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5: Tariff Wars · Rittener Reflections

• Tariff Wars === [00:00:00] Jeff Rittener: Hello, this is Jeff Rittner and welcome back to Rittner Reflections, a forum to address the dynamic, complex, and essential nature of cross border trade in our world today. For this episode, we will focus our discussion on one of the hottest, most controversial, and potentially disruptive topics of our day. Tariffs. Given the fluidity of the situation under the Trump administration, details and use of tariffs around the world may have changed multiple times before we get a chance to listen. However, let us go ahead and jump in with where we are at currently. I am really excited to have with me today, Brian White. Who is the Senior Director of Global Trade Compliance and Facilitation at Intel Corporation. Brian is responsible for leading a team of global customs and trade facilitation professionals to ensure barrier free [00:01:00] trade while identifying strategic global customs opportunities. Assessing risk and advocating in government and industry forums. Brian is a licensed U. S. customers broker with over 25 years of experience in global compliance and supply chain management. Hi, Brian. Thank you for joining me for what should be a fascinating discussion. [00:01:24] Brian White: Yeah, Jeff, thank you so much for having me here. podcast and reconnect. Looking forward to the discussion. [00:01:30] Jeff Rittener: Great. Well, before we begin, I would like to let the listeners know how much I appreciate you and all the amazing work you accomplished when we worked together at Intel. You and I first met on LinkedIn when you reached out to me about a role I was seeking to fill. We spoke for a bit, and when we hung up, I knew at that moment that you were the leader I was looking for to help advance. Our trade objectives at Intel. Fortunately, you said yes [00:02:00] and joined my exceptional leadership team. I think both of us would agree that the journey was a difficult one, but the opportunities to apply our craft. We're never better. Again, welcome to Rittner Reflections. [00:02:27] Brian White: Yeah, absolutely, Jeff. I so appreciate that opportunity. And it's been a wild ride at Intel, you know, and it continues to be that wild ride, uh, no shortage of challenges for us as trade compliance professionals and helping the company navigate, uh, this environment that we're dealing with. [00:02:43] Jeff Rittener: Well, to start, Brian, um, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I understand you are a California boy. That moved east. [00:02:52] Brian White: Yeah, originally from Northern California, San Francisco Bay Area, uh, grew up in Antioch. I call it the Far East Bay of the [00:03:00] San Francisco Bay Area. I met my wife who's also native of Oakland. We lived in San Francisco for a period of time. And now we find ourselves in beautiful Northeast Ohio. We've been become somewhat of a, I call it a country bump in these days, but really enjoying the lifestyle out here. We moved at a. a point where our daughters were just going into middle school and would not change the trajectory of where we've ended up. It's been great. [00:03:26] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, I've really appreciate it over time. We've talked a lot about your life in, in Ohio. I call it, you know, life on the farm. I think you've told me you've got chickens, you've got, uh, beautiful gardens. Um, and one of the stories I always enjoy, you would tell me about your, uh, your 4th of July celebrations. Yeah. What do you do there? [00:03:47] Brian White: So in California, you know that fireworks are illegal, right? It's a big no no. I've always gotten in trouble in California for doing that. So having moved to Ohio, they are legal in Ohio, so we could buy 500 gram repeaters. And we like [00:04:00] to celebrate the Independence Day of the United States. So, uh, we've got a bit of land here. We go out and purchase fireworks. We have a great party, do traditional games, whether it's sack races, egg tosses, hula hoop contests, pie eating contests. And, uh, get the whole neighborhood and our fans and family and friends together to celebrate. It's a great time. [00:04:19] Jeff Rittener: Yeah. It always sounds so much fun. And I really appreciate you. Uh, you've invited me that anytime I'm, I'm around, uh, your, your area in the, at the 4th of July to stop on by. I may just do that one of these days. [00:04:32] Brian White: Absolutely. We'd love to host you for sure. [00:04:34] Jeff Rittener: Well, let's, um, let's talk about trade. You know, Okay. You've had many years experience in trade. Tell us, how did you get started and why? And maybe any career highlights or memorable moments you want to share with the listeners? [00:04:46] Brian White: Yeah, sure. I mean, for me, I never intended to join trade or start in this profession. I think most folks that you meet in the industry. Share similar stories, right? Some of those that have been around for a while. And I started my career in the [00:05:00] service provider industry, and I was working as a manager of general accounts as an entry writer for Fritz companies in San Francisco as a company that was later bought by UPS. And at the time I did that for a couple of years, I was promoted into a position to represent our business as an on site manager at The Gap. And this is where I got firsthand experience on what it takes to be an importer and manage trade on behalf of an importer in the apparel industry. And I'll tell you, I got a deep appreciation for the nuances of textile classification, you know, looking at threads per centimeter. Uh, is it left over, right closure? You name it, right? The complexities are there for it. Um, I've met wonderful mentors throughout my career, including yourself. One of which early in my career was at William Sonoma that asked me to help join their group to stand up the trade compliance function and managing the trade