Latest / The Real News Podcast / Oren Ziv: Israel Is Erasing the West Bank’s Boundaries

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Oren Ziv: Israel Is Erasing the West Bank’s Boundaries · The Real News Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Mark Steiner Show here on the Real News.
0:08
Speaker 1: I'm Mark Steiner. It's great to have you all with
0:10
Speaker 1: us as usual, and my guest today Orn Ziev has
0:13
Speaker 1: written an incredibly powerful piece called Erasing the Lines, how
0:17
Speaker 1: settlers are seizing new regions of the West Bank, and
0:20
Speaker 1: he's published in The Nation magazine and in Plus nine
0:23
Speaker 1: seven two. And Orang is a reporter, photographer, co founder
0:27
Speaker 1: of Acts Are Still Collective and since two thousand and
0:29
Speaker 1: five and I'm documenting social political issues in Israel Palestine
0:32
Speaker 1: and has joined us numerous times before and joined us
0:34
Speaker 1: once again with his new work.
0:36
Speaker 2: And Orn, welcome, good to have you with.
0:37
Speaker 3: Us, Thank you for having me.
0:39
Speaker 1: So it just to begin, as we talked before we
0:41
Speaker 1: start our conversation formally here, just to describe as in Israeli,
0:46
Speaker 1: as somebody living in the midst of all this madness
0:48
Speaker 1: taking place, what it's like and what change have taken
0:52
Speaker 1: place since the news even that you were just describing
0:55
Speaker 1: a moment ago to me.
0:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, so even since we published this article over a
1:00
Speaker 3: month ago about how Israeli settlers are taking over Area
1:04
Speaker 3: A and B areas that according to the Ostlo courts
1:08
Speaker 3: in the mid nineties, and even since we published the article,
1:13
Speaker 3: the Israel government had approved thirty four new settlements, many
1:17
Speaker 3: of them based on those kind of outposts or the
1:22
Speaker 3: outposts that are officially even illegal by Dieseli law, although
1:25
Speaker 3: they get all the support from the army, police and
1:28
Speaker 3: the government. Of course, settlers have continued their attack. Since
1:33
Speaker 3: the beginning of March, thirteen Palestinians have been killed in
1:36
Speaker 3: the West Bank doing settlers raid on Palaestina villages, some
1:40
Speaker 3: of them by civilians, some of them by settlers who
1:43
Speaker 3: serve in the army. And even while we're speaking, during
1:46
Speaker 3: the last twenty four hours, while Israeli is marketing its
1:50
Speaker 3: Independence Day, three Palestinians have been killed by settlers in
1:54
Speaker 3: two different incidents. So what we can see is that
1:56
Speaker 3: the situation is escalating. All the activities on the ground,
2:00
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if it's civilian settlers, if it's settlers who
2:02
Speaker 3: were recruited to the easily army to reserve duty. All
2:06
Speaker 3: this is pay very coordinated and working according to a
2:10
Speaker 3: plan of the Daisily government. They don't hide it, they
2:12
Speaker 3: say it openly and be supported by all the different authorities.
2:17
Speaker 3: From the simple soldier on the ground and in our
2:19
Speaker 3: investigation we also spoke to soldiers who served in the
2:23
Speaker 3: West Bank in the last two and a half years.
2:26
Speaker 3: Too high up to the government who give those settlers
2:30
Speaker 3: the tools to carry on these attacks, from the weapons
2:33
Speaker 3: to the ATVs they drive into Palestinian villages, and of
2:37
Speaker 3: course the facility is the outposts they establish.
2:41
Speaker 1: A couple of things here. I want to even though
2:44
Speaker 1: it's not directly in the article, which is really a
2:46
Speaker 1: very through an interesting piece, what is the connection between
2:51
Speaker 1: Israel attacking the West Bank at this moment and trying
2:54
Speaker 1: to seize territory and close things down, and what happened
2:58
Speaker 1: with Iran? What's the connection?
3:01
Speaker 3: So I think, as we saw after October seventh, theyasually
3:05
Speaker 3: settlers and of course also the government are taking advantage
3:08
Speaker 3: that the international attention, also the easily attention everybody attention
3:12
Speaker 3: is to something else, and they really know how to
3:16
Speaker 3: identify those moments and really escalate the situation and create
3:21
Speaker 3: facts on the ground. So, for example, after October seventh,
3:24
Speaker 3: really in the first days after it, before the genocide
3:29
Speaker 3: escalated in the way we've seen it. Afterwards, settlers have
3:33
Speaker 3: been pushing Platinian communities out. So they started with areas
3:37
Speaker 3: c that is under full is really controlling the Westpact,
3:40
Speaker 3: pushing herding communities, farmer communities on the open areas between
3:45
Speaker 3: Romala and the Jordan Valley and other areas. In they
3:49
Speaker 3: managed to force out around sixty or seventy communities. And
3:54
Speaker 3: what we've seen now doing the war against Iran is
3:59
Speaker 3: the same policy of escalating. In this situation, when nobody
4:03
Speaker 3: is looking to the West Bank, erecting new outposts, raiding
4:08
Speaker 3: Palestinian villages, killing it always come those outposts. It's the
4:13
Speaker 3: same method. Sometimes it happens in the course of a
4:15
Speaker 3: few months. Sometimes it's very fascinating, happens in a few days.
