we make sure
31:20
they've got DBS checks and insurance they've booked
31:22
somewhere sensible to hold it. We are responsible for this.
31:25
Like this is what parenting is, safeguarding our children.
31:29
And it's not up to the government to do that.
31:31
They can certainly help if they would like to put some things in
31:34
place that actually do that, fine.
31:37
But ultimately saying to me that my child is better off if they
31:41
went to a school because then they would have other adults
31:44
keeping an eye on them. For me, it's just it actually
31:47
makes no sense. It doesn't make any sense at all
31:50
because surely a couple of children in a family household
31:54
that granted I am talking from a space of being a family that
31:58
gives gives a rats about my kids.
32:00
So I understand we're not all the same.
32:03
And I know that they are obviously concerned about the
32:05
situations where it is not the case that the child is safe.
32:08
I get that. But putting that pressure on all
32:11
of the families and making us all feel like criminals wanting
32:16
to choose something which is actually a demonstration of love
32:19
for our children is actually, it is offensive.
32:22
It just is. And it's such a shame that we're
32:25
not. Again, it's a listening thing.
32:26
It's a recognition thing. It's just actually having some
32:28
respect like it's, it's, it's disrespectful.
32:32
Well, and this kind of is, you know, leads or is the main take
32:36
away that I had from the conversation with Wendy, which
32:38
is just around the thought that children are safer in school and
32:41
the name of the bill being children's well-being and
32:45
schools bill. That alone just feels like
32:47
propaganda because of course you want to support that.
32:50
Of course, who wouldn't want to support child's well-being?
32:52
Like obviously, but when you look deeper, why are well-being
32:56
and school looped together here, right?
32:59
And, and why is home school where children aren't well and
33:05
school where children are well like that?
33:07
I I would love to see the research on that, the numbers
33:10
that they pulled to say, gosh, this is a, this is a huge
33:13
glaring difference and we need to get everyone in school
33:15
because that makes the difference.
33:17
Obviously there are pockets everywhere where there's going
33:19
to be exceptions both in school and out of school, but it
33:22
doesn't make sense to have a bill that ties them together.
33:25
And for all the reasons when you put it out, I won't relist them.
33:27
You go back and listen to the podcast if you didn't, if you
33:29
didn't, it's incredible. But, and you can see that it's
33:32
just not going to guarantee anything.
33:34
So that's why I just feel like they're coming at it from the
33:36
wrong approach in in general. It's just not going to do what
33:42
they want it to do. No, and I think this is what's
33:45
really interesting to me and why I kind of sit in the podcast
33:47
with ND as well as like, I wish they would just listen to us.
33:49
Like he just sat and had a conversation with a few of us.
33:53
They would actually go, oh, I see, yes, gosh, that makes
33:55
entire sense. And I think what we have to
33:57
therefore recognize is that we have all been shouting it like
34:01
we've been sending our letters, we've been marching, we've been
34:04
talking about it on podcasts and doing blogs and writing
34:06
articles. This is not hidden information.
34:08
Like our opinions around this are really unanimous actually.
34:11
But the home education community as a whole has all come to a
34:15
very similar conclusion. And that is a decent amount of
34:18
people. And ultimately, if we can
34:20
actually take a second to listen to what they're saying and be
34:24
open minded enough to really take that on board and to think
34:27
differently about it all, then maybe they might start to make
34:30
some different changes. And I mean, I'm talking like
34:32
actual, real changes, like actually trying to fix some of
34:35
the stuff that's happening in school grounds and provide us
34:38
with a bit more support. And I know that maybe there is
34:43
some like in some of what they're trying to do, that there
34:45
is some altruism or that is actually something they're
34:47
really trying to achieve. And ultimately, I would love for
34:50
them to actually be able to achieve that goal, to know that
34:53
they have actually managed to protect some more kids to stop
34:56
some bad stuff from happening. I mean, I was talking to a
34:59
police officer that I knew and I was kind of stressing like, OK,
35:03
so imagine like as part of being in the police, they said like
35:08
everybody had to put themselves on a register to say that they
35:13
do a certain thing or whatever, but they're not a criminal, for
35:15
example. Like it's going to put myself in
35:17
a register to say I am not a criminal.
