Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 827: Misogyny And Trauma with Christine Forner

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Episode 827: Misogyny And Trauma with Christine Forner · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Therapist Podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
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Therapist Podcast and signing up today or welcome back to the Trauma Thepist podcast.
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My name is Gamiferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible
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selves, to be human, to be real, not just a clinician.
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I'm a big believer in who we are is more important than what we know,
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and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires
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intention. Can learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma
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Therapist Project dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get
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started, all right. So five four, three, two and one our
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folks, welcome back. I am very excited to have back. Christine Foreigner,
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Christine, welcome back. Bye, Thank you guys. It's really nice
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to be back. Awesome. So, Christine has over thirty years of clinical
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experience offering effective and distinctive counseling. For the past twenty years, she's specialized
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in working with individuals with trauma, post traumatic stress disorders, traumatic association,
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developmental trauma associated disorders and the effects of stress on the physical, emotional,
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mental, and imaginative aspects of our beings. Christine is a contributing author in
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a and Correct me if I'm wrong. It's soon to be published, soon
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to be published, to be published book. It's called Behind the Curtain Women
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Therapists Get Real About Healing Trauma. And that's by Susan PA's Bannett. Yeah
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that's the editor. Yep, okay, the editor. So welcome back.
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Ye do remind our listeners maybe who didn't catch one of the previously is where
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you're from originally and where you are currently. I'm originally from Calgary, Alberta,
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Canada, and I'm currently in Alberta, Canada. This is my home
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and it's very chilly today. It's why I have this sweater on it.
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Okay, I think I think it's thirty five below right now? What that's
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celsius. No, No, it's only on minus twenty eight. Oh my
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god, do you I don't know that that's probably that's I don't know what
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that is in fahrenheit. Oh my god. Do you have snow? Yeah?
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Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah you do. Jesus. Yeah,
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we were very mild up until two days, getting a little concerned, and
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then you know, careful what you wish for. It's very cold and it'll
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be cold for the next couple days. But that's a normal Canadian winter up
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here. Okay, okay, I can't complain, I guess all right,
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So well, let's start talking about this book and then we'll I want to
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segue into uh, you have a workshop on associations called Associating Association one oh
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one that's coming up in March, and we'll talk about that. We'll have
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that linked up. Talk to us about this book, how you got involved,
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and so forth. From my understanding, I know Susanne or Susan from
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the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Association, and she was watching
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one of those big conferences that get sold online with all these major headliners,
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and she realized that a vast majority of them were men, and a vast
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majority were sort of kind of all saying the same thing. So she reached
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out to sorry for the rumbling. It's my dogs are chewing on bones to
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make sure that they don't bark and be really loud. So if it's other,
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I'll figure something out. But we're pet friendly here awesome, and she
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approached me and said that it was just really upsetting that there was no real
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strong feminist voice, and I was like, well, I'm your goal.
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My original training back in the nineties was a women's studies degree, so I
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would have had I graduated in ninety five, so I would have been one
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of the first years that of people who were graduating with a women's studies degree.
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Ever, because the women's studies degree started showing up in the mid to
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late eighties, and then you need three or four years to graduate, so
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I would have been in the class, the third class, fourth class,
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something like that. So my original training is in women's studies. And then
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I started specializing in dissociation, and then I started specializing in mindfulness. And
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I also at the time started coming up around that same time with a theory
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of the origin of misogyny and patriarchy that was unlike anything else based on what
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I know from the field of dissociation in the field of mindfulness, and so
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I jumped at the opportunity to start writing out or thesis I've been developing,
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or a hypothesis that I've been developing, and so this is I wrote the
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chapter I think in January twenty twenty one, so it's been like three years
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since I've written that, and I've written quite a bit more since then.
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I've thought this out a lot more. I've been interviewed to quite a few
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times about this, and I think I'm really onto something. And so I
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remember our last conversation was right at the beginning of COVID, and you said
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to me, you know, Christine, you really say things I've never heard
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before. And I think it's because of the weird combination of understanding dissociation,
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understanding mindfulness, all sitting on a foundation of feminist theory. So you know,
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yeah, it is weird. It's really weird. So I can I
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think we all can resonate with what Susan said regarding her observation of you know,
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these these online summits and yeah, we see the same people, not
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to take away from them, but we see the same people oftentimes. So
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she said, a lot of them are saying the same thing. And she
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and then we're going to I want to contrast that with what you're learning.
