Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 90. The Transformative Power of Romance

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90. The Transformative Power of Romance · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:05
  Welcome to the show.
• 0:05
  Don't Tell Writing Podcast with me, Suzy Vadori where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction.
• 0:13
  Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
• 0:20
  Join me as I share the step by step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away.
• 0:25
  As I host successful writers who share a behind the scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
• 0:38
  Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
• 0:42
  There are real and important skills that you need to learn on this show.
• 0:46
  I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
• 0:49
  I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing.
• 0:56
  Welcome to the podcast show to Tell podcast today.
• 1:00
  Emily Collin, I am so excited to be here in Denver with her at a book coaching conference.
• 1:05
  Welcome alley.
• 1:06
  Thank you.
• 1:07
  I'm so excited to be here and to talk about romance, which is one of my very favorite things in the world to talk about.
• 1:12
  Thanks, Brad.
• 1:13
  Oh my goodness.
• 1:14
  Me too.
• 1:15
  Me too.
• 1:15
  Okay, so for our listeners, we have a lot of newer writers.
• 1:18
  We have writers from all different genres.
• 1:20
  So can, before we even get started, can you define what you mean by capital R romance folks?
• 1:27
  Absolutely.
• 1:27
  So there are plenty of genres that incorporate romantic elements.
• 1:33
  Just because you have a romantic storyline in your book doesn't make it a romance.
• 1:37
  I think there are two really big litmus tests that you can do to determine if you are running a romance.
• 1:43
  The first one is, does it end again what we in the romance genre call an HEA, but that stands for Happily River After, or HFN, which is happily for nav.
• 1:52
  If your.
• 1:53
  And branch free, where the lovers don't get together.
• 1:57
  Something goes for and wrong.
• 1:58
  It can still be a beautiful, wonderful, amazing, incredible book and a romance.
• 2:02
  The other thing that you can do to tell if you're writing a romance is if you take out the romantic plot.
• 2:10
  If, for example, you could leave the characters in, but they're just friends.
• 2:13
  If you remove the romantic plot from the story, does the story still work?
• 2:18
  Because there are plenty of genres.
• 2:20
  Let's just take romantic, see as an example.
• 2:23
  There's a distinction between romantic and romantic fantasy, and so the distinction is that in romantic, the fantasy plot and the romance plot are equally important, and they are.
• 2:36
  Intertwined.
• 2:37
  Think about like I one of those old trees, I am growing all around it.
• 2:40
  Like you can't really tell the difference they're growing together.
• 2:43
  But in romantic fantasy, you have a situation where the fantasy is the main plot.
• 2:47
  And you may well have a love story, but it's not, oh God.
• 2:50
  The rest of the story, forgive me and you can pull it out.
• 2:54
  The storyline will still work.
• 2:56
  So those things do, do you have an HEA or HFN now you guys know that H treated before and will the storyline work if you pull out the robots?
• 3:05
  And if the answer to those questions is not then back writing a story with romantic elements to a Katrina.
• 3:12
  Right?
• 3:12
  Yeah.
• 3:13
  And that's so helpful.
• 3:14
  And you know, I work with a lot of writers who initially think, or they think that they'll just say, I'm writing.
• 3:20
  A fantasy romance, but really they're writing a fantasy with romantic element.
• 3:24
  Right.
• 3:25
  And not a cap.
• 3:26
  And that's why I say capital R romance versus just a romance plot line.
• 3:30
  Why is that important?
• 3:32
  Why should writers listening actually care what they call it?
• 3:35
  'cause it's actually important.
• 3:36
  It's really important and it's important for a couple of reasons.
• 3:39
  So one reason I'm going to get you is.
• 3:41
  Entirely practical.
• 3:43
  And then the other one that I'm going to give you is a little bit more squishy, but also correct.
• 3:47
  So the practical reason I'm going to give you is whether you're an indie author, maybe you let yourself publish in your books, or whether you're choosing to go the traditional way track.
• 3:56
  We say sometimes such as easier to say where you're getting an agent.
• 3:59
  Perhaps you're going with a big fight or smaller traditional press.
• 4:04
  There are certain genre expectations.
• 4:07
  And you don't need to know what your comfortable title are, your comps are, and this is because your agent or editor needs to know.
• 4:14
  Who would your book shelf buddies be?
• 4:17
  Who would his friends be?
• 4:18
  Where does this book fit?
• 4:20
  Market Now.
• 4:21
  We're not talking about quality.
• 4:22
  You want your book to be universal enough that it's recognizable next to the others, but have something different and not to make it stand a car.
• 4:29
  Right?
• 4:29
  Yeah.
• 4:29
  Your book is going to be your book.
• 4:30
  It's gonna be unique in your voice, but there are certain elements that readers like the publishing expects.
• 4:36
  Yes.
• 4:36
  And also that readers expect, and if you don't match that, they might pan your book, even if it's awesome because you called it something and they had an expectation and then they're stuck.
• 4:46
  Right?
• 4:46
  And so that, that's the squishy product I was gonna say.
• 4:49
  So then gives you an example from myself.
• 4:51
  Something I would never do again.
• 4:53
  Not, but I didn't realize this is what, I was a little baby author.
• 4:56
  So my very first book came out in 2012 and it was billed as a romance.
