Latest / The Catholic Current / Seeking Covid Justice (Jeffrey Tucker) 4/9/26

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Seeking Covid Justice (Jeffrey Tucker) 4/9/26 · The Catholic Current

0:00
This is The Catholic Current with Fr. Robert Mettei.
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I suppose it has always been the case that news, just by definition, if you're covering
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story A, you're not covering story B. If you've got your camera focused on this frame, the
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camera isn't focused outside of the frame.
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That's inevitable.
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What concerns me is the principle for selection.
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All news is truth, filtered through the spirit of the age and whatever ends they see.
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Praise be Jesus Christ.
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This is Fr.
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Robert Mettei of The Society of Jesus, your daily host for The Catholic Current, where
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we bring Christ to the world and the world to Christ.
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As always, let's start with prayer.
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In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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Almighty God, through the intercession of St. Ignatius our Lord, we ask that you pour
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forth your Holy Spirit upon us, a spirit of discernment, that we may hear your voice and
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obey your command.
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In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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Amen.
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Well, friends, by the time you hear this recording, we will be in the octave of Easter.
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I have it in good authority that we are meant to be overcome with Paschal joy.
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I hope you had a glorious celebration of Easter and you finished Lent strongly.
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I have a hard thing that I want to talk about because six years ago, it was a very rough
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Lent and a very strange Easter because of the COVID interruption, the reign of King
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COVID, the season of COVID tide, if you will.
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And my returning guest has a lot to say about that, and he wanted to make sure that we learn
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the right lessons.
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He is a prolific author.
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He's founder and president of the Brownstone Institute for a managing editor of Sacred
1:53
Music and also senior economics columnist for the Epoch's Time.
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Jeffrey Tucker, welcome back to the Catholic Current.
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So good to be here.
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Thank you.
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Jeffrey, I think back to where I was six years ago when the powers that be, also known as
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the people with badges and guns and some invisible mascot called the science, decided that worship
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was not an essential service.
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Now, I'm a Jesuit missionary, I've been overseas in strange and odd places where I had to travel
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about incognito, etc.
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But I never thought in the United States that I would be offering the Easter vigil in my
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bedroom by myself because I couldn't have access to the church because the government
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said so.
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That's left a mark on me.
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I imagine you have similar scars as well.
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So many scars, so many scars, so deep.
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Yeah, the religious freedom aspect of this is probably the least commented upon, but
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it was a tremendous shock that governments dared to do such a thing.
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And they did it all over the country.
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You know, at the federal level, they closed all churches on military basis, and then that
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just sent a signal to all of the churches to close.
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And the ones that did open mostly had to open in secret, out of the view of authorities.
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And I'm sorry to say the bishops did not step up to protect the faithful.
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There was a lot of indecision and intimidation by the media that took place.
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And quite frankly, a lot of churches stayed closed for fear of the media and of the mob
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that was terrified of disease.
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They didn't want to be said to be socially irresponsible.
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They didn't want to be accused of spreading infectious disease to others.
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They wanted to be socially responsible.
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In a funny way, Father, many decades ago, even from the early part of the 20th century,
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there was this kind of innovation that's not all bad, but it was called the social gospel,
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right?
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So we're not just here to serve individual souls, we also have a social mission.
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Okay, it's true enough when you state it that way, and there are aspects of the social gospel
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that are consistent with traditional Christian belief, but there's a danger that you would
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use your social mission as an excuse not to perform your primary duty, which is service
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to the individual human soul.
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And I think that that was a little bit of what was going on here.
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All the world's powers were screaming, if you're going to do the right thing for society,
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you would keep your church closed, okay?
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So you'd think that that would have triggered some people to think, well, I'm not sure that
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that's correct, because we are—this is, you know, Easter, and you don't really want
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to cancel Easter ceremonies.
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But at the time, I think what happened here is what happened to a lot of people during
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this period.
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People did not think that they were doing evil things, but they chose not to exercise
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moral courage because of indecision and a concern for what other people would think.
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And that is what the devil needs.
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All the devil needs is indecision and prioritizing social messaging over your obligation.
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And a lot of people made that decision, not just in church, but in academia, and all across
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the country.
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Sure.
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I saw that very, very much in religious communities and, of course, in churches and so on.