compliance around consumer home goods. Later had an opportunity to join Del Monte and move into the food, [00:06:00] beverage and agriculture space still in San Francisco at the time. Uh, managing trade compliance and broader corporate compliance programs. And through that journey with Del Monte, that's what's actually brought my family and I to Ohio. So we sold out certain assets that were later purchased by the Smucker Corporation that brought me here and it's, it's been a great journey. I've had the privilege of working with a number of talented professionals across the globe. It's helped to enrich my understanding of. Okay. Thank you. The international trade dynamics, but also culturally the different dynamics of how we have to manage business in each of these regions. Um, you talk about the highlight of my career. I think for me, it was really over the last 6, 7 years when I had the privilege and the honor of being appointed as a member of the U. S. customs and border protections, commercial operations advisory committee. You hear referred to as industry as Coak. So, my 1st, 2 years serving, I was there as an individual advisor. [00:07:00] But then, for the last 4 years of that term, I served as the trade co chair. And for those that aren't are not familiar with the color, it's a 20 member committee that provides strategic recommendations directly to CBP to Homeland Security and Treasury executives. And. The members are under clearance, and they receive confidential insights on various strategic issues. And we have the ability to weigh in and provide recommendations from an industry perspective. So, during our term, I mean, it was dynamic and no other time in throughout that term. We focused on topics. Such as forced labor, we went through the details and the challenges related to intellectual property rights, e commerce policy and de minimis. We talked a lot about how do we enhance and improve trade partnership programs like C. T. Pat and then really looking looked at and provide guidance around the enforcement and facilitation mechanisms and and regulatory reform. It was a. Great group of people. I've met lifetime friends through that, [00:08:00] and it's been a great journey. [00:08:02] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, sounds like it, Brian. And I, listening to you and, and all of the, the impact that you've had, especially even through the COAC, it's just, it's a great thing that you're at Intel right now. Intel needs someone like you, so well done. Um, you know, I'm so glad you're here with me today to talk about what I'm calling Tariff Wars. Um, it is a daily topic on all news cycles and across social media. And raises more questions, creates more confusion, and makes us all more anxious every day for the economy and the future. So, as we unpack this, this critical topic, let's just start with the basics, you know, what, what is a tariff and, you know, why do countries use them? [00:08:46] Brian White: Yeah, tariffs. Good God. And you take a step back, though, if you want to talk basics first, we got to start with the HTS classification, right? And for those listeners that may not be as familiar as trade or refer to [00:09:00] themselves as trade geeks, it's anything that crosses a border internationally must have what's called a harmonized tariff classification number. It's based on the harmonized system. It's a globally recognized classification program that's actually administered by the World Customs Organization. And the simplest way to think about it is Every object that physically exists on this earth has a 10 digit code that's assigned to it. And in some cases, you might have 1 to 3 to 5 different tariff codes that can be assigned to it. But that's part of the craft of our industry to help to navigate those, those interpretations. Um, so that HTS, once you assign that, it really defines. What's the applicable duty rate that you're going to have to pay to import that product into a particular country? What are the specific rules of origin that apply to that product as well? As what are the some of the free trade agreements that would apply to allow you to get a reduced rate of duty? So, I think getting folks grounded on 1st, let's get to the classification, which helps to determine [00:10:00] classification and duty rate and your ultimate tariff. But to your question on what is a tariff tariffs are ultimately it's an indirect tax that's imposed by a government. For their imported goods and governments have many different reasons for implementing tariffs, right? It could be Seeking to protect domestic industries. They could be looking to generate additional revenue. Perhaps they're evaluating the trade deficits, and they want to use these as leverage to try to balance those deficits. Um, but then more recently, too, I think there's a lot of folks using these for political or strategic regions or reasons looking to start with tariffs as a means to get to another objective. That may be unrelated. Right. [00:10:41] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, we definitely see that today, Brian. And I, I'm just wondering, um, historically, how has the U. S. pretty much approached tariffs? All of the above or? [00:10:51] Brian White: Yeah, all of the above. I mean, when you look at the history of tariffs, they've been a key economic and trade policy tool since we were [00:11:00] founded as a, as a country, right? If you look at the early U. S. tariffs, this is late 1700s into the 1800s. The whole purpose of tariffs was for revenue generation and domestic industry protection. So you have the tariff act. It's a 17 of 1789. this is 1 of the 1st, major laws that was passed by Congress with the primary purpose to fund the federal government through the use of tariffs. Then if you shift, right, we go into this protectionist era, which started in the late 1800s, early 1900s, which was all around. Protecting or protecting industrial growth and protectionism here in the U. S. So if you're in trade, you've