4:20
Speaker 3: But they established a new outpost, they prevent Palestinium from
4:24
Speaker 3: going out and raising with their sheeps, with their animals,
4:29
Speaker 3: and then they start invading to the houses, to the communities,
4:33
Speaker 3: stealing sheep, terrorizing the village. If it's a herding community,
4:37
Speaker 3: if it's a bedroom community. Many times they manage to
4:40
Speaker 3: force people out, even though those are refugees. Many times
4:44
Speaker 3: from the Knackaba from forty eight that had to relocate
4:47
Speaker 3: to the West Bank, they were forced to the West Bank.
4:49
Speaker 3: And many times it's a fourth or fifth time they're
4:52
Speaker 3: being displaced. If it's villages, they focus in the beginning
4:56
Speaker 3: of the outskirts of the village, taking over houses, farming area,
5:00
Speaker 3: making people afraid to go out, because we're talking about
5:03
Speaker 3: proper villages with houses, municipality, schools, buildings of sometimes thousands
5:08
Speaker 3: of people. And the settlers that they openly say it
5:12
Speaker 3: now they're targeting the big villages. And the idea is
5:17
Speaker 3: very similar to what Smottage Minister's Mottage spoke about, is
5:21
Speaker 3: that there will not be, of course a Palestinian state,
5:23
Speaker 3: that Israel will control all the area, and Palestinians will
5:26
Speaker 3: be concentrating six or so areas in the West Bank
5:31
Speaker 3: that are the big Palestinian cities, and settlers are taking
5:36
Speaker 3: this policy into action on the ground, forcing people to
5:41
Speaker 3: hide in their homes.
5:43
Speaker 1: I guess it was not necessarily article, but I'm really
5:46
Speaker 1: curious as to what the what should be actually inside
5:49
Speaker 1: of Israel. I mean, is there other movements of any size,
5:54
Speaker 1: moves of Israelis saying no to this action. What's the
5:58
Speaker 1: struggle like on the ground in Israel.
6:00
Speaker 3: So on the ground you have a very small group
6:03
Speaker 3: of running and left doing activists that protest this both
6:07
Speaker 3: inside Israel and more important also go and do protective
6:11
Speaker 3: presence in those communities, in those villages, together with international activists,
6:15
Speaker 3: together of course with Palestinian activists and the community organizers.
6:20
Speaker 3: They're doing something that is called protective presence, that is
6:24
Speaker 3: just being in places in communities that are being attacked
6:27
Speaker 3: again and again by settlers and the army, by army,
6:30
Speaker 3: with the settlers. By settlers followed by the army, they
6:33
Speaker 3: sleep there, they spend the nights and days there. In
6:35
Speaker 3: the past, that would help Placinia go out to the
6:38
Speaker 3: farming areas, to the open lands to graze their sheep.
6:42
Speaker 3: Nowadays it's more focusing on protecting the community, documenting, trying
6:46
Speaker 3: to call the police or the army, although many times
6:48
Speaker 3: they would come and arrest the Palestinians and the activists.
6:51
Speaker 3: And we know also it's effective because settlers and the
6:54
Speaker 3: police and army have been targeting those activists, arresting them,
6:58
Speaker 3: issuing close military areas that forced them not to be there,
7:01
Speaker 3: and then it's easier for the settlers to push Palestinian
7:07
Speaker 3: out and also targeting them physically. We've seen escalation in
7:11
Speaker 3: the recent months in the attacks in the past, Israel
7:14
Speaker 3: or internation. Activists had some kind of protection that settlers
7:19
Speaker 3: were afraid to attack them. And now we've seen in
7:22
Speaker 3: since the War of Gaza began an escalation that also
7:26
Speaker 3: they've been attacked, same as Palestinians. Just one day on
7:30
Speaker 3: the twenty seven of March, one day before the attack
7:33
Speaker 3: against Iran, to Israeli activist, one of them, fifty year
7:36
Speaker 3: old fifty one one seventy two, went to the village
7:39
Speaker 3: of coustaal And in Nablus to help Palestinian to go
7:42
Speaker 3: back to his house where settlers forced them out. And
7:46
Speaker 3: israel settlers on this famous ATV that the government gave them,
7:50
Speaker 3: came a mask with clubs and attacked them and injured
7:53
Speaker 3: them so badly Israeli medics had to take them with
7:57
Speaker 3: a helicopter to a hospital inside Israel. They fought almost dead.