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There was a Protestant pastor from Poland in Canada who was very heroic, because he
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knows what it's like to have men with badges and guns walk into your church and boss them
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around.
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And he got arrested and harassed and so on.
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And it's true.
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You know, there are the corporal works of mercy, as well as the spiritual works of mercy.
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And corporal works of mercy are actually certainly indispensable for living out the gospel.
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But there seemed to be a misplaced sense of priority.
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And I'm just going to jump on my soapbox for a moment and say, part of the appeal of
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the social gospel is, that's where the money is.
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People get grants for that.
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And if you're doing something social just to see, you almost never have to mention the
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Sixth Commandment, and we all breathe a sigh of relief.
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So that was the appeal.
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But also, and I think I've read some of what you wrote, I think you were very charitable.
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Some people had the best of intentions.
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I think some people didn't.
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Let's not forget that the governor of California, who is enthusiastic in his draconian measures,
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was photographed at a very, very swanky French restaurant, you know, shoulder to shoulder
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with wealthy benefactors without masks, yucking it up and having a good time.
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Meanwhile, grandma had to die alone in a hospital.
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We've got about three minutes left in this segment.
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Can we talk a little bit about some more of the apparent disingenuous of some of the
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more enthusiastic enforcers?
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Right.
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I mean, there was the top public health official in the state of New York was engaged in activities
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that I can't even describe on this broadcast.
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Right.
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They're so lurid.
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So yeah, there was definitely sort of evil elements at work.
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I mean, demonic elements.
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But I guess my point is that they were only given power because the people that should
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have stood up for what was right just felt indecisive, you know, which in many ways,
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this is how and why the crucifixion happened, actually.
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Yes.
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You know, the mobs turned on Jesus.
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The Pontius Pilate was unwilling to stand up for what was right.
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And some very bad people wanted him dead, you know.
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And that sort of combination of factors led to the killing of our Lord.
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Yes.
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And so that paradigm, if you understand it, the social dynamics and the role of moral
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courage and indecision in enabling that event, you in fact do understand a lot of what happened.
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During the COVID period.
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It's strange to say, but it's a great metaphor or analog, I would say, for what happened
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to us.
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You know, I was asked many times on and off the air during the thick of the COVID interruption
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about whether or not this represented a divine chastisement.
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And I said, I don't know.
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I said, I don't think God would let me off the hook that easily.
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But I do believe that the hearts of many were being revealed.
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There were Orwellian bureaucrats who decided not to let a good crisis go to waste.
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There were certainly people who decided to cash in on that.
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And my goodness, we saw a lot of American citizens acting like East German neighbors
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denouncing their friends and family to the Stasi.
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It was a very ugly time.
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I think it brought out the worst in people.
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I think it's done long lasting harm and deservedly so, candidly, for people's expectations of
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science and medicine and industry as well.
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And I find it really repulsive that people with badges and guns decided that liquor stores,
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marijuana dispensaries, and abortuaries were essential services, but me preaching the gospel
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and making the sacraments available to people was somehow not necessary.
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And while there was a great deal of ingenuity from my brethren on how to distribute Holy
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Communion in difficult circumstances, there didn't seem to be much enthusiasm for applying
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that kind of ingenuity for making sacramental confession available to people.
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This is a dark chapter in our history, and I think it's a stain on our honor.
10:57
Friends, when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Jeffrey Tucker,
11:00
who's founder and president of the Brownstone Institute.
11:03
We're talking about lessons learned from COVID and an important resolution for seeking COVID
11:09
justice.
11:10
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Praise be Jesus Christ.
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We're talking about seeking COVID justice.
13:27
My returning guest is Jeffrey Tucker of the Brownstone Institute.
13:31
Jeffrey, as we're recording this, Lent is coming to an end.
13:35
It's a penitential season.
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It's really hard to get people to gin up much enthusiasm for fasting and acts of reparation
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and atonement and so on, but during the COVID tide, there seemed to be public identification
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of sin and sinners and mandatory mortification in a way that I'm not aware of the Church
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ever asking the faithful.
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And even secularists went along with it with a lawn, with enthusiasm.
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I'm sure you saw that too.
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What do you make of it?
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And by the way, the COVID regime also had its own holy water.
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It had a sanitizer it wanted everybody to do, and constant washing of hands was kind
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of a replication.
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Unclean, unclean.
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Yeah.
