Latest / Credlin / Credlin | 24 September

Transcript

Credlin | 24 September · Credlin

0:02
Speaker 1: Peter Credlin, live from News 24.
0:08
Speaker 2: Good evening. Welcome to the program. Here's what's coming up
0:10
Speaker 2: on Credlin. A data breach that happened months ago. A
0:14
Speaker 2: prime minister that was told about it on the weekend.
0:16
Speaker 2: The poor old Australians only found out about it today.
0:20
Speaker 2: So time to reinstate the AI expert panel the prime
0:24
Speaker 2: minister dumped. We'll talk to one of the men on
0:27
Speaker 2: that panel in a moment. Yet more warnings about rent
0:30
Speaker 2: increases driven by Labor's tax hikes amid fears more Australians
0:35
Speaker 2: will end up in social housing as properties up for
0:38
Speaker 2: sale languish in a stagnant market. Fears the cost of
0:41
Speaker 2: diesel could top $ 4 a litre, as farmers warn they
0:45
Speaker 2: can't absorb another financial hit, nor too can the trucking sector.
0:50
Speaker 2: And never mind today's crime stats revealing a shoplifting epidemic
0:54
Speaker 2: in Victoria, the Premier now wants to throw open the
0:56
Speaker 2: doors to the pub until 3am.
1:00
Speaker 3: We're going to make sure, as an automatic right, the
1:02
Speaker 3: pubs can open to 3am. Today it's about supporting small businesses.
1:08
Speaker 3: They're in the heart of every community, pubs, publicans, more
1:12
Speaker 3: patrons means more jobs and a great local thriving economy.
1:19
Speaker 2: They call it bread and circuses in campaign times. That
1:22
Speaker 2: is what that is. First, revelations today that multiple Australian
1:27
Speaker 2: government systems were infiltrated by a leading US artificial intelligence
1:31
Speaker 2: company called OpenAI and should surprise no one.
1:37
Speaker 4: This incident occurred in June this year and involved an
1:41
Speaker 4: open AI agent gaining unauthorised access into the public-facing Medicare
1:47
Speaker 4: Statistics Reporting Service portal.
1:52
Speaker 2: And no surprises. After all, the Albanese government's far more
1:55
Speaker 2: concerned with censoring what you can access on the internet
1:59
Speaker 2: than it is with protecting the sensitive information it holds online.
2:02
Speaker 2: and keeps safe from compromise.
2:06
Speaker 5: I note that the Prime Minister gave a keynote speech
2:08
Speaker 5: back in July on AI. He made a big song
2:12
Speaker 5: and dance about it. He did not even mention cyber
2:15
Speaker 5: defence and the importance of defence against AI attacks on
2:22
Speaker 5: our critical systems. He didn't mention it. It wasn't even
2:25
Speaker 5: part of his speech. Now we need better than that
2:27
Speaker 5: from this Prime Minister and we need better than that
2:30
Speaker 5: from his ministers.
2:33
Speaker 2: Later in the program, we'll speak with Professor Toby Walsh,
2:36
Speaker 2: one of Australia's foremost AI experts, to understand exactly what
2:40
Speaker 2: went wrong here and what should happen now to get
2:44
Speaker 2: ahead of the AI risks. But know this, Professor Walsh
2:48
Speaker 2: was appointed by the Prime Minister to join an expert
2:51
Speaker 2: AI panel to advise government about all of these very
2:54
Speaker 2: important cyber issues. It was an unpaid role that he
2:58
Speaker 2: thought was ongoing, a role he agreed to do because
3:01
Speaker 2: he cares about his country. Instead, the Prime Minister disbanded
3:06
Speaker 2: his own AI expert panel after only a couple of months.
3:11
Speaker 2: Without experts advising the Albanese government, Australia's flying blind as
3:15
Speaker 2: the rest of the world moves fast in the arms
3:18
Speaker 2: race of AI. And we are falling behind because of
3:22
Speaker 2: sheer incompetence, ignorance and likely lack of funding to put
3:27
Speaker 2: in place the cybersecurity architecture that Australia must have. That's because, yes,
3:34
Speaker 2: AI is a powerful tool for good, but there are
3:37
Speaker 2: also very real and significant risks. We know it will
3:41
Speaker 2: transform business. It'll reform productivity. But that will come at
3:45
Speaker 2: the cost of jobs as well as deliver economic gains.
3:49
Speaker 2: So we need to have our eyes wide open on
3:51
Speaker 2: all of this. As with the Industrial Revolution, we can
3:54
Speaker 2: probably now make a good fist at modelling the commercial
3:58
Speaker 2: gains from AI. But that's not where I'm focused. What's
4:02
Speaker 2: always concerned me here is the military and national security
4:06
Speaker 2: applications of AI. What happens when a rogue state or
4:10
Speaker 2: a terror group uses AI to create a deadly new
4:14
Speaker 2: biological weapon? Or perhaps a new explosive that can bring
4:18
Speaker 2: down aircraft that's not detectable when carried through airport security screening?
4:24
Speaker 2: Right now, the only real AI debate that Albanese is
4:27
Speaker 2: having is data centres and whether or not they use
4:31
Speaker 2: renewable power. I mean, overseas, they're laughing at us, trying
4:35
Speaker 2: to power AI with wind and solar and while they
4:38
Speaker 2: use our uranium to power high-end new reactors or our
4:43
Speaker 2: coal and gas, ensuring they have reliable baseload to run
4:47
Speaker 2: their AI, why we just muddle along, caught between a
4:50
Speaker 2: rock and a hard place, saying we're all for AI
4:53
Speaker 2: and net zero, when clearly you can't have both. It's
4:57
Speaker 2: critical that voters are not fooled here, because there's no
5:01
Speaker 2: doubt that Albanese wants to try and conflate the issue
5:05
Speaker 2: of AI safety And this example today of the Medicare
5:09
Speaker 2: hack is real with his digital duty of care legislation,
5:14
Speaker 2: but they are two very different things. AI safety and
5:19
Speaker 2: a properly resourced cybersecurity apparatus in Australia involving our spy
5:23
Speaker 2: and military intelligence agencies is a good thing. And in
5:27
Speaker 2: broad terms, I'd also support some sort of global guardrails
5:32
Speaker 2: provided they are sensible and limited. But they can't constrain
5:37
Speaker 2: good countries like Australia from developing as we must, given
5:41
Speaker 2: that bad actors will ignore all rules anyway. But Labor's
5:46
Speaker 2: digital duty of care legislation is not about any of this.
5:51
Speaker 2: Digital duty of care is about censorship. It's about restricting
5:56
Speaker 2: or stopping the information that adults can access, the information
6:00
Speaker 2: they get on their devices. And this was precisely what
6:04
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister admitted himself in comments yesterday at the
6:09
Speaker 2: United Nations.
6:11
Speaker 4: The truth is this is having an impact on our
6:14
Speaker 4: entire society and how it functions with misinformation, disinformation, with
6:20
Speaker 4: the increased polarisation that we're seeing as well in the
6:24
Speaker 4: political system where people are moving away from the centre
6:29
Speaker 4: and more and more to the extremes, be they of
6:31
Speaker 4: the left or the right.
6:34
Speaker 2: That line there about misinformation, disinformation, about the left and
6:38
Speaker 2: the right of politics is a killer. It shows Albanese's
6:42
Speaker 2: true motivation here. And the fact that the Prime Minister's
6:46
Speaker 2: office took those references out of his media transcript to
6:50
Speaker 2: try and stop us from noticing what he said, says
6:53
Speaker 2: it all. Something that Sarah Henderson was quick to pick
6:56
Speaker 2: up when speaking with me here last night.
7:00
Speaker 6: That speech that he gave today, they've now removed that
7:03
Speaker 6: damning extraordinary section from the transcript on the Prime Minister's
7:08
Speaker 6: media website. So talk about disinformation on the Prime Minister's
7:13
Speaker 6: own website.