probably seen the means lately on Ben Stein. Remember Ben Stein and the movie Ferris Bueller's day off, right? Anyone, anyone? I mean, this guy during that class, the students were asleep. They were dead asleep in the class, but ultimately he was probing them on what's referred to in what, what was the smooth Holly Tara fact of 1930. [00:12:00] And this, this Tara fact, your man. Ally increased tariffs at the time, which Ulti ultimately led to global trade retaliation, and only furthered the Great Depression during that period of time. So that, that was the first early uses of, of tariffs. If you shift then to a po, a post World War II era. And you see this great liberalization of trade, right? And looking for global economic and cooperation around free trade. So after world war two, the U S established the general agreements on tariffs and trade, the gap of 1947 and the whole. premise was to help to promote lower tariffs and global trade. Um, we saw the Trade Expansion Act. That was 1962, which gave the president the power to negotiate tariff reductions, and then throughout the 70s, you had the Tokyo round, you had the Uruguay round in the 80s and 90s, where the gap helped to further reduce tariffs that ultimately led to the creation of the World Customs Organization, [00:13:00] or I'm sorry, the World Trade Organization in 1995. So, then you shift into the 90s in the 2000, you see the proliferation of these free trade agreements, right? So, strengthening global trade and partnerships, the introduction of the North American free trade agreement in 1994, you had bilateral and regional trade agreements with the U. S. In engaging countries like South Korea, Australia and Singapore to help lower the tariffs. We have the expansion of the generalized system of preferences or G. S. P. which helps to promote economic growth and development in the developing world and it was just again this proliferation of free trade. Globally. And then you shift post two thousands, right? You get into 2010 and all the way to the pre, to the present, and you see the return of tariffs being used as a trade weapon, right? Whether it's used to address, uh, trade imbalances, uh, protect industries or counter unfair [00:14:00] trade practices, we saw early on anti-dumping and countervailing duty cases. Exploded with the whole intent of protecting domestic industry and then addressing unfair practices. With the first Trump administration, 2017 through 2021, we saw the first use of Section 232 tariffs on steel and aluminum, citing national security concerns. We had the U. S. China trade war with tariffs on billions of imports, leveraging Section 301 based on concerns related to intellectual property theft. And then you see the shift also from taking NAFTA. And renegotiating those terms under new provisions that ultimately became the U. S. Mexico Canada agreement. So again, I think we've seen the weaponization of trade again, come back, even as it was originally started from our founding and the last administration, even with Biden continued those. Trump area tariffs that we've seen for protectionism, [00:14:58] Jeff Rittener: right? Right. And, and during [00:15:00] president Trump's campaign, he boldly declared that he plans to slap aggressive tariffs on all sorts of us imports as soon as day one. And over the past month, we've seen he's really fulfilled, at least in some cases, he's fulfilled his promise. It, a lot of it times it's threats. Um, but he did once describe tariff as the most beautiful word, um, from, from your perspective. Why does Trump like tariffs so much? I [00:15:25] Brian White: think he understands the history. You know, and to your point, we've seen Trump consistently advocate for the use of tariffs as a central component of his economic and his trade policies more broadly, right? I think he sees tariffs as a strategic tool to accomplish Very subjective, right? It's I think 1 of the aspects you hear them talking about is protecting and rebuilding domestic industries, whereby if we're able to import, or if we're imposing tariffs on imported goods, ultimately, it should make foreign products more expensive and encourage [00:16:00] more consumers to buy US based products. That means we have to rebuild that U. S. industry. So it's not it's it's very difficult to actually achieve. I think the 2nd area we hear is on reducing trade deficits. I think he really believes that the tariffs can help to decrease the trade deficit by discouraging imports and looking at, like, section 301 on China. with the goal of reducing that imbalance that we have. Uh, the third is national securities concerns. Uh, they're used and they're based on the justifications for national security. And they're arguing that certain imports, whether it's aluminum still, we've heard more on semiconductors more recently as well, that they're critical to national defense. And that reliance on foreign sources. Poses a security risk and then 4th. And I think we talked about it earlier too is leveraging the tariffs for trade negotiations. So really looking at them as bargaining trips through his negotiations so that he can secure more favorable terms for the U. S. [00:17:00] whether it's directly related to trade or for other means as well. And I think we saw this in play. Uh, with the recent actions for Mexico and Canada over the last month. [00:17:08] Jeff Rittener: Yeah. I mean, just to summarize, you know, it started, I think maybe it was even day one or day two, you know, he, he slapped tariffs on Columbia and, and got the, the Colombian president to react immediately. Um, as you said, he's pressured both Canada and Mexico. To address their border issues. And it looks like by the time this we published this, he may have actually implemented tariffs on Canada, Mexico. Um, he's penalized China with an, an additional 10%. And now he's talking about another 10 percent to put a universal tariff on China. Um, he's penalizing. Countries by placing the 25 percent tariff on aluminum