35:20
This is this is me. And I said, so how much
35:22
information do you want to have on that to reassure yourself
35:24
that they're not a criminal? And he's just like, well, I
35:27
don't know, really like nothing Like that's not really going to
35:29
reassure me anything. I was like, OK, so what's next?
35:31
And he's like, well, I suppose they want to have like an annual
35:34
report, right? And I was like, well, yeah, so
35:36
OK, so we do an annual report, but you could kind of just say
35:40
whatever you want. So like, realistically, like,
35:42
yes, OK, they could investigate it further.
35:43
So you can't lie on it. And I'm not encouraging anybody
35:45
to do that. But ultimately, you can just
35:47
write a report and it's as accurate as it's written.
35:50
So you hand it in and they say, OK, does this actually reassure
35:55
them that you were doing a good job?
35:57
Maybe, maybe not. And so then what they going to
35:59
do next? And he goes, well, I suppose you
36:00
want to go and actually like get eyes on them, observe them,
36:03
notice them, like investigate them.
36:04
And I was like, okay, but why are you suspicious of them in
36:07
the first place? And he's like, well, I don't
36:09
know, it was like, I just AM. And he was like, so you just
36:12
want to know. And I was like, so then it just
36:14
goes further and further and further, right.
36:15
So like, where does this end? It's like, where do we actually
36:18
draw a line? And when we talked to various
36:21
MPs about it, we had a, a call with 1.
36:24
He was kind of helpless to try and get some messaging directly
36:27
to Bridget. I was, I really managed, I
36:30
really tried to emphasise to them that we have got to
36:33
remember that these things are a slippery slope, they are a
36:37
domino effect. The more we allow to happen, the
36:40
more control we allow to other people to have over our choices
36:43
and our lives and our decisions, the more hoops we have to jump
36:46
through, the more admin we have to do.
36:49
Like actually, it's a slippery slope because it never fully
36:53
reassures anybody. And I was like, at what point
36:55
does this stop? Like do we all have to have
36:57
cameras in our homes? Like do you need to have
36:58
listening devices everywhere? Do we have to have somebody
37:01
supervising it all the time? Do we, do you know what I mean?
37:03
Like what will we have to do Like, And it's like it will
37:06
ultimately reach a point, I think where they will try and
37:08
obviously push everybody into school environments again.
37:11
And that's obviously I'm not talking about next year.
37:13
And I'm not scaring people with this.
37:14
Like I ultimately that's you just watch it extrapolate out on
37:17
how that could event eventually end up ending.
37:21
Is ultimately that if the government wants to have full
37:24
eyes on and control that it would be a mandatory attendance
37:26
for all children into some sort of school environment.
37:30
And that obviously is a hopefully never going to happen.
37:32
But that's we have got to fight these things because one tiny
37:37
inch of control changed sets the tone for the next inch that they
37:43
want to take. And so I think that's why I
37:45
think if you're not, if you've not done anything yet or you're
37:48
feeling anxious about doing something, whatever, I get it.
37:50
And I really don't want anybody to feel scared that stuff is
37:53
going to change. But ultimately we want to have
37:55
this choice and getting to choose to home educate was was
37:59
huge for us and our family. And I want my kids to be able to
38:03
choose it too. And I want their kids to be able
38:05
to choose it too. And I certainly do not want the
38:07
human race to reach a point where parents are not allowed to
38:10
raise their own children. And it says we, we have got to
38:15
fight this and it's important to do it.
38:18
And it matters and we don't always realize how much these
38:21
things matter. But if we if we look at like how
38:24
people felt back when the government said, hey, we'll
38:27
start paying for school, you don't have to pay for it
38:29
anymore. You can just go to work and
38:31
we'll cover the cost. How back at then people were
38:33
just probably like, yes, finally, I don't have to pay for
38:36
education. Great, thank you so much.