8:01
Speaker 3: And of course even though the Israelis and it was
8:04
Speaker 3: widely published, even in Israeli media, who usually doesn't cover
8:07
Speaker 3: these kind of things, some settlers were arrested. You know,
8:10
Speaker 3: it's a very small outpust it's outputs in Area B.
8:13
Speaker 3: It's very easy to find who did it. Settlers were
8:16
Speaker 3: arrested for two or three days and then released. I
8:19
Speaker 3: contact the police just last week regarding this. Nobody's arrested,
8:22
Speaker 3: since nobody is held accountable, and of course this is
8:27
Speaker 3: not an isolated incident from this outpust later a postina
8:31
Speaker 3: was killed. Attacks against the villages around continue, and the
8:34
Speaker 3: army sometimes avicts the tent or the structure the settlers
8:38
Speaker 3: living off it, but a few hours later they built
8:41
Speaker 3: it again. And of course, as I said, it serves
8:45
Speaker 3: the easily official policy, because it's also convenient for the
8:49
Speaker 3: official Israel. For the arityes say no, these are settlers.
8:51
Speaker 3: It's not the official policy, but on the ground this
8:54
Speaker 3: is the official policy. Also, many many, many mainstream is
8:58
Speaker 3: rallies from the so called center left, the Zigoning center left.
9:02
Speaker 3: They might not like what settlers are doing. Definitely when
9:05
Speaker 3: there's like more extreme violence, they oppose it. But a
9:10
Speaker 3: lot of them and also the mainstream media separate between
9:14
Speaker 3: the extreme settlers and then like just the settlers in
9:16
Speaker 3: the West Bank and their leadership and the army and
9:19
Speaker 3: the police, and they refuse to see this one system.
9:22
Speaker 3: In the end of the day, they extreme, they so
9:24
Speaker 3: called extreme settlers, and the most violent one a few hundreds,
9:27
Speaker 3: so few thousands that are in the front line, attacking
9:30
Speaker 3: Palestine and killing them, pushing them out. They're serving the rest,
9:34
Speaker 3: but more important, they're getting back up because in the
9:37
Speaker 3: end of the day, each outpost have support from a
9:40
Speaker 3: nearby settlement that is legal according to the Israeli law.
9:44
Speaker 3: When they attack, they go out from a settlement, they
9:46
Speaker 3: come back. In many attacks we see more than five
9:49
Speaker 3: or ten settlers, We see dozens or even hundreds who
9:52
Speaker 3: come from all around the area, not just from illegal outposts,
9:55
Speaker 3: according to Diazely, but also from very well established settlement.
10:00
Speaker 1: The settlements that are in the West Bank you're talking
10:01
Speaker 1: about not necessarily.
10:03
Speaker 2: No, we're talking about the West Bank. When I read
10:06
Speaker 2: when we're talking.
10:07
Speaker 3: About outposts, it's it's settlements that were established by settlers
10:12
Speaker 3: without prior permission by Daysily government, that are authorized later.
10:17
Speaker 3: So at the time they're even illegal according to Diesel government.
10:21
Speaker 3: Of course they get the support from the army many
10:24
Speaker 3: times from the government, but they're illegal even according to
10:27
Speaker 3: Dazely law, and by time the government to recognize them fully.
10:32
Speaker 1: The one I mean I wish you explained to people
10:34
Speaker 1: listening to us, now, what when you describe the zones A,
10:39
Speaker 1: B and C what they mean, how they would ride
10:41
Speaker 1: and what they have to do directly with the oppression
10:43
Speaker 1: of the Palestinians in their land.
10:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. So.
10:47
Speaker 3: There also are courts signed by its Ra cabin and
10:49
Speaker 3: NAT in the mid nineties were supposed to be a
10:53
Speaker 3: path to a Palestinian state. Many argue today that this
10:56
Speaker 3: was never the intention and it was used basically just
10:59
Speaker 3: to expand the control over the West Bank. But I'll
11:01
Speaker 3: put it aside for the moment. In this agreement, there
11:05
Speaker 3: are free zones in the West Bank. One is Area
11:08
Speaker 3: See where the settlements are, the areas near the border
11:13
Speaker 3: with Israel, where many of the open areas are the
11:16
Speaker 3: Jordan Valley Maney of the agriculture areas, and these areas are,
11:20
Speaker 3: according to the Accurds, still are under full Israeli controlled
11:25
Speaker 3: both security wise and municipality and planning wise. Then you
11:29
Speaker 3: have Area B, which is under israel security control and
11:34
Speaker 3: under planning and municipality control civil control of the Palestinians.