and steel, as you said, and then it sounds like starting in April. Now he's going to apply reciprocal tariffs on those countries who levy higher duties or taxes on the U. S. So as I said earlier, it's changing every day and he's [00:18:00] clearly in some cases You know threatening to use tariffs to maybe gain a political advantage or in some cases is actually it's punitive and he's actually slapping tariffs So it's a amazing time and it's it's something to as trade professionals We have to keep our eyes on every single day so we don't miss something, right? Um, absolutely So over and over brian, um economists are warning that these higher tariffs will create inflation Um, do you see it that way or will will revenue? Uh, you know kind of outweigh the risk? [00:18:33] Brian White: It's a million dollar question, Jeff. I do. You know, ultimately, tariffs, they're gonna lead to higher prices on imported goods and materials and which ultimately, in my view, will contribute to inflation. And I think historically we've seen that be the case on the U. S. So while the revenue from the tariffs do benefit the government, The increased costs are going to be passed on to the consumers. They're going to be passed on through the businesses that will potentially outweigh [00:19:00] that revenue benefits. I mean, when you look back and you look at the duties paid on U. S. imports, they doubled from fiscal 2015 to fiscal 2020, and they went from approximately 37 billion. To over $74 billion. So as the Biden administration maintained many of Trump's tariffs policy, US customs and Border protection last year in fiscal 24, collected over $77 billion. So despite the fact that we saw the tariff revenue double, I don't think we saw any me meaningful impact of the trade deficit. We saw no reduction in the national debt. We, we actually went through a period of time where inflation rates were. 4.7 in 2021. 8% In 2022. Yeah. They came down in 2023 to 4%. But these are unprecedented times of inflation. Yes. Covid may have had an impact on that, but there's no doubt in my mind that tariffs also had an influence on [00:19:55] Jeff Rittener: that. Right. So at at the end of the day, it sounds like you and [00:20:00] I are paying more as a result. Yeah, [00:20:04] Brian White: absolutely. I, again, I think it comes back to the consumers and it's the businesses. identifying how to manage those costs, right? So the importers, whether it's raw materials of goods that or the raw materials that are imported to produce goods here in the U. S., that ultimately becomes a part of the cost of goods sold. So the business will ultimately pass that on the finished price if they can't absorb it. [00:20:32] Commercial Speaker: Global trade, it's the invisible force shaping boardrooms, stock markets, and your everyday life. Every deal, every tariff, every shipment across the ocean carries an impact. And if you want to stay ahead of the shifts in international trade, you need more than just headlines. You need insight. That's where Rittner Reflections comes in. We break down the dynamic and essential nature of cross border trade and the geopolitical winds that propel it forward. [00:21:00] Tariffs, export controls, sanctions, trade policies and ever changing supply chains aren't just numbers on a page. They're the pulse of the corporate world. Whether you're a CEO entrepreneur or just someone who wants to understand the forces behind the products you buy, this is where the world of trade meets real world impact. So stay ahead. Stay informed, stay reflective, subscribe to Rittner Reflections, where global trade gets personal, available wherever you get your podcasts and on RittnerReflections. com. [00:21:35] Jeff Rittener: You are listening to Rittner Reflections, a forum to address the dynamic, complex, and essential nature of cross border trade. In our world today, we are discussing tariffs with Intel's Senior Director of Trade Compliance and facilitation, Brian White. Brian. In. In my very first episode at the beginning of the year, I suggested that there are five [00:22:00] things we can be certain of in 2025 in the world of cross-border trade. One of these is the use of tariffs as a strategic tool. As a result, traders will need to adjust. and determine how to de risk and readjust supply chain to minimize disruption and the additional cost. I can imagine that in your career in retail, consumer electronics, food, beverage, agriculture, you have dealt with tariffs many times. Can you share with us what sort of actions you've taken to adjust or mitigate the monetary impact of these tariffs, or is there nothing really to do but pay? [00:22:39] Brian White: Yeah, that's a great question, Jeff. And there's a lot to do, right? There's, there's a lot of strategy that goes into identifying where you have opportunities to ultimately reduce the exposure for, for your company. Um, and it starts with partnerships and, and fully understanding the The scope and the details of your supply chain and conducting those risk assessments [00:23:00] and partnering with internal stakeholders and external suppliers as well as an identifying opportunities for supplier diversification. Right? Do you have opportunities to source products from other countries that may not be as impacted by the tariffs or have a lower rate of duty to bring those goods in? Or perhaps those suppliers are in countries that offer a free trade agreement that you can leverage in order to get. Uh, protection from those other methods would include tariff engineering. So, in trade, we also, we often refer to tariff engineering and we talked earlier about the harmonized tariff classification. You can have 1 product that could potentially fall into 5 different chapters or not. I wouldn't say chapters, but different headings, right? Whether it's 6, 8 or 10 digit is really doing the due diligence and evaluating existing rulings that are out there and identifying. How do you build a case to support? The right classification for the