7:15
Speaker 2: Yes, sensible regulation about the architecture of AI should be
7:20
Speaker 2: looked at with the caveat that, as always with Labor,
7:24
Speaker 2: the devil's in the detail. But banning content under yet
7:29
Speaker 2: to be defined definitions of harm at the whim of
7:33
Speaker 2: Labor's communications minister, Annika Wells, well, that must be opposed.
7:39
Speaker 6: The real story here is that the minister has unfettered
7:42
Speaker 6: powers to decide any category of harm that should be
7:47
Speaker 6: shut down. It is all about shutting down what people
7:50
Speaker 6: can say and see online. It's all about shutting down
7:53
Speaker 6: the political opponents of Labor.
7:56
Speaker 2: Don't buy the Albanese government's BS here. This is not
8:00
Speaker 2: about keeping children safe online. There are already a myriad
8:05
Speaker 2: of laws to do this now. Laws to ban kids
8:07
Speaker 2: under 16 from social media. Laws to deal with online
8:11
Speaker 2: child exploitation, child pornography. Laws against things like enabling acts
8:16
Speaker 2: of terrorism, like bomb making. Or as we saw yesterday
8:20
Speaker 2: with the arrest of Mohamed Bakhit, laws against the alleged
8:24
Speaker 2: membership of Islamic terror organisations and the spreading of online propaganda.
8:29
Speaker 2: We already have all of these laws. Now, if they're
8:33
Speaker 2: not tough enough, put them back into the parliament before
8:36
Speaker 2: Christmas and make them tougher. But we cannot allow the
8:39
Speaker 2: Albanese government to use these issues as cover to shut
8:43
Speaker 2: down legitimate debates that they don't want to have to
8:47
Speaker 2: stop you finding out the truth or to stop the media,
8:51
Speaker 2: at least some of the media, from holding the Prime
8:54
Speaker 2: Minister and his government to account. Labor's petrified at the
8:59
Speaker 2: way the online world has democratised information access. And the
9:04
Speaker 2: left blames online media for the rise of One Nation,
9:08
Speaker 2: for Trump and for reform in the United Kingdom as well. Now,
9:12
Speaker 2: for a long time, the left had a pretty cosy
9:15
Speaker 2: cartel with media players like the ABC that basically ran
9:20
Speaker 2: paid advertising for Labor and the left. Well, not so anymore,
9:24
Speaker 2: as people have turned away from news sources like that
9:28
Speaker 2: and pick up their devices and go digging on their own. Now,
9:31
Speaker 2: what that's done is it's exposed Labor's slick spin machine
9:35
Speaker 2: for what it is, and record low approval polls for
9:39
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister are the result. This is why Labor
9:44
Speaker 2: are panicking. That's why Albanese wants the whole show shut down.
9:49
Speaker 2: It's got nothing to do with children, It's about censorship
9:53
Speaker 2: and power. The other point I want to make in
9:55
Speaker 2: relation to the hack being put into the media domain
9:59
Speaker 2: today is the fact that the Prime Minister was told
10:02
Speaker 2: about this open AI break into Medicare on the weekend.
10:08
Speaker 2: Only you were told today. So why keep it a
10:12
Speaker 2: secret for much of the week? I'd say it's got
10:16
Speaker 2: a lot to do with this ridiculous award he picked
10:19
Speaker 2: up in New York overnight as some sort of international
10:23
Speaker 2: statesman when at home, clearly, he's a laughingstock. Labor hardheads
10:28
Speaker 2: would have thought, gee, this award comes at a shocking
10:32
Speaker 2: time for the government. Those appalling polls on Monday, the
10:35
Speaker 2: threat of a rate rise next week. Reports today too
10:39
Speaker 2: that diesel fuel will be rationed, some predicting it could
10:43
Speaker 2: hit as high as $ 4 a litre. So what better
10:46
Speaker 2: way to get the award off the front pages and
10:49
Speaker 2: for all the mocking to stop, but to throw out
10:52
Speaker 2: this story of a government systems hack. What's also telling
10:57
Speaker 2: is the fact the hack occurred back in June. It
11:00
Speaker 2: was only uncovered because the company fessed up. Our security
11:04
Speaker 2: systems in Canberra, they didn't pick it up. We only
11:07
Speaker 2: know about it because the company emailed the bureaucrats to
11:11
Speaker 2: tell them what had happened and And the Prime Minister
11:13
Speaker 2: then held off making this information public until he needed
11:17
Speaker 2: a distraction. What a joke. Now, I'll say this again.
11:22
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever met, ever seen a more
11:25
Speaker 2: underwhelming individual occupy the highest office in this country. He's
11:30
Speaker 2: out of touch. He's intellectually out of his depth. And
11:34
Speaker 2: he lacks character. And there isn't a worse political trifecta
11:39
Speaker 2: than that. All right, let's get the headlines. That and
11:46
Speaker 2: more with our political reporter, Ruben Spargo.
11:49
Speaker 1: Good evening. The Australian government is launching a task force
11:52
Speaker 1: to counter AI cyber threats after a rogue open AI
11:56
Speaker 1: agent hacked into Medicare data. The rapid review will help
12:00
Speaker 1: determine whether current arrangements are fit for purpose to prepare
12:03
Speaker 1: for and respond to incidents. This is an unintended access,
12:09
Speaker 1: that's clear, but it definitely does raise questions about whether
12:13
Speaker 1: The law has been broken in respect of this. The
12:16
Speaker 1: opposition is calling for the Australian Signals Directorate's funding to
12:19
Speaker 1: be increased to better detect threats.
12:21
Speaker 7: We need to be significantly scaling up and upgrading our
12:24
Speaker 7: cyber defences and actually.
12:26
Speaker 1: The best tools to do that are artificial intelligence tools.
12:30
Speaker 1: One of the government's major concerns is the technology is
12:32
Speaker 1: moving so quickly it is outpacing Australia's ability to respond.
12:37
Speaker 1: The coalition is vowing to dismantle Labor's renewables policy if
12:41
Speaker 1: it wins the next election. A bill would be introduced
12:44
Speaker 1: to Parliament to remove the legislated target of net zero
12:47
Speaker 1: by 2050 and the safeguard mechanism designed to limit industry emissions.
12:52
Speaker 8: You can subsidise our industrial base to keep jobs onshore
12:56
Speaker 8: and pursue a renewables-only approach, as Labor is doing, or
12:59
Speaker 8: you can actually use the resources that are under our
13:02
Speaker 8: very feet that have made us a rich and wealthy nation.
13:06
Speaker 1: The plan would also scrap vehicle emission standards and shift
13:09
Speaker 1: the Australian energy regulator's focus to affordability.
13:14
Speaker 2: All right, let's get into that more. News24 contributor Carolee
13:17
Speaker 2: Katzenbarnes back with us after a pretty rugged few months
13:21
Speaker 2: and Deputy Executive Director at the IPA, Dan Wild. Carolee,
13:24
Speaker 2: as I said, you've been here on the program, I
13:27
Speaker 2: should say, but you've had a lot going on at home.
13:29
Speaker 2: You lost your beautiful husband, Peter. We gave him a
13:32
Speaker 2: terrific send-off on Friday, so we're delighted to have you
13:36
Speaker 2: back in the chair, mate. It's so good to have
13:38
Speaker 2: you here. Let's start with the AI data breach. A
13:41
Speaker 2: few points I want to note here. This happened in June,
13:44
Speaker 2: PM told on the weekend, but we only learn about
13:47
Speaker 2: it today. The notification about the breach didn't come from
13:51
Speaker 2: the government, it came from the company, and they had
13:53
Speaker 2: to email a public access point or an email box
13:58
Speaker 2: to tell us what was happening. I'll speak to an
14:00
Speaker 2: expert in a moment about what you can do now
14:04
Speaker 2: to turn this around. Surely, Dan... Labor needs that panel
14:09
Speaker 2: of experts to be rapidly reinstated.