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What are they saying? Well, you know, you have very typical Bessel
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van der Koork Vanda Kolk. We can never ever, ever dismiss the contribution
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that that man has had to the world. Much of what I've built my
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theory on is the information that came from him. You know, he's talking
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about trauma is in the body, and that in order to heal this stuff,
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we really need to have safety in others. This is a theory that
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sort of gets shared by Gorgeous his infant. His poly bagel theory supports this
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as well. The attachment theory supports this as well. But there's never really
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a stopping and a pausing of talking about the misogyny of all this of human
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trauma. There's never a pause and going, wait a minute, where did
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that come from. It's just sort of this grand global assumption the human violence
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is normal, and it isn't. There's not an ounce of it that is
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normal. It's been normalized, but neurophysiologically, neurobiologically it isn't. That's why
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we experienced trauma. Like if really, if we were designed to be in
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this kind of world and to be raised these ways, it wouldn't bother us.
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So let me just pus you there. It is so clear, So
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you're saying that what hasn't even been taken into consideration is the misogyny and how
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that the effect with the impact that is having, yes, be more specific.
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Okay, so most people make the assumption and it's what misogyny is defined
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at is the hatred of women. I've actually taken a step further back and
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added human attachment, human trauma, and human mindfulness into that. And what
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I actually see misogyny as is the phobia and the stain of human nurturing.
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Another language is the disdain of human regulation and coregulation and self regulation. We
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don't get it, we don't understand it, and we punish it often or
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in many cases rape it and murder it. When it comes really down to
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how common femicide is, when you really take a look at how common sexual
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assault is, when you take a look at how common childhood sexual abuse is,
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it's mind boggling common. And we don't really ask the question where does
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it come from? We just assume that it's just here and it's normal,
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so we don't even take a look at Okay, so misogyny, which is
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about eight to ten thousand years old, we don't really know where it comes
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from. There's some theories. I have some theories, but it clearly popped
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up about ten thousand years ago. Rene Eisler, she wrote the book Chalice
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and the Blake. She does a great job of describing this historically and through
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archaeology and anthropology, and clearly there is something really wonky that happened five or
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ten thousand years ago. And then violence started to happen, and then empires
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started to happen, wars started to happen, All of these things started to
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happen post whatever misogyny is and how we can trace misogyny is, the art
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changed. There was no army for fortifications. Now all of a sudden,
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there's army fortifications. The symbolism started to change where instead of women being the
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same size, are a little bit larger, they became smaller or invisible or
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absolutely gone. You can really see that there was a drastic change in how
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we functioned about ten thousand years ago. My question is what was that?
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Why was that? I've been very curious about this my whole adult life.
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And it's so strange because all trauma therapists are the big trauma therapis. We'll
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talk about how important safe relationship is. They'll really talk about psychodynamic psycho psychoanalytic
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notion of having that safe person reflecting and not judging you. That's pretty cool
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when we start getting into the really complex and dissociative stuff. So how is
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it that the thing that seems to heal us, this nurturing relationship isn't talked
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about in psychology schools. It isn't talked about in psychiatry. It isn't considered
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to be anything when you consider, like what CBT is, CBTs being the
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most common. I actually I was going to go to school. I was
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going to school to get become a neuroscientist. I went to get my master's
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in applied neuroscience. I couldn't stand it. I couldn't stand what they were
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teaching. It was so awful, it was so antiquipated. It was all
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CBT all about how thinking is so like the be all and end all of
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us as a species, and it isn't Specially when you start going into the
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world of trauma and association, you start to recognize that thinking goes out the
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window when we start to become extremely traumatized. So to me, I'm like,
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okay, so we know in the trauma world that being nurturing actually helps
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this stuff. Why doesn't the rest of the world know this? And I
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think that's misogyny. I think that's because there is such a disdain and phobia
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against human nurturing that we don't even really know what it is anymore, that
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we couldn't even possibly recognize how we used to be before the advent of misogyny.