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So, in history, there is, in periods of infectious disease, have always been associated with
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acts of penance.
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And during the Black Death in Europe, for example, it gave rise to these groups that
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were called the flagellants, and they would dress in sackcloth and ashes and go from town
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to town doing penance because they thought that penance would rid the place of disease
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and to shame people who were engaged in partying activities and festivals and things like that.
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So it was a very interesting movement.
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But what happened with COVID is that history of the flagellants became secularized.
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So COVID was pitched to us as like, well, God is—well, we're being punished as a society
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because we're doing bad things, like having Trump as president, or I don't know what other
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kind of bad things we're doing.
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But they were demanding that everybody adopt extreme sacrifice to rid us of this disease.
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So standing six feet apart, not seeing family, foregoing weddings and funerals, not having
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dinner parties, breaking up your bridge club, don't go to church, yes, that small business
15:45
is closed.
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If you don't like it, you can always go to the liquor store and buy some liquor.
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Extreme forms of sacrifice that people were willing to undertake.
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And I noticed that even in people's dress from the earliest days, people that used to
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dress in sort of fun ways or whatever were suddenly wearing woolen clothes and sandals
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and pajamas everywhere and masking their faces, kind of like a secular version of the flagellants.
16:19
So there was this weird spiritual dimension.
16:22
The thing that struck me—oh, and also the protocols were so complicated.
16:28
Sometimes you could go into a restaurant, you had to wear a mask when you walked in
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the restaurant.
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You sat down, you could take off your mask.
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But if you ever got up to go to the bathroom or you got a flea, you had to put your mask
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back on.
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Really complicated.
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Yeah, it was bizarre.
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And then they were changing, right?
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So early on, there was a belief that COVID was inside.
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So—well, no, early on, it was that COVID was outside, so you have to stay inside.
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But that changed at some point, and there was a belief that COVID was inside, so you
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have to go outside.
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So there was one point where I was at a train stop, and I got a glass of wine at the place
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across the street, and I said—she said, well, you have to drink it outside.
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This was as late as November, and it was pretty cold outside.
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And I said, you know, it's a little cold outside, I'd rather just sit down in that
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room right there, which seems to be empty.
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And the lady said, well, you can't do that because of COVID.
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And I said, do you think that COVID is in that room?
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And she said, yes.
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So yeah, so very complicated protocols that you had to learn on the fly.
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You know, it took hundreds of years for basic signs of religion, like the sign of the cross
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or putting holy water on, or genuflecting in front of the tabernacle when you go in—basic,
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what do you call it, sacramentals, whatever, of the church, were hundreds of years in development.
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The sacramentals of COVID were, like, weeks in development, and everybody adopted them.
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Right.
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No, it was surpassing strange, and the enthusiasm about it all was certainly profoundly disturbing
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as well.
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And it was—I mean, it was bizarre.
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I mean, I remember going—I tried to support a local stationery store because I sold stationery
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and they were local, and, you know, I had to mask up, and I had to sanitize my hand,
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and I couldn't pay with cash, but then I took all my merchandise, which everybody in
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the world could touch, and then the vendor who made me stay six feet apart just handled
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everything that I handled.
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And so there was kind of a shamanism, you know, the great shaman, you know, led by the
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Hierophant of the Cabal, you know, Tony Fauci, got to decide what was clean and what was
18:59
unclean, and people were very adamant about that.
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And there was a kind of superstition that, unfortunately, Catholics, I think, have been
19:08
unjustly accused of.
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How do we account for this in what prides itself in being a secular society?
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Isn't it the strange thing?
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It shows that people have this innate need, or this persistent need, for all the sort
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of categories that Christianity identifies, like adhering to protocols, penance for your
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sins, you know, all these things were converted and abused and intensified during the COVID
19:37
period.
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For a society without God—I just want to mention really quickly, as long as you're
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talking about clean and unclean, do you remember clean pens and dirty pens?
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I mean, I…
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Oh, yeah.
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That was an amazing thing.
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It's hard to believe that actually went—you use a pen and then put it in the dirty pen
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box, and then they'd sanitize them, put them back in a clean pen box, and it's something
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unbelievable.
20:05
But, yeah, and one thing I will tell you, at some point, I drove from Massachusetts
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to Texas to see my mother.
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It was a long drive.
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Yeah, oh gosh, yeah.