14:14
Speaker 9: Well, that's right, Peter.
14:14
Speaker 10: There's a couple of things here for me. Firstly, the
14:18
Speaker 10: timing of it, as you alluded to in your monologue,
14:21
Speaker 10: has coincided with providing some space for Anthony Albanese's award.
14:26
Speaker 10: And now because things are going sour, as you know
14:29
Speaker 10: from your experience in politics, they keep these things in
14:32
Speaker 10: their back pocket. and roll it out when they want
14:34
Speaker 10: to change the topic of discussion in the news. Now,
14:37
Speaker 10: I know that sounds cynical, but unfortunately, that's often why.
14:41
Speaker 10: People at home wonder, why is this just coming out now?
14:43
Speaker 10: This is often the reason why. There's a very strong
14:45
Speaker 10: political reason for it. The other thing also, as you
14:48
Speaker 10: alluded to, was the government has taken its eye off
14:51
Speaker 10: the ball. When it comes to the internet, when it
14:54
Speaker 10: comes to the online world, they are not focused on
14:57
Speaker 10: things like AI security. They are focused on government censorship
15:02
Speaker 10: of Australians through their digital duty of care legislation. So
15:07
Speaker 10: this is a government that is not focused on the
15:09
Speaker 10: things that matter to our national interest. The other thing
15:12
Speaker 10: I would be very interested in, Peter, is why was
15:15
Speaker 10: that task force that you mentioned, why was it disbanded,
15:18
Speaker 10: I wonder? Was it disbanded because they were providing advice
15:22
Speaker 10: to the Prime Minister or to his ministers or senior
15:24
Speaker 10: advisers that was inconvenient and they did not want to hear?
15:28
Speaker 10: I wonder if that was one of the reasons.
15:31
Speaker 2: Well, we'll ask one of those experts in a moment.
15:34
Speaker 2: My point at the top of the show there about
15:36
Speaker 2: this conflation by the government between appropriate, and I'm saying appropriate,
15:41
Speaker 2: I don't want big regulation, but appropriate regulation of the
15:45
Speaker 2: AI environment, and then Labor's try-on with this digital duty
15:50
Speaker 2: of care, trying to put the two things together when
15:52
Speaker 2: I argue they're very, very different, Kerri-Lee. The debate about censorship,
15:57
Speaker 2: if we don't have sufficient laws to We've already got
16:00
Speaker 2: a range of mechanisms that we can improve. But this
16:03
Speaker 2: is about stopping Australians getting information that will send the
16:06
Speaker 2: Prime Minister's personal rating even lower. This is an election strategy.
16:12
Speaker 2: It's not about keeping people safe or children safe online
16:15
Speaker 2: at all. It's not.
16:17
Speaker 11: And Australians are being gaslit once again by Anthony Albanese
16:20
Speaker 11: in the Albanese government. I mean, the digital duty of care,
16:23
Speaker 11: it's nothing more than just a political censorship bill. And
16:27
Speaker 11: he's preying on the fears of parents and other caregivers.
16:32
Speaker 11: And as you say, conflating the two together. This is
16:35
Speaker 11: an extraordinary attack on free speech for Australians, but it's
16:39
Speaker 11: also extraordinary that this would give the communications minister completely
16:44
Speaker 11: unfettered power without a parliamentary oversight as to what they
16:49
Speaker 11: deem to be harmful and what they don't. And I
16:51
Speaker 11: think it's a bit rich of him to do this.
16:53
Speaker 11: And as Sarah Henderson pointed out last night, It's just extraordinary.
16:57
Speaker 11: But the problem is he is relying on merging the
17:01
Speaker 11: two together so that people don't know what will happen.
17:03
Speaker 11: But it's really good that you're pointing it out, because
17:06
Speaker 11: the more that we can point out to the Australian
17:08
Speaker 11: people that the digital duty of care is completely different
17:11
Speaker 11: to AI regulation, the better that it will be. And
17:15
Speaker 11: it's like communist China. This is not what should be
17:18
Speaker 11: happening in a Western democracy like Australia.
17:22
Speaker 2: They tried, didn't they, Dan, during the voice debate to
17:25
Speaker 2: shut us down. I know they tried the IPA to
17:27
Speaker 2: get you offline. They certainly tried a number of times
17:30
Speaker 2: with Bea about the Uluru Statement of the Heart. But
17:34
Speaker 2: this would succeed, that sort of move would succeed second
17:39
Speaker 2: time around if they had this legislation in place.
17:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
17:44
Speaker 10: This is a really good point because, as I mentioned
17:47
Speaker 10: the other week or the week before, this is really
17:49
Speaker 10: the third crack that the government has had. at trying
17:52
Speaker 10: to do this. They had the misinformation laws back in 2024.
17:55
Speaker 10: They had a crack at some hate speech laws earlier
17:58
Speaker 10: this year. Now they're having another crack at it now.
18:01
Speaker 10: Ever since they lost the voice to Parliament debate, this
18:03
Speaker 10: government has convinced itself that what they need to do,
18:06
Speaker 10: rather than explaining to people, right, this is the thing
18:09
Speaker 10: about this government, it has never won an argument with
18:11
Speaker 10: the Australian people. It doesn't take its policies to the
18:14
Speaker 10: people and try to convince them of the legitimacy of
18:18
Speaker 10: those policies. What it does is it either just shoves
18:21
Speaker 10: it through Parliament and guillotines debate, or it just tries
18:23
Speaker 10: to censor debate and not have a debate whatsoever. So this,
18:26
Speaker 10: and you'll remember after the voice vote, what did Albanese
18:29
Speaker 10: and the chief campaigners blame? They blamed misinformation. Either you
18:33
Speaker 10: voted no because you're too dumb or you voted no
18:36
Speaker 10: because you're a racist, right? That is how this government thinks.
18:39
Speaker 10: They don't understand. People voted no because they thought it
18:41
Speaker 10: was a bad idea and they didn't want it. So, yeah,
18:43
Speaker 10: the government's going to try and push ahead with censorship
18:45
Speaker 10: and it would have a massively negative effect on our
18:48
Speaker 10: ability to to debate things in this country.
18:52
Speaker 2: Let's go to this report today that the Australian Energy
18:55
Speaker 2: Market Operator, AEMO, the regulator, is basically, they've got a
19:00
Speaker 2: plan to put the $ 50 million cost of EV charger
19:04
Speaker 2: rollout onto everyone's power bill across the country, whether you
19:09
Speaker 2: want an EV charger, whether you have an EV charger
19:13
Speaker 2: or not. Kerri-Lee, how can this be justified? We can't
19:15
Speaker 2: pay our bills as it is. Well, it's incredibly unfair.
19:19
Speaker 11: And I noticed that Anna Collier, who's the chair of
19:22
Speaker 11: the Australian Energy Market Commission, she's actually said that it
19:26
Speaker 11: would add $ 1 a year to people's power bills, average
19:30
Speaker 11: power bills. This is another example of gaslighting. We had
19:34
Speaker 11: this when they introduced the negative gearing things in the
19:36
Speaker 11: budget where they said rents would only rise by $ 2
19:39
Speaker 11: a week.
19:39
Speaker 2: That hasn't worked.
19:40
Speaker 11: This is appalling. I mean, this should be an industry thing.
19:44
Speaker 11: It is being run by private enterprise. They're putting their money,
19:47
Speaker 11: they're putting their things on.
19:49
Speaker 2: The line to do.
19:50
Speaker 11: This. To actually slug the Australian taxpayer, because about $ 20
19:53
Speaker 11: billion worth is needed for proper infrastructure, is just not fair.
19:58
Speaker 11: Australian consumers will be at a disadvantage. And the problem
20:01
Speaker 11: is this all ties into Chris Bowen's energy plans, etc.