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Mindfulness is where we start to get clues on what that would have been
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like, but not the mindfulness that people are talking about, because the mindfulness
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that people are talking about is the patriarchal version of mindfulness. So what do
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I mean by patriarchy. A lot of people will say that it's the social
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organization by men for men, and we exclude women from it. I actually
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think that patriarchy is better understood as a very small group of psychopaths making the
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world in their image, so that both men and women. Most humans are
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not psychopathic, right. There might be a few who are psychopathic adjacent,
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meaning that they have the traits, but it's not innate. It's not the
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brain damage that seems to happen with people who are born psychopathic. These are
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people who are made right, and so that comes from a traumatic experience that
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comes from a traumatic childhood that comes from lack of nurturing, that comes from
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misogyny. So in a world that has been entirely traumatized, the people who
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do the best are the worst of us, the psychopaths. They're the ones
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who have made the rules. They're the ones who've made capitalism. They're the
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ones who've made our politics. They're the ones who've made our education systems.
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They're the ones who've made everything in their image. And we are all born
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and raised to think that that is just amazing to be aloof and unemotional and
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devoid of the dependency on other people. They're moving on to their second treats.
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And when a human is traumatized and there's no nurturing afterwards, we're going
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to be messed up. We're going to be emotional all over the place.
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Because human trauma is pain. It's pain and suffering that is not tended to.
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So another thing that I like to say is that trauma isn't actually the
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event. Trauma is the lack of nurturing after the fact. If that nurturing
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comes, we're not going to be traumatized. If the nurturing doesn't come,
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we will be because the body will get stuck in the active defenses that we
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experience as a species. So there's a paper I can send it to because
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it's open access, but it's basically fear in the cascade defenses, and it
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really talks about how different cascade defenses active or inactive affects everything inside of us.
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And a lot of the research from the field of dissociations supports this.
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That the brain, certain brain areas turn off, other brain areas are become
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hyper aroused when they're supposed to be normal. So if we go into a
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active state of lee, for example, the front brain structures turn off,
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the back brain structures turn on, so we're hyper effectively aware, we're feeling,
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aneking, terrified. If we go into an inactive state of dissociation,
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everything gets shut down. The front brain becomes hyper aroused, so we think
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a lot, but we don't feel. All the feeling stuff gets cut off
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or anesthetized by the narrow chemistry and the nearro electricity. The thalamus, which
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is an organ that is supposed to amalgamate our sense perceptions, so what we
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see, what we hear, what we feel, what we smell all goes
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into a cohesive narrative. When we dissociate, that gets scattered, so what
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we see, what we hear gets separated. This is probably what auditory and
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visual hallucinations are. There are bits and pieces of data that aren't connected to
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anything else. And so when we go into these emergency responses, underneath all
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of them is a very active central nervous system. It's inflame, it's on
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fire, it's a live wire, and it hurts. Dissociation is the narrow
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chemistry we use to stop that pain from being processed. Not that we're not
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feeling it, we're not aware that we feel it. So this is this
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is sort of where the let world of dissociation and mindfulness start to really bash
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up, because mindfulness is about awareness. Dissociation is about no awareness. So
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when we move into these places, it's really hard to come out. So
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when you go into this numbed place, you're not really feeling what you're feeling,
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you're not really knowing what you're knowing, you're not processing, you're not
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putting the pieces together. When we start to heal, we start to feel
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I know that sounds really corny because I know it rhymes, but the truth
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is when we start to heal, when our bodies innately, naturally start to
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try and get us out of these emergency states. We're going to start to
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feel things, and we're going to start reacting. This has been called mental
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illness in our worlds. In a patriarchal, misogynistic world, natural responses get
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seen as unnatural as psychopathic people they don't feel, and when they start to
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heal and start to feel, they go and hurt people in order to not
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feel. But the rest of us feel it. We start to fall apart.