38:39
And they were probably would be for the most part, quite happy
38:41
to hand over that control and to have a bit more money in their
38:44
coffers. They had no idea what it would
38:47
make the world look like 100 years later.
38:49
I had no idea. And it's going to have had some
38:52
good things and it's going to have had some bad.
38:54
And every single thing, it's like the butterfly effect.
38:57
Every single thing has consequences and has knock on
38:59
effects down the line. And we don't always know what
39:01
they are and we don't always know what they the right thing
39:04
to have done is. But I feel like we have to just
39:06
go with our gut on these things sometimes and recognize that
39:10
when such a large group of people all feel the same way,
39:12
that ultimately there's there's a reason for that.
39:15
And the reasons why people choose to home educate now are
39:18
exactly the same as they were back when schools first started.
39:23
So the drive for autonomy, the, the wanting to have your own
39:27
family values stay intact, the, the wish to live a life actually
39:31
makes sense to you as individuals.
39:33
That the concept of home education has always been there.
39:36
People have always home educated and ultimately the reasons why
39:41
people wanted to do it were the same then as they are now.
39:45
And this is in a book that I was reading as I was not to be
39:47
saying that it's something which I have read and it was really
39:49
fascinating. I think it's really nice to know
39:52
that because it actually helps you to realize that actually
39:54
that that underlying feeling has always been there.
39:57
And so it's good that we feel it still, and that's actually still
39:59
important to us as human beings. And I think that means that the
40:02
government really do need to stand up and listen to it
40:04
because it's still real and it still matters you.
40:06
Also mentioned in in this, I know it's not really related to
40:09
this bill, obviously, but you mentioned in your conversation
40:12
with Wendy about how there are thoughts to extend potentially
40:15
the childcare allowances that parents can get back to work
40:18
quicker after having a baby. And of course, the time allowed
40:21
to stay home after birth here in the UK is much more than in the
40:24
US. I'm already jealous of the UK
40:26
and basically the rest of the world for recognizing that 10 to
40:30
12 weeks is not enough time. This May, yeah.
40:33
But but moving on to not, you know, a significant portion of
40:37
the time that parents spend with their children occurs during the
40:40
early years. And we all I mean, that makes
40:42
sense, right? But Western world families feel
40:45
this, you know, more and I see that compared to Italy and the
40:48
time that I lived there and just also through my Italian family
40:51
who do spend way more time together post adolescence.
40:54
But for the rest of us, by the time a kid turns 12, you will
40:58
have spent 75% of the total time you're going to spend with that
41:02
child. And that number goes up to 90%
41:05
when they reach 18. And while I know everyone has
41:07
different thoughts on this, I personally, I want to build a
41:10
strong foundation with my children.
41:12
I want to raise them, not see that happen by someone else
41:15
because they're in school and sports and activity is nearly
41:18
all hours of the day. We all know time goes so fast.
41:22
I'm on vacation right now and I can't believe I only have like a
41:24
week and a half left. How, how has that happened?
41:27
So it's just, I'm, I'm seeing the time fly by my 11 year old.
41:32
I thought the other day, gosh, we have what, 6 summers until
41:36
she's 18 and ready to do her own thing and travel by herself with
41:39
her own friends and do that, right?
41:41
That's scary. So I'm thinking, OK, we want to
41:44
do Disney one more time. Like, it's not.
41:46
We don't have forever. You know, if we want to do a
41:49
family vacation where she doesn't have, you know, a
41:52
partner she wants to go off with or friend she wants to go off
41:55
with, like we need to do that now.
41:57
So yeah, it is, it is a fast and short pocket of time that we
42:02
have with these, with these amazing humans.
42:04
And I want the ability, if I so choose, to spend that time with
42:08
them. We all know home educating can
42:10
be a full time job. It is a lot of work.
42:13
It comes from a place of passion and love.
42:15
And I, I want to preserve that for myself or anyone else who
42:19
chooses to have it. So I think that's just sort of
42:22
the main, the main crutch of all of this, right?
