Latest / Anything But Routine / 237. Every Dancer Matters | Keeping Alternates Engaged and Ready

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237. Every Dancer Matters | Keeping Alternates Engaged and Ready · Anything But Routine

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: We don't wait for the rhythm to lead.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: We make the rhythm.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: We call, we create, we think but routine.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, this is Cindy Clow, and I'm excited for this episode of Anything Routine because we're meeting with April Wagner.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: She is a 32-year veteran coach from Lake Mary Marionettes in Florida.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And gosh, we met at NDCA apparently, what, in 2019?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so just to let you know, like I went to high school at Lake Mary.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You did.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like me.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm coaching where I went to high school.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that crazy?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, I'm up up I'm up in New Jersey.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, now you're in New Jersey.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm at Rancocus Valley Original High School.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm gonna read your whole bio here out loud so we get it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you um April Wagner is a dedicated dance educator, coach, and choreographer, more than 32 years of experience inspiring dancers and developing successful award-winning programs.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: A 89 graduate and former captain of the Lake Mary Marionettes.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm getting it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: April earned her degree in health, physical education and dance from the University of South Florida in 94.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: During her time at UCF, she was a member and captain of the UCF Sundalls from 89 to 94.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: She also spent the summers of 91 and 92 working with Dance America camps, where she further developed her passion for dance education.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: She began her teaching career in Mainland High School in Daytona Beach, Florida, where she was named the Sally May First Year Teacher of the Year for the state of Florida in 94-95.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: She later brought her passion and expertise to Rancocas Valley Regional High School in Mount Holly, New Jersey, where she founded the RV Dance Team 27 years ago and continues to serve as its coach, choreographer, and mentor.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Under her leadership, the team has built a nationally recognized program earning 18 New Jersey State Championships and six NDA national championships.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: For the past 27 years, April has led her team to NDA nationals, primarily competing in the team performance and high kick categories.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, there is so much here that I'm gonna put the rest online so we can start talking.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: But wow, this is impressive.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I did not even know that um New Jersey did big state championships, so that's exciting.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start by talking about that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So who runs the New Jersey championships?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there's a New Jersey Cheer and Dance Coaches Association in New Jersey, and the dance um portion of that is a lot smaller than the cheerleading portion.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it we're like trying to build it back up and try to get as many um dance teams in New Jersey to be involved because um it it's it's very difficult trying to get all of the dance teams that compete at UDA and NDA and DTU to come together at one place to really like you know get it all together.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh we've been working on trying to build that championship up again, and we've been having great success.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um one of my assistant coaches, Mary Bowlby, has actually like taken it under her wing, and so now she's in charge of the dance portion, which is fantastic.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we're hoping that it just continues to grow each and every year.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, like how big is it?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many teams are in it?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's pretty small because there's not that many teams in New Jersey.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not as big as Florida or Texas, or obviously, bless you, sorry, as Minnesota or New York, but New Jersey has most of the teams are in North Jersey, but we're in the southern part of New Jersey, so there's not as many teams.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we probably have about 15 to 20 teams each year, and we're hoping to try to get more.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's exciting hearing about New Jersey, and and it's interesting because I was just in North Dakota last weekend talking to their association about how we could grow it back up.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: They've lost a lot of teams, so it's interesting that that's been happening for you guys in New Jersey as well.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: But let's talk about what we decided to talk about today, which is every dancer matters, keeping alternates engaged, growing, and ready.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a really valid topic because you know, this is my 50th year of coaching, you're in your 32nd.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Alternates are the lifeblood of your team.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And gosh, like they're just such a valid part of everyone's team that that it's a I can't remember how our discussion started.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was on Facebook or something, like people were asking how to do it.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is your approach to alternates and and how has it changed over your years of coaching, or how can we get into this?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do you understand now, maybe that you didn't understand then?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so basically, for uh when we actually have tryouts, um, all of the parent we have a parent meeting before tryouts even happen.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I explained to them your dancer that makes the team may or may not be information when we go to competitions.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think them knowing that ahead of time helps prepare them so that they kind of understand what their role may or may not be.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think as soon as um, you know, we put the roster out there, everybody makes the team that's on the list, but then we don't post any like alternates per se, because then they would be immediately defeated as a person.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I do the same way.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't post alternates either.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so they're on the team.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then how we do it is um at all the local and community events, everything on campus and in the community, every kid dances.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Whether they're in the formation or not, they can dance behind the formation because in the school events and the community events, the people that are watching have no idea.