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During that trip—this is in the darkest times of the COVID period—and I noticed
20:24
something really interesting, and I was not imagining it.
20:28
You go from Massachusetts, which tends to be, in general, you know, highly educated,
20:33
very secular, where there were drones flying over the skies, seeking out parties and turning
20:39
them into local press.
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All the churches and synagogues were closed.
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Everybody was walking around in their flagellant costumes.
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Super depressing.
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The more you went south, I noticed a number of things.
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You saw more billboards advertising religious things.
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There were more religious stations on the radio, and the churches were more visible,
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and they were open, and people were out walking.
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And the further south I drove, the more open it was.
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And in my mind, I realized, at that moment, I thought, you know what?
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There seems to be a connection here between adherence to COVID tyranny and a lack of faith
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and doubts towards the powers that be in the presence of more robust faith.
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And that is an empirical observation.
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I saw it in real time.
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It was not mysterious to me.
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It was very obvious to me that that was true.
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And so, you know, that made a strong impression on me.
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I think it's a meaningful one, which is another way of saying, in general, and there are exceptions,
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but if you want to protect yourself ultimately against a despotic regime, the best possible
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mental preparation you can have is to serve a different master.
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Yes, yes.
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See, that's one of the reasons why totalitarians have always hated the church, because the
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church has transcendent goals, and it recognizes authority beyond the dear leader or the dictator
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or the proletariat or the party or the magic document, et cetera.
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I think that that is tremendously important.
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And you know, I've spent a lot of time with Northeast academics, and somehow, you know,
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if you're intelligent, you can only be religious anyway.
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You can only be religious despite your intelligence.
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But it seemed to me that the so-called intelligentsia, they were enthusiastic about it pretty much
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every COVID superstition you can imagine.
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I'm sure you've seen this, too, you know, you're a musician, you know, kids at the high
23:05
school orchestra wearing masks, but with an opening for their mouth for their wind instrument.
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And nobody had a sense of irony about this at all.
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How did educated people fall for this so quickly?
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Isn't it remarkable?
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And as a result, vast swaths of academia has been entirely discredited.
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Right, I'm right with you.
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Yeah, it's amazing.
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In February, no, in early, early March 2020, the Yale School of Public Health put out a
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long document saying, don't lock people down, don't quarantine people unjustly, don't violate
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people's civil rights, stay open, doctors know how to treat COVID.
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It was signed by 800 public health scientists within two weeks later, when Fauci prevailed,
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they changed, and they flipped their entire view in the other direction.
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I think once the word got out that said, this is the real science, this is science, nothing
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else is a science, and all the educated elites said, well, I don't want to be unscientific,
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I better follow the science.
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Well, this is a very dangerous thing, actually, if you think about it.
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So what else can we call the science and cause the educated elite to go along with it?
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You know?
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It's absurd.
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Right, and as I said, if there is nothing above the state, then the state becomes the
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absolute, and it holds in its hand the powers of life and death.
24:39
You know, I'm hit over the head periodically with the claim, you know, nobody has a monopoly
24:44
on truth, Father, except for the scientific establishment in a time of crisis.
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Then they have a monopoly on truth.
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And I'll just point out, you know, I read Mr. Kennedy's book on Anthony Fauci and found
24:59
it a profoundly disturbing book, and yet I know that Holy Cross College renamed its largest
25:05
science building for Tony Fauci, and if I'm not mistaken, as of this recording, Dr. Fauci
25:11
is a distinguished visiting professor in the School of Medicine, and he hasn't been held
25:17
to account for his errors, we'll just put it that way.
25:22
He hasn't been held to account for his errors at all, and the people who are the loudest
25:28
advocates for social justice and no kings seem to have let him get away with it.
25:32
Friends, when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Jeffrey Tucker
25:35
of the Brownson Institute.
25:37
We're talking about seeking COVID justice and a COVID resolution.
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We're talking about seeking COVID justice today.
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My returning guest today is Jeffrey Tucker of the Brownstone Institute.
27:30
We're talking about seeking COVID justice.
27:33
Jeffrey, you're part of a movement for a COVID justice resolution.
27:39
I think of countries that have had times of very great trauma, and there's usually some
27:46
sort of justice and reconciliation committee or effort and so on, that we really won't
27:54
be free from the past until we have a candid account of what happened and put in place
28:01
protections so that never happens again.