20:05
Speaker 11: They just cannot accept They cannot accept that they have
20:08
Speaker 11: not invested properly into infrastructure and now they want to
20:11
Speaker 11: slug the Australian taxpayer with more. I'm really sorry for
20:15
Speaker 11: Anna Collier to say it would add an extra $ 1
20:17
Speaker 11: a year to the average Australian's power bill is an
20:20
Speaker 11: absolute insult. Poles and wires companies are monopoly and monopolies
20:25
Speaker 11: and we will all be paying the price for that.
20:28
Speaker 8: It's absolutely appalling.
20:31
Speaker 2: Dan, a quick one for you. Master Builders today issued
20:33
Speaker 2: a warning that rent increases are driving inflation. These are
20:36
Speaker 2: the ones out of the budget on the back of
20:38
Speaker 2: those tax hikes that are moving the rents, obviously. But
20:41
Speaker 2: those rent increases will send more people out of renting
20:44
Speaker 2: properties into social housing. We know, of course, the clearance
20:48
Speaker 2: rates on the weekend are very, very sluggish. In August,
20:52
Speaker 2: Sydney was at a six-year low in terms of, you know,
20:56
Speaker 2: how long properties were sitting there on the market and selling.
21:00
Speaker 2: It begs the question, I can't get a straight answer
21:02
Speaker 2: out of anyone in Canberra. What actually is the definition
21:06
Speaker 2: of social housing? Is this housing that we're subsidising as taxpayers?
21:11
Speaker 2: Talk me through what the truth is here.
21:15
Speaker 10: Well, in essence, yes, that's what it is. We now
21:17
Speaker 10: have almost a million Australians who are in social housing
21:19
Speaker 10: of some kind. Now, two-thirds roughly of that is in
21:23
Speaker 10: housing that is directly run and operated by the government itself.
21:27
Speaker 10: A few percent is in relation to Indigenous and then
21:30
Speaker 10: about 25 to 30 percent is through community organisations, many
21:34
Speaker 10: of whom receive government funding as well. So, yes, most
21:36
Speaker 10: of this is taxpayer funded housing that's then rented off
21:39
Speaker 10: to people who can't afford or can't find a rental property. Now,
21:42
Speaker 10: this is one of the great untold stories of the
21:45
Speaker 10: failure of this government's migration and housing programs, which is
21:49
Speaker 10: that there's many people who need social housing. If it
21:51
Speaker 10: weren't for social housing, they'd be on the street. But
21:54
Speaker 10: there's many people who have been forced into social housing
21:56
Speaker 10: because they literally cannot get a rental property. They just
21:59
Speaker 10: can't get one. So they have to stay with their
22:01
Speaker 10: parents or their grandparents or do whatever they have to do.
22:04
Speaker 10: Or if they don't have that support available, they've got
22:06
Speaker 10: to go into a social house. So this is what
22:08
Speaker 10: happens when you have a massive surge in demand that
22:11
Speaker 10: we've had from mass migration coupled with a complete failure
22:14
Speaker 10: of supply.
22:15
Speaker 7: And on top of that, as.
22:16
Speaker 10: You rightly say, these tax changes mean that fewer people
22:18
Speaker 10: are investing, rents go up even more. So Look, unfortunately,
22:22
Speaker 10: more people are going to find themselves in this situation.
22:26
Speaker 2: And it just grows the state. It makes us ever
22:28
Speaker 2: more reliant on government, which is not what we want
22:31
Speaker 2: in a country like Australia. Thank you to you both.
22:33
Speaker 2: As I said, Kerri-Lee, great to have you back. All right,
22:36
Speaker 2: let's go now to the breach today. Let's bring in
22:38
Speaker 2: a professional to unpick it for us now, Chief Scientist
22:42
Speaker 2: at the University of New South Wales AI Institute, Professor
22:46
Speaker 2: Toby Walsh. Professor, I've been waiting for you all day
22:50
Speaker 2: because there's so much chatter around and half of it
22:54
Speaker 2: doesn't add up to the next person who speaks. What happened?
22:58
Speaker 2: What have we learnt today about this breach?
23:03
Speaker 12: Well, the government got another lucky break here. Fortunately, it
23:06
Speaker 12: turned out it wasn't particularly serious. We didn't lose too
23:10
Speaker 12: much sensitive information here. But it shows that these companies
23:13
Speaker 12: need much better oversight, independent oversight from the government that
23:16
Speaker 12: they're not getting.
23:19
Speaker 2: So the PM, when he spoke about it, basically said
23:22
Speaker 2: that this was a front-facing information portal, so there was
23:27
Speaker 2: nothing there other than basically statistics. But it was behind,
23:31
Speaker 2: if I could call it, a firewall or some sort
23:33
Speaker 2: of security mechanism. Obviously, it was breached. It wasn't just
23:37
Speaker 2: this website, though, this information system. There were multiple. The
23:42
Speaker 2: one I was most concerned about was Medicare. But the
23:44
Speaker 2: persistence of this open AI technology agent, if I can
23:50
Speaker 2: call it that, that just kept going at it and
23:52
Speaker 2: breaking down all the protections the government had. The fact
23:55
Speaker 2: that the government's own back end didn't trigger some sort
23:59
Speaker 2: of alarm, that they were only told about this by
24:03
Speaker 2: the company, that's concerning. Yeah, it is.
24:08
Speaker 12: It's very concerning that we had to be told that
24:10
Speaker 12: this had happened. The information they got was public-facing information.
24:15
Speaker 12: All they said was about to be put in the
24:17
Speaker 12: public domain. it wasn't too harmful. And the sorts of
24:20
Speaker 12: things that the bots were doing, that sophisticated sort of
24:24
Speaker 12: things that I've actually done when I've been trying to
24:26
Speaker 12: get information out of the government's website, trying to guess
24:28
Speaker 12: what the pile names might be called for data for
24:31
Speaker 12: another year. But you're right, the persistence and the volume
24:34
Speaker 12: that comes out. We may be talking about hundreds or
24:37
Speaker 12: even sometimes thousands of these agents that come at you
24:40
Speaker 12: over weeks and it will eventually get through. So this
24:43
Speaker 12: time the government got lucky, nothing serious happened. But what's
24:47
Speaker 12: going to happen next time?
24:50
Speaker 2: And what about the response from OpenAI? Because I listened
24:53
Speaker 2: to one interview where they're not even sure how this happened.
24:57
Speaker 2: I mean, they know it was one of their agents.
24:59
Speaker 2: They're not dodging that. But the agent is thinking, I guess,
25:02
Speaker 2: faster and deeper and more autonomously than how they perhaps
25:07
Speaker 2: programmed it.
25:09
Speaker 12: Yeah, so it was entirely autonomous. There wasn't significant oversight
25:12
Speaker 12: of this.
25:13
Speaker 9: It is worrying.
25:14
Speaker 12: At best, it's incompetence for this company, this trillion-dollar company.
25:18
Speaker 12: has just failed the basic cybersecurity.
25:21
Speaker 9: Or at worst, it's carelessness.
25:23
Speaker 12: And I think really what we're going to have to
25:25
Speaker 12: do is hold the offices of these companies responsible. If
25:28
Speaker 12: a human was doing this to the vacuum, they would
25:30
Speaker 12: be facing prosecution.
25:31
Speaker 9: I don't think we could just get them away.
25:33
Speaker 12: They all gleefully tell us, oh, we've had another AI
25:36
Speaker 12: break into someone's system.
25:39
Speaker 9: And to talk up the capabilities of their system.
25:41
Speaker 12: All of the companies, not just Open AI, have been
25:43
Speaker 12: gleefully telling us this rather than being ashamed that they've
25:47
Speaker 12: actually lost control of their systems.
25:51
Speaker 2: Well, I listened to ministers today. I listened to the
25:54
Speaker 2: Prime Minister. I don't get a sense they've got a
25:55
Speaker 2: real handle on on any of these issues, the complexity
26:00
Speaker 2: of these issues. I read a report the other day,
26:02
Speaker 2: there's only about 10 employees in the government cyber AI unit.
26:07
Speaker 2: You were there on an expert panel for about a year.