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, they don't know what they're watching, they don't know who's in, who's out, right?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: But at least all the parents get to see their children dancing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's neat.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't do that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I've done similar things where we've had, and I know a coach in the in Minneapolis that has like formation, and then she does like on the outskirts of the formation, she has her alternates, and you can't really tell.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: She has to move in and out, but then they get she also gets to see what they are they can do out there.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, and that's and they're videotaped, so they can see, and their parents can say, Oh man, that you know, that dancer didn't hit their double or triple turn or whatever, so that I can see their kicks are not as high as the other kids in formation, so I get it, and then at least they get the performance opportunity instead of sitting on the side.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're performing at a basketball game or at the local community day, it it doesn't really matter.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right, it doesn't really matter, right?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I tell them that um, you know, this is the experience and what we do, we have them at practice.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I take, say, if there's 20 people on the team and only 16 spots, I take the four weakest dancers and they get what I call a backtracker.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So Sally gets to backtrack Susie's spot.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, like almost share a spot.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: They share the spot.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've done that too.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And each time we do a run through, then they sub in and out.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So they can actually go from formation to formation.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: They can feel they can feel what it feels like to be in the spot, and then that way uh, you know, they have a higher chance of getting in.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: As soon as someone is injured or in trouble or something like that, then the backtracker gets a chance to actually perform, and that that helps them gain confidence.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of times the backtrackers even end up learning more than one spot.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that you have to be smart, and and they are the dancers are smart.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is sponsored by Just for Kix's performance tour to the Relife Quest Bowl in Tampa, Florida.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is a great trip for your studio or school team.
• 9:25
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• 9:32
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• 9:37
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• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: We compete a lot, and you know, like you'll have things, you know.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I compare it to another sport.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was just at my grandson's football game.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Five kids got injured in one game.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the next week there was a lot of different kids in because they had to sub in other people, and you have to have alternates to go in.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: We call them swings.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: The right we we call them swings, and the rockettes call them swings.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I got that name from them because I had a rockette on my staff once.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, she just said that we we have kid people there, it's professional, but they swing in and out because they have people get hurt or they have people that maybe aren't keeping up.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I feel if you don't have somebody on their tail, they don't work as hard.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: When you have the people that are sharing spots, boy, do they work harder.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, at one point I coached with someone who like say it would be competition day and somebody got hurt, she would never put anyone in because she was worried they couldn't do it.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we have found since that if we do put people in and they know they might have to go in on a moment's notice, boy, do they work hard, you know.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I mean, there's people I had a kid get last year, she broke her finger on the way to an event, or I guess this was two years ago.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had to put somebody else in.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: She was on the bus when she found out she was going in, and it was at a championship for conference, and she did it, you know.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: But she had trained hard, and so it's sometimes it it really does fit the bill because I know with our formations, you can't leave holes or it's gonna look not right.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we've we've done that several times.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: I for example, last well, ever normally every year at nationals, um it happens.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Two people are kind of fighting for this one spot, and you know, I have to tell them at nationals in Florida, hey, I've made my decision finally.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I sit both both of the dancers down, we talk about discuss strengths, weaknesses, and I make my decision and we sit and talk about it, and then I make the decision and they I tell them, and then they hug each other and support one another and help each other.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happened a couple years ago, both of those dancers ended up being leaders for me.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And they were just so supportive of each other.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: One was, you know, one was one was a freshman and one was a sophomore.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the freshman ended up dancing over the sophomore that year, which turned out fine.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, they both ended up being captains of my team eventually.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then this past year, when we got to Florida, I had to make a decision um between um a junior and a senior, which was very, very difficult.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the senior ended up going in and we ended up winning a national championship.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and but they again, they were very supportive of one another.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I'm just proud of them because this is real life situation.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be prepared and you have to learn how to take uh disappointment sometimes, and it's all about the team, it's never about individuals.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And don't you think that parents, when you when you said you had a parent meeting and you say it at the parent meeting and they know that's a possibility, they realize that's just the way you operate.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are they a little more um not I don't want to call it forgiving, but understanding?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you feel like you get parent drama over that?