11:38
Speaker 3: And then you have Area A the big cities Ramalah, Hebron,
11:41
Speaker 3: Lukara and Janine, Jerico, Nablus that there are supposedly under
11:46
Speaker 3: full Palestinian control, meaning the Palastinian police is there, the
11:50
Speaker 3: Palestinian governance is there. Of course Israelis there also courts
11:54
Speaker 3: and goes into this Palestinian areas Area A and conduct
11:57
Speaker 3: arrests and searches and other actions. Well, I'm talking about
12:00
Speaker 3: the agreement. It's important to say that in the future,
12:04
Speaker 3: all these should have been a Palestinian state. Now, as
12:07
Speaker 3: we hear from soldiers and settlers Area C, they decided,
12:10
Speaker 3: although you have hundreds of thousands of Platinians living in
12:14
Speaker 3: area seats, you know, the vast majority of the open
12:16
Speaker 3: areas in the West Bank is it A. Settlers in
12:18
Speaker 3: the army decided that area sees all Israelis. So the
12:21
Speaker 3: Placinas who live there under strict restrictions, house demolitions, searches, checkpoints,
12:27
Speaker 3: and they're not allowed to build without permit. So and
12:31
Speaker 3: in general Israeli is trying to push Placinas from Area
12:34
Speaker 3: C to Area B and A so they can annax,
12:38
Speaker 3: if not official annact the factor Area A to Israel
12:41
Speaker 3: and on the ground it's almost like that. Then you
12:44
Speaker 3: have Area B, which as I said, there's over twelve
12:47
Speaker 3: outputs in the outskirts of Palestinian towns and villages and
12:52
Speaker 3: even in recent months, we've seen some changes in the
12:55
Speaker 3: discourse of israel politicians. After our Israeli settler died doing
13:00
Speaker 3: what Palestinians described as a car accident, some settlers claim
13:04
Speaker 3: it was an attack. A settler and his brother were
13:08
Speaker 3: so called touring which for ATV supplied by the government
13:11
Speaker 3: in Area A, near their illegal outpost. This settler died
13:16
Speaker 3: in this accident slash other event, and since then his family,
13:22
Speaker 3: but later also writing politicians have announced this campaign of
13:26
Speaker 3: erasing also abn cs all Israel, it's all ours, just
13:31
Speaker 3: now settlers. After his death, settlers established five settlements in
13:36
Speaker 3: Area B. They related evicted because it was it's where
13:40
Speaker 3: the CNN crew was attacked last month, incident that got
13:45
Speaker 3: a lot of attention in the US.
13:46
Speaker 2: And worldwide and in general.
13:49
Speaker 3: Israeli settlers and the government are trying to erase this
13:53
Speaker 3: separation between the areas and to make sure that even
13:55
Speaker 3: the very symbolic and very small palatine authority that exists
14:01
Speaker 3: will be erased.
14:02
Speaker 1: So what you're describing, I was thinking about this as
14:04
Speaker 1: reading your article on what you're saying. Now, what you're
14:07
Speaker 1: describing really is a push by the Israeli government to
14:11
Speaker 1: seize control of every aspect of what is now Palestine
14:15
Speaker 1: life and the West Bank, make it actually part of
14:17
Speaker 1: israel Is, to stop the charade that it's some kind
14:20
Speaker 1: of other place that can be negotiated, but actually they
14:23
Speaker 1: take it over. And it sounds like so talk a
14:26
Speaker 1: bit about that and what you think the political reality
14:29
Speaker 1: is around that, and what would happen if that actually happens,
14:31
Speaker 1: if they keep this push and they do that and
14:33
Speaker 1: they take over the West Bank completely and build these
14:36
Speaker 1: new settlements.
14:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, so as we look on the map of the settlements,
14:40
Speaker 3: and since the establishment of this extreme government three and
14:43
Speaker 3: a half years ago, we've seen approval of more than
14:46
Speaker 3: one hundred settlements. And if you look on the map,
14:49
Speaker 3: it really fits a the output that we describe in
14:51
Speaker 3: our article, and it really fits smortgage plan to kind
14:56
Speaker 3: of concentrate the Palaestinian and specific areas across the West
14:59
Speaker 3: Bank in the very very small and limited areas, so
15:02
Speaker 3: the settlements are all around them.
15:04
Speaker 2: The official settlements they.
15:05
Speaker 3: Government approve are not all the area A and B,
15:08
Speaker 3: but they're really limiting the movement between Palestinian cities and
15:12
Speaker 3: towns and together with the Israeli checkpoints, roadblocks, metal gates.
15:18
Speaker 3: This really makes it hard for the movement of Palestinians
15:22
Speaker 3: and even any imagination of a Palestinian state. That's of
15:25
Speaker 3: course the official easily planned, but it's always with NATANIAO
15:29
Speaker 3: and its partners.
15:30
Speaker 2: They don't want officially to announce the West Bank. You know,
15:32
Speaker 2: they had the plan in twenty eighteen. This was put
15:35
Speaker 2: outside and they don't want to fully annox the West Bank.