product legally and being able to defend that position in certain ways of doing that. You can also [00:24:00] apply for a ruling with U. S. Customs and border protection to get them to memorialize your classification of that product. Other opportunities include. The negotiation with those suppliers, if you're unable to diversify that supply chain or adjust, how can you really back help to back into their cost structure and identify ways to bring down and make their production process more cost efficient? We talked a bit about leveraging trade agreements. There's also recovery programs, whether it's a drawback reconciliation, or even doing post summary corrections for potential errors that may have happened in the past. Another lever that you've seen being pulled over the last probably 510 years more. More often now than I think historically is using first sale. So evaluating opportunities to take the first sale price, the value in a multi party transaction. And then finally another strategy that we've seen used and I think the North American Free Trade Zone [00:25:00] Association would also promote this as well as using free trade zones as a means to help to mitigate the duty, if not. Entirely, but to help you unlock cash while you have the goods within that facility. [00:25:12] Jeff Rittener: Yeah. Speaking of, uh, trade zones, I know many importers use them around the world. And could you help us understand what, what exactly is a free trade zone and how does it help you? Reduce, you know, the cost. Yeah, [00:25:25] Brian White: absolutely. I mean, free trade zones is typically what we refer to them here in the U. S. you know, outside of the U. S. their economic bonded zones that carry a number of different acronyms, depending on the country. But ultimately, these, these bonded economic zones are foreign free trade zones. It's a designated area within a country where it's considered foreign territory. So products, materials and goods can be. Brought into this designated territory, they can be stored. They can be further processed with the benefit of having reduced or deferring the customs duties. So they don't [00:26:00] technically enter the commerce of that country. Leveraging FTZs it really helps to mitigate tariffs by allowing them to delay the duty payment until the goods enter that domestic market where they're ultimately being consumed or potentially to reconfigure or finalize the production. And then export that product and avoid having to pay the duty in that market entirely. [00:26:23] Jeff Rittener: Great. Well, it sounds like that's something that Most people should be exploring Uh as we absolutely period of uh, unprecedented, uh tariff wars Uh, you know back when I was at intel during trump 1. 0 we established at intel a duty drawback program you mentioned this earlier as one of the That means that you could take to, uh, to recover duties that you've already paid. Could you walk us through how, how does it actually work? So, I mean, how can you get those, those monies back? What do you have to do? [00:26:51] Brian White: Yeah, it's quite complex actually. Uh, so drawback is the method where there are a variety of options. [00:27:00] To claim drawback and ultimately in its simplest form is you've imported products or materials into it into the U. S. it's very specific to the U. S. those products or materials were incorporated into a finished good or into a product and then later exported from the United States, meaning they never entered the commerce for. sale in the U. S. So if an importer is able to demonstrate that they first imported that product, they paid the duties and taxes at that time of the original import, and they can directly connected to the export of that same product or the further process products that left the U. S. You can go back and reclaim the original duties that were paid during the initial import. Um, and it's a matter of reconciling the data and having very good inventory control mechanisms to track that 1st point of import the duties that were paid and then being able to trace that element or that component to the [00:28:00] point in time that it was exported from the U. S. I think drawback is a is a wonderful program. It provides a Fantastic benefits for producers and manufacturers that are here in the U. S. that are incorporating goods and materials into a finished good and then later exporting it. I think the biggest challenge now, and I've, I've talked with a couple of my legal friends in the business as well as when you look at the recent announcements on these tariffs, they've made it very clear that. For the new tariffs being introduced, they are no longer eligible for drawback. And there is a legal precedent for this. We think it will be challenged in court, but the problem is it's, it's going to be wrapped up for so long. It's going to prevent many companies from taking advantage of this for the more recent tariffs that have been introduced. [00:28:49] Jeff Rittener: Right. And one of the challenges I recall, as we You know, worked on this program at Intel was just the incredible reliance on your systems. Absolutely. [00:29:00] And being able to, to actually identify the information that's needed to, you know, to demonstrate the, the, the, you know, the out and the in and so on. So I don't, is that, is that been your experience as well? Yeah, it's fundamental. [00:29:13] Brian White: You have to be able to reconcile it, right? So you have to have not only a good record of the original import, date, time, line level details from your declaration, but you also have to be able to track that material or that product through your inventory life cycle to say, okay. We have good controls to ensure that that original product that was imported was represented in this export declaration and be able to reconcile those two to demonstrate proof to the government should you need to. [00:29:40] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, yeah, no, that's, uh, it is, it is, uh, obviously