• 5:02
  Then I think now we would think of it as like.
• 5:05
  Book love fiction with very strong romantic element.
• 5:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:08
  Yeah.
• 5:08
  But I wasn't thinking of it, but set the book came out as a romance.
• 5:13
  I was thinking of it as what I just described, but my readers were prime to expect a romance in book of fiction.
• 5:20
  You followed the emotional art of the.
• 5:24
  The people whose stories you are following, right?
• 5:25
  You're following the emotional arc rather than necessarily does this call together.
• 5:30
  So in my second book, that's what I did.
• 5:32
  I followed the emotional arc of the female main character and spoiler alert, that came out a long time ago.
• 5:37
  It made more sense for her to wind up with, not necessarily who we thought in the beginning, man.
• 5:43
  The hate for them.
• 5:45
  Yes.
• 5:45
  I didn't realize, right?
• 5:47
  I thought, okay, well this is book club fiction, but my readers were prime for one.
• 5:51
  It was not a series to expect a romance.
• 5:54
  So they were so disappointed because they thought, well, of course this is where this is going.
• 5:58
  So that's the squishy pink part that I'm talking about is like more than anything else.
• 6:03
  You know, you pick up a thriller, you're expecting it to be fast paced with short sentences.
• 6:08
  You pick up sci-fi.
• 6:09
  Maybe it's in space for making know aliens.
• 6:11
  It's the same with romance readers.
• 6:13
  And actually romance readers are among the most discriminating and they tend to read in series.
• 6:18
  I consume a lot of books very quickly.
• 6:20
  And so because of that, they're exquisitely attuned to the genre.
• 6:24
  And so if you fail to meet those expectations, then I mean also the genres are romance too.
• 6:28
  Like, you know, um, whether it's romantic suspense or it's cowboy romance, or it's sci-fi romance, or it's romantic, they're gonna be really let down.
• 6:36
  And the one thing you never, ever, ever wanna do is break the contract between reader and writer.
• 6:41
  And that is where everything starts to go really arise.
• 6:44
  So that is why you really want to know your genre because.
• 6:48
  More than anything else.
• 6:49
  We're doing this because we're writing stories that we want readers to love, and if we set ourselves up in a story structure to let them down, then that is the very opposite of we're trying to do as writers, and that's why it's so important to be clear.
• 7:03
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:04
  I think that, you know, you talked about sub genre.
• 7:07
  Knowing whether or not, you know, if you promise a romance, it better, it better be a romance.
• 7:11
  We're gonna talk about that in a few minutes, but also I think level of spice and, and readers like what they, like.
• 7:17
  We just talked about the fact that romance readers are some of the.
• 7:21
  Most avid readers out there, they tend to read quickly.
• 7:23
  They tend to read a lot in series, as you said.
• 7:26
  So they are a market that is right for your book, but you've gotta find the right ones.
• 7:30
  'cause you don't wanna get a one star review because you didn't meet expectations.
• 7:34
  Even if your book might be excellent women's fiction or something different.
• 7:39
  But if you bill it as a, and you know, a romance reader picks it up, as Emily said, they're very discerning and they will rock you.
• 7:48
  Right.
• 7:49
  They will rock you.
• 7:49
  Okay, so.
• 7:50
  Yeah, so I talked about spice level a little bit as well.
• 7:54
  Can you just like run that down and then I wanna talk about this misconception that the podcast is talking about, but in terms of spice level as well, there's a contract with your reader and what they're expecting and there's everywhere from Sweet Romance to, we're very explicit and anywhere in between.
• 8:09
  And what does that look like in terms of.
• 8:12
  You know, I think sometimes people get so anxious about writing the sexy scenes in their novels because they just imagine their mother looking over their shoulder, right?
• 8:21
  Or even worse, they all looking over their shoulder or their kids.
• 8:24
  And so one thing that I always try to say to people is that the intimate scenes that you're writing in your novels should be an extension of the character development.
• 8:33
  They should always move the character development forward, and they should always move the plot forward.
• 8:39
  In that sense, they're just like every other scene.
• 8:42
  But because intimacy is so, well, obviously intimate, it tells us so much, you're gonna learn a lot more about how two people come together that way than you might necessarily know how to take the eggs.
• 8:53
  Right?
• 8:54
  So I think that because of this, you have to really think about what is the quote unquote spice level.
• 9:01
  That is appropriate for more stories.
• 9:03
  Sometimes people think, oh no, I need to put full door like erotica in my foot where it can't be bought as ripping.
• 9:10
  Yeah.
• 9:10
  And they're not comfortable with that, but that's what they think they need to do to sell.
• 9:14
  Or sometimes people think, I'm really not comfortable with that.
• 9:17
  I know that about myself, so I'm going to write, this is what we call closed door, where we don't actually get to go into the bedroom with the CO all.
• 9:24
  Then they think, well, no one's gonna want to read that.
• 9:26
  And so I think it's really important to say that there is a market.
• 9:29
  For every quote unquote spice level.
• 9:32
  In romance, there's a market for sweet romance.
• 9:36
  There's a market for closed door and theta black.
• 9:39
  There's a market for s sensual romance where you get to see them within the bedroom over may, maybe not.