15:39
Speaker 3: They don't want to, of course talk about, you know,
15:41
Speaker 3: one democratic state and to give rights to those Palestinians
15:45
Speaker 3: who they annox. You know, I'm not talking about if
15:48
Speaker 3: they want, if Palaestinians choose it or not. But on
15:50
Speaker 3: the Isral side, of course they're not talking about annexation,
15:54
Speaker 3: even with the limited rights. For example, the Palestinians in
15:57
Speaker 3: East Jerusalem have that they have a residence, a card
16:01
Speaker 3: and they can move freely all across the territory. So
16:04
Speaker 3: of course they're not talking about that. But on the
16:07
Speaker 3: ground they're making changes that even in half a year
16:10
Speaker 3: there will be elections and some less extreme government will
16:14
Speaker 3: be elected. It will be very hard to reverse. Now,
16:17
Speaker 3: of course, everything is changeable, everything can be removed. We've
16:20
Speaker 3: seen it across history. We've seen it also in Israel
16:23
Speaker 3: and Palestine that is engaged from Gaza in two thousand
16:28
Speaker 3: and five. You know before that they withdrawal from South
16:32
Speaker 3: Lebanon and from Sinai desert in Egypt. So things can change,
16:37
Speaker 3: but they're kind of making sure that this will be hard.
16:39
Speaker 3: And from past experience with a center right governments, we
16:45
Speaker 3: see that not so quickly they cancel or reverse decisions
16:51
Speaker 3: by previous governments. It's not so easy for them to
16:53
Speaker 3: do it politically and publicly, and especially when the extreme
16:57
Speaker 3: right and the cent of the West Bank, if they
17:00
Speaker 3: will be on the position, I think they will make
17:02
Speaker 3: it very very hard to reverse anything. So they're creating
17:07
Speaker 3: facts on the ground. And for them, they want to
17:09
Speaker 3: make sure there's no palatine in state. They think Natanio
17:12
Speaker 3: said it in his own voice in recent years, and
17:15
Speaker 3: they want to make sure that no matter what, the
17:18
Speaker 3: West Bank will be under Israeli controlled forever. Yes, correct.
17:24
Speaker 1: I mean so, as I was reading your article and
17:29
Speaker 1: I encourage everybody, we're gonna we're gonna link to it.
17:32
Speaker 1: It really gives very thorough analysis of what's happening on
17:35
Speaker 1: the West Bank, what's happening in the Palatinian villages. I mean,
17:38
Speaker 1: I'm this might be an absurd question, but I ask
17:40
Speaker 1: it anyway. Go ahead, So what do you think the
17:45
Speaker 1: future holds?
17:45
Speaker 3: Then?
17:46
Speaker 1: I mean, if if all the things you wrote about
17:48
Speaker 1: in terms of dismantling Palatinian life, taking over villages, pushing
17:52
Speaker 1: people out, and then often taking taken over by very
17:56
Speaker 1: right wings and also Orthodox settlers moving to take more control,
18:01
Speaker 1: and you've been involved in this and standing up to
18:02
Speaker 1: it as of other israel Is. So what do you
18:05
Speaker 1: think this goes? What do you think the future holds
18:09
Speaker 1: for Israel and the Palestinians if is continuous.
18:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a.
18:13
Speaker 3: Very hard question. And of course, on one hand, from
18:17
Speaker 3: what it looks now, it's very pessimistic. On the other hand,
18:21
Speaker 3: on the ground, they don't manage to push Palestinians out
18:24
Speaker 3: of the West Bank as they want. So after the
18:27
Speaker 3: genocide beginning Gaza, we've seen across the West Bank billboards
18:31
Speaker 3: with a photo from Gaza, one of the famous photo
18:34
Speaker 3: of Palestinians from northern Gaza being forced out into southern
18:39
Speaker 3: Gaza with all their belongings. This motto dot reminds the
18:42
Speaker 3: forty eight Nakaba, and it was written in Arvig there's
18:46
Speaker 3: no future in Palestine. So the settlers maybe answers a
18:50
Speaker 3: bit your previous question. The settlers do see connection between
18:53
Speaker 3: what happened in Gaza and what's happening in the West Bank.