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the parent drama maybe is just within the parents.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that you know they're they're comfortable enough uh confronting me about it.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I did have a a meeting last year.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: I approached the parent of the senior and explained it to her, the mom.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Look, this is what I need for your daughter to do.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we're always constantly talking about, you know, the strengths and weaknesses.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then I actually told the mom, these are the things that I need your daughter to do in order to get in.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: And since she knew exactly what it was, I guess she didn't communicate it with the the dancer didn't communicate with her mom.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hearing it from me, I think maybe she was like a little bit more like accepting.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I get it now.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we do pre-season, mid-season, and end of the season evaluations.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's good.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: They answer questions about their strengths and weaknesses.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: The coaches answer questions about that specific dancer's strengths and weaknesses, and we have a meeting.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I always do a meeting with their like big or little with them.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not just me and the dancer, there's other dancers there, so then they can hear it.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then they rate themselves, they know, oh man, I need to work on my turns or I need to work on my extensions or whatever it is, so they know throughout the season what they really need to work on.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's good.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, I always say lack of communication is filled in with negativity.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to communicate, you have to let them know where they are, and that's really sounds like you're doing a great job with that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, if if they're talking to each other one another one after and supporting one another, that's one of the coolest things ever, you know.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a I had a story.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: You've watched the movie Rudy, I'm sure.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I had a situation where we were at sections, and in our state at the time, the top four teams would advance to state.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we competed and we ended up getting fourth, so barely making it.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we knew, okay, if we want to do well at state, we got to change some things.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I watched a lot of film, and one girl kept standing out over and over to me, and she was a senior, and I think I was I had put her in because she was a senior, and when I watched it, you know, I was I I knew I had to take her out, and that was on a Saturday.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: We competed on Sunday.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I called her at home and I just said, This is a tough conversation, but you know, I'm gonna have to take you out of the lineup.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I told her why, and she cried a little.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I cried a little.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I felt bad, but on Monday, I will never forget it that I walked into our school and I could hear her helping the kid that was taking her spot.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: She was like, Okay, no, in this part, you're gonna go over here and you're gonna line up behind this, then you're gonna move here.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, that's teamwork, that's the ultimate culture in teamwork.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so proud of her.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I still to this day, you know, am so proud of her that she took she put the team over herself.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when it comes to alternates, that's an important thing to think about.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think coaches need to do better with alternates?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like at what's something they could do at their next practice to help turn it around?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Just constantly keep encouraging those that are alternates and make sure you like find a way to compliment them in front of the team.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just say, I see your improvement.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're really taking that risk, you're really pushing yourself, you know, like those types of things, like constant encouragement, because they need to hear a great job too.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like either more so.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then what's pretty cool with my team is you know, some are alternates in one dance, but not in another dance.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, so sometimes they know like, oh, kick really isn't their thing.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: But in the team dance, they can, you know, so that kind of thing, like I try what when we choose the team, we hope that at least someday down the line they'll be in at least one of the dances that we do at competition.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Cause that that's so true.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we do kick and jazz on our team.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at our studio, we do everything hip hop, you know.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: But for for our state association, and I have kids that are super great at jazz, they can turn like a top, but they maybe can't kick as well, you know.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it is it you hope that they get in and won.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, have you ever had like I have, so that's why I'm asking the question, a senior that didn't get in and kind of becomes a cancer.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a senior, I've had a three-year dancer never see the national's floor, and it's heartbreaking.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is absolutely heartbreaking, but um I think she knew and her family knew that she didn't put in the extra work that it would have taken for her to get into the formation, and I I was in enough years to know like I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm pushing, I'm encouraging, I'm really trying to get this dancer in.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um she didn't not end up being a cancer, thank God.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she enjoyed the heck out of the experience being on the team and still getting those senior privileges of being the senior dance show and getting those types of things.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm very thankful.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, I have not had anybody that ended up being a cancer.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it's hard.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh both, you know, I think that's really neat.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: You must be doing something really right.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I have had some experiences where they didn't get in, and then it would almost have been better had they not been on the team.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't feel that way.