26:10
Speaker 2: It was disbanded. Surely now's the time to bring it back.
26:16
Speaker 12: Well, I think the government needs more expertise all around.
26:18
Speaker 12: I mean, I'm very happy to continue to lend my
26:21
Speaker 12: expertise back to the government to help them understand where
26:25
Speaker 12: this very rapidly evolving field is going and where the
26:28
Speaker 12: risk is starting to emerge. But equally, at the AI
26:31
Speaker 12: Safety Institute, it needs to be much larger. The government's
26:35
Speaker 12: putting up 30 million or something for it. And that's
26:37
Speaker 12: a tenth of what the UK government's putting at it.
26:40
Speaker 12: And we can see the threats are only getting more
26:42
Speaker 12: significant and more challenging by the day.
26:46
Speaker 2: What worries me, Toby, is we're having a debate about
26:48
Speaker 2: data centres and their power source and where they're located
26:51
Speaker 2: and whether communities want them near them or not. But
26:55
Speaker 2: that's just the engine, basically, for the architecture that we're
27:00
Speaker 2: not even sure of the scale and scope. We're all
27:04
Speaker 2: saying it'll be transformative, it'll be great for the economy.
27:07
Speaker 2: But I used a couple of examples tonight. You know,
27:09
Speaker 2: wait till AI develops some sort of weapon to bring
27:13
Speaker 2: down an aircraft that can pass through security. Wait till
27:17
Speaker 2: AI has a very contagious, deadly biological agent and it's
27:22
Speaker 2: in the hands of a terror group or a rogue
27:25
Speaker 2: nation state. That's where I'm concerned. But I feel we're
27:29
Speaker 2: sort of two parts removed from the debate and we're
27:32
Speaker 2: behind the eight ball.
27:36
Speaker 9: We are a bit behind. I think the idea that
27:37
Speaker 9: AI is going to kill us all is a bit fantastical.
27:40
Speaker 9: But the idea that it could kill a few people.
27:41
Speaker 12: As you gave a few examples there, we saw already
27:45
Speaker 12: earlier this week about how Chinese EV cars can easily
27:48
Speaker 12: be hacked and taken over and you can turn the
27:51
Speaker 12: lights off and you can turn the brakes on and
27:54
Speaker 12: you can even control the steering. Those things, we've seen
27:59
Speaker 12: how dependent we are on these systems. Air traffic control
28:01
Speaker 12: systems in the United Kingdom keep on crashing. Well, what
28:03
Speaker 12: if the AI starts attacking the air traffic control systems?
28:06
Speaker 9: What sort of work is it going to do? We're
28:08
Speaker 9: really not addressing these issues at all.
28:11
Speaker 2: And also, I've read concern about home batteries or the
28:14
Speaker 2: lithium batteries that people are putting on the side of
28:16
Speaker 2: their homes to store the energy from their solar systems. Again,
28:19
Speaker 2: they've got a connectivity and a brain, if I can
28:22
Speaker 2: call it that. So if you were sitting there now,
28:24
Speaker 2: if you were the Prime Minister's ear, what would you
28:27
Speaker 2: say needs to happen in the short to medium term
28:31
Speaker 2: urgently on the back of what we've learned today?
28:33
Speaker 12: Well, in the short term, it's very clear that we
28:36
Speaker 12: have to increase our cyber defences, the cyber security has
28:40
Speaker 12: become a very significant issue.
28:42
Speaker 9: These new AI.
28:43
Speaker 12: Tools have significant side of the capability and we can't
28:46
Speaker 12: sit around. We need more expertise in government, more oversight.
28:49
Speaker 12: We need to invest much more time and effort in that.
28:52
Speaker 12: In the longer term, I think we've really got to
28:53
Speaker 12: think about how we properly regulate this industry.
28:55
Speaker 9: No other trillion dollar industry doesn't.
28:58
Speaker 12: Get any independent oversight.
29:01
Speaker 9: They're still marking their own homework.
29:02
Speaker 12: And as they've just demonstrated yet again, they're not marking
29:06
Speaker 12: their homework very well at all.
29:07
Speaker 9: They had it in late.
29:09
Speaker 12: They didn't really own up to all the mistakes they'd
29:11
Speaker 12: made and to the seriousness. They sent it to an
29:14
Speaker 12: obscure government email address. They just can't be trusted to
29:17
Speaker 12: look after their own homework.
29:20
Speaker 2: And just quickly, Toby, my point at the top of
29:22
Speaker 2: the show, that's not to mean, though, you conflate... regulation
29:26
Speaker 2: of the AI space, the architecture of artificial intelligence and
29:32
Speaker 2: the digital duty of care legislation that the government's got
29:34
Speaker 2: on the table that goes to the content that's available
29:38
Speaker 2: to people online. They're not the same thing.
29:42
Speaker 9: They're not the same thing.
29:43
Speaker 12: I mean, they're sort of mixed in the sense that
29:45
Speaker 12: the AI is also deciding how you see the content,
29:48
Speaker 12: and the algorithm is deciding which particular content you see.
29:54
Speaker 12: So it's a confused mixture of things that they're trying
29:57
Speaker 12: to do there with the digital duty of care.
29:59
Speaker 9: It does involve AI.
30:00
Speaker 12: Of course, it involves just the pure design of it,
30:02
Speaker 12: and it does involve, as you say, the content that
30:03
Speaker 12: you get to see.
30:06
Speaker 2: I'll leave it there. I hope you get a call
30:07
Speaker 2: from the Prime Minister. I hope he's desperate enough to
30:10
Speaker 2: admit he got it wrong and put you on the paddle.
30:12
Speaker 2: Toby Walsh, thank you. Professor Walsh there from the University
30:14
Speaker 2: of New South Wales. After the break, Jacinta Allen, hot
30:17
Speaker 2: seat at the Corruption Royal Commission. Will she give evidence
30:21
Speaker 2: before the state election? And crime data out today in Victoria,
30:27
Speaker 2: record levels of retail shoplifting. We'll get into that in
30:30
Speaker 2: a moment. Welcome back. Well, how are we going to
30:37
Speaker 2: keep the economy running with farmers set to fork out
30:39
Speaker 2: up to $ 4 a litre for diesel? We'll get into
30:43
Speaker 2: that in a moment, but now to reports that former
30:45
Speaker 2: Premier Jacinta Allen will be grilled by the Royal Commission
30:48
Speaker 2: over how she was never made aware of a key
30:50
Speaker 2: document that raised the alarm on big build corruption allegations,
30:54
Speaker 2: despite being directed to read the briefing. Here to discuss
30:58
Speaker 2: this and plenty more, including those crime stats out today,
31:01
Speaker 2: Shadow Police Minister Brad Batten. Brad, thank you. Just before
31:05
Speaker 2: we get into the, first of all, the Royal Commission
31:07
Speaker 2: started yesterday, but it was all the sort of preparatories.
31:11
Speaker 2: Before we get into the fact of these two premiers
31:14
Speaker 2: and whether we will see them before the election, the
31:18
Speaker 2: public interest immunity waiver, Labor love this. It stops them
31:23
Speaker 2: having to give a full and frank account to the
31:26
Speaker 2: Royal Commission. They can decline to hand over paperwork. You
31:31
Speaker 2: guys want that waived. You want it gone. You want
31:33
Speaker 2: this to be a fed income Royal Commission and you're
31:36
Speaker 2: voting on this in the Parliament right now.
31:38
Speaker 13: Yeah, we know for a fact already we've seen Daniel
31:40
Speaker 13: Andrews go in hearings before and he loves the I
31:42
Speaker 13: don't recall.
31:43
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. I can't remember.
31:44
Speaker 13: You can't remember all those. Now it'll actually be I
31:46
Speaker 13: don't have to and that's the biggest problem. This is
31:49
Speaker 13: giving him the authority effectively and just into Alan to
31:53
Speaker 13: hide documents, to say to them, We don't think this
31:56
Speaker 13: actually needs to be released. We're not going to release it.