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It gets me buckling, painful, but we get told that's wrong and
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bad, when actually it's super healthy. What really is missing when it comes
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to the world of trauma is how we get people out of this beginning phase
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of feeling and knowing to a place of absolute resolution, the nurturing place.
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And that's what is missing in this world, is how we utilize our innate
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nurturing capacities to help people out of this. All right, pass here for
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a second. We're speaking with Christine Forener. Pause second to thank our sponsors.
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So Christine, this is fascinating. Every time I talk to you,
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I'm like, damn this, this topic and subject of misogyny. How does
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that play into the treatment process? All of our natural ways of healing are
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denied, dismissed, disliked, treated is suspicious, treated is not effective,
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as bad wrong, So it sabotages all treatment because we're not we're taught.
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We're taught to try to fix things from a psychopathic perspective, not to fix
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things from a nurturing, non misogynistic, non patriarchal perspective, and so most
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of the time it will work because we're trying to get people to behave like
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psychopaths rather than the humans that we are. Be more specific in terms of
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treatment modalities, interventions, so all of cognitive behavioral therapy is the belief that
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you have to change, if you change your thinking, if you change your
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perspective, everything is going to be okay. That is undeniably false. The
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needs that we have if we have been traumatized is to be assisted in just
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the right way. And that's the hard part of us figuring out what is
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the right way, but in just the right way to assist that human to
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work through what the body's doing to heal. So, for example, if
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you go into an active state of defense like flight, you're going to be
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flooded with neurochemistry and neroelectricity that is powerful and strong, and this is all
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the PTSD HPA access all that kind of stuff. The neurochemistry that gets secreted
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out of the body not only gets secreted in the gut and the bloodstream,
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it also gets secreted out of our bone marrow. So it's in our saline
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solution, these powerful, toxic, strong chemicals that are all about doing something
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to survive in near death experience. To come out of that, that chemistry
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has to get out of our body because it's in our sale solution. Right,
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We're not going to be able to pee or pooped out these chemicals.
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Like if it was just in our gods, we would, if it was
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just in our bloodstream, we would, But it's in everything, in our
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skin, in our hair, it's in everything, and that has to get
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out. And the way that it gets out is by crying, falling,
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shaking, emoting loudly. Right, So what happens if you go into a
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therapist's office and you sit down and you start going, that's going to get
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shut down real quick fast. The therapist isn't comfortable with it, and the
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world isn't terribly comfortable with it. But that's what we need and instead of
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everybody pulling and shutting it down like we are taught, taking your perspective like
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we are taught, what's really needed is the therapist has to move in and
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dial in to that person and figure out what does this body need to feel
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slightly safer while it's expressing incredible wordless pain. Our job is to co regulate
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that person in front of us, not to dismiss it. The way that
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DBT is now, I don't think this is the way Marshall Anahan had it
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planned, but the way that it's been transferred now in the masses, it's
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all about avoidance, all about distraction. Let's distract you to not think about
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this. Let's get you thinking about something else, and that's avoidance. And
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for a lot of humans that's re enactment because we were little and having these
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original upsets, however we were met in those upsets is how we learn to
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meet ourselves and how other people will meet us. So, for example,
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you freak out like this as a kid in a very very course of the
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controlling home or a home with a psychopath, that's going to get shut down
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real quick by being hit, being ignored, being punished, being shamed all
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of those kind of things. So teach that person to take that neurochemistry of
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fight or flight and shame at ourselves. We're not teaching people how to old
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space, slow down, how to ourselves become mindful to help that person work
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through the large emoting affect. People with the associations like d ID, they're
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not very demonstrative. It's really hard to tell what's going on inside of them
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because the inside is like making those sounds, but the outside is very flat.
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What we have to do is try to help people learn how to feel
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safe expressing it so they're not going to get in trouble. That's the tons
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of nurturing goes into this of paying attention and attuning and being with and not
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getting scared, not reacting to that person's terror on misogynistic, non patriarchal way.