• 9:45
  Maybe explicit body parts all the way up to erotica, right?
• 9:49
  And I think that it's really, really important.
• 9:51
  Number one, if you're going to write a romance to get clear with yourself about what your characters are demanding.
• 9:58
  You know, you might have characters who have been traumatized and they are going to require a very different sort of scene than characters who are immersed in body positivity, right?
• 10:07
  You might have characters that is both of their first times, or you might have a character for, you know, she has been a playboy all this time, but this is the first person that matters, and so.
• 10:18
  The emotional development, the sex needs to change.
• 10:22
  Of course is the story in terms of how the characters are with each other and the emotion they express and what happens afterward.
• 10:29
  But the level of quote unquote explicitness or spice, it's highly personal and it should be what is right for you and for the story.
• 10:38
  Absolutely.
• 10:38
  And then, and then that promise.
• 10:41
  And how you advertise that or how you find your readership should match.
• 10:45
  Yeah, and, and you know, it's the same with comp titles for I gonna use Lucy Score 'cause a lot of people have read Lucy's score, so she does write really funny.
• 10:53
  Some of her earlier books, like the Demon series, not talking about things We never got over her, but some of her earlier ones, they're two adorable with, you know, small town settings and know goats that take bites at people or whatever.
• 11:05
  But they're also pretty darn steamy.
• 11:07
  So if you are writing cozy, small town, but your steam level is coast, closed door, those score is probably not going to be a good combo.
• 11:18
  So that's the other thing that I encourage you to think about is when you're thinking about your comparable titles, which is important as Indi as well, you add off the author and you're writing romance.
• 11:28
  Think about the spice level when you are identifying those comparable titles.
• 11:32
  Because if you study a fellow reader, this is the Pelosi score in the Spice department.
• 11:39
  Then you deliver a closed door, the reader's going to feel cheetah.
• 11:42
  And again, that contract is broken.
• 11:44
  So it's just a layer to think about.
• 11:45
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:46
  And I think I'm gonna adopt this new euphemism.
• 11:48
  How do you like your eggs?
• 11:50
  Well, I'm thinking about as you're explaining all these things, I'm like, oh, they like their eggs with hot sauce and they like their anyways.
• 11:55
  They like over, yeah, exact over easy.
• 11:58
  I like it.
• 11:59
  Okay, so now that we've sort of set the stage and we know what we're talking about, we brought the listeners up to speed.
• 12:07
  The whole concept and love that you pitched here that we were gonna talk about is there's this misconception out there that romance is all too frequently dismissed as fluff, or that there's some shame involved in that genre and that it's not the same as literary or something else.
• 12:27
  And, and that's what we wanna talk about here because I think if you're listening to this podcast.
• 12:32
  You're in all likelihood, really curious about it.
• 12:34
  Or maybe you wanna write romance and you're like, but is that, is it quote, and, and I'm not saying this with judgment, but people say, is it real writing?
• 12:42
  You know, where does this come from and what, what made you think of like, why are we talking about that?
• 12:47
  Like what's that?
• 12:48
  Well, romance writer, I had a situation in college.
• 12:52
  Where I had a, the one and only writing seminar I ever took and did not stop me from becoming a writer.
• 12:59
  So you don't need an MFA or BA become a writer.
• 13:02
  I blew it all my heart.
• 13:03
  But I had, I stumbled into a literary fiction seminar and when we were asked to go around and say our five favorite ruggers, I have to say, and right, but she thought a rumor is, I'm not on this, but there's for many like commercial.
• 13:15
  Yeah, very commercial, very genre focused.
• 13:18
  And the room felt dead silent.
• 13:20
  He could have heard a pin drop everyone around the table but me was smart enough to sling slowly under their seats.
• 13:27
  I'm just like, Mr. Ball is the professor hearing that.
• 13:33
  And so the whole, he said, professor.
• 13:35
  I see.
• 13:37
  And for the fall, rest of the semester, whenever anyone wrote anything that was changed, overly commercial.
• 13:43
  Overly romantic or overly paranormal.
• 13:46
  One you think ized and he would stare at.
• 13:49
  And it was incredibly belittling and I came away with this realization that genre of fiction in general was thought out of by many to be lesser, as if the more something sold and the more commercial appeal, the less viability and legitimacy or value, yeah, value You are in the eyes of sick.
• 14:12
  And that's really trouble being the point where I didn't write another were for 10 years.
• 14:17
  Oh my goodness.
• 14:17
  I'm so, keep going.
• 14:19
  But I'm so sorry that that happened to you.
• 14:21
  And we're gonna, we're gonna dismiss all of these myths today.
• 14:24
  Hopefully.
• 14:25
  I'm glad that, I'm glad that you've done the work and are sharing your experience with us because that is a misconception out there because in reality, ROEs is one of the highest grossing genres and he the highest grossing genre.
• 14:37
  Right.
• 14:37
  So, you know, the reason I wanted to talk about this today is.
• 14:40
  It's a little redemption story here.
• 14:42
  Okay, so in that same department at this little ancy University was a tenured English professor and she was also a romance, and she was tired of her romance novels being dismissed as love.
• 14:54
  And when people saw romance novels, but they didn't know that she had this honor es professor being made fun of her, they mocked her.