31:58
Speaker 13: And the Royal Commission can't compel them to. And I
32:01
Speaker 13: just think it's too important.
32:01
Speaker 2: That's because they've got a provision in an active parliament
32:04
Speaker 2: in Victoria that we don't have for a federal Royal Commission.
32:07
Speaker 2: That's the best as I can understand it.
32:08
Speaker 9: That's correct.
32:09
Speaker 13: And we've got it here in Victoria. And it's literally,
32:11
Speaker 13: as we're sitting here right now, they're debating this in
32:13
Speaker 13: the parliament and the government have worked with the Greens
32:15
Speaker 13: to stop our amendment, to remove it so that the
32:19
Speaker 13: documents would have to be released and should be put
32:21
Speaker 13: up to the Royal Commission because we believe they should.
32:24
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I think Australians would say it's got, Victorians
32:27
Speaker 2: would say it has to. If you are elected at
32:29
Speaker 2: the end of the year in November, you've already said
32:32
Speaker 2: you're going to enlarge this Royal Commission, more terms, more
32:36
Speaker 2: expert commissioners, and clearly you'd put this through the parliament again.
32:40
Speaker 13: Yeah, and James Newbury's come out today and he's spoken
32:42
Speaker 13: very clearly on exactly how we're going to go through
32:44
Speaker 13: that process. Obviously, once the Royal Commission has started, some
32:47
Speaker 13: things can be complicated. We understand that. So James is
32:50
Speaker 13: working through that right now. to ensure that whatever we do, hopefully,
32:54
Speaker 13: post-November 28th, we'll sit till the end of the year
32:57
Speaker 13: to get as much through as we can, including that
32:59
Speaker 13: to ensure that the public get a guarantee that documents
33:03
Speaker 13: can be released in the Royal Commission that could be
33:06
Speaker 13: held to account to make sure people get the full story.
33:08
Speaker 13: Because the last thing we want is in five years'
33:10
Speaker 13: time them going, someone got away with it because we
33:12
Speaker 13: hid some documents.
33:13
Speaker 2: So call me cynical, right? I originally thought we're not
33:16
Speaker 2: going to see Jacinta Allen or Dan Andrews this side
33:18
Speaker 2: of the election. If the Greens vote with Labor... and
33:22
Speaker 2: keep this protection racket going, I bet she will front
33:26
Speaker 2: because she'll know it's safer to front with this protection
33:30
Speaker 2: racket in place rather than risk having to front should
33:34
Speaker 2: you win in November. Yeah, they'd be petrified.
33:37
Speaker 13: Like the Premier, as you said before, the then Premier,
33:40
Speaker 13: should have seen documents when she was the Minister. And
33:43
Speaker 13: if she hasn't, these are documents that have been noted
33:46
Speaker 13: and signed and They've gone through. You can't say that
33:48
Speaker 13: that much has gone through a minister's office and they
33:50
Speaker 13: weren't aware because there's only two things then. Either one,
33:53
Speaker 13: you know about it and you're involved, or two, you're incompetent.
33:56
Speaker 13: And either way, it's cost Victorians billions of dollars and
34:00
Speaker 13: someone needs to be held to account. If it's a
34:02
Speaker 13: director of a company, it should be treated the same
34:04
Speaker 13: as a minister of the Crown if they are knowledgeable
34:07
Speaker 13: of this and they know about it.
34:09
Speaker 2: Okay. Let's go to then the IBAC changes that the
34:12
Speaker 2: government's put on the table.
34:13
Speaker 9: Some.
34:14
Speaker 2: look sensible. I don't think they go far enough. Again,
34:18
Speaker 2: where are you sitting on those?
34:19
Speaker 13: Yeah, so we're going to say to them we won't
34:21
Speaker 13: oppose the legislation going through. There was four amendments put
34:24
Speaker 13: forward by James. We wanted to make sure that we
34:27
Speaker 13: could get the IBAC changes through as fast as possible.
34:30
Speaker 13: So that's why they're sitting tonight. And I think if
34:32
Speaker 13: I'm correct, and I haven't checked my phone in the
34:34
Speaker 13: last two minutes, but I think they would have gone
34:35
Speaker 13: through in the last few minutes. But again, the Greens
34:38
Speaker 13: and Labor have worked to ensure that any of our
34:40
Speaker 13: changes were stopped. They then took out a few of
34:43
Speaker 13: the changes themselves to get the eye back to make
34:45
Speaker 13: it stronger.
34:45
Speaker 2: OK, now I'll say this to people at home. The
34:47
Speaker 2: reason we're talking today and there's so much legislative focus,
34:50
Speaker 2: it's the last sitting day before the election on November 28.
34:54
Speaker 2: Talk to me about these crime stats today. Just record
34:57
Speaker 2: high numbers of retail theft. Victorians know it. You can't
35:02
Speaker 2: go to a supermarket anymore without having to pass through
35:04
Speaker 2: these doors and show receipts. And I was at Coles
35:07
Speaker 2: and I know 3OW has reported on this. There are
35:10
Speaker 2: literally theft stickers on a scotch fillet piece of steak.
35:14
Speaker 2: It's got that bad.
35:15
Speaker 13: The theft in retail stores is huge. And we've seen
35:18
Speaker 13: the statistics. We don't even see all the statistics. Coles
35:20
Speaker 13: and Woolworths will tell you that there's so much that
35:23
Speaker 13: still goes unreported here in Victoria, whereas in other states
35:26
Speaker 13: it's online. So we're not seeing all of it at
35:29
Speaker 13: the moment. That's probably the scariest part. But it's also
35:31
Speaker 13: now it's staff at risk. Like if I speak to Coles, Woolworths, Bunnings,
35:35
Speaker 13: the big retailers, they're all talking about body-worn cameras for 16-year-olds.
35:40
Speaker 13: Because people aren't just grabbing it and stealing it. They're
35:42
Speaker 13: happy to actually assault a staff member or abuse a
35:44
Speaker 13: staff member on the way out while they're stealing it
35:46
Speaker 13: because they know there's no consequences for it.
35:49
Speaker 2: What about this rumbling today, and of course it's grand
35:54
Speaker 2: final on Saturday, that the AFL has long talked about
35:58
Speaker 2: for media rights purposes and to make more money, to
36:01
Speaker 2: do a night grand final, and that Jess is reported
36:05
Speaker 2: to have been Quick to say, well, I'm not so
36:08
Speaker 2: sure about that. I think Victorians like the tradition of
36:11
Speaker 2: an afternoon match. I listened to an interview from the
36:14
Speaker 2: boss of the AFL, Andrew Dillon, this morning on 3OW,
36:17
Speaker 2: and he basically intimated he's going to sit close to
36:20
Speaker 2: her at the footy and teach her different. Let's have
36:23
Speaker 2: a listen.
36:25
Speaker 14: Look, that's something that's only just come to my attention,
36:27
Speaker 14: but I'm looking forward to seeing Jess at the footy
36:30
Speaker 14: on Saturday and we'll have a good chat then.
36:33
Speaker 2: Okay, where do you stand, night game or day game?
36:35
Speaker 13: Look, I have to be honest, I love the day game.
36:37
Speaker 13: I do like the tradition. We're going through a discussion
36:39
Speaker 13: right at the moment. It's not a policy at the moment.
36:41
Speaker 13: It's obviously got out there, but it is something we
36:43
Speaker 13: have spoken about. And I hope Andrew has, you can
36:46
Speaker 13: put his point forward, but also we have to think
36:48
Speaker 13: about the people who make football. And that's not the AFL.
36:51
Speaker 13: That's actually the people out there, the supporters, the punters
36:54
Speaker 13: that go. And let's be honest, I'm a Geelong supporter,
36:57
Speaker 13: so I've been lucky over the last few years to
36:58
Speaker 13: have a few wins.
36:59
Speaker 2: Don't rub it in. I'm rich.