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Is figuring out how this person can freak out however they want to,
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in a safe place where they're scaffolded, and not us immediately calling the ambulance
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or trying to give pillars sorry, or trying to get them pills. So
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are we talking about the sematic modalities we hear about. Sematic modalities are very
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good, but I mix my somatic modalities with something that me and three other
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women, So I know, you know Lisa Danilchuck, I don't know if
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you know Rachelle Sharp, Laurrasby, I think she's been on your show before.
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There's another woman named Marie Danguard. So the four of us got together
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and I was trying to describe all that I've learned about mindfulness and that mindfulness
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is really actually true mindfulness is more about secure attachment than it is about the
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Buddhist understanding of mindfulness. Mindfulness really is a way for one human being to
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understand what's happening inside the body of another human being. I think true absolute
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mindfulness is the language of the Homo sapien mother. And for her to be
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in that state all the time for her offspring, she needs to be kept
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safe and secure. That means food, secure, environment, secure, relational
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secure. Everything has to be secure so that she can give all her attention
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to her offspring. So I was talking to Lisa and Rachelle and Marie and
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I was like, what can we call this? And so we're throwing around
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names and Lisa goes, what about securefulness? So Lisa, Marie, Rochelle,
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and I came up with the words securefulness, and Lisa and I have
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actually written about it, and I sort of write about it in Now.
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I write about it in quite a few things that the therapist, if they're
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in a self nurturing state of securefulness, that itself is going to start the
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healing process because that person's in foods in front of you, there's central nervous
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is and it's going to recognize that the person in front of them is safe
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and secure, and the dissociation is going to go away, The emergency responses
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are going to go away, and whatever underneath them are going to come out
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seeking care. So a lot of times when we're working with clients and we
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notice that they're doing well, doing well, and then all of a sudden,
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like they're not, and we see that as regression, my understanding of
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it is actually that's progression that they're starting to feel that this is my but
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these are my experiences. Oh my god, I didn't know it was that
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bad, because dissociation makes it so that we don't know it's that bad.
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The emergency responses make it so that we don't know how bad it is.
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And when we start to realize how bad it is we're going to start to
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freak out a lot, and healing people is supporting them in your secureful state,
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trying to teach them how do you become self aware and then nurture However,
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you need to be nurtured in a way that gets you to a place
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where your central nervous system is happy again. Right, the central nervous system
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is born and raised to be happy. Y's not designed to be dysregulated.
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As you're speaking, I can hear the difference between a lot of what is
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talked about in terms of the treatment of trauma, different modologies and interventions and
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so forth. This is very interesting to me. So are you can people
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learn about this through writings you've done? Yeah, I can send There's a
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couple of articles that I can write about. Most of the writing, I'm
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still sort of I've been hammering out the theory of misogyny and patriarchy from a
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trauma lens, which I think, like even the most wisest of feminists,
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they are not trauma informed like. We really do not talk about dissociation like
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ever, and associations are the most common problem. It's what all children do.
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Everybody is associating, and we have to be dissociating pretty intensely in a
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patriarchal, misogynistic world. We have to be, because it's just you can't
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be fully aware of how awful it is, especially if you don't know how
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to manage regulate that awareness. Mindfulness is one of our backup plans that helps
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us regulate ourselves no matter what. But it's kind of hard to regulate yourself
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if you're experiencing course of control, if you're trying to you know, if
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you're dealing with a lot of financial stress, if you know, I can