it's a one way to, uh, to reduce your costs, obviously, but it sounds like it comes with a lot of work. Um, you know, you've, you've outlined a number of things that companies can do. Is there anything else that you can think of that companies should consider? Uh, to mitigate that this additional cost that they're incurring [00:29:58] Brian White: now, you know, I [00:30:00] think we've talked about a number of the mitigation opportunities that are out there to help lower the exposure. We've talked about potentially even bonded warehouses for finished goods, which ultimately allow you to bring in products through a service providers warehouse that's bonded and you would only have to pay the duty at the point of time. They leave that facility. So it unlocks cash for that period of time. But you'll still be required to pay the duty at the time that it enters into the U. S. Historically under the section 301, we had tariff exemptions and we had waivers. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be the case for these. Hopefully we can find those opportunities. The other area I think we talked about earlier also is advanced rulings with customs, right? Making sure you're getting confirmation of your tariff classifications to avoid disputes at the time of entry and make sure that you're able to protect that. Duty avoidance that you've put together. I think being very specific or or having a strategic approach to valuation as well.[00:31:00] Whether it's 1st sale or other methods to get to the right transactional price for that specific import is another opportunity and then collectively as a, as a trade industry is working through your associations, right? And working with your colleagues to, uh, identify opportunities for advocacy, um, engaging in the industry, um, associations to advance your position as a company and work to influence trade policy. And at the end of the day, hopefully those tariff decisions. [00:31:29] Jeff Rittener: Yeah. It's, it's pretty obvious here that, uh, you know, companies and organizations are going to have to adjust. They're going to have to change their current practices and look at new capabilities and maybe even additional resources. You know, these tariffs are going to force, I think, force organizations to have to do more with probably less. And so I don't know if you can give us any insights and any BKMs on how to manage that internally. How, I mean, you're managing a large team. How do you, how do you address this ongoing [00:32:00] additional work and yet still keep the business running? That's the challenge of the year. It's been the challenge [00:32:06] Brian White: of the last three years, right? And I think to succeed in a resource constrained environment, we have to adopt a number of different best practices. And I think first and foremost is you have to be able to prioritize the high impact activities. So focusing on. those initiatives and areas that offer the greatest return, right? And the, and the greatest risk mitigation, uh, that you can achieve. And it starts first and foremost, I'm a data geek, right? You have to start with good data so you can have all the best AI tools and technology in the world. If you don't have good underlying data, you're not going to get good insights. You're not going to have the ability to effectively quantify this. So, focusing on good underlying data and developing the tools that help you assess and quantify that risk exposure so that you can [00:33:00] get your teams directly Prioritizing those specific areas. Um, so, as you prioritize those, you have good data. The other side of the house is making sure you're cross training and you're developing your team. So, making sure your team members have a diverse skill set to handle multiple roles that will help to increase the flexibility and the resilience of your team. 1 expert on any 1 topic. You're in trouble. Make sure you're diversifying that mix across the team. I think the other area too is leveraging your partnerships, right? So, both internally as well as externally work with your customs brokers work with consultants and other members in the trade professional, um, trade compliance professional area too. Have access to more information and better insights on what's coming. What do you see other clients managing and how can you take advantage of that to bring those backs, best practices and house? [00:33:58] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, those are really, really good [00:34:00] pieces of advice. I think for organizations, um, you and I, you talked about data. I think you and I have had many, many conversations on the importance of data and in our world today, data typically resides in the systems. Yeah. So if you don't have good systems or if you have too many systems or, or systems that don't accurately capture the data you need, it can be a real challenge. So any, any thoughts or any ideas about systems, what sort of, uh, systems would you, you know, use to, to accomplish this? [00:34:31] Brian White: For me, it's around creating data lakes, right? So for trade, we have a number of different areas that we need to collect data from in order to develop insights and quantify the risk or the exposure for our companies. So, first and foremost, capturing line level data from. Your service providers. So every broker you use capturing line level reports of their declaration records for their imports, as well as their exports in the U S we have the tool through ACE [00:35:00] is use the Oh three entry summary report. It's got the line level detail and make sure you're reconciling those. And I like to think of data in three buckets. You have. And then you have your service provider data, which is the declaration data they have on record on behalf of your company in which you've authorized them to do. You have the 2nd, which is the government database storage and then the 3rd is the company related data. So procurement records, sales orders, records, uh. Your 3rd party details