28:04
Are you seeking something similar with this COVID justice resolution?
28:07
We have to have it.
28:08
We haven't had enough talk about what happened.
28:10
It's interesting what you said that just revisiting this, you sort of re-experience the trauma
28:15
in a way.
28:16
Sure.
28:17
And I understand that people want to forget about it, but I've had this experience now
28:21
for years that I'll get to know somebody and we'll go to have dinner or lunch or something
28:26
like that.
28:27
And if enough time goes by, then I'll revisit this period.
28:30
And you can just tell that there's this feeling of, I don't know what the right word is, but
28:35
there's a cathartic feeling where people finally being open and talking about it.
28:42
Because it's almost like we've been told not to talk about it, just forget about it and
28:46
move on.
28:47
I don't think that's sustainable because we all live with an anxiety that this happened
28:53
to us, and we worry it could happen again.
28:57
And we wonder, well, what do the people in the Commanding Heights, what do the princes
29:03
of the world think about what happened?
29:06
And do we have any assurances of any sort, I mean, is there any document, any commission,
29:13
any statement from anybody who's powerful that makes it clear that this was wrong, that
29:18
it was unworkable, that it was contrary to human rights, religious freedom?
29:24
Do we have anything?
29:25
And the answer to that is we do not.
29:29
So I was hanging out with some leaders in some top organizations, and I pointed this
29:37
out, and they said, well, what are we going to do?
29:41
And I said, well, you know what would be great, let's think about the minimum most step.
29:46
How about a very broadly worded, seemingly incontrovertible statement that we could put
29:55
in front of the U.S. Senate or any legislative body, at any level of society, that would
30:01
just say, here's what happened and it was wrong, here's what happened and it was wrong,
30:06
this happened and it was wrong, and just kind of march through the list and just conclude
30:10
by saying this was all gravely injurious to society, and we pledged to make sure nothing
30:18
like this ever happens again.
30:19
So if we could get one statement like that from some institution in our nation that is
30:28
a clean and clear repudiation of that event, I think that would help people heal physically,
30:37
spiritually, and then give us some confidence to build a future without this sort of looming
30:44
threat, this seeming sort of Damocles that's hanging over us all the time.
30:50
Until we get some admissions of wrongdoing, we're never really going to be able to overcome
30:58
that.
30:59
Jonathan I mean, there was some ugly precedence set,
31:02
and no accountability at all.
31:06
I'm just looking at the first part of the resolution here, you know, can we admit the
31:10
prolonged closure of schools was deleterious?
31:13
You know, the restriction on private businesses deemed non-essential by whomever, that was
31:20
horrifying.
31:21
You know, I have a friend who's a bishop, and I think his diocese has over two dozen
31:26
counties and he had to have a meeting with each individual county health supervisor who
31:34
suddenly became king of the county, and they had mutually exclusive requirements and regulations,
31:40
you know, and admissions about the mask mandates and the stay-at-home orders.
31:44
And gosh, you know, all those people who are gearing up for the next No Kings rally, I'm
31:50
wondering if that might take 10 or 15 minutes of their time and, you know, say something
31:55
about this.
31:56
And then I think of what I call the senior Catholic cadres of the people who should really
32:01
know better club who are making sagacious pronouncements about war in the Persian Gulf
32:06
and immigration policy, et cetera, and the limits of government and what government should
32:11
and shouldn't do.
32:12
I would like to think they would be enthusiastic about this kind of accountability as well,
32:18
but then we run into McTague's axiom, which my listeners know, states that most institutions
32:24
would rather die than admit that anyone ever made a mistake.
32:29
Let's say this resolution comes to pass.
32:33
You start with, there are things that are undeniable, mistakes were made.
32:38
I think that's fair.
32:41
And then you make recommendations for going forward.
32:45
What's some of the forward-looking aspects of this resolution?
32:49
Well, to adhere to the Bill of Rights, you know, which is kind of a...
32:56
I remember that.
32:57
Yeah, I remember the Bill of Rights.
32:59
Yeah.
33:00
I mean, the Bill of Rights is very interesting because the founders put that in place.
33:04
The Constitution was advanced, and here's the Constitution.
33:08
And a lot of people said, look, this Constitution is great, but we need a guarantee, you know,
33:14
something that really is solid of what the Constitution has a lot about what the government
33:19
can do.