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give a million hundred examples of how difficult it is to be in this world
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and be aware. So a lot of my writing is about the theory of
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that. Treatment is something I'm going to be teaching a lot more. I
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mean, I'm teaching a class in March about dissociation one oh one sort of
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covers the field of dissociation, why you don't know about it, and what
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you can do from it, and then there's going to be treatment in the
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afternoon. And then I think I'm going to be doing another class in June
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about dissociation and mindfulness. It'll be online. Both of these are a webinar
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and then I think I'm looking at a date in September where people can actually
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come and it's going to be very much like a self help self improvement style
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of course, where I actually show people how to do this, because it's
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really hard to like, like, I can give people the theory, but
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if you don't actually do, you're not going to know what it is because
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doing is extraordinary different than the theory. I think most people have the theory,
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well, a lot of people theory. Well, no, let me
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change it. Some people have the theory. A lot of the trauma experts
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have the theory. Actually helping people, well, you stay present and learn
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the language of their upset, learn what they're upset is seeking and asking for,
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and learning how to supply those needs through a million different creative ways once
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the need is met, Once that person gets that need met, that the
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central nervous system is screaming for. So, if it's you know, hunger,
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we feed. If it's thirst, we drink. If it's cold,
29:07
we get warmth. If it's hot, we get cool. If it's fear,
29:12
we get safety. If it's terror, we get security. So how
29:17
do I offer this person the security that this fear is seeking. How do
29:22
I offer this person safety that the terror is talking about, And the world
29:29
of mindfulness or the world of securefulness really does teach the therapist how to speak
29:33
the language of terror while they're safe. And for a lot of times,
29:37
if somebody comes to you and they're terrified, and you're feeling secure in yourself
29:41
and safe in yourself and you're curious about what's going on with them instead of
29:45
getting frightened yourself, that curiosity and with the intuition and all the other stuff
29:51
that mindfulness does, is going to often give you like left field ballpark kind
29:56
of answers and solutions. Like you know, looking at someone and you notice
30:02
that their shoulders are way up high and they start to fidget, and you
30:06
ask the question, do you feel kind of exposed right now? Or do
30:07
you feel a little nervous right now? Which would be basic sensory, motor
30:11
or somatic kind of stuff. But this is adding into the nurturing state of
30:21
the therapist more as the rule in the therapeutic diad than the upset of the
30:27
client. So if you ask the question you look like you're feeling nervous,
30:33
it's because I can tell that they're nervous or feel it inside of me,
30:40
and then I say, okay, can we try this or that? Whatever
30:42
this or that is usually depends on do you want to pillow? Do you
30:45
want to wrap up? What does it feel like would be helpful right now?
30:48
And often they'll put a blanket on, or a hoodie on, or
30:52
a pillow in front of them, which protects their body or surrounds them.
30:55
Then you start asking sort of the questions do you notice any difference? And
30:59
if you get it right the instantly the person will sort of say, yeah,
31:03
I feel different, But we got to be careful because safe isn't safe.
31:07
If you've never felt safe, if you've never not dissociated, all the
31:14
damage and fear and pain and suffering that's dissociated tend to come flying out,
31:19
which will make somebody dissociate more. As the EMDR is very well known for
31:23
this, EMDR can destroyed dissociative barriers. And if that person has no securefulness,
31:32
no scaffolding, nothing to hold the pain and suffering, then they're just
31:34
going to pop back into the response. So it really is I know,
31:45
I don't mean to be crass. If you understand securefulness, if you really
31:51
understand what mindfulness is if you yourself can find that state and then continue that
31:56
state when you're working with clients, healing does not become complex. It's very
32:00
very very very very hard, super duper counterintuitive, especially in this world.
32:07
But it's not complicated. It's and then you know, you sort of give
32:13
your clients the benefit of the doubt that every emotion is trying to tell you
32:16
something. Our job is to figure out how to hear it instead of trying
32:22
to get rid of it, trying to shame it or distract from it.
32:25
Well, I feel like we just scratch the surface of what this is.
32:32
So are you suggesting that the part of the treatment here requires or demands even
32:45
more of the therapist? Yes, then what we commonly know in terms of
32:52
some of the sematic modalities you mentioned, since you remotor or somatic. Yeah,
32:55
So when I first meet a new client, I will say things like,
33:00
I'm the one with the training. I'm the one who's had years learning
33:04
the language of affect, which is feelings. I'm the one that is being
33:09
paid here. I'm the one doing the work. Your job is to show
33:15
up. However you show up. I don't expect them to trust me,
33:21
but I trust them because I trust human physiology. I trust the human central
33:25
nervous system. I trust our evolutionary the way we evolved as a species.
33:34
That's what's working in the diad between me and the client. So everything that
33:39
that client shows me is a language, is a form of communication, and
33:45
you can't. Just like how children can't children incorrectly, clients can't client incorrectly.
33:52
I can therapize wrong because I know better. They don't, And I
33:59
think that approaching with this that their emotions actually are logical instead of illogical.