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I would love them there, but sometimes it gets really hard.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know I have a coaching friend that's always like, I want the kids dancing somewhere.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you have a J in Minnesota, a lot of teams have B squad, JV, and varsity.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're like, there's movement back and forth between JV and varsity, and and if the senior's not making the cut on on varsity, let's put her on JV and make have her dance, you know, because but but sometimes they don't want to be there, but they need to in order to be, you know, contributing to the to the team.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So have you had a situation where where an alternate gets an opportunity and then they get in and they maybe aren't they weren't ready, or have you not had that happen?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I've had them like kind of freeze, get a little nervous, that type of thing, but then that's a part of the growing and learning process.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: I try to do that at like not as important competitions, like more of the local kind of competitions, and then that way they can at least get their feet wet and and that type of thing.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if someone's if someone gets sick last minute, I gotta put someone in, uh, it's just a troubleshoot.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like you just go in, like, because we don't really want to leave any holes.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even said yeah, we had one competition, or actually, it was at a home performance.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, it was at a show, and we had somebody get sick and leave.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, seriously, we do three shows in a row, so it was between two shows, and there was no time to practice.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And because we do like one at noon, one at three, one at seven at night, but somebody got the flu and left, and we put her in, and we still our team's called the kicksters, we still call it the lone kickster because, like, if we went right, she went left.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was like it was like everything that could go wrong went wrong.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it um, and I felt so sorry for her because here she was just trying to do it for the Team, but she hasn't had time to be in there.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it is if you've always been on one side and you get switched to the other side, it gets very confusing.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be kind of like in football, going from offense to defense, or or worse, worse, actually.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any like can you think of a situation that you would have handled differently or that you mishandled that you've learned the hard way, you would never do that again, or that's kind of putting you on the spot?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: The thing with that is when you think you mishandled an alternate, you know, a decision, you just gotta own it.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: I was wrong.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and when you own it up, you knew you own it, own, you know, like you own it and you talk to the other coaches about like we made this decision, that type of thing.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Last year when I put in the the um one year when I put in one over the other, the coaches kind of disagreed with me.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we've had that with our coaching staff, yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like they kind of disagreed with me.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately, if I'm the head coach, I have to make the decision, own it, and then I'm just responsible for anything that backlash comes out afterwards.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just own it, but we've been pretty lucky.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of times when we have put in alternates or put in different people and and didn't win, that wasn't the reason why.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right we didn't win.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was uh way other factors that let a lot of times the other team is better than us, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's fine, that's wonderful.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like we sub, you know, we support, we clap for the other team if they end up winning, which is that's how it's supposed to be.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, team spirit and being a great sport is something you teach as well.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and that's great with a strong program.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um, how do you recognize an alternate's progress when she still hasn't gotten in?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of talked about that a little bit, but just rec just like a lot of praise.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of lots of individual praise, and then still talking about it like after practice, like pulling them aside and say, Hey, you're almost there.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like sometimes I pull them aside.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, look, you're working hard, you're next one in.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're you're the next guy in if something happens, if someone's injured or someone gets sick, or if someone's not pulling their weight, you're the next person to go in.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it happened last year before Nationals.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: One of the other young ladies who was in formation, she had a season ending injury, pulled a hammy.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing worse.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was horrible.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: I felt terrible for her.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: She, you know, she was in the routine.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: We we put someone in, and it, you know, it ended up working out great.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I mean, yeah, just keep encouraging them.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think your dancers do to keep the kids and the other kids encouraged?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you lean on your captains or your seniors to help keep the other ones motivated?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, well, almost every single dancer was a backtracker at one point.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: Their first year, a lot of times they're backtrackers when they first start as freshmen.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so they've all been in those shoes before.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I've never had a freshman come in and they're like top dog.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, boom, front and center first year.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Most most every time the freshman or new members, whether they're a sophomore, junior, or senior, they're normally a backtracker.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so they know exactly what it feels like and know how hard they have to work to get into formation.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so they can talk to them, hey, I was just there.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: I know what it's like.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't choose.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: I know exactly what it's like.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Don't give up, keep working, it gets easier.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: And hopefully next year you'll have a spot with a backtracker.