• 15:00
  They didn't know it was the same person.
• 15:01
  Then a professor in the department, ultimate respect.
• 15:04
  She's like, it's all me.
• 15:06
  I am the same person.
• 15:08
  I am writing my romance, intellect with humor, putting my, you know, same intellect into this as I do into my work.
• 15:15
  Yet this identity is so rarely dismissed, having nothing to do, the quality of the work, which is what it is.
• 15:22
  And so she decided to start her own small press.
• 15:24
  To give other romance novelists that opportunity and to bring publisher own titles.
• 15:29
  Now, this is many years ago, the press is no longer active, but was my first exposure to this true concept of how people treat romance novel as lessor heels.
• 15:38
  This other professor, the same department having as act office perspective.
• 15:43
  And it made me as a book coach and writing instructor and editor, absolutely determined.
• 15:49
  Never to dismiss someone because of the genre that they write.
• 15:53
  And it also made me really curious about why people feel the need to do this.
• 15:57
  So romances in particular, because I'm a romance novelist and I write.
• 16:00
  Paranormal remains.
• 16:01
  Remains a ci, contemporary rape.
• 16:03
  And so I think that one reason that people dismiss this is the idea of what we already know, how the book is going to end.
• 16:10
  So at the beginning of this conversation, you talked about the HEA, the HFN, we have a Raptor.
• 16:15
  Yes.
• 16:16
  Spoiler alert.
• 16:17
  You picking up a romance, it will have one of those two venues.
• 16:20
  Right.
• 16:20
  And so there's this concept of like, well, this can be real, right?
• 16:24
  Because real, right?
• 16:25
  You don't know where the PLAs gonna take you.
• 16:27
  So this.
• 16:28
  Is what anyone could write a romance.
• 16:30
  If these beats are, then you die.
• 16:31
  Right?
• 16:32
  And I would put this, the hot take out there that I actually believe it's actually much harder to write an excellent and engaging romance.
• 16:42
  I completely agree, but keep going.
• 16:45
  Yes.
• 16:45
  Well, because of everything that we just said about the structure, romance more than any other genre I have read is about, or written is about character gr you need to make these characters.
• 16:57
  He immediately relatable.
• 16:59
  He immediately identifiable, immediately saw him gonna empathize with eating up pure medicine them.
• 17:04
  From the start, you need to make their character journey so compelling and their character so compelling.
• 17:11
  And the obstacles and stakes that get in their way to feel so authentic, so genuine, so real that you're gonna buy into it.
• 17:18
  And that even though nowhere this is going, you find yourself at this all loss limit going, I'm impossibly.
• 17:24
  See how these two are going to get together and more over genuinely really care because let's just say for the purposes of this conversation that it is.
• 17:33
  I call them H one and H two.
• 17:35
  They can be any gen gender.
• 17:36
  Of course, you can have poly romances, but for the purposes of this H one and H two, even if you don't have a dual POV romance, and that is very common to have, is really about the fact that H one, nothing is missing in their lives.
• 17:49
  When the book begins H two, something is missing in their lives when the book begins, which is the case in many, many genres.
• 17:57
  In romance, the idea is said, cheesy life, you complete me.
• 18:02
  I know where you going with that.
• 18:03
  But the idea is that only these three people can complete each other and they have all of this work to do, and is through their relationship with each other that their worms come to light and that they heal to, to create two characters that have to bounce off each other in that way where you're introducing obstacles and safe that feels so profoundly authentic to then deliver.
• 18:26
  This believable, HEA or HFN.
• 18:29
  It is really, really hard.
• 18:30
  It is to put your own stamp on it, you know, we, and to make your book unique, given that you are following the, you know, formula for lack of a better description.
• 18:41
  You're following and we know where it ends and we can predict these things.
• 18:44
  And yet to make that unique is actually up to you, the writer.
• 18:49
  And it's hard.
• 18:50
  It is.
• 18:51
  And you know, I think that another reason why this gets dismissed.
• 18:54
  Is that, whether you're talking about romances, that centering the female character.
• 18:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:00
  Or sometimes you talk about male, male romances and that's another marginalized identity there is in our existing culture, in audacity of centering, let's just take female center romances to the first of this conversation because we could go on or not, but all the other identities, there is a tremendous audacity of saying, I'm stuttering this woman.
• 19:20
  She deserves to get what she wants.
• 19:22
  She deserves to ask for what she wants.
• 19:25
  She deserves emotional hearing.
• 19:27
  She deserves the romantic interest in her life.
• 19:30
  Go girl in her, fuck it up.
• 19:32
  Especially that romantic interest happens to be a man, which first does not have to be the case.
• 19:37
  But this idea, uh, body positivity, healing, that you deserve to be loved, that you deserve to ask and res what you want.
• 19:47
  That you deserve more than anything else.
• 19:49
  To have that happy ending and not to settle, I think makes romance.
• 19:54
  I have a coaching client who's coined the term trademark.
• 19:57
  The term romance is rebellious and I thoroughly agree with her in that way is a rebellious thing to say that women or people with marginalized identities to serve that it is a hundred percent or should be centered.
• 20:10
  And in studying Ryan, if you look at Dark romance particular.