34:07
Somebody who's psychopathic does see emotion as illogical. Emotion what we typically call affect,
34:14
which is in our bodies, all the mechanisms for the effect of circuitry,
34:19
all the mechanisms for our sensory motor understanding. These things are fully developed,
34:23
or like nearly fully developed at birth. What we feel as adults is
34:28
what we feel as infants. In children. What is missing is the awareness
34:30
piece. And even as adults, when we experience a fair amount of emergency
34:36
cascade defenses, we can still be fairly aware of ourselves or other people.
34:40
People who are psychopathic don't. They don't have self awareness. They might know
34:45
how other people work, but they don't have awareness because they don't have the
34:49
capacity to do introception, and they also don't have empathy. Both of these
34:53
things give us data, tons of data about other people's experiences and us,
34:59
as a speci we're supposed to take that data and assist and help people when
35:04
they can't assist and help themselves, which is infancy or traumatize people. So
35:10
yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, no, So
35:15
the therapist being in a mindful state, not the client. The client will
35:21
over time start to become mindful if you are in this state, because that's
35:25
our baseline. It's hardwired into most of us. Well, what I'm doing
35:30
is I'm trusting that person in front of me that they're not here to mess
35:37
with me, that they're not manipulating me. If any of those things are
35:39
happening, that's because that person was taught to do that, not because they
35:45
want to do that. I trust you know, everybody who comes and sees
35:51
me, These are the hardest working human beings. This is all they think
35:52
about, this is all they're consumed with. So ever, saying somebody that
35:57
your treatment resistant is just insulting, terribly insulting, because humans are not treatment
36:04
resistant humans don't have enough nurturing. You give that person nurturing, you meet
36:09
their needs. If we had care centers that actually were designed to meet people's
36:15
needs. Not part of the DSM, not part of traditional psychology, not
36:19
tart part of traditional psychiatry that are expecting people to behave and act and look
36:23
like well functioning psychopaths. They never include all the damage that happens in the
36:30
wake of someone who's psychopathic. But the ideal of being this robotic, independent,
36:38
hardworking, fake it till you make it kind of person. Those are
36:43
all traits of psychopathy. Human beings are very emotional. We're very effectively driven.
36:49
We communicate through how we feel. You learn to speak that language using
36:53
securefulness, it becomes actually kind of easy. I know that sounds like,
37:00
but I don't have trouble with this population. Yeah, there's so much here
37:07
and I'm so excited to get this out there. Is this what you wrote
37:10
about in this book? There's a chapter. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in
37:16
the process, like you know, like everybody else, I'm a female living
37:21
in a misogynistic, patriarchal world. I was in a very very very coercively
37:25
controlling relationship for damn near thirty years first time I met him, I saw
37:30
him, and so it was hard for me to write. It was hard
37:34
for me to so I worked a lot to take care of my kids,
37:38
take care of my three kids, and it's just now in my early fifties
37:42
that I sort of have the space and the ability to write. So I'm
37:45
starting to write more about what this is. There's a couple podcasts, and
37:52
I'm even for the very first time, i have my own website that's dedicated
37:54
to me that I'm in the process of building. So I'm really trying to
37:59
get this information out because it's common sense, right right, Well, hopefully
38:05
this will this this episode will play at least a small part in that.
38:08
So how can people reach you. I'm gonna I'm going to send that to
38:15
it we can put that because I think it's Christine at Christinefourner dot com.
38:22
But that's a very new website, so I'll have to double check that,
38:25
but I'll yes, I have Christine Ferner dot com. I have that,
38:30
Yeah, yeah, okay, I will check on that. And then,
38:35
like I said, I'm teaching the course. I think it's March ninth online
38:38
and uh, I'll be you know, all of my classes will be up
38:43
on my website within the next probably thirty days. Okay, we'll have that
38:47
link up here at the show notes page at the Traumats podcast dot com.
38:51
Christine Damn as always welcome back anytime. Love talking to you and you're so
38:58
freaking inspiring. Thank you in here. Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome
39:01
anytime, all right, take care, Take care. B