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think you mentioned early on something about big, big sister, little sister.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do a lot of that?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: We do that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: This year we have 16 members, which is our smallest team we've ever had in history, but we have eight seniors.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: So we have eight bigs and eight littles.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually worked out really great because all of my seniors are returning members.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I have some new seniors, but they're doing so many things together as big littles that they're just making a huge really nice family.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is cool.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that really helps.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: So have you had um alternates get discouraged and quit?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would assume.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, I haven't.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: I've had to talk to dancers at the the end of the season.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um a couple times.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've talked to some dancers for different reasons at the end of the season and say, look, next year I don't see you being in the routines.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then they decide for themselves not trying out.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or I've had some honestly, like some troublemakers where I would tell them, look, you know, you're not keeping up with our team culture.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so it might be a good idea for you not to try out again.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm not sure you would make it.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so then they just opt out of being on the team, which that's their decision.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so they wouldn't have to go through that through the heartbreak of going in front of the judges and all those kind of things.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because we take those things into consideration at tryouts.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, it's a lot of money to be on the team, right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Your parents are putting all this money out, and then you're not not in formation, it's tough.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's really a hard balancing act.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: It really is, as a coach.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you're doing it really well.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, so you haven't had parents who really go after you and want their kid in a spot.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're lucky.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're lucky, yeah.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because also at the parent meeting in the past, I've not said this lately, but I sometimes have had to tell them, look, you do your job the way you think it works best.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Let me do my job so that I know what works best for the team.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And just trust me with your children because I love them all, like they're my own children.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I promise by the end of the experience, they'll have a lot of life lessons and they'll learn how to how to dance and things like that.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: But the life lessons they learn from our program will take them really far.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: So just try to trust me.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I like changed someone's spot one year.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the mom was a little upset with me because I moved her child from you know one spot to another, like one spot over, and the mom was like, I I don't know why she did that.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then after we did our dance routine for competition, after it was all over, she came up to me and she's like, Oh, I see why you did that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then she was like, Okay, I you know, I was kind of second guessing you at first, but I trust you did the right thing.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, that's my job.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's big of you of her to admit, you know.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she did.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: She admitted it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and sometimes we have to move kids around, like, say it's kick and they're in the kick line and their kicks aren't as high, we'll move them down the kick line, take them right out of the front, you know.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely, yeah.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Each time that we do a competition or uh a big performance, we do something we call dance-offs.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and so if we have a competition, say on Saturday or Sunday that weekend, we'll do dance-offs at a Wednesday practice and where they have to, you know, we'll do like four or five people at a time on the stage, we'll film them and they have to dance next to their backtracker.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: On video.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll watch the video and we'll see who's the best.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then on Thursday at practice, we'll put the person that we think is gonna be in for the weekend.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of like, oh, we're having dance offs Wednesday for the weekend.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure you're ready, this, that, and the other thing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And when they see the video, they're like, Oh my gosh, yep, she hit that, she hit her turns way better than I did.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: She deserves to be in.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's that's interesting.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I like how you do that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like um on our team, choreography, like we just we have a season that's very short in Minnesota.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we will start next Monday, and we're already competing on November 21st.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: So two routines, jazz and kick, and they're pretty high level.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're very high level, Cynthia.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, they are.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: They are so like we don't have it's like I used to try out before every home event and everything.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I used to, and I tell that to my daughter and my assistant coaches, and they're like, How did you have time?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, it was different back then, where now we just are like going on, we're just going, we're practicing.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, literally practice six days a week, and it's still hard to get it all done, you know.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, parent meeting the other night, and one of our parents said, Well, just know because I said, Seniors, what what is something the rookie parent should know?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And she just said, Goodbye to being gone on Thanksgiving or or Christmas break because you guys practice over all of it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, we do.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we've three time state champions in a row, and that's partly why you can't you can't have it all.