• 20:15
  There's a lot of theme that might be, I won't say obvious, obviously could be triggering for people, but there are a lot of themes that you would think, okay, perhaps people who have gone through those things might not wish to read about this 'cause it's triggering.
• 20:29
  But I spent a lot of time talking to readers of darker might who might have experienced some of those things, and they say, no, actually, an act of reclamation, an act of empowerment because when X, Y, Z happened to me, I didn't get that.
• 20:42
  But here on these pages, I can live it again.
• 20:45
  Claim my power and it turns out the way that I want it to in the end.
• 20:49
  I think also, you know, in our brains you have something called mirror neurons, where we are literally, our neurons are not only mirroring experiences back to us for other people or the world Tradition studies down that when people read romance in particular, that oxytocin activates in your brain, so you're actually feeling good, feeling better, and that when you're reading scenes that are reflecting kindness.
• 21:13
  Compassionate people being treated well, happy editings, community, friendship, that those mirror neurons are also triggering.
• 21:21
  And so the effect said it is literally changing your neurochemistry in that moment for the better of romance cells are decreasing trauma therapy now.
• 21:31
  So the, the concept that this is weird fluff, as you can tell, is something that really gets me going because.
• 21:39
  I truly believe that these novels, they're also a tool for community.
• 21:43
  Yeah.
• 21:44
  There's so many Discords and other places, Facebook groups seen on Instagram chats where women and others have come together to support each other and talk about the stories, and so to me it is such a force for good and positive change in the world that goes beyond just.
• 22:05
  Yeah, I mean, you're actually talking my language here.
• 22:08
  We talk a lot about brain chemistry and reader's brains and how they work, and so thank you for bringing all of that to us.
• 22:16
  There's a huge need for positivity in the world, and like you said, it's not just reading a book, but there's a reason that these readers read a lot of it, but it has grown.
• 22:28
  Exponentially in the past decade, and there's a lot of reasons for that.
• 22:33
  I don't know whether you think it's, you know, we now have eBooks.
• 22:36
  I started reading a lot more romance when I didn't have to carry a physical book around and people would either know what I was while I was watching my children swimming lessons or, you know, there's a, there's a sense, an element of privacy, but there's also.
• 22:51
  This ability to publish more content and to have more information out in the world.
• 22:57
  Is there anything, you know, any other reason why this genre has grown so quickly?
• 23:02
  Yeah, for a couple things.
• 23:03
  I think that.
• 23:04
  During the pandemic in particular, that's what we saw Henry to, to the floor Ali Hazel Lit at that same time in general.
• 23:11
  But I think that people wanted something positive, a way to get outta there.
• 23:16
  Oh, and Hallmark, just like movies, the Hallmark just let their Hallmark movies be running 24 7.
• 23:22
  And I was watching them with my children who can tell you when the all his lost moment comes and, oh, he is not gonna be the haughty.
• 23:28
  I can tell you like they, they're pretty well conditioned to the formula.
• 23:32
  I mean, that's really talent though, right?
• 23:34
  It's like a spot.
• 23:35
  When we are at our worst, when we are struggling the most, we want someone to, it's not just, oh, everything's gonna be all right, ha ha ha, the head.
• 23:45
  It's, we're gonna see these people struggle.
• 23:47
  We're gonna see them go to their darkest places inside themselves.
• 23:51
  Then we are in this safe envelope where we know that it's gonna work out at the end.
• 23:55
  So if there's no conflict, people think, well, there's no conflict.
• 23:58
  Romance is so filled with conflict, internal conflict, characters that work themselves.
• 24:03
  External conflict.
• 24:05
  No, I, I can't let you in in this way because it's triggering whatever my deepest one is.
• 24:10
  Right?
• 24:10
  And so to like curiously experience that and in the end make everything work out okay.
• 24:15
  I think in our darkest times that that is something that we need.
• 24:18
  And also I think.
• 24:19
  With the rise in indie publishing becoming more and more accessible and the fact that romance readers do read in series and you know, romantics are longer, but romance, the tempered romance doesn't have to be that long.
• 24:32
  And so I think the doors that opened for a lot of people who are at readers for so long to want to tell their stories and to be able to do it outside of the real of traditional publishing and to be able to speak to and connect with directly with readers.
• 24:44
  And I think that's another reason why we've seen.
• 24:47
  A bit, and honestly, I think that's the strong syndication that there's demand for it, because that's not just saying, we are presenting this thing and say that you will like it.
• 24:56
  Some track romance books are up, of course.
• 25:00
  But it's readers speaking out directly.
• 25:02
  I media authors, any romance authors are only able to experience such wonderful success because readers are saying, please give us more.
• 25:10
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:11
  And I think, you know, I wanted to circle back just on that thought about yes, it is becoming more accessible and more people can be writing, and you're probably listening to this podcast, be interested in writing romance.
• 25:23
  And so I wanna circle back to the fact that yes, there are rules, there are formulas, but it actually makes it harder.
• 25:31
  I like to say that, uh, I mean, I truly believe anybody can learn to write.
• 25:35
  You don't have to have an MFA, I don't have an MFA and you don't have to have that education.
• 25:41
  But you do need to know that there are real and true skills to learn to affect your reader's brains to to do this well.