37:00
Speaker 13: And there's nothing, well, you beat us in 2020. And
37:03
Speaker 13: there's nothing better after a win to go out with
37:05
Speaker 13: your mates and have a celebration or come into Melbourne
37:08
Speaker 13: and see the players get presented. If you finish your
37:10
Speaker 13: game at 11 o'clock at night, that's all gone. That's
37:13
Speaker 13: a Sunday issue. And then, let's be honest, players want
37:15
Speaker 13: to go and celebrate. Sunday's a whole different game.
37:17
Speaker 2: It's also really important for all the businesses that hang
37:20
Speaker 2: off sport. And I think there's been a lot of
37:21
Speaker 2: criticism with this Friday public holiday in Victoria. That used
37:26
Speaker 2: to be a big day for restaurants and other businesses
37:29
Speaker 2: in town, and that's been lost to them. Yeah, it's
37:31
Speaker 2: a challenge.
37:31
Speaker 13: The grand final public holiday, as we've already said, we're
37:33
Speaker 13: not changing, but the reality is at the moment it
37:36
Speaker 13: has put some challenges out there for particular businesses in Victoria.
37:39
Speaker 11: All right.
37:39
Speaker 2: Last day of Parliament. This means you're hitting the campaign hustings,
37:41
Speaker 2: Brad Batten.
37:42
Speaker 5: Thank you.
37:42
Speaker 13: I'm out there ready to roll and loving it out
37:44
Speaker 13: in Berwick and out in the southeast. And I can
37:46
Speaker 13: tell you I'll be looking forward to coming back here
37:48
Speaker 13: November 29th because I reckon the southeast is ready for
37:50
Speaker 13: a change.
37:51
Speaker 2: And the mullet's going to stay for the campaign?
37:53
Speaker 13: Not to my wife's pleasure, but yes.
37:55
Speaker 2: I'm with the wife on this one. That mullet's got
37:57
Speaker 2: to go. All right, leave it there. Quick break. After
37:59
Speaker 2: the break, we'll get into diesel, $ 4 a litre. Goodness me.
38:09
Speaker 2: Welcome back. International panel coming up. But now to deepening
38:12
Speaker 2: concerns over the cost of fuel with diesel expected to
38:16
Speaker 2: go through the roof as our ag sector battles to
38:19
Speaker 2: survive financial hits. Of course, too, it'll impact transport, but
38:23
Speaker 2: they are more likely to be able to pass it
38:26
Speaker 2: on than our farmers. Joining me now, Head of Energy
38:28
Speaker 2: Research at MST Financial, Saul Kovonick. Saul, talk of $ 4
38:33
Speaker 2: a litre I filled up today. It was just on $ 2. 98,
38:37
Speaker 2: I think very close to $ 3. $ 4, though, how real
38:40
Speaker 2: is that?
38:42
Speaker 7: Well, just as six months ago the idea of $ 3
38:45
Speaker 7: a litre would have been unheard of, I'm afraid $ 4
38:48
Speaker 7: is very much a number that could be on the cards.
38:51
Speaker 7: given the developments that are going on both in the
38:54
Speaker 7: Middle East and now potentially in the US and the
38:56
Speaker 7: ramifications from that. Australia is actually the most vulnerable nation
39:01
Speaker 7: in the world when it comes to diesel imports. We're
39:03
Speaker 7: the largest diesel importer by a long way because of
39:07
Speaker 7: our large agricultural and mining sectors. Australia only accounts for
39:11
Speaker 7: about 1% of global fuel demands, but we account for 10%
39:15
Speaker 7: of the global seaboard diesel trade. And so that means
39:20
Speaker 7: when you start to see shortages in diesel around the world,
39:23
Speaker 7: we are one of the most susceptible at the end
39:25
Speaker 7: of that supply chain.
39:28
Speaker 2: Okay, so how do we compare to the other big
39:30
Speaker 2: ag nations like United States, Canada, parts of Europe? Do
39:35
Speaker 2: they make their own diesel onshore? Do they refine their
39:39
Speaker 2: own product? Or are they heavy importers like us?
39:44
Speaker 7: So those other nations you mentioned are largely self-sufficient in
39:49
Speaker 7: both actually their oil production and in refining or can
39:53
Speaker 7: get their refined product from their neighbours. Now, the risk
39:55
Speaker 7: we face here is twofold. First of all, the war
39:59
Speaker 7: in the Middle East is still in an escalatory trajectory
40:02
Speaker 7: and it's broadening to provide two choke points, not just
40:04
Speaker 7: in the Strait of Hormuz, but also through the Red Sea,
40:07
Speaker 7: which is the one way Saudi Arabia has been getting
40:08
Speaker 7: its fuel out of the Middle East by passing the strait.
40:11
Speaker 7: But the second thing now is the potential for the
40:14
Speaker 7: United States to restrict its diesel exports, precisely because it's
40:18
Speaker 7: facing political pressure from the farming Republicans within the US
40:23
Speaker 7: and their farmers who are pacing higher diesel prices right
40:26
Speaker 7: into the midterm elections. And if the US cuts off
40:29
Speaker 7: its diesel exports, which account for a third of the
40:31
Speaker 7: world's seaborne trade, you could then see Europe also look
40:35
Speaker 7: to protect their own first and cut off their diesel exports.
40:37
Speaker 7: Russia already has. China's done it before earlier this year
40:40
Speaker 7: and could do it again. And so if you don't
40:42
Speaker 7: have your sovereign supply chain you're left at the end.
40:45
Speaker 7: And that puts you in a precarious situation.
40:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, the talk was about a 90-day ban and that
40:51
Speaker 2: would take them across and through the midterms. And I
40:54
Speaker 2: hear your point about the Republicans and the farming states there.
40:57
Speaker 2: So how real do you think that is? And two,
41:01
Speaker 2: if there was to be a spike in fuel costs here,
41:05
Speaker 2: diesel particularly, diesel more than petrol, when are we likely
41:08
Speaker 2: to see it? This side of Christmas, after Christmas? And
41:12
Speaker 2: what about demands do you think from the government to
41:15
Speaker 2: cut the excise again?
41:18
Speaker 7: So at this point, it's looking more likely than not
41:21
Speaker 7: that the US will look to restrict diesel to at
41:23
Speaker 7: least a degree ahead of the early November midterms. That
41:27
Speaker 7: would start to flow through. If they announce that, that
41:29
Speaker 7: would flow through immediately on diesel prices, but would really
41:31
Speaker 7: start to crunch potentially from as early as late October.
41:37
Speaker 7: That has both a pricing implication, but it has much
41:41
Speaker 7: more an implication on what that would mean for our
41:44
Speaker 7: agricultural sector. And if you recall, the government has... It
41:48
Speaker 7: previously disbanded its fuel security taskforce, but that could have
41:51
Speaker 7: to be reinstated because the whole point of Australia potentially
41:53
Speaker 7: going to stage three and stage four of rationing is
41:56
Speaker 7: to protect our agricultural sector in addition to our other
41:59
Speaker 7: critical sectors. So that means diverting diesel away from many
42:03
Speaker 7: of us who need it in the cities to making
42:06
Speaker 7: sure at least our farmers can get it. Hopefully these
42:09
Speaker 7: things don't play out in that worst case scenario, but
42:12
Speaker 7: I'm actually more worried now than I've been at any
42:14
Speaker 7: point since the war began about the potential for us
42:16
Speaker 7: to go to rationing for diesel.
42:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. I heard warnings within the Canberra
42:22
Speaker 2: bureaucracy that they were preparing for rationing. So if that
42:27
Speaker 2: sort of discussion's happening, that's pretty real to me. Saul,
42:31
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I've got to leave it there. I do
42:32
Speaker 2: want to catch up with you, though, about fuel and
42:35
Speaker 2: energy policy broadly. There's coalitions put their policy out yesterday,
42:39
Speaker 2: but we'll do that next week. Certainly. Thanks for joining
42:41
Speaker 2: me tonight. All right, let's go. Quick break. International panel
42:45
Speaker 2: after the break. international panel. It's Thursday and they're here
42:53
Speaker 2: with me in the studio, News24 contributor Kosha Garda, Labor
42:56
Speaker 2: MP Michael Damby. Welcome to you both. Hey, I want
42:59
Speaker 2: to go to this award that Albo got, Global Citizen
43:02
Speaker 2: of the Year or whatever it is, from the Atlantic Council, Michael.