18:56
Speaker 3: And at least a year or two ago, when they
18:59
Speaker 3: still thought they can force Palestinians out of Gaza, that
19:03
Speaker 3: at least from parts of Gods at least from Gaza
19:05
Speaker 3: City and the northern part of Gaza, they fought they
19:08
Speaker 3: can duplicate it to the West Bank. In Gaza, despite
19:12
Speaker 3: the horrific channel side that Israel committed there, they didn't
19:15
Speaker 3: manage with the plan that we wrote also in nine
19:18
Speaker 3: seventy two, it was a governmental plan to push Palaestinians
19:21
Speaker 3: out to Egypt or to other countries. And we've seen
19:24
Speaker 3: many reports about these attempts of Israel by planes by
19:27
Speaker 3: Jordan through Egypt. This failed, and I think also in
19:32
Speaker 3: the West Bank, despite the horrific price Palatinians are paying daily,
19:37
Speaker 3: the big plan is not working. People don't leave. Maybe
19:40
Speaker 3: they're pushed, I hope for a short time, but they're
19:42
Speaker 3: pushed to the big cities and towns and out of
19:45
Speaker 3: the farming area, the grazing area. But the push, but
19:49
Speaker 3: the plan to push them out of the West Bank
19:52
Speaker 3: is not working. And it's important to say that many
19:57
Speaker 3: of the tactics we've seen in Gaza there are army
20:00
Speaker 3: is also implemented in a much smaller scale in the
20:03
Speaker 3: West Bank in the refugee camp in Jenina refugee camp
20:05
Speaker 3: to the current refugee campang Nuwa Sham's refugee camp. After
20:09
Speaker 3: years of pressure from Israeli settlers and Israeli righting politicians,
20:13
Speaker 3: they too over a year ago they forced all the
20:16
Speaker 3: residents out. We're talking about over forty residents that are
20:20
Speaker 3: refugees from forty eight is from the Nakaba and started
20:24
Speaker 3: demolishing houses, open roads, not demolishing all the camp, but
20:28
Speaker 3: making it a place that people cannot leave, at least
20:32
Speaker 3: until they allow them to come back, and demolishing dozens
20:35
Speaker 3: of houses with the excuse of opening new roads and
20:38
Speaker 3: shaping in and same like in Gaza, and same like
20:42
Speaker 3: in the war of Israel against the UN against UNRA
20:45
Speaker 3: also against the refugee camps. They really want to raise
20:49
Speaker 3: the refugee issue, and you could say the Placinian issue
20:53
Speaker 3: in general. But also the fact that so many people
20:56
Speaker 3: in Gaza and in the West Bank a refugees from
20:58
Speaker 3: forty eight.
21:00
Speaker 1: So as you describe in verbally here but also in
21:04
Speaker 1: your rating, when people resist what's happening with Palestines and
21:08
Speaker 1: Israelis have gone in to help Palestine to resist, it's
21:11
Speaker 1: become pretty violent.
21:13
Speaker 2: Yes.
21:13
Speaker 3: So before October seventh, we've seen many protests across the
21:17
Speaker 3: West Bank, you know from the historically of course, but
21:21
Speaker 3: also in recent years against new settlements two decades ago,
21:25
Speaker 3: against the apartheid separation war, for prisoner in solidarity prisoners,
21:32
Speaker 3: for many things. And since October seventh, they is really army,
21:36
Speaker 3: and so the police made it very clear that it's
21:39
Speaker 3: too dangerous to protest that you know, and people will
21:42
Speaker 3: play enormous price. So we haven't seen across the West
21:46
Speaker 3: Bank many protests, but as I said, people find alternative
21:49
Speaker 3: ways to show solidarity. Is if it's with the protective
21:55
Speaker 3: presence being on the ground Israeli international activists, we know
21:59
Speaker 3: they're not. Also published on Plass nine seventeen magazine, how
22:03
Speaker 3: Benkville formed a special unit in the West Bank Police,
22:07
Speaker 3: a police that doesn't function when it comes to killing
22:11
Speaker 3: of Palatinians, attacks against human rights defenders and so on.
22:14
Speaker 2: They have especially unit in the.
22:16
Speaker 3: West Bank Police to locate, arrest and deport international activists.
22:23
Speaker 3: So you know, in their eyes, the problem is not
22:27
Speaker 3: the violence or the human rights relation. It's the fact
22:30
Speaker 3: that people come to witness it, document it, and when
22:32
Speaker 3: they go back also to spread it to the friends, family,
22:35
Speaker 3: and of course whide their community. So we've seen really
22:40
Speaker 3: escalation against activists. We've seen in numerous villages that activists
22:46
Speaker 3: have been present. Twenty four seven army camps issues a
22:49
Speaker 3: close military area that theoretically should also limit settlers from
22:53
Speaker 3: going in and arresting the Palatines, but the facto it's
22:57
Speaker 3: not being enforced on settlers and and just the activists
23:01
Speaker 3: cannot be with the Palatinas. And unfortunately it LEAs in
23:03
Speaker 3: a few cases it forced the Palaestinians to leave because
23:07
Speaker 3: they were left with no protection. So it's an interesting
23:12
Speaker 3: thing to look at how on the ground in very
23:15
Speaker 3: simple and you know, small tools, but the army and
23:19
Speaker 3: the police are assisting those attackers to evict Palestinian communities.
23:25
Speaker 3: And we're talking about the most vulnerable communities. But as
23:27
Speaker 3: you said, people are present in dozens of villages across
23:30
Speaker 3: the wend. Also there's other villages that Palaestinians are organizing
23:35
Speaker 3: two night shift to tours around the village to protect
23:40
Speaker 3: with of course they're not allowed to have any weapons
23:43
Speaker 3: to protect themselves, but with flashlights and cars patrolling around
23:48
Speaker 3: the village being present in the most vulnerable families who
23:53
Speaker 3: live in the outskirts, if they live in a farming,
23:55
Speaker 3: in a farm, if they live in the last houses.