• 25:50
  What are some of the techniques that you think are important or even one that, that we could share with readers today that set romance or could create that important connection that we might not know if we're simply reading romance and then we sit down to write it?
• 26:08
  What you know?
• 26:09
  What's one thing that you could share or more than one thing?
• 26:12
  I would say it's character.
• 26:13
  Yeah.
• 26:14
  For all the reasons that I've said before.
• 26:15
  So let's just say that you have H one and H two that you've got too large.
• 26:20
  When I'm writing moments, one of the very first things that I do is to really think, okay, well what does this character want more than anything in the world?
• 26:29
  Why do they want this thing?
• 26:31
  What happens if they don't get this thing?
• 26:33
  That's your stakes, right?
• 26:35
  And then, alright, what is their sexual warmth?
• 26:39
  What happened to them ages ago?
• 26:41
  And now this thing, it's a flaw that's getting in their way everywhere they go at work, but they won't acknowledge.
• 26:49
  They think everything's fine.
• 26:51
  You the reader are gonna see it.
• 26:52
  Right?
• 26:52
  And then what's their poor misbelief?
• 26:55
  What do they believe as a result of this trauma and this plot that they will duck in that hill man?
• 27:02
  They'll be like, this is the way the world is.
• 27:04
  For example.
• 27:06
  You can't trust anybody because everybody you love will always to gaming.
• 27:11
  Right?
• 27:12
  Then of course, what's the lesson they need to learn at the end?
• 27:14
  It should be the opposite of the core misbelief.
• 27:16
  So this works really well in romance.
• 27:18
  Your two main characters goal are conflict and when their core misbeliefs are conflict.
• 27:23
  So if you have one character who's like, okay, I believe that everybody I love will always be me, and you have another main character who's like, it's always best to leave the situation first because when you get attached, you get hurt.
• 27:36
  You put those two together, you are going to invariably wide up in a situation or one of them is going to leave the other one.
• 27:43
  And so one, to learn, you gotta stay to get things you really want.
• 27:48
  The other needs to learn.
• 27:49
  You gotta open your heart and trust itself.
• 27:50
  You will stay to actually be able to function in this world and those flaws.
• 27:55
  They can't just show up in your romantic relationship, they've gotta show up everywhere.
• 27:59
  So if it's everyone you love is gonna listen to, then you can't trust anybody.
• 28:02
  You're gonna see trust issues at work.
• 28:03
  This might be a character messaging, everything themselves, the big event, the big wedding they're putting on.
• 28:08
  Nope, they gotta manage the flowers and the big, and of course it's gonna all fall apart.
• 28:12
  And so in the end, these characters will heal each other.
• 28:15
  And so I think that's the most important thing with writing romance, is you're really thinking about who are these love interests?
• 28:22
  What are all things that I just talked it about?
• 28:24
  How do you create the greatest conflict between that?
• 28:27
  Because if their goals wants, needs, flaws, core beliefs are not in conflict, then it doesn't like, we'll just think you've got mail, for example.
• 28:36
  It's like a really black and white book, like Ryan's character and maybe she's opening up or she's maintaining her mom's little bookstore and it's so important to her and that just because I run a bookstore, but because this is her mother's legacy and she's implying people and she can't.
• 28:52
  Here comes Alba Hanks, his character box.
• 28:54
  Prince moves into the neighborhood, huge bookstore like a Barnes and Noble, basically right away we see the conflict.
• 29:01
  He's probably gonna put her out of business.
• 29:04
  Yeah.
• 29:05
  And so this is the sort of thing where, first there's many out of elements to it that immediately these characters' goals are a conflict with each other.
• 29:15
  And sir, the other thing, you know, the kind of goes along with that, with this character work is.
• 29:20
  You're thinking about, they still wanna know about these characters.
• 29:23
  What subplot can I put in here?
• 29:26
  So when you've got middle, we've got the book store sub, for example.
• 29:30
  Yeah, the overarching romance plot.
• 29:33
  And that way it's not just about the romance, but whatever that subplot is, it should intimately or choosing soccer that's gonna showcase those laws and wounds, the corus beliefs to their best capacity.
• 29:47
  That way, the external and internal earth point.
• 29:52
  Oh my gosh, I, I could talk to you about this all day and we're gonna have to put you back on the podcast.
• 29:57
  Like, in my mind is inspiring.
• 30:00
  If you're enjoying this conversation, put in the comments exactly what else we want to learn from.
• 30:07
  Okay.
• 30:07
  We reached the quick fire portion of this episode, and so here goes my questions.
• 30:14
  Your first book that you ever wrote, how long did it take you From nine months.
• 30:19
  Nine months already.
• 30:20
  Three months of ion.
• 30:22
  A year.
• 30:23
  A year.
• 30:23
  Amazing.
• 30:24
  Okay.
• 30:25
  What was your first big break?
• 30:27
  That first book was a New York Times bestseller and a target rich authors pick.
• 30:32
  So, but how did it ha?
• 30:33
  Like what do you think there when.
• 30:35
  That pushed it over the top, just it was a great book.
• 30:38
  Or what was the break that you got that that helped you achieve that?
• 30:42
  Okay, so I explained about my Mean professor, right?