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's a trade-off, and you know, I just said too, like when my son played basketball, I do a bowl game every single Christmas.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he never got to go to the bowl game when he played basketball, except the year he broke his ankle.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, there's the trade-off, you know, he he had to be there for his team, he didn't get to go with us to Florida, which he would have loved to do every Christmas, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: But he was home practicing, so there is a trade-off, and I think parents need to buy into your culture, and ours do, ours are great, so but it's good to remind them of that.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, it's not it's not easy.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: If it was easy, everybody'd be doing it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody would so have you ever had a time when an alternate just quit trying in the back, then what'd you do?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yes, I I have, and basically I just explained to her that you know, you're gonna have to, yeah, you're gonna have to give more effort, and then basically she just didn't dance.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like she just wasn't in formation any of the time, and until she like until she like just had to sit out with me during basketball games and and whatnot.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then that was one of the reasons why I told her not to try out the next year.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, I get it.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she didn't, you know, some of the kids have the ability, they just don't have the work ethic.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're just they're not that into it.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's too hard for them.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's too hard, exactly.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and I mean, if if you really want to dance and you really want to be a part of the team, you'll stick with it.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the dancers, if they don't come back or if they just, you know, if they quit, it's because sometimes they would rather be the top dog at their studio.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh they would rather be front and center at the studio than on a team.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I tell the parents that this is not you're you're you're not paying money to be in the front of the formation at your local dance studio, which is all fine and good, but we're a team.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so we do everything for the team.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: If the captain of the team is in the back row, so be it.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: So be it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's how that's how it works.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think sometimes kids and possibly parents think that seniority should be the spot, not ability.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I see it in every you know, in volleyball or in basketball or you know, everything.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it isn't seniority, it's who can do the job the best.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: So and we and we want to win.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are there to win.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not a recreation team.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to win some trophies.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Not the trophies mean that much, the you know, it's the experience along the way, but but still, if we're trying to win and they really want that jacket, then they're gonna have to put in the work.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is neat to hear.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: The younger coaches, they go through hardships and instead of asking for help, they just give up and quit.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we need them because we're me and you, we're not gonna be coaching forever.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can't do this our whole life.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: No, I want to, but this is yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel that now more than ever, there's a network to support coaches, and like I mentioned, North Dakota, that's what's going on there, is people they aren't getting the longevity because people quit.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: I do think it's a challenging time to be a new coach because there's just more parent involvement than there used to be.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I feel maybe not, I don't know, but but um there are people, there are resources, new coaches, and there are people that will help you be in it for the long haul.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that you brought that up.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, you raise your kids coaching.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I raised my kids.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: I had one on each hip when I was coaching, so it's doable.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it helps if you have a supportive uh spouse.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, it is hard.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: It is hard, it is it is difficult.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm hoping that I and I'm part of the NDCA mentor program because I helped that's awesome.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so hopefully we can get these new coaches to come in and stay, would be what yes.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: New that's great for everyone to know.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, gosh, I've really enjoyed having you on here, and I hope to have you on again sometime.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going to NDCA this spring?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping to.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping to.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I I think that I will be.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you you were on um the University of Central Florida.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know Kathy Kirsten down there?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Stephanie.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Kathy Kirsten was her husband did the marching band show when I was on Lake Mary.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: He does the flags at the bowl game that I uh so her daughter is the head coach of Lake Mary, where I went to high school.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Stephanie Kirsten.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Stephanie, okay.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I and I know Stephanie, so I was so mixed up.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: So Stephanie actually, I graduated from Lake Mary in '89, and her dad wrote the drill for Lake Mary.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because we marched with the band, and Stephanie was on the sidelines watching me when I was captain.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so neat.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is a small world, and everybody is so connected in the dance world.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So well, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with all these younger coaches that ask these questions on the dance coaches and teachers unite Facebook.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's where this came from, I think.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: That people were like and you answered that you do this.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: We make the rhythm.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: We co we create the routine.