23:58
Speaker 3: So we've seen in and also again that we've seen
24:00
Speaker 3: the army arresting people who are involved in that, demolishing
24:04
Speaker 3: tents that are made to kind of as an outpost
24:07
Speaker 3: or to look were settlerates. But people on the ground
24:10
Speaker 3: are trying to resist in all the methods they have.
24:13
Speaker 1: You said one thing, I'm curious, so Palacinas are not
24:16
Speaker 1: allowed to have weapons of any kind.
24:19
Speaker 3: The Palatino forty and the Palatinia security bodies have weapons
24:24
Speaker 3: in the area A. They're not allowed to travel with
24:27
Speaker 3: the two area.
24:30
Speaker 2: C and B.
24:31
Speaker 3: And you know, of course not they're not allowed to
24:33
Speaker 3: have weapons. But even when they go out to protect
24:36
Speaker 3: themselves from settler rates with stones or sticks, they're being
24:39
Speaker 3: shot and arrested. So We've seen many examples that settlers
24:44
Speaker 3: raid a village, attack it. When people go out, the
24:47
Speaker 3: army comes to assist the settlers and then shoot or
24:50
Speaker 3: arrest Palestinians. So yeah, Palatinians, of course, they're not allowed
24:55
Speaker 3: legally to have weapons. They're not allowed to protect themselves
24:58
Speaker 3: in the most basic tools. Even to go out and
25:01
Speaker 3: to stand in front of a settler who's trying to
25:04
Speaker 3: graze their land or to steal their land, the army
25:07
Speaker 3: might come and say, you're not allowed to block this person.
25:09
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about with a stone or everything, just
25:12
Speaker 3: standing and trying to help the settler, you're not allowed.
25:15
Speaker 3: In many times the army would come and with orders
25:18
Speaker 3: from the settlers, will arrest the Palestinians, saying you blocked him,
25:21
Speaker 3: you'll disturbed him, and many other claims. So yeah, the
25:26
Speaker 3: fact is that Palestinians, and this is I think it's
25:30
Speaker 3: it's the purpose also that they're not safe even in
25:32
Speaker 3: their garden, in their home. This is the reason settlers
25:37
Speaker 3: establish those output so close or sometimes in Palatine communities,
25:41
Speaker 3: invade the communities days after day to kind of tire
25:44
Speaker 3: the people and harass them when trying to make them
25:47
Speaker 3: live in many places people refuse to live despite the
25:50
Speaker 3: high price they pay.
25:52
Speaker 1: Let me just a really cut line here from your article,
25:54
Speaker 1: which will be attaching to so people can really see
25:57
Speaker 1: what's going on, because you've written a really important piece
25:59
Speaker 1: here when you quote smart Rich, one of the right
26:03
Speaker 1: wing leaders of Israeli government, saying, we will erase the lines,
26:07
Speaker 1: the demarcations, the letters, we will settle on land in
26:10
Speaker 1: all its parts, and then you have a local activist
26:13
Speaker 1: saying in response, two years authorities have been closing off
26:16
Speaker 1: the village and tightening control over it as much as possible,
26:19
Speaker 1: the last village remaining in Ramaala area that borders at
26:22
Speaker 1: Jordan Valley, the West Bank's eastern flank, of which Israel
26:25
Speaker 1: is rapidly consolid and control. I mean, it sounds like
26:28
Speaker 1: a nineteen eighty four dystopian nightmare that's taking over in
26:33
Speaker 1: the West Bank. And as an activist, as somebody who's
26:36
Speaker 1: Israeli and standing up to this, I'm curious how you
26:40
Speaker 1: how you maintain your sense of struggle and your optimism
26:44
Speaker 1: in this fight to build a land for all. I mean,
26:47
Speaker 1: and I'll just close. I have this poster in my
26:50
Speaker 1: study at home that I got in nineteen sixty eight.
26:54
Speaker 1: It has a map of all of the Holy Land.
26:57
Speaker 1: It says one state, two people's, three faiths, while the
26:59
Speaker 1: Palacian flag on side, it's really fat on the other,
27:02
Speaker 1: which I think is a dream of some of us,
27:04
Speaker 1: which probably may never happen. So I'm curious, how do
27:07
Speaker 1: you maintain the sense of struggle and standing up to
27:10
Speaker 1: all this?
27:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a good question.