around the businesses in which you're doing business and all of your transportation related data, right? Your anything that's moved in the system and being able to create connections across these 3 segments of data to really start to quantify and identify insights and understanding your full trade profile, right? Getting the statistics. What are your volumes? What's your annual entered value? What's your. Uh, your duty rate, what free trade agreements are you leveraging? What ports of entry [00:36:00] are you leveraging? What sort of discrepancies do you see? Uh, what classifications do you have across all of these and do the classifications match between your ERP parts file and what the broker has been using, and then also what the government has on file [00:36:13] Jeff Rittener: and that's really important. I think today we hear. How AI is becoming in everything, right? It's, it's, and, and I think one of the things that is important with AI is data. So when I think of trade and all of the data, as you just described it, it seems like it's ripe for AI solutions. Are you looking at any AI solutions? Are you using AI? Can companies, you know, leverage AI to really help their, their operations become more efficient and more effective? What do you think on that? Absolutely. [00:36:42] Brian White: No question about it, right? AI is the future. And I think again, we have to make sure that we're developing the right underlying data for AI to leverage and using AI. It can help to develop predicted analytics to identify the anomalies in your data and point you to areas that [00:37:00] you may not have otherwise had visibility to. If you're only doing a. A statistic sample of sampling for self testing, for example, the other areas where I has a very strong promise that we're actually leveraging today at Intel is through classification right through products and descriptions and the technical specifications of materials that exist in our product masters is building the rules engines based on not only those The specific parameters that are related to that product, but also historic information to arrive at the right tariff classification. We're doing thousands, hundreds of thousands of classifications. And many of these today are leveraging capabilities to do so. Um, and I think the, the future of AI with the caveat of having good underlying data. The potential is absolutely there. I'm really looking forward to looking for future investments in this area. [00:37:53] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more. I just think we're at a, at a really interesting point. And I, all this focus on tariffs, [00:38:00] the tariff wars and everything is having everybody go back and adjust and really looking at their tools, their systems and their data to figure out how, because at the end of the day you want to reduce costs. And anytime you want to reduce costs, you've got to look hard at what you're doing and how you're doing it. So I think it is a great opportunity in the world of trade. Um, you know, shifting to, you mentioned these, these three categories, if you call them data lakes and so on. And you said one of those was a government. Yeah. So thinking about the government for a minute, when I think about the long list of potential tariffs that might be coming around the world. And I think about our government, you know, Customs, Border and Protection, how are they going to manage all of that? You know, the, the, the different tariffs from different countries on different products. Any, any thoughts on how they're going to handle this? [00:38:47] Brian White: Yeah, it's, it's not going to be easy, right? I feel for our colleagues in CBP that to have to figure out how to operationalize some of these policy decisions. And I think when you [00:39:00] look at. The prior implementation of tariff remedies. You saw the, the introduction and the use of chapter 99 right inside of the tariff to capture these different elements. But if, if we go down the route of component level tariffs, or reciprocal tariffs at a country and 10 digit level, the complexities just, it's a force multiplier at that point. And I'm not confident that. The current infrastructure of the environment is going to be able to support that sort of complexity and it's going to require we call it human glue. It will require CBP to have some human glue to figure out how to piece this together until they can start to automate those systems to manage the variables that exist with this complexity. [00:39:45] Jeff Rittener: Yeah. And I, my, my anticipation with all of this is, um, will be the word delay. I just see, I think things will slow down because as you talked about human glue and not having maybe the right data at the right place, I could just see a [00:40:00] delay. So hopefully that's not where we're headed, but, um, speaking of where we're headed, you know, to kind of wrap up here, let's, let's talk a bit about the future. I mean, I mean, it's hard to kind of imagine right now, cause there's so much uncertainty with what might happen. But as we look at the future, how do you see this? Unprecedented use. I mean, you've talked about using tariffs throughout history, but this seems a little bit unprecedented the way it's being used today. And how do you, how do you see this playing out? [00:40:29] Brian White: It's a great question, Jeff. I think you opened with saying by the time you publish this, it's likely going to be different, right? What I've tried to temper our team with is clarity on details versus a post on X or a tweet by the president. Right? And you see these, these tactics leveraged by this administration to put very broad statements around tariffs or aggressive positions, but when it comes to the actual orders, the orders is where it defines what we actually need to do. [00:41:00] So, I think we have to balance the dynamics of Policy by tweet or policy by X versus getting formal direction, whether it's at an executive order level, or a formal use and leverage