33:20
We need a clean, clear statement of what the government cannot do.
33:23
So the very first thing they put in there was freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
33:28
All right?
33:29
So that was the First Amendment.
33:31
And there's many wonderful amendments in there, but all of them were violated in some way
33:37
during the COVID period.
33:39
So we just need a pledge to not do that anymore.
33:43
The way you handle a pandemic condition is that you don't panic, right?
33:50
And that's first.
33:52
And you try to make a realistic assessment of who's vulnerable and who's not based on
33:59
the known data of the infection fatality rate.
34:04
And then you can make suggestions to people about how to conduct their lives in a way
34:12
that would be most safe for themselves and for others.
34:16
But coercing people into a big central plan that was inspired ultimately by the Communist
34:23
Party in China is not something we should be doing in the United States.
34:29
We've never done anything like that, like ever.
34:32
We didn't do it in 68, 69, 57, 58, during the polio epidemic of 1942, during the parent
34:38
flu of 1929.
34:39
You know, we've just never done.
34:42
Even in the 1918 flu, which was extremely deadly, that came in the wake of the Great
34:51
War, Manhattan stayed entirely open.
34:55
There were some masking, a little bit of school closures, but they didn't last long.
35:02
And we learned from that that panicking helped no one in the conditions of infectious disease.
35:11
The other thing that's very interesting is that Christianity has its own model of infectious
35:17
disease in a way.
35:19
Like we had the example of Jesus, who never let fear of disease stop His ministry, and
35:26
He quite frequently would engage in healings to stop discrimination against people that
35:36
were said to be diseased, like Simon the Leper.
35:38
But hadn't had leprosy in many years, but He was still barred from the temple.
35:44
But He couldn't find a rabbi to bless Him, so Jesus did the honor, you know.
35:52
So we're not supposed to otherize people who are infected, we're supposed to comfort them
35:58
and be near them.
36:01
The other interesting thing is the liturgical calendar itself is constructed in a way to
36:09
give good advice concerning infectious disease.
36:13
So we associate the dawning of spring with public gatherings and, you know, going outdoors.
36:23
That's good, you're getting vitamin D from the sun, you're able to be with other people,
36:28
there's a celebratory aspect of Eastertide and so on.
36:32
That's consistent with the need to train the immune system with maximum exposure so it
36:38
gets strong for what?
36:41
For the time after, you know, the later part of Advent and during the winter months, where
36:48
people are spending more time indoors with family, avoiding large gatherings, and instead
36:57
being a little more protective when the sun's not out.
37:01
So the liturgical calendar, at least for this hemisphere, is consistent with what the Great
37:07
Barrington Declaration authors called focus protection.
37:11
So in other words, we have built within the structure of the faith and the social order
37:16
the best possible means that we have of protecting people against infectious disease.
37:23
We don't need Fauci's new science with his crazy rigmaroles and kabuki dances to replace
37:32
our traditions and our freedoms.
37:34
We've got about three minutes left in this segment.
37:36
Could you talk about the wound that was done to public media?
37:41
I know that church authorities, government authorities, medical authorities have been
37:46
injured by the COVID interruption.
37:48
Talk about the popular media, please.
37:51
During this period, they completely acquiesced to whatever the government wanted.
37:55
There was one point at which YouTube itself said, we won't allow anything on this platform
38:00
that contradicts the advice of the World Health Organization.
38:04
So that meant the removal of millions and millions of videos immediately.
38:09
There was just one science, one—censorship was very intense.
38:13
Many people got their accounts taken down and throttled.
38:16
This happened on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on what was then called Twitter.
38:23
It was universal.
38:25
And I'm pretty good friends with one of the top health reporters in the New York Times.
38:30
They were the top offender during this period.
38:34
They just went along completely with whatever Fauci was preaching at the time.
38:41
And she's the author of a book that's coming out, but apparently I'm featured in the book.
38:45
I'm very interested to see what it says.
38:47
But she wanted my point of view on it, and I said, well, let me tell you.
38:52
And I spent probably five hours of interview time with her on it, just giving her my outlook
38:59
on what the New York Times did during this period, which was—I mean, they—father,
39:06
they ran an opinion piece on their op-ed page by one of their own reporters on March 13th,
39:19
2020, that said, to take on the coronavirus, go medieval on it, okay?