• 30:45
  You totally put up, I worked at a creative piece development program where I'm surrounded by artists all the time and under SUSE that we were challenging to drum it out, paint it out, sing it out.
• 30:56
  But I was an arts administrator there.
• 30:58
  I wrote grants at an events, we did fundraising, all this stuff, and we're sitting in a meeting more day.
• 31:04
  If you've ever tried to organize teaching artists, I get them to fill out their time sheets, especially when they've had too much.
• 31:10
  It's like one and 70 kids, like, you just can't, it's a mess with us.
• 31:14
  So I was like I said, I'm try at some point, go shut up and then I can, you know, so sitting next to a guitar teacher, you turn to me, she said, God, I'm gonna, so sorry.
• 31:21
  And I said, what?
• 31:23
  Worried for, you're so organized, you know, you're this arts administrator.
• 31:26
  Your best piece is frustrating for you having to deal with as artists.
• 31:29
  You could persuade, stab me, the US artists making you othered, right?
• 31:34
  Yeah.
• 31:34
  And it wasn't her attention saying she would no right at all.
• 31:37
  But I was saying, okay, why don't you just stab me?
• 31:39
  Um, because I realized nobody, I mean, I was writing marketing copy and I will say all the years I spent writing newsletters, marketing copy grants, all of that stuff proved to be so key when I came to write wearing letters.
• 31:53
  All these things, all the spin that you put on and likely promoting your books as well already.
• 31:58
  Yes.
• 31:58
  It was incredibly know you to try a completely unrelated career.
• 32:02
  I carried all of that forward.
• 32:04
  But my point is I sat there and as they continued to drunken the battle amongst themselves, I was like, Stu, like can you make an Democrat ballot?
• 32:11
  And I was like, I'm in all around me are all of these kids that have been through such trauma?
• 32:18
  And I'm like, be creative.
• 32:19
  Express yourself, but I won't even write my own book.
• 32:23
  This mean, man, what?
• 32:24
  So I was like, all right, I'm gonna build up art, freelance editing career, and I'm going to give myself a year not I've done that.
• 32:31
  And if at the end of the year I have amazing, I can do it.
• 32:35
  And if not, I believe in this career.
• 32:36
  I believe in this organization and I will go back now here.
• 32:40
  So I did all those things that I left and I sat down a great good book and I halfway into the book, I was like, I have no idea.
• 32:48
  I am totally stuck.
• 32:49
  And at that point I was sitting in my office type sta Sarah, I'm staring at one screen and the mail came.
• 32:55
  I was like, I was like Blue Blues clues.
• 32:57
  What?
• 32:58
  I jumped up and I was like, St. God in Distraction.
• 33:01
  It was a paper catalog from UCLA Creative Writers Extension, which is a huge online writing for.
• 33:07
  And I was flipping through it.
• 33:08
  I love that it's an online writing program and a paper catalog arrive in the mail, but yes, I know, I know.
• 33:14
  We're now checking 2000 here.
• 33:15
  Yes.
• 33:16
  My first book came about 22, so I'm looking through it 'cause Alterna is started on screen.
• 33:22
  There was a collapse for people who were halfway through their mouth, stuck love of it, and it was $610.
• 33:28
  I was like, oh, it's not me because I ain got no money right now because I put everything into doing this.
• 33:33
  So sad.
• 33:34
  Re put down my paper catalog.
• 33:35
  Sad.
• 33:36
  We went back upstairs screen next day, blues flus.
• 33:39
  Now call I distraction, went envelope from mortgage company, what fresh mail is this?
• 33:45
  So I opened it up and it was a return on escrow of course.
• 33:50
  I was like, oh my gosh, I just got chill.
• 33:53
  Scott was like, well, this is the sign.
• 33:55
  So I went ahead in class.
• 33:57
  The class was taught by a, a wonderful woman named, took pictures of you and I applied the class, right?
• 34:05
  We're back.
• 34:05
  And then she's like, I'm so sorry.
• 34:07
  So love your sand to work with you.
• 34:09
  And I was like, I don't think I can afford that.
• 34:12
  'cause I see I only have $610.
• 34:14
  And the next day she wrote back to me, she said, one sponsor.
• 34:17
  And so I took the class.
• 34:20
  At the end of the class, she was like, I'd like to mentor you privately.
• 34:23
  By that point, it took money, came to mentor me and then the book was finally done, revised all the things, and she said, now we need to put together a list of ages.
• 34:32
  I said, but I don't know any that wasn't coming from a book community.
• 34:35
  I said, how many do I to put together?
• 34:37
  She said.
• 34:38
  75, I was like, are, oh my goodness, 75.
• 34:42
  Those were the days, right?
• 34:44
  So I did this, I was standing, rejected, rejected.
• 34:46
  And then there was one agent who said, this spoke needs.
• 34:49
  I love it, but it's not working.
• 34:51
  You do.
• 34:52
  She said it needs a more integrated, dramatic scaffolding.
• 34:55
  And I said, I know if this's more to me, but together I don't understand.
• 35:00
  So I went back to Kara and I was like, you've got help me.
• 35:02
  She said, I love this book.
• 35:03
  And I said, well, there's nice screen.
• 35:04
  And so, but clearly something's wrong, but the red pocket again.