27:13
Speaker 3: You know. One answer that I think about it a
27:17
Speaker 3: lot is that you know, I'm on the ground when
27:19
Speaker 3: I visit those villages, those communities, and you see, you
27:22
Speaker 3: see Palaestinians that you know, I'm privileged. I have a
27:26
Speaker 3: press card, I have Israeli citizenship. You know, of course
27:30
Speaker 3: I can be attacked, I can be harassed. You know,
27:32
Speaker 3: we've seen escalation also against us in recent years. But
27:36
Speaker 3: still we're much much, much, much more safe and protected
27:40
Speaker 3: than the Palestinians on the front line, on those communities,
27:43
Speaker 3: on this town. So when I see them a standing
27:47
Speaker 3: there and insisting of staying despite the all the obstacles,
27:53
Speaker 3: and really they have zero protection, a settler can decide
27:56
Speaker 3: that it comes and opens the outputs in their gardens
28:00
Speaker 3: are we will come, the police will come and might
28:02
Speaker 3: arrest the Palestinian and then these are daily examples. So
28:05
Speaker 3: that gives me a lot of hope. And also, as
28:08
Speaker 3: I mentioned before, when I see the activist, the Platinian
28:11
Speaker 3: is very international that go there and stay there twenty
28:15
Speaker 3: four seven four weeks for months now, because those attacks
28:20
Speaker 3: happen daily. When you stay in a village for every week,
28:25
Speaker 3: when you come often it's just unfortunately, it's a matter
28:28
Speaker 3: of statistic till you will get attacked. It might be severe,
28:31
Speaker 3: it might be something light. But as we show in
28:34
Speaker 3: the article and as we talked, settlers nowadays have no border,
28:38
Speaker 3: no line, no red line, because they get support from
28:42
Speaker 3: the government, army and the police, so they can do
28:44
Speaker 3: almost everything and they will not be held accountable. So
28:48
Speaker 3: when I see those brave activists, when I see those
28:51
Speaker 3: brave families, you know I unfortunately I documented many many
28:56
Speaker 3: communities living and one of them was the community of
29:00
Speaker 3: ras and el Uja near the Jordan Valley that has
29:03
Speaker 3: been there for decades and were forced to leave a
29:05
Speaker 3: community of over one thousand people refuged also from the
29:09
Speaker 3: negative knackup in Israel forty eight and today the settlers
29:14
Speaker 3: made it a kind of a touristic area with the
29:18
Speaker 3: water spring that was used for Palestinians. Now it's like
29:22
Speaker 3: a touristic site for the settlers. So when I talk
29:25
Speaker 3: to them, they said that without the presence of activists there,
29:31
Speaker 3: they wouldn't survive two years and a half of war.
29:35
Speaker 3: They would leave long time ago. So even from the
29:39
Speaker 3: lowest point where somebody has to pack their home and
29:42
Speaker 3: they smelt their home and leave, really a second of
29:46
Speaker 3: third nakaba, you know, the hardest thing you can fallow enough,
29:48
Speaker 3: in my opinion, harder than funerals sometimes or other things.
29:54
Speaker 3: When you hear it from people that it does mean
29:56
Speaker 3: for them that people come and stand with them and
30:00
Speaker 3: and in solidarity. And you know, we're still in contact
30:02
Speaker 3: with many of the families that are had to displaced
30:06
Speaker 3: to other areas. So it does give you some hope,
30:09
Speaker 3: and it does give you hope that one day they
30:11
Speaker 3: will be able to return to their land and to
30:13
Speaker 3: their homes and live in in some kind of peace
30:17
Speaker 3: and in better conditions.
30:19
Speaker 1: So always powerful and interesting to talk to you. I
30:21
Speaker 1: really appreciate the time you took. And we're going to
30:23
Speaker 1: link to the articles people can read it, and we're
30:26
Speaker 1: going to link to your photographs as well, so people
30:28
Speaker 1: can see the work that you do and understand exacly
30:31
Speaker 1: what's going on. And look forward to many more conversations
30:34
Speaker 1: with you over the over the time as we face
30:35
Speaker 1: all this together. And I hope you stay safe. I
30:38
Speaker 1: hope your friends, everybody with you stay safe. And thank
30:41
Speaker 1: you so much for your work in your writing and
30:42
Speaker 1: taking your time to be with us today.
30:44
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you once again.
30:52
Speaker 1: Let me thank orn Zip for joining us today and
30:54
Speaker 1: we'll link to his work, to his photographic work and
30:56
Speaker 1: writing at oran Zip dot net. That's r E n
31:01
Speaker 1: ziv dot net and wlves going to his article that
31:05
Speaker 1: inspired today's conversation. And thanks to David Hebden for in
31:08
Speaker 1: the program today, audio editor receiving Frank for working his magic,
31:11
Speaker 1: whose atte Sawali from producing the Mark Steiner Show and
31:14
Speaker 1: the titles, Keler Rovara for making it all work behind
31:16
Speaker 1: the scenes, and everyone here at the Real News for
31:18
Speaker 1: making this show possible. Please let me know what you
31:21
Speaker 1: thought about what you heard today, what you'd like us
31:23
Speaker 1: to cover. Just write to me at MSS at the
31:27
Speaker 1: Real News dot com and I'll get right back to you.
31:30
Speaker 1: Once again. Thank you to Orange Ze for joining us
31:32
Speaker 1: today and for the work he does. You can see
31:34
Speaker 1: his photography and writing in the links below. So for
31:37
Speaker 1: the crew here at the Real News, I'm Mark Steiner.
31:39
Speaker 1: Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.