39:26
So that was a weird statement, by which he meant close the cities, quarantine everybody.
39:36
I mean, actually, the truth is that the Middle Ages, nothing like COVID ever happened, right?
39:42
Nobody said six feet of distance, that's ridiculous, you know?
39:47
I mean, it's ridiculous.
39:49
Yeah.
39:50
We're coming—we're just about to come up on a break, so we'll take up the thread in
39:54
the next conversation.
39:56
I think it was interesting that the secular scientists invoked, you know, legends and
40:02
myths about peoples of faith, and that we're so liberated from that blind faith and that
40:09
not evidentiary way of acting, when they themselves fell into a pit they had dug, a pit that we—that
40:17
they claimed that we had had ownership over.
40:20
Friends, when we come back, I want to continue our conversation with Jeffrey Tuck with the
40:23
Brownstone Institute.
40:24
We're talking about seeking COVID justice and a new COVID resolution.
40:29
Be part of the conversation.
40:31
Follow our following by following us on Gab—that's G-A-B dot com.
40:36
The channel is The Catholic Current.
40:38
And we said some challenging things today, and we want to hear from you.
40:41
Write us at thestationofthecross.com slash askfather.
40:46
What were your memories, best and worst, from the time of the COVID interruption?
40:51
Do you see things differently now than before COVID started?
40:55
That's thestationofthecross.com slash askfather.
40:59
For the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com to get our resources list, download our audio
41:04
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41:05
Take us to your family and friends, together we'll take it to the whole world.
41:09
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41:30
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41:34
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41:37
Go to thestationofthecross.com slash askfather and help influence the conversation.
41:50
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41:54
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42:27
Our returning guest today is Jeffrey Tucker, founder and president of the Brownstone Institute,
42:31
and we're talking about the COVID justice resolution, and we're linking to that in
42:36
the show notes.
42:37
Jeffrey, tell us about the resolution and how people can support it.
42:42
So we pushed this thing out there as a way for people to make a clean, clear, and I think
42:50
non-controversial statement about what was wrong and about the censorship, the closures,
42:56
the attack on religious liberty.
42:58
So anybody can sign it.
43:00
I think we're up to about 32,000, 33,000 signatures now.
43:05
And that's good because, again, this is a subject that everybody's just trying to
43:10
sweep under the carpet in a strange way.
43:12
There are plenty of people that hope to use the COVID lockdowns as an example of success
43:19
and how you can control society from the top down.
43:24
And many people want that to last, you know, as a model not for what's bad, but as a
43:32
model for what was good and what's possible.
43:35
And I think we just need to stop this right now.
43:39
And I think if we get enough signatures, the idea of the signatures is just to show
43:46
political leaders at all levels.
43:49
Really, it could be your town, could be your county or state.
43:53
This one's aimed at the U.S. Senate.
43:56
We need you to speak out on this.
43:59
And if you're not willing to do this, can we really trust you in the future?
44:08
You know, when they're going to try to lock us down for a shortage of food or a
44:12
shortage of energy or some other crazy excuse, how do we know they're not going to
44:18
just go along with that again?
44:20
We don't know until we get a clear statement about this.
44:24
So I actually think this is extremely important.
44:28
And before this resolution, regular people did not have any means of registering
44:34
their opinions about this.
44:36
So that's why I think this is a really innovative project.
44:41
It came to me, like I say, during this phone call when we were trying to figure
44:44
out what are we going to do.
44:46
Well, before we can really move forward here, we've got to get a statement about
44:52
what happened to us.
44:54
So I crafted the statement myself.
44:57
And it doesn't express, but I have very intense views about this.
45:02
There's things that I would love to put, I deliberately wrote it in a way that's
45:06
broad so that even like a Democrat could sign it, you know?
45:12
There's nothing controversial in there, right?
45:15
I mean, you said things that were obviously true, that were undeniable.
45:22
My concern is that, you know, what you're proposing will put limits on
45:31
unaccountable bureaucratic power.
45:33
And part of the appeal, I'm told, about being an unaccountable bureaucrat
45:38
is the power.
45:40
I think there were people who liked having that kind of power over others,
45:46
and there were certainly people who profited from it as well.
45:50
And I would like to hear from the people who really lost everything.
45:55
I remember reading an essay by a gentleman who repaired unusual car parts
46:01
for antique cars at home.