43:05
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I went digging around. Lo and behold, who
43:09
Speaker 2: is on the International Advisory Board for this mob but
43:14
Speaker 2: Kevin Rudd?
43:15
Speaker 14: I'm surprised most members of the Atlantic Council wouldn't know
43:18
Speaker 14: who Albo was but At least there was someone there
43:20
Speaker 14: who knew where he was and that's probably why he
43:22
Speaker 14: got it.
43:23
Speaker 2: He got it for, amongst many things, AUKUS. But Scott
43:27
Speaker 2: Morrison should have got the award for AUKUS and didn't.
43:32
Speaker 2: I said today that, you know, this digital hack that
43:36
Speaker 2: he found out about on the weekend was held over
43:38
Speaker 2: kosher just because they needed a distraction. This is terrible optics.
43:43
Speaker 2: For a prime minister struggling as he is at home,
43:45
Speaker 2: talk of interest rates next week rising, fuel prices out
43:49
Speaker 2: of control. This is a bad look.
43:51
Speaker 15: Very bad look. And he, in general, doesn't come across
43:54
Speaker 15: as somebody that can speak tech or explain what's going
43:57
Speaker 15: on and how is a government that increasingly is demanding
44:00
Speaker 15: more and more of our digital footprint to be loaded
44:03
Speaker 15: into the system. How is it equipped for cybersecurity or
44:05
Speaker 15: any of that stuff? So it's not helpful, but he
44:08
Speaker 15: came out and gave a statement and off we go.
44:10
Speaker 2: Xi Jinping arrived into the US and on the tarmac
44:14
Speaker 2: waiting was the president and the first lady. That's very unusual, right?
44:19
Speaker 2: For any world leader, any head of state to greet
44:21
Speaker 2: another head of state, it's usually lower order protocol that
44:26
Speaker 2: someone else is there. But I guess it signals that
44:29
Speaker 2: the president wants a good relationship with his Beijing counterpart.
44:34
Speaker 14: Yes, he regards himself and Putin as the sort of
44:36
Speaker 14: three equals of the world. A US president hasn't done
44:38
Speaker 14: this since 1962 when Kennedy went out to greet Harold Macmillan.
44:43
Speaker 14: But I think Xi wants a quiet, stable summit. He
44:48
Speaker 14: wants nothing to happen. He doesn't want any military fighting
44:53
Speaker 14: breaking out. Ructions over Taiwan. Certainly ructions over Taiwan. His
44:56
Speaker 14: red line is going to be to try and get
44:58
Speaker 14: Trump to sell out Taiwan. But I can't believe that
45:02
Speaker 14: John Lyons was saying on the ABC that Chinese haven't
45:05
Speaker 14: been providing satellite intelligence to or energy precursors to the Iranians.
45:09
Speaker 14: They just get away with blue murder and the ABC's
45:12
Speaker 14: there to megaphone them.
45:13
Speaker 2: If he had not gone out to the tarmac, he
45:16
Speaker 2: would have been criticised. He's been criticised by Democrats for
45:19
Speaker 2: going out to the tarmac. Where would Americans, the general public,
45:25
Speaker 2: be on this, given we've got midterms coming up? Would
45:27
Speaker 2: it even be on their political radar?
45:29
Speaker 1: Not really.
45:30
Speaker 15: I think they're just so focused on the domestic issues
45:32
Speaker 15: and feel that that's been inadequately served. That's where he's
45:35
Speaker 15: been slipping in the polls and in the support. But
45:38
Speaker 15: as it relates to China, the Trump doctrine has always
45:40
Speaker 15: been he wants to get along with everybody, even adversaries,
45:43
Speaker 15: even rivals.
45:45
Speaker 2: The... Jaw, jaw, not wall, wall.
45:47
Speaker 15: Yes. And the agenda is very contained, as you said,
45:50
Speaker 15: for this. There might be a little bit of a
45:51
Speaker 15: trade truce or an extension of that trade truce, but
45:53
Speaker 15: it's broadly symbolic pageantry to say we are the world order.
45:57
Speaker 15: And we, it was also deliberate that he did not,
45:59
Speaker 15: Xi Jinping did not go to the UN, which is
46:01
Speaker 15: happening in that same week, skipped it, went straight to Washington.
46:03
Speaker 15: So they're sort of telegraphing that we are the world order,
46:06
Speaker 15: not the UN, and we have to normalise relations.
46:08
Speaker 2: Okay. Talk to me about Ukraine. We saw Vladimir Zelensky,
46:13
Speaker 2: meeting a number of leaders, including obviously Prime Minister Albanese.
46:17
Speaker 2: When and how does this Ukraine-Russia war end?
46:21
Speaker 14: Well, the end is, in the short term, is quite obvious.
46:25
Speaker 14: This is what Zelensky is going for. And the US administration,
46:28
Speaker 14: at least Rubio seems signed up to, and that is
46:30
Speaker 14: a ceasefire in place. Now, the Ukrainians reckon that the
46:35
Speaker 14: Russians won't stop killing their civilians in the cities. So
46:38
Speaker 14: they've invented these new drones which shoot down Russian drones.
46:42
Speaker 14: They've also decided to hit all Russian infrastructure, including refineries,
46:48
Speaker 14: as far away as Siberia, hoping that the Russians will
46:51
Speaker 14: lose export income and give up. And finally, they've really
46:56
Speaker 14: pushed the Russians in the northern Donbass and reconquered 200
47:00
Speaker 14: square kilometres near Lyman. So the Ukrainians force it but
47:05
Speaker 14: have a reasonable demand ceasefire in place.
47:08
Speaker 2: And then President Trump invites him, Putin, to the G20
47:13
Speaker 2: in December.
47:14
Speaker 15: Yes, in Miami, obviously raises eyebrows, but it goes back
47:18
Speaker 15: to the previous point with Xi, where he does view that,
47:20
Speaker 15: that no matter who you are, adversary, rival, competitor, we
47:24
Speaker 15: want to normalise relations, certainly with a nuclear power.
47:26
Speaker 9: Even Mamdani is meeting.
47:27
Speaker 15: Yes, even Mamdani and a nuclear power, which is Russia.
47:30
Speaker 15: So it is about re-engaging on the stalled negotiation talks,
47:33
Speaker 15: but it also is about normalising relations. That is Trump's doctrine,
47:36
Speaker 15: and that's why he invited him to Alaska last year,
47:38
Speaker 15: and he's inviting him again here.
47:39
Speaker 2: Quick one, media ban, White House media ban.
47:42
Speaker 15: The judge ruled this was expected, that you can't do
47:45
Speaker 15: that because of the First Amendment, and I think Trump
47:47
Speaker 15: will just spin it as, well, they deserved it, needed
47:50
Speaker 15: to teach them a lesson, and that's part of, I think,
47:53
Speaker 15: his act and his forte.
47:54
Speaker 2: So they'll come back in, but he will be slow
47:59
Speaker 2: to give questions perhaps.
48:01
Speaker 15: And he will be insulting, which some would say they deserve.
48:04
Speaker 14: He thinks they'll be chastened.
48:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
48:07
Speaker 9: All right.
48:07
Speaker 2: We'll see if they are. Thank you very much.
48:10
Speaker 1: All right.
48:10
Speaker 2: Have a lovely weekend, everybody. Enjoy your break. Enjoy the
48:13
Speaker 2: footy of whatever type you like to watch. Up next,
48:17
Speaker 2: of course, James McPherson. I'll see you Monday.