• 35:08
  So she looked it again and it is sort of a, the dual pilot kind of story, most of all my computer anyway.
• 35:16
  She ended up changing something, but the time runs to her crap up and it took her way and she said, this is what I think will work.
• 35:22
  Part of me was like, but the other part was that I've come so far, I've worked so hard.
• 35:27
  Yeah.
• 35:27
  But mind you just have to do the work If you know, if you could see the path, yeah.
• 35:31
  You gotta do it because, uh, hello New York Times and USA today bestsellers.
• 35:38
  And he literally printed out the scenes and I put it on the floor.
• 35:42
  It piles by POB and I physically rearranged those and never right, but I didn't know what else to do, put it back together and I started worrying it.
• 35:52
  And then two weeks I had two offers of rep.
• 35:56
  And it was subtly clear.
• 35:57
  I love it.
• 35:57
  It was clear.
• 35:58
  And so that's the book that thing was saying today, it's timeless.
• 36:02
  That's the book that was targeted, emerging offers.
• 36:05
  And people still write me about it.
• 36:08
  And I'll tell you during this front what they write me about it, because it has to do with a man who promised his wife that he would come home from cle.
• 36:19
  He was a climb guy.
• 36:20
  He said, no matter what, I'll go back to you.
• 36:22
  Or he desperately didn't want to do this particular tract.
• 36:25
  And, and this is not a spoiler.
• 36:28
  It's the very beginning, and he's at a ranch.
• 36:31
  And to keep his promise to her, he manages to integrate himself in scenario of a man who's never, oh my goodness.
• 36:42
  The wakes from an accident seeing a woman in a little boy.
• 36:45
  It is black.
• 36:46
  With no idea who they are.
• 36:47
  Missing all of his own memories, having only somebody's fingers boundaries, known that he needs only five years warning'cause he's a lover despite for that.
• 36:56
  And so for me, when I wrote it, I was fascinated by the ghosty part, the climbing part.
• 37:02
  But almost all of the emails that I are about, you know, I would've done anything to speak to the person that I loved again, especially when it was a connection.
• 37:11
  Yeah.
• 37:11
  It's all about that love story.
• 37:14
  Yeah.
• 37:14
  How I need people feel there.
• 37:16
  I was thinking I being so together and they just PMBI.
• 37:21
  No, nobody cares.
• 37:23
  This is why sometimes we read books where.
• 37:26
  The craft isn't a hundred percent necessarily spot on.
• 37:29
  We can't stop throwing the pages.
• 37:32
  It's because the writer has made us feel, and that is the number one job of writing romance more than anything else, make us feel, make us care.
• 37:44
  And that to me is what makes remains so special to get in the world.
• 37:49
  So things where it hurts us sometimes take care where it feels dangerous to care.
• 37:54
  Here is a safe space for remote with people laughing difficult things who get their happy ending.
• 38:00
  And it shows us ways that we can ask for what we want in the world.
• 38:04
  It shows us that even those, these are fictional heroines and heroes and everyone in between, that there can be that happy ending for us.
• 38:11
  That there is another way that these sorts of people might exist and that we don't have to sell.
• 38:16
  And that.
• 38:18
  Transformation extends beyond the romantic because we're talking about hearing the whole character saying every round of love.
• 38:24
  Oh my goodness, Emily, that was amazing.
• 38:27
  Okay, so you've got a new book coming out, which we talked about at the beginning, and so we will have all the links, um, in the show notes, but can you tell us where to find you?
• 38:38
  Where can readers, I mean, where can writers who are listening right now that wanna find your services, your coaching services and other things, where can we find you?
• 38:46
  So there's my website, emily collin.com or the ways to find me there.
• 38:51
  Uh, in terms of social media, I am most often on Instagram, uh, where you can find me at Emily Collin books.
• 38:58
  I do have a reader group, the shelf care queens, and I have a little strategic on Instagram as well.
• 39:04
  So I would always love connecting with readers and love my little, um, reader group and my street team chat.
• 39:10
  We talk about things selfish, but we also support each other in our kids difficult times.
• 39:14
  And I have a discord too, that you find your way into the ecosystem and you're more of a discord human you can get there.
• 39:20
  Oh my gosh.
• 39:21
  I am so convinced that every single writer listening to this is like right now is on, if you're on her website right now.
• 39:28
  Then I am not surprised.
• 39:30
  Thank you so much for coming today, Emily.
• 39:33
  So blessed to be sharing this conference with you and to have this time to geek out about romance.
• 39:38
  I was already in the cab, but I'm sure that you've convinced a lot of other writers here today.
• 39:43
  Well, it's truly my honor, ble, I'm so excited.
• 39:45
  I, I love talking with people about craft and talking with you in particular that's, you're so enthusiastic and you're already over midspan, so it's literally the best.
• 39:54
  So thank you for having me.
• 40:05
  Thanks for tuning into the show.
• 40:06
  Don't Tell Writing podcast with me, Susie Vidori.
• 40:09
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• 40:15
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• 40:19
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• 40:29
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• 40:31
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• 40:38
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• 40:46
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• 40:47
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• 40:53
  I'd love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your running goals.
• 41:02
  I am here to cheer you on.
• 41:04
  Remember that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
• 41:14
  See you again right here next week.