46:03
People would basically put the part in a metal box at his shop.
46:08
He would fix it by himself and then put it in the metal box on the outside
46:14
so that people could come and collect it.
46:16
There was no human contact at all, but some county health supervisor
46:20
absolutely insisted that he needed to go out of business
46:24
because it was non-essential.
46:29
I think this should be a sobering waking up call to say that under the right
46:34
circumstances, your neighbors can be enthusiastic little tyrants,
46:41
and that we really failed the rallying cry to defend our neighbors and ourselves.
46:49
I think that kind of conversation needs to be brought out into the light.
46:54
We've got about three minutes left in this segment.
46:57
What's your fondest wish for this effort regarding the COVID resolution?
47:02
What would you see as the best outcome?
47:05
At least in the future, media would be afraid to censor,
47:11
that they might be emboldened to be able to stand up to government
47:16
when government calls them on the phone and says,
47:17
we don't like that guy taking his post out.
47:19
The idea of dividing the workforce and commerce between essential
47:24
and non-essential is totalitarian.
47:26
Sure.
47:27
Nothing like that should ever happen.
47:29
During that period, I actually had to arrange for speakeasy haircuts.
47:36
Sure.
47:37
I brought all my friends in.
47:40
I paid a barber and brought all my friends in who paid her cash in the bathroom
47:48
to cut everybody's hair because barbershops are closed.
47:51
Another friend had to give a secret knock to get into a barber
47:58
who refused to speak to her.
48:00
It's crazy.
48:01
There was a time when you couldn't get dentistry in this country.
48:04
When I think about the New York Times saying we need to go medieval on it,
48:07
maybe that's what he meant, we need to get rid of dentistry.
48:10
At the same time, if somebody wanted an abortion,
48:14
I don't know how you maintain a six-feet distancing to perform an abortion,
48:19
but apparently that made sense to some people.
48:23
It was a very ugly and grotesque time in our history,
48:28
and I think people need to admit it.
48:31
Now, this isn't something that you cooked up on your own.
48:33
There are other organizations who are supporting this effort.
48:36
Tell us about them, please.
48:37
Yeah, that's Children's Health Defense, which has been all over this issue
48:41
for a long time, and the Maha Institute signed it.
48:46
There are other organizations there.
48:49
The Health Freedom Defense Fund, I'm very proud of these organizations
48:54
because you know who you don't see there are things like the ACLU.
49:01
Yeah, isn't that interesting?
49:03
Yeah, you don't see the Cato Institute.
49:07
You don't see Brookings Institute.
49:09
You don't see any of these old institutions.
49:11
Yeah, I see now we have 34,100.
49:14
That's a good number, but I'd like to see a zero on that.
49:18
Sure.
49:19
There are organizations that are newly aware that we need to fight
49:24
for our liberties.
49:26
Father, one thing I would just say about this, we used to talk,
49:31
even looking back at my undergraduate days, we'd talk a lot about
49:35
what is tyranny, what is despotism, what is freedom,
49:38
what is the relationship of religion to the rise of liberty.
49:42
These conversations were all very interesting,
49:46
but they all seemed really abstract.
49:49
Right, right.
49:51
If you want to speak about some kind of blessing that comes out
49:55
of the COVID period, it was that we realized that these are not
49:59
parlor games.
50:01
These are not just empty speculations of intellectuals.
50:05
That's a luxurious form of conversation.
50:09
I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're running out of time,
50:12
but it seems to me that we need to continue this conversation before long.
50:16
Meanwhile, God bless you, very good work,
50:18
and I look forward to our next conversation.
50:20
Thank you, Father.
50:21
I'm Jesuit Father Robert McTague, your host every day of The Catholic Current.
50:24
By popular demand, I am continuing my Friday series regarding tyranny,
50:30
and I'm going to raise the question, no kings question mark,
50:34
so you want to join us for that tomorrow on The Catholic Current.
50:38
After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com,
50:41
get our resources list, download our audio as podcast,
50:44
or if you can find audio, you can find us.
50:46
Follow us on your favorite platform, write a five-star review,
50:49
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50:51
Together, we'll take it to the whole world.
50:53
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel,
50:55
may mighty God bless you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
50:58
Go in peace, and please do pray for me, for I am a sinner.
51:11
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