of 232 or section 301 or so that we could take action. Um, so it's going to be. Continue to be a dynamic environment. I have to, I think for trade professionals, we have to remain agile. We have to, again, have to have our data ready. We have to know where the data exists in our system so that when it becomes clear what the tariffs are, as they're introduced formally, to be able to quickly quantify that exposure and engage with your leadership so they understand what your team is doing to help manage those risks. [00:41:46] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, I think there's no doubt, uh, that. The role of trade in a corporation today has, has to be, has become so important and I think, uh, you know, looking at our [00:42:00] organizations and figuring out how do we make sure we have the right talent, as you said earlier, and making sure we're really addressing, uh, You know, the, the data and the, uh, you know, and the, the opportunities through some of these mitigation, uh, opportunities that you mentioned. So I think it's a, it's a great opportunity for teams, for, for trade teams to, uh, to adjust and to, uh, to really deliver value to, to the company. Yeah, [00:42:23] Brian White: honestly, Jeff, you know, I think I've shared this with you in the past. In the last 10 years, there's no better time to be in the trade profession. I absolutely love it. It's created an entirely new dynamic where folks that previously would have been back office kind of entry writing processing folks. We're now a strategic element and in leveraging compliance as a strategic enabler for our. Corporations, our companies and our clients that we serve and finding the opportunities to do that. [00:42:49] Jeff Rittener: Yeah, super exciting. It's a great, as you said, it's a great time to be in this, in this field. You know, speaking of that, oftentimes I'm asked, uh, in response to these podcasts, you know, for [00:43:00] advice on career. You know, folks that are first starting out in this, in this field, you know, they want to know what should I do? How can I, how can I enhance my career in this area? Do you have any advice for those folks just getting started in this? Goodness. [00:43:12] Brian White: Yeah. I think, um, start with being informed, right? Identify sources for global trade news. Um, start to evaluate the trends and the broader context around trade compliance and the trade profession. Uh, second, I would say build a network, right? There are a lot of wonderful people. And our trade practice community is take the time to connect with industry professionals, join trade associations and learn from others. And you'll find most people in this industry. They're willing to share their insights and their war stories of what they've gone through and how they've navigated. Also, focusing on developing a strong foundation of trade regulations, right? And compliance and logistics operations, understanding the dynamics of the global supply chain [00:44:00] and the requirements based on the commodity or the type of products that you're interested in pursuing or company. Make sure you have a good foundation on those trade requirements. We talked about technology. We have to embrace technology. You have to constantly familiarize yourself with the latest in the emerging technologies that are really going to and enhance our efficiency, our ability to make faster decisions and really transform our profession entirely. Right? And shift how we manage the work on behalf of our clients. And finally, I think. Just adaptability. We have to be adaptable. Um, the trade landscape is constantly changing by the day, by the hour. And, uh, we have to be open to learning and adapting to those new challenges. [00:44:44] Jeff Rittener: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Uh, throughout my career, as you know, Brian, I've often told my, the teams of people under me is that we have to learn to be comfortable in the chaos because chaos. Yeah, you go. And that's just part of the job description. Anyway, um, you know, [00:45:00] finally, Brian, this has been an amazing conversation. Just so much insight from you on, on the realities of dealing with, with tariffs in particular, in the middle of a tariff war, any parting advice to the global trade community? Buckle up buttercup, you [00:45:16] Brian White: know, you know, as we in the trade community continue to navigate these challenging times. Uh, we'll have to do what we talked about earlier more collaboration. We have to invest in talent. We have to invest in technology. Um, and. Focus on our people, right? Our people are going to help us navigate through this and quantify the exposure and working with leadership for it. So, um, focus on that resilience and unlocking that value. [00:45:43] Jeff Rittener: Well, Brian, thank you so much for joining me on to talk about such an incredibly important topic. And I think just listening to you today, I think, um, I, as I said, at the beginning, I think, um, you're. the right person at the right time at [00:46:00] Intel to help Intel navigate through these really challenging times. So I, uh, I appreciate all of your insight. I always have appreciated working with you and the collaboration we've had, and I hope one day to show up around the 4th of July and, uh, at your place. Please [00:46:16] Brian White: do. It's explosive, Jeff. Yeah. And it's mutual. I really appreciate. Having the opportunity to meet you for your leadership and Intel and your help, both mentoring and coaching me through this time in my career. I'm so grateful for, for that opportunity. And thank you for having me here today and being able to share insights around tariffs. [00:46:37] Jeff Rittener: You have been listening to Rittner Reflections episode number five. This is a forum to address the dynamic and essential nature of cross border trade. In our world today, I'd like to thank you for joining and thank my producer Keith Belmar and we'll talk to you again soon [00:47:00] You