42:25
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think hopefully those of
42:29
you having listened to Wendy's episode and then on to this one
42:31
as well, and hopefully you'll come and message us with some of
42:34
your thoughts and stuff that you've been thinking about as
42:36
well. But ultimately, we are just
42:40
people and we just love our kids.
42:42
And I think we are all doing such an incredible job in what
42:46
is essentially quite a stressful time.
42:48
And for those of you kind of feeling super overwhelmed by
42:51
this and worrying about it, I guess all I want to say is that,
42:54
well, as Wendy was trying to emphasize, not many amendments
42:57
have been made-up until now. And lots and lots of amendments
43:01
are being asked for. And ultimately, they are not
43:03
going to want the Lords to end up striking this completely and
43:07
having them resubmit it in 13 months.
43:09
So they are not going to want to.
43:12
So it'd be like how we negotiate everything, right?
43:15
Kids saying can I have 5 bourbons and you say 1 and they
43:19
can say 2. I'm like, all right, five, you
43:22
can have your two. Let's hope that as they start to
43:25
put these things through that they might manage to get things
43:29
to concede on say the register and that might come into effect
43:33
and we might have to do that eventually.
43:36
But also just because that has changed, it does not mean that
43:40
that domino effect will continue in the vein that it is.
43:44
Actually, what it might mean is that they will recognize through
43:47
having to implement something like that and actually trying to
43:51
tackle the thousands, it makes me laugh because they're just
43:55
going to be like a tsunami of people that just had a like, Oh
44:00
my goodness, there's so many more than we realise.
44:03
They're never going to be able to keep up with it, that
44:05
ultimately it's going to cost them a fortune to try and keep
44:07
on top of it all. And that with the constant
44:10
campaigning that we do and the legal cases that do make it into
44:13
court, when, for example, local authorities overstep their
44:15
bounds and try and force kids into school or whatever.
44:18
All those legal cases where the arguments that come forth help
44:22
to set a precedent against some of the overstep and over
44:26
reaching of the local authorities.
44:28
Every single time something happens like that where we get a
44:30
positive outcome, which we do, we get those positive outcomes.
44:35
How like local authorities 30 years ago had the right to come
44:38
into your home. They, they could come and just
44:39
knock on the door and not insist on coming inside and they can't
44:42
do that anymore. Like, so that is a win.
44:44
We have actually gone in the right direction in terms of
44:46
legislation around this. And so ultimately there is still
44:49
a lot of fighting that can still happen and will happen and they
44:53
will find it very difficult to put some of the things into play
44:55
that we're worried about them doing.
44:57
And ultimately, there's absolutely no way that any any
45:01
local authority wants A2 weekly update.
45:05
No. Anybody.
45:06
They are just probably sitting there like sweating.
45:09
Can you imagine the people in those roles right now sweating,
45:12
thinking about the potential for these things to actually come
45:14
into play? Poor people.
45:16
I really honestly, actually feel quite sorry for them.
45:19
So try not to stress, try and just let's sign that petition.
45:23
Let's get behind that one thing. Let's get that done and
45:25
everything else you do on top of that be a bonus.
45:28
And let's just actually do that last little push.
45:31
Let's see if we can try and get some more of these amendments
45:33
actually put into play. And then let's carry on caring
45:36
about it after it's happened and making sure that we continue to
45:40
fight for our rights as human beings for the right to parent
45:43
Orient children. And thank you to every single
45:45
one of you who is out there doing something, whatever it is.
45:49
However, right now, whether you're just listening to this
45:52
and learning about it is great. So well done.
45:55
We only need a pat on the back. It is tough trying to deal with
45:59
this. It's stressful.
45:59
So good. Well, well done to us all.
46:03
But as always, thank you for listening and I hope this has
46:06
been helpful and we'll see you again next week.
46:10
You've been listening to the Big Home Ed Conversations podcast.
46:14
Thanks for tuning in. Don't forget to subscribe, leave
46:17
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46:19
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46:23
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46:25
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46:28
Why, and reflect on a year of doing this podcast and the
46:31
intentions we set out and where we are now after a year of
46:35
recording.